1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:02,520 They can take decisions, 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,130 but the decisions that can then be challenged in the EFTA court and the court decides on this on the basis of international law. 3 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:19,350 So it functions in this relation as an international tribunal under Republic International Law, giving binding decisions that bind the two states. 4 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:32,520 In addition to this, we have there is a set up which is equivalent to the preliminary ruling system within the Court of Justice. 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:40,530 But in that aspect, there is no obligation on national courts in the after countries to refer cases to the after court. 6 00:00:40,530 --> 00:00:48,930 So it's not like in the EU, the courts of Los Angeles have an obligation to refer cases and the judgements by the appellate 7 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,580 court are only advisory to the national courts and not binding on the national courts. 8 00:00:54,030 --> 00:01:02,090 So the national courts of the two states have the same status within the EEA as the Court of Justice actually has. 9 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:09,450 It's a different type of status. And also when it comes to including new rules, 10 00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:20,550 there is the EEA joint committee where the European Commission is represented and representing the EU side, 11 00:01:21,270 --> 00:01:26,099 and the EFTA Standing Committee is representing the EFTA side so that there are two 12 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:31,559 votes in this and decisions have to be taken by agreement between the two sides. 13 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:40,410 So there's no new EU rules are introduced into the EEA without an agreement between the two parties. 14 00:01:42,090 --> 00:01:51,150 So this then preserves the legislative sovereignty of the two countries in a formal sense, there are some challenges to this. 15 00:01:51,840 --> 00:02:03,510 One is, of course, if new rules are not taken on board, then the rules of the single market are unravelled and the other party, 16 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:07,770 as the agreement mutually says, which means the EU may take protectionist measures. 17 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:20,459 So. So if the EEA agreement is not kept up to date with the developments in the EU through certain aspects of the internal market, 18 00:02:20,460 --> 00:02:27,000 rules may be taken out completely of the agreement. So let's say that a new banking directive is not introduced into the agreement. 19 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:37,830 Free movement of banking services may be removed from the and from the corporation from the market until this then it might be settled. 20 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:48,510 It is also a matter of the national authorities to implement the EU decisions international law. 21 00:02:48,510 --> 00:02:52,040 So this is still as yeah. 22 00:02:52,710 --> 00:02:56,570 As in any international treaty and not a supranational chief. 23 00:02:56,580 --> 00:03:03,840 It's up to the national legislature to, to do this. But if this, if this is not done, 24 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:13,409 then the EFTA surveillance authority may raise issues on the on the implementation of treaties of 25 00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:20,400 obligations that have been undertaken by agreeing to take on board new rules in the joint committee. 26 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:28,799 And this is, of course, then the question and the thorny question of dynamic homogeneity, 27 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:37,740 because it is not sufficient only to have the same rules at one time, but the rules must develop in line with the development in the EU. 28 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:46,610 Maybe we should go through the next one. And this goes over then to the options. 29 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:51,550 Okay. Thanks very much. You didn't say this about the Supreme Court. 30 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,720 Maybe you should say that the ECJ first before we go on to. 31 00:03:56,660 --> 00:03:58,520 Yes. Yes, it's a slightly, 32 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:05,540 but that's a slightly different topic because that that is on the assessment of the agreement that the UK will be able to achieve. 33 00:04:06,410 --> 00:04:14,540 Okay, let's, let's see what we have done and try to discuss in the book is these types of possible options. 34 00:04:16,070 --> 00:04:22,430 So in terms of of this and here, of course, what we do is, is that on the one hand, 35 00:04:22,430 --> 00:04:27,260 you have a formal understatement that the next company, whether they like it or somebody, 36 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:35,990 is basically dismissing this no way option or and nobody has to, of course, outright embrace that, even if there are some people supporting it. 37 00:04:37,010 --> 00:04:45,889 And then you have these other three now nuclear option and I can speak a mixed is to some extent what 38 00:04:45,890 --> 00:04:50,090 has been the says you could very often have because we will have a different combination anyway. 39 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:59,120 But of course it matters a lot where you have this pick and mix and this is precisely what we have been saying, that this you have no guarantee. 40 00:04:59,210 --> 00:05:04,580 I mean, you cannot choose yourself that you will set the boundaries for this option. 41 00:05:04,580 --> 00:05:10,400 Plus what could be mean for instance the customs union that the both internal market and. 42 00:05:12,350 --> 00:05:15,800 Midas could be without that. But it's also other possibilities. It is. 43 00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:22,390 And then this last one, which we thought was very important, to bring in us the most likely one, that's what we think, too. 44 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,440 That's what we think, too, that there would be a gap between form of connectedness, 45 00:05:28,490 --> 00:05:31,790 maybe even some of the formal arrangements and the reality on the ground. 46 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:40,400 And of course, you have more evidence given with this up the mobile enough facility in Switzerland where the Swiss are formally speaking, 47 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:46,830 making their own legislation and so on. But in practice, this has been battered to the EU incompatibility. 