1 00:00:01,380 --> 00:00:12,150 So there's this idea that free movement is especially important for young Europeans and definitive of who they are and what they care about, 2 00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:22,590 and that's an idea that I think pretty much we take on board as well and discover with our polling and interviews in this project. 3 00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:36,270 But how true do you think it is that free movement is somehow unique to the generation of Europeans who are currently in the teens and 20s? 4 00:00:36,270 --> 00:00:45,480 It's been very clear how valuable freedom of movement is for Europeans in general and for young Europeans in particular. 5 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:55,840 And one of the reasons why it's so important for young Europeans is that it actually is a condition for the main formative experience. 6 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:03,900 So as opposed to other generations that identify formative historical moments such as the fall of the Berlin Wall. 7 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:11,140 This generation doesn't really have a comparable moment, as we saw in the first episode of this podcast. 8 00:01:11,140 --> 00:01:15,140 But what we have is a defining experience. 9 00:01:15,140 --> 00:01:25,540 I find this idea quite provocative, that free movement might be to young Europeans what the fall of the Berlin Wall was to a previous generation. 10 00:01:25,540 --> 00:01:29,560 I don't know what to think about that yet. What do you think about it? 11 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:38,210 Well, first of all, I think that it's. Interesting that one of the most important formative moments for one generation 12 00:01:38,210 --> 00:01:44,510 is something to do with a wall that used to divide Europe and then falls, 13 00:01:44,510 --> 00:01:53,870 and then the uniting experience in the following generation is precisely freedom to move. 14 00:01:53,870 --> 00:02:06,560 So I think, again, this goes to show how freedom, liberty is so fundamental to our values in modern day Europe. 15 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,570 It's obviously a fundamental value at the core of the European Union. 16 00:02:11,570 --> 00:02:16,490 And I think it's very interesting that it's reflected in the formative moments 17 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:23,780 of the generations that have lived during the life of the European Union. 18 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:35,270 I don't know. What do you think of that? This question of how free movement links up with freedom and liberty is really tricky. 19 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:40,820 And I'm not sure there is a simple way to really get that relationship. 20 00:02:40,820 --> 00:02:49,160 But I do think that behind all of our poll results and all of our interviews, 21 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:55,230 that relationship probably is one that hangs behind many of our findings. 22 00:02:55,230 --> 00:03:04,590 And I think looking at free movement as a formative experience is one way of trying to understand what's going on. 23 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:18,940 For young Europeans and. Whether it's a desire for freedom that leads them to really cherish certain rights and habits or whether it's a 24 00:03:18,940 --> 00:03:27,880 set of historical changes that makes free movement as well as freedom a kind of practise the democratic practise. 25 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:37,940 And yeah, I think it's it's an open question that this episode opens up, but I think would also merit further exploration. 26 00:03:37,940 --> 00:03:48,550 I'd like to add one more thought. This to me is perhaps one of the most interesting insights that was a takeaway for me working in this project, 27 00:03:48,550 --> 00:03:58,840 which is a correlation between enjoying freedom of movement and then basically growing up with a more cosmopolitan identity, 28 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:05,290 which then very much opens the person up to Europe as a whole. 29 00:04:05,290 --> 00:04:11,320 Freedom has always been, you know, as someone who studied political theory, a very dear concept to me, of course. 30 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:17,860 But I didn't really think about the implications of freedom of movement for one's identity and how formative it is. 31 00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:25,120 And obviously, I mean, even myself, I've experienced the impact that it has on a person's outlook, 32 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:33,370 on the potential of their lives to be in touch with people from other parts of the world, not even, you know, 33 00:04:33,370 --> 00:04:40,900 within Europe or any part of the world being exposed to different languages, realising that, yeah, there are little differences, 34 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:45,400 but then there are a lot of similarities and empathising a lot more and being 35 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,360 more interested in the history of other countries and being more involved. 36 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,180 You know, and something shows up on the news about a neighbouring country than perhaps you would have if 37 00:04:55,180 --> 00:05:01,000 you'd never met someone from there or if you never met someone from similar countries to that one. 38 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,300 So I think that that made an impression on me. 39 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:12,670 Yeah. And that is also something that Louisa starts with right from the beginning of our discussion. 40 00:05:12,670 --> 00:05:21,880 Maybe on that note, we can introduce our guest today who is, in fact, the research manager for the entire project. 41 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:32,500 So Louisa has had an academic background in migration studies at Oxford, where her research focussed on church asylum in Germany. 42 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:37,990 But she also worked for the German Agency for International Cooperation. 43 00:05:37,990 --> 00:05:48,970 And as we speak, Louisa has actually just moved on to a new role, climate outreach, focussing in on that area. 44 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:54,910 So we're really lucky that we caught her at the end of her time with this project. 45 00:05:54,910 --> 00:06:04,490 And it was a great conversation. 46 00:06:04,490 --> 00:06:14,480 Hello, I'm Timothy Garton Ash, welcome to the Europe Stories podcast, what the young Europeans want the European Union to do and to be. 47 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:15,830 Over the last three years, 48 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:24,770 an amazing group of young Europeans have worked with me here at the European Studies Centre at Oxford University to answer this question. 49 00:06:24,770 --> 00:06:28,820 And this podcast will present their findings. 50 00:06:28,820 --> 00:06:50,860 Anna, Martin and Lukas say, have a series of conversations with the authors of our concluding report and give you their answers. 51 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:59,830 Louisa, tell us about, first of all, your role in your stories projects, we're kind of interviewing our boss here. 52 00:06:59,830 --> 00:07:04,540 Yes, I'm the research manager for the Europe Stories Project. 53 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:09,550 So I do the day to day running, coordinating research tasks, 54 00:07:09,550 --> 00:07:17,110 overseeing our communication with other partners, Bearder, polling partners or others whom we do. 55 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:23,410 But events with and past under the direction from Professor Garton Ash. 56 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:34,150 And then you guys deliver your great work. How did you end up managing this specific research project? 57 00:07:34,150 --> 00:07:41,110 Well, I took it over from the Great Research Mentors and Workshop in August of September of last year, 58 00:07:41,110 --> 00:07:45,710 and I had studied sustainable development and also migration studies. 59 00:07:45,710 --> 00:07:54,880 So two of the the big themes that came through in the Europe stories project climate change and free movement were quite already to my heart. 