1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:03,630 Welcome, everyone. Welcome, Chancellor. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,940 Welcome, Minister. Welcome. Honoured guests. It is a great pleasure to have you all here at St Antony's. 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:17,580 And I will send an apology to the people standing outside in the rain. But you have, I'm afraid Minister attracted a crowd worthy of a rock concert. 4 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:22,650 So thank you so much for coming to talk to us. And we're very pleased to welcome you here. 5 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:30,600 I'm the warden of St Anthony's College, which is the most international college at Oxford University. 6 00:00:31,050 --> 00:00:34,890 Our students and our fellows come from, I think, 78 different countries. 7 00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:39,150 And we have strong links with many parts of the world, including, of course, Germany. 8 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:45,560 This college has always had a very strong relationship with Germany and has welcomed German scholars here over the years. 9 00:00:45,570 --> 00:00:52,049 And many of our students have come from Germany and have gone back to become leading figures in German universities. 10 00:00:52,050 --> 00:00:54,960 The German media. German business. And German politics. 11 00:00:55,230 --> 00:01:00,660 Just last year, we were very pleased to make Dr. Johann Kaka, an honorary fellow of this college, 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,100 strengthening again the links with Germany, of which we are very proud. 13 00:01:05,460 --> 00:01:07,440 It's a great pleasure to have you here today. 14 00:01:07,710 --> 00:01:15,030 And I'm going to ask Dr. Aslan, Ernest Hatzakis, who is the director of the European Studies Centre, to introduce our Chancellor. 15 00:01:22,130 --> 00:01:25,940 Thank you, Margaret. My name is often Mr. Serkis, 16 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:33,200 and I'm the director of the European Studies Centre and on behalf of my colleagues governing body fellows of the European Studies Centre. 17 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:39,230 I would like to welcome you to the 2012 2013 ESI Annual Lecture. 18 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:48,170 The annual lecture is the most prestigious our annual event, and we invite eminent personalities from the academic or the policymaking community. 19 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,090 In the past, we have hosted the Prime Ministers of Britain, Spain, Turkey, 20 00:01:53,510 --> 00:02:00,890 as well as foreign ministers from Germany, Greece and EU senior figures to deliver our keynote lecture this year. 21 00:02:01,070 --> 00:02:11,000 We are very privileged to host as our speaker, Dr. Wolfgang Schauble, the German federal minister of Finance, to deliver his talk on Europe. 22 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:17,570 Still a common vision. Dr. Sobel is a well-known political personality all across the globe. 23 00:02:17,780 --> 00:02:25,670 One of the most prominent politicians in Europe and committed Europeans, and one of the key actors in the current period of the Eurozone crisis. 24 00:02:26,300 --> 00:02:29,330 This is the second time, I believe, as a speaker with our centre. 25 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:33,139 The previous time as leader of the German Christian Democrats, 26 00:02:33,140 --> 00:02:38,750 he delivered one of the annual Konrad Adenauer lectures on why the nation is safe in Europe. 27 00:02:42,050 --> 00:02:47,660 Just a few words, if I may, regarding the European Studies Centre, which was established in 1976. 28 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:53,120 Since then it is dedicated to the interdisciplinary study of Europe, its regions and countries. 29 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:58,040 It is particular strength in politics, history, international relations, 30 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,080 political economy in the field of social sciences and in cooperation with the field of humanities. 31 00:03:03,650 --> 00:03:10,460 The study of Germany has been one of our core subjects and our centre has kept close links with German academic institutions, 32 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:18,950 thinktanks and foundations. As part of Saint Anthony College, we follow the tradition of keeping close links with academia in the policy world, 33 00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:24,530 which we do in the context of research projects, seminar series, research, regional programs, 34 00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:29,720 and lectures on different matters that deal with Europe's internal developments and Europe's role in the world. 35 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:35,960 This term, for example, our core seminar series is dedicated to the European crisis, 36 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,100 which we organised in the form of debates every Tuesday at 5 p.m., 37 00:03:40,610 --> 00:03:47,870 where we discuss the impact of the current crisis in the eurozone from a political, economic, social or political cultural perspectives. 38 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,830 Today, we are also very fortunate to have with us the Chancellor of the University of Oxford, Chris Patten, 39 00:03:55,190 --> 00:04:02,000 the patron of the European Studies Centre, who, as we all know, is somebody who cares deeply about Europe, its present and its future. 40 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:06,770 We are very privileged that our Chancellor, at least once a year, 41 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:13,010 agrees to chair one of our major events and interact with our keynote speakers and our audiences. 42 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:19,370 This year he has very warmly agreed to chair this event and to coordinate our question and answer session. 43 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,720 Before I ask the Chancellor to present the Speaker for tonight, 44 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:29,330 I would like to thank all those who are involved in the organisation of this very prestigious event, 45 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:35,990 and especially Dr. Dorian Singh, who has been the real engine of this year's annual lecture. 46 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,370 Dear colleagues and friends, I hope you will enjoy our annual lecture tonight. 47 00:04:40,820 --> 00:04:44,960 Our Speaker has agreed to talk for approximately 30 minutes. 48 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Then we can open the lecture to questions and answers. The lecture will be video recorded and posted on the web, 49 00:04:53,450 --> 00:04:58,220 but not the question and answer session, which will only a tape recorded and not video any more. 50 00:04:58,730 --> 00:05:19,620 Thank you very much. I do not intend to reintroduce our speaker because he will certainly know who he is, and if he didn't already, he will know. 51 00:05:21,180 --> 00:05:29,100 I would just like to say what a privilege and honour it is for us to welcome you, Minister, 52 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:41,790 to Oxford and to the European Studies Centre at Sundance is St Anthony's is of course, as the warden pointed out, a an academy of serious study. 53 00:05:41,790 --> 00:05:54,570 But even Sundance News will have been surprised to discover the future of the Eurozone is more popular as a subject than a a gig by Bruce Springsteen. 54 00:05:55,530 --> 00:06:08,670 So the importance of what we know you have to say and your own intellectual distinction have ensured that this is a packed house. 55 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:12,240 And everyone here knows that. 56 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:23,220 You, Minister, have been at the centre of some of the most important debates, some of the most important history made in Europe in the last few years. 