1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,170 Hi, Anna. Hi, Lucas. Nice to see you. Nice to see you, too. 2 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:13,350 So today we're talking about one of our lost themes in this series, Europe in a Changing World. 3 00:00:13,350 --> 00:00:19,500 And one of the really interesting things that I found in these conversation that's been different from 4 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:25,710 how I thought about Europe in the past is this question of whether Europe is a superpower and if so, 5 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:33,150 what kind of superpower it is. You know, people put all kinds of prefixes to Europe as a superpower. 6 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:40,880 So I just want to start by asking, when you were growing up and also today, do you usually think of Europe as a superpower? 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,720 I don't think I do. I think it's an important player, no doubt, 8 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:57,080 I think I mainly think of it as a normative soft power organisation that sets an example and that is followed by many countries around the world. 9 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:06,280 And it's and and that, you know, the European Union is actually an important experiment for the future of international relations. 10 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:12,980 It's sort of like the first step in what Kontinental organisations could look like in the future. 11 00:01:12,980 --> 00:01:17,990 So in that sense, it is extremely influential and it is no doubt an important player. 12 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:24,710 But I'm not sure that I think of it that that's enough to make me think of it as a superpower, that that resonates. 13 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:33,620 I mean, I just wonder what it is that we associate with superpower that seems to be not be the case for the E.U. 14 00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:39,590 I think, you know, when when this has come up in our or previous conversations and seminars, I think not everyone, 15 00:01:39,590 --> 00:01:50,870 but all people will think about military power, something that the European Union doesn't really have. 16 00:01:50,870 --> 00:01:52,940 But I'm just thinking, I don't know what you think you know, 17 00:01:52,940 --> 00:01:58,190 is that really the main thing is military power the main thing that differentiates European Union from superpower? 18 00:01:58,190 --> 00:02:06,430 Or is it something else? I think we're, you know, exposed to people who are studying these topics are very aware that, you know, 19 00:02:06,430 --> 00:02:15,640 the concepts of a unipolar world that came after the Cold War with the preponderance of the United States and foreign policy, 20 00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:23,620 and that being challenged by China and the EU is sort of always negotiating its position in relation to these. 21 00:02:23,620 --> 00:02:31,420 Yes. Superpowers. And so to my mind, that's that's one of the reasons why I don't think of it as a superpower. 22 00:02:31,420 --> 00:02:35,050 That's at least as powerful as those two players. 23 00:02:35,050 --> 00:02:45,080 And I guess it does have something to do with military power, but that's not at the forefront of my judgement in answering your question. 24 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,740 Yeah, well, just to be clear, I do think that military power really matters. 25 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:51,090 And we're talking about superpower. 26 00:02:51,090 --> 00:03:01,170 But I think another really important fact is that the EU is a very complex experiment, as you've mentioned, where there is a one. 27 00:03:01,170 --> 00:03:08,850 State organ that is directing political and economic and military power, and so I think that's another dimension. 28 00:03:08,850 --> 00:03:14,850 It's not just on military power, it's also about how is this institutional framework organised? 29 00:03:14,850 --> 00:03:21,810 And I think as we talk about in this episode, you know, in some ways you could think of the EU as a. 30 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:28,230 Geopolitical and anti superpower in the very way it has been designed and has evolved. 31 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:34,230 I think in the process of this project. This kind of question has been one interesting one. 32 00:03:34,230 --> 00:03:47,070 But just as interesting and even more interesting is the more subjective one of whether young Europeans care whether the EU is a superpower or not. 33 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:52,410 And I don't I don't know if you found the surprising that it seems like. 34 00:03:52,410 --> 00:04:02,640 A lot of young Europeans actually find foreign policy geopolitics to be quite unimportant in their lives. 35 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:09,360 I wouldn't say it's surprising, but I find I found very insightful coming out of the report was how, 36 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:17,010 you know, foreign policy issues are very much entwined with the idea of the European Union, 37 00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:27,690 its fundamental values, and the extent to which those fundamental values are consistent with Europeans, the European Union's foreign policy. 38 00:04:27,690 --> 00:04:41,160 I do think that there is a desire for Europeans in general, not just young Europeans, for a consistent, like unified approach to foreign policy. 39 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,740 And that that kind of reflects on the unity of the European Union. 40 00:04:45,740 --> 00:04:52,070 So I agree, I mean, that that some of that's one of the findings that came out of this report is that, 41 00:04:52,070 --> 00:04:57,170 you know, it's it's not at the forefront of Europeans concerns, it seems. 42 00:04:57,170 --> 00:05:02,330 Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that this report helped me understand, 43 00:05:02,330 --> 00:05:05,270 too, is we really need to think about both of those layers at the same time. 44 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:13,610 Both, you know, the more technical side of whether the EU is a superpower, what kind of geopolitical actor it is, along with, you know, 45 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:17,930 the perceptions and thoughts and feelings of Europeans and what they care about 46 00:05:17,930 --> 00:05:24,110 and why they might not care about foreign policy so much in the traditional sense. 47 00:05:24,110 --> 00:05:27,950 But putting these two layers together might actually help us understand Europe in a 48 00:05:27,950 --> 00:05:33,400 changing world in new ways that haven't been considered in the more conventional. 49 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,590 Frameworks. And I think that's also really great that we get to talk to our guests in this episode 50 00:05:38,590 --> 00:05:45,010 because they are coming with a lot of expertise in the more institutional side, 51 00:05:45,010 --> 00:05:50,610 the more policy side. But also they themselves are young Europeans reflecting about. 52 00:05:50,610 --> 00:05:57,030 Their place and their home and their continent. Should we introduce our speakers? 53 00:05:57,030 --> 00:06:06,090 We should, yeah. So our first guests today, one of the co-authors of this chapter is Mariana Lovato, 54 00:06:06,090 --> 00:06:12,990 who joined us actually from her home in northwestern Italy on the border with France. 55 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:20,610 She's currently a PhD candidate, University College Dublin, where her research focuses on EU foreign policy. 56 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:27,720 She had previously been a master's student at Oxford, which is when she joined the Europe Stories Team. 57 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:38,100 So Mariana is joined by Olivier de France, who is at the moment doing his de at Oxford University at St. Anthony's College. 