1 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:17,160 Hello, I'm Timothy Garton Ash, welcome to the Europe Stories podcast, what the young Europeans want the European Union to do and to be. 2 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,510 Over the last three years, 3 00:00:18,510 --> 00:00:27,450 an amazing group of young Europeans have worked with me here at the European Studies Centre at Oxford University to answer this question. 4 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:30,990 And this podcast will present their findings. 5 00:00:30,990 --> 00:00:54,380 Host Anna and Luckhurst say have a series of conversations with the authors of our concluding report and give you their answers. 6 00:00:54,380 --> 00:00:59,900 I can see from the reflection behind you that you're in a very sunny place. 7 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:08,540 I am currently in the Azores in an island called Sweida, which means the Third Island, a very special night. 8 00:01:08,540 --> 00:01:11,030 So we're talking about climate today. 9 00:01:11,030 --> 00:01:23,760 And one of the really provocative suggestions in this chapter that we're going to talk about with our guests as well is banning short haul flights. 10 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:32,820 Which is a specific policy, obviously also linked up with all kinds of other transport and infrastructural proposals that would have to be in place, 11 00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:36,480 and I'm just thinking about, well, the Azores are a bit far out, 12 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:46,530 but it would be very difficult indeed to to get there and see your family without short haul flights and even on the mainland. 13 00:01:46,530 --> 00:01:51,450 I just think it's quite provocative as a suggestion, because so many of us, I think, 14 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:59,640 especially young people, are now used to short and inexpensive flights on the European continent. 15 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:07,780 So what do you think? I mean, like from your own perspective, how do you react when you hear a proposal to ban short haul flights? 16 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:17,770 First of all, I'm always sensitive to proposals that are about banning first and foremost before trying to create incentives for people to choose 17 00:02:17,770 --> 00:02:27,070 and for companies to present services that are perhaps better aligned with society's interests and obviously the planet's interests. 18 00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:33,130 But I understand the sense of urgency. So I don't know if in hindsight there are other things that we could have done. 19 00:02:33,130 --> 00:02:38,590 But I think the sense of urgency does justify more governmental intervention, 20 00:02:38,590 --> 00:02:44,710 even though I would like to see alternatives being tried out before we go to that extent. 21 00:02:44,710 --> 00:02:48,550 That said, I think that as long as there are alternatives, 22 00:02:48,550 --> 00:03:00,070 I think banning short flights is an appropriate solution for this in terms of trade offs and costs for Europeans and non Europeans staying in Europe, 23 00:03:00,070 --> 00:03:04,720 I think it makes sense. So what to do with the remotest parts of the world? 24 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:11,230 Is it really important that they're that connected? For instance, the Azores used to be the poorest region in Europe. 25 00:03:11,230 --> 00:03:16,420 Nowadays, you come here and, you know, it's it's a wonderful region to visit. 26 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:24,310 You're not in one for anything here. And it's physically connected to the rest of the world because you have a flight every day. 27 00:03:24,310 --> 00:03:31,060 And it's you know, now that we know everything we do about environmental change, this this does sound excessive. 28 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:35,200 But you do have flights here every day. Every island is connected. 29 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:41,290 Every island now has an airport. And on the other hand, you have an interconnected world. 30 00:03:41,290 --> 00:03:46,900 So a lot of connexion that could only be assured via transportation can now be 31 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:52,330 replaced to a certain extent with online communication so it can be dispensed with. 32 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:55,720 So the question is, now that we're in a more interconnected world, 33 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:05,650 does this justify assuring these connexions to faraway remote places via air transportation? 34 00:04:05,650 --> 00:04:09,640 I have friends with more radical views on climate who, for instance, 35 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,470 refused to visit their families in other continents because that would entail flying. 36 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:15,880 And they don't want to do that. 37 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:22,660 And they're very critical of, oh, you know, I know that family is important, but there are other higher values right now. 38 00:04:22,660 --> 00:04:26,500 And flying to the middle of the ocean, you know, just take a boat. 39 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:34,870 If it's that important for you. If both of these things matter to you, why not take a one week long ship to to the Azores? 40 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:42,700 What you're saying is so interesting because it actually gets to really important themes in this topic of climate, 41 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:51,430 which I hadn't thought about until you said it, which is one is the material aspect of how we're living in such an integrated economic 42 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:56,530 and political world and also everything down to our family and friends as well. 43 00:04:56,530 --> 00:04:59,770 We're coming off of discussing free movement last week. 44 00:04:59,770 --> 00:05:07,150 And of course, to some extent, free movement wouldn't be possible without a very efficient transportation infrastructure. 45 00:05:07,150 --> 00:05:11,200 So there's that set of themes. But then there's also the other issue you mentioned, 46 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:18,070 which is about banning and your hesitation with banning coming out of obviously your own thinking and maybe your own experience. 47 00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:22,870 But that's another theme that we're really digging into this chapter as well, 48 00:05:22,870 --> 00:05:33,850 because we have these really interesting findings about perceptions of relative efficacy amongst democratic and authoritarian regimes. 49 00:05:33,850 --> 00:05:44,320 And it also gets at this theme of coercion and the possible need for strong enforcement to combat climate change, 50 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,300 which was, again, very provocatively suggested by our poll, 51 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:57,100 which found that many young Europeans felt that democratic regimes were less effective than authoritarian ones at combating climate change. 52 00:05:57,100 --> 00:06:00,520 So, yeah, anyway, that gives us a lot to think about. 53 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:08,320 And all of these themes were also captured in our conversation with Victoria and Real Ray of this 54 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:14,080 was an infamous student in Russian and Eastern European studies at St. Anthony's College in Oxford, 55 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:20,740 where she was Dundar scholar. And that's how she joined this programme, The Europe Stories Project. 56 00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:27,190 Her research at the time focussed on the relationship between science, technology and politics, 57 00:06:27,190 --> 00:06:33,400 ranging from the situation of Polish academia under a populist government to European climate politics. 58 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:42,200 And she's now moved on. She's about to start a PhD in sociology, also at Oxford. 59 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:48,620 And our other guest today is Victoria Heinzel, who hails from Germany, 60 00:06:48,620 --> 00:06:58,760 although she did her undergraduate degree at Maastricht and then also her master's in European politics at Oxford. 61 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:08,320 Victoria joined us from Germany, where she's now doing her Ph.D. at the Autobio Home School of Management. 62 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:15,520 Can I take us a bit back in time and ask if growing up there was an event or a series of 63 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,160 events that made climate a big part of your life or you were thinking for transparency? 64 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,440 I joined the green. Well, the young Green Party in Switzerland when I was 16. 