1 00:00:03,150 --> 00:00:08,670 What I would like to welcome you all to our seminar today. 2 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:14,700 I think while we are waiting, too, for everybody who would like to join us to do so. 3 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:22,080 I will say a few words about our seminars on women's rights in the Middle East, which started in 2009. 4 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:35,400 For those of you who don't know these seminars and their idea was to actually find out more about what recent research is going on, 5 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,600 contemporary research in relation to women's rights in the Middle East, 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:47,460 as opposed to just repeating what we already know about women's rights in the least, because a lot of things have changed. 7 00:00:47,460 --> 00:00:56,400 And as part of that, we also have included an immediate easterns in the diaspora or from the Muslim warning, widely. 8 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:05,250 On the other aspect, which we have also covered is a question of looking also at some historical context as well as contemporary. 9 00:01:05,250 --> 00:01:09,320 Want to give it actually proper framework to what? 10 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:16,380 In the past has me some women who had probably been activists in the field of Muslim women's rights. 11 00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:22,590 And so we are now assisting those and now we're in the 11th year of doing so. 12 00:01:22,590 --> 00:01:28,150 And it is a particularly great pleasure for me to introduce our speaker today. 13 00:01:28,150 --> 00:01:40,590 Benjamin de Gaulle was called currently a PHC candidate in sociology at the School of Advanced Studies in Social Sciences in Paris. 14 00:01:40,590 --> 00:01:47,920 He's also a member of the Centre, Her Studies in Social Sciences and religion at the San Andreas, which is the summit last year. 15 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Now there are no chefs scientific, so therefore studies in social sciences of religion, 16 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:02,740 modern courses and he's cutting it currently a member of Missal from says in Oxford, 17 00:02:02,740 --> 00:02:08,770 Benjamin, who is also a member of the Jewish Muslim Research Network. 18 00:02:08,770 --> 00:02:16,170 Benjamin's research is mainly situated in the Cintas, the intersection of social sciences. 19 00:02:16,170 --> 00:02:19,480 Of religion, gender studies and queer studies. 20 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:31,270 And it is looking at their initiatives designed by Muslim communities themselves to promote gender equality within an Islamic framework. 21 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:36,500 And he is also. 22 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:48,740 I've got a particular interest in democracy and secularism and the way politics, the impact on lived experiences of Muslim minorities on the ground. 23 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:53,110 And here's studies it is of particular stand. 24 00:02:53,110 --> 00:03:04,880 His presentation today is of particular interest to me, especially because this is an issue which has actually been very addressed, very little. 25 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,070 I don't know of very many similar studies of how you're looking at the context of 26 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:18,050 the mosque and a queer studies and and a comparison between France and the UK. 27 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:23,750 So the title of Benjamin's presentation is God Does Not Discriminate. 28 00:03:23,750 --> 00:03:29,350 Inclusive Mosques, Politics in France and the United Kingdom. 29 00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:33,260 Benjamin, please go ahead. You have got 45 minutes. All right. 30 00:03:33,260 --> 00:03:39,080 Thank you very much, sir. Thanks for allowing me to be part of this. 31 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:45,530 And today I would just share my four point. 32 00:03:45,530 --> 00:03:50,010 So, no, you should see my slides. I'll try to. 33 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:54,920 Yes. OK, perfect. So, yes. 34 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:05,660 Thank you, everybody, for free, attending's is seminar. Studies of I'm presenting today as part of my ongoing research on practises of inclusion 35 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:12,530 and care by and for queer Muslims groups in both France and the United Kingdom, 36 00:04:12,530 --> 00:04:16,880 which is a study that started in 2000 and 18. 37 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:24,590 It relies on the Rafie data collected during moments of participant observation during social and religious events, 38 00:04:24,590 --> 00:04:29,120 events organising inclusive musk and queer Muslim organisations. 39 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:38,340 And there is also a similar structure. Interviews with religious leaders and organisation members. 40 00:04:38,340 --> 00:04:50,450 I am especially interested in feminist ethics of care as Furies by Joan Tronto and every night CMO Glenn BAEO Beyond the Secret, Our Approach to Care. 41 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:57,570 I researched health care can be performed in a religious framework in contemporary Muslim communities 42 00:04:57,570 --> 00:05:06,160 in line with what the South African that's called Arjun classing as theorised as pastoral care. 43 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:14,610 And as Janet Juley argued, in light of the Islamic ethics of justice, they are political. 44 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:17,400 Solidarity's to be built between secular, 45 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:26,250 feminist and Muslim communities to emphasise the role of care as necessary to assist Annable and flourishing society. 46 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:37,680 So this is this would be my theoretical framework. Today, I want to focus on two inclusive mosques, one in France and one in the United Kingdom. 47 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,010 And how is the approach care by inclusive mosque? 48 00:05:41,010 --> 00:05:51,430 I mean a mosque welcoming believers in Mink's congregations regardless of their gender, sexuality, ethnicity or even social status. 49 00:05:51,430 --> 00:05:58,440 These spaces especially care for Muslim marginalised within the larger Muslim community. 50 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:04,140 There are a few more inclusive spaces in each country, in France and the United Kingdom. 51 00:06:04,140 --> 00:06:10,560 But these are the two most popular spaces so far as these last few years. 52 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:22,320 Xao Bufferin by women and interesting Lizzies women, all aimed at responding to the needs expressed by the religious community. 