1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:05,100 Thank you very much for coming. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:12,120 Welcome, Morris. I'll start with the title Poland's Peaceful Revolution. 3 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:21,509 25 years after the Polish roundtable talks anniversary, this is usually an occasion not only to talk about past events, 4 00:00:21,510 --> 00:00:25,589 but also to reach a real value, which they their importance. 5 00:00:25,590 --> 00:00:32,630 And this is quite obvious that such a such a year, eight, nine. 6 00:00:33,750 --> 00:00:42,510 Already the past, I think changed very much significance and it means today different thinks that at the moment of events I 7 00:00:42,510 --> 00:00:51,840 remember I was then in France and I felt it dramatically in 1898 was 200th anniversary of the French Revolution, 8 00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:59,100 and it was almost from one day to another. It was clear how dramatically the perception of the revolution was. 9 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:07,770 French Revolution change it, which was a foundation of day, of the French, of the French ideal of political thinking. 10 00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:12,089 And if you are talking now about certain crisis in France, 11 00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:21,180 I think that the part of the attitudes towards history and the question of French Revolution plays certain role very to us in a way, 12 00:01:21,210 --> 00:01:26,310 what was happening in Central Europe and in Poland. 13 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,079 It was a dramatic shock for French. 14 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,140 I remember big events prepared by president. 15 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:52,259 We did how for Catholics year 14 4th of July it was enormous event was prepared it it was for four very great events and how it was diminished by 16 00:01:52,260 --> 00:02:02,730 the by the revolution which were just the opposite to the model which was popularised model of French Revolution with with the role of utopia, 17 00:02:02,750 --> 00:02:06,130 with the role of violence, mass mobilisations. 18 00:02:07,930 --> 00:02:12,180 So I think that when we are talking about and I, 19 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:19,710 it can be good occasion also to talk about the changing significance about 8 to 9, but a few thoughts about the film. 20 00:02:21,270 --> 00:02:26,459 Film is about incredible events around table negotiation. 21 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:35,460 For the first time, communist authorities accepted to to negotiate to negotiate with people who were presenting themselves 22 00:02:35,490 --> 00:02:41,879 as a representative so they could so by definition that the estimates the Communist Party, 23 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:50,670 of course, was based on the on the conviction of the ideology of representing that the the masses, the working people. 24 00:02:50,670 --> 00:03:00,600 So it was already quite obvious the recognition of the end of the of the power, communist power, 25 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:07,860 to accept such an estrangement and to negotiate with others as representatives of the forces. 26 00:03:08,340 --> 00:03:15,840 By definition, Communists were supposed to represent why they were accepting to negotiate for quite obvious reason, 27 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:24,990 because the Polish economy was in dramatic situation. 28 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:30,570 Preparing myself I was thinking of all the time about what is happening in Ukraine today. 29 00:03:31,410 --> 00:03:36,860 I would not say that this is a exactly similar situation, but there is a lot of similarities. 30 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:41,790 The problem is that the Polish communist authorities have chosen different way. 31 00:03:43,650 --> 00:03:49,770 Actually, Poland was already dramatically indebted towards the West at that at that time. 32 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:57,809 And and Polish authorities, they knew very well that in order to impose certain I'm certain, 33 00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:07,139 obstructive measures which are absolutely necessary and economic reform, they must have a larger social support. 34 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:11,370 They must have collaboration of the opposition. 35 00:04:11,370 --> 00:04:14,069 It was the source, not only idealism, 36 00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:23,940 it was the source of the recognition of the necessity of all of those of those negotiations to understand to understand 37 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:32,520 why we must go further to to the past when we are talking about Polish peaceful revolution that is in Poland, 38 00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:40,259 even there is the problem which understanding what what exactly the moment was this peaceful revolution 39 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:47,670 that's that is this is the problem of idea Polish identity but also also some ideological conflict. 40 00:04:47,910 --> 00:04:59,310 Which event is the most important? There are people who would attach the most important, the biggest importance to to round table negotiation. 41 00:04:59,980 --> 00:05:07,780 And those are usually people who were very much contributing to the launching negotiation on both sides. 42 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:14,200 For them, this is funding means both are capable to talk, not to fight, 43 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,330 but to talk to each other and to find a political solution to all these problems. 44 00:05:19,390 --> 00:05:24,940 But there's another which is gaining to say the truth as a sort of legitimacy of today's Poland. 