58 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:43,410 He is interested in the history of European political thought and the implications 59 00:06:43,410 --> 00:06:55,680 it holds for this old continent's current political and strategic shifts. 60 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:05,610 Hello, I'm Timothy Garton Ash, welcome to the Europe Stories podcast, what the young Europeans want the European Union to do and to be. 61 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:06,990 Over the last three years, 62 00:07:06,990 --> 00:07:15,900 an amazing group of young Europeans have worked with me here at the European Studies Centre at Oxford University to answer this question. 63 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:19,920 And this podcast will present their findings. 64 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:42,770 And Martins and Luckhurst say, have a series of conversations with the authors of our concluding report and give you their answers. 65 00:07:42,770 --> 00:07:47,760 Hello, nice to see you, where are you joining us from today? 66 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:56,120 Hi, honey. Hi, Lucas. So I'm joining from Italy, technically in Dublin, but physically in Italy at the moment. 67 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:03,200 At the moment, I'm based in the northern part of Italy, in the Alps, in a small region of the border with France and Switzerland. 68 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:14,190 And you, Olivier, I'm in Oxford, so I live on a on an old farm in the in the fields in the middle of the Wildlife Service for the fun. 69 00:08:14,190 --> 00:08:19,410 We might start with how you came to write this chapter, 70 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:25,740 so whether we think of it in the specific case of foreign policy or Europe in a changing world, 71 00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:32,000 how did those issues become an important part of your research or even your own thinking? 72 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,340 For better or for worse, I'm afraid I've been working on these issues for far too long. 73 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:45,950 The issue of foreign policy is one that we usually look at from the points of views of governments, of officials with chanceries, 74 00:08:45,950 --> 00:08:53,960 not from the point of view of the people, and to be honest, even less from the point of view of young people. 75 00:08:53,960 --> 00:09:03,260 So I think it's a very, very important angle and a fresh one to bring to the foreign policy debate in Europe, which is sometimes a tiny bit stale. 76 00:09:03,260 --> 00:09:07,790 I have a long standing relationship with the Europe Stories Project, 77 00:09:07,790 --> 00:09:17,090 so I think we started together on a I was in my first or second year of my MFA at Oxford in European Politics and Society, 78 00:09:17,090 --> 00:09:23,750 and at first I joined as part of the team that carried out the interviews with expert experts so 79 00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:30,230 I can sort of claim a little bit of the glory of the two hundred plus interviews of the project. 80 00:09:30,230 --> 00:09:34,760 And then I sort of went off to do my PhD, 81 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:44,570 which is on EU foreign and security policy and specifically member states sort of negotiation success in EU foreign policy. 82 00:09:44,570 --> 00:09:50,150 So this has become my life and I was brought back in to work with. 83 00:09:50,150 --> 00:09:53,930 What do you do on the on the chapter on Europe in the world? 84 00:09:53,930 --> 00:10:00,800 And has you said it's really been interesting because, you know, you are a scholar, a student, an academic, a politician. 85 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,820 You kind of always have this top down approach to the study of EU foreign policy. 86 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:09,890 So it's been really great to look at it from the perspective of young Europeans. 87 00:10:09,890 --> 00:10:17,960 And it has made me realise actually how little data there is on how young Europeans feel about EU foreign policy. 88 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:24,350 It's true that you actually have to wait until you're forced to look into this issue to 89 00:10:24,350 --> 00:10:30,290 realise how little data there is on the younger generation of Europeans in this field, 90 00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:39,470 which is a pity because the younger generation is the most important constituency for the future of of the EU. 91 00:10:39,470 --> 00:10:47,960 One young European we interviewed was very good Chernof, who is now an urban policy researcher working in London before studying in the UK, 92 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:55,120 Farah was elected a member of a municipal council in Moscow where she challenged the Russian system from within here, 93 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,520 what she hopes the EU will have achieved by 2030. 94 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:08,630 I do hope that within the next 10 years or so, Europe will be able to reinvent itself, if I may say so, 95 00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:18,380 as the beacon of liberty, not just some democratic entity or what it's criticised today for. 96 00:11:18,380 --> 00:11:25,700 So people in Ukraine in 2015 or Georgia 10 years before that, 97 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:31,670 they were waving European flags at the rallies and willing to sacrifice their 98 00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:37,040 lives for not because they wanted their representatives to be in Brussels, 99 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:43,310 but because they wanted to be subject to some unified standards, Bahaman harmonised taxation. 100 00:11:43,310 --> 00:11:50,990 They wanted to embrace the values of free travel, free trade, free speech and just freedom in all aspects. 101 00:11:50,990 --> 00:12:08,730 And they wanted to have the opposite of what they have witnessed for 70 years, the Soviet rule. 102 00:12:08,730 --> 00:12:14,820 So it seems like both of you have really hit on this point that it's really rare and therefore 103 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:20,910 really interesting to look at Europe in a changing world from the perspective of young people. 104 00:12:20,910 --> 00:12:29,730 So on that specific note, what do you think you learnt the most by digging into that perspective? 105 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:36,260 Or what did we learn the most as a team by focussing on that angle? 106 00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:41,720 I mean, what we learnt or what I was surprised about was this sort of consistency in the 107 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:48,420 support for a common EU foreign policy across time since sort of the 1990s, 108 00:12:48,420 --> 00:12:54,710 there has been a very high percentage of support for a common EU foreign policy. 109 00:12:54,710 --> 00:13:03,860 And that's pretty remarkable because that's, you know, since Maastricht and then through several enlargement rounds through 9/11, 110 00:13:03,860 --> 00:13:10,340 the war in Afghanistan, war in Libya, the eurozone crisis, that's a lot going on. 111 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:16,580 And still the idea of coming to you from policy, greater cooperation in the field of foreign policy, 112 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:22,250 and also an expectation that the EU should be more ambitious in world politics. 113 00:13:22,250 --> 00:13:24,230 That still stands. 114 00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:34,670 But then, of course, what was less surprising was how than first of all, this is not a priority for a lot of Europeans and young Europeans, 115 00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:39,980 especially, which value free movement, as it's been discussed at length and in another episode. 