Good evening and welcome. My name's Michael Willis.
I'm one of the fellows here, Middle East Centre at St. Anthony's College at the University of Oxford.
And it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to the sixth seminar, this series in our series.
We've been running every Friday evening, this term and literary term on the Arab uprisings 10.
And I'm very pleased to introduce this seminar, but we are running jointly with the British Tunisian society,
which gives you an idea about the topic we'll be discussing this evening.
But I'm very pleased that the with the support of the British Tunisian society that have really been crucial in putting this whole event to get them,
are very grateful to the BTX and particularly grateful to the person who'll be chairing very involved in the British Tunisian society,
somebody that is a good friend of the centre and somebody I'm sure many of you know very well.
Professor Charles Triplette. So us, who will be introducing the seminar this evening.
Charles. Michael, thank you very much indeed. And thanks to St. Antony's for making it possible.
I think what I should say first is something a bit about the British Tunisian society itself.
Just to say that it was established or re-established in 2018 as a society meant to
build on the friendship and understanding between Tunisia and the United Kingdom.
So connecting people in both countries with a common interest and with knowledge about each other's histories, cultures, societies and their politics.
And of course, that's what the contribution will be this evening.
So the panel this evening was intended or is intended to give us a chance to reflect on some of
the achievements of the past 10 years since the revolution and the overthrow of Ben Ali in 2011,
but also, of course,
the unfinished business and the unrealised hopes that have marked Tunisia's trajectory since the revolutionary events of 2010 2011.
Because like all revolutions, it's a longer process and some hopes have been disappointed.
Some have been fulfilled, and it's ready to reflect upon that, which we have asked our very distinguished two speakers to help us through.
And I just want to introduce the two speakers before handing over to them.
I want to introduce first Dr. Heller Amar, who is a professor of law at the University of Tunis, but also a visual artist.
And one could say that her two roles were vividly demonstrated in 2011.
First of all, with her participation in the art project autocracy inside out that use art to reclaim public spaces in Tunisia with the revolution,
and secondly with our membership of the commission set up by the Tunisian
government in 2011 to look into the conditions of prisons across the country,
striking artworks have been exhibited and form part of collections in Tunisia and internationally.
And if all goes well in the middle of May, you will see some of them exhibited in a new exhibition coming on at the British
Museum called Reflections Contemporary Art from the Middle East and North Africa.
When museums are allowed to reopen again and our other speaker equally distinguished in a different field.
Professor Mohammed Keru is professor of political science at the University of Tunis, but also a member of The Better Hikma,
the Tunisian Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, and a founding member of the Tunisian Observatory for Democratic Transition.
He's published numerous articles and books, and most recently in 2018, local library saw the other revolution and just appeared, I think in Tunis.
Jemina NYSE. Everybody saw the Jemina, the oasis of the revolution, which has just come out.
So before I turn to Dr. Hellam, our first I should say something about the format of the evening.
Our speakers will each have about 10 to 12 minutes to give us some of their reflections.
I might then lead off with a couple of questions and open the floor, as it were.
You can see it. I'm still in presume mentality. I still think there's a floor, but there isn't to open the floor for all of you.
For more general questions and discussion that will be chaired by Dr. Michael Willis.
So I'm happy to turn over the floor or the screen to help.
Please. Good evening. Thank you so much, Charles.
I'm glad to be here with you today. Yes, actually,
evolution has opened the door to every possible and indeed we were able to do
things until explored fears we never could explore during Bernanke's regime.
So to talk about the achievements and the changes that happened just after the revolution, I will take two examples.
Actually, I would be speaking about two main projects that marked my career as an artist and that marked me also as a citizen.
The first one is visiting prisons and testifying about human rights in Tunisia.
A few weeks after the revolution, as you say, jobs, three national commissions were set up by the provisional government of this time.
And I was appointed as a member of one of them. That commission of enquiry on the abuses committed during the revolution.
Our mission was basically to investigate all types of abuses such as death and bullet injuries,
but also a mutiny in prisons and to determine the political responsibilities.
So actually, this commission was the first tool of the transitional justice in Tunisia.
And during one year we did, for example, as far as I'm concerned,
I was in the subcommission of prisons and during good year, I visited prisons with three other members of this commission.
And this was the first time ever. Then civilians entered prisons before that time.
So during this regime, it was only the Red Cross that was able to visit prisons.
And there were reports. Right, confidential. So no one could know what was happening into prisons.