48 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:54,679 Well, this is what they've been doing since 1984. So they are checking because they had the networks with EU officials earlier especially. 49 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:01,969 So they knew and they were interacting very closely. So there was a high level of trust also between Swiss officials and EU officials with 50 00:06:01,970 --> 00:06:05,720 a justification of the EU and for the fact that this has become more difficult. 51 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:12,080 And also the fact that they have to keep updating the agreements in Switzerland has made that option very unattractive for the EU. 52 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:18,980 And there was a report that was leaked somebody was talking about saying that the EU's definitely ruling that out. 53 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,049 I wonder if I may interrupt you and ask you whether you're making a distinction 54 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:31,220 between Norway model and the Norwegian option who are exactly one and the same? 55 00:06:31,910 --> 00:06:33,650 At this point, I think we're thinking about the same. 56 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:44,239 I don't think we make any distinction on this side in that sense that I and you can put this question because also it's a good point, 57 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,550 because we could say that there is no such thing as the Norwegian model, 58 00:06:48,590 --> 00:06:49,430 strictly speaking, 59 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:58,440 because this also mediates so that the Norway option would probably be one specifically tailor made and maybe want to make that kind of distinction. 60 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:06,980 We're talking about not the option for Norway, but the option for the UK and that would be the option which is adopted. 61 00:07:07,130 --> 00:07:10,860 Yes, like no way out of the model. I can see that in. Yeah. 62 00:07:11,330 --> 00:07:19,100 And that is an important distinction, you know, because the practice also will develop itself and could also diverge considerably from the formula. 63 00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:24,080 And also model has this kind of holistic connotation. 64 00:07:24,410 --> 00:07:27,680 So even if you in the book, you can use it interchangeably. 65 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,560 I mean, I think that as soon as you can go in one place to be more, it makes more sense. 66 00:07:33,710 --> 00:07:36,830 That's really that option. Is that you okay? 67 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:44,850 If we had tried to say something about possible lessons. The back model. 68 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:51,140 I think the most important thing is the predictability. And this is also. 69 00:07:52,230 --> 00:07:57,200 This is what you get, which is the situation. I'm going to say that's power of it. 70 00:07:57,450 --> 00:08:11,370 Don't touch the air. And they are very concerned about Brexit also starting to spin out of control because that also is not really so. 71 00:08:12,570 --> 00:08:16,770 But but it certainly emphasises the triangular structure. 72 00:08:16,770 --> 00:08:21,760 So it emphasises this whole the state sovereignty and national democracy like that's the type of story. 73 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:33,270 Maybe we can say something about the court their cautious in comparison with with Switzerland which have the same rules on some of the aspects, 74 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:42,479 mainly on goods, but also on the, on the free movement of persons and on establishment of physical persons because of the free movement of persons, 75 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,350 but not on legal persons, not on corporations. 76 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:55,200 And that is that's a lesson to Norway, is that in order to have the Court of Justice to interpret these rules, 77 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:02,250 which are identical in their formulation to the rules in the EU treaties and in the secondary legislation, 78 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:06,060 in order for the Court then to interpret them identically. 79 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:11,220 You need the institutional settings, the institutional build up that the has. 80 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:22,440 So the Court of Justice has said in the EU context that because of the institutional setting and because of the aims of the EEA, 81 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:28,860 these rules are interpreted identically to the way the Court of Justice interprets the rules within the EU, 82 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:40,379 whereas in Switzerland, in the Swiss case, they have interpreted the same rules differently in line with the so-called Polydor Jurisprudence, 83 00:09:40,380 --> 00:09:43,650 which originally split back to the free trade agreement with Portugal, 84 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:55,200 where they said that since the and the institutional setting and since the aims of the agreement is less than the single market, 85 00:09:56,070 --> 00:10:01,800 there is no guarantee for an identical interpretation of the likely world rules. 86 00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:09,270 So I think that's a that's a major and important lesson also to take away from the EEA as compared to free trade agreements. 87 00:10:11,570 --> 00:10:14,510 And of course, treaty changes also will post checks. 88 00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:20,780 As you have been writing about, treaty changes will also automatically be used to changes in the area of the envelope, 89 00:10:20,780 --> 00:10:23,120 automatically also feed into this agreement. 90 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:30,020 So that's also something that the states themselves, under this agreement will offer, will influence all of the treaty changes. 91 00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:38,180 But what if you also don't look at practice? I'm pretty sure that this went because we've heard this. 92 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,460 People don't know about what the EEA agreement is in many cases, of course, that you know. 93 00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:48,680 So the only way in which to have assurance is that it is associated with being inside the EU. 94 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:59,030 Then there's no problem. So but, but the moment people start thinking and wondering, is this relevant or not, it's becoming much more complicated. 95 00:10:59,030 --> 00:11:02,990 So this is this is a perceptual issue, a practical issue people will be facing. 