Good evening and welcome. My name is Michael Willis.
I'm one of the fellows here, Middle East Centre at St. Anthony's College at the University of Oxford.
And it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to the sixth seminar, this series in our series.
We've been running every Friday evening this term and a term on the Arab uprisings, 10.
And I'm very pleased to introduce this seminar, but we are running jointly with the British Tunisian society,
which gives you an idea about the topic we'll be discussing this evening.
But I'm very pleased that the with the support of the British Tunisian society,
but have really been crucial in putting this whole event to get them a very grateful to the BTX.
I'm particularly grateful to the person who will be chairing very involved in the British Tunisian society,
somebody that is a good friend of the centre and somebody I'm sure many of you know very well.
Professor Charles Triplette. So as who will be introducing the seminar this evening.
Charles. Michael, thank you very much indeed. And thanks to St. Antony's for making it impossible to bowl.
I think what I should say first is something a bit about the British Tunisian society itself,
just to say that it was established or re-established in 2018 as a society meant to
build on the friendship and understanding between Tunisia and the United Kingdom.
So connecting people in both countries with a common interest and with knowledge about each other's histories, cultures, societies and their politics.
And of course, that's what the contribution will be this evening.
So the panel this evening was intended or is intended to give us a chance to reflect on some of
the achievements of the past 10 years since the revolution and the overthrow of Ben Ali in 2011,
but also, of course,
the unfinished business and the unrealised hopes that have marked Tunisia's trajectory since the revolutionary events of 2010 2011.
Because like all revolutions, it's a longer process and some hopes have been disappointed.
Some have been fulfilled. And it's really, too, to reflect upon that, which we have asked our very distinguished two speakers to help us through.
And I just want to introduce the two speakers before handing over to them.
I wanted to use first Dr. Heller Amar, who is a professor of law at the University of Tunis, but also a visual artist.
And one could say that her two roles were vividly demonstrated in 2011.
First of all, with her participation in the art project autocracy inside out that use art to reclaim public spaces in Tunisia with the revolution,
and secondly with our membership of the commission set up by the Tunisian
government in 2011 to look into the conditions of prisons across the country,
striking artworks have been exhibited and form part of collections in Tunisia and internationally.
And if all goes well in the middle of May, you will see some of them exhibited in a new exhibition coming on at the British
Museum called Reflections Contemporary Art from the Middle East and North Africa.
When museums are allowed to reopen again and are other speaker equally distinguished in a different field?
Professor Mohammed Keru is Professor of Political Science at the University of Tunis, but also a member of The Better Hikma,
the Tunisian Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, and a founding member of the Tunisian Observatory for Democratic Transition.
He's published numerous articles and books and most recently in 2018, so eager to see all the other evolution and just appeared, I think, in Tunis.
Jemina, NYSE delivery, also the gem, not the oasis of the revolution, which has just come out.
So before I turn to Dr Hellam, our first I should say something about the format of the evening.
Our speakers will each have about ten to twelve minutes to give us some of their reflections.
I might then lead off with a couple of questions and open the floor, as it were.
You can see it. I'm still in presume mentality. I still think there's a floor, but there isn't to open the floor with for all of you.
For more general questions and discussion that will be chaired by Dr Michael Willis.
So I'm happy to turn over the floor or the screen to help.
Help, please. Good evening. Thank you so much, Charles.
And I'm glad I'm glad to be here to be here with you today.
Yes. Actually, evolution has opened the door to every possible.
And indeed, we we are able to do and to explore and to do things and to explore has never been explored during Bernardes regime.
So to talk about the. Months. And the changes that happened just after the revolution.
I will take two examples, actually,
I would be speaking about two main projects that marked my career as an artist and that marked me also as a citizen.
The first one is visiting prisons and testifying about human rights in Tunisia.
A few weeks after the revolution, as you say, Johns, three national commissions were set up by the provisional government at this time.
And I was appointed as a member of one of them. That commission of enquiry on the abuses committed during the revolution.
