1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:13,350 Diana, hi, Lucas, how are you? I'm very well, I have been in a bit of a nostalgic mood recently and I'm connecting that with this episode. 2 00:00:13,350 --> 00:00:20,520 And it makes me think about when do you remember first hearing the word democracy? 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,260 Probably. And in school like elementary. 4 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:32,580 It's a concept that's such a part of our lives. It's citizens who value the democratic system, 5 00:00:32,580 --> 00:00:40,440 who are made aware at an early age that they're very lucky to be growing up in a time when their countries are democratic and truly democratic. 6 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:46,080 I think it's something that I introduced to to people when they're young. 7 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:59,840 I think that's my example. What about you? Yeah, I guess growing up in the 1990s, early 2000s, there were a lot of important events globally, 8 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:12,960 whether it's the fall of the Berlin Wall or Tiananmen, and I think that democracy definitely had a very specific resonance growing up in that. 9 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,010 Time and having an interest in politics and society. 10 00:01:17,010 --> 00:01:24,140 Do you remember the first time when the word democracy seemed to have a personal residence for you? 11 00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:25,940 This does not answer your question, 12 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:39,020 but perhaps it's close because obviously I turned out to study political theory and obviously democracy is a huge part of what we study. 13 00:01:39,020 --> 00:01:46,460 And the way I became interested in it, I guess, is this started very early because my my father, 14 00:01:46,460 --> 00:01:55,880 who was a pilot, he had been in the military and he was very interested in political theory on his own. 15 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:01,730 And he self-taught. He read a lot on the topic. And so we had a lot of conversations about that. 16 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:05,990 And I remember going to Athens with him in Greece in general, 17 00:02:05,990 --> 00:02:17,250 and we went to Sparta and he was very much into classical history and and we very much lived that trip with. 18 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:22,000 The Athenian democracy, the history of Athenian democracy of mind. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:28,980 So perhaps that's a personal connexion that's actually connected to travelling in Europe, by the way. 20 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:38,850 And it was a very vivid connexion with the past of European civilisation and how that concept has evolved to our days. 21 00:02:38,850 --> 00:02:43,110 Obviously, Athenian democracy is very different from democracy. 22 00:02:43,110 --> 00:02:50,580 So, yeah, actually, I started this answer without thinking there was a personal resonance or connexion to to the term. 23 00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:56,880 But obviously there is a very strong one. It's actually one of the fondest memories I have with my father is no longer with us. 24 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:09,000 Mm hmm. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that memory. It brings back one of my teenage memories of taking a trip through Germany and 25 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,780 the Czech Republic and Poland were a big theme of that trip was 1930s history, 26 00:03:15,780 --> 00:03:23,310 which is much less glorified than being in democracy, and rightly so. 27 00:03:23,310 --> 00:03:29,250 But yeah, I remember how much that trip made me think that. 28 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:37,860 These. Concepts of democracy and liberalism, for example, that are often glorified and populism and fascism, 29 00:03:37,860 --> 00:03:41,550 on the other hand, are often vilified in certain periods in history. 30 00:03:41,550 --> 00:03:46,050 They're also really intertwined, whether it's European history or further abroad. 31 00:03:46,050 --> 00:03:48,910 And, yeah, kind of. 32 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:58,840 It's it's tricky to try to hold on to these important concepts, but also understand that they're never quite as neat as we want them to be. 33 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:04,060 And that's I think that's a big part of what we're trying to get at with the polling and the interviews as well. 34 00:04:04,060 --> 00:04:09,370 Yes. And we see that today with I mean, democracy has become such. 35 00:04:09,370 --> 00:04:18,550 An accepted term that you mean branding something as undemocratic is the same as branding it negatively, 36 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:24,580 that even regimes that are clearly non-democratic brand themselves as democracies. 37 00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:33,490 Nonetheless, either it's a popular democracy in the past and more recently, how do they call it illiberal, right? 38 00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:36,640 Yeah, illiberal democracy. Exactly. 39 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:44,860 So much so that more recently, at least for people who are in our fields of politics and more specialised in these topics, 40 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:49,540 we tend to not refer to democracy just as democracy anymore. 41 00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:57,370 We usually prefaced it with liberal to distinguish it from these new systems that are branded as illiberal democracies. 42 00:04:57,370 --> 00:05:11,380 Mm hmm. How can these illiberal democracies or regimes, whatever they're called, are clearly straying from the core values of modern democracy? 43 00:05:11,380 --> 00:05:14,500 How are they compatible with the rest of the European Union? 44 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:27,280 And what can the European Union do so that its member states stay true to the commitment that was necessary for them to join in the first place? 45 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:34,580 This is a union in Democratic states. Absolutely, yeah, and it's yeah, 46 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:42,290 it's fantastic to get our two co-authors in this episode who have thought about this 47 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:48,560 very deeply to kind of second those questions before we introduce our guests today. 48 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:55,580 And I wanted to ask you one more thing, kind of from a totally opposite perspective. 49 00:05:55,580 --> 00:06:01,260 What would you miss if you lived in a society that was no longer a democratic? 50 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:05,450 I think. Fundamentally, perhaps freedom of speech. 51 00:06:05,450 --> 00:06:07,700 I think that undemocratic societies, I mean, 52 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:16,520 you obviously have regimes that are not democracies and you can always have the ideal of the benevolent dictator or ruler. 53 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:26,360 But assuming that that's typically not the case, to maintain a system where people fall into line different ideas. 54 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:32,430 Is that question. That system are usually sit down and and. 55 00:06:32,430 --> 00:06:39,660 And those ideas usually need a lot of space to breathe, so a lot of other connected ideas are also shut down. 56 00:06:39,660 --> 00:06:44,070 And what you end up having is censorship in one way or another, 57 00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:53,010 which in this day and age would be very easy given the technologies that we have and already see that in places like Saudi Arabia and China, 58 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:58,410 those technologies being used to control people and ultimately what they are saying think. 59 00:06:58,410 --> 00:07:06,370 How about you, I guess, your thoughts about freedom of speech and you think of how connected that freedom is with. 60 00:07:06,370 --> 00:07:15,430 An overall sense that society is something we participate in, that we never have total control of our environment, 61 00:07:15,430 --> 00:07:24,160 nor should we, but that it's really important to continue having those avenues to shape our lives. 62 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:33,220 And I think that one important ingredient of that is this ability to talk and to discuss and to say what you think. 63 00:07:33,220 --> 00:07:37,150 And I think partly that's really important in itself. 64 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:44,010 A partly it's really important because it sits at the foundation of so many. 65 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:54,120 Activities that bring us together to hash out our disagreements, to find common ground and to to think about what kind of society we want to live in. 66 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,430 So will we be talking about democracy in this interview? 