57 00:06:24,330 --> 00:06:29,969 At the heart of an important debate about the relationship between the defence of civil liberties and the 58 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:39,960 defence of pluralist democracies against violent assault at the centre of the reunification of Germany, 59 00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:46,110 which is one of the certainly most important events in my lifetime, 60 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:55,440 an event that carried through peacefully and with the establishment of a solid democracy. 61 00:06:56,070 --> 00:07:06,780 And today, you're at the very heart of the discussions about how the Eurozone may be saved. 62 00:07:06,780 --> 00:07:14,520 And I noticed you said in a speech last week that the game is far from over. 63 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:20,940 And because of the central importance of that issue, 64 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:30,600 you are also at the heart of the debate about what the European Union will look like and will be in the future. 65 00:07:31,380 --> 00:07:43,080 What is the narrative of the European Union and how it develops in the 21st century relates to our democratic institutions and in Europe. 66 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,390 So we are really honoured, as I said, to have you with us today, 67 00:07:48,720 --> 00:08:00,090 and I'd like to invite you to speak to us and then deal magnificently with the hope to achieve this objective. 68 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:03,600 Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Tamara. 69 00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:15,690 Ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to speak to you today about Europe, maybe to a very few people who could not join this room. 70 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:23,280 Well, listen to first few words and then I will be happy to have talked a little bit of that. 71 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:33,360 But having said this, I would say it's a sign of hope for me that so many young people are so interested in European matters, 72 00:08:34,050 --> 00:08:38,340 even in endless and I take it as a sign of hope. 73 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:47,510 But by the way, few other places would seem as appropriate for a lecture on Europe as Britain's foremost place of learning. 74 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:54,150 Was it not so Winston Churchill, who first sketched the concept of a united Europe? 75 00:08:55,350 --> 00:09:01,800 And where else in the EU today does its uptake of Europe rise as much business as in the UK? 76 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:07,770 Where else does it occupy a similarly privileged place across the national media? 77 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:17,960 There was a time, I was told, when the owner of a celebrated hotel advised his staff not to mention the war to their German guests. 78 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:22,799 Today, Basil Fawlty might well instruct them. 79 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:32,130 Instead, don't mention the euro. Over the centuries, the bonds between European nations have not always been equally strong. 80 00:09:33,270 --> 00:09:37,350 Our relationships have sometimes been warm, sometimes less so. 81 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,220 And the 20th century certainly was no exception in this regard. 82 00:09:42,390 --> 00:09:46,830 But the sense of community between the peoples of Europe always prevailed. 83 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:56,370 During the continent's tumultuous history. Britain and Oxford in particular, often became safe havens for continental refugees. 84 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,760 Periods of crisis on the European continent have often made your country more European. 85 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:11,400 Long lost, perhaps never as. As during the years following the French Revolution and British resilience in the 86 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:16,830 face of totalitarian evil throughout the 20th centuries and its willingness to 87 00:10:16,830 --> 00:10:21,600 permit the immigration of thousands of refugees from the continent made Oxford in 88 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:28,919 the mid-20th century a more European place than it ever been before in Oxford. 89 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,340 We cannot fail to perceive that our past is European. 90 00:10:33,690 --> 00:10:37,320 The question before us is what does this mean for our future? 91 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:47,310 I do not mean to be overly dramatic. We do not face a return to the hostilities that have plagued our nations for centuries. 92 00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:54,060 The media like to describe today's political disagreements between European countries in stark language. 93 00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:58,649 In my view, the debates we have seen over the last two years demonstrate, 94 00:10:58,650 --> 00:11:03,660 if anything, the substance of European integration is reached over the years. 95 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,130 We disagree. We argue. We criticise. 96 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:13,650 But this is how politics works. Within all democracies, 97 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:21,660 we have learned to accept the society's willingness to allow the public consultation over divergent issues is a sign of its health. 98 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:27,900 In the present crisis, we deal with serious issues and with conflicting interests. 99 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,400 We cannot be surprised that oppositions are clearly articulated. 100 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:43,710 What is remarkable is that confrontational and aggressive nationalism is almost entirely limited to very small fringes of European societies. 101 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:53,890 But if it. But if it is the case that Europe is not confronted with a potential return to a political stage between its nations, 102 00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:59,530 it's nevertheless true that we face fundamental and difficult decisions. 103 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,300 These decisions do not only concern the details of the EU budget or the European Stability Mechanism, 104 00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:13,390 important as those are, they are not even just limited to the issue of the common currency. 105 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:19,460 At the most fundamental level. Europe today needs to regain its compass. 106 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,640 It must be clear about its future direction of travel. 107 00:12:25,780 --> 00:12:31,300 My impression is that over the last few years, partly as a result of the financial crisis, 108 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:36,700 differences have emerged over our very idea for the future of European integration. 109 00:12:38,170 --> 00:12:40,690 My view is that agreement on this idea matters. 110 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:48,280 Once we know where we want to go, we can productively and fruitfully disagree on many points of detail. 111 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,920 But if we cannot find common ground on the broad base and be here for the European project, 112 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:01,270 it will be increasingly difficult to come to terms with the practical problems we face on an everyday level. 113 00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:06,370 When European integration began, after the horrors of World War Two, 114 00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:12,940 its political founders were clear that the project was more than the creation of a free trade zone. 115 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:19,880 So we are determined to lay the foundation of an ever closer union amongst the peoples of Europe. 