45 00:05:25,330 --> 00:05:34,510 This is the June fought. This is the Soviet free election of the consequence of of roundtable negotiation. 46 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:39,190 But it was not tightly controlled by elite roundtable negotiation. 47 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,310 It was the business by definition of ability, of course. 48 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:52,720 For June, it was a shock for both sides in a way that dramatically better results of governments who lost election. 49 00:05:53,050 --> 00:05:57,430 It was a shock not only for the communists, it was the shock also for solidarity. 50 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,350 It was the source of the fear of so that it can provoke Soviet intervention. 51 00:06:02,890 --> 00:06:09,219 But anyway, this for June, the same date of the tragedy on Gentlemen Square, 52 00:06:09,220 --> 00:06:16,600 just to remind you also of the other possible model of the development in the communist in the communist country. 53 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:23,320 But but there are other dates which are very important the same year. 54 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:29,200 And this is why for post this is extremely difficult to say when it started through this is there 55 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:35,850 in September it denied this is formation of the first non-communist government of the day, 56 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:42,640 which must be a although with participants of appeal, the representative said quite an important representative of Communist Party. 57 00:06:42,910 --> 00:06:46,290 Minister of Defence. Minister of Interior in Russia. 58 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:55,180 They would say celebrity those who controlled it sue the force at the last day. 59 00:06:55,270 --> 00:06:58,749 Also very important. I will talk about it a little bit later. 60 00:06:58,750 --> 00:07:04,780 This is the big reforms in December, but the rubbish reforms, this is practically economic revolution, 61 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,850 revolution, big bank economic, big bank economic revolution, abolition important. 62 00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:15,470 But to say to to another date is much more important, I think, than those old days. 63 00:07:15,490 --> 00:07:18,700 This is ten days, ten years earlier. 64 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:28,180 This is solidarity movement. We cannot understand the roundtable negotiation and accepted by the Communist Party to negotiate with other 65 00:07:28,180 --> 00:07:37,330 side beat without the pact it in Poland we had in 1881 the powerful movement practically all society, 66 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,219 10 million members of the so-called workers solidarity. 67 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:51,790 Although it was not only workers, intelligentsia, employees that died, state employees and so on, plus one and a half million of peasant solidarity. 68 00:07:51,790 --> 00:07:58,240 If you multiply by the number of members of the family, practically it was trade union of the Polish nation, 69 00:07:58,450 --> 00:08:03,490 it was Organisation of Poland with the participation of more than 1 million party members. 70 00:08:04,510 --> 00:08:14,860 It was extremely powerful movement which which practically questioned the existing 71 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:23,310 system and although it was broken down by the imposition of so-called in 72 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:30,470 Polish state of for this is that exceptional this state exceptional is the 73 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,990 police conditions this movement survived to big extent during those ten years. 74 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:41,060 This is also and most of all, 75 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:51,870 why authorities recognised the necessity of of of negotiating of of talking with the other side and looking for for the compromise. 76 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:57,490 Of course, there was another very important intervening factor. 77 00:08:57,490 --> 00:09:01,900 Intervening factor. This is too weak to say this is Gorbachev factor. 78 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,740 Without Gorbachev, it wouldn't have it would have been possible. 79 00:09:07,270 --> 00:09:13,330 Gorbachev accepted the negotiation practically in the 86. 80 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,650 He said to yourselves, You go on trial and teach you. 81 00:09:18,670 --> 00:09:20,139 Some of you may be remembered. 82 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:32,020 It was famous sentence source spokesman Gerasimov, who said who use the term so-called Sinatra doctrine that everyone can sing his own way, 83 00:09:32,710 --> 00:09:39,130 which was a recognition of the fact that each country, so called socialist country, 84 00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:43,690 can go its own way and the Soviet Union will not intervene anymore. 85 00:09:44,110 --> 00:09:51,790 So it allowed this experimentation by using buy, buy, buy, buy your students. 86 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:59,920 In the situation of mounting tensions already, I cannot enter into the details this decision. 87 00:10:00,580 --> 00:10:09,490 To go to negotiate to to negotiate with the widow of their son. 88 00:10:11,090 --> 00:10:18,310 That's a very interesting problem of interpretation of a two hour conflict, more general consideration. 89 00:10:19,810 --> 00:10:26,620 In Poland, this is a sort of mystery that 89 is usually or almost always everywhere. 90 00:10:26,620 --> 00:10:38,080 It's identified with the Berlin Wall. This is considered as a sort of profound historical, moral injustice, because that's true in Berlin. 