Of course, we were aware that human rights were floating.
Of course. But no one could imagine how bad the conditions of detentions were.
So after this, we were able for the first time to testify about the human rights violation in prisons.
And one year after, so the report has been published and.
In the same time I was down myself, I have to do something about this.
I have to testify not only as a member, as a jurist, as a member of this commission, but also as a citizen who has lived something,
something huge, you know, talking with with inmates, visiting prisons, exploring a field that I would never imagine exploring before.
So there is still this festival of art in public spaces to music called the Dream City.
And this year I choose to testify about what I lift into prison with with this commission.
And I showed Virk pictures I took. During a year in prison.
And actually, I replenished the reason universe with the pictures and also testimonies of the prisoners.
And it was it was really a great experience because of two things.
First, I think it was the first time,
and I think it will be the last one also because because unfortunately no one is able to take picture into prisons.
So I think there would be only those one I took during this year.
And the second reason because. You know, prison in Tunisia.
It was taboo, like no one talk about prisons.
We had only few testimony from the prisoners under Bourguiba that logush Tunisian.
So. So we didn't know what what was happening. What is didn't happen, you get there.
So, yes, 10 years after visiting prison, what has changed?
I think the conditions of detention hasn't said they haven't changed that much.
Even if some reforms have been undertaken.
But still, you know, still more generally. Many steps have been made in terms of transitional justice, rehabilitation of victims and so on.
But still, the process is not finished yet.
The second example is a second projec project was called off Tokarski InsideOut Beauchamp's initiated by French photographer.
And in March 2006 and eleven.
And this project we replaced the portrait of an idea which was everywhere, you know, every street in every everywhere in Tunisia.
So way we choose to embrace the portrait of Ben Ali by thousands of portraits of unknown Tunisians.
The sum, the symbolic was strong. And we thought that it would be a beautiful homage to Tunisian people.
But the funniest thing was that we were expecting such reactions from from people in the street.
We were passing the pictures that the portraits and in the same time, even the people who helped us to pass the pictures were ripping them apart.
It was completely unexpected and also we faced very hostile and violent reactions from from people in the street.
Some of them were saying that we are unbelievers because you're a woman representation.
And so portraits are forbidden in Islam. Sullivan would say also that the portraits, black and white portraits are ugly.
And instead, we should have bastad like coloured landscapes, bunde trees, some flowers, etc.
Some of them also disagreed with putting strangers portraits of strangers in their walls, their streets, their neighbourhood.
And instead, we have and they were saying instead you have you should have posted the virtues of myself.
I'm not. I was well known in my in my country or or in my in my neighbourhood.
Sorry. Or in my street. Actually, as I said, you know, the reaction were completely unexpected and hard to understand.
But if we look deeper into them, we can see what has changed since the fall of the regime.
And this also could explain what happened later and what we are still experiencing now.
First of all, we heard the first for the first time,
the first the voices of Salafism or at least of conservative people who would put religion above all freedoms.
Also, these reactions also shows how much people were and still are.
I'm familiar with art in public space.
Maybe also I'm familiar with the concept of public space, with the concept of living and doing together in a public space.
And this is pretty normal. You know. After more than 20 years of dictatorship.
Interact, everyone was appropriating this this public space, a public space that never could freely used before.
Another thing is that I think the most important thing that all of them, all us, even as artists or a citizen, we're experimenting.
We were experimenting. A very new freedom of speech.
Even if that seemed to me you'd like one dictator at this time to have one dictator, it has been has been replaced by eleven million dictators.
So that was yeah, that was the feeling I had this time.
And maybe sometimes even now, you know, with all the demonstrations across the country.
So, yes, if I want to summarise, I think I reached my time.
I'd say that the major change that has lasted is a freedom of speech.
Today, we have the right, but also the power to speak out to contest and to denounce.
This is, of course, a huge achievement. But some would say that 10 years after the revolution, this is not enough.
And we're still expecting more significant changes that would make Tunisia a real democratic country.
Thank you very much. Really interesting and thank you so much.
Also keeping to your time schedule in a very good way and then giving us a lot of things to think about, which we'll come back to in the questions.
But now I'd like to turn to Mohammed Mohammed Keru to give his reflections from slightly different perspective, possibly of the last 10 years.
Good evening. I am very happy to take part to the webinar.
Thank you all very much to all the organisers and participants.
And the question is, where are we today? Ten years after.