67 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:06,030 One of our guests is Sophie Verité, who completed her end through here at Oxford, 68 00:08:06,030 --> 00:08:13,740 where she joined the project and is now a doctoral researcher at the Institute of Security and Global Affairs at my university. 69 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:19,560 Joseph Latter is an initial student in European politics and society at the University of Oxford. 70 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:25,830 Before coming to Oxford, Joseph studied political science and psychology at LSU Munich and worked at the Chair of 71 00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:32,310 International Relations at the Twister Shell Institute for Political Science in Munich. 72 00:08:32,310 --> 00:08:38,460 He is particularly interested in the effect of populism on liberal democracy in the state of democracy in the European Union. 73 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:42,720 And it was actually because of an essay that you wrote on this topic of 74 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:55,290 democracy in the European Union that led him to join us at the European project. 75 00:08:55,290 --> 00:09:05,280 Hello, I'm Timothy Garton Ash, welcome to the Europe Stories podcast, what the young Europeans want the European Union to do and to be. 76 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:06,630 Over the last three years, 77 00:09:06,630 --> 00:09:15,570 an amazing group of young Europeans have worked with me here at the European Studies Centre at Oxford University to answer this question. 78 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:19,110 And this podcast will present their findings. 79 00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:41,720 Hosts Onomatopoeic and Luckhurst say, have a series of conversations with the authors of our concluding report and give you their answers. 80 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:48,440 So I thought we might start Sophi and Yoseph by asking you about yourself and if you could 81 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:54,170 tell us a bit about your background and how you came to write this chapter on democracy. 82 00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:59,690 Sure. Well, it's an absolute pleasure to join you today for this podcast episode. 83 00:09:59,690 --> 00:10:06,140 I was a master student at Oxford University in European Politics and Society. 84 00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:16,610 My background is in political science and now I am doing a PhD in security and global affairs at Leiden University in the Netherlands. 85 00:10:16,610 --> 00:10:26,270 Hello, I'm 20, you guys from Amsterdam. And interestingly, it was an essay on democracy in the EU that got me into Oxford. 86 00:10:26,270 --> 00:10:37,460 And so that was the first time I had contact or I touched on this topic and it was a great honour to get this opportunity to go onto the set. 87 00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:45,080 If I could ask a follow up to that of all the different areas that are of interest to young Europeans, 88 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:52,610 including many of the other topics in this report, what is especially interesting to you about democracy? 89 00:10:52,610 --> 00:11:03,770 For me, I think it was less straightforward because actually my focus is on foreign affairs and international affairs and the EU's foreign policy. 90 00:11:03,770 --> 00:11:10,160 So I thought that that was the direction in which I was going and probably that was the content that I was going to be writing about. 91 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,260 But eventually I was asked to write with Joseph the chapter on Democracy. 92 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:22,460 And I think it made a lot of sense because my other focus is about this information and influence 93 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:30,800 operations and how certain actors try to manipulate certain things in the information space. 94 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:39,110 And so it makes a lot of sense to talk about democracy because that's really what information operations are affecting. 95 00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:47,360 It's democracy itself. So it wasn't straightforward for me to think about democracy in my work, but now that I have written this chapter, 96 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:54,890 I actually do really understand why they asked me to write about it, because it is at the core of my research. 97 00:11:54,890 --> 00:12:00,500 What about you, Joseph? I think it's at the very heart of the European Union as a project. 98 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:06,650 I think it's maybe the baseline that the European Union is a union of liberal democracies. 99 00:12:06,650 --> 00:12:10,100 And so it's one of the most fundamental topics. 100 00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:17,420 Our chapter really shows that democracy is such an important part of the European project that people take it for granted. 101 00:12:17,420 --> 00:12:23,030 They just like assume that it's always going to be there because it has always been there for young Europeans. 102 00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:29,640 It's so important that they don't even think they don't even imagine that it could go away when they. 103 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:35,130 But your chapter, younger Europeans, on the one hand, tend to take democracy for granted, 104 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:44,460 but on the other hand still very much value democracy and have a hard time conceiving of the EU without thinking of it as a democratic organisation. 105 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:52,740 Do you want to talk a little bit about how young Europeans perceive democracy perhaps differently from other generations? 106 00:12:52,740 --> 00:13:01,890 Yes, definitely. So, of course, democracy is important for young people and as I just explained, they take it for granted at the EU level. 107 00:13:01,890 --> 00:13:09,000 Although recently there has been some kind of disappointment or frustration because clearly young 108 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:16,230 Europeans aren't as satisfied with the way the EU is protecting democracy on the continent. 109 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:24,540 So fifty seven percent are saying that they are overall satisfied with the way democracy works in the EU. 110 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:33,270 But what this person doesn't really reflect is how much young people actually know about how democracy works in the EU. 111 00:13:33,270 --> 00:13:39,360 So how can they have a good assessment if they don't really know how democracy works in the EU? 112 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:47,490 When striking results that you cite in the report is that nearly half of young Europeans don't even know how MEPs are elected. 113 00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:52,470 So those are members of the European Parliament, is that correct? Yes, exactly. 114 00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:56,640 Most Europeans think that the presence of the European Parliament is of secondary importance and 115 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,230 most Europeans don't know how they are elected or they don't know that they are directly elected. 116 00:14:01,230 --> 00:14:07,750 But if half of Europeans don't even know that, how can they have an informed assessment of democracy in the EU? 117 00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:13,320 That's one of the first questions that we hit when writing this chapter. 118 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:20,550 And then actually when we when we were doing a little bit deeper and trying to understand where does this assessment come from? 119 00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:27,150 And we realised that the young Europeans don't really understand democracy as a set of procedures, 120 00:14:27,150 --> 00:14:32,820 but more as an output because they don't understand how the procedures work and they don't see the processes. 121 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:43,340 They're not really involved in that. They just look at the output, the end result, and then they assess whether that seems democratic to them or not. 122 00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:47,730 Yeah, I think I agree with what Sophie said. 123 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:57,090 But still, we shouldn't forget that young Europeans are more satisfied with the way the EU works than democracy works in the member states. 124 00:14:57,090 --> 00:15:02,160 We always talk about the lack of democracy at the European level, and it's of course, 125 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:09,960 it is concerning if the Europeans do not know how MEPs are elected or who gave the State of the Union address. 126 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:23,070 But still they are not that dissatisfied. And as we also think, sometimes not everything is going badly at the moment at the European level. 