65 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,600 And I think most people one day join a party that very passionate about something. 66 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,980 And then also that's what a lot of people assume, that, OK, you joined the youth party. So you must have been really passionate about the issue. 67 00:07:36,980 --> 00:07:43,240 But for me, it was more like I'm interested in politics and I want to get more involved as a person. 68 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:51,110 And there wasn't necessarily one single issue that mobilised me. I knew I was politically, personally more like on the left side of things. 69 00:07:51,110 --> 00:07:56,140 But since it's on are basically two main options the Socialist Party and the Green Party. 70 00:07:56,140 --> 00:08:01,700 And I end the picking the Green Party because I was like, OK, this is the one issue that is. 71 00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:07,250 Slightly more important to me than perhaps some members of the Socialist Party, 72 00:08:07,250 --> 00:08:13,490 and then I kind of ever since I've been interested in climate change and working on it from different angles, 73 00:08:13,490 --> 00:08:20,750 to be honest, I rather stumbled into the chapter work. So I don't have a particularly interest in climate policy. 74 00:08:20,750 --> 00:08:25,340 For me, from a political background, I'm rather decent education policy. 75 00:08:25,340 --> 00:08:32,690 But when I first got in touch with the research results that we initially collected during polls and in interviews, 76 00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:38,360 for me it became quite clear that the climate change chapter will be one of the most important one, 77 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:47,240 because there is such big importance of the climate issue for young Europeans in general, but also for the Europeans on this continent altogether. 78 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:52,910 So I think it will really be one of the decisive topics that will also influence 79 00:08:52,910 --> 00:08:57,860 the opinion on the EU and our own feelings as Europeans in the coming years. 80 00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:04,490 Climate change is so essential to really get the full picture and the whole story that we are interested in. 81 00:09:04,490 --> 00:09:07,400 I have a question for you both precisely on that. 82 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:16,010 Are you opinion surveys found that the environment was a priority for most Europeans across all generations, as you just said. 83 00:09:16,010 --> 00:09:17,120 Did this surprise you, 84 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:24,350 given that the general perception is that young Europeans are far more concerned with the environment than older generations are? 85 00:09:24,350 --> 00:09:28,200 Or were you expecting this personally? 86 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:33,080 Surprised me. I mean, especially writing up the climate change chapter. 87 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,540 I had to go back to all of our data and look into it again and look at the age differences. 88 00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:47,570 And it was a lot harder than expected to determine if there even is an age gap. 89 00:09:47,570 --> 00:09:55,820 And but then if you look at the literature on this and other what other people have done so far, it becomes obvious that if I did that, 90 00:09:55,820 --> 00:10:06,560 there's this massive age gap and if the young Europeans or young people in general are pushing for climate action is not necessarily true. 91 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:08,040 So it's not just our research, 92 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:18,380 but also sociological studies on age gaps regarding climate change issues that show that it's actually not that much of a difference necessarily. 93 00:10:18,380 --> 00:10:24,470 I mean, I think that's a classic for social sciences. It's a lot more complicated than one might expect sometimes. 94 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:26,090 Even then one might have been hoping for. 95 00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:34,430 And my closest environment, everyone is very aware of the urgency and they all agree, yes, it's an important topic, 96 00:10:34,430 --> 00:10:40,520 but I fear that the major differences are usually in what we're willing to commit to the course. 97 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,810 So what are people willing to give up? How how urgent do you think? 98 00:10:44,810 --> 00:10:48,950 Should it be a policy focus off of whoever we elect? 99 00:10:48,950 --> 00:10:57,890 So for me, it was not a big surprise that most Europeans share the sense of urgency that we have to combat climate change. 100 00:10:57,890 --> 00:11:05,960 But instead, it's more interesting to me to look at how far they differ and what we should do and can do next. 101 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:15,920 I would say while many of our interviewees converged on the priority of addressing climate change, the replies vary considerably. 102 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:22,970 Even suggesting what should be done about climate change is the biggest threat for mankind we have right now. 103 00:11:22,970 --> 00:11:26,510 For me right now, the most important thing would be finding revoiced. 104 00:11:26,510 --> 00:11:34,400 I really like European countries to move towards electric cars, cancelling all the subsidies to the mid and fossil fuel industries. 105 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:41,570 If we don't reset our economies and our societies on a sustainable peace in the next couple of years, 106 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:54,670 it will be very difficult for our kids to set it right. I kind of dream about this eco continent and I think it's possible. 107 00:11:54,670 --> 00:12:01,480 A question I was wondering about while considering these differences in what different 108 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,220 age groups are willing to give up or willing to commit to for climate action, 109 00:12:06,220 --> 00:12:15,260 and you point to a number of these differences. And in previous episodes, we've talked about this APC model, age, period and cohort. 110 00:12:15,260 --> 00:12:23,230 So kind of trying to think about what is the driving factor behind certain tendencies or certain differences. 111 00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:30,160 And I wonder whether you have a thought about whether these differences that you've observed in the data might be more aged, 112 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,920 maybe more period, or might be more cohort. 113 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:41,680 Obviously, you know, it's hard to know the future, but will Europeans who are young today still have these tendencies in 20 years? 114 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:50,480 I mean, no one knows. But do you see a trend or do you have an intuition about what's driving these changes between the generation today? 115 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:58,700 I mean, just looking at our data, I don't think it's that plausible target age just because the differences are just too small. 116 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:04,280 And it's also if we look at the actions like what kind of actions are Europeans willing to take? 117 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,640 It's not that young or Europeans are more willing to take one action than older Europeans. 118 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:17,510 So it just seems very much down to like personal preferences and lifestyle as well. 119 00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:22,580 Cohort. I don't know what you think about that, but I'm not quite sure we can tell about that yet. 120 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:26,320 So right now it seems to be looking like a period effect. 121 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:34,350 So in one respect in which young Europeans seem to differ from older generations is on climate action. 122 00:13:34,350 --> 00:13:43,440 Younger Europeans are more in favour of strong climate change interventions, such as restricting diets in public spaces and car use. 123 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:52,430 Nevertheless, they tend to not be more supportive of certain restrictions, things like banning short haul flights. 124 00:13:52,430 --> 00:13:57,950 So restrictions that directly affect their lifestyle. 125 00:13:57,950 --> 00:14:01,970 Did this disappoint you or did you expect a different result here? 126 00:14:01,970 --> 00:14:08,590 How do you make sense of this apparent contradiction? And then how you feel about the victory? 127 00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:17,410 Well, I wasn't that disappointed by it, because I think a lot of the time there's expectations that young Europeans care about climate change. 128 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:20,710 What are you willing to do more than older people? 