60 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:01,780 And I like project management. So this seemed like the perfect project to combine all of my interests. 61 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:06,640 What do you think it is in your experience of growing up and studying and working 62 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:14,080 that has made free movement such a topic of interest for your work and for research? 63 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:22,360 Well, I first really started thinking about free movement and a critical and more academic way in my third year of my undergrad 64 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:31,690 because I was abroad in Singapore and I was quite randomly taking a module on migration and diaspora in Southeast Asia. 65 00:08:31,690 --> 00:08:43,540 And one of our first tasks in this module was to go back into our own family history and see where migration plays a part in our family history. 66 00:08:43,540 --> 00:08:48,340 And then I found out about my granddad fleeing the Red Army from Lithuania back 67 00:08:48,340 --> 00:08:54,500 to Germany and spoke to my mom more about her father's experience of migrating. 68 00:08:54,500 --> 00:09:02,990 And that was just really interesting. And that made me think about my background of moving abroad for periods of time, 69 00:09:02,990 --> 00:09:08,560 be during high school to America or then to study to Scotland and then later to England. 70 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:13,550 And I think free movement is very interesting to people because. 71 00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:20,060 A lot of people can personally identify with it, even if you don't have an academic interest in it. 72 00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:27,160 And the way it's intertwined with personal histories, I think is just really fascinating. 73 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:39,140 You mention these experiences of thinking about migration and movement outside of Europe, so in Singapore and then also in the U.S., you mentioned. 74 00:09:39,140 --> 00:09:49,400 How does that kind of framework or set of experiences where you're thinking about migration movement in different parts of the world, 75 00:09:49,400 --> 00:10:00,680 help you understand your own perception and experience as a European who is living and also thinking about movement and migration? 76 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:06,210 I think it really enforces the European exceptionalism when it comes to freedom of movement, 77 00:10:06,210 --> 00:10:13,190 while there's other examples of arrangements like the Schengen area that in Southeast Asia or the East Coast. 78 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:23,150 So this ability to just study, work and live even without having this particular purpose of stay anywhere in Europe as a European citizen, 79 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:32,200 I think really became quite apparent to me, because to go to the U.S., I need to have a study visa to go to school there and to go to Singapore. 80 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:38,970 Same thing. I got my my residence card because I was an exchange student and. 81 00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:47,760 The idea that as a European citizen, you have the right to move and live anywhere you want without needing to justify your 82 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,730 existence in a certain country by working or studying or some sort of activity, 83 00:10:53,730 --> 00:10:59,850 I think really showed me how unique that is worldwide. 84 00:10:59,850 --> 00:11:08,640 What do you really mean when we say free movement and where do all the specific activities of travelling and working and settling fit into that, 85 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,140 maybe it would be great to get some clarification from you. 86 00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:21,930 Yeah, absolutely. And our analysis, this is also something we found that people group free travel and free movement together and that 87 00:11:21,930 --> 00:11:27,840 a lot of people who say free movement or freedom of movement is the best thing the EU has done. 88 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:36,430 For me personally, they often think of travel experiences. But from a legal point of view, free movement is the right of any U.S. citizen. 89 00:11:36,430 --> 00:11:50,070 So somebody who has the citizenship of one of the EU member states to live, work, study and settle in any of the EU countries. 90 00:11:50,070 --> 00:11:55,230 Free travel, on the other hand, is related to the establishment of the Schengen area. 91 00:11:55,230 --> 00:12:05,250 And that means that you don't only need to be a citizen of a in an area to be able to move within that area without facing border crossing checks, 92 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:12,210 because if you get a visa, then you're not a citizen, but you can still move within all of the Schengen area. 93 00:12:12,210 --> 00:12:19,240 So that's the difference for the checks versus being able to settle elsewhere. 94 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,520 Yes, and as you said, many interviewees are not really aware of this difference, 95 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:31,390 primarily of freedom of movement as freedom to travel, whereas it includes also freedom to settle and work. 96 00:12:31,390 --> 00:12:38,560 Surprising is that nearly three quarters of Europeans agree that the EU would not be worth having without freedom of movement. 97 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,910 Is this what you were expecting or did it surprise you? To many people, 98 00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:50,590 that is most tangible benefits they've had from the from the E.U. So it would make sense that rather than getting rid of certain tariffs, 99 00:12:50,590 --> 00:12:53,260 they would cite freedom of movement as something that you done for them. 100 00:12:53,260 --> 00:13:00,250 And that's the main reason they think it should continue to exist, especially with the EU wide polling being representative. 101 00:13:00,250 --> 00:13:06,790 That is something that, like I said before, as an individual person, you can relate to quite easily. 102 00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:11,020 But yeah, even so, I mean, almost three quarters. That was definitely very surprising. 103 00:13:11,020 --> 00:13:18,460 So it kind of makes you think that with covid and travel restrictions, travel and movement restrictions, whether people thought, you know, 104 00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:21,370 might as well get rid of the EU in that time as well, 105 00:13:21,370 --> 00:13:32,850 is that your sense that there might be some loss of legitimacy, specifically due to travel restrictions on Cuban? 106 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:41,790 So we didn't really have data on this. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I don't think loss of legitimacy, but especially because the. 107 00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:45,600 Pressing for a coordinated response, which then wasn't coordinated, 108 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:54,810 I think made people realise the importance of the nation state again and Europe and how autonomous states still want to act, 109 00:13:54,810 --> 00:14:05,640 especially when it comes to, quote unquote, protecting their own citizens. 110 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:14,880 For Elena, a Romanian master's student we interviewed, a pandemic was the worst moment in recent European history before the health pandemic. 111 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:32,190 I don't think we have realised how much freedom of movement we have and how important health is. 112 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:41,450 How do you think young Europeans, as opposed to other generations, value freedom of movement differently or experience it differently? 113 00:14:41,450 --> 00:14:49,160 In our chapter, we talk about the fact that free movement, which I'm now taking together with free travel, 114 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:56,330 we found data from the Eurobarometer that two in five people had never even travelled to another European country. 