53 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,110 So similarly to Turkish women is a women in most movements. 54 00:06:27,110 --> 00:06:34,590 Not talked about during the last seminar sees women weakness and explains themselves inequalities 55 00:06:34,590 --> 00:06:41,790 of access to religious spaces as they finds a woman's room of their mosque often dirty, 56 00:06:41,790 --> 00:06:50,430 difficult to access the experience or know women who experience difficulty to engage in religious rituals and 57 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:58,860 to connect with the divine because of a lack of appropriate facilities and because a women's room are often. 58 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:03,120 That's the end of a set of stairs. Elderly women in dieser. 59 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,050 Both women have difficulties to access these spaces, especially. 60 00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:16,590 So it's because of OSes difficulties that these spaces have been created in a first in the first place. 61 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:22,260 So this is a really important dimension of this mosque as they emerge from a sense of 62 00:07:22,260 --> 00:07:28,260 responsibility shared by Muslim women to accommodate and care for marginalised Muslims, 63 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:37,740 for women, but also for other groups. And in that sense, these women have the same rationale as more conservative Muslim woman. 64 00:07:37,740 --> 00:07:43,620 I am thinking of ethnographic studies conducted by John Julie in France and Germany, 65 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:52,800 or Sonja Contracter in the United Kingdom on Orthodox Muslim woman groups who were sceptical of feminism 66 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,170 and focussed preferred to focus on their role on the roles they could play for their community, 67 00:07:58,170 --> 00:08:01,980 on their duties rather than their individual rights. 68 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:16,110 And in each case, for both feminist groups and more orthodox group of women, it's a sense of responsibility which always triggers that action. 69 00:08:16,110 --> 00:08:22,200 So we're good to look at the pastoral care developed for queer Muslim woman especially. 70 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,620 Yes. I'm so sorry to interrupt you. 71 00:08:25,620 --> 00:08:33,480 I meant to ask people like, please ask your questions as we go along so we can then address them after it's finished. 72 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,620 Sorry. Eventually. I have not mentioned. Please go ahead. Every. 73 00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:41,310 So I guess I as I was saying, we're going to look at the festival. 74 00:08:41,310 --> 00:08:50,010 Can't develop, especially for Kermesse, mostly just to be specific, as a lot of people may know here. 75 00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:53,860 The word Craig is to be an insult against quicker people. 76 00:08:53,860 --> 00:09:02,970 Press of death, sexually deviant in English, which has since been reappropriated by sexual minorities. 77 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:08,910 Globally, it is mainly used in English speaking context. 78 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:16,320 So in France, women would tend to use other words to define themselves, such as lesbian or transgender. 79 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:23,400 But in the UK is a word queer is quite popular amongst Muslim woman, 80 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:29,940 and I think especially because he does not refer to a particular gender or sexuality. 81 00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:37,070 It enables women to define themselves outside of it or normative framework while remaining. 82 00:09:37,070 --> 00:09:42,080 Specific about Sarah Birdie's, about their gender. About their sexuality. 83 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:49,830 And that's such I think it's resonates with an aesthetic value of modesty. 84 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:57,160 In this presentation, I will remain unspecific on purpose when it comes to the name of the participants. 85 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,350 That's the name of the organisations involved. Enza geographical location. 86 00:10:02,350 --> 00:10:09,070 So as to protect the participants privacy. These two mosque are both inclusive. 87 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:14,950 But Zavitz slightly different setups. I'm going to develop that idea later on. 88 00:10:14,950 --> 00:10:19,840 But first, I just want to give you a bit of background on the East story about this mosque. 89 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:29,320 So is he in the inclusive mosque in France, emerge from a small community locally, which has progressively been building up on social media? 90 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,910 For a Facebook page, 91 00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:43,480 the two founders are to enter a sexual woman who used to go to another inclusive mosque which had been funded by a gay imam in Paris in 2010. 92 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:50,170 This first mosque has since been clubs and these women's and opened their own inclusive mosque. 93 00:10:50,170 --> 00:10:55,120 In September 2010 19. So why comparing this to a mosque? 94 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,940 We need to keep in mind that it's a French mosque is actually a young mosque. 95 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:07,560 It's a very recent projects in the United Kingdom that women and more time to adapt their practises and to, 96 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:11,170 you know, get feedback from that congregation. 97 00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:22,180 So it's in a mosque in London has been founded in 2012 by a group of crem Muslim women who were previously involved in the LGBT Muslim 98 00:11:22,180 --> 00:11:32,740 organisation and which were also involved in academic research projects regarding the needs of queer Muslim women in the United Kingdom. 99 00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:42,220 Findings that most resources online and in real life, where mainly aimed at men, at queer Muslim men, anxiety. 100 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:46,270 There was a need for more inclusive space for vulnerable Muslim woman. 101 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:51,220 They created a mosque based on the principle of radical in Christianity. 102 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:58,000 So a common pungency story of this mosque so far is that as a personal experience of career, 103 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,340 Muslims are always at the root of these initiatives because even in this case of France, 104 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:14,230 the experience of a gay imam informed and inspire a project out of the current mosque. 