129 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:26,860 To me is a bit unfair because I feel like everybody who cares about climate change should be willing to take action. 130 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:34,450 And also, I think this idea very much stems from the climate youth movement or the climate for you for free distribution. 131 00:14:34,450 --> 00:14:41,980 And I think with these specific groups, it has been shown that they are willing to accept restrictions. 132 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:49,540 But of course, you can't extend this to every single young person in Europe who isn't necessarily part of that group. 133 00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:56,290 I mean, from a marketing perspective, I guess we could have all hoped for a result of saying that 90 percent of young 134 00:14:56,290 --> 00:15:00,190 Europeans want to ban short haul flights because that would have been so catchy. 135 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:04,990 And I think when we look at the movement in Europe for young Europeans is especially important to have 136 00:15:04,990 --> 00:15:09,530 these options of short haul flights because they just using it so much also for their personal life. 137 00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:13,750 So I think it just realistic that many of them don't want to give up on that easily. 138 00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:17,020 And in the same instance, I think if you look at older generations, 139 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:24,190 they're just way more attached to the option of having the ability to drive a car and don't increase petrol prices and stuff like that. 140 00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:31,510 So I think it's just normal that every generation has different preferences and what is closest to their lifestyle at the moment. 141 00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:38,700 But yes, I think it would have been easier for us if we would have seen more clear. 142 00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:44,830 Directions of what which generation is open to give up or make a compromise? 143 00:15:44,830 --> 00:15:54,390 Then how did you come to the conclusion that so based on the research findings from our surveys and other other studies, 144 00:15:54,390 --> 00:16:03,120 that young Europeans seem to favour more governmental action than individual contributions or measures? 145 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,710 I'm not sure of their favourite governmental action over individual action, 146 00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:16,230 especially if you ask who is primarily responsible for taking action at the individual level is very similar across different age groups. 147 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:19,080 But or we see less like a slight diversification. 148 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:25,110 So younger Europeans are more likely to say there are several different types of actors like individuals, 149 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:30,510 national government, local governments, etc, are responsible for taking action. 150 00:16:30,510 --> 00:16:39,420 But the question is, what is this connected to? So we have this one big result that we like to talk about quite often, 151 00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:47,250 which is that young Europeans believe that authoritarian states are better equipped than democracies to tackle the climate crisis. 152 00:16:47,250 --> 00:16:54,660 So in our polling, this came up as fifty three percent of young Europeans, which is quite the finding. 153 00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:56,590 But then the question is, what is this about? 154 00:16:56,590 --> 00:17:04,860 And actually that is that there's been a similar study on Fridays for future activists when I went to Friday 155 00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:12,720 for future protests and asked people very similar question and that the result was quite similar again. 156 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,440 And they also and we agree with that. 157 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:26,490 They they also think that this doesn't necessarily mean that young people favour non democracies or authoritarian states, but instead, 158 00:17:26,490 --> 00:17:37,080 it is more likely to mean that young people are getting a little bit impatient with the inaction that they have seen on climate change. 159 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:43,650 Yeah, that that's probably one of the research findings that most surprised all of us in this project. 160 00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:50,070 But that tentative explanation has also come up in other conversations with other authors 161 00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:56,370 that this is probably more an expression of the frustration with democratic procedures. 162 00:17:56,370 --> 00:18:01,080 I think it's also super important for our chapter to to be sure about that, 163 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:08,070 that we should not be disappointed by young Europeans or Europeans in general to maybe feel 164 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:13,560 that authoritarian regimes are more capable of fighting something like climate change. 165 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:19,780 But I think it should rather be a warning sign to to all our politicians and systems that we require 166 00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:25,530 a bit more action to avoid people in the future becoming too disappointed by politics in general. 167 00:18:25,530 --> 00:18:29,280 Because I think you can really put that onto all the chapters we have worked on, 168 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:35,610 all areas that we talked about from climate change to refugees through social policy to free movement, 169 00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:42,270 that if the people get more and more disappointed, what politics can offer them as solutions and actions, 170 00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:48,270 they would just feel that our systems are not equipped enough to face the problems of our time. 171 00:18:48,270 --> 00:18:50,490 So I think that's really important thing that you just said, 172 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:58,980 that we are aware of that tendency and do not just see it as a sign that young Europeans might not understand a system good enough or whatever, 173 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:06,480 but rather that we need to act more and maybe quicker and become more agile and our political thinking as well. 174 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,660 Yes, and I'm not sure I'm also sharing my reaction here. 175 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:19,380 We've just come out are we're still coming out of a worldwide crisis and we've seen democracies taking immediate action, 176 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:26,130 bypassing the typical normal day mechanisms that we usually have because of the urgency of the situation. 177 00:19:26,130 --> 00:19:29,640 So, again, I think from a young Europeans perspective, 178 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:39,930 the urgency of this crisis calls for similar action that is perfectly within the possibilities within a democracy. 179 00:19:39,930 --> 00:19:50,940 So just now mentioned this kind of frustration towards democracies and before going more into the details of what the EU is doing, 180 00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:58,170 I I thought to ask for a bit of your reflection on this frustration directed towards the EU. 181 00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:06,300 And you mentioned that there is a more radical critique of the EU despite its effort to have a green deal, 182 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:08,970 et cetera, citing, for example, George Monbiot, 183 00:20:08,970 --> 00:20:19,950 who has talked about the collusion between national governments and EU institutions and corporate interests that really hinder climate action. 184 00:20:19,950 --> 00:20:26,040 I just wonder for yourselves working on this, did it make you more or less sympathetic towards that argument? 185 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:32,850 I looked a bit into what judge for me also said about this thing that especially in in the climate policy area, 186 00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:40,050 he feels that national governments can hide behind what the EU is doing, what the EU institutions are doing. 187 00:20:40,050 --> 00:20:42,870 And I think that is indeed a true thing. 188 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:51,750 But I think it's a thing that applies to all policy areas in Europe and just calls to this voice that whenever something is going bad, 189 00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:56,490 you can also critique the EU about it, because obviously they could also do a different. 190 00:20:56,490 --> 00:21:03,960 But then again, obviously, national governments could also do more that do not need to hide behind whatever the EU is doing or not doing. 