While this is a simple question, the answer is not always obvious from my point of view.
There are at least the three components of the historical process of evolution and political transition.
First of all, the relationship between old and the new regime.
Second, the building of democratic institutions and third, social movements since the time devoted to the presentation is short.
I would focus on the third issue, which is related to social movements.
And during the debate, I will come back, if you want to, the two other components.
So concerning social movements, we could say that young people are still mobilised as far as the objectives of the revolution,
which are, as you know, world freedom and dignity are not realise it yet.
They are demonstrating in the streets and public places.
Using social media. Of course. Ten years after the revolution, young people feel frustrated.
For having waited so long without any achievements.
So the revolutionary process is still continuing by following three parties or three main date actionis.
First of all, the path we could say, the path of the gym now.
Second, the path or the case, because they are start that studies case merkies of come out and the third is urban demonstration.
Let's begin with the gymnast, Jimena is this small village.
And also, in a way, is this located in the south of Tunisia, in the southwest of Tunisia.
There are social actors are involved in a battle on the right of the land.
And since 2011, they have occupied the ancient colonial domain.
Or farm. If you want colonial farm planted with parliament and producing dates, this farm belongs to the national state.
Of course, the challenge then is between the legality, the national state legality and the people democratic legitimacy.
In 2011, some people of Jemina created committee, a revolutionary committee.
But one year later, in 2012, they transformed the committee in an NGO association with NGO.
During 10 years, they are taking control of the domain and collectively self managing the land and its resources to the benefit
of the community of Jemena gymnast striving for dignity and collective identity is probably I do say probably.
So don't don't take it for granted. It's just to proof it is.
Maybe he's the only success story of the Tunisian revolution.
Second case is applicable for these pumping oil and gas station is located, as you know, in the extreme so far from that without C8 the miners.
In Kabul or around that car, more people have occupied the station.
And they formed a coordination committee representing eight localities of the governorate or the region of that.
They negotiated with the government and reached an agreement which had not been implemented.
The battle for sharing of wealth and social justice in income, or it is organised through an informal, structured in an informal organisation.
It seems to me that if that turns out to be a counter social movement.
Because it's more concerned with blocking the production.
And opposing the state line, promoting a constructive social project like Jim.
Finally. The urban protesters, the field of urban protests is both the poor district of Tunisian cities and the public,
places like it would give Avenue Kasbah and the public place of Lubar to.
In the poor district located in the periphery of the city's.
Protesters are related to the logical it having four major social actors out of school, youth people.
Meanwhile, the political actors in the public places are you educated at high school and universities.
They express through the revolutionary slogans the rejection of new political power.
They receive it as conservative and corrupted. What is remarkable is the missing link between the two about protest movements,
which are also not strongly connected to civil society, maybe labour union.
From that comes the weakness of social movements in Tunisia.
Post revolution. Thank you very much and welcome to your comments and remarks.
Thank you very much. I think it gives us a flavour of what we're going to meet in the book on Jemena.
That's coming out. That's a good foretaste as well. I mean, I thought that before I opened the floor.
But the screen, as it were, to discussion for everyone. I might put a couple of questions to both of you to see if you how you respond to it,
because it seemed the both of you in different ways had addressed it seemed to be a key question of the revolution,
which is how should one be a Tunisian citizen after revolution?
What are the possibilities of citizenship? What are the possibilities artistically?
And also in terms of, as I said, what role does art play in making people more aware of their rights to public space and elsewhere?
So I'd ask Heller a bit about do you think that art in Dream City,
in public space has, by moving into public space, has opened people's eyes to things?
Has it increased debate if you had a certain amount of resistance at the beginning?
Has it overcome it? So that would be one area.
And then for Mohammed, I think, again, one of the interesting questions is if you think that the conditions of citizenship.
That you described in Jemina had been made possible.
What do you think that makes it possible that that makes it quite troubling and difficult in other areas,
even in places where it's come close to it, like Cam or Cecchina or other areas of Tunisia?
So. Hello. Would you take up the question of the effect of art in public space, whether it's enlarged it, whether it's simply entrench divisions?
I think that art has played a major role in letting people be familiar with the public space.
Actually, just after the revolution, there were a lot of exhibitions, a lot of arts in the public space.
And in this time, like two, three years after the revolution, people were still not familiar with this form of art,
like dancing theatre in public space or even painting, et cetera.
And I said to people, but it was also the government that was not familiar with this ways of expression, you know.