116 00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:26,730 As the Treaty of Rome famously put it, what has today become of this process was. 117 00:13:27,970 --> 00:13:30,220 I see two very different answers. 118 00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:39,010 The first of them looks back to the 60 years of post-war European integration as a story of principle, success and progress. 119 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:48,430 It highlights how, throughout the different phases of the EU's history, many areas of economic, political and social life converts. 120 00:13:49,510 --> 00:13:55,130 People today travel across much of continental Europe without border controls to pay. 121 00:13:55,210 --> 00:13:58,120 They pay in many of these countries with the same currency. 122 00:13:59,830 --> 00:14:07,720 The goods they buy are regulated by competition and environmental laws, many of which apply across the 27 member states of the EU. 123 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:14,770 The award of the Nobel Peace Prize of the EU six recognises the Union's remarkable 124 00:14:14,770 --> 00:14:21,069 achievement in giving our once thought on continent into longest area of peace, 125 00:14:21,070 --> 00:14:27,490 time and co-operation in its turbulent history and making Europe a major world player in its own right. 126 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:36,760 From this point of view, the idea of an ever closer union between European peoples has been the model correctly describing 127 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:41,500 the direction of travel to countries of Europe have taken over the last couple of decades. 128 00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:50,560 In fact, it continues to describe that direction in so far as the Union of the Peoples of Europe remains an unfinished project. 129 00:14:51,970 --> 00:14:59,200 What it was a precise description of its goal. The European Union still moves towards an ever closer union of its member states. 130 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:07,570 Those like myself who share this perception of the European project are by no means blind to the many weaknesses. 131 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:16,360 So takes note, it progresses. We acknowledge that legal standards of citizens across nations have at times been created 132 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,520 by a bureaucracy that often seems remote and detached from the concerns of the people. 133 00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:28,960 Even tough, tough Eurocrats have also become the convenient scapegoat for national politicians 134 00:15:29,470 --> 00:15:34,060 who often bear much of the responsibility for suboptimal decision making. 135 00:15:35,170 --> 00:15:40,479 We recognise that the need to find a compromise solution palatable to all Member States 136 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:46,150 has often turn current political ambitions into petty negotiations about bargains, 137 00:15:46,420 --> 00:15:50,170 subsidies or rebates benefiting individual countries. 138 00:15:50,830 --> 00:15:59,440 We are well aware of the fact that the European project is still and perhaps increasingly detached from the reality of most European citizens. 139 00:16:00,490 --> 00:16:10,000 We have no European public to speak in spite of political institutions that represent Europe's citizens interest in the bargain. 140 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,530 Even basic familiarity with their functioning is not widespread within the EU. 141 00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:21,250 Last but certainly not least, we are faced with a serious monetary crisis which, 142 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,610 if it cannot be contained, threatens to undermine the very idea of European integration. 143 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:34,240 All these difficulties, however, do not mitigate against the general validity of European integration. 144 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,180 Politics, as Bismarck famously remarked, is the art of the possible. 145 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,500 The politicians will always face difficulties in. 146 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:46,280 The project he seeks to accomplish. 147 00:16:47,090 --> 00:16:55,670 He has to accept that what we can achieve will never, ever even come close to what he ideally would have hoped to achieve. 148 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:03,830 This is political reality. Whether we look at the governance of small regions, of nation states or at the European level. 149 00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:10,610 This, in very broad strokes, is one vision of Europe. I believe it's still valid. 150 00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:16,910 And in fact, politically, the most helpful, the most forward looking, the most promising vision we have. 151 00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:26,540 I speak here today to defend this vision and to argue that recent events are misconstrued if taken, 152 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:29,270 to demand the abolition of the goal of European integration. 153 00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:36,860 However, I am fully aware that for some this has ceased to be a realistic objective, at least in the short term. 154 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:47,420 In recent years, there has been across Europe a growing chorus of sceptics who for very different reasons, have lost faith in the European project. 155 00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:53,750 They will look back to the early years after the war, but their story is a very different one. 156 00:17:54,710 --> 00:18:04,460 According to this account, European integration was a good idea as long as it was clearly limited to goals that could realistically be achieved. 157 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:14,390 Creating a single market. For example, opening Europe to the free movement of goods and of people, thus creating a highly competitive free trade zone. 158 00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:19,370 By leaving sovereignty unambiguously with national parliaments and governments. 159 00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:24,800 The project was derailed according to this reading of our history, 160 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:32,540 when European politicians ceased to distinguish the politically desirable from the medically feasible. 161 00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:39,620 The massive complications inevitably arising from the attempted economic and political 162 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:44,300 integration of a growing number of increasingly diverse nation states were ignored. 163 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:51,110 So this theory by those blinded by the grand design of a future, a united Europe. 164 00:18:52,580 --> 00:19:00,799 But has history not taught us that such a design is unlikely to work if there are not been successive historical 165 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:07,580 attempts to overcome the territorial and political diversity of Europe in the interest of its global competitiveness? 166 00:19:07,580 --> 00:19:10,640 And have they not all failed the test of practicability? 167 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:19,129 I'm Charles magnitude Napoleon. That project ended in failure because the peoples of Europe Java's independence 168 00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:23,090 and refused to exchange it for the promised blessings of a European state. 169 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:32,690 It's no coincidence that advocates of this view cite the introduction of the euro as major evidence supporting the theory. 170 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:41,660 After all, the financial crisis has sown doubt about the merits of the European project within the EU and beyond, 171 00:19:42,530 --> 00:19:50,660 and nobody can or would deny that this crisis has exposed the fundamental flaw within the original design of the currency union. 