105 00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:20,680 So the question I'm trying to answer today is, oh, is pastoral care being developed for Crume? 106 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:29,830 Whistling Woman in interest if mosque. And we're going to go through free different bonds is the first one is we're going to look at of different 107 00:12:29,830 --> 00:12:38,100 understandings that this mosque of inclusive to which is very much informed by different political imagineering, 108 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:46,520 is an influenza kind of pastoral care which is being provided INSS spaces. 109 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:47,990 In a second part, 110 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:58,270 we're going to look more closely at the care practises within the mosque and they participate in constructing the subjectivity of queer Muslim woman. 111 00:12:58,270 --> 00:13:04,370 And in the last hour, when I look at the obstacles says these women are facing a while, 112 00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:12,060 creating and developing their mosque and very quickly their own vision for the future. 113 00:13:12,060 --> 00:13:22,170 So is the United Kingdom. Is it intrusive? Musk embraces an Islamic feminism, which is heavily influenced by the work of I mean, why do it? 114 00:13:22,170 --> 00:13:26,910 And defines inclusive as radical, inclusive. 115 00:13:26,910 --> 00:13:30,270 I will not talk about surviving this sort of Islamic feminism, 116 00:13:30,270 --> 00:13:37,020 which are being developed globally because it's not really is a goal of this presentation and to take too long. 117 00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:49,440 What I am interested in in this presentation is, oh, a particular kind of Islamic feminism, which will be a feminist Islamic feminism, sorry, 118 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,150 promoted by any white dude and sisters in Islam, 119 00:13:53,150 --> 00:14:01,470 manifests itself and is being implemented in a grassroots organisation in a local mosque in the United Kingdom. 120 00:14:01,470 --> 00:14:09,090 So there has been an epistemological shift in the work of I mean, what do these last 20 years? 121 00:14:09,090 --> 00:14:14,340 She previously understood women as part of the binary between men and women. 122 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:26,890 And we've an eight or normative framework where men and women at Complimentarity Complementary Qualities and Fraud's to the year 2000. 123 00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:35,490 What would progressively started considering gender as more frid and gender as a category of analysis conceptually allowed her 124 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:45,180 to move away from complementarity of the sexes and compulsory heterosexuality to give room to what she calls sexual diversity. 125 00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:52,990 It is visible in the literature she produces, but also in our discourse and in addition to its faults. 126 00:14:52,990 --> 00:15:03,060 There is also the influence of the colonial studies, which are very present in the discourse of the mosque members. 127 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:14,280 The woman running the mosque characterised by a strong cultural and educational capital so highly educated PDG level most of the time and often 128 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:25,170 identify compulsory atter of sexuality as the produce of modern bio politics systematically imposed on Muslim society from colonisation. 129 00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:34,050 So therefore, critics of colonisation and later on the majority often go hand-in-hand in the discourse of this mosque. 130 00:15:34,050 --> 00:15:40,000 We can better understand the epistemological shift in the work of war, 131 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:47,050 do it by looking at a speech she gave ING's Inclusive Moleskins the UK in September 2017. 132 00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:56,310 And this is how she introduced her speech. I quote, because I am personally located in this as a cis gender female, 133 00:15:56,310 --> 00:16:05,970 I have not voted myself for every single word about whether or not I am equally intrusive in terms of the location from the LGBTQ community. 134 00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:07,530 And that is also Konsta. 135 00:16:07,530 --> 00:16:17,190 Contextually significant, I think, because working for what we used to call gender reform was primarily within the context of heteronormativity. 136 00:16:17,190 --> 00:16:24,030 I think it's important for me to let you know that I might slip into a certain presumption of veteran immaturity, 137 00:16:24,030 --> 00:16:31,820 because that is a way in which the gender movement was shaped, but it is not where it is finished. 138 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:42,920 So this can explain the rationale of the mosque of radical in meeting the responsibility to care for the community is extended to sexual minorities. 139 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:49,580 Amongst are ostracised groups was identities and specific position that ities are taken into account. 140 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:57,170 And you can see in this text on the right, which promotes an event of the mosque, I quote, All are welcome. 141 00:16:57,170 --> 00:17:02,300 And we sometimes the voices of Muslims who are women, non binary, gender, queer, 142 00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:22,500 black and disabled especially so populations which are on the margins and of who have difficulties to access religious spaces in the UK especially. 143 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:26,890 So re-educating creativity extends beyond gender and sexuality. 144 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:32,550 Passive participant can share experience of being a marginalised minority, Weaving's and Muslim community. 145 00:17:32,550 --> 00:17:39,780 However, this shared experience does not mean there is no existing prejudices between the individuals in this mosque. 146 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:45,300 If we consider the experience of being who is on the left here, 147 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:56,940 being an actor or sexual sej under a man who has been occasionally meetings Prager's and giving sermons on Fridays in these settings, as I quote. 148 00:17:56,940 --> 00:18:05,970 So I wasn't necessarily etsi increasing most because of his gender politics at the beginning, such as seemed like a nice addition for me. 149 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:16,390 What was more important was its non-sectarian nature. And that's because even though I grew up in a Middle Eastern country, I'm not from there. 