And I remember you have to, Leah, what happened in Libya?
This time it was a huge exhibition and people came.
And this art is against revolution.
And we are artier as artists and eaters, et cetera.
And it set fire to the country, you know, and government at this time, which was composed by another by the militias.
Bartik. Agreed with these people, you know?
And we were like completely as artists, completely failed by these people.
And by the government. But fortunately, no, after this, people get used to to see artists in the streets.
Artists dancing, painting, etc. So I think.
I was always talking about living together.
You know, I think as artists, we are responsible also of making things happen, you know, and creating a link between us, our art.
But also people, people in public spaces. I'll ask her to do that.
I mean, it's it's a it's a good answer and it leads you to think of many other possibilities that come out of it as well.
That's exactly what we were after. Mohammed, I don't know whether you want to think a bit about the question of citizenship in your contexts.
Yeah. I think those issues, SCHIP ship is a process and there is not achieve.
It is continuing. And the case it has been interesting because they demonstrate is that there is both
a rupture with all the regime and the NSA to build a new regime at the local level.
And this is possible. Them, not the successor regime now is thinking doing them, which will could triple lift retouchers opposition.
First of all, the art of negotiation. They had a lot of negotiation with the government.
There is the coalition over the government. And that's a lot of negotiation.
Of all the ministers of the moment and there, is there a tradition of migration, not tradition of migration.
And this helps to link local and the global.
With national and global, of course, and the gymnast, you have also a tradition of knowledge, local knowledge.
There are many intellectuals, many militants which have great experience of politics.
That's it, very much that's I mean, it's it's interesting looking at the different combinations and how that exists in different places.
I think there are plenty of questions now coming from the floor. So I'd hand over to Michael to chair.
He's been watching them all. And then he will put them to you.
But thank you both very much indeed. Thank you very much, Charles.
Yes, we've got questions coming in. And just to let you know, if you would like to put a question to either one or both of the speakers tonight,
your you can type it into a Q and A bar that you'll see on your screen and it will come up if you want to be identified,
to put your name, if you'll be anonymous. That's absolutely fine.
And I'll try and get through as many of the questions as I can before the end of our session.
But the first question comes from Yusef Sharif.
Very nice to have you join us. Yousef.
He addressed these questions and Mohammed, or as he very correctly see Mohammed CARU and UCITS question is, and I quote,
We often mention the objectives of the revolution in quotation marks when describing the events of the last decade.
But who defined these objectives?
How can we establish objectives and demands which are organisational elements in a protest but has no formal organisation?
So, Mohammed. Very interesting question. And I'm not surprised because Yusuf is the clever man.
And the good friend who is following the current situation in Tunisia, who defined the objective.
This objective? There is no definition of objective.
It was defined by the slogan of the revolution. There is not formal definition, but the slogan, why not the slogan?
One of the main slogan of the revolution was work, liberty and dignity, national dignity.
Of course, this is ambiguous as a slogan.
But people deal with that ambiguous slogan during the revolutionary process.
There is no institutional definition of objectives of the revolution.
It's produced by a mass mobilisation research by the history of mobilisation and is still continuing.
Of course. Thank you very much indeed for that.
And this question goes to Hala. And this comes from Basra.
Good to see you, Askey. Thank you for joining us. And this case was intrigued by one statement that you made.
How long she'd like you to elaborate more on it, saying, can you elaborate more on the statement one dictator was replaced by?
I think you said 11 million dictators. It's something more about that I was intrigued by.
That's exactly what you meant by that as well. Yeah. Actually, during that news regime, no one could say anything.
No other low was low.
And even if we were waiting for more freedom or more freedom of speech or for more dignity or for more things like this, you know, we we stood quiet.
And then after the following of the regime, everyone would ask things you would never ask during,
been against that regime for himself without dealing with the expectations of other people.
You know, like this is Mike Street. You are not allowed to stand in my street.
This is my job. You are not allowed to come to my office or this is my company, you know.
And I want the best for my company. I don't care about yours.
So people were asking things for themselves without without caring about other people.
And this is why I said. That actually this is a work in process because this is about living together and dealing with our expectations.
But of course, with the expectations of other Tunisians. So it's a balance we have to find to be citizens.
And this is what at this time, I felt like one dictator was replaced by eleven eleven million of dictators.
So what you're saying actually. Thank you very much. That's a very interesting way of looking at it.