115 00:14:56,330 --> 00:15:00,530 And this was particularly high amongst older Europeans. 116 00:15:00,530 --> 00:15:05,870 So those aged 55 plus and a lot lower amongst younger Europeans. 117 00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:08,780 And so I think for young Europeans, especially, 118 00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:16,190 free movement and free travel are incredibly important also in relation to your schemes such as Erasmus, 119 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:21,160 the Discovery Youth Scheme, but also incentives like integrating. 120 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:32,280 Those were cited as very formative experiences for young Europeans, and I think as such, they valued even higher than the average European population. 121 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:41,880 Yes, and I think one of the clearest suggestions that came out of the interviews we did is that there's a link between the 122 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:49,200 experience of travelling and the formation of identity as primarily European or at least very strongly European. 123 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:55,590 This doesn't conflict with their national identities, but there seems to be a coincidence, 124 00:15:55,590 --> 00:16:00,000 at least between the experience of travelling, which is very formative, 125 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,250 and then the connexion they feel to Europe as a whole, to other Europeans from other countries, 126 00:16:05,250 --> 00:16:09,180 especially those who experienced Erasmus like programmes. 127 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:19,550 So there is a. I my mind is still hovering over the fact you mentioned that two out of five. 128 00:16:19,550 --> 00:16:25,460 Respondants European respondents have not travelled outside of their own country, 129 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:31,030 and I wonder what to make of that fact and just to see what you think. 130 00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:44,120 One of the. Sceptical voices in my head is concerned that we might too easily fit free movement into a progressive trajectory of European history, 131 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:50,520 and it does seem that on the aggregate that our findings in the interviews, in the polls confirm that. 132 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:56,330 But there's also this question of stratification and whether the different kinds of 133 00:16:56,330 --> 00:17:01,970 Europeans are going farther apart from each other and the social consequences of that. 134 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:07,010 So I guess whether you think that free movement in itself, 135 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:13,430 the fact that some or many Europeans move but not all across borders to settle into work and to travel. 136 00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:18,020 Hmm. Might lead to further stratification and also whether a certain narrative or a 137 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:22,520 certain way of talking about free movement might also not include everyone, 138 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,990 even when it tries to just wonder what your views are on that. 139 00:17:26,990 --> 00:17:37,490 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in our data, the polling data, which also captures rural, rural versus urban divides, 140 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:41,960 actually, whenever we checked for that variable, it wasn't significant, 141 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,410 which I think is kind of counterintuitive because you think, you know, 142 00:17:45,410 --> 00:17:51,200 there's this bunch of people who feel very disconnected from Europe, who live in the country. 143 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,030 And then there is the metropolitan liberals who jump from one city to the next. 144 00:17:56,030 --> 00:18:05,420 And actually a Eurobarometer found that it's only four percent of the European population who actually cross a European border more than once a month. 145 00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:12,360 So I think. It's actually a much smaller minority than one might assume. 146 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:19,230 But yes, there's definitely socioeconomic factors and whether or not you benefit from free movement and this is also 147 00:18:19,230 --> 00:18:26,250 something we call for in our demands that the EU is more proactive in bringing the schemes that it has, 148 00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:33,630 such as Erasmus Discovery, EU, the European Solidarity Corps, to areas where uptake is very low. 149 00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:43,830 And especially with regards to Erasmus, I think because although you there are, of course, working opportunities through Erasmus, 150 00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:55,180 but I think it is very much branded as this university experience that especially people who study certain subjects enjoy. 151 00:18:55,180 --> 00:19:02,530 Rather than something that almost everyone is eligible for, and that's definitely a communication issue, 152 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:08,980 I mean, if you want to bring Europeans together, we have to get them from all corners of Europe, I think. 153 00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:16,060 Right. And other than this discrepancy between generations and their use of freedom of movement, 154 00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:20,890 as well as perhaps between class or at least different segments of the population. 155 00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:30,940 There are also differences amongst countries, right? Yeah, that's very interesting dynamic as well, because, I mean, we asked people in our polling, 156 00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:36,940 what are the most important things that you has done for you personally? And then freedom of movement was one of them. 157 00:19:36,940 --> 00:19:39,820 So we had this question which sort of asked for personal benefits. 158 00:19:39,820 --> 00:19:44,860 And a lot of people said, you know, I've been able to travel and able to use free movement or, you know, 159 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:51,670 I have not roaming charges or whatever, but the amount of people who said they hadn't benefited was actually surprisingly high. 160 00:19:51,670 --> 00:19:54,970 But generally, people supported free movement and loved it. 161 00:19:54,970 --> 00:20:02,980 But then when we asked the question of whether someone thought free movement had had more costs than benefits for one's country, 162 00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:09,160 sort of on the country level, people were a lot more divided about the benefits versus the costs. 163 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:19,030 And actually more people thought, I think thirty seven percent or thirty eight, that free movement had had more costs than benefits for the country. 164 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:29,680 So I think this discrepancy between people enjoying it for themselves and liking the idea of other people having free movement, 165 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:35,620 but then on a societal scale saying, oh, no, actually all these administrative systems, 166 00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:44,510 people moving around all the time, maybe that is not so beneficial. Paint a more complex picture of a free movement in Europe. 167 00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:50,360 Our interviews with Europeans from different generations are a central component of the Europe Stories project, 168 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:57,020 you can explore their answers about their formative best and worst moments on our website, European Moments Dotcom. 169 00:20:57,020 --> 00:21:02,060 Several of those moments mentioned throughout this episode are linked in the description. 170 00:21:02,060 --> 00:21:08,600 How do you think the experience of freedom of movement or the extent to which different segments of the European 171 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:15,410 population or European citizens experience freedom of movement affect their perceptions of asylum seekers, 172 00:21:15,410 --> 00:21:20,210 how well guarded the external border of the European Union should be? 173 00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:26,330 Is there a correlation here? So we didn't test for correlation. 