116 00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:45,020 Right. And economic and educational opportunities and so on and so forth. 117 00:13:45,020 --> 00:13:56,900 And then second, what was also not surprising is how then divided are the various EU member states on a number of important foreign policy issues, 118 00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:08,660 from NATO to neutrality to what kind of sort of capabilities and operational objectives you should set for itself. 119 00:14:08,660 --> 00:14:16,850 Can you give, like, one illustrative example of what one country prioritises as opposed to another one? 120 00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:27,050 For instance, one division that comes up in virtually every sort of foreign policy debate, and would you please jump in as well? 121 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:35,840 But it's the Eastern Western Division in terms of or rather Eastern Solidaire, their neighbourhood division. 122 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:42,110 What is more strategically important to focus on is that the eastern flank is of the Mediterranean. 123 00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:49,730 There is Poland advocating for more initiatives to counter the threat coming from Russia, Poland, the Baltics. 124 00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:58,880 And then there's also the southern Mediterranean states, France, Italy, that very much are focussed on external migration. 125 00:14:58,880 --> 00:14:59,690 Right. 126 00:14:59,690 --> 00:15:11,150 So that's just one there's a whole debate on should the Europe remain under NATO's security umbrella or should we pursue European strategic autonomy? 127 00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:17,930 And that sort of pits the Atlanticist member states versus the ones like France 128 00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:24,200 who would like to see you become a more autonomous actor in world politics. 129 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:34,790 This is a really great example of how it helps to have some context to add to the data on the numbers that we have, 130 00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:40,340 because EU policymakers tend to make a lot out of the fact that there are high 131 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:47,990 levels of support for common EU foreign policy and common European defence. 132 00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:53,360 But there are very few people who then try to dig in to the granularity of that. 133 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:58,850 And one of the assets of this project is not just the quantitative polling side, 134 00:15:58,850 --> 00:16:09,920 but also the qualitative interviews and the context that we try to garner via the interviews with with quite a few Europeans. 135 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:18,020 Marijana mentioned in those over two hundred interviews. And when you do that, it starts getting a bit more complicated, both, as Marianne said, 136 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:25,890 in geographical terms and in generational terms, I suppose in geographical terms sometimes. 137 00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:32,250 You realise that even the words we use in France or in the U.K. or in Italy, 138 00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:38,840 they have the same resonance and sometimes they even have a translation in other languages. 139 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:46,800 That's the case. For example, our prisons for Power Europe, which is a kind of staple French foreign policy concept, 140 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:53,970 which doesn't really have a translation in, for example, Romanian or Slovenian. 141 00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:58,140 And therefore the concept is slightly alien. 142 00:16:58,140 --> 00:17:04,980 But there is also the context that you give, not just in geographical terms, but in generational terms. 143 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:10,460 And this is where, as Maryanna mentioned. 144 00:17:10,460 --> 00:17:23,720 It's when you policy makers insist on the fact that 70 percent of Europeans want a common foreign policy and 80 percent want a common defence policy. 145 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:31,040 What is missing from that data is the first of all, the point of view of the younger Europeans. 146 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:43,160 And secondly, the fact that if you then look these younger Europeans, yes, that support will be high, but the hierarchy of priorities will be low. 147 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:51,260 So in other words, there's high support for common foreign and defence policy is a low priority for the younger generation. 148 00:17:51,260 --> 00:18:00,590 And this is the kind of example of the complications that exist behind the apparent simplicity of the data. 149 00:18:00,590 --> 00:18:09,440 And if you look at what the younger generation wants, actually there is not so much of the kind of obsession with a hard border. 150 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:16,730 There is much more of a focus on travel, on values, LGBT rights, social justice. 151 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:25,970 And so there isn't so much of a consensus around what the institutions call a geopolitical Europe. 152 00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:32,990 I don't think that resonates a great deal with the younger generations because the geopolitical Europe basically 153 00:18:32,990 --> 00:18:41,750 means a Europe that is defends its interests on the world stage and quite a historically aggressive way, 154 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:47,060 which is essentially out of the whole history of the European Union. 155 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:55,730 So what's interesting with this project is that sometimes some of the complexities behind the rhetoric and perhaps invites 156 00:18:55,730 --> 00:19:11,660 the EU policymakers to look more closely at the data and what they mean when they say the EU should be a geopolitical actor. 157 00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:15,680 The tension between the values of the EU projects and its actual approach to foreign 158 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,270 policy came up in several interviews conducted for the Europe Storage Project, 159 00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:25,160 which you can explore by following the link to our show notes description here. 160 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:25,990 What autonomous? 161 00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:34,250 Texaco's the director of Southeast European Studies at Oxford had to say about the relationship between the EU and its southeast neighbours. 162 00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:42,140 My problem is that within the EU at the discussion and relationship with these countries, especially with Turkey, 163 00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:49,700 emphasises geopolitics and leaves out the democratic problems which we see more and more developing in Turkey. 164 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:56,180 I think that the European Union should project much more of its own democratic image, 165 00:19:56,180 --> 00:20:13,040 but also act accordingly with with these countries and not have a relationship that it often appears to be opportunistic, transactional or tactical. 166 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:25,620 Olivia, you just mentioned this question of EU as a geopolitical actor and one key word that appears a few times in the chapters superpower. 167 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:37,560 And I think it's fair to say that in our polling and in our interviews, as well as in the events in Colombia, organised by the dawn of programme, 168 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:43,230 that there's been some amount of difficulty in pinning down what Europeans and in 169 00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:49,890 particular what young Europeans think and want in with regards to this word superpower. 