Our mission was basically to investigate all types of abuses such as death and bullet injuries,
but also a mutiny in prisons and to determine the response of the political responsible parties.
So so actually, this commission was the first tool of the transitional justice in Tunisia.
And during one year, we we we did, for example, as far as I'm concerned,
I was in the subcommission of prisons and during the year I visited prisons with three other members of the of this commission.
And this was the first time ever. Then civilians entered prisons before and before that before that time.
So during this regime, it was only the Red Cross that was able to visit prisons and their reports were confidential.
So no one could know what was happening to into prisons.
Of course, we were aware that human rights were floating, of course, but no one could imagine how bad were the conditions of detentions where.
So after this so we could we were able for the first time to testify about the human rights violation in prisons.
And one year after. So the report has been published and.
In the same time I was down myself, I have to do something about this,
I have to testify not only as a member, as a jurist, as a member of this commission,
but also as a citizen who has lived something, something huge, you know, talking with that with inmates,
visiting prisons, exploring a field that I would never imagine exploring before.
So there was there is still a festival of art in public spaces.
To me, it's called the Dream City. And this for this is this year, I choose to testify about what I lift into prison with with this commission.
And I. I showed Virk pictures I took during a year in prisons.
And actually I replenished the prison universe with with the pictures and also testimonies of of the prisoners.
And it was, it was really a great experience because of two things.
First,
I think it was the first time and I think it will be the last one also because because unfortunately no one is is able to take picture into prisons.
So I think there would be only those one those the one I took during this case this year.
And the cigar is for the second reason because, you know, prison in Tunisia, it was taboo.
Like No one talk about prisons.
We had only few testimony from the prisoners under Bourguiba Logush Tunisian.
So. So we didn't know what what was happening. What didn't happen there.
So, yes, 10 years after after visiting prison, what has changed?
I think the conditions of detention hasn't said they haven't changed that much.
Even if some some some reform, some reforms have been undertaken.
But still, you know, still more generally, many steps have been made in terms of transitional justice, rehab, dilatation of victims and so on.
But still, the process is not finished yet.
The second example is the second project was called Arctic Husky Inside Programme, initiated by French photographer G.
And in March 2006 and eleven.
And this project will replace the portrait of an idea which was everywhere, you know, in every street, in every every everywhere in Tunisia.
So where we choose to replace the portrait of Ben Ali by thousands of portraits of unknown Tunisians, the sum was a symbolic,
was strong, and we thought that it would be a beautiful homage to Tunisian people, the Tunisian people.
But the funniest thing was that we were expecting such reaction from from people in the street.
We were passing the pictures that the portraits and in the same time, even the people who helped us to pass the pictures were ripping them apart.
It was it was completely unexpected. And also, we faced very hostile and violent reactions from from people in the street.
Some of them were saying that we are unbelievers because you're a woman representation.
And so portraits are forbidden in Islam. Sullivan would say also that the portraits, black and white portraits are ugly.
And instead, we should have bastad like colour, age lines, like capes, bund trees, some flowers, etc.
Some of them also disagreed with putting strangers portraits of strangers in their walls, their streets, they their neighbourhood.
And instead we have and they were saying instead you have you should have busted the portraits of myself.
I'm not known what went on in my in my country or or in my in my neighbourhood or in my street.
Actually, as I said as I said, you know, the reaction were completely unexpected and hard to understand.
But if we look deeper into them, we can see what has changed since the fall of the regime.
And this also could explain what happened later and what what we are still experiencing now.
First of all, we heard the first for the first time, the first the voices of Salafis,
or at least of conservative people who would put religion above all freedoms.
It's also these reactions also shows a show how much people how much people wear and see the art.
I'm familiar with art in public space and maybe also I'm familiar with the concept of public space,
with the concept of living and doing together in a public space.
And this is pretty normal. You know, after more than 20 years of dictatorship.
So, in fact, everyone was appropriating this this public space, a public space that never quite freely used before.
Another thing is that I think the most important thing that all of them all fuss even us as artists or citizen we're experimenting with.
We were experimenting a very new freedom of speech.