96 00:11:03,410 --> 00:11:09,350 It's not a legal issue as such, but it has to do with how we are actually being treated by all kinds of different actors across Europe, 97 00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:15,139 whether they understand you as being part of this or not. So so the behaviour component, 98 00:11:15,140 --> 00:11:22,340 I don't think we should underestimate this because Europe is very complicated and has very large variations in terms of the competence people have, 99 00:11:22,610 --> 00:11:33,320 in terms of the framework. Now what we have been discussing in the book also is that in way that the whole issue of EU membership is depoliticised, 100 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:40,940 that basically also facilitates the ongoing adaptation process because you take away some of the political heat, 101 00:11:41,330 --> 00:11:44,629 you can bracket that because the system would have gone into stealth, 102 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:49,740 otherwise it would not have been able to deal with this issue if they were continuously banding head, 103 00:11:50,060 --> 00:11:52,370 banging each other's head on the issue of membership. 104 00:11:52,430 --> 00:11:59,330 That's why they reacted to that and went along with adaptation and have had this work of the process now. 105 00:12:00,020 --> 00:12:07,850 So the question is, is this a necessary requirement? And this is a question for the UK is is the politicisation of this a necessary requirement 106 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:14,090 or is it something that can still function when the situation is much more politicised? 107 00:12:14,090 --> 00:12:22,430 So if it is so that the de-politicize aspect is a requirement, will the UK be able to ever live under those type of circumstance? 108 00:12:24,070 --> 00:12:27,160 That was one. The second one is. 109 00:12:29,020 --> 00:12:32,230 The other thing that that I think. 110 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:46,169 Don't upon us, especially when writing this book, because it matters how states are relating to the fundamental aspects of the whole debate of Brexit. 111 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:50,640 One is the mode of social associational affiliation that has been dominating the debate. 112 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:57,150 I think equally important, we think equally important is how the state is actually dealing with this relationship. 113 00:12:57,420 --> 00:13:00,680 And that also has to do with the knowledge of the EU or the notion of the EU, 114 00:13:00,990 --> 00:13:08,040 what it is totally programming or whether it is affecting settling talks or so on, but still leaving quite a lot of wiggle room for states. 115 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:15,330 And I think this is something that in retrospect, the earlier work I did didn't pay enough attention to this. 116 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:27,090 So this. So so this is a question that comes in about the therefore, the ideological or the socio economic model involved in this. 117 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:36,150 But that is important. That also goes over to Brexit, that Norway is relatively speaking much further left than the UK is. 118 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,890 And there's no party in Norway that is really on par with the Tories in the UK. 119 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:50,450 It's perilous. So so that the dynamics are therefore very different in terms of design. 120 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,950 And that also means that the EU has not undermine the welfare state. 121 00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:00,120 And I'm saying that because this was a very important consideration and in the referendum in 94, 122 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:05,120 the elected via the studies, opinion polls, the study of the results of the referendum. 123 00:14:05,130 --> 00:14:14,070 So it wasn't cultural difference that meant that Norway took a different choice than that in Sweden and Finland because the margins were fairly small. 124 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,559 It was mainly of a significant majority of women and public sector workers who voted against 125 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,060 the EU membership for socio economic reasons because they wanted to protect the public sector, 126 00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:29,340 the state presence and the generous welfare state and gender equality progressive policies. 127 00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:32,909 That was a fundamental aspect of people's voting choice. 128 00:14:32,910 --> 00:14:42,990 They were afraid that the EU was becoming a neoliberal juggernaut in 94, so that was much more of a consideration in Norway. 129 00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:48,210 There were regional dimensions too, but I think if you look at the numbers, this was a fundamentally important one. 130 00:14:48,940 --> 00:15:00,030 So so but but I don't think this the deepest fears have actually panned out because what it has retained very much of this governments have, 131 00:15:00,030 --> 00:15:06,570 of course, had the right to these types of propositions so but haven't undermined the social in the states process. 132 00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:11,700 You've changed over time not been weakened states presence has changed from a significant role in 133 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:17,760 accumulation to a much more only fundamental role in social protection and welfare and health. 134 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:28,050 So that when you say the states role in society has changed, but its significance in terms of buffering compensate because that's not far away. 135 00:15:29,050 --> 00:15:32,100 Maybe the trade unions and all of these issues of this conference, 136 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,240 they are because of also of course large scale migration and so on can be undermined 137 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,810 this unless you have assurance that you have similar types of salaries and so on. 138 00:15:40,170 --> 00:15:43,559 And the ice is coming up because we're talking about large numbers and so on. 139 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:44,790 So yes, this is coming up. 140 00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:51,830 But then up until recently at least, there was may not be that much for some, but a lot of these things have become more place for banks. 141 00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:57,440 And the question to the U.K. is, would you do the same? 142 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:04,100 And will there be one UK decision or multiple decision making from Scotland yesterday 143 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,840 morning that was exactly on the same wavelength on the lot of these types of issues. 