172 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:59,060 We introduced a common currency within a community of nation states that still retain their full but to their sovereignty. 173 00:20:00,110 --> 00:20:10,220 We had a common currency, but no fiscal union, no supranational control over national budgets, and no European regulation of banks. 174 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:15,530 No wonder a serious financial crisis stretched systems to breaking point. 175 00:20:17,570 --> 00:20:25,880 The critics are right, in my view, to warn that European integration can very easily turn from a pragmatic political venture 176 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:33,230 into an ideological project that is pursued without proper regard for its chance of success. 177 00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:44,540 They are also justified in their worries that decisions taken far away from those who are most affected by them easily become abstract and effective. 178 00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:52,100 Ineffective. A fundamental principle of Germany's political and legal system is the principle of subsidiarity. 179 00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:58,430 It demands that decisions must always be taken at the lowest possible level. 180 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:07,340 Don't let the central government decide what can reasonably be decided by local communities or at the regional level. 181 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,410 From our point of view, Europe should stick to the subsidiarity principle. 182 00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:21,200 Its responsibilities should be restricted to those that cannot sensibly be fulfilled at the national or regional or the local level. 183 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:28,100 Vigilance is needed here. But the same is true within many existing, existing nation states. 184 00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:35,030 A tendency needlessly to centralise power is certainly not a special problem of the EU. 185 00:21:36,350 --> 00:21:44,390 I strongly disagree, however, with the claim that any of these shortcomings necessitates a fundamental revision of the aims of the. 186 00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:49,270 European integration. On the contrary, we need integration. 187 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:55,570 In fact, I think we need more integration in order in order to overcome existing problems. 188 00:21:56,770 --> 00:22:01,720 The difficulties a single currency has faced during the financial crisis have not 189 00:22:02,230 --> 00:22:08,470 invalidated the reasons it originally justified its introduction in many ways. 190 00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:16,570 So your has been remarkably successful, given how many of its areas were prematurely put in for it. 191 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:25,270 It continues to exist. Its exchange rate against the dollar, the pound and other major currencies is stable. 192 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,680 Inflation in the eurozone has been low throughout the currency's existence, 193 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:36,700 supposedly lower compared to the inflation rate in terms of deutschmark in Germany. 194 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,980 Nor has the currency union lost any of its members. 195 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,379 If I am not mistaken, 196 00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:52,090 the voices of those predicting this imminent exit of one or more countries from Southern Europe have recently become much quieter. 197 00:22:54,340 --> 00:23:03,660 By the way, the last poll in Germany shows a majority in favour of not leaving Greece, at least not leaving the eurozone. 198 00:23:03,670 --> 00:23:09,010 That is new and in German both. But it has been the fact in the last week. 199 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:17,860 Indeed, the crisis has forced the countries that make up the eurozone to confront the initial shortcomings of the currency union. 200 00:23:18,610 --> 00:23:22,480 And we are in the middle of a successful effort to improve them. 201 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,540 We have introduced bailout mechanisms. We have created the ESM. 202 00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:33,760 We are moving towards a closer coordination of fiscal policies across the Eurozone. 203 00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:38,860 We are on the way to create a stability union for public finances. 204 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:46,330 The Stability and Growth Pact has been strengthened. We introduced the balanced budget rule and the preventive arm. 205 00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:53,680 There is now a much larger focus on debt reduction for members of the eurozone that do not comply. 206 00:23:54,130 --> 00:24:00,280 A sanction mechanism is in place and we made these instruments more credible by 207 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,840 introducing high hurdles for the Council to block a proposal from the Commission. 208 00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:09,280 Not long ago, much of this would have been unthinkable. 209 00:24:10,030 --> 00:24:14,410 Far from undoing the European project, the crisis is helping to advance it. 210 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:20,740 Admittedly, sunglasses is not over and no one knows what challenges might lie ahead. 211 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:29,170 But I would predict that when Europe emerges from the crisis, it will emerge stronger and more unified than before. 212 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:38,470 It will not only have retained its common currency, but will have improved existing mechanisms to protect it and make it work. 213 00:24:39,670 --> 00:24:47,590 Why is this happening? I think the fundamental answer is that Europeans are working to protect the cargo state of European integration, 214 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:55,870 including the common currency, because they recognise that it is both them and continues to bring them enormous benefits. 215 00:24:57,490 --> 00:25:05,470 Lincoln famously, famously said that you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time. 216 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:11,290 But you cannot fool all the people all the time. Even at the height of the crisis. 217 00:25:11,950 --> 00:25:15,250 Support for the Europeans economy was still at 80%. 218 00:25:16,210 --> 00:25:21,490 To say, I am convinced, is fundamentally the case across the eurozone and there is a reason for this. 219 00:25:22,690 --> 00:25:30,760 Businesses in the Eurozone countries enjoy a huge market with 330 million consumers in 17 countries. 220 00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:35,290 40% of German exports, for example, go to the Eurozone. 221 00:25:35,770 --> 00:25:40,840 But perhaps more importantly, of exports, it leaves the currency area. 222 00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:44,470 60% are denominated in euros. 223 00:25:45,410 --> 00:25:54,190 This is the advantage of operating with the major currency, and especially small and medium sized companies are perfectly aware of it. 224 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,860 So also there are also indications that the common currency is good for growth. 225 00:26:00,970 --> 00:26:07,150 A McKinsey study earlier this year found that being a member of the eurozone increased the 226 00:26:07,150 --> 00:26:17,890 Finnish GDP by 6.7% in 20 2020 to the German GDP by 6.6 and the Austrian GDP by 7.8%. 227 00:26:19,390 --> 00:26:24,820 Contrary to what its opponents claim, the major steps of European unification, 228 00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:30,970 including the introduction of the EU, are not driven by wishful thinking or by ideology. 