Even even if even if that seemed to me you'd like one dictator at this time to have one dictator has been has been replaced by 11 million dictators.
So that was yeah, that was the feeling I had this day.
And maybe sometimes even now, you know, with all the demonstrations across the country.
So, yes, if I want to summarise, I think I reached my time.
If I want you to summarise, I'd say that the major change that has lasted is the freedom of speech.
Today, we have the right, but also the power to speak out to contests and to denounce.
This is, of course, a huge achievement. And some would say that 10 years after the revolution, this is not enough.
And we're still expecting more significant chancers changes that would make Tunisia reached a democratic country.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Really interesting.
And thank you so much.
For keeping to your time schedule in a very good way and then giving us a lot of things to think about, which we'll come back to in the questions.
But now I'd like to turn to Mohammed Mohammed Karu to give his reflections from a slightly different perspective possibly of the last 10 years.
Good evening. I am very happy to take part to the webinar.
Thank you all very much to all the organisers and participants.
And the question is, where are we today? Ten years after.
While this is a simple equation, a question, the answer is not always obvious.
From my point of view, there are at least the three components of the historical process of evolution and the political transition.
First of all, the relationship between old and the new regime.
Second, the building of democratic institutions and third, social movements since the time devoted to the presentation is short.
I wish I would focus on the third issue, which is related to social movements.
And during the debate, I will come back, if you want to, the two other components.
So concerning social movements, we could say that young people are still mobilised as far as the objectives of the revolution,
which are as you know, a freedom and dignity are not realise it yet.
They are demonstrating in the streets and public places.
Using social media. Of course. Ten years after the revolution, young people feel frustrated.
For having waited so long without any achievements.
So the revolutionary process is still continuing by following three parties or three main day elections.
First of all, the path. So we could say the path of the gym now.
Second, the path or the case, because there are cases that studies case workers of come.
And the third is urban demonstrations. Let's begin with the Jimena.
Jimena is a small village and also an oasis located in the south of Tunisia in the southwest of Tunisia.
There are social actors are involved in a battle on the right of the land.
And since 2011, they have occupied the ancient colonial domain or farm.
If you want colonial farm planted with parliament and producing dates.
This farm belongs to the national state.
Of course, the challenge then is between the legality, the national state legality and the people democratic legitimacy.
In 2011, some people of Jemina created comedy, revolutionary comedy,
but one year later in 2012, they transformed the committee in an NGO association with NGO.
During 10 years, they are controlled.
They are taking control of the domain and collectively as a collectively cell of managing the land and its resources to the benefits,
to the benefit of the community of Jemina. Gymnast striving for dignity and collective identity is probably I do say probably.
So don't don't take it for granted. It's just to put it is.
Maybe he's the only success story of the Tunisian revolution.
Second, the second case is alcohol. These pumping are.
And the gas station is located, as you know, in the extreme so far from that,
without C8 minders in Kabul or around that car, more people have occupied the station and they formate coordination.
Coordination Committee representing eight localities of the governorate or the region of that
are we they negotiated with the government and reached an agreement which not been implemented.
The better for sharing of wealth and social justice.
It got more. It is organised through an informal structure in an informal organisation.
It seems to me that if that turns out to be a counter social movement.
Because it's more concerned with blocking the prediction.
And opposing the state line, promoting a constructive social social project lection.
Finally, the urban protesters, the field of urban protests is both the poor district of Tunisian cities and the public.
Places like Avenue will give Avenue like Essabar and the public place of Libardo in the poor districts located in the periphery of the city's.
This is related to the logical fry it having four major social actors out of school, youth people.
Meanwhile, the political actors in the public places are you educated at high school and universities.
They express through the revolutionary slogans the rejection, the rejection of the new political power.
They receive it as consett about conservative and corrupted.
What is remarkable? He's the missing link link, the missing link link between the two about protest movements,
which are also not strongly connected to civil society, mainly, mainly labour union.
From that Gamma's. The weakness of social movements in Tunisia was revolution.