174 00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:32,510 That said, there is lots of data out there that the higher the percentage of immigrants in your area, 175 00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:35,990 the more likely you are to be accepting of immigrants. 176 00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:42,560 And I think that holds true whether they're from other EU countries or whether they're from outside the EU. 177 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:53,890 But in general, I think. Really, the data points to how supportive people are of even extending free movement rights to third country nationals. 178 00:21:53,890 --> 00:21:58,750 I think what we found in our polling was that with regard to external borders, 179 00:21:58,750 --> 00:22:09,550 people are very concerned about illegal and criminal activity and sort of having an orderly process by which people can enter the EU. 180 00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:15,400 But when it comes to whether the safety of asylum seekers should be prioritised, for example, 181 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:21,610 by Frontex, young Europeans were a lot more supportive of that than old Europeans. 182 00:22:21,610 --> 00:22:26,710 And then, on the other hand, preventing illegal entry into the EU. 183 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:30,700 Older Europeans were a lot more pro than younger Europeans. 184 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:41,740 So I think that shows a shift in understanding of the extent to which we need a hard external EU border to have the quote unquote, 185 00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:48,150 soft borders within. And I think that came through in our interviews as well. 186 00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:50,460 Definitely, just a quick note. 187 00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:58,530 We will have links in the podcast description to these results that we've been discussing, especially the Europe stories polling, 188 00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:04,290 as well as links to relevant interviews that illustrate what we've been discussing so far. 189 00:23:04,290 --> 00:23:08,910 So on this theme of an external border, 190 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:19,020 there's a passage in the chapter that I found very striking that talks about the paradox of 191 00:23:19,020 --> 00:23:25,150 Fortress Europe being born with the signing of the Schengen Agreement in nineteen eighty five. 192 00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:30,210 I'm going to read the passage of the booklet with the nineteen eighty five Schengen Agreement was born. 193 00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:39,300 The paradox of Fortress Europe, a mixture of freedom and security that led to the establishment of Europol in 1994 and of Frontex, 194 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:49,920 the European border and Coast Guard agency in 2004. And you go on to discuss more of what Frontex does and how that might link up with 195 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:56,790 some of the debateable points about the necessity and nature of our external border. 196 00:23:56,790 --> 00:24:04,320 So what is this paradox, this mixture of freedom and security and where we now I think as we trace in the 197 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:12,120 chapter the going from freedom of movement as a means to an end to an end in itself. 198 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:19,710 We see that the the EU, both the people, but also those making European laws, 199 00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:26,640 found that the free movement of its people is a right that every European citizens should enjoy. 200 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:36,580 But as that move forward, that's when the tighter border controls and later on fences were erected. 201 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:44,920 I think the freer and more liberal progressive the thinking became in Europe, 202 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:54,650 policymakers felt that this meant that we had to have those borders sort of on the fringes of Europe, pushing out the. 203 00:24:54,650 --> 00:25:01,380 Restrictions, if you will, and I think. That's at least my understanding of the paradox that is being talked about, 204 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:08,100 their freedom of movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union as we know it now. 205 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:18,660 It wasn't founded as such, but does it remain the same notion as it was in the days of the founding of the European communities and so on? 206 00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:23,350 Or has it evolved? 207 00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:34,630 I think it definitely has evolved from being a necessity to allow workers to move within Europe and to fill labour shortages to especially 208 00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:43,210 young Europeans and understanding it as a as a right that is just part of who they are and just travelling anywhere in Europe. 209 00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:46,770 You just don't think about whether you need a visa because you don't. 210 00:25:46,770 --> 00:25:55,540 So is that even a question? And I remember when I first left Europe at 16, I had never filled in a visa application for anything. 211 00:25:55,540 --> 00:25:58,960 It was like, OK, like I actually need to go to the embassy now. 212 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,940 And I didn't have a passport at that point. I just hadn't needed one. 213 00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:10,240 And so I think this understanding of of course, there's freedom of movement that's taken it for granted. 214 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:17,750 To the extent that we found that you couldn't imagine Europe without it. I think this is a massive step from what it used to be. 215 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:26,030 But at the same time, it's not as if people either have access to free movement or don't. 216 00:26:26,030 --> 00:26:32,310 So. Something we focus on in our chapter as well is this idea that it's a spectrum 217 00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:38,370 to which extent a person has access to free movement in terms of travel, 218 00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:41,900 work, study and living elsewhere. 219 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:50,880 At the one end, you have European citizens, people who are nationals of a member state, and they can enjoy free movement in its entirety. 220 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,080 But then you also have residents of European member states. 221 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:01,050 And so if they want to move to another country within the EU, they then have to apply for another residence permit. 222 00:27:01,050 --> 00:27:10,710 They have to prove certain levels of integration, be that like language skills or certain certificates to be able to move on. 223 00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:20,700 So free movement is a right that the EU distributes and it distributes it unequally depending on your status in society. 224 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:27,240 So if you're a citizen, you get the whole package and then if you're a resident, you get some of it. 225 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:34,110 And then at the other end, there's the third country nationals. If you're a student, then that's still pretty good. 226 00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:41,610 Even if you're from outside, you know, at least you can travel and you can study and then sometimes even stay on to find work. 227 00:27:41,610 --> 00:27:50,350 But then at the very end of that spectrum, we have third country nationals living in the EU, such as asylum seekers who. 228 00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:56,110 Aren't even allowed to leave their city boundaries while they're awaiting the outcome of their asylum application. 