1
00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:05,010
Hello and welcome to other Monak. The Oxford Middle East podcast, Home Builders Focus.

2
00:00:05,010 --> 00:00:09,810
And today I am joined by Lily Sullivan and Hajim Earth to discuss language of the Middle East.

3
00:00:09,810 --> 00:00:11,340
We covered the region itself,

4
00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:20,540
the problems with the current discourse about the Middle East and the coverage of people within it and our own experiences studying it and travelling.

5
00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:26,330
Those representations of the Orient had very little to do with what I knew about my own background in life.

6
00:00:26,330 --> 00:00:33,230
And this writing was an organised form, writing like an organised science, what I've called Orientalism.

7
00:00:33,230 --> 00:00:42,470
My fellow citizens at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq,

8
00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:49,310
to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger to all the men and women of the United States armed forces.

9
00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:56,690
Now in the Middle East, the peace of a troubled world and the hopes of an oppressed people now depend on you.

10
00:00:56,690 --> 00:01:03,290
The events of 9/11 really convinced many Europeans and Americans that the greatest threat to their way of life,

11
00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:12,400
to the peace, their security lay in the Arab world, in particular in the Muslim world more generally.

12
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:19,190
So the first thing I think is important to mention with this episode is that the podcast is called the Middle East Podcast,

13
00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:23,580
and we all do Middle Eastern studies in Oxford, but we don't actually know.

14
00:01:23,580 --> 00:01:27,760
We'll have a strict definition of what the Middle East is. It is a very new term.

15
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,620
But how would you like to introduce the history of the modern Middle East and its political system?

16
00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:36,340
I think we can very comfortably track the foundations of the concept of the modern Middle

17
00:01:36,340 --> 00:01:41,710
East to the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire around the ending of World War One.

18
00:01:41,710 --> 00:01:45,610
They were in debt to multiple European powers.

19
00:01:45,610 --> 00:01:51,800
They had been left behind during the industrial revolution. Agricultural progress very, very limited.

20
00:01:51,800 --> 00:02:00,310
And the power of the empire was very much centralised in Anatolia, leaving these peripheral territories very much their own devices.

21
00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:10,030
And as a result of that, the Ottoman Empire, especially in the early nineteen hundreds, was, I say, plagued by socialists and independent movements.

22
00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:14,980
What fundamentally chiselled out the modern Middle East as we know it?

23
00:02:14,980 --> 00:02:23,740
Were these three agreements, declarations, treaties? You have the six Pekoe on May 16 that was signed on May 16th, 1916,

24
00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:29,820
which was an agreement between Mark Sykes, a British diplomat, a French diplomat, Friendswood Picco.

25
00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:36,760
And essentially they sat down, looked at a map of that region, identified the pre-existing Ottoman administrative unit,

26
00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:44,440
and drew up borders that would essentially placate the imperial ambitions of both Britain and France.

27
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:51,580
Britain got southern Iraq, Jordan, Palestine and France were given large chunks of Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Lebanon.

28
00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:56,020
Bearing in mind this, the Ottoman Empire had not yet formally dissolved.

29
00:02:56,020 --> 00:02:58,900
You then have the Balfour Declaration in 1917,

30
00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:06,050
which is a statement declaring British support for the establishment of a national home for Jewish communities in Ottoman under Palestine.

31
00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:11,320
And then the cherry on top of the cake is the Treaty of Self in 1920,

32
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:17,560
which is right after World War One, which formally portioned up the Ottoman Empire amongst allies.

33
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:24,450
And the Ottomans themselves were only given a very small region in Anatolia, which would eventually become Turkey.

34
00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:33,070
And fundamentally, what the Ottomans left behind was a bunch of territories that had been neglected for a very long period of time.

35
00:03:33,070 --> 00:03:42,530
They've been stripped of their administrative capacities that had suffered and not been able to.

36
00:03:42,530 --> 00:03:47,450
Progressing the way that, for example, Europe was progressing during the industrial revolution.

37
00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:54,680
And so the region was very, very vulnerable and very open to just being taken by these imperial powers,

38
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,510
essentially making it very, very easy colonial land.

39
00:03:59,510 --> 00:04:05,430
It's very cliche, but the classic term for the Ottoman Empire in time was the sick man of Europe.

40
00:04:05,430 --> 00:04:11,960
So it was kind of bizarre. I don't know if you would agree with this chapter, that sort kind of opportunistic grab.

41
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:19,750
And then a sensible argument is this. You know, it was sort of based on Ottoman territories, but it was, you know,

42
00:04:19,750 --> 00:04:27,380
the main motivation in their divvying up was kind of allocating resources between Britain and France.

43
00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:34,460
There is no consideration for the history or culture of the way the lines were being placed on this map.

44
00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:41,300
I think if you place it into a broader context as well, there was wasn't like the height of the colonial era for Europe,

45
00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:48,020
like they were doing the same they had the same policies in Africa as well, the way they were drawing lines, which barely made any sense.

46
00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:51,560
When you consider the ethnicities of the people who lived or their religions,

47
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,220
many of the problems you see now in the Middle East, like Israel Palestine,

48
00:04:55,220 --> 00:05:01,550
it all comes from this very cardless way of dividing the Middle East into countries

49
00:05:01,550 --> 00:05:05,630
with no consideration for what had happened before or what was going to happen.

50
00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:11,150
But it's simply another region where colonial history has had very severe consequences.