Thank you very much and welcome to your comments and remarks. Ahmed, thank you very much.
I think it gives us a flavour of what we're going to meet in the book on Jemina.
That's coming out. That's a good foretaste as well. I mean, I thought that before I opened the floor.
But the screen, as it were, to discussion for everyone. I might put a couple of questions to both of you to see if you how you respond to it,
because it seemed the both of you in different ways had addressed it seem to be a key question of the revolution,
which is how should one be a Tunisian citizen after revolution?
What are the possibilities of citizenship? What are the possibilities artistically? And also in terms of, as I said, what?
What role does art play in making people more aware of their rights to public space and elsewhere?
So I'd ask Heller a bit about do you think that art in Dream City, in public space by moving into public space, has opened people's eyes to things?
Has it increased debate if you had a certain amount of resistance at the beginning?
Has it overcome it? So that would be one area.
And then for Mohammed, I think, again, one of the interesting questions is if you think that the conditions of citizenship.
That you described in Jemina have been made possible.
What do you think that makes it possible that that makes it quite troubling and difficult in other areas,
even in places where it's come close to it, like Cam or Kirkconnell or other other areas of Tunisia?
So, hello. Would you take up that question of the question of the effect of art in public space,
whether it's enlarged it, whether it's simply entrenched divisions?
I think that that art has has played a major role in in letting people be familiar with the public space.
Actually, just after the revolution, there were a lot of exhibitions, a lot of of arts in the public space.
And in this time, like in this time, like two years, like two, three years after the revolution,
people were still not familiar with this form of art, like dancing theatre in public space or even painting, et cetera.
And I said to people, but it was also the government that was not familiar with that, with its ways of expression, you know.
And I remember the happily, happily what happened in Libya.
And this time it was a huge exhibition.
And and people came and. And I said that this art is against religion and we are art as artists and believers, et cetera.
And it set fire to the country, you know. And government at this time, which was composed of by a by another by the religion of the religious party.
Agreed with these people, you know? And we were like like them.
Like completely as artists, completely. Favoured by these people and by the government.
But fortunately, you know, after this, people get used to to see artists in the streets, artists dancing, painting, etc.
So I think. I was always talking about living together.
You know, I think this is as an artist, we as artists,
we are responsible also of making things happen, you know, and creating a link between us, our art.
But it's also people, people in public spaces.
As course can do that. I mean, it's it's a it's a good answer and it leads you to think of many other possibilities that come out of it as well.
But that's exactly what we were after. Mohammed, I don't know whether you want to think a bit about the the question of citizenship in your contexts.
Yeah. Yeah. I think this is his ship is a process and there is not achieve it.
It is continuing. And the case of Jim, it has been interesting because they it demonstrate is not there.
There is both rapture with all the regime and the NSA to build a new regime at the local level and discipline them not.
And the successor regime now is thinking doing them, which will could triple life.
Three daughters of Jemina. First of all, the art of negotiation.
They had a lot of negotiation with the government, the very recognition of the government.
And that's a lot of negotiation. Of all, the ministers are gone.
And there is that tradition of migration, not tradition of migration.
And this helps to link local and global.
With national and global, of course, and the gymnast, you have also a tradition of knowledge, local knowledge.
There are many intellectuals, many militants which have a great experience of politics.
That's it, very much that's fabulous. It's interesting looking at the different combinations and how that exists in different places.
I think there are plenty of questions now coming from the floor as I'd hand over to Michael to chair.
He's been watching them all. And then he will put them to you.
But thank you both very much indeed. Thank you very much, Charles.
Yes. We've got questions coming in, and just to let you know, if you would like to put a question to either one or both of the speakers tonight,
you you can type it into a Q&A bar that you'll see on your screen and it will come up if you want to be identified,
to put your name, if you'll be anonymous. That's absolutely fine.
And I'll try and get through as many of the questions as I can before the end of our session.
But the first question comes from Yusuf Sharif.
Very nice to have you join us. Yousef.