144 00:16:09,860 --> 00:16:14,690 So there are different voices also inside the UK on this and. 145 00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:21,050 Okay, this third one that we are mentioning in the book, but probably could have taken up more. 146 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:31,309 But but no we have to basically was faced with a choice once Sweden joining the EU as to 147 00:16:31,310 --> 00:16:36,650 whether it wanted to have an open border or whether it wanted to have a border with Sweden, 148 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:37,900 this border controls the votes. 149 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:47,470 So it has to be inclusive in shape, which means that when we from Norway are going to enter the EU via the UK, we have to exchange. 150 00:16:49,010 --> 00:16:53,030 So because we are inside the internal border with responsibility for border controls. 151 00:16:53,450 --> 00:17:00,860 Part of the reason was because it would have undermined the Nordic passport, which was has done it before in the feasibility in the Nordic region. 152 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,720 So there is a political importance in maintaining this open border. 153 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:12,720 It's not with the same stakes as the Northern Ireland one. But we have also faced this type of issue afterwards. 154 00:17:12,850 --> 00:17:18,899 It is under this society, of course, this a very large trade begins to sweep those. 155 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:24,760 Some of the people are going through the very vast numbers of places. 156 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:30,000 Something like this because it's. Because the difference is the. 157 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:35,690 Of the. Something quickly on. 158 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,660 Different books. I think we are mentioning this also. 159 00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:45,530 The book could be somewhere so far with the withdrawal agreement. 160 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:51,469 We've seen since somewhat different logics being played out that the EU has been operating 161 00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:57,920 with no chance of establishing procedures and getting trying to ensure compliance. 162 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,410 This of course, has to do with information, but it also has to do with the. 163 00:18:06,190 --> 00:18:12,220 The EU itself and the UK started to. Pursue the bargaining element. 164 00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:17,230 And of course, the fact that they are legally programmed also matters. 165 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:22,230 And on this one, yes, this is also a very important point, 166 00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:27,780 which many people don't know that the original easement that was agreed between the 167 00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:33,870 EU and the other countries was rejected by the Court of Justice for legal reasons. 168 00:18:33,870 --> 00:18:43,590 And this will be the same here, too, that the Court of Justice will have to approve the agreement that is reached between the UK and the EU. 169 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:53,280 And the EU is restricted because they are acting within the competences of uh of the agreement. 170 00:18:53,280 --> 00:19:01,439 So the final word will be whether the agreement is in accordance with the competences and the substantive rules of the treaty. 171 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,060 And that final word will be said by the Court of Justice and not by the negotiators. 172 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:19,140 Okay. What we also have and I'm not going to say much, we are also trying to say something about the possible effects on the key aspects of Brexit. 173 00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:28,950 So we have were discussing political scenarios. Basically the assumption is that the effects will be quite significant regardless of which one, 174 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:31,620 but they would be different under two different types of scenarios. 175 00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:41,000 And even the second one, that's what is a third one scares a lot of people because it will upset the balance quite significantly within the EEA. 176 00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:48,140 And also we think that the UK would politicise this consensual unanimity provisions and so on, 177 00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:55,200 making it very difficult to raise this so you could actually chase and it could also generate a lot of pressure and the 178 00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:00,689 other ones would also be done with the pressure for renegotiating and this could also generate other kinds of pressure. 179 00:20:00,690 --> 00:20:14,010 So under all these scenarios, it is likely to see that there would be loose and a lot of uncertainty and so on and different dynamics based. 180 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:22,240 So we have a lot of guns in the book, but we're not going to go through that now. 181 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:28,970 We'll just say something. Just just leave this now and I'll just leave it for the discussion. 182 00:20:29,050 --> 00:20:36,550 Thank you. Thank you very much. And before we go to discussions, I have one security question. 183 00:20:36,550 --> 00:20:41,100 Whose bank it is? Okay, that's fine. 184 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,990 I mean, not for this session, but for the next one. Okay. 185 00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:57,310 And we have two questions to kick off the discussion, Matthew and Kalypso, who would like to to start first. 186 00:20:57,370 --> 00:21:00,370 Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And thank you, John. 187 00:21:00,370 --> 00:21:03,129 Eric. And that's bad for presenting. 188 00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:10,660 And also many congratulations on what is a really timely and very relevant and very vital piece of scholarly work. 189 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:17,260 So much of what has been written about Brexit since the Brexit referendum has been on the referendum itself. 190 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:27,159 Right. You know what UK last how you know whether it's sort of exposed this sort of dislocation to Westminster in the population and 191 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:33,970 actually any recently the experts are beginning to grapple with what is arguably far more complicated and pressing problem. 