170 00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:56,730 And I think there does seem to be a fair amount of scepticism about the EU as a superpower. 171 00:20:56,730 --> 00:21:04,650 I don't know how to characterise it. I don't know if it's apathy. I don't know if it's antipathy towards the idea of EU a superpower. 172 00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:10,440 So I wonder whether you might give us your characterisation of how young Europeans 173 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:18,490 relate to the idea of the EU as a superpower as well as your interpretation. 174 00:21:18,490 --> 00:21:23,860 So I think at the present stage, we're stuck between two extremities. 175 00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:32,110 We have a history of the EU as an anti-gay political act in the technical sense of what geopolitics actually means. 176 00:21:32,110 --> 00:21:45,160 And then the present, which is very much made up of EU politicians who will insist on the of the EU in this aspiration to be a geopolitical actor. 177 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:55,600 Now we have to try to figure out what consensus existed in between these two extremities by looking at the polling and by looking at our interviews. 178 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:04,240 Now, I don't think it helps to say there is one consensual narrative in the EU and everybody should follow this and a top down way. 179 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:11,830 Arguably, I think the opposite isn't necessarily that helpful either to say that there isn't a narrative and essentially the 180 00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:19,960 EU is just a juxtaposition of four hundred and fifty million different citizens and therefore different narratives, 181 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:26,440 because this basically just means that the EU is just a juxtaposition of individuals. 182 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:37,720 I think that you can be a bit a bit more than that. So basically our work was to try to find some of the main essentially stories was what? 183 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,710 The geopolitical stories, the strategic stories that spoke to people. 184 00:22:41,710 --> 00:22:45,820 That's not an easy thing to do because there's not a lot of literature about it. 185 00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:48,700 And it's not really an area of focus for the discipline. 186 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:56,860 And this is why this project feels this this particular got what we started from was the idea. 187 00:22:56,860 --> 00:23:04,240 But there is nothing in the everyday life of European citizens. 188 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:15,900 That does not have an external dimension. So if you take the five five G debates, if you take personal protective equipment or if we take drain's, 189 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:25,260 essentially every aspect of the internal existence of European citizens involves some sort of external dimension. 190 00:23:25,260 --> 00:23:36,120 Therefore, these strategic stories exist or must exist because they are actually embedded in a European citizens' everyday existence. 191 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:44,970 They don't have to be these foreign policy narratives. So instead of saying the EU is a kind of a geopolitical actor, 192 00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:56,430 we try to find stories and ways of asking it that resonates with the everyday lives of European citizens it comes down to. 193 00:23:56,430 --> 00:24:06,690 Trying to define. What your interests are in industrial terms, in technological terms, yes, in strategic terms or in health terms. 194 00:24:06,690 --> 00:24:12,970 That sounds abstract, but what that means is actually trying to figure out what we should be able to do ourselves as 195 00:24:12,970 --> 00:24:22,450 Europeans and in what areas we choose to depend on third party powers or on the outside world. 196 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:31,360 That is the key. That's the main decision to basically figure out whether we should count on ourselves for drones, 197 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:38,730 for submarines, but also for personal protective equipment or for our phone infrastructure. 198 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:44,250 Once you actually start asking very, very concrete questions, 199 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:51,480 then the idea of a superpower isn't so much the idea of a geopolitical aggressive imperial superpower, 200 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:59,220 but just a power that defines its own interests and then follows through on them. 201 00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:08,520 So instead of reacting, for example, to Donald Trump's Twitter feed or to China's South China Sea initiatives or to Australia, 202 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:20,670 the UK and the US forming a defence pact, the idea is for the EU to positively define its interests and then follow them through. 203 00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:26,940 Our team interviewed David Gill, the consul general at the German consulate in New York, 204 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:31,860 when we asked him about the one thing you would most like the EU to have achieved by 2030. 205 00:25:31,860 --> 00:25:46,830 Here is what he had to say. I would like to see Europe as a strong, self-confident, determined entity in the world policy, 206 00:25:46,830 --> 00:26:01,830 its close ties to our transatlantic partners, North America and democratic countries all over the world to defend ocracy, 207 00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:10,260 human rights, the rule of law, fair trade and continent, 208 00:26:10,260 --> 00:26:29,670 which is able to influence work policies in a way which serves the people, not only the European countries, but the world. 209 00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:36,420 I know you have specific recommendations for what the U.S. should be doing in this regard before we jump into that. 210 00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:44,340 I would like to just reserve a little bit more space to discussing what young Europeans want within this domain. 211 00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:48,600 And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, 212 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:57,420 most Europeans are not really a big difference across age groups with regard to the desire for a common foreign policy. 213 00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:03,480 Where are the differences between young Europeans and other generations? 214 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:12,000 This was something we struggled with in the sense that we had to sort of look through other statistics or rather 215 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:19,500 statistical data focussed on other topics to sort of try and discern what younger Europeans feel about foreign policy, 216 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:22,920 because, again, there wasn't a lot of targeted data. 217 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,430 But for sure, you know, EU foreign policy is not a top priority. 218 00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:37,230 Top priorities are fighting climate change, improving education, fighting poverty, as well as social and economic inequalities, creating jobs. 219 00:27:37,230 --> 00:27:45,690 It's improving health and well-being. Right. So in a sense, you could you could see this is very domestic needs focussed. 