191 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:10,440 So I think the general critique of this big EU thing that George Monbiot brings forward, 192 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,140 I think rings true to everyone who deals a bit more with the EU and its inner workings. 193 00:21:16,140 --> 00:21:20,560 But I think it's also a bit too easy to say that that is the general problem of the policy area. 194 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,560 Yeah, it's I think it's a tricky question, 195 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:30,220 but there are certain things like having researched looked into this for this chapter that just sometimes difficult to understand, 196 00:21:30,220 --> 00:21:35,340 like especially, for example, the lack of reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. 197 00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:40,800 And then also I think the European Parliament failed to protect peatlands, 198 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,780 which store a significant amount of CO2, which is then released through the lands, are drained. 199 00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:54,990 Like there are some specific things like these that that make you question do you a bit more than before? 200 00:21:54,990 --> 00:22:08,220 Perhaps because I just from a personal standpoint, difficult to comprehend because they don't match the ambition of the green deal. 201 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:14,610 Many critics of the EU recognise how much it is already doing with regard to solving climate change, 202 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:19,810 what they are critical of is how environmental policies are pursued. 203 00:22:19,810 --> 00:22:27,150 Listen to Chris Koski, the mayor of Wasilla, on how EU funds are used to address climate change. 204 00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:31,020 But that needs the help from the European Union not only to the country, 205 00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:35,440 but also to the cities and regions, so that we are fighting for direct access to your money. 206 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:43,590 Because what I'm afraid is that the government will use political criteria to redistribute money from from the EU funds, 207 00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:50,180 and then it would be very difficult for us in the cities to confront climate change. 208 00:22:50,180 --> 00:22:54,980 So we're now moving into the topic of what the EU is and is not doing, 209 00:22:54,980 --> 00:23:06,110 and one finding that came across very clearly in the previous section is that most Europeans would like to see net zero carbon emissions by 20, 210 00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:14,090 30, or at least by 2040. And that goal for the EU is currently set at 20 50. 211 00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:20,750 Even if this is a case, is the EU doing enough to achieve this goal by then, by 2050? 212 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:22,250 So if you just look at the goal, 213 00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:30,470 I think it's one of the most prominent facts to illustrate the discrepancy between what the Europeans want and what the EU is doing. 214 00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:36,440 Then again, I would say as long as the EU would really achieve the 2050 goal, I think nobody would really complain. 215 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,750 So if they are sticking to a great pathway, follow up on every action and achieve that by 2050, 216 00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:47,180 I think everyone would be happier in the end than if they would set the goal to 20 30, 217 00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:52,020 which is completely impossible at the current state of affairs and what we're doing. 218 00:23:52,020 --> 00:24:01,190 So from that realistic position, I think it should be fine. But then again, looking at what the EU is doing currently and what we wrote in the report, 219 00:24:01,190 --> 00:24:07,550 we all kind of share the feeling that it is not enough yet to really achieve 20, 50 goals. 220 00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:12,920 And also maybe that's important to mention that you also set itself the goal that by 2030 221 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,550 we're supposed to reduce the net greenhouse gas emissions already by fifty five percent. 222 00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:24,320 So to have a half way point and at the moment it doesn't really seem that the actions that we're taking are enough, 223 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,780 although there's a lot of political talk around the European green deal and everything that the EU is doing. 224 00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:36,170 When you really look into detailed criticisms, it seems that they could definitely do more. 225 00:24:36,170 --> 00:24:43,790 Yeah, I think also the the worrying thing is that organisations that fight for climate action and have been doing so for a long time, 226 00:24:43,790 --> 00:24:45,710 like Greenpeace, say it's not enough. 227 00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:56,180 And as those individuals, we obviously experts on this, especially since neither of us study climate change from it, not social science perspective. 228 00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:57,740 But I think that is the most worrying. 229 00:24:57,740 --> 00:25:05,060 And also, for example, the European Parliament wanted to go further and then the European Commission and for example, 230 00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:08,870 I think the current target for 20, 30 is fifty five percent. 231 00:25:08,870 --> 00:25:17,600 And the European Parliament was aiming for 60 percent. And the Green faction in the European Parliament was aiming for sixty five percent. 232 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:29,720 Do you think that the political will towards more climate action may have shifted after all the emergency action we saw with the covid-19 crisis? 233 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:38,840 So in order to address that crisis, we saw flights being stopped all over the world. 234 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:45,800 This might have impacted at least travelling habits, I think a lot more every time I commute somewhere. 235 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,390 Do I really need to go there? Do I really need to go by a car? 236 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:56,990 What are your personal thoughts? I mean, having come through this crisis, I know that the chapter was written as this was happening. 237 00:25:56,990 --> 00:26:02,000 Maybe I can stop because I looked again at the number that also appears in our report where we 238 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:09,560 talked about the post pandemic recovery fund that you set up to fight the effects of cold in Europe. 239 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:16,880 And they announced last year that 40 percent of that fund is supposed to only go into the green transition. 240 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:22,340 So it's about two point sixty five billion. And I was looking at the number and was feeling it quite that's quite a lot. 241 00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:30,410 And if that's just going into green transition, so not finding any other effects of covid, but particularly into that area, that seems quite good. 242 00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:34,210 But then I was wondering, why is it only set at 40 percent? 243 00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:41,390 Does that mean that 60 percent of that money goes into recovering our economy in a dirty way? 244 00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:50,810 So not in a green way? I have to admit, I haven't looked into that in more detail, but I'm just wondering whether the commitment of our politicians, 245 00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:57,830 of our system, of every one of us has really shifted now to 100 percent towards climate action. 246 00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:07,040 Or if we were always also reminded by that crisis that there are other areas of importance on social policy, jobs, health system, 247 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:15,260 education, digitalisation, that we feel that climate policies rather pushed to the back because now we have way more urgent stuff to do. 248 00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:20,330 Although I would agree with you on obviously that on a personal level, we all changed our habits, 249 00:27:20,330 --> 00:27:30,980 but I'm not 100 percent convinced that that will actually be done on political level as well. 250 00:27:30,980 --> 00:27:35,870 Many of our interviewees acknowledged that the EU has taken climate change seriously, 251 00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:42,590 but they believe that it is not doing enough to address it and that it has untapped potential to do so. 252 00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:47,690 Nora Nordström, a researcher in Finland, shares the sentiment. 