192 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:40,660 And exactly what will a post-Brexit Britain butterfly, exactly what will the relationship with the EU be? 193 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:45,910 So I think it's it's very symptomatic of this new and welcome phase in academic inquiry. 194 00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:57,849 I think another reason why this is a very important piece of work is that it tackles the tendency that you see the in some academic research and 195 00:21:57,850 --> 00:22:06,220 within policymaking circles to treat European integration very narrowly as a process synonymous only with the European Union and its members. 196 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:15,730 And actually, by focusing on the multiple outsiders and the multiple ways that these outsiders interact with the EU. 197 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:23,260 Actually, what the book is doing is, is revealing your integration to be a very complex and a very most multifaceted process. 198 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:27,670 Right, that goes beyond the geographic borders of the European Union. 199 00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:35,030 And that's not trivial because, you know, it allows us to begin to understand how the EU deals with this neighbourhood. 200 00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:38,590 So fantastic. I'm completely on board with these sorts of things. 201 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:51,130 What I want to do is, I suppose to spend a few minutes imposing a group of three broader questions that I hope will encourage some discussion. 202 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:56,680 The first is the legalistic take on Brexit, and I suppose I turn to you here and better, but more than anything, 203 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:05,230 can you make the point quite forcefully in the book that the EU sees itself first and foremost as a legal body? 204 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:12,520 And you say and you said in a nation that the Court of Justice will have the final say and 205 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:19,930 that the EU uses very clear legal preferences and guidelines to guide external relations. 206 00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:25,510 And of course so far Brexit, so many attacks, and that a large extent has been a case in point. 207 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,370 I do wonder whether, particularly in terms of the book, 208 00:23:30,370 --> 00:23:39,220 whether it might have been useful to bring politics slightly more into the UK, into the discussion, 209 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,360 or at the very least to question for a moment, 210 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:51,760 if nothing more quite how indivisible or dogmatic the EU's treaty commitments, the single market freedoms actually are. 211 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:58,540 You know, you mentioned the pick and mix option. It's always striking, I think, that we hear so much about the UK's red lines. 212 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:03,009 What about the EU's red lines? I think, you know, you could go deeper. 213 00:24:03,010 --> 00:24:06,850 The EU is not a one size fits all organisation. 214 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:13,090 The whole of its history essentially has been about flexing and the rules to, you know, 215 00:24:13,090 --> 00:24:22,720 where there is a political imperative to do, say, the EU cherry picks the the EEA agreement is an example of cherry picking. 216 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,480 I suppose if I want to put that in terms of a question as opposed to sort of various comments, 217 00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:34,610 quite how far is the EU and by that I mean collectively, but also the various different institutions. 218 00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:38,679 Because what's what was interesting about your piece is know the Court of Justice is going to come along, 219 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,590 but I haven't read much at the moment about how the Commission is working with the council and how the council, 220 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,390 you know, it's going to try and sort of is it going to have an effect on the court? 221 00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:58,440 So how does the EU collectively in the individual institutions, how far is are these individuals prepared to go beyond the legal remit? 222 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,940 Remit, and I may be politically elastic, I think is the phrase that I've achieved. 223 00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:14,770 Second point, the image that come across very clear in the presentation and similarly clear in the book is that the Norway model is a mess. 224 00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:20,349 So his message, they say, and of course, it's governed by multiple agreements, as you said. 225 00:25:20,350 --> 00:25:29,500 And there's a there's a dichotomy in there as well, because the agreement doesn't oblige active states to to take on new EU legislation. 226 00:25:29,710 --> 00:25:35,050 But they they do basically. I want to push you on one this deal sort of scenario. 227 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:42,670 Option three, you know if the UK does become a member of the EEA, you said the EEA, the UK will criticise the EEA. 228 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:43,900 How would you say that? 229 00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:52,780 You talked in the book, you didn't mention partition, but the third pillar and I just wonder how that would work if the UK were to come into it. 230 00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:57,520 What extent might the UK weaken the EEA beyond politicising it? 231 00:25:57,820 --> 00:26:05,260 And I think this is a very, very important point, not only in terms of if the UK were to become a permanent member of the EEA, 232 00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:08,610 but actually I think what is becoming increasingly likely, 233 00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:18,310 certainly something that's been discussed in the UK and Brussels is if the UK fits the use the EEA framework to extend its transition period. 234 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,130 So that would be that would be something I'd be interested to hear. 235 00:26:21,470 --> 00:26:28,420 Then final point very brief and I'll finish on this concerns EFTA after is a is an issue that's very close to my heart. 