51
00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:15,830
Even today, I would say it's a very much a de facto colonisation.

52
00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:20,450
It's not like the British and French mobilised their troops and invade these regions.

53
00:05:20,450 --> 00:05:25,260
It was by pure virtue of the Ottoman Empire being a crumbling entity.

54
00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:30,320
And they were seeing this as an opportunity for imperialist expansion.

55
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:39,620
It's really important to identify how much the Ottoman Empire had destabilised the Middle East in an administrative and a cultural and a social sense.

56
00:05:39,620 --> 00:05:47,300
And that's what allowed these treaties to go ahead. I think also something which is relevant here, and we'll discuss this more later.

57
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:52,430
But it's about stereotyping of the Middle East because the purpose of the mandates officially

58
00:05:52,430 --> 00:05:57,350
was to develop vagina's institutions so that these people could eventually rule themselves.

59
00:05:57,350 --> 00:06:05,360
But obviously, the Europeans saw it as their responsibility in this time to do that because they felt Arabs were incapable of ruling themselves.

60
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,760
And it's a very ironic situation where they are incapable of ruling themselves because you've never given them the opportunity to do so.

61
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,340
But we'll get back to that.

62
00:06:13,340 --> 00:06:22,970
And the consequences of stereotyping the Middle East later, but it shows there's a long and very clear line from then to even what's happening now.

63
00:06:22,970 --> 00:06:28,230
The Middle East, though, as a term itself, also has a very clear colonial history,

64
00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:33,410
because if you think of it as the Middle East but East relative to what?

65
00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:37,630
And that's Europe, India's first prime minister.

66
00:06:37,630 --> 00:06:46,430
Maybe he observed that it should be called West Asia because where it was situated and I think that is something that.

67
00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:57,190
Is recurring in modern discussions of the names we give to these regions and how we end up upholding a very specific world order.

68
00:06:57,190 --> 00:07:04,270
If people at the time. Not necessarily directly at the time, but quite soon after, we're noticing that that time was an issue.

69
00:07:04,270 --> 00:07:08,260
I think it's quite interesting to see that still in modern news today.

70
00:07:08,260 --> 00:07:12,210
In addition to that, I mean, I have a similar anecdote with that.

71
00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:15,200
Didn't know my Middle East studies programme from China.

72
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:24,810
And using the first time that you heard the phrase Middle East didn't make sense to her because she saying it because the Middle West.

73
00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:31,450
So it's very rooted as very as you know, it's obviously a very it's a very Eurocentric idea for like a specific history of it.

74
00:07:31,450 --> 00:07:39,580
It was the term Middle East was first used in Montesano two, and it's covered all the area between Egypt and Burma,

75
00:07:39,580 --> 00:07:43,840
which meant that India was at that point part of the Middle East as well, which it isn't anymore.

76
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:50,580
And then the Middle East became more official during World War Two, when the British military established the specific Middle East command.

77
00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:58,930
And that's also involved North Africa. So the guy who coined the term Middle East was an American naval strategy strategist.

78
00:07:58,930 --> 00:08:05,520
The region, it became, I think, a greater point or location of interest as tensions between Russia and Britain increased.

79
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,600
It's like speculated that the reason why it was so important was it because it kind of stood in the way of India.

80
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,090
And it kind of protected India.

81
00:08:13,090 --> 00:08:19,810
However, what was interesting to note about the term Middle East, that is that is actually being used by the people within the region as well.

82
00:08:19,810 --> 00:08:22,720
For example, in Arabic, it's a shot of close ups.

83
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:30,750
And in Hebrew, if I recall correctly, it's something very similar, which I find quite interesting just because they have clearly, like,

84
00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:39,800
you know, taken a term and taken their meaning out of it as well, even if it makes no sense considering where they are geographically.

85
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:52,170
But I guess that's that's how history goes. I think it's also quite a common fallacy that the term itself is broadly used in the Middle East.

86
00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:58,500
So we were doing a lesson today. And you're speaking about the language people use in the Middle East.

87
00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:04,110
And actually, there's no collectivist identity of like Middle Eastern.

88
00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:12,180
It's very much understood. So, for example, if you're from North Africa and Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, sometimes Libya.

89
00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:16,650
That's like a lot of a lot of B, which is the Arab West.

90
00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:23,550
And then I think people are very keen to maintain the concept of the sham a sham.

91
00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:27,320
She's eleven. And then you have Al College, which is the Gulf.

92
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:34,800
And I think those are the identities that steak, not the sort of over arching Middle Eastern identity.

93
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,270
I don't think people actually feel. Middle Easterners themselves.

94
00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:42,210
I don't think they actually feel intimate,

95
00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:49,320
personal connexion with the concept of Middle East because the internal factions and divisions are really prominent.

96
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:57,720
And I think that's correct. By using the sermon in the Western media and basically everything we do, you do create this subconscious assumption that,

97
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,450
you know, the Middle East is one place and that everybody is very similar.

98
00:10:01,450 --> 00:10:07,080
There's probably been enough conversations we've all had when we travelled to the region where somebody asked, oh, you're going to the Middle East.

99
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:13,650
Isn't it dangerous with the assumption that, you know, Syria is the same as Jordan is the same as Egypt, you know?

100
00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:14,130
Absolutely.

101
00:10:14,130 --> 00:10:21,600
As in the case that it always gets discussed in in a context together, like it's a Middle Eastern country first before it's its own country.