229 00:27:56,110 --> 00:28:05,740 And so this is something that we draw attention to in the report to show that the EU isn't this Disneyland of free movement, 230 00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:14,560 but actually there is very much a hierarchy of who gets to go where and for what purpose. 231 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:21,070 Yes, and with regard to what the U.S. is doing and not doing with regard to freedom of movement in this, 232 00:28:21,070 --> 00:28:24,250 by the way, is reflected in our interviews quite often, 233 00:28:24,250 --> 00:28:31,570 is precisely the idea that the EU has not been doing enough in addressing the migrant crisis for lack of a better name. 234 00:28:31,570 --> 00:28:39,340 So could you clarify a little bit how the European Union defines freedom of movement as a freedom? 235 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:43,510 Yeah, sure. So in terms of what the EU is and isn't doing, 236 00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:50,380 one of the main points of our chapter is to say that the EU perceives a free movement as a negative freedom, 237 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:55,630 which is to say that its role is to remove barriers and that's it. 238 00:28:55,630 --> 00:29:02,890 However, because of all the data we have on unrealised migration aspirations within the EU, 239 00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:08,740 we suggest that free movement should be conceptualised as a positive freedom by the EU, 240 00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:17,110 which means that rather than just removing barriers to freedom of movement for its citizens or residents, 241 00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:28,000 it should actively put measures in place that allow people to realise their migration aspirations and actually move and settle abroad. 242 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,220 Because a survey done in twenty seventeen showed that about a third of Europeans 243 00:29:33,220 --> 00:29:38,620 would like to move permanently to another country if they had the chance, 244 00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:46,390 which is in the global comparison, a lot higher than the average, which I think set at 15 or 17 percent. 245 00:29:46,390 --> 00:30:01,930 So that's quite something we asked Evelin. 246 00:30:01,930 --> 00:30:08,980 She an Austrian student and international law, what is the most important thing the EU has done for her personally? 247 00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:15,510 The possibility to me to be a citizen so I can prove I can live and work in other member states. 248 00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:35,760 I mean, it's a lot of possibilities. And you don't you don't you obviously don't have the rights. 249 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:43,930 So, Louisa, just now you were talking about these different degrees of freedom of movement and how 250 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:48,380 that reflects a certain hierarchy of citizens and residents and third-country nationals. 251 00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:56,660 And one of the really interesting suggestions that you make in the conclusion is that. 252 00:30:56,660 --> 00:31:07,010 It would be good for the E to extend the right to free movement to third country nationals who are also EU residents or who were registered in the EU. 253 00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:13,220 Could you just spell out a little bit what that involves and why you think that's a good idea? 254 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:14,120 Yeah, definitely. 255 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:23,420 So first of all, it comes from the finding that the large majority of Europeans support free movement not only for themselves, but also for others. 256 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:28,730 So this is directly derived from what we found with the Eurobarometer found. 257 00:31:28,730 --> 00:31:37,400 And in a sense, there are several reasons for why extending free movement rights to residents is a good idea. 258 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,970 One is specifically related to asylum seekers. 259 00:31:40,970 --> 00:31:51,020 So with the Dublin system having to claim asylum in the country that you first arrive in, it means that some countries are particularly overburdened. 260 00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:57,020 But even more so, asylum seekers might have very good reasons to move to a different country in the EU. 261 00:31:57,020 --> 00:31:59,600 That does not happen to be a border country. 262 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:09,050 And so if they have the prospect of being given freedom of movement after two years or so of residence in the country that they first arriving, 263 00:32:09,050 --> 00:32:17,300 this would probably lower the numbers of secondary movements, which is when someone enters the EU into a country. 264 00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:23,420 And then rather than staying there to claim asylum, as they should by law, 265 00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:28,310 they move on to another country and claim asylum there just to be sent back to the first country. 266 00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:37,790 So that would cut off those administrative processes, but also the well, the danger that is involved in smuggling people within the EU. 267 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:44,660 And secondly, on a more aspirational level, a lot of people, certain evidence suggests, 268 00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:53,670 become citizens of an EU member state because it allows them freedom of movement rather than for reasons. 269 00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:57,610 There are more traditionally associated with citizenship, 270 00:32:57,610 --> 00:33:04,500 such as feeling belonging to a community and to a country and your identity being bound up with a certain country or place. 271 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:10,260 And so if freedom of movement was available to residents after two or three years anyways, 272 00:33:10,260 --> 00:33:15,480 then probably those citizenship applications would go down slightly. 273 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,430 But those people who are applying to citizenship then actually want to because they identify with 274 00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:29,110 a certain country rather than for the instrumental reason of getting access to free movement. 275 00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:40,210 This chapter does not focus as much on asylum seekers and policy related to that concern as other freedom of movement 276 00:33:40,210 --> 00:33:48,880 topics joined to briefly explain the focus of the chapter and why you chose to focus more on one part of this broad topic, 277 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,490 as opposed to a very hot topic, which is asylum seeking. 278 00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:56,230 Well, there were several reasons for it. 279 00:33:56,230 --> 00:34:05,710 One being that, you know, in our interviews, a lot of people cited freedom of movement and they already had access to it. 280 00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:10,060 And that's sort of a formative moment or the best Europea moment or whatever. 281 00:34:10,060 --> 00:34:19,330 And so that is the phenomenon that we were going to look into further, both in our analysis of the interviews, but also in our polling. 282 00:34:19,330 --> 00:34:24,670 We asked a lot about whether people had benefited from freedom of movement or what they 283 00:34:24,670 --> 00:34:30,250 thought of freedom of movement in general rather than in relation to asylum seekers. 284 00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:39,160 And secondly, in terms of Europe stories, this is a project that is looking inward more than outward. 285 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:45,250 And because there are still a lot of barriers to free movement within the EU and quite the imbalance 286 00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:51,490 between east and west and north and south in terms of who actually practises free movement, 287 00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:57,340 we felt that that was more of a of a necessary focus of the chapter. 