And he addresses these questions, Mohammed or as he very, very correctly see Mohammed CARU and UCITS question is, and I quote,
We often mention the objectives of the revolution in quotation marks when describing the events of the last decade.
But who defined these objectives? How can we establish objectives and demands which are organisational elements in a protest?
But no, Fullwood with that has no formal organisation.
So, Mohammed, very interesting question. And I'm not surprised because Yusuf is the clever man,
the clever and the good friend who is following the current situation in Tunisia, who defined the low objective, these objectives.
There is no definition of objective. It was defined it by by the slogan of the revolution.
There is not formal definition of the term.
But the slogan one of the slogan, one of the main slogan of the revolution was Work Labour Day and Dignity.
National Dignity. Of course, these. Is ambiguous as a slogan.
But people deal with that ambiguous slogan during the revolutionary process.
There is no institutional definition of the objectives of the revolution.
It's produced by a mass mobilisation research by the history of mobilisation.
And is still continuing. Of course. Thank you very much indeed for that.
And this question goes to Hillah. And this comes from Ezgi, Basra.
Good to see you, Askey. Thank you for joining us and asking would like I was intrigued by one statement you made.
Hello. She'd like you to elaborate more on it, saying,
can you elaborate more on the statement one dictator was replaced by, I think you said 11 million dictators.
It's something more about that. I was intrigued by that. Exactly what you meant by that as well.
Yeah. Actually, during that Chinese regime, no one could say anything.
You know, other low was low.
And even if we were waiting for more freedom or for more freedom of speech or for more dignity or for more things like this,
you know, we we stood quiet and. And then after the following the regime,
everyone would ask things you would never ask during Bernanke's that regime for
himself without dealing with with the expectations of the of other people.
You know, like this is Mike's treat. We don't have you.
You don't you are not allowed to stand in my street.
This is my job. You're not allowed to to come to my office or this is my company, you know.
And I want the best for my company. I don't care about yours.
So people were asking things for themselves without without caring about other people.
And this is why I said that this is actually this is a work in a work in process,
because this is about living together and dealing with our expectations.
But, of course, with the expectations of other two nations. So it's a balance to it's a balance two to two.
We have to find to be citizens. And this is what at this time, I felt like one dictator was replaced by 11 million of dictators.
It's a fight. It's a way of saying. Thank you very much.
That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I like that a lot.
Our next question is looking at the disconnect really between the politics of protest and formal politics.
And it comes from Miriam La wheaty. Miriam basically is saying that the youth are protesting it's disappointment, but at the same time,
they're not participating in elections, resulting in what she calls the pathetic results that we all suffer.
Do you have any explanations for why that's the case? Maybe perhaps even say something about how that can be overcome, if at all possible.
Even one of you will be welcome to try that. Yeah. It's it's very pertinent.
It's very an important issue.
It's true that the UK people don't participate due to the election, but express their anger through demonstration is to now.
They. They did not participate. But we don't know in the future if they could participate next election.
We don't know exactly where is the direction of the people.
Thank you very much. Now, the next the next question actually comes from two people.
We have a joint question from two good friends of the Middle East.
Centella is that Tommy, Jack and Bobby Parks? And they ask.
When we think of a protest, the thousands of protests and social movements annually, especially after 2018,
in addition to such incredible experiences as Jemena, which you you were referring to Mohammed earlier.
Do you think that we can use the contentious experiences in Tunisia to think beyond
the economic determinism that so many academics attached to the study of protests?
In other in other words, what kind of politics is behind these diverse and many movements?
And they say, thank you for asking and thank you for your question and really about this economic determinism.
Can we move beyond that? Absolutely.
Absolutely. The case of him and other demonstrations show us.
That we need to reflect that beyond the determining the economic determinist, because these movements are linked with collective identity,
not with only the economic level as people think of or as the intellectual being.
Back to the main issue is the collective identity of communities, communities of young people, community, no,
community of incommode and so on, we are now experiencing new ways of thinking and new ways of protesting, I think.
Thank you. Next question comes from Robin Kiely.
