1 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,660 Good evening and welcome. My name's Michael Willis. 2 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:16,120 I'm one of the fellows here, Middle East Centre at St. Anthony's College at the University of Oxford. 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:21,580 And it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to the sixth seminar, this series in our series. 4 00:00:21,580 --> 00:00:28,600 We've been running every Friday evening, this term and literary term on the Arab uprisings 10. 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:34,750 And I'm very pleased to introduce this seminar, but we are running jointly with the British Tunisian society, 6 00:00:34,750 --> 00:00:38,710 which gives you an idea about the topic we'll be discussing this evening. 7 00:00:38,710 --> 00:00:45,550 But I'm very pleased that the with the support of the British Tunisian society that have really been crucial in putting this whole event to get them, 8 00:00:45,550 --> 00:00:53,380 are very grateful to the BTX and particularly grateful to the person who'll be chairing very involved in the British Tunisian society, 9 00:00:53,380 --> 00:00:58,660 somebody that is a good friend of the centre and somebody I'm sure many of you know very well. 10 00:00:58,660 --> 00:01:03,160 Professor Charles Triplette. So us, who will be introducing the seminar this evening. 11 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,770 Charles. Michael, thank you very much indeed. And thanks to St. Antony's for making it possible. 12 00:01:08,770 --> 00:01:12,910 I think what I should say first is something a bit about the British Tunisian society itself. 13 00:01:12,910 --> 00:01:18,970 Just to say that it was established or re-established in 2018 as a society meant to 14 00:01:18,970 --> 00:01:22,900 build on the friendship and understanding between Tunisia and the United Kingdom. 15 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:32,350 So connecting people in both countries with a common interest and with knowledge about each other's histories, cultures, societies and their politics. 16 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:35,260 And of course, that's what the contribution will be this evening. 17 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:41,200 So the panel this evening was intended or is intended to give us a chance to reflect on some of 18 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:48,520 the achievements of the past 10 years since the revolution and the overthrow of Ben Ali in 2011, 19 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:49,210 but also, of course, 20 00:01:49,210 --> 00:01:58,060 the unfinished business and the unrealised hopes that have marked Tunisia's trajectory since the revolutionary events of 2010 2011. 21 00:01:58,060 --> 00:02:03,280 Because like all revolutions, it's a longer process and some hopes have been disappointed. 22 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:12,950 Some have been fulfilled, and it's ready to reflect upon that, which we have asked our very distinguished two speakers to help us through. 23 00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:17,110 And I just want to introduce the two speakers before handing over to them. 24 00:02:17,110 --> 00:02:24,250 I want to introduce first Dr. Heller Amar, who is a professor of law at the University of Tunis, but also a visual artist. 25 00:02:24,250 --> 00:02:29,250 And one could say that her two roles were vividly demonstrated in 2011. 26 00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:40,150 First of all, with her participation in the art project autocracy inside out that use art to reclaim public spaces in Tunisia with the revolution, 27 00:02:40,150 --> 00:02:43,330 and secondly with our membership of the commission set up by the Tunisian 28 00:02:43,330 --> 00:02:48,460 government in 2011 to look into the conditions of prisons across the country, 29 00:02:48,460 --> 00:02:53,980 striking artworks have been exhibited and form part of collections in Tunisia and internationally. 30 00:02:53,980 --> 00:03:00,250 And if all goes well in the middle of May, you will see some of them exhibited in a new exhibition coming on at the British 31 00:03:00,250 --> 00:03:05,350 Museum called Reflections Contemporary Art from the Middle East and North Africa. 32 00:03:05,350 --> 00:03:11,860 When museums are allowed to reopen again and our other speaker equally distinguished in a different field. 33 00:03:11,860 --> 00:03:19,420 Professor Mohammed Keru is professor of political science at the University of Tunis, but also a member of The Better Hikma, 34 00:03:19,420 --> 00:03:27,370 the Tunisian Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, and a founding member of the Tunisian Observatory for Democratic Transition. 35 00:03:27,370 --> 00:03:37,420 He's published numerous articles and books, and most recently in 2018, local library saw the other revolution and just appeared, I think in Tunis. 36 00:03:37,420 --> 00:03:44,020 Jemina NYSE. Everybody saw the Jemina, the oasis of the revolution, which has just come out. 37 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:50,140 So before I turn to Dr. Hellam, our first I should say something about the format of the evening. 38 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:55,060 Our speakers will each have about 10 to 12 minutes to give us some of their reflections. 39 00:03:55,060 --> 00:04:00,220 I might then lead off with a couple of questions and open the floor, as it were. 40 00:04:00,220 --> 00:04:07,060 You can see it. I'm still in presume mentality. I still think there's a floor, but there isn't to open the floor for all of you. 41 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:11,950 For more general questions and discussion that will be chaired by Dr. Michael Willis. 42 00:04:11,950 --> 00:04:17,140 So I'm happy to turn over the floor or the screen to help. 43 00:04:17,140 --> 00:04:21,650 Please. Good evening. Thank you so much, Charles. 