220 00:27:45,690 --> 00:27:51,270 What I care about is being able to travel across EU member states as being able to find a job, 221 00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:57,720 is being able to do my Erasmus and have that experience right. So those are the things that young Europeans want. 222 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,770 So foreign policy certainly feels remote. 223 00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:08,980 Policymakers and the politicians and the technocrats and the diplomats, not something that relates to young Europeans. 224 00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:18,540 And I think certainly one of the priorities, not just for the European Union, I mean, let's not put too much on the shoulders of the poor EU, 225 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:21,780 but certainly something that falls also on capitalist, you know, 226 00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:29,220 nation states is to really underscore the external dimension of every internal policy and vice versa. 227 00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:38,250 So probably what young Europeans do not fully grasp and again, probably because of a lack of conversation on the topic, 228 00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:46,230 is that things like job security is strictly related to external migration. 229 00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:53,790 External migration is strictly related to development and aid policy, trade policy trade partnerships with third countries. 230 00:28:53,790 --> 00:29:01,950 Are those equitable or not? What is that you doing in sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America in the Asian continent? 231 00:29:01,950 --> 00:29:06,990 What kind of trade deals is it establishing with the US, Canada, China? 232 00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:12,780 What are the ramifications of those trade agreements on you citizens everyday lives? 233 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:22,230 And again, the impact and relevance of you foreign and security policy applies to everyday issues. 234 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:33,810 So just another angle to maybe poke a bit at this phenomenon that we need different ways of getting out the stories that matter to young Europeans. 235 00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:45,350 Is it your impression that foreign policy has never really been a primary concern for most people living in most societies or. 236 00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:50,210 Do you think the alternative is that there have been certain times and places 237 00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:55,730 when that's been different from what you seem to be saying about Europe today? 238 00:29:55,730 --> 00:30:05,360 As part of the work I've been doing in Dublin, my PhD, I was involved in some of the work that the Irish Commission on the Defence Forces, 239 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:11,300 which was appointed by the government to make recommendations for the reform of the Irish Defence Forces. 240 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:18,050 One of the issues a lot of European countries have been facing, which I think has also to do involves young Europeans, 241 00:30:18,050 --> 00:30:24,260 is how do we deal with recruitment for our armed forces and our reserve forces? 242 00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:28,080 And some countries have tried to be creative with this. 243 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,420 One of them is Germany, but also Sweden. Finland. Right. 244 00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:39,890 And they've tried to sort of get more and more young Europeans to join either the armed forces, the reserve forces, even in creative ways. 245 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:44,450 Right. So just develop, I don't know, cyber reserve forces. 246 00:30:44,450 --> 00:30:54,950 So get people from I.T. programmes and universities to go and be reservists for the armed forces and certainly for Sweden and Finland. 247 00:30:54,950 --> 00:31:00,030 But I can imagine for Poland, countries that feel more imminent security threat. 248 00:31:00,030 --> 00:31:03,530 So even the Baltic countries, 249 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:11,330 young generations there might actually be more attuned to foreign and security threats and concerns because there are so immediate. 250 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:11,750 Right. 251 00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:23,990 And and there have been discussions for quite some time there about getting young generations to actively participate in the defence of the country. 252 00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:29,210 Right. More so than in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, for sure. 253 00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:34,250 So let's say that certainly probably creates somewhat of a divide. 254 00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:43,130 So I'd be interested in seeing data on that. I mean, that is a really, really interesting and also a huge question. 255 00:31:43,130 --> 00:31:49,190 I think in a few words, what I would say is that the usual attitude. 256 00:31:49,190 --> 00:32:01,490 In the foreign policy community is to say we should explain our foreign policy narratives to the people, we should pedagogically explain. 257 00:32:01,490 --> 00:32:14,400 Why this will that is important. Why intervening in Afghanistan or in Libya or in Iraq is important because people don't really understand why. 258 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:20,450 There's always been a kind of top down reflex in this area. 259 00:32:20,450 --> 00:32:28,280 As though foreign policy is the preserve of leaders. And this is an attitude has deep roots, of course. 260 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:38,090 I mean, basically until the first European modernity, foreign policy was very much to preserve the princes, the kings and queens. 261 00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:44,090 They were the ones who would define who our friends, allies, enemies and adversaries. 262 00:32:44,090 --> 00:32:51,480 And essentially the people had very little in. To an extent, this still happens today. 263 00:32:51,480 --> 00:33:03,210 I mean, if you look at how the French Fifth Republic is set up, that is still very much the case, what the French call precarity of the president, 264 00:33:03,210 --> 00:33:12,750 the real his remet, his area of his main prerogatives are actually in the foreign policy and defence area. 265 00:33:12,750 --> 00:33:19,260 If you look at the EU level, there has always been this sort of functionalist temperament. 266 00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:24,660 Dysfunction is reflex, which consists of saying we will achieve coordination, 267 00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:35,000 cooperation and ultimately integration in the defence sector by a sort of functionalist mechanism of integrating the armed forces. 268 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:43,170 But actually, there are very few people who make the opposite argument, which is to say, instead of having these grand. 269 00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:49,800 Foreign policy narratives that you have to explain to the people, why not reverse the logic? 270 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:56,560 Why not start from. Well, I would like to call in the context of this project the strategic stories, 271 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:04,950 why not start with essentially why it's impossible at a given time for people to procure mosques? 272 00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:12,060 Why is it impossible at a given time for people to procure gas, 273 00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:21,390 which is currently the case in the United Kingdom, and start from there, start from these everyday stories? 