I like that a lot. Our next question is looking at the disconnect really between protest, the politics of protest and formal politics.
And it comes from Miriam La, wheaty American bases. Basically is saying that the youth are protesting its disappointment, but at the same time,
they're not participating in elections, resulting in what she calls the pathetic results that we all suffer.
Do you have any explanations for why that's the case? Maybe perhaps even say something about how that can be overcome, if at all possible.
Either one of you will be welcome to try that. Yeah, it's very pertinent.
It's very an important issue.
It's true that the youth people don't participate due to the election, but express their anger through demonstration is through till now.
They they did not participate. But we don't know in the future.
They could participate the next election.
We don't know exactly where is the direction of the youth people.
Thank you very much. Now, the next question actually comes from two people, we have a joint question from two.
Two good friends of the Middle East, Sentelle, Larissa Shiomi, Jack and Bobby Parks.
And they ask. When we think of a protest, the thousands of protests and social movements annually, especially after 2018,
in addition to such incredible experiences as Jemena, which you you were referring to Mohammed earlier.
Do you think that we can use the contentious experiences in Tunisia to think beyond
the economic determinism that so many academics attached to the study of protests?
In other words, what kind of politics is behind these diverse and many movements?
And they say, thank you for asking and thank you for your question. It's really about this economic determinism is can we move beyond the.
Someone absolutely I absolutely the case of him and other demonstrations show
us that we need to reflect that beyond the determinedly economic determinism,
because these movements are linked with collective identity,
not with only the economic level, as people think of it, as the intellectuals think back to the main issue is the collective identity of communities,
communities of young people, community of Jimar, community of more and so on.
We are now experiencing new ways of thinking and new ways of protesting.
I think. Thank you. Next question comes from Robin Kiely.
Thank you very much for joining us. Robin, I hope Robin won't mind me saying that.
Robin is a former British ambassador to Tunisia. And Robin's question is about the role of NGOs.
And he asks, how do you see the role of NGOs developing, given that the sector was quite developed,
albeit firmly controlled by the pouvoir before the revolution, a way of uninvolved and dynamiting society or a parallel government with other agendas?
So the role of NGOs stops. Hello. May be able to say something about this as well as Mohammed.
Yes, actually, defence of NGOs, for example,
and the field of human rights NGO is what we're able to play a major role in developing tools to improve human rights in Tunisia.
It depends. Actually, even even if I can, I can think of other than GEO's income, economic fears or et cetera.
It improves. It helps actually to to find some tools.
So to improve the skills. It hasn't replaced the role of governments.
I think it's a cooperation between government and NGO, but also between NGOs and civil society.
And I can't imagine a process without this cooperation.
How many did you want to add anything on that? Just an idea.
We could say that we have two kinds of civil society in Tunisia and then in the broader issue of forming civil society and an informal civil society.
The former civil society tracked by NGO has played a major role during the first year position.
Now we are facing a new informal civil society, which is very different from the other.
Let's say that the first two out became bourgeois bourgeois.
Civil society, I think is very important to observe and to analyse now.
And the demonstration in urban field and also in income come over and the Jemina outlook are linked to an informal civil society,
not formal civil society, except except the role of Usui today, which is complex.
Thank you very much. A question for Heller this time, and it's a question that I very heavy answer to as well.
From Dr. Karen Saïd, who is an anthropologist. And they ask.
I'm so curious about hostility towards the art project in which your team replaced pictures of banali with those of ordinary citizens.
What do you think this reveals about public media and the value of the parents in public space?
Advertisements are so common on Main Streets and metro stations in Tunis.
Do you think it was the more private placement of the portraits or something about their aesthetic styling that triggered the opposition?
Very interesting. Well, it's a simple question.
Thank you for asking. Actually, what triggered those reaction?
We couldn't say at this time because we arrived as an artist like Superman's, you know.
Yeah, we are replacing finally Bernardes portraits by a thousand self portraits of Tunisian unknown Tunisian people.
And on the contrary, people have not received this as a knowledge, but as an intrusion in their life, in their public space.
And if it was a blessing at the end, it was for me.
Lesson of humility. You know, because that teaches me that we have to deal with the public space as the people industry have to do with artists.
And before that, there were like a gap between artists and people in the street.
Thank you very much. Unfolding sort of en masse about the expression.
Another question for you, Hala, is from an anonymous pen.
That's perfectly fine in terms of you can leave your name or not and says you
said that freedom of speech has been the main change since the revolution.