236 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:35,410 And because I'm just I'm in the early stages of writing in my book on, on the history and politics of the European Free Trade Association. 237 00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:38,190 And of course, the book very rightly is about the EEA. 238 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:46,150 But I'm just encourage you just below, if I may, to, to for you to sort of push the EEA aside for a second and ask, 239 00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:54,069 you know, the UK was a founding member of the Avacta since it left, it's done pretty well. 240 00:26:54,070 --> 00:27:04,540 It's got, you know, 30 odd free trade agreements would be countries is currently negotiating still others with big countries India Brazil. 241 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:12,760 I wonder whether you could discuss the Norwegian experience of EFTA and in in relation to Britain. 242 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,920 Would the Brits be allowed back into after hi? How might that affect the organisation? 243 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:26,770 I say this because when I was at the archives, which are a very weird sort of in a weird dungeon under the headquarters of After Control, you know, 244 00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:33,879 and last year I have myself showed around the building and the after building the 245 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,190 headquarters in Geneva is seven floors high and it now only occupies the one floor. 246 00:27:39,850 --> 00:27:45,669 And so I was given a whole floor to myself to, to, to research, which was very surreal. 247 00:27:45,670 --> 00:27:53,590 I don't do you hear door slamming? I'm not sure if it's the ghost of a British former, you know, Secretary Chambers or something. 248 00:27:53,590 --> 00:28:02,470 But one of the Secretariat officials said to me, well, if the Brits rejoin, they can have the other six floors. 249 00:28:03,670 --> 00:28:05,889 And, you know, is it due to half joking? Of course. 250 00:28:05,890 --> 00:28:13,720 So I you know, I just wonder, how will it affect the organisation regardless of whether or not there is a relationship afterwards. 251 00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:18,340 But yeah, I'll leave it there. Thanks again. It was a pleasure to be thinking about you. 252 00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:21,460 I think, you know, you made the headline. 253 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:24,970 The first good news coming out of Brexit is to get those floor. 254 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,240 Yeah, well, they've taken back control. 255 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:33,910 Right now there is an option to say no, which is over. 256 00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:40,810 Great news because the rest my British RAF 15 countries have to agree. 257 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,980 So they only have one collective vote in the EU committee. 258 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,790 So all the three countries have to agree that they want to accept the UK. 259 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:52,629 If one of them refuses, it has consequences also for the two others. 260 00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:57,340 And that's also a political aspect which restrains the use of this. 261 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:06,780 Now, if, uh, if the after says no to take on board UK, there is no right to retaliation for the EU. 262 00:29:07,210 --> 00:29:15,220 They can't retaliate, but they can enact what is called protective measures in the agreement, 263 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:20,020 which means then that they have a right to suspend the affected parts of the agreement. 264 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:26,530 Nobody knows what is the affected part of the agreement, so we don't know the other ways. 265 00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:29,310 That's not retaliation. I mean, it's the equivalent. Well, 266 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:35,979 it's it's to maintain the balance because if you have a free circulation of goods and goods from one of 267 00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:41,830 the contract parties are under different conditions then the goods from the other part of the agreement, 268 00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:46,150 then there will be an imbalance in the market. So that's the that's the logic behind it. 269 00:29:47,950 --> 00:29:53,019 The other consequence or the other difference is that the national courts have the last say, 270 00:29:53,020 --> 00:29:58,659 and that has been exercised by the Supreme Court of Norway. There are instances where the Supreme Court of Norway said, no, 271 00:29:58,660 --> 00:30:04,310 we don't agree with you have to court on this issue and we maintain our interpretation. 272 00:30:04,450 --> 00:30:06,249 It has had no consequences. 273 00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:11,140 There have been discussions of whether the up to civilians authority should sue Norway on this, but they haven't done that. 274 00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:16,060 So that is but it's also very minor. Not another. 275 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:25,110 Uh, but the main difference is on the substance, and that goes to your question and also several others. 276 00:30:25,140 --> 00:30:30,340 What is sort of the how can we envisage a e a minus or a Norway minus? 277 00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:33,750 And I would say that Liechtenstein is important. 278 00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:42,440 Uh, of course, the political reasons why this time got the exceptions for free movement of persons are different to the UK, 279 00:30:42,450 --> 00:30:47,350 but what it shows is that it is possible, it is feasible to have, uh, 280 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:53,700 less or to have quite major exceptions within the free movement, the full freedoms. 281 00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:57,690 Uh, and that's, that's a political issue. 282 00:30:57,780 --> 00:31:00,990 It's not a legal issue which Lichtenstein shows. 283 00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:05,910 Uh, Denmark even has exemption from investment in summer houses within the EU. 284 00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:11,700 I mean, so there are, uh, on the matter of substance, how far to stretch the feet, the four freedoms. 285 00:31:12,210 --> 00:31:14,310 I think the Court of Justice will not interfere. 286 00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:23,040 What they will interfere in is on the matter of institutional integrity and on the matter of rule of law, protection of rights. 