274 00:34:21,390 --> 00:34:29,820 Start with the people, from the people, not against the people, not explain to the people why foreign policy is important, 275 00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:36,780 but actually start from the everyday stories and in a way, in a more Bottom-Up way than than the top down. 276 00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:41,700 I think both are obviously useful because as Mariano was saying. 277 00:34:41,700 --> 00:34:50,970 Not all citizens really are interested or feel concerned or really know about 278 00:34:50,970 --> 00:34:55,590 the complexity and the ramifications of the way the international system works. 279 00:34:55,590 --> 00:34:59,490 That's for sure. I think it would be very helpful. 280 00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:05,640 I think if you look at the polling, if you look at the interviews, it's very clear that some people have a very personal, 281 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:11,880 intimate relationship to what might seem these grand foreign policy shifts. 282 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:19,210 If you look at what people in the interviews have been saying about the Berlin Wall, about freedom of movement. 283 00:35:19,210 --> 00:35:28,720 Or about Erasmus, these are all very intimate, personal stories, I remember one of the interviews which I conducted with with Nathalie Tocci, 284 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:36,910 which was very touching because she was describing Erasmus and the EU and she was describing the way she met her current husband. 285 00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:42,910 I think it was in the baeza in a nightclub. And that would not have happened without the EU and without Erasmus. 286 00:35:42,910 --> 00:35:47,830 So actually, a lot of these stories are very personal and very intimate and very touching. 287 00:35:47,830 --> 00:35:56,200 So why not actually make the most of that and start from there instead of starting from the kind of the grand strategy and the grand narrative? 288 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:11,350 And I think this project plugs some of this gap. If you've been listening to episodes, you probably know by now that we asked all interviewees, 289 00:36:11,350 --> 00:36:14,260 what is the single most important thing that you have done for them? 290 00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:21,670 First, for Natalie Torchy, the director of the Institute of International in Rome. 291 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:29,020 Europe had an impact on all aspects of her life. Listen to what she said to Olivier when he interviewed. 292 00:36:29,020 --> 00:36:39,620 Had it not been for you. I would not have started my career working in the think tank in Brussels, commuting on the Eurostar to London. 293 00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:44,210 I was doing my DHT every week and that would not. 294 00:36:44,210 --> 00:36:48,820 And I remember sitting back then not even showing basically my identity. 295 00:36:48,820 --> 00:36:54,970 And then after my A.M. tightening up, you know, back then I was used. 296 00:36:54,970 --> 00:37:01,870 It really literally felt like kind of getting on a train. And then, you know, had it not been for the evening, I don't know. 297 00:37:01,870 --> 00:37:09,370 Maybe I would. Maybe I wouldn't. But I would not have travelled as much on holiday in Europe. 298 00:37:09,370 --> 00:37:18,250 And on one of those occasions, I met my future husband out clubbing and places you go. 299 00:37:18,250 --> 00:37:23,290 So, you know, I think, you know, basically it personalised the education, be it. 300 00:37:23,290 --> 00:37:34,130 Right. I basically decide who I owe Europe, everything. 301 00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:39,590 On that note, what other recommendations do you have for the EU in this domain? 302 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:43,700 What should the EU do with regard to foreign policy? 303 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:55,250 So one thing that is definitely close to my heart is the need for the European Union to set credible, achievable goals. 304 00:37:55,250 --> 00:38:02,600 Right. So I think the way we phrased it was to under promise and over deliver. 305 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:08,270 Right. So try and be a little bit less rhetorically bold and say things like, 306 00:38:08,270 --> 00:38:12,980 we are a geopolitical commission and Europe needs to start speaking the language of power. 307 00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:20,750 Right. Which were baratz word and rather again, within the context of European strategic autonomy, 308 00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:26,240 which I think is a definite goal that the European Union should pursue and is pursuing. 309 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:35,480 Right. In the section of our chapter where we say what the EU has done, we detail all the initiatives that go in this direction. 310 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:42,830 Right. But certainly Europe needs to be very clear about what capabilities it wants to be autonomous on on the 311 00:38:42,830 --> 00:38:49,490 one hand and where it accepts it can have dependencies and it wants to cooperate with other partners, 312 00:38:49,490 --> 00:38:58,310 the U.S., the U.K., for instance. And and there you need to strike a balance, set your based on your strategic goals, 313 00:38:58,310 --> 00:39:08,840 which you have set in the new global strategy and is trying to further define with the strategic compass and then pursue those. 314 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:22,910 Right. Because one thing that the EU can do to make foreign policy more relevant is to go to the public and say, hey, these where our strategic goals, 315 00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:29,240 these were the capabilities that we wanted to develop and we did it as opposed to further 316 00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:36,350 reinforcing this expectation capability gap that we've been talking about for decades. 317 00:39:36,350 --> 00:39:46,880 So that's certainly one priority. And then the other one I'll speak to and then hand it over to tollgate is this idea of what kind of 318 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:54,290 power Europe wants to be and to the question that was asked earlier about the concept of superpower, 319 00:39:54,290 --> 00:40:02,090 that's really, you know, balance that you need to find between being a sort of force for good. 320 00:40:02,090 --> 00:40:07,190 Right. This this integration process, this this success story. 321 00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:07,550 Right. 322 00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:21,230 That goes counter to the real politic logic and the need to deal with an overly aggressive Russia, a very ambitious China, a less than reliable us. 323 00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:31,250 And you need to actually acknowledge the reality of the world you live in, which, of course, is very much of the challenge. 324 00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:37,820 And I think I've seen this elsewhere as well, that you've really needs to leverage its strengths. 325 00:40:37,820 --> 00:40:41,840 And it is a trade superpower. It's an economic superpower. 326 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,880 And it's also a sort of norm setter in a number of areas, you know, 327 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:55,520 from the GDP are to a number of other seemingly dry policy areas that are, however, force other countries to follow suit. 328 00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:02,480 Right. And in that sense, that you can really be a green civilian superpower, 329 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:08,590 which would also be in line with a lot of the priorities of young Europeans, including the fight against climate change. 