That seems to have been, however, a recent increase in government crackdowns on bloggers and online commentators.
Is this something you are concerned about? Yes, of course.
We are all concerned here in Tunisia about the violation of the right of our rights to to speak freely online or through media cetera.
And, you know, in French, we have a I don't know how to translate, make a choice.
Would it translate? I see the natural of young girl.
These are like reflex, you know, of the old regime.
They are not familiar yet with freedom of speech.
So there is, of course, correct downs.
But on the other hand, when it happened, people denounce the censorship and through media or network, etc., we all denounce the censorship.
Q A question now from a Tunisian colleague here at Oxford.
A good friend and colleague at the centre,
Mohamed Salah Omari and Mohammed Salah welcomes you and thanked you for your succinct and suggestive interventions very much.
Mohamed, statis question is, both of you describe deep change at the level of practises that citizenship.
Is there not social back to sustain this change or is it temporary?
That's the both of you who would like to try it first, perhaps.
Mohammed, would you like to try? That's really a good question.
But really, I have no answer for this question.
It's not easy. We don't know exactly if it's in Desh or itself.
Should be official. We have doubt. It's nothing that but we have noticed.
Sociology want do know exactly the values of people and how they deal with power.
If they have the same attitude, the same representation of the power on.
If this representation is changing now, we don't know exactly, but it's a very interesting question from social science point of view.
Of course. You want to say something on that panel, and that's it.
I guess I said everything right. OK.
Thank you. And now somebody who would like to go back to one of the questions.
This is from Barney Porter. We know. Well, welcome, Bernie Shaw.
Very nice of you to join us. And just as I wondered where we could go back to the question of why young people are not participating in here.
Helus thoughts because of our experiences with working with young people in the Madina.
Your particular perspective from your experiences there? Yeah.
Hi, Vanessa. Glad you're here.
So, yes, I don't know where they are not participating, but maybe if I go back and I can tell you worse about this experience,
two or three or four years ago, I had the residency in the heart of Tunis, Madina of Choice with five young people.
And I followed them in their daily life.
Young people who were very representative of the youth in Tunisia, like all of them, are dreaming about legal migration, about leaving the country.
They were disappointed by politics in Tunisia. Very improved also by the social and economic situation in Tunisia.
And it was very interesting to work with them and to learn more about them,
because I felt like there's a really gap between youth in Tunisia and our politician.
And even as Hamad said, and even a part of the civil society in Tunisia, and even then, you know, they say that they are completely.
They they feel alone. You know, in front of the regime, in front of all of them was in front of all the other people in Tunis.
So, yes, this was a very interesting experience I had.
And I wish that people could talk more with with the youth continues and understand that expectation by people.
I mean politicians. Thank you.
Moving back to the subject of the social movements, particularly that Mohammed crew was talking about.
We have a question coming in Spain from Miguelito M&A.
Very good to see you, Miguel. Thank you for joining us. And may get lost.
Could you develop that the role of the Eugenie Te and its relationship would be social movements?
I think you did mention in passing there hasn't been a strong, particularly strong link.
But perhaps you can you can say a little bit more about that. Thank you.
The role of Russia today is very labour union is very important, is crucial in the Tunisian history.
And if we observe the attitude Abuja today towards the social movements,
they don't produce these sorts of moubayed if they own Gorazde social movement when they feel it's a legitimate demand of people.
And the role is very complex of Usui, the delusion that is the main organisation, the main NGO in civil society.
And the role of unity is between state and civil society.
It's that at the same time, an official organisation and also an organisation which I'll quote as a forum on civil society.
And it's very interesting to study 80. Thank you very much.
Next question is from a Tunisian student who is actually an ox, that man Zem, thank you for a contribution.
And a man asks is that while there has been praised, the Tunisian exceptionalism of Tunisia being an Arab anomaly,
as described in the title of a book by someone, al-Masri, I know not everybody agrees with his perspective on things.
Am I right to think, she asks, that there is an inherent paradox between Tunisia being an exception on one hand,
yet doomed to a vicious circle of socio economic and political issues?
And she says, I'm curious to know your thoughts on when we can start talking about the start at the end of a difficult situation back home.
Even one of you, I think, or perhaps Mohamed, you can start with that again.
The Tunisian exceptionalism is the myth produced by media and some intellectuals, and now is finish it.
It's over. Now, it's the beginning of the difficulties of the politics in Tunisia and the economic and the global.