102
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:28,410
I think it's also really interesting that you mentioned our degrees of Middle Eastern studies.

103
00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:32,250
And I think area studies is something worth discussing. Yeah.

104
00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:35,460
Oh, we can do that. And I hear your guests perspective on this.

105
00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:44,340
But I feel like if you're going in two area studies, you need to be aware of really the origins of your field,

106
00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:50,940
because in its original incarnation, area studies served a very cornu purpose.

107
00:10:50,940 --> 00:10:55,350
It was ethnocentric, essentialist imperialist. Yeah.

108
00:10:55,350 --> 00:11:01,880
Like our faculty. So as the Orient, Oxford, all of them.

109
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:09,110
Yeah. If it's wriggling permeation, they're serving this colonial purpose and its origins are found in this kind of ethno

110
00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:15,510
centrist essentialist view of the region that's going to trickle down into the modern day.

111
00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:19,650
It's very important to be aware of that because as an area scholar,

112
00:11:19,650 --> 00:11:26,620
basically you define how another culture is translated into your society oriented argument

113
00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:31,690
in the 19th century was made for audiences that weren't able to see the Middle East.

114
00:11:31,690 --> 00:11:37,880
I just worry. But then quickly, for listeners who might not know what's Orientalist means specifically.

115
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:43,080
But basically from a book written by Edward Sade's deal and continue explaining it clearly.

116
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:54,660
You go ahead. OK. Ninety seven say to recall correctly, a man called Edward Sayd from Columbia University in the U.S. wrote a book called Orientalism,

117
00:11:54,660 --> 00:12:02,520
where he basically challenges that knowledge basis of what the three of us study like about how we look at the Middle East.

118
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,770
His argument is basically that the Orient is always the opposite of the West.

119
00:12:07,770 --> 00:12:15,230
So if the West is more than the Orient is outdated, if Western Europeans are intelligent and enlightened, you know, the other with a capital.

120
00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:22,080
No, I know what he does is look at our look at texts which are written and how they all

121
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,580
encourage and perpetuate this assumption of a very strong distinction between East and West.

122
00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:33,860
And that's what really refers to when she means or influenced. And I think it's a very pervasive.

123
00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:41,630
Oh, it's a very present approach to criticism and theory, because I think the term orientation can be applied to so much,

124
00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:49,240
such as art, such as political approaches, foreign policy in some capacity.

125
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,650
There's a lot of flexibility with the term Orientalist.

126
00:12:52,650 --> 00:13:05,920
And I think Orientalists ah is probably the most tangible reality of Orientalism and the most easily identified.

127
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:15,940
Yeah, and it's I mean, like areas that he's kind of it's Orientalist perspective is in was disseminated by Western artists for Western audiences,

128
00:13:15,940 --> 00:13:25,300
and it was popular Orientalist art was very popular during a time when travel to the quote unquote, Orient was impossible for most.

129
00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:32,110
So these depictions on with tribal narratives became the basis for people's understanding of the region.

130
00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:40,950
The issue is, is that these paintings were again made for Western audiences that wanted to see new places to which artists responded with

131
00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:49,870
a sort of sensationalist exoticism that then fit into this Western Essentialists view of the Middle East as backward.

132
00:13:49,870 --> 00:14:00,880
The paintings were set in Hem's and Sooks, filled with images of women that are either sexualised or repressed and men who are either lazy or violent.

133
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,550
A classic example of this where you can look up is the snake charmer,

134
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:13,480
which shows a naked snake charmer playing a flute in front of a group of men lazily smoking hookah.

135
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:23,470
And what I think is interesting is that the British Museum had this exhibition last year called Inspired by the East, Heidi.

136
00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:31,180
The Islamic world influenced Western art. And its whole goal was to was to strip away this negative reputation.

137
00:14:31,180 --> 00:14:39,860
And Orientalist art has, rather than Orientalist art, being this negative stereotyping of the region.

138
00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:45,220
They wanted to show that Orientalist art was rooted in intentions to understand

139
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:52,270
other cultures when trouble wasn't really available to the wider population.

140
00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:56,080
But looking at the exhibit, it might have art.

141
00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,810
That lens is slightly more respectful in some respects than, say, a naked snake charmer.

142
00:15:01,810 --> 00:15:03,790
It's it's it's ironic, though,

143
00:15:03,790 --> 00:15:13,280
because there's the exhibit also includes a collection of contemporary Orientalist art made by artists from the Middle East.

144
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:23,080
And so and the idea is to split Oriental's art on its head by painting stereotypical images, but then blending in subversive topics.

145
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:29,830
The curator kind of unintentionally contributes to this notion, these modern essentialist notions of the region,

146
00:15:29,830 --> 00:15:42,580
because all of the subversive content that's been curated is centred around hot topics such as the burqa, female agency and religious violence.

147
00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:52,560
So this 19th century view of the Middle East as being exotic, violent, lazy has been passed down to the modern day.

148
00:15:52,560 --> 00:16:01,120
So because the west western understanding of the region is kind of centred around this religious fanaticism, violence and repression of women.

149
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:08,910
So we did and also say that the target audience for that exposition, you know, probably wasn't Middle Eastern people.

150
00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:13,090
It was very much Western people. Yes. Again, it's kind of a cool circle.

151
00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:19,300
You've gone full circle with the. Yeah.

152
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:23,620
Middle Eastern art made for Western audiences.