127 00:15:23,070 --> 00:15:28,770 But then to go back to your question, how do the younger generation see democracy differently? 128 00:15:28,770 --> 00:15:35,070 I think the younger generation sees it as a set of values that they want to see upheld, 129 00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:40,350 that they want to see reflected in policies in comparison to older generations, 130 00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:47,970 which we believe see democracy really as a set of procedures and a process. 131 00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:53,820 Our interviews with Europeans from different generations are a central component of the Europe Stories Project. 132 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:58,410 You can explore their answers about their formative best and worst moments on our website, 133 00:15:58,410 --> 00:16:03,210 European Moments, Dotcom, several of those moments mentioned throughout this episode. 134 00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:14,430 Harlington, the description. I think our discussion brings up what is often referred to as a democratic deficit at the European institutional level. 135 00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:22,830 But we might kind of want to really dig deeper into whether it's really a democratic deficit or rather perhaps a deficit and effective communication. 136 00:16:22,830 --> 00:16:29,100 One interviewee of ours, for example, Hardrock Fischer, who's the director of the British Museum, 137 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:35,070 emphasised the communication aspect of Democratic politics. 138 00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:37,260 And I wonder, as the chapter authors, 139 00:16:37,260 --> 00:16:44,730 how you evaluate the kind of relative weight of democratic deficit as an explanation versus kind of public communication. 140 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:46,830 It's sometimes a bit too, 141 00:16:46,830 --> 00:16:54,780 too short sighted just to look at whether there are elections and whether there is democracy based on elections at the European level. 142 00:16:54,780 --> 00:17:03,570 We made this distinction between the state of democracy and the supranational level to the state of democracy at the member state level. 143 00:17:03,570 --> 00:17:09,630 And while there is a big discussion about a European democratic deficit at the supranational level, 144 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:18,370 we do not really agree because we think the European Union is democratically legitimised because. 145 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:28,720 Member states decided to join the European Union, national parliaments who are democratically elected made this possible and there is accountability. 146 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,720 It's not always direct accountability through elections, but in the European Council, 147 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:43,180 there are national leaders who are legitimate because they are elected in their respective nation states. 148 00:17:43,180 --> 00:17:47,350 At the same time, we also argue in our report that there is a democratic deficit, 149 00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:52,600 but this one is more located at the member state level because as we all know, 150 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:59,500 there are some member states who are turning away from liberal values and democratic values. 151 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:05,470 And so we we think that we should really distinguish between these two levels here. 152 00:18:05,470 --> 00:18:14,470 This idea of a democratic deficit. So the idea that the EU isn't functioning democratically enough, 153 00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:24,130 I think it's a debate that's either academic and helpful in that sense to look from a theoretical point of view, what is democracy? 154 00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:28,750 What is an organisation that works democratically or not? What is the standard that we want to achieve? 155 00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:36,760 Is the EU above that or below it? It's an actual exercise to do and it's interesting to do for academic purposes. 156 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,440 But in reality, 157 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:47,770 I think that anyone who has a basic understanding of how democratic democracy works in the EU would agree that it is democratically legitimate it. 158 00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:53,320 So what do you think that there's such a widespread perception that there is a democratic deficit? 159 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:58,210 I mean, this is something that you hear even very well-informed academics in the social 160 00:18:58,210 --> 00:19:04,990 sciences who argue that maybe it's not an institutional argument or concern, 161 00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:14,990 but there is a sense that there is a democratic deficit. Can you, like, pinpoint what what exactly people are sensing here that's missing? 162 00:19:14,990 --> 00:19:21,960 Well, I think the debate exists precisely because there is no clear cut. 163 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,540 Agreed standard of what is enough in terms of democracy. 164 00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:33,930 There are many ways of defining democracy and precisely because there is no clear cut definition of what is. 165 00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:39,390 Legitimate and what isn't. There's always going to be some discussion, there's always going to be some disagreement. 166 00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:45,150 It's a very useful exercise to try to look at what are the assets and the weaknesses 167 00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,960 of the EU when it comes to democracy is to look at really what's working, 168 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:56,700 what's not, and to to assess it based on certain standards. So I think that that's why that debate still exists. 169 00:19:56,700 --> 00:20:04,050 And Joseph, still within the same question. What about Hartig phishers statement about the problem being communication? 170 00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:12,760 Might that help explain this sense of remoteness or, you know, the European Union not being really representative of its citizens? 171 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:18,850 I think it's not only the top of the EU, I completely agree with what Sophie said about the strategic communication, 172 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:20,770 but it's over the top of the member states. 173 00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:29,200 And if we look at the big member states, for example, we are having elections soon here in Germany and Europe doesn't play a role. 174 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:38,110 So the whole issue of European integration and European affairs with Europe, do we want it's a very secondary or very minor issue. 175 00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:45,850 And I think it doesn't really make sense anymore because major decisions are made in Brussels and Strasbourg. 176 00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:57,010 And if we really want the European Union to work and also citizens to develop a feeling as Europeans and being invested in European democracy, 177 00:20:57,010 --> 00:21:11,470 it's also the job of national governments to promote that and to give up a bit of their own ownership of politics and the national realm. 178 00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:19,400 The need for better communication between EU institutions and citizens came across in many interviews conducted within the Europe Stories Project. 179 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,880 When we talk to Holland Fisher, the director of the British Museum, he clearly expressed this concern. 180 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:32,170 The EU needs to make people understand what it is really about, 181 00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:42,970 and I think it has not been very strong and it has not been very successful in making its members, 182 00:21:42,970 --> 00:22:04,310 all the citizens of the EU, really understand the values, the values the EU is based on and the values it has created. 183 00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:15,910 If we focus on the theme of communication for a second, it seems to relate to some of the chapter proposals on civic engagement and civic education. 184 00:22:15,910 --> 00:22:26,240 One of the very interesting suggestions at the end of the chapter is that Europeans older than 16 should be given an Interrail pass. 185 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,010 What will this do? What will this achieve? Yes, 186 00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:38,890 it's one of our key recommendations because we think that this would really contribute to building a European 187 00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:47,170 public sphere and building a European public sphere would contribute to building a more fruitful democracy. 