253 00:27:47,690 --> 00:27:49,960 I think the biggest burning. 254 00:27:49,960 --> 00:28:00,670 Of our generation or our time in climate change, and it's such a big problem that one nation can't really fight against that in an efficient way. 255 00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:07,120 So I think that's really a field or a topic where you have a lot to offer. 256 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:24,220 But I don't see that you is doing enough. So I would like to see you really committing to a carbon free society by 2030. 257 00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:35,710 So one of the aspects that we've mentioned just now is this feeling that many have that the EU is not doing enough. 258 00:28:35,710 --> 00:28:38,500 And you raised one specific point, 259 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:47,050 which is the accusation that the EU is actually engaging in greenwashing depending on how the categories of climate action or set. 260 00:28:47,050 --> 00:28:54,700 Could you just say a bit more about what these arguments are about greenwashing and how they 261 00:28:54,700 --> 00:29:01,120 relate to the institutional framework of how the EU classifies degrees of climate action, 262 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:10,570 for example? Yeah, it's quite interesting. When I looked at the report again, I specifically jumped into one part that we also wrote about. 263 00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:17,500 It's the European Green Delts Investment Plan, which I think in some of our interviews and also the webinar, 264 00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:23,290 this criticism of greenwashing came up quite publicly, although I would reframe you a bit. 265 00:29:23,290 --> 00:29:29,440 It's not that the EU engages in greenwashing activities. I think that's a bit too far taken. 266 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,410 But it's rather that it seems are some politicians and activists that we have interviewed have the perception 267 00:29:35,410 --> 00:29:42,700 that the regulations of the EU offer too many loopholes for exactly this practise of greenwashing. 268 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:52,240 So with this European green investment plan, there is, for example, the problem that Wolfgang Minggao pointed out in one of the webinars, 269 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,070 because he said that the categories that are set up to finance green investments. 270 00:29:57,070 --> 00:30:03,910 So what does count as a green investment itself are aiding countries in green washing their recovery plan. 271 00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:12,100 So because it offers too many loopholes that allow for mismanagement of funds and decrease their impact. 272 00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,480 And I think in this context, 273 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:23,380 it's also important what we talked about with the mayor of Warsaw because he pointed with his criticism to a potential solution, I would say, 274 00:30:23,380 --> 00:30:32,830 because he says that with this green DIA's investment plan that currently allows for these loopholes and greenwashing opportunities, 275 00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:35,440 the main problem is that it's organised from European level. 276 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:45,340 And he advocates for more direct investments on local level so that cities that regions that, for example, his city where he's made of, 277 00:30:45,340 --> 00:30:49,870 that they get funded directly if they have great initiatives towards a green 278 00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:55,360 transition so that it's more direct funding that doesn't offer this supranational 279 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:04,480 European level mismanagement because there are just too many bureaucratic loopholes that could be misused if they would be wanted to be misused. 280 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:11,170 Before we go into the many recommendations you make about what the EU should do about climate change. 281 00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:22,180 I was wondering, you know, I can I can anticipate some critics of the euro sceptics or people who are critical of too much governmental intervention. 282 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:28,570 What would you say to anyone who either thinks that empowering the EU or the 283 00:31:28,570 --> 00:31:34,570 EU being so in preventive and what comes to climate change or the environment 284 00:31:34,570 --> 00:31:47,320 may be even more detrimental to state autonomy in the EU or that it may inhibit private initiative solutions towards protecting the environment? 285 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,430 To some degree, discretion reminds me of parallels to the pandemic. 286 00:31:51,430 --> 00:32:00,190 And I'm personally at the moment not very fond of waiting for individuals to take their own responsible actions, 287 00:32:00,190 --> 00:32:06,910 because especially in the more liberal countries or countries that like to portray themselves as especially liberal, 288 00:32:06,910 --> 00:32:15,490 such as the UK and Switzerland, two countries that I happen to know quite well now, they haven't really worked that well, growth to come in. 289 00:32:15,490 --> 00:32:25,000 And so I think this this connects to the impatience young Europeans and I can talk maybe in the plural sense we have, 290 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,830 because it's just too late to wait for private action. 291 00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:39,890 Maybe would have been something to think about 30 or 40 years ago, but I don't think now is the time anymore. 292 00:32:39,890 --> 00:32:47,820 Maybe specifically in the area of climate policy. I always have the perception because I have also rather liberal background, honestly, 293 00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:53,180 so I have never been a fan of banning anything or not allowing people to do something. 294 00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:57,590 So I also had a lot of fights when we included our what we will talk about later. 295 00:32:57,590 --> 00:33:01,070 I assume the recommendation to ban the short haul flights, 296 00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:08,450 because it's for me always is to waste word that obviously at the same time we're banning something we have to to improve the options. 297 00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:15,050 And I say, like, honestly, we don't need to necessarily been something of the options as the alternative are way better. 298 00:33:15,050 --> 00:33:18,230 But currently, for example, trains are just so bad. 299 00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:26,630 Our train networks across countries are just not equipped to really handle the travel requirements and travel wishes of Europeans. 300 00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:36,500 So I think what you were hinting with your question maybe is also that it doesn't take away individual responsibility or the autonomy of the states. 301 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:40,000 But I think it should just illustrate that we need all kind of action. 302 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:49,700 So we need regulations at European level. We need actions at national level to improve system, to improve offers of the state and the EU, 303 00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,180 to then actually enhance the individual actions of people, 304 00:33:53,180 --> 00:33:58,700 that they take the right options and right decisions, in our opinion, obviously the right actions. 305 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:06,050 So I think we need all kinds of activities and not just take away the responsibility of the individual of the state by European actions, 306 00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:11,810 but just become more active through all approaches and methods that we have currently. 307 00:34:11,810 --> 00:34:23,780 And that we interviewed Janusz Kelly, a Hungarian economist and policy expert. 308 00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:27,920 He is one of many young Europeans who believe that successfully addressing climate 309 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:34,070 change is of a global challenge beyond the capabilities of national governments. 310 00:34:34,070 --> 00:34:40,820 Deal with the climate change or energy efficiency programmes. 311 00:34:40,820 --> 00:34:47,330 I think it's a very challenging area. We have to find the right answers. 312 00:34:47,330 --> 00:34:52,880 We have to find the right common answers on European level because it's not a national level problem. 313 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:59,390 It's in Europe, it's a global problem. So we have to have to be united. 