153
00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:34,630
I was just going to quickly add on to the discussion of the exhibition is that I remember at the time there was a sort of review,

154
00:16:34,630 --> 00:16:43,780
kind of like a long read, personal long grece addressing by Soumaya person for Lucy Writers platform.

155
00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:48,370
And in it, she was just discussing how throughout that exhibition she didn't feel like it was for her.

156
00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:54,850
She didn't feel like it adequately tore away this fantasy of the Orient of these Orientalist realities.

157
00:16:54,850 --> 00:16:57,880
And I think I remember just being quite moved by what she said.

158
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,400
I hadn't attended the exhibit, but I just found the way she spoke about the exhibit really powerful,

159
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:09,290
because at the end of the day, she, as a Muslim woman, walked in and didn't feel like it was for her.

160
00:17:09,290 --> 00:17:14,170
And the whole point of that is if it was to move away from these really exclusive

161
00:17:14,170 --> 00:17:20,030
Orientalist realities that we see in the British resume every other day.

162
00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:27,670
And I think that just really hammers home your point, really, that this art isn't for people from these communities.

163
00:17:27,670 --> 00:17:36,640
It isn't from people from these regions. It's just for sort of middle class, white art consuming elite.

164
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,900
Being an area scholar, you need to be aware of these origins.

165
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:50,890
You need to be aware of the impact that you can actually have because you are translating, quote unquote, this culture into your own society.

166
00:17:50,890 --> 00:17:55,420
This can have a negative or positive impact. Bernard Lewis is a really good example of this.

167
00:17:55,420 --> 00:18:02,140
For those who don't know, Bernard Lewis was one of the most influential scholars of the Middle East in the United States.

168
00:18:02,140 --> 00:18:12,340
Both the Democratic and Republican parties sought advice on policy issues, and he was going to the go to man for the Bush administration.

169
00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:18,650
What is what he is most famous for is something that he published immediately after 9/11.

170
00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:27,790
It was called What Went Wrong? And it was essentially explaining to American audience or Western audiences why 9/11 happened.

171
00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:32,200
But his his view is very a historical it's very essentialist.

172
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,470
It's honestly it's quite racist.

173
00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:46,950
And I feel comfortable saying not just looking at it can look, comparing something that is comparing a sentence from what went wrong.

174
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:52,630
Can you read an excerpt? OK. So this is this is I think this is a good example.

175
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:58,780
So this is an article this is from what went wrong in 2003, actually,

176
00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:09,340
to say in 2003 when our lowest rate children are likely to grow up either arrogant or submissive and unfit for a free, open society.

177
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:14,920
And that mirrors imperialist origins of area studies, says disseminated down,

178
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:22,300
because you compare that to something written one hundred and twenty years earlier by the French orientalist,

179
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:23,800
Ernest Saarinen,

180
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:32,610
who said that Muhammad and child becomes a fanatic full of a stupid pride in the possession of what he believes to be the absolute truth.

181
00:19:32,610 --> 00:19:38,830
Hoppy, as with the privilege, with what makes his inferiority, that's quite grim.

182
00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:42,000
There's a lot more quote I would love to put on with Bernard Lewis,

183
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:48,550
but I think my point being that Lewis is completely a historical and his understanding of the region.

184
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:58,630
He interprets the grievances that the region has with the West and stemming from a cultural and ideological intolerance to Western values,

185
00:19:58,630 --> 00:20:03,130
because he was this a major adviser to the Bush administration.

186
00:20:03,130 --> 00:20:08,500
He informed the US administration that conducted the Iraq invasion.

187
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:17,140
It was was one of the biggest failures of U.S. foreign policy. I think that's very fair to say.

188
00:20:17,140 --> 00:20:24,280
Related to that. There was also there's this guy who spoke in Oxford in early twenty twenty.

189
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,740
And he is the minister of defence, Middle East adviser. And this is a guy who wrote a book.

190
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:33,070
I'm not going to mention his name, but he wrote a book called Soldier in the Sand.

191
00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:42,670
And on the cover of this book, he has Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, the Shah of Iran and Lawrence of Arabia wars.

192
00:20:42,670 --> 00:20:50,870
And it is like a very clear example of like the stereotyping, which goes on when people discuss the Middle East.

193
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:55,510
That I should also mention on the cover. There's also pictures of tanks, too.

194
00:20:55,510 --> 00:21:02,110
So then and, you know, it's basically playing into the stereotypes people have of the Middle East, that it's, you know,

195
00:21:02,110 --> 00:21:09,310
a guy that says it's a bunch of autocrats and terrorists and it's not you know, there's there's a lot more to the Middle East than that, obviously.

196
00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:14,080
But the problem is that when people like Bernard Lewis are when people like this man, you know,

197
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:22,180
express their opinions in very respected contexts, in very respected forums, they get taken very seriously.

198
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:30,370
And when they are being by reductionist about the perspective of the region, it has very serious consequences.

199
00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:35,200
Yes. And actually, a really important thing about Bernard Lewis and about what went wrong.

200
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:41,530
Quote unquote, is that he threw out that throughout his writing.

201
00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:47,950
There is this kind of rationalisation of the Middle East needs guidance.

202
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:55,870
It needs intervention. It needs to be shaped in the right way and that it rationalises Western intervention in the region.

203
00:21:55,870 --> 00:22:03,430
Yeah, that that's something I wanted to get to anyway with. It goes into politics with the Iraq invasion, with the invasion in Afghanistan.