188 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:51,790 So let me unpack some of these terms, because it might be a little bit tricky to understand. 189 00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:57,820 But so a European public sphere is this kind of common space where discussions are 190 00:22:57,820 --> 00:23:02,650 being held and people communicate and deliberate about what they want for Europe. 191 00:23:02,650 --> 00:23:10,810 That's the idea of a European public sphere and having an Interrail passport for young people more accessible. 192 00:23:10,810 --> 00:23:14,620 So like for free for anyone about 18, for instance, 193 00:23:14,620 --> 00:23:24,220 would really allow young people to travel and get to know people in different parts of Europe and have these connexions. 194 00:23:24,220 --> 00:23:26,180 And having this connexions here, 195 00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:33,190 here and there would really help build that network and that public sphere that really connects people across borders. 196 00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:40,180 In the many interviews we did, we ask young Europeans, what was your formative European moment? 197 00:23:40,180 --> 00:23:47,110 And very often it is personal experience is it's something like Erasmus or Drivelling with interactive 198 00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:54,490 policies where you exactly meet so many people from different European countries and everything. 199 00:23:54,490 --> 00:24:01,990 But so if you just explained that about building a theoretical concept, again, a European public sphere, 200 00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:07,060 but it happens in your everyday life and you do not really notice it with an interior pass. 201 00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:13,060 And so we think that it's a very hands on recommendation that can be implemented very easily as well. 202 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:24,280 The EU knows this very well and knows that programmes such as Erasmus and Antaria really, really work and contribute to the EU as a project. 203 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,700 You know it because they have, for instance, recently had discovered a new programme. 204 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:37,090 So they would make already Interrail passes accessible to young people, but it was only in certain conditions and you had to apply for it. 205 00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:41,170 So what we say is that you cannot rely on people to apply it. 206 00:24:41,170 --> 00:24:45,400 You have to really give it to them in a very easy way so that they use it to. 207 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,680 What we say in the report is that an integral part should be given to every citizen turning 208 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,930 16 without an application process and valid for five years within the European Union. 209 00:24:55,930 --> 00:25:04,960 Yeah, and if I may just quickly add to that. So I had the privilege of conducting many of the interviews where I heard many young Europeans 210 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:10,870 citing their Erasmus experience or just travelling across Europe as a formative experience. 211 00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:19,310 And this is something that comes up in another chapter, the Freedom of Movement chapter, where your co-authors of the report, 212 00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:26,900 As and Luisa, reached the conclusion that there is a discrepancy between those who actually use their freedom of movement. 213 00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:33,460 Obviously, this is a right that is just to all European citizens, but not all of them use that freedom. 214 00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:40,750 And there's an apparent difference between those who do and how they feel about Europe and how European they feel. 215 00:25:40,750 --> 00:25:47,470 I think the majority of the people I interviewed who did have such experiences ultimately thought 216 00:25:47,470 --> 00:25:52,870 of themselves primarily as Europeans and only secondarily as nationals from their countries. 217 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:57,640 Not that these identities need to be in conflict at all, but they do think of themselves, 218 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,640 perhaps not even as Europeans necessarily, which is cosmopolitan. 219 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:07,000 And so it's a very important recommendation you make because it is important to emphasise how access to 220 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:21,610 this sort of opportunity matters in terms of the democratic participation that younger Europeans can have. 221 00:26:21,610 --> 00:26:29,050 Malgorzata Zurawski, a Polish events manager, is well aware of the formative potential of free movement. 222 00:26:29,050 --> 00:26:33,550 When asked what is the single most important thing the EU has done for her personally? 223 00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:43,660 Here is what she said. It's a freedom of movement is definitely one of the most important ones and how cheap and easy it has been. 224 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:51,700 And it is to travel to different countries and to meet different people and to have all those different experiences. 225 00:26:51,700 --> 00:27:10,940 And you have that cultural dialogue in between people from different countries within Europe. 226 00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:14,660 So pushing this thought about public sphere just a little further. 227 00:27:14,660 --> 00:27:25,760 The proposals for Interrail passes or for further resources to support schemes such as Erasmus seem to highlight 228 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:36,560 the continued role for physical exchange and physical travel as the foundation of identity and of communication. 229 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:46,300 Which raises, I think, some interesting questions about democracy in an age of globalisation as well as of digitisation. 230 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:52,750 In a time when so much of these exchanges are taking place over the Internet, 231 00:27:52,750 --> 00:27:59,950 so many of our political and economic ties are happening across borders without us travelling physically across borders, 232 00:27:59,950 --> 00:28:04,960 how do you understand why this kind of physical travel and exchange is still so foundational? 233 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:14,110 And conversely, what is insufficient about a new development such as the Internet to kind of create the the soil for a European public sphere? 234 00:28:14,110 --> 00:28:21,130 Younger generations have a different way of engaging with democratic life. 235 00:28:21,130 --> 00:28:29,590 I think the older generation, our parents and the parents of our parents, they thought of democracy as voting right basic. 236 00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:36,490 But as I said earlier, fifty eight percent of young Europeans don't vote for members of the European Parliament. 237 00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:41,650 And I'm pretty sure that the figure is pretty similar at the national level 238 00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:46,870 because young Europeans want to be involved in democracy with alternative ways, 239 00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:53,770 physical ways, deliberative ways, ways that are digital, ways that are innovative and changing. 240 00:28:53,770 --> 00:28:59,200 So for us, voting is really just the basics. 241 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,780 But we want democracy to be so much more than that. 242 00:29:01,780 --> 00:29:11,230 And that's why initiatives like Erasmus and Interrail pass really would allow that democratic life to take shape in reality in front of our eyes. 243 00:29:11,230 --> 00:29:17,140 It's so much more tangible. I think that even after one and a half years through this pandemic, 244 00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:22,990 we also see that all the new opportunities we have in the digital space do not really 245 00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:28,630 replace meeting other people deeper connexions evolve when you actually need someone, 246 00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:34,630 especially when you travel, when you go somewhere, when you live in different cultures. 247 00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:42,230 And I think culture is a concept that is very difficult to transfer to a digital space only. 248 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:52,540 That's why we think that travelling is still so important also in the 21st century and also when there are so many other opportunities. 249 00:29:52,540 --> 00:30:03,160 But we also think that it should start early and not only with 16 or 20 when you study or when you graduate, but also already in school. 250 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:12,550 And that's why we suggest that civic education as a measure and with civic education, we do not mean any kind of indoctrination. 