150 00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:22,320 And in fact, I belong to a religious minority which falls under one of the Shia schools of Islam. 151 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:29,250 And so in the Middle Eastern country, and this is something that I contraries speak to openly about Zehr, 152 00:18:29,250 --> 00:18:37,320 is that my community is not allowed to practise freely because there are restrictions on Shia Muslims practising in the country. 153 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:45,270 And so because of that, like I always that is a cute sort of sense that there was this part of me that I wasn't sharing. 154 00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:53,060 So even though I would lead prayer in university, for example, most of my friends didn't know that I was Shia. 155 00:18:53,060 --> 00:19:01,200 And so that's not in fact. I also like so a lot of anti Shia sentiment being openly shared. 156 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,460 And so because of that, I couldn't, in a sense, come out as Shia easer. 157 00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:17,980 So I think a similar vocabulary of aiding and not coming out is interesting in itself as it's triggered bee research for an inquisitive space. 158 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:24,060 When you move to the U.K., so you lived in the U.K. for four years. 159 00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:31,390 And it's especially interesting to compare this to what ve a queer Muslim woman with a Sandy background 160 00:19:31,390 --> 00:19:38,170 had to say about the presence of Shia Muslim in light of her own experience as part of a sexual minority. 161 00:19:38,170 --> 00:19:47,080 And I quote, There are some forms that I have recently found out of Shiite ism, which for me is slightly concerning, 162 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:53,590 but I'm not trying to put too much focus on it, because if I do that, then I feel like of personal words, 163 00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:59,930 if I'm trained to do it myself, is going down with the roots that I'm familiar with in terms of the judgement, 164 00:19:59,930 --> 00:20:06,790 the, you know, having an opinion and then just forcing it on everyone else kind of thing. 165 00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:16,150 So I'm trying to keep an open mind is what I'm trying to say, because what I want to take out of this experience is a good that comes out of it, 166 00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:26,520 which is really just folding on creating connexion with people that may have similar views and that I hope and being vulnerable. 167 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:36,690 So the Muskies Air Force Base, with incredulity is not only postulated or photo, if it is performance performed despite prejudices, 168 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:42,840 sometimes Muslims with different practises get together and engage in alternative 169 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:51,900 practises in Shia or Sunni Sufi rituals to express Vivus way of being Muslim, 170 00:20:51,900 --> 00:21:00,930 ways of practise, things that they wouldn't necessarily be exposed to in their local traditional mosque or at home, 171 00:21:00,930 --> 00:21:10,110 especially share rituals, for that matter. So women's in because in Musk in the U.K. follow an ethics of justice, 172 00:21:10,110 --> 00:21:16,110 seeming out to more conservative Islamic movement but affected by an epistemological shift. 173 00:21:16,110 --> 00:21:23,520 As we've seen in terms of gender and sexual age politics as fear rise by Islamic feminist Qatar's beyond this, 174 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:30,670 an ethos of radical invisibility is being applied, which Allen West came from different backgrounds to joins a community. 175 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:36,900 Things are very different in France, actually. It is interesting mosque in France. 176 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:47,250 When asked about the inclusion and care of Muslim sexual minority L, which is who is an imam and one of the funder of the mosque, responded to me. 177 00:21:47,250 --> 00:21:57,840 I quote, There are two things. First, that within the mosque there is no discrimination to be made on the basis of somebody's sexual orientation. 178 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,610 And then we also have a theological discourse that we hold on this topic. 179 00:22:02,610 --> 00:22:07,860 And so and so, no, being Muslim in no more sexual is not a problem. 180 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:11,280 It isn't incompatible. It is in the Koran. 181 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:19,950 Doesn't it doesn't deal with this. So that's it. We also add these few logical positions that we affirm whenever necessary. 182 00:22:19,950 --> 00:22:27,030 That's it. But then deep down, it's a bit like the motto of many men or a place of women. 183 00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:32,340 Women should hold in Islam. We talk about it when it's necessary. 184 00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:38,790 But in the mosque, we don't talk about that. It's we really try to talk about spirituality. 185 00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:44,430 So it's pretty the same approach, actually, that we have with the matter of sexuality. 186 00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:50,830 We don't want to fall into feminism as much as we don't want or falling to LGBT bhairavi indications. 187 00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:56,450 It's really the same approach that we are on both topics. 188 00:22:56,450 --> 00:23:06,660 And so these two imams in France do not wish to talk about politics in the mosque and especially not identity politics, 189 00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:17,540 as this is a major difference with the increasing mosque in the U.K., which aims at, as we've seen, to centre marginalised individuals in its face. 190 00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:25,880 And to better understand this. I think we need to consider that both imams in France are converts, 191 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:34,370 Muslim converts from a white Catholic background, and they are ready tend to talk about identity politics. 192 00:23:34,370 --> 00:23:38,810 And I think it is useful to see how they pursue Magreb culture, 193 00:23:38,810 --> 00:23:49,670 which will be a culture of most native Muslims in France when describing a previous experience in Tariq cards before opening the mosque. 194 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:55,520 L can imagine one of the funder mentions feeling uncomfortable. 195 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:04,880 She says that there was a quote, a mix of confusion between religion and culture, as is where Tariq has meaning from Maghreb. 