287 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,980 So if the if the Court of Justice is dissatisfied with the agreement from this aspect, 288 00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:34,540 they will they will be attacking, but they won't they won't interfere in the substance. 289 00:31:34,540 --> 00:31:37,230 So there could be, uh, quite large. 290 00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:51,950 I mean, one could accommodate the red line on immigration, I think, without upsetting the, uh, the legal, uh, build up of the single market, uh, 291 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,380 the cost of not having a customs union and the both Sweden of it is the case where VAT is the catchword, 292 00:31:58,380 --> 00:32:08,130 that there is an all commerce between, between Norway and the EU. 293 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:16,710 Uh, VAT has to be deducted with exports from the EU and has to be imposed again. 294 00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:20,549 There is no harmonisation of the VAT. That's the main difference. 295 00:32:20,550 --> 00:32:30,050 I think in the main cost, which is an administrative burden, both on on the on the administration and on the. 296 00:32:30,930 --> 00:32:38,880 Market actors, of course, because they have to pay this extra cost of processing the VAT that I think is the main cost. 297 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,430 What about what does it do to border management? 298 00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:48,720 Because in the Northern Ireland debate, customs union always comes up as saying we don't have a customs union, we have to have a border. 299 00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:56,220 Now VAT can be can be pulled and without having a physical border and it mostly is. 300 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:05,520 So we have you know, there are some official border crossings where if you want to process VAT and customs, you can you cross the bridge. 301 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:12,329 You're allowed to cross anywhere if you do and you try to evade the customs. 302 00:33:12,330 --> 00:33:15,360 If it's a third country goods, then of course it's a crime. 303 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,870 It's a criminal offence that you're using. So the point is that there are spot checks and there are checks. 304 00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:27,580 Yeah. And there are spots. And most of this stuff is truth. 305 00:33:27,810 --> 00:33:36,210 Most of it's done in front of us. So on customs union, just to stone that point forward, it really means that the debate in the UK, 306 00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:44,850 everybody's obsession with being in the customs union because of Northern Ireland is been is not founded because it really matters a single market. 307 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,870 Yes. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I put this together. 308 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,580 No, but that's what's fascinating. And because you proved that we can we can say this deductively. 309 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:59,040 But the Norway case shows that the head of the customs in the parliamentary question 310 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:06,060 actually said it's going to cost UK something in excess of £2 billion to do actually. 311 00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:10,680 So that incorporated pocketed they did with the customs said restrictions. 312 00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:15,930 They can choose to do it that way. Yeah. 313 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,750 Yeah. No, it's I mean, I also can't get my head around the customs union without the single market. 314 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:25,430 I mean, I don't understand that. So I think it's the opposite view. 315 00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:29,009 You know, the internal market is split. But Thomas, 316 00:34:29,010 --> 00:34:36,210 this of course for the UK not being inside the customs union is is a much more problematic aspect because 317 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:44,159 the extent to which you have foreign components being put into products like Japanese automakers and so on, 318 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,250 they want guarantees from the UK government that is quite different in the UK to Norway 319 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:55,880 because most of the goods coming out of Norway are our resources originating in Norway. 320 00:34:55,890 --> 00:35:01,530 So you don't of course you do have the problems of the customs goods, but it's a different magnitude than the UK, a significant. 321 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,890 So in that sense for the UK it's much more important. 322 00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:11,630 The Norway Plus with customs union is much more important for the UK than for Norway and the other EU states. 323 00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:16,110 But if you take a look at the single market, there would be no free circulation of the Irish border. 324 00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:19,830 No. I mean so the customs union doesn't help. Mm. Yeah. 325 00:35:19,830 --> 00:35:24,770 So it's, it's the opposite as you were saying. And so yeah. 326 00:35:25,260 --> 00:35:32,909 On trust, I think one of the interesting things I mean with doing this work on this about trust and what he's showing is, 327 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:36,570 is that in Norway that there is a difference between. 328 00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:43,870 The full moon arrangements and conquest of Houston and reality. 329 00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:48,580 But people still trust the system now. Part of that also has to do with some reality. 330 00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:55,510 And that, of course, got something you don't find. So about two aspects of this. If you want to have the voting for the person, you must. 331 00:35:55,870 --> 00:36:04,120 In addition, you have the stomach security you get from the understanding that the principles and the quality configuration itself. 332 00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:12,280 And this is what the nation state writes on, you know, in terms of people being familiar with this, the federal system, such this cost. 333 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,690 So if you at the same time have a state that actually delivers, I think that magnifies this effect. 