91 00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:45,550 It was not the result of it was not Basti, it was not 1789. 92 00:10:45,550 --> 00:10:50,570 A city was destroyed by the people. The world was not destroyed by the people. 93 00:10:50,620 --> 00:11:00,810 The wall was destroyed by the people. When the West entries to the West were opened already by delattre by the mistake, actually. 94 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:09,100 But it was that person. So in Poland there's a feeling of certain injustice, because that's true, 95 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:16,120 that Poland was first, it was the beginning was in Poland not only ten years before in 80, 96 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:22,600 but also in 89 round table negotiation, which after which we are imitated in Hungary, in some other countries. 97 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:30,700 It started in Poland. Of course, this is for the reasons which it's nothing against Poles. 98 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,830 This is just this shows the interpretation of reality which prevails in the West that the most important factor, 99 00:11:36,850 --> 00:11:39,310 which was not the fate of the people of those countries, 100 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:50,020 but the geopolitical consideration that Berlin Wall was a symbol of divide, that Europe of divided war, destruction of Berlin Wall. 101 00:11:50,110 --> 00:11:54,160 Reunification of Germany meant reunification of Europe. 102 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,510 The end of the world of the Cold War from the point of the West. 103 00:11:58,540 --> 00:12:08,980 Of course, it was important, not the problem of the fate of the people or Poles, or even Germans for that matter. 104 00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:19,149 So this is explained. So of course it is another factor which can be partly explained by the modern media logic that of 105 00:12:19,150 --> 00:12:25,540 course the wall is much more picturesque and through subplots much more busted than round table, 106 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:36,070 which is quite annoying bureaucratic instrument of everyday sport, although not such a big, not such a big, not such a big table. 107 00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:41,080 So it did not until today in Poland. 108 00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:45,100 This is the subject of the political fights, 109 00:12:45,850 --> 00:12:55,570 because this is this is the fight about the interpretation of the history and of the roles of difference of different occurrence. 110 00:12:56,410 --> 00:13:03,969 And and there are certain elements trying to delegitimize. 111 00:13:03,970 --> 00:13:08,950 I deny pretending that Soviet agents played a major role, 112 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:21,730 that the people representing solidarity were practically manipulated by the police, or if they themselves were not Polish police agents. 113 00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:24,640 But in the same time, it it cannot work. 114 00:13:24,650 --> 00:13:35,620 So even the people who are trying to popularise such an interpretation, they cannot they cannot to put something to society in such an interpretation. 115 00:13:36,340 --> 00:13:39,620 It doesn't mean that the attitudes of the people you shouldn't. 116 00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:43,209 You must be favourable to it. Enough already. 117 00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:51,460 In 8 to 9 first century election, only about 63% of Poles participated in the election. 118 00:13:51,730 --> 00:14:03,480 Actually, just of course, was one of the leading personalities of the opposition, very important to generally sort of to obstruct the parliamentarian. 119 00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:11,799 You were saying that we didn't have support to be part of the population, that even of intellectuals quite were was quite sceptical. 120 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,160 And it was the case there was a fear of manipulation. 121 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:20,650 The first authorities that will try to build their own legitimacy of their policy, 122 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:27,610 heart harsh economic policy, and they will try to destroy afterwards opposition. 123 00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:37,690 But afterwards, till today, actually there was a lack of interest in being part of the population, lack of interest in the politics in general. 124 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:45,340 Today, Poland is this very strange country with one of the lowest level of participation in the in that in the in the election. 125 00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:51,940 So there is a certain paradox that it is the country which probably the biggest social movement in the history of mankind, 126 00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:57,070 you know, to 12 millions out of 37 million. 127 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:04,190 So the population and in the centre. A country where it's one of the lowest in Europe, the level of mutual trust, 128 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:10,820 of the capacity to organise themselves and of participation intellectually. 129 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,410 So we can say that our time to difference moments and behaviour, 130 00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:24,080 interdependence moment in exceptional moments of uprising of mass national movements, polls are mobilising otherwise. 131 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,670 Not very much. Not very much. Now, I would like. All right. 132 00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:38,810 I would like to say a few words about what I would consider the second part of our peaceful revolution. 