196 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,560 And there was really a mix, whether it was controlling marked as McGreavy. 197 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:17,480 And it really made me uncomfortable because I converted to Islam because of the appeal of this religious tradition. 198 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,190 But not at all for for a form of culture in relation to a nose. 199 00:24:22,190 --> 00:24:29,630 It was really like everybody in Jeddah back was Gousse and Minty for lunch and. 200 00:24:29,630 --> 00:24:37,970 So Kay, which is Zahos, our cofounder, said, I quote, That is to say that we are we are from. 201 00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:47,150 We are both converts. We are from a European culture Western, which makes mixed congregation fun for us. 202 00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:58,030 It's almost self-evident. So here we can see that LNKD of Distance himself from MacRobert character and attributes some of their practises, 203 00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:03,620 such as mixed prayers as related to their own European culture. 204 00:25:03,620 --> 00:25:08,590 This is coherent with the findings of Oser ethnographic studies for Europe, 205 00:25:08,590 --> 00:25:14,920 where a group of Muslim converts seek what they sometimes call a church or free Islam. 206 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:21,850 For example, Venice Sovereign Nation in the Netherlands on Michela Rogas Insulter in Spain 207 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:27,460 conducted ethnographic research with groups of Muslim converts and natives. 208 00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:32,260 And they shows that converts tend to distance themselves from immigrants culture and 209 00:25:32,260 --> 00:25:39,640 seek a practise of Islam in line with what they see as their own cultural values. 210 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,040 So we need to ask yourself what would be. 211 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:53,770 And Kate, cultural values. And I think in France, Republican universalism is a dominant political imaginary. 212 00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:59,630 It is a legacy of the French, Lightman's and NYes that is the foundation of French citizenship. 213 00:25:59,630 --> 00:26:05,890 And aside from the dominant political culture, from the dominant French good church, sorry, 214 00:26:05,890 --> 00:26:12,220 any ethno religious particularism is seen as belonging to the private sphere while in the public sphere. 215 00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:17,800 Only a unique and universal citizenship ought to be expressed. 216 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:25,660 And this is upheld by lay sitting French secularism, the separation between the state and religion, 217 00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:32,200 which makes unlost impossible any political claim on religious grounds. 218 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,860 And so, as he sees the feary and in practise, 219 00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:47,170 it's even more true for Islam compared to Christianity and especially capitalism, which would which enjoy more privileges, 220 00:26:47,170 --> 00:26:48,760 I would say, compared to Islam, 221 00:26:48,760 --> 00:27:03,640 which is still very much seen as a region of an outsider kind of religion basis by the state and by the political elite. 222 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:13,000 So this might explain why imams both L and K are reluctant to engage in identity politics, 223 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:21,280 which offers a vast contrary to our values of universalism and refuse to address political matters in a religious context. 224 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:29,620 That is not to say that Zafrin nationalist understanding of religiosity as they are both quite critical of the state discourse stigmatising women, 225 00:27:29,620 --> 00:27:37,390 Muslim woman wearing a veil. But this criticism takes place in the framework of a broader political imaginary, 226 00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:41,950 which has an impact on the way religious minority can express themselves. 227 00:27:41,950 --> 00:27:48,550 So if we look at the work of the philosopher AbdelNaby DA, who is a strong inspiration for this mosque, 228 00:27:48,550 --> 00:27:53,140 what he's saying regarding justice and Islam is similar to the work of Islamic feminists, 229 00:27:53,140 --> 00:28:02,260 such as where to see Bandiero saying he has no doubt that equality between men and women can be achieved in an Islamic framework. 230 00:28:02,260 --> 00:28:09,130 And it opposes rigid, fixed tradition to come back to genetics of justice against all professions. 231 00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:16,450 But his rhetoric is also very much informed by Republican universalism, creating a on bigots and gender. 232 00:28:16,450 --> 00:28:26,290 He calls for a secular, centralised political movement where progressive Muslims would oppose obscurantism thanks to French humanist values. 233 00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:32,500 And its political imaginary has a strong impact on the way Islamic feminism develops in France. 234 00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:36,220 It is not discussed in a religious base such as inclusive if mosque. 235 00:28:36,220 --> 00:28:42,340 But he's only talked about in one political organisation for Muslim woman who does not collaborate with 236 00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:50,770 the mosque and where solidarity between religious and secular organisation flourish in the UK context. 237 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:55,780 The mosque and feminist organisation remains separated and isolated in France. 238 00:28:55,780 --> 00:29:02,420 Islamic feminism is just too political for inclusive mosque in France. 239 00:29:02,420 --> 00:29:12,400 So within the mosque, this political dimension Narey manifest in a different understanding of inclusive incredulity from universalism, 240 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:19,850 where razzles and paying special attention to the most marginalised LNKD choose to ignore the question of ethnic, 241 00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:26,690 gender and sexual identities altogether. This is not without consequence consequences on ZUWAY. 242 00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:31,950 Pastoral care is felt off and conducted in the mosque. 243 00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:38,490 So now I want to look at a care practises within this mosque and this mosque have two components. 