251 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:20,560 And it doesn't have to be pro-European either. We want to foster critical thinking and we want to foster different perspectives. 252 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:29,350 And they can be critical of the EU. They should be, but it is necessary that there is a discussion about it, because as it is at the moment, 253 00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:34,480 it's either you are pro-European and you're part of this cosmopolitan elite you mentioned earlier, 254 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:45,850 Emma, or if you're a high Europe in your very fast at the corner of euro sceptics who discard the EU in general. 255 00:30:45,850 --> 00:30:52,660 And I think that's why it is so important to have critical thinking and a real discussion of it. 256 00:30:52,660 --> 00:31:00,590 And you of. Only of that, if you start very early on to discuss these issues in school and people have to learn 257 00:31:00,590 --> 00:31:05,900 that democracy is not always very easy and to deal with diverging opinions as well. 258 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:14,480 I think in our report we also cite rock star endorse and he says that populism is very easy while democracy is complex. 259 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:20,510 And I think it's the task of civic education to. 260 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:28,550 Tell people early on that it isn't always very easy to deal with tensions in the democracy, but that it's worth it. 261 00:31:28,550 --> 00:31:34,400 And so it's also good to have diverging opinions and it's important to. 262 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:40,430 To have some kind of common denominator from which you can reach conclusions and compromises, 263 00:31:40,430 --> 00:31:53,090 but it's not always necessary and we want to foster that. We want to foster this public sphere where Europe is discussed. 264 00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:57,470 But Eneko golfBall, a professor of linguistics and Esperanto, 265 00:31:57,470 --> 00:32:03,740 has emphasised the need for a European public school and need to listen to what he had to say. 266 00:32:03,740 --> 00:32:11,750 We have to build up a space in which Europeans can do something they don't do. 267 00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:15,980 I mean, an agora, a space to do politics together. 268 00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:22,770 We don't do politics without. 269 00:32:22,770 --> 00:32:31,660 Sophie, as you were mentioning earlier, young Europeans tend to care more about outcomes than apparently democratic procedures, 270 00:32:31,660 --> 00:32:38,490 something that you mentioned in the report based on an opinion poll that we conducted in March of twenty, 271 00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:43,770 where fifty seven percent of young Europeans stated that they think an authoritarian 272 00:32:43,770 --> 00:32:50,010 state might be better equipped to deal with climate change than democracies. 273 00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:59,610 So how do you square this like you're on the one hand saying that young Europeans value democracy and are concerned with democracy in the EU? 274 00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:04,680 At the same time, they don't seem to believe in it very much when it comes to causes, 275 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,750 which at the end of the day is how they're politically active these days is by focussing on causes. 276 00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:14,940 So how do you square these two things? These are two very interesting points that are linked. 277 00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:22,770 And of course, I'm glad you bring it up. So first, let me explain what performance, legitimacy and procedural legitimacy is. 278 00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:27,240 So when this when you have this idea of a working democracy, 279 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:35,070 there are two ways in which someone from the general public may think, oh, this government really is doing your job. 280 00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:40,890 It has all my trust and it has a legitimate place to be there. 281 00:33:40,890 --> 00:33:45,570 The first way of thinking that is because of what the government is doing. 282 00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:54,270 So it's performing very well. The output is something that I'm happy with, and that's reformist legitimacy. 283 00:33:54,270 --> 00:33:58,050 The other way of thinking is procedural legitimacy. 284 00:33:58,050 --> 00:34:05,610 I think that this government is legitimate and it has my trust because of the process that it's using to achieve these outcomes. 285 00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:15,300 And what we find is that indeed young Europeans are much more interested in performance legitimacy than procedural legitimacy. 286 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:22,830 And it all comes down to this one finding that we have, which is that young people want to see results. 287 00:34:22,830 --> 00:34:26,830 They're interested in seeing outputs, performance. 288 00:34:26,830 --> 00:34:34,050 The process matters less to them because they are not so familiar with how the process is working anyway. 289 00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:39,210 When you think of a young European right now, they haven't known anything else but a democracy, 290 00:34:39,210 --> 00:34:43,980 so they don't know what could be in the process of making policy happening for them. 291 00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:48,390 It's just taken for granted that it's going to be democratic. So they don't even think about the process. 292 00:34:48,390 --> 00:34:54,300 They don't value it. They just think of outputs. They want to see performance. 293 00:34:54,300 --> 00:35:02,610 And it really does make sense as well. When you live in an era like that where everything seems like a life or death emergency. 294 00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:07,230 When you think of climate change, of course, I want to see the result as fast as possible. 295 00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:16,750 And if in my mind, I think that may maybe less democratic process is going to achieve better results, yes, I'm going to prefer that. 296 00:35:16,750 --> 00:35:20,400 Or at least that's what our findings show. Yes. 297 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,650 And we also have this one interesting finding that young Europeans think that 298 00:35:25,650 --> 00:35:32,490 autocratic states are better equipped to deal with climate change than democracies. 299 00:35:32,490 --> 00:35:36,930 And we discussed that with the several experts. 300 00:35:36,930 --> 00:35:42,000 And what they mention is, yeah, it's a difficult question to ask in such an opinion poll, 301 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:49,590 because, as Sophie said, young Europeans do not really know how it is to live in an autocracy. 302 00:35:49,590 --> 00:35:59,610 What it means, maybe they see the advantages and they think of China, for example, and how they can deal with some issues in a quick and direct way. 303 00:35:59,610 --> 00:36:04,140 But they forget all the disadvantages when reading this particular question about 304 00:36:04,140 --> 00:36:11,130 climate change and they forget what is behind it and which disadvantages come with it. 305 00:36:11,130 --> 00:36:20,880 And so it wasn't maybe the best question we figured out in retrospect to judge whether young people value democracy or autocracy more. 306 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:27,420 It's we shouldn't see that as a sign that young Europeans are against democracy. 307 00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:32,490 It's just they want this urgent issue dealt with. 308 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:32,730 Yeah, 309 00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:42,420 it's probably more a critique or an expression of frustration with a democratic system than it is an expression of favour for authoritarian systems. 310 00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:48,780 I actually have a very simple or or at least seemingly simple question about about that polling results, 311 00:36:48,780 --> 00:36:55,050 which is, I mean, as young Europeans yourselves and knowing other young Europeans, 312 00:36:55,050 --> 00:37:04,680 were you surprised by the results that 52 percent of young Europeans believe that authoritarian regimes were better equipped to handle climate change? 313 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:12,740 Yes, I was very surprised, I have to admit, because if I think of authoritarian regimes, I think of. 314 00:37:12,740 --> 00:37:25,840 China, I think, of Russia. Now, maybe also hungry, and these are not countries, I think, that are pretty good at dealing with climate change. 315 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:32,470 So I was a bit surprised, actually, I wasn't. These results do not surprise me, because the question was, 316 00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:38,440 do you think that authoritarian states are better equipped than democracies to tackle climate change? 