204
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:05,450
But it also on a much more micro level.

205
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:14,740
It happens with individual people as well, with, for example, the invasion in Afghanistan just said Nixon justified by how the Taliban treated women.

206
00:22:14,740 --> 00:22:22,750
So I often see is that the stereotype is of Middle Eastern will miss is that she is oppressed, that she's helpless in any way.

207
00:22:22,750 --> 00:22:31,730
I think I do find it really patronising the way people become overly involved in the issue of gender rights or women's rights.

208
00:22:31,730 --> 00:22:40,010
LGBTQ community is right in the Middle East. I marry because a lot of the time.

209
00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:44,610
These issues are very, very present in the countries of this individual.

210
00:22:44,610 --> 00:22:51,520
That is no screaming about their disgust at how things are working, how things are operating in the Middle East.

211
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:52,690
They really like a few weeks ago,

212
00:22:52,690 --> 00:23:01,040
I was having a conversation about honour killings in the Middle East and how they were so common and they were happening so often.

213
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,880
And that's not to say honour killings don't occur.

214
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:12,200
But the suggestion was it was a very much it was very much an unchallenged aspect of Middle Eastern culture.

215
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:19,950
And also, there was a massive unwillingness to actually specify which countries in which countries these honour killings were occurring.

216
00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:28,430
But I think primarily it was cases of honour killings in the past year in Jordan and how the Jordanian communities themselves had gone out protested.

217
00:23:28,430 --> 00:23:33,290
And this person was so shocked. This just wasn't a thing for them. They didn't realise that, you know, the Middle East.

218
00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:37,730
There were people who didn't agree with these practises who wanted them abolished.

219
00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:42,830
I just think it is very patronising the way people do speak about women's rights

220
00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:50,150
and the LGBTQ community is right in the Middle East without first comprehending

221
00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:54,980
that actually their environments on as progressive as they think they are and

222
00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:58,630
actually they're just not as informed about these regions as they think they are.

223
00:23:58,630 --> 00:24:04,400
And I think people are very willing to pass commentary because as a region,

224
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,660
the Middle East does seem to be stripped of its autonomy and people very

225
00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:14,300
unwilling to comprehend it as a very diverse and multiplicities multitudinous,

226
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:24,230
whatever word you want to use area that houses an infinitely, ethnically, religiously, racially diverse community of people.

227
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:30,350
And I think there's always this assumption of very strict cultural headingley that exists in the Middle East.

228
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:33,950
And there's no diversity of opinion like we have over here in the West.

229
00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:39,490
And that is something I find that pops up again and again and again in discussion.

230
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:49,190
And it's just so patronising because I have opinions. Do you think something similar applies to the hijab where it's seen as enduringly negative?

231
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:56,060
While my friends, when I lived in Egypt, a number of them would hejab and we're very proud of wearing it.

232
00:24:56,060 --> 00:25:05,290
But because of how it's been characterised both by the right wing in the West but also even by the left wing as this symbol of oppression,

233
00:25:05,290 --> 00:25:11,570
it removes all the nuance from the discussion, although in the saying that some people see it as an expression of their individuality, for example.

234
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:16,580
And I think it totally erases the reality of a very cultural acceptance of hijab.

235
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:22,250
Not to say I don't think the hijab is up for debate in terms of, you know, in home France,

236
00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:28,520
they've banned the hijab in places of work and how they just make life really hard for women who wear the hijab.

237
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,460
I think at the end of the day, when Muslim women have a very personal relationship with the hijab and for each was a woman, it is different.

238
00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:38,930
For some it is purely religious. For some, it can be aesthetic. For some it is cultural.

239
00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:45,810
I've worn it sort of on and off when I was younger and I just remember the one.

240
00:25:45,810 --> 00:25:50,830
Like honour and question I always got was, did your parents force you to wear it?

241
00:25:50,830 --> 00:25:56,430
And this is a very basic. I can guarantee every hedge I'd be, you know, has had this exact question.

242
00:25:56,430 --> 00:26:03,240
And it just goes to show how patronising the comprehension of my personal and bodily autonomy is,

243
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:09,300
but also their entitlement to the inner mechanics of my religious identity.

244
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:13,610
And I think for me, I find very, very audacious.

245
00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:18,410
You can go around interrogating other people's religious realities.

246
00:26:18,410 --> 00:26:23,700
So then what makes you feel so comfortable interrogating like a 14 year old girls?

247
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:27,480
I think that's great people for some reason that the stereotypes people have

248
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,130
of Middle Easterners often seems like it should allow them to ask questions,

249
00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:38,290
which, if you ask the other way, would be entirely unacceptable, wholly inappropriate.

250
00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:48,650
And there's just as there's this assumption that Muslim women need saving, that they don't have any sort of agency or decision in their own lives.

251
00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:52,940
That's something if people have listened to the third episode of the podcast.

252
00:26:52,940 --> 00:26:54,230
Thank you. But if they haven't.

253
00:26:54,230 --> 00:27:01,280
It's also mentioned by all three of the woman, which Fredricka spoke to in this episode, that what they want is to be supported.

254
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,700
But what they don't want is to be seen as oppressed because then they have to fight to narratives.

255
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:17,060
That just perpetuates the whole problematic structure we have of of of, you know, the white saviour complex, which hasn't gone far enough.

256
00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:23,240
And I think it is so common and so invasive way Muslim women are portrayed.