44 00:04:21,650 --> 00:04:26,900 I'm glad to be here with you today. Yes, actually, 45 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:33,530 evolution has opened the door to every possible and indeed we were able to do 46 00:04:33,530 --> 00:04:40,200 things until explored fears we never could explore during Bernanke's regime. 47 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:49,770 So to talk about the achievements and the changes that happened just after the revolution, I will take two examples. 48 00:04:49,770 --> 00:05:00,280 Actually, I would be speaking about two main projects that marked my career as an artist and that marked me also as a citizen. 49 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:07,720 The first one is visiting prisons and testifying about human rights in Tunisia. 50 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:18,040 A few weeks after the revolution, as you say, jobs, three national commissions were set up by the provisional government of this time. 51 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:30,090 And I was appointed as a member of one of them. That commission of enquiry on the abuses committed during the revolution. 52 00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:40,380 Our mission was basically to investigate all types of abuses such as death and bullet injuries, 53 00:05:40,380 --> 00:05:47,220 but also a mutiny in prisons and to determine the political responsibilities. 54 00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:53,790 So actually, this commission was the first tool of the transitional justice in Tunisia. 55 00:05:53,790 --> 00:05:58,860 And during one year we did, for example, as far as I'm concerned, 56 00:05:58,860 --> 00:06:08,040 I was in the subcommission of prisons and during good year, I visited prisons with three other members of this commission. 57 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:15,540 And this was the first time ever. Then civilians entered prisons before that time. 58 00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:22,170 So during this regime, it was only the Red Cross that was able to visit prisons. 59 00:06:22,170 --> 00:06:31,630 And there were reports. Right, confidential. So no one could know what was happening into prisons. 60 00:06:31,630 --> 00:06:36,550 Of course, we were aware that human rights were floating. 61 00:06:36,550 --> 00:06:45,160 Of course. But no one could imagine how bad the conditions of detentions were. 62 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:54,250 So after this, we were able for the first time to testify about the human rights violation in prisons. 63 00:06:54,250 --> 00:07:00,560 And one year after, so the report has been published and. 64 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,770 In the same time I was down myself, I have to do something about this. 65 00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:14,970 I have to testify not only as a member, as a jurist, as a member of this commission, but also as a citizen who has lived something, 66 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:26,070 something huge, you know, talking with with inmates, visiting prisons, exploring a field that I would never imagine exploring before. 67 00:07:26,070 --> 00:07:33,810 So there is still this festival of art in public spaces to music called the Dream City. 68 00:07:33,810 --> 00:07:42,600 And this year I choose to testify about what I lift into prison with with this commission. 69 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:49,740 And I showed Virk pictures I took. During a year in prison. 70 00:07:49,740 --> 00:08:00,150 And actually, I replenished the reason universe with the pictures and also testimonies of the prisoners. 71 00:08:00,150 --> 00:08:07,240 And it was it was really a great experience because of two things. 72 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,160 First, I think it was the first time, 73 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:17,620 and I think it will be the last one also because because unfortunately no one is able to take picture into prisons. 74 00:08:17,620 --> 00:08:25,390 So I think there would be only those one I took during this year. 75 00:08:25,390 --> 00:08:31,030 And the second reason because. You know, prison in Tunisia. 76 00:08:31,030 --> 00:08:36,520 It was taboo, like no one talk about prisons. 77 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:46,260 We had only few testimony from the prisoners under Bourguiba that logush Tunisian. 78 00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:54,550 So. So we didn't know what what was happening. What is didn't happen, you get there. 79 00:08:54,550 --> 00:08:59,530 So, yes, 10 years after visiting prison, what has changed? 80 00:08:59,530 --> 00:09:06,310 I think the conditions of detention hasn't said they haven't changed that much. 81 00:09:06,310 --> 00:09:13,340 Even if some reforms have been undertaken. 82 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:24,760 But still, you know, still more generally. Many steps have been made in terms of transitional justice, rehabilitation of victims and so on. 83 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,450 But still, the process is not finished yet. 84 00:09:29,450 --> 00:09:40,040 The second example is a second projec project was called off Tokarski InsideOut Beauchamp's initiated by French photographer. 85 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,820 And in March 2006 and eleven. 86 00:09:43,820 --> 00:09:53,810 And this project we replaced the portrait of an idea which was everywhere, you know, every street in every everywhere in Tunisia. 87 00:09:53,810 --> 00:10:01,030 So way we choose to embrace the portrait of Ben Ali by thousands of portraits of unknown Tunisians. 88 00:10:01,030 --> 00:10:10,610 The sum, the symbolic was strong. And we thought that it would be a beautiful homage to Tunisian people. 89 00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:19,340 But the funniest thing was that we were expecting such reactions from from people in the street. 90 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:31,250 We were passing the pictures that the portraits and in the same time, even the people who helped us to pass the pictures were ripping them apart. 