244 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:45,480 When it comes to pastoral care, the first is that they focus on building and sharing knowledge, 245 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,550 which is relevant with the experience of their congregation. And they do so. 246 00:29:50,550 --> 00:29:58,890 This is a civil point in a democratic setting, challenging traditional Iraqi education of all believers. 247 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:04,950 And this is done for translation. Translation from Arabic to English or Arabic to French. 248 00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:12,870 An explanation regarding the historical context. During the Prophet's life and the time of the revelation. 249 00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:23,550 So to quote K, one of the imam and co-founder in France, I quote, The idea is that in a mosque creeley, let's say ideal. 250 00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:33,060 It would be for each believer to be able, after some training, to intern to produce a discourse on an excerpt of the Koran on the theme. 251 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:34,770 It is really as logic. 252 00:30:34,770 --> 00:30:46,790 I would say almost Democratic actually said we want to move on to a light because I liked because in our eyes it is what Islam was about initially. 253 00:30:46,790 --> 00:30:57,030 An M. An imam and co-founder in the U.K. says, I quote, dates people don't go to imams just to talk, 254 00:30:57,030 --> 00:31:04,220 just to ask if they can do something to ask if it's allowed in the Koran, say look online and read for themselves. 255 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:12,540 The imams role is increasingly about pastoral care and counselling, and for many incomes are important because women are of the community. 256 00:31:12,540 --> 00:31:19,560 I think trancing meme's or you mentally identify as queer is important to the democratisation of being an imam. 257 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:29,970 That's what it's all about. So, however, the different conception of increasingly team bring different practises of care. 258 00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:34,590 Why does the mosque and friends focus on generic religious practises discussing 259 00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:39,510 appropriate ways of fasting and praying in the ceremonies for everybody? 260 00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:49,980 So imams at a mosque in the U.K. tends to focus on social issues and often address issues relevant to specific experience of minorities. 261 00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:55,390 That's all. The UK is being based on empirical evidence of what Krimsky women need. 262 00:31:55,390 --> 00:32:02,730 And I will therefore focus Norns of virus practises designed for queer Muslim woman and Luskin's UK. 263 00:32:02,730 --> 00:32:09,670 Funders. I've conducted an ethnographic research from 2001 to 2005 and Benefit Qaid from 264 00:32:09,670 --> 00:32:15,720 the continued involvement of Krimsky Woman from diverse backgrounds in the mosque. 265 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,630 Pastoral care relies on the dialectic between the religious knowledge of the 266 00:32:19,630 --> 00:32:25,450 imams and the experiential knowledge of chromosome woman who attends mass. 267 00:32:25,450 --> 00:32:32,380 So just to give you an example. This is what V is saying vs a member of the mosque. 268 00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:37,150 And here she explains what change in our understanding of the scriptures and Hogue's. 269 00:32:37,150 --> 00:32:42,600 This is relevant to our experience as a Krimsky woman. I quote. 270 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,860 I knew what I was doing was sinful from a Koranic point of view, 271 00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:53,130 because the Quran suggests that homosexuality in Islam is based on the story of the Prophet Klute. 272 00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:59,820 Right. So I knew it was sinful, but I wasn't going to justify my action in Chunge. 273 00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:07,590 What's occurrence saying if that makes sense. So for me, I would rather see him sinful than say the Koran is wrong. 274 00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:15,720 That was very important for me is to not alter was the Koran is saying the workshops have helped me try to make sense of some of that. 275 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,600 And as I'll turn some of my views that I had previously about what does the Arabic actually say, 276 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:29,340 literally not having Arabic as a language that I was familiar with, I I was in through prayers, et cetera. 277 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:38,010 I think those are those that have that knowledge about Arabic language is a workshop helps to interpret what the Koran is trying to get at, 278 00:33:38,010 --> 00:33:47,640 if that makes sense. So I'm at that stage now where I'm kind of taking a step back and saying, well, actually, I didn't think about that. 279 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:58,230 I didn't think about the fact that's the story of prophet. It was not actually directly linked to lesbians, you know, or men having consensual sex. 280 00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:03,380 You know, that sort of valuations of some of the language and the linguistic zat gun. 281 00:34:03,380 --> 00:34:11,530 No, with it. I'm starting to appreciate, you know. So sharing's a few logical work of Islamic feminist, 282 00:34:11,530 --> 00:34:19,020 but also just considering the semantic complexities of Arabic can be especially of help fulcrum 283 00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:25,450 Muslim women who often feel guilt and shame over their personal aspirations and desires. 284 00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:30,260 But this requires to take into consideration their personal struggle. 285 00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:37,820 In the story of the prophet looked the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, punished by God for depraved depravity, 286 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:43,900 is the dominant understanding in the Muslim world is a condemnation of homosexuality. 287 00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:48,490 As men engage in sexual acts with other men, however, 288 00:34:48,490 --> 00:34:57,460 such as Scott Cogo have argued that his intent crosses were not consensual and understand this as a condemnation of rape. 289 00:34:57,460 --> 00:35:04,520 And it's Zis interpretation that is referring to this quote. 290 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:11,660 So is a mosque in the U.K., Muslim women can express themselves during monthly feminist discussion group, 291 00:35:11,660 --> 00:35:20,210 whereas I can read extract of the Koran and edits and analyse their relevance in light of their personal experience. 