At the global levels. Thank you.
Question coming in from Edward Oakden. Thanks so presentism, Edward asks.
Insofar as it is possible to generalise.
To what extent do you think that young people have a common vision of where they want the country to be in 10 years time?
And Edwards is the present ambassador in Tunisia. And say hello to everybody.
So basically, is there a common vision, you think, boy, is it possible to have a common vision amongst people?
I think that can go to both of you. I think it's hard to talk about confusion, you know, because everyone has its own vision for now.
And the challenge is to have this common vision to run the country and to set up priorities.
So, yes, as Mohammed said, this is the beginning of the difficulties and that we cannot resolve these difficulties without having a common vision.
And this is the most difficult thing to to have for the moment.
I don't know, Mohammed, what do you think of you know? We have another aspect with the is very important.
Now is the lack of leadership in Tunisia. This is a big issue in Tunisia today.
Do you think, though, I one often wonder if I may chip in myself.
Do you think the problem in Tunisia was you had too much leadership in the past on the bogy burned Ben Ali?
Is that part of the problem? If we compare the history of Tunisia with other countries, there was no much leadership.
There was a lack of leadership. After Bourguiba, we've been Ali, there is no leadership.
And also today, we have no leadership. I mean, national issue, national leadership.
There is no person who is able to express this leadership in the country today.
Actually, it's a story. This is a difference between leadership and dictatorship during but not with Banani and also Bourguiba,
where we're into like a dictatorship or one person who decides for all.
And this is not leadership, you know.
This is not the leadership we want for our country.
Now, after the revolution and of course, there's a lack of leadership and there is no common vision.
But maybe if politicians meet together and set up priorities, maybe at this time we could go forward with a country.
Thank you very much. We have time, I think we just one more question, unfortunately, I apologise to those who weren't.
I've got a question. This question comes from Paul Artz towards Mohammed.
And he again wants to become back on something that you say, describing Jemina as maybe the only success of the revolution.
Could you say something a little bit more about that? Yeah.
Now, it's the only success that we are not sure if there will be an agreement between the government and the government.
Has no time for. No time for a new p.c in the country.
So we don't know what will be the future of. Thank you very much.
So we're still waiting for the future, which seems like maybe a an appropriate note to end things on.
But thank you very much to both of you. I'll come back. Back to Charles and then Charles can head back to me.
See you, Charles. Well, thank you, Michael.
Thank you, really, I just want to thank both of you very much, as well as all those who put questions to you,
but really for giving us such a wonderful series of insights into the dilemmas facing Tunisians, Tunisian citizens and indeed Tunisian leadership.
And you can see why we were justified in calling this unfinished revolutions, because clearly there are like in all revolutions,
there are many processes at work and some people think they've achieved a success.
And other people clearly say there's too much to be done yet to claim success.
But I think you both managed to show in different.
But interestingly, complementary ways the successes, but also the challenges faced by many in Tunisia on all sorts of levels.
And the hope is that some of the recognition of those challenges will come together and not be seen as playing for a zero sum game in Tunisia itself.
But that's part of the challenge of citizenship itself, which I think you both illuminated.
So, Hala. Mohammed, thank you so much indeed for your contributions this evening.
Really outstanding. And we look forward to the exhibition at the British Museum, Hala.
And we look forward to the appearance of Jemina. There I see slugger's also looking forward to that very much indeed.
And I also want to thank Michael and the Middle East centre that's announcing it's for
hosting this evening and also for the unseen person who has made all this possible,
Stacey Chirchir, who really we want to thank for having set things up so brilliantly and make it all work so smoothly.
Michael, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Chazan. Thank you, Stacy, for running and setting all of this up.
And thank you very much, Charles and the producers, Tunisian society, for making this possible.
We want to work in partnership and its great organisation.
I can remember when joint organisations in Britain and Tunisia were rather different arrangements to go back more than 10 years.
And it's wonderful to have that cooperation. And Charles and the other members have been wonderful.
Thank you, Charles. And thank you again, Mohamed and Helen. Thank you for coming and spending time and coming in from Tunisia.
And we wish you well. And thank you very much. The session that ends this week.
And apologies again for those of you ask questions when they put them. Please do join us next week.
Send in the series when we've been doing a retrospective on the role of social media.
Ten years on from the Arab uprisings. But that's a very good evening to you.
Have a wonderful weekend. We look forward to seeing you. Thank you very much.