229 00:26:31,670 --> 00:26:37,540 Process be as a result of pragmatic considerations of negotiations and of 230 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:41,320 compromises between governments acting in the best interests of their people. 231 00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:53,610 One can always, with the benefit of hindsight, speculate whether one or the other decision was perfect or should have been taken differently. 232 00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:02,490 Once again, I cannot see how European politics is different in this regard from any other area of political decision making. 233 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,970 Most European countries agree that European integration is their best chance 234 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:14,670 to compete economically and politically in an increasingly globalised world. 235 00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:20,880 Another popular concern is the alleged goal of a European superstate. 236 00:27:22,590 --> 00:27:28,650 Let me posit you, however, said on this account, a difference of principle does not exist. 237 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:38,520 It is true that people have occasionally used the phrase of the United States of Europe in an affirmative sensible since NAFTA. 238 00:27:38,550 --> 00:27:50,040 I never adopted it myself, but formulations about the establishment of a European state is a policy goal nobody serious seriously envisages. 239 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:57,600 It has always been the principle of European integration, since the sovereignty of the nation state remains fundamental. 240 00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:04,950 Given how deeply entrenched this pretty principle is in many constitutional and political traditions all over Europe, 241 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,930 I cannot see how anyone would in earnest plan to move beyond it. 242 00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:18,060 All European agreements are technically pacts between sovereign nation states that are and remains the ultimate political subjects. 243 00:28:19,290 --> 00:28:23,040 What is the origin of this subject of suspicion? 244 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,650 I believe it's due to the singular character of the EU as an institution. 245 00:28:29,550 --> 00:28:34,800 It's neither a mere alliance of nations for a nisra nor a federal state. 246 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:44,669 Member States have ceded sovereignty to it. And I might add, this has been necessary and more may be necessary to understand. 247 00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:56,940 The EU needs to think he mentioned imaginatively and accept that it is a sui generis entity trying to classify eternity into categories like federal, 248 00:28:56,940 --> 00:29:01,620 state. The common market between individuals and nation states is not helpful. 249 00:29:02,850 --> 00:29:03,719 Historically, 250 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:12,900 national sovereignty has been a cherished principle of European statehood is not sends a demand to cede sovereignty to a supranational body, 251 00:29:13,290 --> 00:29:16,860 ultimately tantamount to the creation of a European nation state. 252 00:29:18,330 --> 00:29:25,649 Calling crowds who for many years thought as while the university has succinctly, succinctly explained the situation, 253 00:29:25,650 --> 00:29:32,050 he argues that there is no contradiction between the essence of identity and European integration. 254 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:41,610 The alternative to Europe, to European integration, he writes, is not a return to national sovereignty, but a submission to global economics. 255 00:29:42,030 --> 00:29:49,710 Economies dominated, dominated by the networks of other states over which Europe has no influence in other worlds. 256 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,860 And I could not agree more with growth, 257 00:29:53,550 --> 00:30:02,760 which clouds those who oppose European interest of their national independence will find that other forces in our globalised market economy, 258 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:09,990 which are formal, dictatorial because they know of no voting mechanisms that allow vetoes, 259 00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:17,820 its effort to cite growth to gain Europe, it ultimately secures our national autonomy. 260 00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:24,420 While it agrees that much of the opposition of Europe's political integration is based on misconceptions. 261 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:33,210 I would like to reiterate that a certain amount of scepticism towards European institutions is perfectly justified. 262 00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:39,180 A tendency to centralise power exists, and it operates without proper control. 263 00:30:39,550 --> 00:30:45,630 It's dangerous. Ceding power to Brussels is not ad hoc. 264 00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:54,180 Olympics scenario. Some opponents of European integration perceived, but neither it is a means that in itself moves the European project forward. 265 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,870 It must be linked to real reform of European institutions so as to guarantee that 266 00:31:00,870 --> 00:31:05,730 powers are exercised judiciously and in accordance with democratic principles. 267 00:31:06,970 --> 00:31:13,830 This would suit, in my view, includes the introduction of more democratic participation of the electorate across Europe. 268 00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:18,690 If there is more power, there must be more accountability. 269 00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:26,730 One important element of such democratisation of Europe could be the election by popular vote of the President of the European Commission. 270 00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:36,540 It would give a face to the political unification of Europe, and I would allow the successful candidate to build real power. 271 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,470 I am aware, of course, that this is not going to happen tomorrow. 272 00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:47,790 More immediate plans, however. Concerned Party European list for election to the European Parliament. 273 00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:55,140 Plans for this have been drawn up. There'll be some that can be introduced in time for the next election in 2014. 274 00:31:57,540 --> 00:32:03,510 Perhaps you will allow me to add at this point a few words about the UK as part of the European Union. 275 00:32:04,590 --> 00:32:07,379 I'm fully aware that Britain, more than other European countries, 276 00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:13,470 is currently going through a process of reflection about its relationship with its European partners. 277 00:32:14,190 --> 00:32:19,380 I understand respect that this is a discussion that must primarily take place in Britain. 278 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:26,040 However, the United Kingdom has also been part of the European Community since 1973. 279 00:32:26,820 --> 00:32:32,460 Most major European developments since then have benefited from its British participation, 280 00:32:33,510 --> 00:32:38,110 meaning leading figures in European institutions have been bridges. 281 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:47,730 Someone is sitting close to me. So we, fellow Europeans, have our own vested interest in the future of the UK and the EU. 282 00:32:48,690 --> 00:32:54,929 Let me say first of all, that I understand the changes in the British situation within the EU have partly happened simply 283 00:32:54,930 --> 00:33:02,490 because of the increased importance the group of €17 members has taken on in the course of the crisis, 284 00:33:03,420 --> 00:33:08,250 as the EU members outside the common currency have experienced a similar development. 