330 00:41:08,590 --> 00:41:15,040 If I can just give a few illustrations and very striking examples of what my has said, 331 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,710 because actually the past year has thrown up quite a few of the. 332 00:41:19,710 --> 00:41:29,460 So, for example, van der Leyen said this year in her State of the Union that we should stop talking down the EU. 333 00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:35,640 I say, OK, fair enough. But let's also stop talking up the EU. 334 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:36,930 As Maryanna said, 335 00:41:36,930 --> 00:41:53,870 let's focus on leveraging the strengths that the EU currently has instead of perpetually formulating very broad and ambitious foreign policy aims. 336 00:41:53,870 --> 00:42:03,350 That the EU has essentially been setting out now for 10, 20 years, especially in the area of defence. 337 00:42:03,350 --> 00:42:10,220 And to be fair, it has achieved some of them and it's in the process of achieving some more. 338 00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:21,170 But let's be careful of overpromising, because the problem when the overpromises in the foreign policy and defence area is that this may be 339 00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:25,700 good in the short term because it means that people mobilise and you can mobilise member states. 340 00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:29,930 But in the long term, the danger is you're losing European citizens. 341 00:42:29,930 --> 00:42:34,760 You're you you're basically losing the backbone, the the ultimate. 342 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,440 What is the condition of possibility for EU politics, a new policy in the first place, 343 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,830 which is the faith that European citizens have in the EU's capacity to do and deliver stuff. 344 00:42:45,830 --> 00:42:54,320 So essentially, instead of over promising and under delivering, do the opposite, under promise and over deliver, 345 00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:05,990 this might avoid things such as what happened to Berlin in Moscow, which was one of the illustrations of the EU trying to be a geopolitical actor. 346 00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:11,870 I would focus, as Maryanna said, on leveraging the strengths that we already have in building from there, 347 00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:17,000 showing that the EU can can actually achieve tangible results and building on that 348 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:23,660 as opposed to this kind of pie in the sky blue thinking type of foreign policy. 349 00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:31,150 On on her other point. What's interesting is the current defence pact between the UK, 350 00:43:31,150 --> 00:43:42,070 the US and Australia is a very timely reminder of the strategic solitude that the EU faces on the world stage. 351 00:43:42,070 --> 00:43:51,580 If you are not prepared to defend your own interests, then somebody else will, and it will probably not be in your own interests. 352 00:43:51,580 --> 00:43:57,190 So the EU has to define what its interests are and what it's prepared to defend. 353 00:43:57,190 --> 00:44:04,030 First of all, we'll see what's in the treaties. That's the values which are set out in the treaties they're enshrined. 354 00:44:04,030 --> 00:44:09,140 So that would be a good start. And then you need to decide whether. 355 00:44:09,140 --> 00:44:13,070 You should depend on China for masks on, Russia for gas. 356 00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:17,930 Basically, it comes down to that and you might very well want to that might be the case. 357 00:44:17,930 --> 00:44:20,060 But if you don't want to, then don't. 358 00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:27,650 And make sure you create the conditions for not depending on one third party powers in areas you don't want to depend on, 359 00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:35,170 third party powers on inside. The third suggestion we set out is. 360 00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:42,010 For the EU to try to kerb its institutional turf wars. 361 00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:48,520 So the the infighting that sometimes the EU Commission and the EU Council. 362 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:56,980 Get into and be more prepared to look at issues instead of from the inside out from the European Council, 363 00:44:56,980 --> 00:45:01,870 out of the European Commission, out do it the other way around. 364 00:45:01,870 --> 00:45:09,670 Look from the outside. Then if you take the example of the so-called SOFORT earlier this year when the president 365 00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:14,260 of the European Commission and the president of the European Council went to Turkey, 366 00:45:14,260 --> 00:45:24,220 this would have avoided the sofa, because if you actually spend some time to ponder the devastating impact that image has. 367 00:45:24,220 --> 00:45:28,300 Sorry, Olivia, can you briefly describe what social was? 368 00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:36,220 It was in April, twenty, twenty one, when Lucila Tom DeLay and Sean Michel went to visit Erdogan in Turkey. 369 00:45:36,220 --> 00:45:46,210 There was a protocol conundrum and essentially only two chairs were laid out for Turkey's president and the president of the European Council. 370 00:45:46,210 --> 00:45:51,610 And so the president of the European Commission, who was a woman, had to sit on the sofa. 371 00:45:51,610 --> 00:45:55,810 This obviously has a sort of devastating. 372 00:45:55,810 --> 00:46:06,690 Impact in terms of image for European citizens, because it basically shows the EU not having a coherent foreign policy issues. 373 00:46:06,690 --> 00:46:10,960 The European Council and the Commission having a diversity of interests. 374 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:20,200 And it also projects that image abroad outside of Europe, which I think that European policymakers should bear in mind, 375 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:25,960 instead of advancing their own interests of one or other of the European institutions. 376 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:35,810 Look at Europe as a whole and also from the outside in. 377 00:46:35,810 --> 00:46:40,860 The connexion between the EU's foreign policy and the perception of the EU as a whole came across 378 00:46:40,860 --> 00:46:47,060 when we interviewed probably just a college professor in European law at Warsaw University. 379 00:46:47,060 --> 00:46:53,450 Listen to what he had to say when we asked him about the one thing he would most like the EU to have achieved by 2030. 380 00:46:53,450 --> 00:47:03,680 The goal for us for the future in 10 years is to create a really foreign policy in foreign policy. 381 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:14,020 It will be a signal signal for other states that European Union is really a union. 382 00:47:14,020 --> 00:47:19,630 So we've talked a lot in the last few questions about the geopolitics, 383 00:47:19,630 --> 00:47:27,220 so I now want to bring this back to the young Europeans, how whether in general or about Europe in a changing world. 384 00:47:27,220 --> 00:47:33,280 Did this project lead you to see young Europeans differently? 385 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,440 If at all, I mean, it's interesting because, of course, 386 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:48,790 I live in a little bit of a bubble because most of the young Europeans I talk to and know are very much interested in EU foreign policy. 387 00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:53,890 I think it's a very important priority for the European Union. 388 00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:59,920 So, you know, naturally, this is a bit of a skewed perception of how things really are. 389 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:12,680 So, you know, it was a good reality check in the sense that and we we scholars and practitioners and policymakers cannot. 390 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:23,420 Assume that just because there is an abstract consensus around this vague idea of, yes, more common EU foreign policy, 391 00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:30,050 that we're going to enjoy public support for very specific initiatives like Pascall, 392 00:48:30,050 --> 00:48:37,160 like buying 10 fighter jets, like participating in European defence fund projects. 