317 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,370 Do you think that they're better equipped not to? Do you think that they're doing it better? 318 00:37:42,370 --> 00:37:48,740 Because clearly they're not. What do you think of China? It's not doing better, but it has the potential to. 319 00:37:48,740 --> 00:37:57,140 And I think that question for me clearly was going to be in that direction, because when you think of the general public, again, 320 00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:04,070 I don't think most people really understand what are the tangible differences between living 321 00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:09,920 in a democracy and an authoritarian states when you are living in the European Union, 322 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,550 except when you think of Hungary and Poland that are leaning towards that direction. 323 00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:19,760 The rest are well functioning democracies, but not so. 324 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,550 These results did not surprise me because that's what I would think, too, if I was part of the general public, 325 00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:31,730 that, yes, authoritarian states are probably better equipped to deal with crises like situations. 326 00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:36,560 I'm glad we got to a question where the two of you had different responses. 327 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,720 That's very exciting. One follow up on that. 328 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:46,250 Perhaps it's true that this result doesn't mean that young Europeans suddenly favour authoritarian regimes over democratic ones. 329 00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:54,740 But do you think it might mean that significant doubts about the superiority of democratic regimes might be 330 00:38:54,740 --> 00:39:02,810 connected with difficulties in mustering the political will to deal with democratic backsliding within Europe? 331 00:39:02,810 --> 00:39:04,520 Oh, sure, for sure. 332 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:11,960 For instance, we talk about China here as an example of a kind of an authoritarian state, which is, I think, the leading example at the moment. 333 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:27,210 China is doing everything it can. For the outside world to be perceiving it as a very efficient and very well functioning system of government. 334 00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:33,700 This side being authoritarian, they want the world to think that it's actually more efficient. 335 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:39,730 So, of course, most people are going to think that way because China is really, really good at its public diplomacy. 336 00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:44,440 It's has a very smart approach of strategy, communication and, you know, 337 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,320 showing its best sides and hiding everything that's not working really well and has a 338 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,860 very tight grip on the media and on there is literally no opposition in the country. 339 00:39:56,860 --> 00:40:02,830 So they control very much the information space. And that's why most people would think, oh, 340 00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:11,560 then it must it must be really working well because there is nothing else really being said and in the mainstream media. 341 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,020 And coming back to the second part of your question, 342 00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:24,940 I think we can see the same things now in these European states that lean to towards autocracies or authoritarian regimes, 343 00:40:24,940 --> 00:40:33,070 because Viktor Orban in Hungary doesn't say and he portrays himself as a person who does things, who solve problems. 344 00:40:33,070 --> 00:40:41,300 He's not just talking. He's discrediting those people in democracies that talk parliaments and so on. 345 00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:50,200 He's a man of the executive. And that's problematic. And I think, of course, China is believing itself, but we can also see it in Europe. 346 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:56,230 And I think it's also probably symptomatic of our generation where we really have I mean, 347 00:40:56,230 --> 00:41:00,040 right now we're dealing with a global pandemic, climate change. 348 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,560 Everything seems so urgent. So we want to see things happening now. 349 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,930 We don't have a lot of time in front of us. 350 00:41:07,930 --> 00:41:16,150 So we I think young Europeans really do value a system that seems effective, a system that seems efficient. 351 00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:24,760 I think it is possible that this generational thing opens the door for populists who pretend that they do something, 352 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,610 that they are different than the establishment, 353 00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:40,090 and that maybe the next thing we have to think about when when talking about democracy in the European Union as well. 354 00:41:40,090 --> 00:41:46,840 Even Krastev, a Bulgarian political science who has written prolifically about the risks of EU disintegration, 355 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:53,950 commented on young Europeans apparent belief that authoritarian states are better equipped to deal with crises and democracies. 356 00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:57,070 The millions of people are going to play that. 357 00:41:57,070 --> 00:42:03,370 For example, China authoritarian regimes are going to do better when it comes to climate change, but they don't know many workers. 358 00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:17,200 The activists want to go to live in kind of that once their own society to start group like China. 359 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,000 We could now shift the discussion to a very important part of your chapter, 360 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,190 which discusses what the European Union is doing and is not doing about democratic backsliding and rule of law in Europe. 361 00:42:30,190 --> 00:42:37,120 Yeah, I think in a nutshell, the European Union is talking a lot about safeguarding liberal democracy and its member states at the moment, 362 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:43,000 but it's not acting properly. They are creating many new mechanisms. 363 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:48,760 For example, last year they launched the new annual Rule of Law Report. 364 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,270 And there are many reports now, but we know what the problem is. 365 00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:57,880 And as you mentioned correctly, it is Democratic backsliding in some member states. 366 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:05,290 I think, first of all, we have to think of Hungary, then Poland, but also other member states who are following these examples. 367 00:43:05,290 --> 00:43:12,220 It's not only Hungary and Poland. And we also do not claim in our report that everything is well in Western European countries. 368 00:43:12,220 --> 00:43:20,020 Not at all. But these are definitely for example, if you look at the Freedom House report, Hungary is not considered a democracy anymore. 369 00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:25,780 Why? What is one reason for which Freedom House no longer considers Hungary a democracy? 370 00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:31,420 The elections are not free and fair any longer. I think that's a major issue. 371 00:43:31,420 --> 00:43:35,200 And of course, the rights of the opposition are severely limited. 372 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,240 There is no free media anymore. There is no separation of powers. 373 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:50,110 And it's very hard for independent judges to practise in Hungary that have been replaced very early on after the constitutional revolution, 374 00:43:50,110 --> 00:43:58,580 which is taking place since 2010. And we see similar developments in Poland since 2015 since. 375 00:43:58,580 --> 00:44:03,540 The ruling party came into government. And. 376 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:07,710 This has been well known for several years now, 377 00:44:07,710 --> 00:44:18,690 but somehow both the Hungarian government and the Polish government played with the European Union so that Brummies little things, 378 00:44:18,690 --> 00:44:25,230 they promised that they would change, but they didn't. They do not apply European Union law anymore. 379 00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:35,300 And so the EU is like a paper tiger in this respect, which doesn't really follow up on its fundamental values. 