Thank you very much for joining us. Robin, I hope Robin won't mind me saying that.
Robin is a former British ambassador to Tunisia. And Robin's question is about the role of NGO.
And he asks, how do you see the role of NGOs developing, given that the sector was quite developed,
albeit firmly controlled by the pouvoir before the revolution, a way of uninvolved and dynamiting society or a parallel government with other agendas?
So the role of NGOs perhaps stops. Heller may be able to say something about this as well as Mohammed.
About the role of NGOs. Yeah. OK. Yes, actually, it depends of NGOs, you know, for example, and the field of human rights NGO.
So it was we're able to to play a major role in developing tools to to improve human rights in Indonesia.
It depends. Actually, even even if I can, I can think of other end to use NGOs in income, economic fears or et cetera.
It improves it. It helps actually to to to find some tools so to improve their skills.
It hasn't replaced the role of governments.
I think it's a cooperation between government and NGO, but also between NGO and civil society.
And I can't imagine a process without this cooperation.
How much did you want to add anything? Not. Just an idea.
We could say that we have to kind two kinds of civil society in Tunisia and then brought down to a formal civil society and an informal civil society.
The former civil society. Attracted by an NGO has played a major role during the first year.
Position. Now we are facing a new. Informal civil society, which is very different from the other.
Let's say that the first two became bourgeois bourgeoisie to be a society.
I think it's very important to observe and to analyse now.
And the demonstration urban in urban field and also in income over and the JEMINA outlook are linked to an informal civil society,
not formal civil society, except the except the role of you to do.
Which is the complex. Thank you very much.
A question for Heller this time, and it's a question that I very heavy on you as well from Dr. Caromed side, who is an anthropologist, and they ask.
I'm so curious about hostility towards the art projects in which your team replaced pictures of Bernadi with those of ordinary citizens.
What do you think this reveals about public media and the value of appearance in public space?
Advertisements are so common on Main Streets and metro stations in Tunis.
Do you think it was the more private placement of the portraits or something about their aesthetic styling that triggered the opposition?
Very well. Very interesting question.
Thank you for asking, actually.
Well, what triggered those reaction?
We we couldn't say at this time because we arrived as an artist like Superman's, you know.
Yeah. We are replacing finally Bernardes portraits by a by a thousand self Tunisian of portraits of Tunisian unknown Tunisian people.
And on the contrary, people have not received this as a knowledge, but as an intrusion in their life, in their public space.
And and it was a lesson at the end.
It was, for me, a lesson of humility, you know,
because because that that teaches me that we have to deal with the public space as the people industry have to deal with artists.
And before that, they were like a gap between artists and and people in the street.
Thank you very much. Unfolding sort of on on that's about the expression.
Another question for you, Hala, is from an anonymous pen.
That's perfectly fine in terms of you can leave your name or not and says you
said that freedom of speech has been the main change since the revolution.
That seems to have been, however, a recent increase in government crackdowns on bloggers and online commentators.
Is this something you are concerned about? Yes, of course.
We are all concerned here in Turkey and yet in Tunisia about. About violation of our rights to to speak freely online or to media, etc.
And, you know, in French, we have I don't know how to translate make a choice.
Would it translate, as I say, the natural, I hope young and.
These are like reflex, you know, of the old regimes that they are not familiar yet with, with the freedom of speech.
So there is, of course, crackdowns.
But on the other hand, when it happened, people denounce this is the censorship and and through media network, etc., we all denounce.
They said that the censorship and Q question now from a Tunisian colleague here at Oxford and a good friend and colleague at the centre,
Mohamed Salah Omari and Mohammed Salah welcomes you and thanked you for your succinct and suggestive interventions very much.
Mohamed Satis question is,
both of you describe deep change at the level of practises that citizenship is there are not social back to sustain this change or is it temporary?
So that's the both of you who would like to try. But perhaps, Mohammed, would you like to try?
That's a very good question. But then really, I have no answer for this question.
It's not easy. We don't know exactly if it's in death or itself superficial.
We don't know. We have doubt.