314 00:34:59,390 --> 00:35:12,240 We have to unite in an opinion or in an action plan or something like that. 315 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:18,540 So before getting into some of these specific recommendations you make about what the EU should do. 316 00:35:18,540 --> 00:35:30,450 There was a passage that was very thought provoking for me in which you discussed the concept of net zero coming out of accounting, 317 00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:41,460 but raise a concern that net zero might not be such a perfect and flawless concept as we might imagine. 318 00:35:41,460 --> 00:35:45,390 And it really depends on how you think about and measure the benefits and the costs. 319 00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:51,450 So could you just expand a bit on what you see is complicated or problematic about the 320 00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:55,110 concept of net zero and how it links up with some of the other things we've been discussing? 321 00:35:55,110 --> 00:36:01,080 Yeah, so basically this builds on an idea about a green Greenpeace European Union, but not just them. 322 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,130 So you can also see it into critique of great cartoon work, for example, 323 00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:13,080 when she's criticising the European climate action goals and laws and everything else they've come up with. 324 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:21,420 And so basically, it's about how carbon offsetting is not enough because carbon emissions do harm the environment, 325 00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:29,400 even if you come up with one hundred forest bills, which will then deduct from that carbon emission. 326 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:35,700 So that's why it is argued that this is a form of accounting logic that you say, OK, 327 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:42,240 we admit that much, and then the only thing we have to do is have we have to deduct this movement. 328 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:51,840 And that is actually like a part of a long debate also within the EU that has played out in the past between the parliament and the commission, 329 00:36:51,840 --> 00:37:00,130 because obviously offsetting is a lot easier than reducing emissions. 330 00:37:00,130 --> 00:37:05,890 You've mentioned earlier railway infrastructure as something that needs a lot of 331 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:10,870 investment in order for there to be an alternative to short haul flights within the EU. 332 00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:15,540 This is reflected in your recommendations. Would you like to talk a little bit about that? 333 00:37:15,540 --> 00:37:20,880 It's happy to do that because I think it's one of the most important recommendations 334 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,570 considering the attention that the ban of short haul flights obviously gets, 335 00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:28,140 because we've got the second recommendation that would not make any sense. 336 00:37:28,140 --> 00:37:33,480 So currently, the main problem is there is no international cooperation in our radwaste systems. 337 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,240 Of course, they try in some certain bits and pieces, 338 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:43,590 but whether try to travel across more than one or two borders that are too obvious, they noticed the problems there. 339 00:37:43,590 --> 00:37:52,050 So we decided that it is one of the key recommendations that that we would demand you to do, which would be short term, obviously, 340 00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:57,030 that we need to enable and more easy to access online booking system, 341 00:37:57,030 --> 00:38:02,520 because currently you have to book your German trains there via the German Deutsche Bon and via the Swiss. 342 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:09,090 You can book the Swiss tickets and the Austrian the Austrian tickets. But it's super difficult to to book across European ticket. 343 00:38:09,090 --> 00:38:14,910 So that should and could be enabled rather easily on the short term, in our opinion. 344 00:38:14,910 --> 00:38:21,420 Then obviously in the long term it would require more capital invest because the EU needs to support a large 345 00:38:21,420 --> 00:38:30,810 scale expansion of our continental European railway system and then also in the next step subsidise train fares, 346 00:38:30,810 --> 00:38:38,280 because obviously it needs to become cheaper in comparison to the short haul flights that are currently on offer. 347 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:48,060 So in that way, we also think it could become a new recognisable European project, because considering also the other chapters, 348 00:38:48,060 --> 00:38:56,940 European movement and the movement across countries in Europe is so important for identifying with the whole European project that 349 00:38:56,940 --> 00:39:06,690 we think that a common European railway system would much improve the whole idea of living and working together as Europeans. 350 00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:11,980 So we think that's really a key European project that the EU should work towards to. 351 00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:16,540 Yeah, I agree with that and also it actually reminds me of something we talked about before, 352 00:39:16,540 --> 00:39:20,470 like the pandemic, making us feel more hopeful about things. 353 00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:26,530 And I think actually thinking about train connexions maybe a little bit, because at least in Germany, 354 00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:32,950 Switzerland and Austria, some train connexions have been picked up again in the past, 355 00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:39,760 and not just necessarily because of the pandemic, but in the last few years we've seen especially night trains, 356 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,190 interestingly enough, which were closed down maybe five or 10 years ago, come up again. 357 00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:53,470 So that kind of like reviving previous night train connexions and making them happen again, which is nice to see. 358 00:39:53,470 --> 00:39:58,090 Maybe on a side note as well here, my brother just took a train back from here. 359 00:39:58,090 --> 00:40:02,830 So we in the southern part of Switzerland, really the southern Italian part, 360 00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:09,790 and he took a train back eight hours to the north to our whole place because the flights are not on offer at the moment. 361 00:40:09,790 --> 00:40:16,900 So back in the past, you could travel from three or four different airports in northern Italy, regions around Milan. 362 00:40:16,900 --> 00:40:24,340 And obviously there were planes like four or five a day. But currently due to the epidemic, there's only one usually, and it's super expensive. 363 00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:31,480 So he voluntarily took a train ticket. So I think it's just nice to see that it all depends on demand and offer on the side. 364 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,290 So the system is already in SpaceX there. 365 00:40:35,290 --> 00:40:42,790 We just really need to invest and make it easy for people to see it as a valuable option for everyone. 366 00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:48,640 Our interviews with Europeans from different generations are essential component of the Europe Stories project. 367 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:55,300 You can explore their answers about their formative best and worst moments on our website, European Moments Dotcom. 368 00:40:55,300 --> 00:41:00,360 Several of those moments mentioned throughout this episode are linked in the description. 369 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:07,150 As far as I understand, the recommendations that come at the end of the chapter followed from some of the very 370 00:41:07,150 --> 00:41:13,450 strong suggestions we get from the polling results that climate action is very urgent, 371 00:41:13,450 --> 00:41:18,450 important for young Europeans. There is a striking finding that. 372 00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:23,340 Most Europeans, fifty eight percent, and this is in our March 2020 polling, 373 00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:31,290 want the EU to be carbon neutral by 2030 and an additional wanting carbon neutrality by 2040. 374 00:41:31,290 --> 00:41:36,300 But we've also discussed a number of trade offs and conditions in terms of transport infrastructure, 375 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:42,780 in terms of democracy, in terms of jobs and economic well-being. 376 00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:50,580 And I'm curious for for you as a chapter authors whether the interviews or other 377 00:41:50,580 --> 00:41:56,160 research findings help you to contextualise and see the nuance in the poll findings, 378 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:06,870 because the poll findings by themselves seem to suggest a very aggressive desire for carbon neutrality as soon as possible over a majority for 2030. 