292 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:26,240 The Koran is often translated using gender neutral pronouns to refer to God. 293 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,890 God is engendered. He's not a patriot coal figure anymore. 294 00:35:30,890 --> 00:35:41,390 And many women express relief at the idea that God did not have a specific gender which would make male domination a divine principle. 295 00:35:41,390 --> 00:35:50,210 The idea of an engine to go is also query with some system tests which are shared in the mosque, especially in Nairobi, 296 00:35:50,210 --> 00:35:59,450 fearing of universe, duplicity of the soul, all living creature sharing one soul regardless of gender. 297 00:35:59,450 --> 00:36:07,530 So it must also occasionally asked workshops and Evans sexual health workshops, for example, 298 00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:12,390 addressing the vulnerability of sexual minorities in terms of mental and physical 299 00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:17,700 health and using the Koran to promote medical treatments and fight prejudice. 300 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:23,660 For example, prejudice against sexual disease that HIV positive people. 301 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:28,940 It can also be a space to open up, but expect Yancy's of abuse, 302 00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:36,530 sexual abuse in a community where these topics are not discussed and subject women to feeling shame and guilt on their own. 303 00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:41,010 Most of the time. 304 00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:51,280 They are also LGBT plus family workshops present which aim at preserving family bonds by sharing literature on Islam and homosexuality. 305 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,490 So resources that mention, I mean, why do its work? 306 00:36:54,490 --> 00:37:03,940 And Scott Cardon's work mainly and challenge the Dominion control narrative of coming out because in Western context, 307 00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:09,700 coming out as clear as gay as lesbian is celebrated more and more. 308 00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:14,740 And is that understood as a form of queer activism in itself? 309 00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:19,840 And so it's they're trying to raise awareness that it is not mandatory. 310 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:26,620 Coming out is not mandatory and that in some context it can be dangerous and harmful. 311 00:37:26,620 --> 00:37:33,910 So they're trying to put some distance with this kind of normalisation of coming out. 312 00:37:33,910 --> 00:37:46,340 They also recognised during this workshop and value queer families and queer Solidarity's as a different kind of kinship. 313 00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:53,530 So here we can draw on the work of Sabang Mahmud's analysis of the mosque movement in Egypt who discuss 314 00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:59,630 discussed in best our fury of bloodily and speech fare from one sense as a condition of agency, 315 00:37:59,630 --> 00:38:07,270 signifying interesting new thanks to troves of norms. So I would say that. 316 00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:10,990 It isn't really between complying with or rebelling against one. 317 00:38:10,990 --> 00:38:17,860 No, my teeth stricture because these Muskat Cosmopolis mosque custom operate environments 318 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:23,140 and they are a wide range of different normative structure at work here. 319 00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:32,560 But as men would feel the body as a medium resource and a sign of yourself, a medium for which a pious self comes to be realised. 320 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:40,300 And Mahmud especially takes the example of modesty and shyness who are being performed 321 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:48,730 for wearing a veil and behaving in a shy way to then be internalised and constricting. 322 00:38:48,730 --> 00:38:59,500 Pay itself a pious Muslim woman. I would argue that we can consider as a collective body of the congregation, 323 00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:06,270 as a medium for which collective virtuousness comes to be realised through inclusive to. 324 00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:14,280 Praying to someone of a different gender. Getting confused with your gesture because you're following the lead of a Shiite imam while being silly. 325 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:22,320 Our performances execs seek to accommodate the awesomeness rather than rejecting it. 326 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,510 One can train himself to accept an otherwise, you know, unusual presence. 327 00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:34,260 Try new religious performances and minorities who usually cannot access Prager's spaces at all. 328 00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:42,660 Get a chance to because to become pious subjects. So makes prayers on that in appropriate ways of worshipping anymore. 329 00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:49,560 But to the contrary ways of worshipping in an inclusive manner that makes us space open to all Muslim. 330 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:57,810 What one of the most funder's in the U.K. calls, I quote, a true Islamic utopia. 331 00:39:57,810 --> 00:40:02,580 So we can consider participation with these events and engagement and pastoral care as 332 00:40:02,580 --> 00:40:09,390 technologies of the self promising woman constructs MSF as part of a career in social imaginary. 333 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:16,120 We're navigating that identity outside of it or unmatched meeting allows them to build solidarity with us so much in life. 334 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:27,320 Muslim individuals caring for the margin is seen as fit as full feeling sorry, a dirty of the duty of protection and strengthening of the goomar. 335 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:33,660 So loud jobs and wider Muslim community against all systems of oppression that queerness 336 00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:40,970 is fully uncompressed within enlisted Muslim ness and from the core your own identity. 337 00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:46,970 So, no, I just want to look at the obstacles that these women face. 338 00:40:46,970 --> 00:40:56,180 And interestingly enough, both mosque in France and the U.K. face the same kind of obstacles. 339 00:40:56,180 --> 00:41:04,380 So funding a mosque, creating a space and caring for others requires certain resources that can be hard to get. 340 00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:09,770 And in line, we have an obstacles that many women face while caring for Ozawa's. 341 00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:15,030 In modern society, the accumulation of duty's between a professional life, 342 00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:21,820 the family life and a spiritual life makes it harder for them to find enough time to perform. 