It's nothing that we have no one. We have no Savi's session.
So soon as you consider what to say, to know exactly the values of people and how they deal with power.
If they have the same attitude, the same at a presentation of the power on.
If this representation is changing now, we don't know exact.
But it's a very interesting question from social science point of view.
Of course, you want to say something on that panel. And that's it.
I guess I said everything right. OK.
Thank you. I know somebody who would like to go back to one of the questions.
This is from Barney Porter. We know. Well, welcome, Barney. Sure. Very nice of you to join us.
And just as I wondered where we could go back to the question of why young people are not participating in here.
Helus thoughts because of our experiences with working with young people in the Madina.
Your particular perspective from your experiences there? Yeah.
Hi, Venetia. Glad you're here. So, yes, I don't know where they are not participating,
but maybe if I go back and I can tell you worse about this experience to two or three, four, maybe four,
two or three or four years ago, I had a residency in the heart of the Trueness Madina of trains with five young people,
and I followed them in their daily life.
Young people who were very representative of the youth in Tunisia, like all of them, were dreaming about a legal migration, about leaving the country.
They're disappointed by and bye bye politics in Tunisia very improved also by by them social and economic situation in in Tunisia.
And it was very interesting to work with them and to learn more about them because
because I felt like there's a really gap between youth in Tunisia and our politician.
And even as an Hamied said and even a part of the civil society in in Tunisia,
you know, they and even then, you know, they say that they are completely,
completely they they feel alone, you know, in front of the regime, in front of Shwetha, in front of all of the other other people in Tunis.
So, yes, this was a very interesting and interesting experience I had.
And I wish that people could talk more with with the youth continues and understand that expectation by people.
I mean politicians. Thank you. Moving back to the subject of the social movements, particularly that Mohammed crew was talking about.
We have a question coming in Spain from Miguel that on Monday.
Very good to see you, Miguel. Thank you for joining us.
And Miguel asks, could you develop that the role of the UDP team and its relationship would be social movements?
I think you did mentioned in passing that hasn't been a strong, strong link, but perhaps you you could say a little bit more about that.
Thank you. The role of Russia today is very labour union is very important, is crucial in Tunisia, in the history of Tunisia and the Tunisian history.
And if we observe the attitude of Usui today towards the social movements, they don't produce these social liberty.
They uncaught age, the social movement when they feel it's a legitimate demand of people.
And the role is very complex of Usui, the delusion that is the main organisation, the main NGO in civil society.
And the morale of Egypt today is between state and civil society.
It's that at the same time, an official organisation and also an organisation which I'll quote as informal civil society.
And it's very interesting to study. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Next question is from a Tunisian student who is actually an that man in the men's room.
And a man asks. Thank you for your contribution.
And asks Foliate. Is the following the one that has been praised, the Tunisian exceptionalism of Tunisia being an Arab anomaly,
as described in the title of a book, Someone by Satwant al-Masri, I know not everybody agrees with his perspective on things.
Am I right to think, she asks, that there is an inherent paradox between Tunisia being an exception?
On one hand, yet doomed to a vicious circle of socio economic and political issues.
And she says, I'm curious to know your thoughts on when we can stop talking about the start at the end of a difficult situation back.
Even one of you, I think it's OPAP, Mohammed, you can start with that again.
The Tunisian exception is the MIF produced by media and some intellectuals.
And now is finished. It's over. Now, it's the beginning of the.
This all the bullet. Well, politics in Tunisia and the economic and the global.
The global levels. Thank you for question coming in from Edward Oakden.
Thanks. So presenters and Edward asks in so far as it is possible to generalise.
To what extent do you think that young people have a common vision of where they want the country to be in 10 years time?
And Edwards is the present British ambassador ambassador in Tunisia and says hello to everybody.
So basically, is there a common vision, you think? Is it possible to have a common vision?
I think that could go to both of you. I think it's hard to talk about common vision, you know, because everyone has its own vision for now.
And the challenge is to have this common vision to run the country and to set up the priorities, you know, so.