379 00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:12,390 But there are all these other trade offs and tension. So I wonder if the other kinds of material, 380 00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:20,040 the other empirical material we have helps you to see the nuances and dig a bit deeper into the trade offs and the tensions. 381 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,420 Yeah, I'm not even sure we need, like other studies to see this tension, 382 00:42:24,420 --> 00:42:28,380 because if we look at the data that we have, yes, that's the size of our lunch there. 383 00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:34,590 But it's mainly there when you ask people about by when do you want to have achieved that zero? 384 00:42:34,590 --> 00:42:40,020 And then if you look at the actions, they're actually not that great. And I'm not saying I would be better. 385 00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:50,370 I don't think I am. But yeah, it's always obviously harder to have these trade offs affect yourself than someone else. 386 00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:55,770 So I think it's going to be an issue that we will struggle for as long as we have an issue of climate change. 387 00:42:55,770 --> 00:43:00,450 So that's going to be an issue for a very long time since we all social science students, 388 00:43:00,450 --> 00:43:05,480 or at least Rayonier, I think we are quite aware of results that come from polls. 389 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:12,000 So it's it's very much easier to say in a poll when you have to say yes or no towards more actions or less actions, 390 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:19,500 to say that instead of really contextualising what you're willing to give up, what are you willing to compromise for such a cost? 391 00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:23,250 So I think obviously what you asked, you have to contextualise it. 392 00:43:23,250 --> 00:43:31,020 And I think that's also so great from our material to consider the interviews and the self interview features as well, 393 00:43:31,020 --> 00:43:39,390 the reports that I mentioned so frequently. So I think it's just really valuable to look at all the sources to get the broader understanding of 394 00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:45,540 what opinions and what kind of willingness is behind the answers that we found in the polls as well. 395 00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:54,750 You say a lot about banning the short haul flights, but you have many interesting solutions, specific solutions about avoiding short haul flights. 396 00:43:54,750 --> 00:44:01,680 You want to speak a little bit more about that, how the how EU officials, for instance, can lead by example? 397 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:09,150 Yeah, I think I'll take that on, because as we've mentioned before, there's always some disagreements amongst even co-authors of a report as well. 398 00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:17,970 Actually, how this ended up in the report is quite the coincidental story because we want to weave our work and the team together. 399 00:44:17,970 --> 00:44:24,120 We wanted to ask questions that haven't necessarily been asked before and questions such as why 400 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:29,440 in favour of banning short haul flights without really defining what a short haul flight is, 401 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:39,060 have been asked in the past. And so coincidentally, I was aware of a suggestion by the Green Party in Switzerland. 402 00:44:39,060 --> 00:44:46,620 And so they had suggested that you ban flights which could be replaced by a train journey of under 12 hours. 403 00:44:46,620 --> 00:44:51,180 And at the beginning we thought it might be a bit of a radical question to ask, 404 00:44:51,180 --> 00:44:54,600 but then we thought, OK, it hasn't been asked before, so let's just try to act. 405 00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:01,860 And surprisingly, there was, I think, two thirds of support amongst our respondents for that suggestion. 406 00:45:01,860 --> 00:45:10,200 And I quite like the way it is phrased because it combines this issue of train rides not being 407 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,760 affordable enough or not being where it should be at the moment with banning total flights. 408 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,510 That idea is the only ban if the infrastructure is there. 409 00:45:18,510 --> 00:45:21,270 And yes, you can wait for the infrastructure to grow, 410 00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:26,940 but you can also kind of force it to grow by banning short haul flights of a certain distance first. 411 00:45:26,940 --> 00:45:34,230 And then if the train rides get better or to get faster and cheaper, you can potentially expand the ban. 412 00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:41,430 So it's obviously quite a radical suggestion. And, you know, if you want to implement it in practise, 413 00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:50,130 it actually goes quite complicated because then it gets easier to travel from Portugal to, I think, east of Germany. 414 00:45:50,130 --> 00:45:57,990 As far as I'm aware, you probably can't get in on the 12 hours then it gets if you travel from certain 415 00:45:57,990 --> 00:46:02,460 parts of France where you can actually travel to Poland by train and under 12 hours. 416 00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:07,440 So you end up with these curious cases that they've actually become quite complicated. 417 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,250 If you start thinking about equality and what is fair and what isn't. 418 00:46:11,250 --> 00:46:17,920 But I think it is definitely like an avenue to consider, a path to potentially take. 419 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:25,690 Because we've got a lot of people have been saying you have to improve train rides and you have to prove the train infrastructure in Europe, 420 00:46:25,690 --> 00:46:34,420 and it's just taking a very long time. And so sometimes some things just need to get pushed by something else in order for them to happen. 421 00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:44,740 But then in connexion to other chapters where we saw a great sense amongst young Europeans for equality and issues of social justice, 422 00:46:44,740 --> 00:46:55,170 we were thinking that the same way some universities don't allow their employees to travel a certain distance by plane anymore. 423 00:46:55,170 --> 00:47:02,170 I think it would make a lot of sense if this was also true for the E.U. So if at least like representatives of EU 424 00:47:02,170 --> 00:47:09,940 institutions would not do that anymore because a lot of them are affluent enough to be able to afford train fares now. 425 00:47:09,940 --> 00:47:21,850 Right. They might seem small on paper, but still some very strong symbolic actions I feel like are often lacking from the EU. 426 00:47:21,850 --> 00:47:27,940 Such examples could be followed by more Europeans if railway alternatives to air travel were widely accessible. 427 00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:33,820 Some would argue a good exotic Slovenian student in cognitive science suggests 428 00:47:33,820 --> 00:47:40,130 as much to do with the climate change that they want to make better trade. 429 00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:41,500 Connexions, for example, 430 00:47:41,500 --> 00:48:04,090 that people won't go by plane to the countries that are actually really accessible to go by train so that they would minimise the CO2 emissions. 431 00:48:04,090 --> 00:48:08,230 For both of you working on this Europe storage project, 432 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:19,760 I wonder whether you feel at this point more or less hopeful about European climate action or climate action in general. 433 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:28,400 I think one problem that at least I've come across is that it is very hard to follow everything 434 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:34,100 that you is doing on climate action because of it being a supranational institution. 435 00:48:34,100 --> 00:48:37,010 It's just a very complicated web of structures. 436 00:48:37,010 --> 00:48:45,920 And even once you understand most of it, and even once you have more than basic knowledge of the institutions, 437 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:52,790 it is incredibly hard, as one thought, to get information on the different debates and agreements. 