91 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:42,350 It was completely unexpected and also we faced very hostile and violent reactions from from people in the street. 92 00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:49,430 Some of them were saying that we are unbelievers because you're a woman representation. 93 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:59,150 And so portraits are forbidden in Islam. Sullivan would say also that the portraits, black and white portraits are ugly. 94 00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:09,140 And instead, we should have bastad like coloured landscapes, bunde trees, some flowers, etc. 95 00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:21,260 Some of them also disagreed with putting strangers portraits of strangers in their walls, their streets, their neighbourhood. 96 00:11:21,260 --> 00:11:29,110 And instead, we have and they were saying instead you have you should have posted the virtues of myself. 97 00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:35,270 I'm not. I was well known in my in my country or or in my in my neighbourhood. 98 00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:46,240 Sorry. Or in my street. Actually, as I said, you know, the reaction were completely unexpected and hard to understand. 99 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:55,990 But if we look deeper into them, we can see what has changed since the fall of the regime. 100 00:11:55,990 --> 00:12:04,600 And this also could explain what happened later and what we are still experiencing now. 101 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,810 First of all, we heard the first for the first time, 102 00:12:07,810 --> 00:12:20,380 the first the voices of Salafism or at least of conservative people who would put religion above all freedoms. 103 00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:26,260 Also, these reactions also shows how much people were and still are. 104 00:12:26,260 --> 00:12:30,400 I'm familiar with art in public space. 105 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:40,780 Maybe also I'm familiar with the concept of public space, with the concept of living and doing together in a public space. 106 00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:49,390 And this is pretty normal. You know. After more than 20 years of dictatorship. 107 00:12:49,390 --> 00:13:00,090 Interact, everyone was appropriating this this public space, a public space that never could freely used before. 108 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:12,450 Another thing is that I think the most important thing that all of them, all us, even as artists or a citizen, we're experimenting. 109 00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:18,020 We were experimenting. A very new freedom of speech. 110 00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:29,390 Even if that seemed to me you'd like one dictator at this time to have one dictator, it has been has been replaced by eleven million dictators. 111 00:13:29,390 --> 00:13:32,930 So that was yeah, that was the feeling I had this time. 112 00:13:32,930 --> 00:13:40,180 And maybe sometimes even now, you know, with all the demonstrations across the country. 113 00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:45,370 So, yes, if I want to summarise, I think I reached my time. 114 00:13:45,370 --> 00:13:50,680 I'd say that the major change that has lasted is a freedom of speech. 115 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:58,450 Today, we have the right, but also the power to speak out to contest and to denounce. 116 00:13:58,450 --> 00:14:08,920 This is, of course, a huge achievement. But some would say that 10 years after the revolution, this is not enough. 117 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:19,010 And we're still expecting more significant changes that would make Tunisia a real democratic country. 118 00:14:19,010 --> 00:14:22,000 Thank you very much. Really interesting and thank you so much. 119 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:30,200 Also keeping to your time schedule in a very good way and then giving us a lot of things to think about, which we'll come back to in the questions. 120 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:41,010 But now I'd like to turn to Mohammed Mohammed Keru to give his reflections from slightly different perspective, possibly of the last 10 years. 121 00:14:41,010 --> 00:14:46,740 Good evening. I am very happy to take part to the webinar. 122 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:51,600 Thank you all very much to all the organisers and participants. 123 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:57,680 And the question is, where are we today? Ten years after. 124 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:06,230 While this is a simple question, the answer is not always obvious from my point of view. 125 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:14,810 There are at least the three components of the historical process of evolution and political transition. 126 00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:20,000 First of all, the relationship between old and the new regime. 127 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:30,200 Second, the building of democratic institutions and third, social movements since the time devoted to the presentation is short. 128 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,720 I would focus on the third issue, which is related to social movements. 129 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:42,270 And during the debate, I will come back, if you want to, the two other components. 130 00:15:42,270 --> 00:15:53,460 So concerning social movements, we could say that young people are still mobilised as far as the objectives of the revolution, 131 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:58,950 which are, as you know, world freedom and dignity are not realise it yet. 132 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:04,120 They are demonstrating in the streets and public places. 