288 00:34:57,340 --> 00:35:01,720 We would have loved to include asylum and a common European asylum system, 289 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:09,160 but that warranted an entire chapter of its own and more representative polling on what people think about that, 290 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,350 which is being done a lot on national level, but also is very. 291 00:35:14,350 --> 00:35:19,330 Reactive in terms of how people feel about asylum and refugees, 292 00:35:19,330 --> 00:35:27,850 so that's why we chose to focus on freedom of movement within the EU rather than movement from outside to inside that, you know. 293 00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:31,210 And it's worth mentioning that as far as freedom of movement goes, 294 00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:37,900 this is one area where the EU is perceived to not be doing as much as in other areas. 295 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:46,780 I don't know if you want to add anything in terms of the perception of the EU with regard to what they're doing on that front are not doing. 296 00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:57,100 In terms of migration of third country nationals, yeah, yeah, I mean, this is very much a personal opinion. 297 00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:08,050 So I think I think a lot of people have. Very rightly lamented the fact that there is no functioning common European asylum system. 298 00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:13,200 There've been a lot of different ways in which people have suggested how to go about that, 299 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:22,690 whether it's a group of the willing who take up and divide of however many asylum seekers between them or how to overhaul the entire system. 300 00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:33,310 But yeah, because of how the EU works is very difficult, of course, to agree on something, especially something as sensitive as migration and asylum. 301 00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:52,680 But that's no excuse not to fix it because it doesn't work, so. Lisa Leiter, our colleague at the York Stories Project, agrees. 302 00:36:52,680 --> 00:37:03,760 Here's what she said she would like the EU to achieve by 2030. I think one really, really important issue that needs to be solved by 20, 30, 303 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:11,200 but I'd rather have itself by next year or tomorrow if could is a humane asylum and migration system, 304 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:17,530 because I think it's a shame that people are still dying every single day and the Mediterranean Sea. 305 00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:39,070 It's a big EU failure. We not only for those people who are in need, but we also fail each other. 306 00:37:39,070 --> 00:37:48,200 Something I found very striking about this chapter and this topic, Louisa, is that I mean, we're really kind of talking on a number of registers. 307 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,150 There's a very kind of conceptual and legal part about rights. 308 00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:58,720 But obviously, as you mentioned at the beginning, free movement is also very salient and tangible for people. 309 00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:04,570 It's something that they live out. And I was thinking about your experience at the visa, 310 00:38:04,570 --> 00:38:12,670 and I was just also thinking about the chapter mentioning the importance of the abolition of roaming charges. 311 00:38:12,670 --> 00:38:20,470 For many Europeans, a quarter of European citizens mentioned that the abolition of roaming charges 312 00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:26,650 is one of the three most important things that the EU has personally and. 313 00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:38,230 I mean, let's start with the basics. Why do you think that matters to people as seemingly very mundane and kind of pedestrian fact and convenience? 314 00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:44,590 Yeah, I actually remember when we when we met with a polling group to decide on the answer options for that question. 315 00:38:44,590 --> 00:38:50,200 We were discussing how what we wanted to put in there because there were suggestions about shorter 316 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:57,940 queues at airports or being able to just scan your your passport and go through the electronic gates. 317 00:38:57,940 --> 00:39:07,030 But we ended up settling on roaming charges because I think a lot of at least the people on the team who are in their mid 20s mostly can 318 00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:13,660 actually still remember a time when they were travelling in Europe and you had roaming charges and you always have to turn off your mobile. 319 00:39:13,660 --> 00:39:19,180 I sounds old now, so I think that's something that, again, was very personal to people within the team. 320 00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:23,650 And we were curious as to whether that was important for others as well. 321 00:39:23,650 --> 00:39:31,720 It did surprise us that it was one of the top three things. But again, we had why why did it surprise you? 322 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:36,070 Well, there weren't like sort of 20 or 30 answer options, right. 323 00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:41,380 So that's the other thing. But we did put it other for people to say something else. 324 00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:48,640 If they thought roaming charges was too basic or too mundane to be called the personal benefit of the EU. 325 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:59,020 But, yeah, I think people really resonated with that because there was a little monetary benefit for them and. 326 00:39:59,020 --> 00:40:08,890 It shows the lack of visibility of the EU on the individual level, that it takes something as I mean, 327 00:40:08,890 --> 00:40:15,640 the grand scheme of things like roaming charges are a huge cost to anyone anyways, unless you talk on the phone for 10 hours a day from abroad. 328 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:21,250 But I mean, I've had some unexpected roaming charges in the past, and that was not fun. 329 00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:25,210 And they were quite expensive compared to what I used to. 330 00:40:25,210 --> 00:40:29,440 And to not think about that, not think about that when travelling, 331 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:37,300 I think makes the experience of going around Europe very similar to the one you have when you're going around in your own country. 332 00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:45,130 And I think the the tentative explanation, at least that makes sense to my mind is, is that it is at the end of the day, 333 00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:56,440 these very palpable experiences of everyday life that contribute to an experience of Europe as more holistic, if you will, or without barriers. 334 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,580 Basically, you know, there are there are several types of border, if you will. 335 00:41:00,580 --> 00:41:06,820 There is definitely a language border which is increasingly overcome by a common language 336 00:41:06,820 --> 00:41:13,240 that ironically will no longer belong to one of the member states in the union. 337 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:17,530 But I mean, still, that is related to first of all, 338 00:41:17,530 --> 00:41:23,500 it's another generational divide because younger Europeans tend to speak English much more easily than older Europeans, 339 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:28,030 but also it's related to education and to a certain extent, privilege. 340 00:41:28,030 --> 00:41:34,570 But that's one border at other borders, obviously, the physical borders, that is what people most have in mind when they think of free movement. 