438 00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:56,450 So not just because of the complicated nature of the institution, 439 00:48:56,450 --> 00:49:03,140 but also because of the reporting on the use of our Inish and even those news outlets that do report on the 440 00:49:03,140 --> 00:49:08,690 often their articles are rather brief and you can't necessarily always find the information you're looking for. 441 00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:14,360 And I think this is rather frustrating because looking at it from our perspective, 442 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:23,420 it then makes me wonder how difficult must it be for the average citizen to learn what you doing or what the EU is not doing? 443 00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:26,660 I felt so similar because when you looked at this. 444 00:49:26,660 --> 00:49:32,960 Wow, our ideas for the chapter, what the EU is doing or is not doing, you always feel like they're definitely not doing enough. 445 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,500 And it's so easy to criticise whatever we came up with. 446 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:44,870 I think it was also in the last webinar with the type of programme that we talked about green financing, thinking, OK, you should definitely do more, 447 00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:52,130 and that it's such an important area to really fund also the green transition and set an example by the EU and we all said, 448 00:49:52,130 --> 00:49:56,120 OK, we have to agree and put that in the report that EU is not doing enough there. 449 00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:02,720 And then we looked it up and there was a green bond standard just recently agreed by the EU exactly going into that direction. 450 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:09,320 So what I just said, the problem is also that we're just not aware of what the EU is actually already doing. 451 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:17,690 But then again, returning to Loukas question about more hopeful or less hopeful, I think even considering what the EU is already doing, 452 00:50:17,690 --> 00:50:25,790 I became a bit disappointed seeing that it's still not enough also to meet the demands and requirements of young Europeans, especially. 453 00:50:25,790 --> 00:50:29,360 So I think that was, for me, the biggest disappointment, 454 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:38,870 seeing the discrepancy between what young Europeans want and what the EU's currently offering, especially in the climate change area, I would say. 455 00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:42,080 Yeah, we seem to return to this issue constantly, 456 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:50,390 which is actually reflected in our democracy chapter about difficulty in communication and people being aware of what the EU does, 457 00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:56,180 how it works, what results can be attributed to its institutions actions. 458 00:50:56,180 --> 00:51:06,310 So, yeah, that's a very interesting connexion you draw with other aspects that this report reveals. 459 00:51:06,310 --> 00:51:10,630 Molly Scott Cato, former member of the European Parliament for the Green Party, 460 00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:17,320 emphasises the importance of democratic stability in the EU for it to effectively address climate change. 461 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,730 Obviously, climate change is right at the top of the agenda in terms of policy, 462 00:51:21,730 --> 00:51:26,290 but I think everything else we're trying to achieve will fail unless the European Union 463 00:51:26,290 --> 00:51:44,220 stabilises itself as a democratic project and stabilises the democracies within Europe. 464 00:51:44,220 --> 00:51:55,410 So switching gears a little bit, because you do mention what young Europeans want from the E.U., how has your view of your generation, 465 00:51:55,410 --> 00:52:00,840 our generation of young Europeans, changed while writing this report on climate or in fact, 466 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,710 on any I think, any other aspect of who young Europeans are at? 467 00:52:05,710 --> 00:52:13,890 Just to me personally, it's become obvious that we do, you know, live in our own social, economic or academic bubble. 468 00:52:13,890 --> 00:52:17,160 And that is especially the pulling out. 469 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:23,900 The thing that just shows what your lived experience might be is not necessarily what someone else's experiences is. 470 00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:28,920 And this is a very obvious thing. But it's different if you see it in the polling results. 471 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,060 For example, if you just look at our question and how often do Europeans fly? 472 00:52:33,060 --> 00:52:38,430 And in our polling, over 70 percent said they fly once a year or less. 473 00:52:38,430 --> 00:52:47,460 And then you realise, for example, that again, as academics, we're just we tend to be the more mobile population. 474 00:52:47,460 --> 00:52:53,670 Right. And this just does not reflect the experiences of a lot of other Europeans. 475 00:52:53,670 --> 00:53:01,230 But then also politically, you surround yourself with people who are more likely to think like you and polling, 476 00:53:01,230 --> 00:53:11,220 but also to show you that it's just very hard to to find common ground, especially if it comes to giving up individual freedoms and benefits. 477 00:53:11,220 --> 00:53:18,480 I think for me, the most impressive effect of contributing to this research was also Azria sight seeing 478 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:23,310 the diversity that you're just not aware of as long as you stick to your little paper. 479 00:53:23,310 --> 00:53:29,640 For me, that was primarily because I worked a lot with the set of interviews that we conducted and listen to all of them. 480 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:34,200 And it's so impressive to see the different realities people have in Europe. 481 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:39,720 And it's not between two young Europeans and older Europeans, but also just amongst young Europeans. 482 00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:44,070 It's so important. What is your background, where you're coming from? 483 00:53:44,070 --> 00:53:46,020 What were your experiences? 484 00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:54,130 I think my answers to the South into you just differs so much from a young European coming somewhere very far in the east of Europe. 485 00:53:54,130 --> 00:54:04,140 We're just having so many other decisive moments in their past that obviously also influenced their feelings of importance right now. 486 00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:10,890 So what you should do, what do you shouldn't do? So I think that was, for me, the most impressive thing also to be reminded of. 487 00:54:10,890 --> 00:54:16,260 Do you have any particular example of an interview in mind? 488 00:54:16,260 --> 00:54:23,670 Honestly, I don't have a particularly interview in mind. But for me, also, having studied history and politics, 489 00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:30,750 it was the most impressive thing to see the answers of people coming from former Soviet Union countries, 490 00:54:30,750 --> 00:54:41,490 because for them, moments like the the Orange Revolution or in the 60s and 50s revolutions and eastern countries are so much more important. 491 00:54:41,490 --> 00:54:46,170 Where I was like, yeah, that's a brief glimpse in my history book and I'm reminded of that. 492 00:54:46,170 --> 00:54:54,290 But for me, that has no importance of my European understanding on what I'm shaped of and what my understanding of Europe was. 493 00:54:54,290 --> 00:55:01,020 So I think that was for me sometimes, most surprisingly, when I had to ask our editors to at you moment, 494 00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:06,170 something you formative as a moment that I basically didn't even know what before I was like, 495 00:55:06,170 --> 00:55:09,750 OK, yeah, that really illustrates the difference that we are coming up with. 496 00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:21,490 But that was super impressive. To learn more about the different perceptions of your. 497 00:55:21,490 --> 00:55:28,330 Our guest today will read this and Victoria Hunza, a huge thanks to our podcast editor, 498 00:55:28,330 --> 00:55:36,190 Billy Kragen, our research manager, Luisa Miller, and our report Ed Professor Timothy Garton Ash. 499 00:55:36,190 --> 00:55:41,660 We're also grateful to our founders, the Swedish Nobel Foundation, the tight system and the system. 500 00:55:41,660 --> 00:55:47,360 Mercato for making the Europe Stories Project podcast, a special thank you to Ellen. 501 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,800 We've sent Lilly striker Maev Moynihan, 502 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:59,650 Sophie Verité and Victoria Hansell for contributing to the podcast production music by Unicorn Heads and Katzir. 503 00:55:59,650 --> 00:56:05,810 Finally, thank you to the whole Europe Stories Project Team. I'm your host and Martins. 504 00:56:05,810 --> 00:56:12,940 I'm your host. Lucasta, thank you for listening today. Join us for the next episode of the Europe Stories podcast and until then, 505 00:56:12,940 --> 00:56:31,268 you can find out more about our research project at European Moments Dotcom.