133 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:13,030 Using social media. Of course. Ten years after the revolution, young people feel frustrated. 134 00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:18,100 For having waited so long without any achievements. 135 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:28,530 So the revolutionary process is still continuing by following three parties or three main date actionis. 136 00:16:28,530 --> 00:16:33,210 First of all, the path we could say, the path of the gym now. 137 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:46,870 Second, the path or the case, because they are start that studies case merkies of come out and the third is urban demonstration. 138 00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:51,340 Let's begin with the gymnast, Jimena is this small village. 139 00:16:51,340 --> 00:16:57,790 And also, in a way, is this located in the south of Tunisia, in the southwest of Tunisia. 140 00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:03,740 There are social actors are involved in a battle on the right of the land. 141 00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:10,990 And since 2011, they have occupied the ancient colonial domain. 142 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:21,950 Or farm. If you want colonial farm planted with parliament and producing dates, this farm belongs to the national state. 143 00:17:21,950 --> 00:17:33,830 Of course, the challenge then is between the legality, the national state legality and the people democratic legitimacy. 144 00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:41,510 In 2011, some people of Jemina created committee, a revolutionary committee. 145 00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:53,910 But one year later, in 2012, they transformed the committee in an NGO association with NGO. 146 00:17:53,910 --> 00:18:03,900 During 10 years, they are taking control of the domain and collectively self managing the land and its resources to the benefit 147 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:14,490 of the community of Jemena gymnast striving for dignity and collective identity is probably I do say probably. 148 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:20,820 So don't don't take it for granted. It's just to proof it is. 149 00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:27,690 Maybe he's the only success story of the Tunisian revolution. 150 00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:42,040 Second case is applicable for these pumping oil and gas station is located, as you know, in the extreme so far from that without C8 the miners. 151 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,950 In Kabul or around that car, more people have occupied the station. 152 00:18:47,950 --> 00:18:56,930 And they formed a coordination committee representing eight localities of the governorate or the region of that. 153 00:18:56,930 --> 00:19:04,460 They negotiated with the government and reached an agreement which had not been implemented. 154 00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:16,280 The battle for sharing of wealth and social justice in income, or it is organised through an informal, structured in an informal organisation. 155 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:22,470 It seems to me that if that turns out to be a counter social movement. 156 00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:27,650 Because it's more concerned with blocking the production. 157 00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:35,460 And opposing the state line, promoting a constructive social project like Jim. 158 00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:44,900 Finally. The urban protesters, the field of urban protests is both the poor district of Tunisian cities and the public, 159 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:52,780 places like it would give Avenue Kasbah and the public place of Lubar to. 160 00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:57,520 In the poor district located in the periphery of the city's. 161 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:07,040 Protesters are related to the logical it having four major social actors out of school, youth people. 162 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:15,560 Meanwhile, the political actors in the public places are you educated at high school and universities. 163 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:22,330 They express through the revolutionary slogans the rejection of new political power. 164 00:20:22,330 --> 00:20:33,850 They receive it as conservative and corrupted. What is remarkable is the missing link between the two about protest movements, 165 00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:41,000 which are also not strongly connected to civil society, maybe labour union. 166 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,950 From that comes the weakness of social movements in Tunisia. 167 00:20:45,950 --> 00:20:52,510 Post revolution. Thank you very much and welcome to your comments and remarks. 168 00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:57,700 Thank you very much. I think it gives us a flavour of what we're going to meet in the book on Jemena. 169 00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:04,120 That's coming out. That's a good foretaste as well. I mean, I thought that before I opened the floor. 170 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:12,640 But the screen, as it were, to discussion for everyone. I might put a couple of questions to both of you to see if you how you respond to it, 171 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:19,720 because it seemed the both of you in different ways had addressed it seemed to be a key question of the revolution, 172 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,270 which is how should one be a Tunisian citizen after revolution? 173 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:29,440 What are the possibilities of citizenship? What are the possibilities artistically? 