257
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,470
I don't know if you've heard of the. But do Muslim women need saving by Leila?

258
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:32,630
Alone is a very popular piece of political writing,

259
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:44,480
but not just very much addressing a Real-Life consequences of portraying Muslim women as these helpless damsels in distress, essentially.

260
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,880
I think it's just such a dehumanising approach to Muslim women as a community and also

261
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,580
so disrespectful because why aren't we allowed the duality of other communities?

262
00:27:55,580 --> 00:28:03,080
Why can't we have both the struggles with personal autonomy and religion and identity,

263
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,640
creativity, just the personal struggles that are afforded to so many other communities?

264
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:18,280
It just feels that the portrayal of Muslim women, especially even in the case of Orientalists art, is so two dimensional, is so reductive.

265
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:25,670
And I think it is something that is interrogated a lot amongst Muslim women, but nothing's actually changed.

266
00:28:25,670 --> 00:28:35,510
I would say the same discourse that exists about 10 years ago about the hijab is still very prominent now, which is very, very disappointing.

267
00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:41,300
I wouldn't say the material reality of Muslim women has improved.

268
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:50,870
Would either of you then also agree with the statement that things only become popular in the West if they fit our stereotypes of the Middle East?

269
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:56,840
Because one of you mentioned Homeland, for example, early on, this is very famous scene, which, you know,

270
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:03,680
raised some eyebrows in the Middle East where they are riding in an armoured car through Comisar in Beirut,

271
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,490
which for anyone who's been there, is probably one of the richest areas in the city.

272
00:29:07,490 --> 00:29:09,950
It's very it's absolutely beautiful.

273
00:29:09,950 --> 00:29:17,540
But if people don't see the Middle East in a way where it is dusty, where there's rubble, where it seems unstable for them,

274
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:22,670
it doesn't fit with the Middle East and for example, in me that they might be less willing to consume it.

275
00:29:22,670 --> 00:29:28,470
Do you think that is still very much the case also beyond movies, for example?

276
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:37,260
When I went to the Middle East, I was like, why is that yellow? I got off, got off that and was like, I was expecting this to be yellow.

277
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:42,150
Why is it not yellow? Why is the sky not yellow? That's all homeland's fault.

278
00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:46,230
I've never watched it, but it's her lens.

279
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:55,290
I have to say, you know, I was studying I was studying at the American University of Beirut and I was all prepped.

280
00:29:55,290 --> 00:30:00,660
I was very embarrassed when I got there because because of what I had packed for clothing,

281
00:30:00,660 --> 00:30:09,630
I was before I was dressed like a Sunday school teacher, I had a skirt that went to my ankle.

282
00:30:09,630 --> 00:30:14,790
And these like very loose love, ugly button up shirts.

283
00:30:14,790 --> 00:30:21,120
And then I go there and everyone looks like it's just like like a model.

284
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:28,230
Everyone looks like a model. Everyone. The slogans I can tell everyone spent like two hours getting ready.

285
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:36,810
I feel like I'm in like a Milan fashion show and I just look like a frumpy kindergarten teacher because.

286
00:30:36,810 --> 00:30:42,780
Yeah. I guess because of my assumptions about the Middle East, you know, back when I had been studying the Gulf War,

287
00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:47,420
I'd been studying the region for, you know, five years, four years.

288
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:58,420
You'd think I know better. But I think I'm sorry for for fear of this becoming like panic, though I can see it's full of panic.

289
00:30:58,420 --> 00:31:04,980
Does I think I have one which says so many. There's one which I think is very typifying for speaking about.

290
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:08,340
Because when I flew to Egypt in January twenty nineteen and I said,

291
00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:13,950
next an American and as Americans, do they always start chatting with you on the plane?

292
00:31:13,950 --> 00:31:17,790
And he because I'd been there before. Yeah, he had a lot of questions.

293
00:31:17,790 --> 00:31:23,130
He was like always it safe. I was like karez that probably the safest place I've been in my life.

294
00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:29,340
And he wondered, though, is not it gonna be a problem if I'm an American? So, like, first of all, how would they know you're an American?

295
00:31:29,340 --> 00:31:30,700
And second of all, no.

296
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:36,630
Like, you know, they are very good as having the nuance to understand the difference between the government and the people in the country.

297
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:42,900
And it's just it was just so clear that some people are afraid of going to the Middle East because of the stereotypes,

298
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:47,550
but because they never go that they also these stereotypes also don't get challenged.

299
00:31:47,550 --> 00:31:52,830
It's interesting, actually, because there was also a thing with, like Orientalists scholarship.

300
00:31:52,830 --> 00:32:00,930
You had these people writing these books about the region and they literally have never been there writing.

301
00:32:00,930 --> 00:32:06,580
And like, it's kind of like a photocopy photocopier making.

302
00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:14,580
It's like a, you know, a copy and a copy of a copy of these people that haven't been to the region informing us about the region.

303
00:32:14,580 --> 00:32:19,090
It reminds me of what certain Middle Eastern countries do very effectively.

304
00:32:19,090 --> 00:32:24,930
There's examples of Jews to follow Toby, the Emirati ambassador to the US,

305
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:30,450
who would often argue with American policymakers that they didn't understand the Middle East and

306
00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:34,890
they didn't understand the nuances of what was happening during the Arab uprisings in 2011,

307
00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:44,940
2012. And because of that, he would use his or their assumption of his knowledge to create a narrative which benefited DeLay,

308
00:32:44,940 --> 00:32:51,960
which was very much a counter-revolutionary narrative and led to a lot of American support for the Sisi government,

309
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,560
despite many of the human rights infringements.