343 00:41:21,820 --> 00:41:29,630 The tax task. Are supposed to perform. So in France and in K manage their mosque on their own. 344 00:41:29,630 --> 00:41:38,120 And I quote hell here. It's complicated because now I'm starting to have too many things to do, in fact. 345 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:45,260 Yeah, I tend to say that I can several jobs, namely teacher P.G candidate Emam. 346 00:41:45,260 --> 00:41:49,760 Yeah, it's pretty complicated to manage. And it's even an obstacle, actually. 347 00:41:49,760 --> 00:42:01,100 Very much so. So the lack of time work is an obstacle to the development of the mosque, but also to their personal lives and asking explains here. 348 00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:07,610 I quote, I know that now, if I wanted, I wouldn't be able to have children. 349 00:42:07,610 --> 00:42:16,160 Clearly, I have no time left. So if I had children, I would need to remove something from my schedule. 350 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,950 So then there are solutions. 351 00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:28,100 It could be for us to make the organisation grow beets so that other people could take responsibilities and discharges of certain tasks. 352 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:34,720 But it could be. And I don't think it could happen without it working part time only. 353 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:42,790 Is a mosque in the U.K., a small group of women manage the mosque, which allows them more time and more support. 354 00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:52,780 However, while I was visiting the mosque, they sometimes had to interrupt their prayers to make sure the event was running smoothly during FDR. 355 00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:58,300 The responsibility of preparing food, giving out information to the congregation, 356 00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:04,770 cleaning the dishes, leading the prayers often fell on the same group of women. 357 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:14,670 So they are absolutely up to the task. But as a participant often says, I quote, I need more men to have my back. 358 00:43:14,670 --> 00:43:22,650 And in that sense, this feminist mosque, US bases, which Sunter women, but where it's a reason, 359 00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:35,700 clearly an increasing call for Muslim men, including Krimsky, two main men, to engage in solidarity with women in the. 360 00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:42,880 Another obstacle is to the difficulty to find suitable spaces in big city centres, 361 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:49,950 a space which would be big enough for that growing congregation and accessible to disabled individuals. 362 00:43:49,950 --> 00:43:56,100 Accessible spaces are rare and a bit more expensive. 363 00:43:56,100 --> 00:44:08,260 And in France, for example, they often have to conduct a prayer in two separate stations because the space is not big enough for everybody. 364 00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:16,660 If their ambition for the future is a common ambition as well, which would be to find a permanent stable bidding for some musk, 365 00:44:16,660 --> 00:44:27,130 because at the minute they are each in your own musk to build lasting solidarities and partnership within one neighbourhood. 366 00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:36,460 And I think there is also it would be also a way to see themselves as a mosque, 367 00:44:36,460 --> 00:44:42,580 like always, a mosque, you know, a normal kind of mosque to to have a stable building. 368 00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:49,710 And that's a nice aspiration for a lot of women actually in this movement right now. 369 00:44:49,710 --> 00:44:59,190 So in conclusion, this two must be different, different understanding of increasingly due to the different positionally T of their funders and to the 370 00:44:59,190 --> 00:45:05,940 different political imagineering that respond to this trigger different practises of pastoral care. 371 00:45:05,940 --> 00:45:13,390 January in France and focussed on lived experiences of individuals that's emerging in the United Kingdom. 372 00:45:13,390 --> 00:45:17,290 These practises of care are part of the constitution of queer Muslim woman's 373 00:45:17,290 --> 00:45:22,050 subjectivity that Koronis allows them to get solidarity with their Muslim. 374 00:45:22,050 --> 00:45:27,090 That's a margin and therefore an ideal of a true Islamic state took care. 375 00:45:27,090 --> 00:45:33,750 This observation needs to be nuance, though, because, as I said earlier, Zimm mosque in the UK is seven years old. 376 00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:40,620 That sends a mosque in France. Muslim Rumanians. France also faced a more offensive political context, 377 00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:49,620 which in Paris and Virginia in speech performances and therefore SEC practises of care they need to be supported. 378 00:45:49,620 --> 00:46:01,210 And this will be my references. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Benjamin. 379 00:46:01,210 --> 00:46:11,830 I really enjoyed your talk enormously because it raises so many more general questions. 380 00:46:11,830 --> 00:46:22,750 Actually, to me personally, this is completely new and fascinating and it just shows you the dynamics as of awful people. 381 00:46:22,750 --> 00:46:34,090 Muslims outside the Middle East or any other Muslim countries are actually engaging with the current issues and the change of generations. 382 00:46:34,090 --> 00:46:42,070 Different perspective. That's fascinating. And I wish you very good luck finishing your research and doing your APHC. 383 00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:51,400 Thank you so much. And for those who are again, less familiar with our seminars or seminars or disturb more finished, 384 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:57,180 we usually have two seminars each term on weeks three and six of the OK, 385 00:46:57,180 --> 00:47:03,490 so the academic term and it will be advertised and sent out to all of you on the mailing list. 386 00:47:03,490 --> 00:47:08,050 And we hope to see some of you the following term and very soon in the flesh. 387 00:47:08,050 --> 00:47:12,940 I hope you know, because we don't we can't go on forever like this. 388 00:47:12,940 --> 00:47:19,810 But but it also has, as is upside in that it has brought people, for example, from South Africa to participate. 389 00:47:19,810 --> 00:47:25,830 So very much. Maybe we can run them in parallel, both in the flesh and online. 390 00:47:25,830 --> 00:47:30,640 But, Benjamin, thank you so much and wish you good luck. 391 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:39,807 Thank you very much. Thank you, everybody, for participating.