341 00:41:34,570 --> 00:41:42,580 But then there are other ways in which we experience the borders. If you want to buy something on Amazon, there are advantages to it. 342 00:41:42,580 --> 00:41:46,960 Amazon address you use, right? Whereas in the US you wouldn't have that problem. 343 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:54,430 I know that one interviewee mentioned this. His name is Sasha. And for him, having a more integrated common market would be the solution for that. 344 00:41:54,430 --> 00:42:02,140 And this is a long comment to say that what explains these replies at the end of the day is they have a very evident effect in our everyday lives. 345 00:42:02,140 --> 00:42:12,380 If we do, in fact, use our freedom to move within the. 346 00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:18,770 Sasha is American. He lives in Barcelona and has been living and working in the EU since 2012. 347 00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:23,480 Here's what he said he would like the EU to have achieved by 2030. For me, 348 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:29,660 the ideal is make the idea of a single market more true to the letter of what 349 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:35,630 that actually says instead of the approximation that we live in right now. 350 00:42:35,630 --> 00:42:41,960 If I click on Amazon.com, for example, I'm directed to a website that works for each individual country. 351 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,920 But I look at it like I should be able to just go to Amazon.com and it doesn't like 352 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:58,040 the internal country division should necessarily matter for goods and services. And we're halfway there, but we're definitely not there. 353 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:04,610 See, your Verizon contract in Portugal has absolutely nothing to do with Vodafone in Spain or wherever else. 354 00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:25,060 And I think that that's something that the EU should be striving to break down. 355 00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:34,450 What do you recommend that you do to address East-West North-South divides and what comes to what we 356 00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:40,930 were just speaking about actually the ability to use freedom of movement or access to this freedom? 357 00:43:40,930 --> 00:43:50,020 Yes. So one of the main things that we suggest, which is quite easy to implement, is widening the existing programmes. 358 00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:55,060 So the Erasmus programme, Discovery EU and the. 359 00:43:55,060 --> 00:44:01,610 The European Solidarity Court and especially the discovery you and the European Solidarity Corps, 360 00:44:01,610 --> 00:44:06,050 elevating those to the sort of prominence level of Erasmus, 361 00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:13,700 I think would really help people to access these programmes from areas where there's not a lot of uptake, 362 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:18,530 especially with the discovery programme, as being a non educational programme. 363 00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:30,350 We think that there's really a lot of potential to give people experiences of travelling Europe, of seeing other countries, seeing other cultures. 364 00:44:30,350 --> 00:44:37,580 Why is this important, if you think? Well, our data suggests that those are the most formative European moments. 365 00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:46,680 And so for European identity, you need to feel that you're part of Europe and there's no no better way to. 366 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,570 To feel part of Europe, then to experience it and travel is a great way to do that, 367 00:44:51,570 --> 00:45:00,900 but especially we suggest extending the validity of tickets or proposing certain routes that are maybe less travelled or start in in 368 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:10,290 areas where there is not a lot of people taking part to show people that Europe isn't just Milan and Brussels and Berlin or Paris, 369 00:45:10,290 --> 00:45:15,750 but that Europe is, as all of it, and encouraging people to see as much of it as they can. 370 00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:23,940 I think really should be a priority of the EU in making its citizens realise what it means to be European. 371 00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:31,350 I can see some people listening to this and thinking, wow, that's a very superficial thing to prioritise within Europe, 372 00:45:31,350 --> 00:45:36,930 you know, just financing a young people's travelling desires and so on. 373 00:45:36,930 --> 00:45:39,840 I mean, that's very cool. But is that really a priority? 374 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:45,530 So, again, I know you've already spoken to this a little bit, but if you could just like in a nutshell, say why, 375 00:45:45,530 --> 00:45:53,160 why it is that important that people get to have this chance, especially when it comes to addressing social cleavages? 376 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,250 It's precisely about that. It's about having the chance to see that. 377 00:45:56,250 --> 00:46:01,650 We're not saying, you know, everybody should travel and needs to travel and that's the only way to feel European. 378 00:46:01,650 --> 00:46:11,160 But it is a great way. And so far, if you don't have the money or if in your hometown you've just never heard about it, then that's not right. 379 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:19,140 And so just making these these opportunities available to people I think is is incredibly important. 380 00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:25,650 The reason I ask is, again, this came across to me very clearly in the interviews between those people who got to have this experience. 381 00:46:25,650 --> 00:46:32,040 And I mean, by no doubt, it doesn't impact the value that people attribute to freedom of movement. 382 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:39,900 I think that's across the board valued. But the way they relate to Europe as a whole is different once you've had that experience. 383 00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:45,540 But it's not just about Europe. It's about the prospects of the next generations, 384 00:46:45,540 --> 00:46:54,120 because it really makes a difference whether you've been exposed as a young person to other cultures, other countries, other languages. 385 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,260 And I think that also increases the possibilities that you will use your freedom of 386 00:46:58,260 --> 00:47:03,750 movement later on in life to perhaps work and and settle elsewhere for a while. 387 00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:13,560 I think in relation to that, you enabling people to migrate to actually enabling people who want to migrate to actually do so is an important one, 388 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:19,200 because the EU has been quite complacent in the idea that as long as we remove barriers, this will be fine. 389 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,790 People can just go and migrate. But like not just European, 390 00:47:23,790 --> 00:47:29,220 but worldwide experience has shown that if you don't have these networks and if you don't have the 391 00:47:29,220 --> 00:47:36,000 money to just even find out what the administrative steps are to be able to move to another country, 392 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:43,780 you're probably not going to. And so. With a third of Europeans wanting to migrate if they have the chance, 393 00:47:43,780 --> 00:47:50,470 I think there should be a lot more really easily accessible information for people just on the administrative steps, 394 00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:57,610 like setting up the citizens advice, where you can just walk in and be like, so I'd love to move to Slovakia, how to go about it. 395 00:47:57,610 --> 00:48:05,590 Like if you actually walk past a little shop that says, talk to us if you want to work in Hungary, come in and talk to us kind of thing. 396 00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:09,940 Like think. And I think that's pretty important to emphasise, actually, 397 00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:16,240 it's not just enabling young Europeans to study in another European country, it's also to work. 398 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,200 And there are some professional programmes that the EU promotes. 