310
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:01,890
I think it's really interesting how we're discussing individuals who have never been to the Middle East

311
00:33:01,890 --> 00:33:08,520
or North Africa or the Orient and don't understand the intricacies and the realities of this region,

312
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:15,090
but also very comfortable in producing policy, because this was really, I think really you were saying Saudi.

313
00:33:15,090 --> 00:33:22,710
This is really common in the initial colonial period where artists would paint Middle

314
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:31,830
Eastern or North African Hiram's that had never visited North Africa nor seen the Haram.

315
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:42,850
There was also a painter who was in the employ of Napoleon who had never travelled to the Middle East, but painted multiple paintings of Yaffa.

316
00:33:42,850 --> 00:33:51,000
And I think Tomago model city. So I think it's really interesting that there's a very longstanding tradition

317
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,580
of feeling very comfortable to produce like a piece of art or in this case,

318
00:33:54,580 --> 00:33:59,840
a piece of policy on a region that you don't understand or have never witnessed in person.

319
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,200
But then I guess raises the question, what do we have then, a responsibility?

320
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:12,800
I wouldn't call us experts just yet, but as people with a slightly more knowledge of the region to call it out when we see things like this.

321
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:20,690
Yes, obviously. Definitely. I think. We're fortunate enough to be studying this very intimately.

322
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:29,800
University, but I think also there has been a very long standing tradition of like left leaning liberals,

323
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:36,890
like left wingers just over emphasising their role in the salvation of a region.

324
00:34:36,890 --> 00:34:41,200
So I would say is essentially the white saviour complex. Like Western saviour complex.

325
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:51,060
In my case. But in a more theoretical manner, I think obviously we have to cool out all of these ridiculous stereotypes that we hear.

326
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:55,610
But at the same time, the salvation of the Middle East is not it's not invested in us.

327
00:34:55,610 --> 00:34:58,940
I am not personally going to single handedly save the Middle East.

328
00:34:58,940 --> 00:35:03,540
And I very much understand that Rome very happy with that. But there's a lot of responsibility. I don't want it.

329
00:35:03,540 --> 00:35:09,380
But, yeah, I just think it is very important to strike a balance between, you know, standing up for what you know is right.

330
00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:16,160
Correcting these stereotypes. Both are ensuring that the voices of people from Middle East and communities, North African communities,

331
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:25,030
are given the freedom to discuss the intricacies of their realities in a way that doesn't immediately lead to some sort of aggressive backlash.

332
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:31,970
And I think that's what I know people struggle with, is you may want to, for example, discuss the struggles that you have within your community,

333
00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:39,860
but it's so hard to find a way to discuss it without propagating a really racist, Islamophobic stereotype.

334
00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:48,850
We just have so much to say about regions that obviously Westerners have messed up quite royally, but it's not like we're doing any better.

335
00:35:48,850 --> 00:35:56,780
And I think there might be a case of having to get our own house in order, because when you look at countries like America,

336
00:35:56,780 --> 00:36:09,860
which has had very Guantanamo Bay debacle, or the Abu Ghraib prison torture scandal in Iraq, it reduces the moral standing completely.

337
00:36:09,860 --> 00:36:17,890
And it just gives everybody this very strong sense of hypocrisy when one country's moralising about human rights and development and progress,

338
00:36:17,890 --> 00:36:25,730
while at the same time striking people in Afghanistan, torturing people in Iraq and are doing extraordinary renditions to Cuba.

339
00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:32,420
It makes very little sense when printed like that is telling someone else how to behave.

340
00:36:32,420 --> 00:36:36,190
Did you guys get a chance to watch Once Upon a Time in Iraq?

341
00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:43,880
So it's essentially five part series interrogate, open interviewing so people on both sides of the Iraq war.

342
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,350
So there's like Iraqis who are processed, dumb Iraqis who are anti Saddam.

343
00:36:48,350 --> 00:36:53,830
They also interview American soldiers and the families of American soldiers and American generals.

344
00:36:53,830 --> 00:36:58,850
The thing that really, really stood out to me was that they kind of just blindly went in.

345
00:36:58,850 --> 00:37:07,310
I always thought Iraq wasn't very malicious and very intentional and very well for out in terms of like destroying Iraq.

346
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:15,610
Then I watched this documentary. And I was just so shocked at how little these like generals knew about the region.

347
00:37:15,610 --> 00:37:19,640
That's, I think, kind of going back to what you originally asked.

348
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:30,740
I think that the Iraq invasion is a great example of why there needs to be a correction of what we know of the Middle East,

349
00:37:30,740 --> 00:37:37,490
because the Iraq invasion, or rather the Iraq reconstruction was just really mishandled.

350
00:37:37,490 --> 00:37:42,350
You have these people that have no clue of how it works.

351
00:37:42,350 --> 00:37:48,020
Yeah. You ban anyone that was a member of the Baath Party from being an administration,

352
00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:54,740
not realising that you had to be a member of the Baath Party to be in government.

353
00:37:54,740 --> 00:38:04,010
And so then you have people that have no you have the only option is that there are people in government that have no experience in government.

354
00:38:04,010 --> 00:38:09,690
And you and your viewers, I think, spent 60 billion.