285 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,580 But undesired mistaken the sceptical voices have been become particularly strong here. 286 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:22,620 Fundamental doubts about the wisdom of European integration and especially the common currency, appeared to dominate the national debate. 287 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:31,860 The option of a referendum about Britain's future in Europe does no longer seem far fetched and whatever else results may affect of such a referendum. 288 00:33:32,430 --> 00:33:38,430 Even the fact that it is seriously considered is indicative of a growing tide of Euroscepticism. 289 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,440 I would like to make three brief comments about Britain and Europe. 290 00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:47,310 My first is that Europe needs the United Kingdom. 291 00:33:48,380 --> 00:33:51,540 So there are various reasons why it is the case. 292 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,800 Britain is one of Europe's strongest, most innovative economies. 293 00:33:56,370 --> 00:34:02,190 London is the financial capital of Europe. So Britain, Europe is connected with the English speaking world. 294 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:07,710 I could easily extensive list that would prefer to make a somewhat different point. 295 00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:18,839 I have been speaking here today about visions for Europe. Europe needs a vision if it is going to have a future, we need fundamental agreement. 296 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,300 But it's also important to have an ongoing and political debates about about the best way forward. 297 00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:28,710 It's only such a competition of ideas that secure our success. 298 00:34:29,610 --> 00:34:34,410 In my view, the British voice is sorely needed in this competition of ideas. 299 00:34:35,370 --> 00:34:42,520 It may seem facile today to bring up this country's long and successful story of democracy in Parliament that isn't doing. 300 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:47,519 Not other countries, but I know have long established democratic cultures to do, 301 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,870 but within European approaches to political as well as economic ideas. 302 00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:55,530 Britain still often represents its own special way. 303 00:34:56,210 --> 00:35:02,040 I firmly believe Europe would be poor without this input in to our debates. 304 00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:08,700 Britain should retain and regain a place at the centre of Europe because this will be good for the European Union. 305 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:16,020 My second commend is that Europe is also good for Britain. The nation is still safe in the EU. 306 00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:24,690 I fear this is not always fully recognised. Recognised. Some in the British media prefer to think of Europe as a major burden. 307 00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:34,830 Perhaps it's something our two countries have in common. However, in one side of a complex truth and arguably less than that. 308 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:43,020 About two months ago, the Polish Foreign Minister, Sikorski, gave the Blenheim Palace speech only a few miles from here. 309 00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:50,280 In his speech, he enumerated no fewer than eight British myths about the European Union. 310 00:35:51,210 --> 00:35:59,190 They ranged from the misleading claims that British trade with other parts of the world is more important than its European trade. 311 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,620 Too often cited prejudices about European institutions and the impact on Britain. 312 00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:11,850 And to the rather specific complaint that allegedly new proposals for EU pesticides 313 00:36:11,850 --> 00:36:16,260 legislation would ban gardeners from using coffee grounds to tackle snacks. 314 00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:21,959 The letter is a good example for the surprising willingness of parts of the media in 315 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,330 Britain and elsewhere to invent incriminating claims against the European Union. 316 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:35,310 But it also shows that a large proportion of the population are ready to believe such claims, regardless of their factual basis. 317 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,250 More important things out Miss is, however, the cross key points out. 318 00:36:41,610 --> 00:36:48,530 Points out as if. Hard facts that make EU members attractive for the UK like holding out. 319 00:36:48,530 --> 00:36:55,370 She argues that the freedom gained by leaving is wiped out by the resulting loss of influence on the global level. 320 00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:01,940 Ultimately, the EU is beneficial to the UK both economically and politically. 321 00:37:03,740 --> 00:37:07,910 In my said commons, therefore I said we should try to work this out together. 322 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,980 The British people will have to come to a considered view about its future in Europe. 323 00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:18,020 I am convinced that when all is said and done they will come to the pragmatic conclusion. 324 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:24,740 Then it is in their own best interest to stay in, be part of and influence the European project. 325 00:37:25,550 --> 00:37:30,500 After all, this is why the United Kingdom decided to join in 1973. 326 00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:38,960 Let's be optimistic and observe. The 40th anniversary of this momentous decision in the more recent history of your country will 327 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:45,200 coincide with a renewed commitment to the ideals of an ever closer union of the European peoples. 328 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:53,870 Equally important, however, is that everybody in Europe needs to keep thinking about the future shape of our economic and political union. 329 00:37:54,890 --> 00:38:04,370 The noise created by the currency crisis has distracted us from this task, but it has also made it clear how urgent that the occasion is. 330 00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:13,370 Isotopes that when we sit down for a full discussion of our visions for Europe's future, Britain will play a vital part in those debates. 331 00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:22,430 Germany, at any rate, is fully committed to a common future in Europe and will do all it takes to make it a success. 332 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:30,530 One of the great institutions of British culture is obituary in today the UK has become 333 00:38:30,530 --> 00:38:36,440 the leading market for updates on the euro and on European integration more generally. 334 00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:45,380 Reading a certain pink paper, I note that even Germans, always eager to export, has started catering to the business. 335 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:52,070 Let me end this lecture by saying to all involved, I am convinced this is not a sustainable business model. 336 00:38:52,400 --> 00:39:24,840 Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed, Minister, for that extremely interesting and entertaining speech you mentioned, which was, I think, 337 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:34,810 quite flattering to this country that you thought we were at present going through a period of reflection about your relationship with him. 338 00:39:36,540 --> 00:39:45,629 I wonder if I could just exercise my divided chancellor by posing a couple of questions 339 00:39:45,630 --> 00:39:51,380 at the outset and then opening the discussion to the to the lecture theatre. 