380 00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:43,760 I will probably just like first separate this debate, because, you know, so far we were talking about democracy mostly at the EU level. 381 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:48,950 So how is the EU? Functioning in a democratic way. 382 00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:52,160 And what can you do to function in a more democratic way? 383 00:44:52,160 --> 00:45:01,400 And our conclusion with that was that, you know, young Europeans actually mostly interested with the output they want to see the EU deliver. 384 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:12,260 But there are also some things that you can do to improve their participation and their awareness of the democratic process that precedes that. 385 00:45:12,260 --> 00:45:17,480 And that's a more central role for civil society, etc. 386 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:24,800 And then the other question that we need to tackle was how is democracy working at the member state level? 387 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:35,150 So you have democracy as the overarching thing within the EU and now we're going down to the democracy in each member state, 388 00:45:35,150 --> 00:45:40,500 which is something that, of course, the EU was meant to be protecting. 389 00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:50,760 But it's very difficult because the EU doesn't have any way of imposing of enforcing its rules, or at least it has really been happening so far. 390 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,640 So that's really the main issue that we have tackled in that part of the chapter. 391 00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:02,150 How is it that democracy is one of the core values, yet there is really no one to defend it? 392 00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:10,460 So we need to find the defenders of democracy. And according to the treaties, it's the job of the European Commission. 393 00:46:10,460 --> 00:46:16,010 That's what what is meant by the guardian of the treaties. 394 00:46:16,010 --> 00:46:24,320 What the commission is. But as Sophie said on paper, we have mechanisms, for example, the Article seven procedure, 395 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,700 but you cannot really apply it because the threshold is very high. 396 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:33,680 You need, for example, unanimity in the European Council. 397 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:42,710 That means as long as both Hungary and Poland are democratic backsliding, they will cover each other and nothing will happen. 398 00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:46,310 And they publicly announced that and it's well known. 399 00:46:46,310 --> 00:46:52,790 What doesn't make a lot of sense is that even the hearings are not ongoing and we criticise that as well, 400 00:46:52,790 --> 00:47:03,620 because even if there is the chance of enforcing that, you could still have public hearings and put public pressure on Hungary and Poland. 401 00:47:03,620 --> 00:47:05,090 And that is not happening. 402 00:47:05,090 --> 00:47:16,040 And the excuse for the whole of last year was that it's because of the pandemic, but with so many other hearings going on digitally. 403 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,530 So why not these Article seven hearings? 404 00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:26,780 And there are many of these small issues where the EU is certainly not doing enough, even if the mechanism is toothless, 405 00:47:26,780 --> 00:47:33,860 many say sounds like there are many open questions that remain about the causes 406 00:47:33,860 --> 00:47:40,640 of democratic backsliding as well as who who can act decisively to prevent it. 407 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:51,170 But one one of the strong opinions we heard in our interviews was from the mayor of Warsaw, Reforge Calfskin, 408 00:47:51,170 --> 00:48:00,320 who spoke about the need to make sure the local people and perhaps by extension local governments, 409 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:10,610 were not punished by decisive action taken by the institutions of the European Union to address democratic backsliding. 410 00:48:10,610 --> 00:48:19,660 I wonder how much you think this. Could be achieved and how the European situations might be able to make this a priority? 411 00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:26,830 Yeah, that is a very interesting suggestion. And we also took up this idea in our recommendation section, 412 00:48:26,830 --> 00:48:35,350 and we suggest that the EU should allocate funding from the EU recovery fund directly to regional and local governments, 413 00:48:35,350 --> 00:48:47,020 because we can see, for example, in both Hungary and Poland that the capital are still very liberal and it's the idea of the mayor of Warsaw. 414 00:48:47,020 --> 00:48:52,660 So he was very supportive of this recommendation, of course. 415 00:48:52,660 --> 00:49:11,000 But we also think that talking about other countries, this could be a very efficient way to limit the leeway of autocratic leaning national leaders. 416 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,880 Article seven is a procedure of the Lisbon Treaty, 417 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:20,420 it enables the EU to suspend certain member state rights in order to prevent democratic backsliding by ensuring that, 418 00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:25,070 quote, all EU countries respect the common values of the EU. 419 00:49:25,070 --> 00:49:28,250 It has thus far been triggered against Poland and Hungary. 420 00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:34,820 Our team interviewed Reformatories Korski, the mayor of Warsaw, an opponent of Poland's incumbent president. 421 00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:38,690 Here's what he had to say about the shortcomings of Article seven. 422 00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:45,380 Let's put it bluntly. I mean, the Article seven is not very, very effective and we knew it all along. 423 00:49:45,380 --> 00:49:55,820 The mechanism of actually subjecting a rule of law like the rule of law and international transfers is not liked by quite a lot of member states. 424 00:49:55,820 --> 00:50:03,860 Why should we, local government or the people be penalised for the irresponsible behaviour of our government? 425 00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:12,740 So, of course, we want the European Union to be tough. But I think that there are other ways in which to demonstrate to peace that their 426 00:50:12,740 --> 00:50:18,950 behaviour will not be tolerated by directly supporting independent local media, 427 00:50:18,950 --> 00:50:31,120 independent NGOs and independent local governments. You make a series of recommendations, you've already mentioned some, 428 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:37,630 so perhaps we could move on to what the European Union should be doing, in your opinion? 429 00:50:37,630 --> 00:50:43,330 Yes, actually, one of the first recommendations we made was about the conference on the future of Europe, 430 00:50:43,330 --> 00:50:53,710 which is this idea that the EU had to join young Europeans together and re discuss the future of Europe together. 431 00:50:53,710 --> 00:50:55,750 That was the original plan. 432 00:50:55,750 --> 00:51:06,970 What happened is that actually they made this event become so bureaucratic and involving the same kind of like high level people. 433 00:51:06,970 --> 00:51:10,250 It wasn't really the genuine. 434 00:51:10,250 --> 00:51:18,710 Popular kind of event, that was the original intention because there was so much disagreement about who should chair what and when and how, 435 00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:24,950 eventually it ended up being a very bureaucratic event like like they all are kind of. 436 00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:36,260 And we regret that because the original intention of discussing the future of Europe amongst us young Europeans would be absolutely fantastic. 437 00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:46,880 But in order to do that and to have kept that genuine intention, then they should really put a central role for civil society organisations right now. 438 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:53,150 And I mean, at the time that we wrote the report, they were not allowed of joining the event as organisations. 439 00:51:53,150 --> 00:51:55,700 You could only join as an individual. 440 00:51:55,700 --> 00:52:05,690 We think that also these kind of events would be so much more popular and so much more successful if they were a festival like events, 441 00:52:05,690 --> 00:52:10,580 like a tour of Europe that also involves music and culture. 442 00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:14,780 And then you put the Democratic discussion with it. 443 00:52:14,780 --> 00:52:20,540 But to have something that looks bureaucratic and serious and, you know, 444 00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:28,640 with the same kind of faces that nobody knows about aside from Brussels, it isn't really attractive to most young Europeans. 