So, yes, as Mohammed said,
this is the beginning of the difficulties and that we cannot resolve these difficulties we have without having a common vision.
And this is the most difficult thing to to have for the moment.
I don't know, Mohammed, what do you think of you know? And another aspect to it is very important.
Now is the lack of leadership in Tunisia. This is a big issue.
In Indonesia today. Do you think, though, I one often wonder if I may my chip and myself.
Do you think the problem in Tunisia was it had too much leadership in the past on the bogy burned banali?
Is that part of the problem? If we if we compare the history of Tunisia with other Arab countries, there was no much leadership.
There is a there was a lack of leadership after Bourguiba.
We've been I mean, there is nobody that she and also today we have noted that she I mean, nationally.
Did she. Nationally that she'd be doing.
There is no president who. Is able to express, obviously, leadership.
In the country today. Actually, it's started.
And this is a difference between between leadership and dictatorship during but with Banani and also Bourguiba,
where until like a dictatorship or one one person decides for for all.
And this is not leadership, you know.
This is not the leadership we want for our country. Now, after after after the revolution.
And of course, there's a lack. Yes. There's a lack of leadership and there is no common vision.
But maybe if if politicians meet together and set up priorities, maybe at this time we could we could go forward with a country.
Thank you very much. We have time. I think just one more question. Unfortunately, I apologise to those who weren't.
I brought that question. This question comes from Paul Utzon's towards Mohammed.
And he again wants to come back on something that you say, describing Jemina as maybe the only success of the revolution.
Would you say something a little bit more about that?
Yeah, no, it's the only success that we are not sure if there will be an agreement between the government and Egypt.
Look, the government has no time for. No time for a new Sisi in the country.
So we don't know what the future what will be the future of Egypt.
Thank you very much.
So we're still waiting for the future, which seems like maybe a appropriate note to end things on, but thank you very much to both of you.
I'll come back. Back to Charles and then Charles can head back to me.
Charles. Well, thank you, Michael. Thank you, really, I just want to thank both of you very much, as well as all those who put questions to you.
But really for giving us such a wonderful series of insights into the dilemmas facing Tunisians, Tunisian citizens and indeed Tunisian leadership.
And you can see why we are justified in calling this unfinished revolutions, because clearly there are like in all revolutions,
there are many processes at work and some people think they've achieved a success.
Other people clearly say there's too much to be done yet to claim success.
But I think you both managed to show an indifferent but interestingly complementary ways the successes.
But also the challenges faced by many in Tunisia on all sorts of levels.
And the hope is that some of the recognition of those challenges will come together and not be seen as playing for a zero sum game.
In Tunisia itself. But that's part of the challenge of citizenship itself, which I think you both illuminated.
So, Hala. Mohammed, thank you so much indeed for for your contributions this evening.
Really outstanding. And we look forward to the exhibition at the British Museum, Hala.
And we look forward to the appearance of Jimena.
I see. Is also looking forward to that very much indeed.
And I also want to thank Michael and the Middle East centre.
That's an honour and it's for hosting this evening and also for the unseen person who has made all this possible,
Stacy Chirchir, who really we want to thank for having set the thing up so brilliantly and making it all work so smoothly.
Michael, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sheldon. Thank you, Stacey Stacy, for running and setting all of this up.
And thank you very much, Charles and the producers, Tunisian society, for making this possible.
It's been wonderful work in partnership and it's a great organisation.
I remember when when joint organisations between Britain and Tunisia were rather different arrangements to go back more than 10 years.
And it's wonderful to have that cooperation. And Charles and the other members have been wonderful with that.
Thank you, Charles. And thank you again, Mohamed and Helen. Thank you for coming and spending time and coming in from Tunisia.
And we wish you well. And thank you very much. The session that ends this week.
And apologies again for those of you ask questions when they put them. Please do join us next week.
The seventh in the series. When we've been doing a retrospective on the role of social media 10 years on from the Arab uprisings.
But that's a very good evening to you. Have a wonderful weekend. Good to see you.
Thank you very much.