334 00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:22,630 But the reality can be quite out of sync with these concepts we have about solving democracy and so on. 335 00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:28,690 And that's what you see. But the question is, where is the record and where when do you reach it, you know? 336 00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:30,970 So for now, we haven't reached that. 337 00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:38,860 But of course things are being in more flux and it's more uncertainty for the EU or for staff in the office if it doesn't have a justified 338 00:36:38,980 --> 00:36:48,760 or kind of a story to what people are saying and that that everybody will actually comply with because it's a bit of an experiment. 339 00:36:48,850 --> 00:36:55,780 So the justification problem, probably an experiment is much more is the challenge is much bigger than that at this point. 340 00:36:55,780 --> 00:37:02,499 It's our system. So so the EU's thoughts on this from the opposite angle is therefore much more difficult because you have to 341 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:11,860 develop both systemic security and the type of trustful from delivering and operating from the place of people. 342 00:37:11,860 --> 00:37:18,190 So for instance, there were a lot of very good questions in fisheries we didn't touch. 343 00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:23,649 I mean, just keep in mind that Iceland is also going to be part of this and Newcastle's 344 00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:27,460 honestly we know with Iceland on fisheries I don't think it's going to be easy. 345 00:37:27,790 --> 00:37:35,800 And part of the first scenario we had above no probably will mean that we will have to renegotiate the entire framework of fisheries management. 346 00:37:35,890 --> 00:37:40,780 Some would even accept that the UK takes regains its fishing rights. 347 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:43,870 But you have to see your fishing rights in the EU and enjoying the EU. 348 00:37:44,590 --> 00:37:50,920 But I'd like to say one thing, because it's a challenge for us to be more explicit in our conclusions. 349 00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:55,870 We haven't really discussed this, but I think we are quite explicit in the last paragraph. 350 00:37:58,210 --> 00:38:03,500 Yeah, there's one big part and I think what that says, at least from my point of view, I don't know whether you agree, 351 00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:11,430 is that a soft Brexit is impossible and the only viable options are a hard Brexit or a remain in moment. 352 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:20,200 But I, I think that you can have a sneaky solution because what I'm suggesting is a wager on the sneaky solution. 353 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:27,040 I think you will have a Potemkin village more than that, actually a firm commitment by the UK to do something. 354 00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:32,740 So I think though in a sense I think we are more in line because I think they will let slide into 355 00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:37,900 some kind of a suspended animation or something that is not something that deliberately alters. 356 00:38:38,260 --> 00:38:43,450 And I'm and we are not advocating that because of the issues that we have experienced. 357 00:38:43,450 --> 00:38:47,410 So but but it is also like the EEA itself for Norway, 358 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:54,010 it was intended to be an interim agreement and it has just continued and continued and and mushroomed and so on. 359 00:38:54,010 --> 00:39:00,700 So so that's the there is some sort of there is a resilience of the path dependency or that one should not 360 00:39:00,850 --> 00:39:07,150 underestimate in the in terms of of getting in a situation where you have opposites that are incompatible. 361 00:39:07,620 --> 00:39:12,640 You asked about the conversation aspects of the thing in Norway is that they reckon, as I said, 362 00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:20,530 the members of this so that that makes it easier to continue with the adaptation without if the membership issue had come up like the 363 00:39:20,530 --> 00:39:27,580 Tories are wanting to do in the UK opening up this actually then you would have had the politicisation of specific issues all the time, 364 00:39:27,850 --> 00:39:30,969 the question of membership and what it entails and so on. The sovereignty becomes law. 365 00:39:30,970 --> 00:39:34,300 This will automatically have been feeding the agenda. 366 00:39:34,660 --> 00:39:43,420 This is what they have changed in Norway. So the argument we make in the book is that this actually facilitates this process because people know that, 367 00:39:43,420 --> 00:39:47,799 Oh, we're not going to be discussing membership now. So we just talk about the cumulative effect. 368 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,940 Those is that we've also ignored the way as the Great Transforming Society. 369 00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:57,420 But also keep in mind when I said this about Norway being more or less the socio economic model, we have, 370 00:39:57,430 --> 00:40:03,910 of course a more comprehensive economic model than the EU, but you also aspires to that and that's different from Tories. 371 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,190 And so there's, there's also some element of, of congruency in the underlying interests. 372 00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:14,079 And so that should not be underestimated because so far the EU has not been such a 373 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:19,360 fundamental affronts to any of the things that we have done to make up the illusion. 374 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,439 And I don't close this discussion, 375 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:33,579 so I suggest that we move it to the common realm of some to the garden in the event we can then get a drink that otherwise there is a 376 00:40:33,580 --> 00:40:42,760 drink I think upstairs no outside but the wherever we will continue and the list listed five and then maybe in different contexts. 377 00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:50,709 I myself come from 2 to 2 pieces which I wrote from my year in Legal Studies. 378 00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:55,690 Has Peter convinced me that the only people who will Aaron on breakfast are 379 00:40:55,690 --> 00:41:02,470 lawyers and convince me that there's nothing like politically no trial law. 380 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:09,010 So with this opportunity. Strict conclusions for those who have low degrees. 381 00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:11,770 I invite you to read. Thank you very much to.