445 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:39,500 And I think it's quite telling that even as probably the most enthusiastic young Europeans about Europe and the European project. 446 00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:45,410 I'm sorry, have you been involved in the conference of the conference on the Future of Europe? 447 00:52:45,410 --> 00:52:48,780 Well, I've actually tried to get in touch with them. 448 00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:53,990 It's not easy. There you go. So I think we really they really miss the point. 449 00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:58,970 They really had a great opportunity and they kind of ruined it. 450 00:52:58,970 --> 00:53:04,430 And it's sad. But hopefully this will be ground for lessons for next time. 451 00:53:04,430 --> 00:53:12,170 And hopefully next time that we have an event like that, we can make it really fun and moving and inclusive and non-standard and digital and 452 00:53:12,170 --> 00:53:17,300 aggregates and something that would really stimulate the interest of young Europeans. 453 00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:25,790 Yeah, did this, like, really frustrate you, given that on paper, it seems exactly like the thing that you would want the European Union to be doing? 454 00:53:25,790 --> 00:53:31,280 I mean, it very much coincides with your recommendations in this chapter in theory. 455 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:37,670 But then in practise, it seems to confirm every or the main negative things that are usually said about the European Union, 456 00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:46,610 that it's this massive bureaucratic organisation that makes no progress on any issue because it can't make up its mind because of how complex it is. 457 00:53:46,610 --> 00:53:49,830 So does that really? 458 00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:59,400 Frustrate you or it's exactly that it really confirms all these myths and all these typical critiques that young people have about Europe, 459 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:07,380 so it's really a shame. But, you know, I think at the same time, you can't expect everything to happen in one go. 460 00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:12,330 Progress is slow, but steady. We didn't used to have these kind of events five, 10 years ago. 461 00:54:12,330 --> 00:54:20,350 So at least now there is the intention. The intention is there. Now we just need to turn the attention and do something practical. 462 00:54:20,350 --> 00:54:28,230 The other big recommendation we had is that the EU should stand up for liberal democracy and the rule of law in its member states. 463 00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:34,890 And we make several smaller suggestions and I think we have already mentioned some. 464 00:54:34,890 --> 00:54:40,590 But overall, we think that is the task of the European Union, the European Commission, 465 00:54:40,590 --> 00:54:45,870 but also other member states not to tolerate a liberal democracy in its midst. 466 00:54:45,870 --> 00:54:55,290 And for that, we suggest that the council should resume organising public hearings on the Article seven procedure, as mentioned earlier, 467 00:54:55,290 --> 00:55:04,980 that the other parties or party groups in the European Parliament shouldn't cooperate with ruling parties in Hungary and Poland. 468 00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:12,180 We saw a pretty good development in the sense by writing the report, because, as we all know, Fidesz, 469 00:55:12,180 --> 00:55:23,100 the Hungarian ruling party, got left the EPP, but somehow also got expelled for the expulsion was imminent like before. 470 00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:32,430 And there are several small or not small, but there are several mechanisms that could work but that haven't been tried yet. 471 00:55:32,430 --> 00:55:42,780 For example, member states could sue each other if there is a serious breach of the European of the European treaties. 472 00:55:42,780 --> 00:55:51,270 And the Netherlands discussed this mechanism and they consider it maybe suing Poland for not obeying to EU law. 473 00:55:51,270 --> 00:56:01,230 And so taking this together, we think that it's the task of the European Union to stand up and to defend liberal democracy. 474 00:56:01,230 --> 00:56:14,770 To zoom out again a little bit from the trees back to the forest, I wonder for both of you having worked on this project of Europe, stories now for. 475 00:56:14,770 --> 00:56:23,680 A considerable amount of time, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of European democracy? 476 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:30,950 I didn't expect this action and. You want to go first, the. 477 00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:41,930 To be honest, I'm not sure, because it's very hard to answer, because we are and we all know that we are working in the pro-European bubble in Oxford, 478 00:56:41,930 --> 00:56:46,970 and I think I became pro-European through working in this project. 479 00:56:46,970 --> 00:56:52,520 But looking at the political developments in Europe, I think it's more a negative assessment. 480 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,650 I think populism is evidently on the rise in many countries. 481 00:56:57,650 --> 00:57:05,840 It's not just Hungary and Poland. And it's concerning we saw published government, also Italy and in Austria, 482 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:13,460 and these governments are against the European Union, they want to undermine our fundamental European values. 483 00:57:13,460 --> 00:57:22,400 And so I think it's it's a hard time for democracy in the EU and that's why we have to stand up for it. 484 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,750 Exactly. So I think now that I thought a little bit about it, 485 00:57:26,750 --> 00:57:35,150 I personally feel more or less hopeful about the future of democracy in Europe after working for this project. 486 00:57:35,150 --> 00:57:45,770 I think I feel more uncertain because everything is so uncertain at the moment and there is so much uncertainty, so much instability. 487 00:57:45,770 --> 00:57:49,730 So it's hard to know how things are going to develop, 488 00:57:49,730 --> 00:57:58,760 which is why we need now more than ever people who are really passionate and people who are really going to act as the defenders of democracy, 489 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:05,000 which requires also being realistic about it and not just being naive and hopeful 490 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,740 that like certain that Europe is the best in Europe is always going to prevail. 491 00:58:09,740 --> 00:58:15,320 You have to be realistic. And in order to stay realistic, you also have to stay grounded. 492 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:21,590 And that's something that is so important to me, is to go outside of this bubble. 493 00:58:21,590 --> 00:58:26,150 Of course, we're all Oxford graduates. It's amazing. 494 00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:36,260 It's beautiful. It's outstanding to be discussing these kind of issues with people who are super smart and very well-educated and very well-spoken. 495 00:58:36,260 --> 00:58:41,930 But it's also so important to stay connected with people who have very little education, 496 00:58:41,930 --> 00:58:48,530 people who know nothing about the people who know nothing about democracy, because these people are also part of our society. 497 00:58:48,530 --> 00:58:52,880 And it's really important to make them part of this debate. 498 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,040 I just want to stress this point again, 499 00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:01,610 because we also highlight that in our recommendation on the Interrail polls that it is necessary to promote this 500 00:59:01,610 --> 00:59:10,370 Interrail proposal for educationally disadvantaged groups because they often do not benefit from these programmes. 501 00:59:10,370 --> 00:59:15,050 And we have to change that. That is our job and that's also the job of the EU. 502 00:59:15,050 --> 00:59:23,940 But also everyone can do something about that. 503 00:59:23,940 --> 00:59:36,990 Our guests today were Sophie BBT and Joseph, a huge thanks to our podcast editor, Billy Creagan, our research manager, Luisa Malow, and our report. 504 00:59:36,990 --> 00:59:42,990 Professor Timothy Garton Ash. We're also grateful to our founders, the Swedish Nobel Foundation, 505 00:59:42,990 --> 00:59:48,630 the title Diphthong and the System Mercato for making the Europe Stories Project podcast possible. 506 00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:53,790 A special thank you to Ellen Lefsetz, illustrator Maev Moynihan, 507 00:59:53,790 --> 01:00:02,690 Sophie Verité and Victoria Hansell for contributing to the podcast production music by Unicorn Heads and Ketso. 508 01:00:02,690 --> 01:00:08,820 Finally, thank you to the whole Europe Stories Project. I'm your host and Americans. 509 01:00:08,820 --> 01:00:14,900 I'm your host. Lucasta, thank you for listening today. Join us for the next episode of the Europe Stories podcast. 510 01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:19,790 And until then, you can find out more about our research project at European moments. 511 01:00:19,790 --> 01:00:33,658 Dotcom.