133 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:45,290 That is already I'm not entering into the problem of whether we can call it a revolution or not revolution. 134 00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:54,980 So if there are certain ambiguities about the character, so I can last and last the concept and to speak about about fundamentals, 135 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,300 which are also one of the sources of today's Ukrainian tragedy. 136 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:03,590 Tragically, this is the problem of the transformation of social economic model. 137 00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:08,330 This is the the most painful death, 138 00:16:08,690 --> 00:16:21,530 the most difficult as see became obvious and a challenge to two new authorities after destruction of of communist of communist regime. 139 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,310 I remember we had common memories. 140 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:34,010 We had Timothy Garton Ash. We were we spent together in Woodrow Wilson Centre a year, 87 to 89. 141 00:16:34,010 --> 00:16:38,050 And afterwards we participated in the conference in the block in the summer. 142 00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:44,300 Audience Then we discussed the problem of the future of central central Central Europe. 143 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:51,320 I was sort of semi-official, representative opposition, so I couldn't speak to openly and to honestly. 144 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,260 So I said only some pessimistic things. 145 00:16:54,260 --> 00:17:03,070 I had to say that I would like to to reconstruct my thinking then, because it's also the source of certain intellectual humility. 146 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:09,139 I make my perception of the situation. But the situation that was quite pessimistic in comparison, 147 00:17:09,140 --> 00:17:14,750 especially with the countries neighbouring countries, Poles usually compared himself with Czechoslovakia. 148 00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:18,829 And then it was one country and we try again. 149 00:17:18,830 --> 00:17:27,860 Yes, you're right. I thought that it was before the big changes, but that that will be quite radical economic changes. 150 00:17:27,860 --> 00:17:35,480 It was quite obvious not nobody knew how radical political change was, but economic, social, it was quite obvious. 151 00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:44,209 Our first source of my pessimism was that that country, Poland, was in extremely profound crisis. 152 00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:53,300 We had hyperinflation then in Poland. Then Poland was much bigger country, much more complex country than alpha dog countries, 153 00:17:53,870 --> 00:18:00,350 less developed than Hungary and Czechoslovakia already before the war, but after the war as well. 154 00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:05,269 Quite anarchic, sort of anti-state culture, 155 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:15,980 which is also the consequence of hundreds of years of of division of Poland between Germany, Russia and Austria, a country. 156 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,600 But it was very important also that during the war was eliminated, 157 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:29,240 upper class or emigrated and ends to big extent middle class, especially to ethnic groups. 158 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:38,770 Jews were killed and Jews are present. That two very important elements of the upper middle class in Poland before were Jews were killed. 159 00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:44,690 The Germans were expelled just after the war, or they or to escape or they were expelled. 160 00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:56,480 And even the working class in Poland, which was relatively small in and not very developed in Poland before the war, was the proletariat split. 161 00:18:56,870 --> 00:19:02,270 It was patent country which very anachronistic type of pageantry, so to say, 162 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,249 to try to be passively optimistic about possible economic development in Poland. 163 00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:21,260 It, you know, it either or or the excessive optimism or just not to think about certain objective objective facts. 164 00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:31,850 You know, the gramsci's famous formula about the pessimism of knowledge and optimism of will 165 00:19:32,270 --> 00:19:43,180 people of action have much more will than than than the analytical time for analysis. 166 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:45,770 And paradoxically, 167 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:59,240 even three factors which were extremely important in preserving polish much bigger much bigger freedom during Saddam's time than elsewhere. 168 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:02,860 Where did you come in? It was elements of my analysis. 169 00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:13,100 The problem in the new Poland, which must be more liberal, which much adopted liberal model of developed market type economy. 170 00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:16,520 First it was the church which was very conservative, 171 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,910 and today this is very conservative with a very ambiguous attitudes towards market economy, towards capitalism. 172 00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:26,329 You know, there John Paul, the second he changed a little bit, 173 00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:32,500 the attitudes of the whole Catholic Church till quite recently had two very ambiguous attitudes. 174 00:20:33,020 --> 00:20:36,290 This was the case till today. After.