340 00:39:52,470 --> 00:40:06,660 And the first question which we reflect on is this When the euro was being sold to the German electorate, 341 00:40:07,890 --> 00:40:14,910 one of the arguments for it was that it would promote greater convergence between Europe's economies. 342 00:40:16,410 --> 00:40:26,040 And we know what happened. Far from greater convergence, there was greater divergence with, I think, in the first ten, 343 00:40:26,220 --> 00:40:40,230 ten years or so of the euro and the prices of domestically produced goods in Germany going up 9% in Greece, 67% in Spain and Portugal, over 50%. 344 00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:55,220 In Italy, over 40%. And now presumably the objective is to promote that convergence, which we didn't see before as rapidly as possible. 345 00:40:55,980 --> 00:41:02,370 And while not assuming that the markets will only be satisfied when there is perfect convergence, 346 00:41:02,850 --> 00:41:15,300 plainly there is somewhere between where we are now and where we would like to be for a full convergence which will satisfy the markets, 347 00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:19,590 but in some way off. And in the interim, 348 00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:35,010 German taxpayers and Dutch and Finns and others are presumably going to have to bail out the weaker economies for the lack of convergence. 349 00:41:36,330 --> 00:41:43,139 How long do you think that can last and how long do you think governments in the weaker 350 00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:50,790 economies can persuade their electorates to go on with their policies of austerity, 351 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:56,040 which are already creating in some countries, increasing extremism in politics? 352 00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:11,740 You are? You are right in mentioning. Of course I agreed. 353 00:42:14,070 --> 00:42:22,590 That when we created the other one, we'd tried to convince what was not an easy task, 354 00:42:22,590 --> 00:42:28,170 intoned his cousin, as you may remind that it would be the right decision. 355 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:37,890 One argument was increasing greater convergence, and I think this was the very reason of a lot of political leaders in other member states as well. 356 00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:55,800 And by the way, one of the in my understanding, one of the major reasons of the crisis is that they forgot that they have a common currency, 357 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,440 increases the pressure on productivity and competitiveness. 358 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,980 They have, of course, if it would work, it would enhance the greater contrast. 359 00:43:09,570 --> 00:43:17,840 But it doesn't work because they figured they enjoyed low interest rates and they want that to to increase and to work on competitors. 360 00:43:17,850 --> 00:43:31,440 Therefore, any program which we agreed for Member States with to assistance by the European Facility of Financing Facility 361 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:42,209 Mechanism that you have therefore now is m and not only to adopt measures for correcting the fiscal policy, 362 00:43:42,210 --> 00:43:47,340 but also for have to go for structural reforms to enhance competitiveness productivity. 363 00:43:47,340 --> 00:43:50,340 That is because without this it will not work. 364 00:43:51,570 --> 00:44:02,670 By the way, if the best example of a common currency make pressure on on competitiveness is the history of the German reunification. 365 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:13,170 If you if you remember that the of the former GDR was in early statistics so far my my respect 366 00:44:13,170 --> 00:44:19,739 for statistics and economists was number 11 in the world after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 367 00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:28,709 Number 11 better when reintroduced on behalf of the strong desire of the population in the GDR, the Dutch, 368 00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:34,440 the Deutschmark and the currency from the Federal Republic in the GDR on the 1st of July, 369 00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:42,030 all industrial production of GDR was not competitive, was over to the end as well. 370 00:44:42,990 --> 00:44:48,600 And this totally has not been taken by by a lot of our member states. 371 00:44:49,350 --> 00:44:53,100 So therefore we have to work on this. 372 00:44:53,790 --> 00:45:02,459 It's true. You see, I am answering your question. 373 00:45:02,460 --> 00:45:08,820 How long you'll be able to stay in convincing the German public that it we have to pay? 374 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:18,870 My argument for German public is the most advantage is for Germany because it's a competitive relative competitive. 375 00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:23,640 Member states enjoy a common currency as I have. 376 00:45:23,850 --> 00:45:26,490 Therefore, it's in the very best interests of Germany. 377 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:39,450 To defend the common government is a good argument and we are not without any success in the non European members in the non successful member states. 378 00:45:43,850 --> 00:45:54,620 It's a little bit different. I think some member states have really understood, I think the actual the Monti government of Italy is really understood, 379 00:45:55,100 --> 00:46:01,460 as everybody knows very well better than most people in Europe what is needed for a competitive economy. 380 00:46:02,310 --> 00:46:09,450 And is a chance to fight for Italy, too, to increase its position in productivity and competitiveness. 381 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,360 The new Spanish government does. The Irish government, Ireland does. 382 00:46:16,050 --> 00:46:21,090 Portugal. The New Spain is. The new Prodigy's government is telling the public. 383 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:29,490 The Prime Minister has said publicly he would not be interested in lower interest because as soon as interest rates in Portugal go down, 384 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,370 they will not achieve decisions on reforms like the reforms they need to do in principle. 385 00:46:35,850 --> 00:46:42,719 If you look at the debt, my argument was public opinion and now you can judge yourself how long it will be. 386 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:45,540 I have to answer your question. 387 00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:59,820 But if you look at the developments in the globalised world, and sometimes even for Europeans, it's very helpful to look on the world outside. 388 00:47:02,370 --> 00:47:11,219 You see how how fast, how fast there are changes and how strong the pressure on competitiveness is ongoing. 389 00:47:11,220 --> 00:47:11,670 Ongoing. 390 00:47:13,110 --> 00:47:24,360 If we will not deliver in the what is needed in Europe, we will fail in the in the global market even even sooner, even faster than in Europe. 391 00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:36,330 Therefore, I have to tell this to surveillance in member states which suffer a lot of problems that they need needed in their very own interests. 392 00:47:36,330 --> 00:47:40,440 And of course, we have to help them to overcome. 393 00:47:40,770 --> 00:47:46,079 How long will it work? I will not give an answer in the concrete figure of of years. 394 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,200 It would not be a good idea for a finance minister. 395 00:47:50,580 --> 00:48:02,920 But as long as we can tell them we are making progress, I think we we have a good chance that to to to be successful. 396 00:48:03,090 --> 00:48:14,730 If you look at even the outcome of elections, look at the last elections in an autonomous region like Galicia in Spain. 397 00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:18,540 A good outcome, totally. 398 00:48:18,540 --> 00:48:23,800 In contrast to the to the to the pictures we got in TV from demonstrations in 399 00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:29,780 Spain to the regional election in both was of support for the Rajoy government. 