355
00:38:09,690 --> 00:38:20,120
Trying to rebuild Iraq. 15 million dollars a day. And her what I did read the biography of one of the generals in Iraq across the summer,

356
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,570
so I have a bit more sympathy with them than I ever thought I would have.

357
00:38:23,570 --> 00:38:30,260
But it's basically what I just said, that we often see it as something malicious, but it was woefully underprepared.

358
00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:34,340
And even the generals are saying, we don't want to do this. We don't think it's going to be successful.

359
00:38:34,340 --> 00:38:40,040
And that is almost more scary than if it was malicious because it was malicious, at least purpose behind it.

360
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,330
This just seems so disorganised. Yeah, like hair brained.

361
00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:47,570
And they still went for it. And that's, I think,

362
00:38:47,570 --> 00:38:57,460
implicitly shows how little faith they have in the Middle East is that even a very poorly thought out plan would still be better than the status quo.

363
00:38:57,460 --> 00:38:59,440
There's a centralising of the region.

364
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:07,150
Those, you know, painting it with a wide brush, thinking that you understand the entire, you know, the culture and the history.

365
00:39:07,150 --> 00:39:11,300
Well, I wouldn't say we're using we understand in such a liberal way,

366
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:17,810
because the reality is what ends up happening when people do areas studies is weak.

367
00:39:17,810 --> 00:39:22,100
We're definitely giving, I wouldn't say, a superficial comprehension of the region,

368
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:29,420
but a comprehension of the region that very much fits the narrative that we're seeking to develop about the Middle East.

369
00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:36,710
And I think I find it really interesting that this entire episode is about moving away from language about the Middle East.

370
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:41,420
And I'm falling right into that trap again and again. But I think the reality is what does it?

371
00:39:41,420 --> 00:39:50,600
It's a very different thing to understand the Middle East from an outsider's point of view and to spend time learning or absorbing the history.

372
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:59,030
But it's, again, so different to if you grew up there. And I think it's just very much knowing where your involvement in the region stops.

373
00:39:59,030 --> 00:40:03,780
And I think for us, it's a lot earlier than sometimes we're willing to identify.

374
00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:10,520
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I think, you know, I don't think it's possible to move away from a language completely because of, you know, how language works.

375
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,290
But I do think the most important thing is to have an awareness of it.

376
00:40:15,290 --> 00:40:24,890
It's not that you need specialised knowledge to study the Middle East, but you have to go through a process of unlearning what you were taught.

377
00:40:24,890 --> 00:40:29,360
And that includes popular culture and academia.

378
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:35,960
This is true for area scholars as well as the general population.

379
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,910
I definitely do agree. I think there is a lot of unlearning required because you don't realise how much

380
00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:46,160
internalised Islamophobia internalised or orientalism internalised racism.

381
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:51,050
You are holding in your analysis of this region until you.

382
00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:56,420
You're appropriately interrogated and your ideas are properly challenged.

383
00:40:56,420 --> 00:41:04,310
And I think it is so easy when the status quo very comfortably reinforces these Orientalist realities to carry on

384
00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:11,180
with these ideas and into positions of power very easily without realising that actually they are very harmful,

385
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:14,060
very detrimental. Related to that as well.

386
00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:21,710
People shouldn't be afraid of admitting that they sometimes don't know things like they get asked a question about something intricate and important,

387
00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:26,710
especially considering how nuanced area studies in general is.

388
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:31,490
No, it should be entirely acceptable for even someone who is considered an expert to say,

389
00:41:31,490 --> 00:41:38,360
I cannot answer that question because by answering the question are wrong, they might do more damage than by not answering at all.

390
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,310
And I think it's very important to understand that there is no solution to the issues in the Middle East.

391
00:41:43,310 --> 00:41:49,700
There is no. No one's going to sit down and turn around. Yes, I know exactly what we should do.

392
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:57,090
And there's no harm in admitting that because it is a complex region, complex community that has complex issues.

393
00:41:57,090 --> 00:42:02,310
Do you then think, like the whole idea of an American peace plan, for example, like the Trump peace plan?

394
00:42:02,310 --> 00:42:11,250
That, yeah, it's a terrible plan anyway, producing I mean, boys, on a more conceptual level, that the idea of a peace fund is.

395
00:42:11,250 --> 00:42:20,850
Silly, I think it's ridiculous because I think there are so many factors that require a very serious and I would say intervention,

396
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:24,030
but require very serious addressing.

397
00:42:24,030 --> 00:42:33,960
But crucially, the people who harbour these opinions, these Orientalist and dehumanising opinions, are the ones making policy.

398
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:44,190
So we have so much influence over the situations in the Middle East as a region who never know the reality.

399
00:42:44,190 --> 00:42:47,850
Thank you for listening to this episode of this podcast.

400
00:42:47,850 --> 00:42:59,460
Join us next week to discuss the history of the culture and the questions raised by Bunchy Pozzi, Dancing Boys of Afghanistan.

401
00:42:59,460 --> 00:43:03,640
Almanack is a student for the initiative sent in the university.

402
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:10,330
The opinions expressed in the podcast are not in any way represent the official opinions of the University of the Middle East.

403
00:43:10,330 --> 00:43:15,790
It is editors of those. So you'll just focus with Lily.

404
00:43:15,790 --> 00:43:20,940
Felix Walker. Michael Memory. Max Randall.

405
00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:28,294
Frederica Brookover, man. Farrah Rhodes Johnson.