393 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:43,580 So I think young Europeans, I cannot dispute the priorities they have and what they value. 394 00:48:43,580 --> 00:48:56,450 It's just, I think, a question of perhaps investing some time and resources from a whole host of factors in making people understand how 395 00:48:56,450 --> 00:49:05,300 foreign and security policy really has ramifications on all aspects of life and therefore how at the very least, 396 00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:14,390 citizens should try and monitor what decision makers are doing in those areas, if not try and provide their input. 397 00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:22,430 But at the same time, as you were saying, we should then also open our eyes and ears and listen, not a little bit more. 398 00:49:22,430 --> 00:49:27,590 And if it's a grim green civilian superpower that young Europeans want, 399 00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:38,090 then let's give it to them, you know, so maybe, yes, let's invest in a I and drome swarms. 400 00:49:38,090 --> 00:49:47,900 But also let's see if there is a way for the European Union to embark on initiatives that reduce carbon emissions a little bit more. 401 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:56,750 And if we can think creatively about how the EU can do that effectively again, then what's realistic? 402 00:49:56,750 --> 00:50:00,680 Just to add very quickly, I think it's a two way. 403 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:10,680 I think it's a two way process. I think the the EU and European politicians in general. 404 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:17,340 Including European capitals have a lot to learn from the younger generation when it comes, for example, 405 00:50:17,340 --> 00:50:25,230 to the urgency that is felt when it comes to tackling climate change, the biodiversity crisis and so on. 406 00:50:25,230 --> 00:50:30,480 It's important for the EU institutions to take this enthusiasm. 407 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:36,510 On board, I think it's also important to explain the way things are connected, 408 00:50:36,510 --> 00:50:44,550 as Mariana said, and it's important to communicate the fact, for example, that. 409 00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:54,910 You can't on the one hand put up a social media posts about tackling the biodiversity crisis or climate change, 410 00:50:54,910 --> 00:51:07,290 and then in the next second go on to an online retailer and buy piles of fast fashion that you will discard in a couple of weeks if this doesn't work. 411 00:51:07,290 --> 00:51:15,000 So I think it's a two way process is making sure that you take on board the energy and aspirations of the younger generation, 412 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,910 but also making sure the younger generation understands some of the. 413 00:51:20,910 --> 00:51:23,280 Connexions and the ramifications, 414 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:33,270 because I think there's also a tendency at work in the younger generation to think that whatever you essentially do online is enough, 415 00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:40,050 that whatever you do online will have a ramification in in real life, which is obviously not always the case. 416 00:51:40,050 --> 00:51:44,530 The saying in French, which is sui generis, 417 00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:55,350 every a tiny bit stereotypical because what it means in English is if only a young generation knew and if only the old generation 418 00:51:55,350 --> 00:52:04,880 could this the stereotypical because the younger generation knows a lot more than the older generation in all things technology, 419 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:14,940 it has more of a sense of the environmental crisis. So it should essentially seek to make sure the older generation learns about this, but vice versa. 420 00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:26,490 I think the older generation can also be useful in explaining some of the connexions and political complexities of fighting for one's ideals. 421 00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:30,420 A very good question to which I would ask for a very quick answer. 422 00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:40,290 And with this we conclude, are you more hopeful or less hopeful about the future of foreign policy in Europe after working on this chapter? 423 00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:49,470 I realise that the EU keeps making some of the same old mistakes over and over and over, which is not too reassuring. 424 00:52:49,470 --> 00:53:01,590 And yet at the same time, you cannot fail to acknowledge it would really be unfair to ignore how much the European Union, be it the member states, 425 00:53:01,590 --> 00:53:12,960 the Commission, the European External Action Service, has improved in terms of the issues that incorporates on the types of initiatives it launches. 426 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:23,080 Right. I mean, Pesco, for all its detractors, was pretty, pretty outstanding measure. 427 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:30,900 The European Defence Fund, the same thing. The new directorate general for Defence and Space. 428 00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:41,250 Right. Did you disease. These are all pretty outstanding initiatives that only 20 years ago would have been pretty hard to mention. 429 00:53:41,250 --> 00:53:48,600 Again, my hope is that the EU can take on board some of the input from the younger generations and vice versa, 430 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,080 that the younger generations get better, 431 00:53:52,080 --> 00:54:03,620 sort of better and clearer messaging from the EU about what it is to try and be a union in today's security environment. 432 00:54:03,620 --> 00:54:11,320 Thanks, and you are for a brief response. So instead of creating a French populist saying this time I will close, 433 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:24,220 so I will quote a 17th century Dutch Jewish philosopher who is close to my heart, Benedict Spinoza, who said, it is not about laughing or crying. 434 00:54:24,220 --> 00:54:29,800 It is about understanding. So I'm not hopeful or I'm not dejected. 435 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:38,290 I just want to understand the determinism of what has brought you to its current progress 436 00:54:38,290 --> 00:54:45,520 and impulses and from their own try to nudge in the direction I think would be best, 437 00:54:45,520 --> 00:55:03,730 not just for the old white males in power in Brussels, but also for the diversity of the younger generation, who is really the the EU's future. 438 00:55:03,730 --> 00:55:11,020 Our guests today were Mariano Nagato and Olivier Diphones, a huge thanks to our podcast editor, 439 00:55:11,020 --> 00:55:18,910 Billy Creagan, our research manager, Luisa Miller, and our report editor, Professor Timothy Garton Ash. 440 00:55:18,910 --> 00:55:22,720 We're also grateful to our funders, the Swedish Nobel Foundation, 441 00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:28,300 the teachers system and the system couple for making the Europe Stories Project Corcos possible. 442 00:55:28,300 --> 00:55:33,490 A special thank you to Ellen Miach, that Lily striker, Maev Moynihan, 443 00:55:33,490 --> 00:55:42,370 Sophie Verité and Victoria Hansell for contributing to the podcast production music by Unicorn Heads and CATSA. 444 00:55:42,370 --> 00:55:50,050 Finally, thank you to the whole group stories project team. I'm your host, Anna Martins, and I'm your host Lucasta. 445 00:55:50,050 --> 00:55:55,630 Thank you for listening today. Join us for the next episode of the Europe Stories podcast and until then, 446 00:55:55,630 --> 00:56:12,983 you can find out more about our research project at European moments dotcom.