400 00:48:30,300 --> 00:48:35,640 I am quite optimistic what's going on in Italy. If you look at Greece, it's quite interesting. 401 00:48:36,210 --> 00:48:49,840 I think it was in my opinion, it was a very critical decision to go for new elections in March after the election in March. 402 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:57,420 They were not able to build a government which could stick to to even to negotiations, to what is needed for a new program for Greece. 403 00:48:57,990 --> 00:49:01,130 Then they had to go for another two new elections. 404 00:49:01,140 --> 00:49:11,040 It was a a source of future contagion for other EU member states, by the way, part of the second new elections in June. 405 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:18,870 So they got a good government which was able to and it's it's more engaged and more reliable. 406 00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:23,910 What does it mean? And more open than any government before. 407 00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:35,880 In the last year for if it's not I think publications to understand it's critical but it may be like of course we have to come to come 408 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:46,730 forward step by step and we have to use the momentum of the crisis because we will get substantial changes in Europe which we only get. 409 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:54,000 And that is not new and European is the only in times of crisis and therefore there is a chance to get advantage. 410 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:02,490 But up to now we can manage it. Even look at look at the result of the last election, the Netherlands. 411 00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:08,450 Otherwise, you have a lot of both incentives. 412 00:50:09,780 --> 00:50:13,109 Just may I ask you one other shorter question, 413 00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:24,599 which is part of the British reflection and those of us who are regarded by the 414 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:33,629 right wing populist press as being complete euro fanatics do worry about one issue, 415 00:50:33,630 --> 00:50:44,820 which is this plainly, it is hugely in this country's interest that the eurozone crisis is satisfactorily resolved. 416 00:50:46,020 --> 00:50:49,770 It would make a lot of difference to our own economic prospects. 417 00:50:51,720 --> 00:51:01,530 We worry that the only way that that crisis can be resolved through the establishment of a fiscal union. 418 00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:12,050 Would involve changes in the European Union, which would be extremely difficult for this country to accept, 419 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:21,080 for example, ceding power over the budget in some of its particulars to Brussels or to an official in Brussels. 420 00:51:21,830 --> 00:51:24,710 Difficult to imagine the assembly, as you know, 421 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:35,750 and taking kindly to being told what to do with their budget or their taxes by a Finnish commission that I suppose stranger things have happened. 422 00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:42,680 But in this country it will go right to the heart of our national narrative about 423 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:49,730 the relationship between democracy and voting supply and determining tax and spend. 424 00:51:50,540 --> 00:52:01,279 So the worry that we have is that resolving the euro crisis satisfactorily creates a European Union, 425 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:06,320 which we would have a lot of difficulty persuading our democracy to be part of. 426 00:52:07,460 --> 00:52:21,870 Do you have any words that will comforters on that particular point as may be? 427 00:52:22,550 --> 00:52:30,080 It's a problem. But in the last couple of years in this crisis, during the crisis, 428 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:41,479 we have carefully had in mind that we want to not want to widen the gap between the 72 members of 429 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,730 the government indefinitely as a monetary union and as a ten member states of the European Union. 430 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:57,680 When we when we decided to give some examples, when we decided in early 2010 to go for a fund run by a task force, 431 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,799 what was, by the way, under the presidency was a fun, 432 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:12,110 fun, fun run by the finance ministers of the member states to make proposals for what can be used to strengthen the it was a noble task was worth 27. 433 00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:20,300 The European finance ministers of the Czech Republic was represented not by the fact it was about 27 European ministers, 434 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:27,680 not only 17th we had and the British finance minister to take part in all discussions. 435 00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:33,260 We did not say we want to do it to when we made the fiscal compact. 436 00:53:35,940 --> 00:53:41,190 Which, by the way, we would have preferred to have as an amendment of civility, 437 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:48,389 a limited amendment not needed for a convention the European countries would have not. 438 00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:54,180 That has been already discussed with Parliament and Commission and even the French president, 439 00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:59,700 who was not in favour from the very beginning of a new of a new amendment of the treaty, 440 00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:02,159 because he had taken a major risk, 441 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:09,090 Nicolas Sarkozy had taken a major risk in campaigning for the presidency when he said he will not go for another referendum. 442 00:54:10,140 --> 00:54:13,469 And both opponents have said, yes, 443 00:54:13,470 --> 00:54:19,379 we will go for another vote and we wouldn't have the Lisbon Treaty result another level with another referendum in France, by the way. 444 00:54:19,380 --> 00:54:30,120 Therefore, I could understand why Nicolas Sarkozy was so reluctant to do a treaty amendment is that it is in my political lifetime, never again. 445 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:31,890 And then he agreed, Yes, we will go. 446 00:54:34,050 --> 00:54:46,140 And then the prize the British government asked was not and it was not acceptable, by the way, and therefore we had to go in a non in other ways. 447 00:54:46,770 --> 00:55:01,379 By the way, 25 member states signed and as soon as as the time of President Klaus will be ended, even the Czech Republic will sign. 448 00:55:01,380 --> 00:55:05,580 Then you are the only member state who will not part of the fiscal treaty. 449 00:55:05,580 --> 00:55:09,600 Therefore, this question is a question to the UK as well. 450 00:55:10,620 --> 00:55:23,880 But I think the most the most is the argument for too few British people which are not pro-European to a few. 451 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,990 The most argument is that the eurozone is not well functioning to better resource the eurozone, 452 00:55:31,650 --> 00:55:36,059 the more convincing that will, I hope there will be even more. But as discussed. 453 00:55:36,060 --> 00:55:40,170 And so we will do whatever but but what is needed. 454 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,040 But it was impossible not to buy it and to get. But of course you are. 455 00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:52,860 You are right. There is a dilemma. Strengthening the euro will build requests, some progress. 456 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:59,760 And I am optimistic that at the end Europe will be stronger than before because of crisis. 457 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:07,350 But of supporters have been always realistic, pragmatic and very wise. 458 00:56:08,220 --> 00:56:13,610 But we trust in the wisdom of the Polish people. Yeah. 459 00:56:13,770 --> 00:56:14,520 So you.