399 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,790 But just in general, 400 00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:29,770 creating those incentives for people to go work in different countries can make an incredible difference in their lives and their prospects. 401 00:48:29,770 --> 00:48:34,000 And I think another thing that is important to think about is that. 402 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:40,980 Exchange is always a two way learning experience, there is communities that get someone from abroad and. 403 00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:48,870 I think that's very important, too, just to be able to communicate and live with people that aren't all like you, 404 00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:51,630 so it doesn't actually require everyone to go out and migrate, 405 00:48:51,630 --> 00:49:00,480 but also it's to make it more acceptable to just offer traineeships or jobs to people from other EU countries in your hometown, 406 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:12,990 making this more of an exclusive experience, not just for the people who go out, but also the people who receive intra EU migrants. 407 00:49:12,990 --> 00:49:19,650 Maria Pensa, it's a Polish high school student, participated in the Discovery EU travel programme. 408 00:49:19,650 --> 00:49:22,980 Here's what she said about that experience recently. 409 00:49:22,980 --> 00:49:35,730 I was the travel thanks to discover you and I visited a lot of museums and I saw the art and how similar the art was. 410 00:49:35,730 --> 00:49:40,020 The art says a lot about the society. 411 00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:49,920 So we had very similar problems in the countries wars about religion and war, about independence. 412 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:59,690 And I think that when I saw that, I definitely saw myself as European. 413 00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:10,790 As we wind down this really helpful conversation, there is a kind of reflexive question that I want to pose to you, 414 00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:17,630 and it goes back to something you said earlier about how it seems like in this time during the pandemic, 415 00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:22,430 we see the nation state rearing its head again. And to be honest, 416 00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:26,780 that that remark introduced a slight sense of pessimism and maybe because it seems 417 00:50:26,780 --> 00:50:31,370 like maybe free movement is something we can only expect when times are good and, 418 00:50:31,370 --> 00:50:39,770 you know, when we have these continental or even global difficult times like pandemics and wars, 419 00:50:39,770 --> 00:50:45,500 then really we're going to expect things to really go south very quickly and free movement with it. 420 00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:52,470 Two, I don't know. None of us can really predict the future and what kind of disasters will before this continent. 421 00:50:52,470 --> 00:51:00,110 But I guess maybe the smaller question or the more personal one is, did working on this chapter, not just in the abstract, 422 00:51:00,110 --> 00:51:09,520 but during this time, did it make you more hopeful or less hopeful about free movement as a project as well as a process? 423 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:21,010 Mm hmm. So I think luckily, maybe that's not a great reason, but there is always labour market reasons for people and goods to move. 424 00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:28,990 So I think in that respect, we're on the safe side that there will be a level of free movement continuously. 425 00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:36,160 I think there is a danger in that sort of came through when we analysed all the interviews, 426 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:43,620 especially when you think about free movement is the best thing that you has done for people, but the actual. 427 00:51:43,620 --> 00:51:52,680 Critical engagement with it is very low, unless it is to a very large extent taken away from people, 428 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,810 they don't actually realise how much they value it. 429 00:51:56,810 --> 00:52:04,440 If it's just an idea in the sky, which is one of the reasons we do encourage people to use their freedom of movement, 430 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,810 because then it becomes tangible and then it becomes. 431 00:52:08,810 --> 00:52:14,480 An EU policy that that pertains to you and that you want to fight for and that that is important to uphold. 432 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:19,460 No matter what the situation is, because that's the idea, right, 433 00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:29,090 that you should be able to live anywhere without having to prove that you can finance yourselves, that you have all these things ticked off. 434 00:52:29,090 --> 00:52:43,340 But just by value of being a citizen of the EU, you have a right to be here and do what you want to do. 435 00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:49,340 Then is Lotos, a Hungarian communications officer, echoed this sentiment when saying, 436 00:52:49,340 --> 00:52:59,160 I think most people do not know what it means to be waiting in a long queue just to go to the other side of the border until the personal experience. 437 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:15,840 And so the fact that they can move freely, travel freely and freely, a true European. 438 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:24,460 Did working on this project change your view of young Europeans? 439 00:53:24,460 --> 00:53:29,350 When I was in school, we learnt about globalisation and it was this great thing, 440 00:53:29,350 --> 00:53:35,680 and you thought that things were going to keep progressing in that way and could keep getting better. 441 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:42,500 And then especially young Europeans have lived through quite a few things at this point, like. 442 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:49,770 Migration crisis, Brexit covid, there is a certain sense of. 443 00:53:49,770 --> 00:53:57,060 Things going downhill, and that pushes some to cynicism of, you know, 444 00:53:57,060 --> 00:54:01,920 there's nothing really we can do anyways and climate change is going to end us all anyways. 445 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:08,420 And I think the role of. Projects like these as to listen to people, 446 00:54:08,420 --> 00:54:18,200 but also make them realise their own agency and their European stories and enable them to to take charge of their destiny and of Europe's destiny. 447 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:25,370 I mean, at one point we're going to be those fifty five plus and in the polls, you know, but what are we going to say then? 448 00:54:25,370 --> 00:54:28,880 And I think we should ask ourselves those questions more. 449 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:38,100 And this project has definitely made me ask myself that question more. 450 00:54:38,100 --> 00:54:46,900 It seems that. 451 00:54:46,900 --> 00:54:53,590 Our guest today was Luisa Mello, a huge thanks to our podcast editor, Billy Kragen, 452 00:54:53,590 --> 00:55:00,340 our research manager, Luisa Mello, and our report editor, Professor Timothy Garton Ash. 453 00:55:00,340 --> 00:55:05,780 We're also grateful to our founders, the Swedish Nobel Foundation, the tights and the system. 454 00:55:05,780 --> 00:55:11,710 MacArthur for making the Europe Stories Project a special thank you to Ellen Leach. 455 00:55:11,710 --> 00:55:23,800 That Lily striker made Moynihan, Sophie Verité and Victoria Hansell for contributing to the podcast production music by Unicorn Heads and Ketso. 456 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:30,370 Finally, thank you to the whole Europe Stories Project. I'm your host on the margins and I'm your host. 457 00:55:30,370 --> 00:55:37,060 Lucasta. Thank you for listening today. Join us for the next episode of the Europe Stories podcast and until then, 458 00:55:37,060 --> 00:55:57,387 you can find out more about our research project at European Moment Starcom.