174 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:38,020 And also in terms of, as I said, what role does art play in making people more aware of their rights to public space and elsewhere? 175 00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:43,330 So I'd ask Heller a bit about do you think that art in Dream City, 176 00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:49,990 in public space has, by moving into public space, has opened people's eyes to things? 177 00:21:49,990 --> 00:21:54,400 Has it increased debate if you had a certain amount of resistance at the beginning? 178 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,950 Has it overcome it? So that would be one area. 179 00:21:56,950 --> 00:22:06,260 And then for Mohammed, I think, again, one of the interesting questions is if you think that the conditions of citizenship. 180 00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:09,140 That you described in Jemina had been made possible. 181 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:14,360 What do you think that makes it possible that that makes it quite troubling and difficult in other areas, 182 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:20,000 even in places where it's come close to it, like Cam or Cecchina or other areas of Tunisia? 183 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:30,390 So. Hello. Would you take up the question of the effect of art in public space, whether it's enlarged it, whether it's simply entrench divisions? 184 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:39,090 I think that art has played a major role in letting people be familiar with the public space. 185 00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:47,160 Actually, just after the revolution, there were a lot of exhibitions, a lot of arts in the public space. 186 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:55,320 And in this time, like two, three years after the revolution, people were still not familiar with this form of art, 187 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,990 like dancing theatre in public space or even painting, et cetera. 188 00:23:00,990 --> 00:23:11,700 And I said to people, but it was also the government that was not familiar with this ways of expression, you know. 189 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:16,410 And I remember you have to, Leah, what happened in Libya? 190 00:23:16,410 --> 00:23:21,330 This time it was a huge exhibition and people came. 191 00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:25,770 And this art is against revolution. 192 00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:29,400 And we are artier as artists and eaters, et cetera. 193 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:38,600 And it set fire to the country, you know, and government at this time, which was composed by another by the militias. 194 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,270 Bartik. Agreed with these people, you know? 195 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:50,410 And we were like completely as artists, completely failed by these people. 196 00:23:50,410 --> 00:24:01,790 And by the government. But fortunately, no, after this, people get used to to see artists in the streets. 197 00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:07,520 Artists dancing, painting, etc. So I think. 198 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,280 I was always talking about living together. 199 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:23,000 You know, I think as artists, we are responsible also of making things happen, you know, and creating a link between us, our art. 200 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:30,960 But also people, people in public spaces. I'll ask her to do that. 201 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,540 I mean, it's it's a it's a good answer and it leads you to think of many other possibilities that come out of it as well. 202 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:44,090 That's exactly what we were after. Mohammed, I don't know whether you want to think a bit about the question of citizenship in your contexts. 203 00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:50,250 Yeah. I think those issues, SCHIP ship is a process and there is not achieve. 204 00:24:50,250 --> 00:25:01,860 It is continuing. And the case it has been interesting because they demonstrate is that there is both 205 00:25:01,860 --> 00:25:11,220 a rupture with all the regime and the NSA to build a new regime at the local level. 206 00:25:11,220 --> 00:25:23,190 And this is possible. Them, not the successor regime now is thinking doing them, which will could triple lift retouchers opposition. 207 00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:30,260 First of all, the art of negotiation. They had a lot of negotiation with the government. 208 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:34,760 There is the coalition over the government. And that's a lot of negotiation. 209 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:44,130 Of all the ministers of the moment and there, is there a tradition of migration, not tradition of migration. 210 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:49,190 And this helps to link local and the global. 211 00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:57,470 With national and global, of course, and the gymnast, you have also a tradition of knowledge, local knowledge. 212 00:25:57,470 --> 00:26:04,890 There are many intellectuals, many militants which have great experience of politics. 213 00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:10,450 That's it, very much that's I mean, it's it's interesting looking at the different combinations and how that exists in different places. 214 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:15,910 I think there are plenty of questions now coming from the floor. So I'd hand over to Michael to chair. 215 00:26:15,910 --> 00:26:19,170 He's been watching them all. And then he will put them to you. 216 00:26:19,170 --> 00:26:23,230 But thank you both very much indeed. Thank you very much, Charles. 217 00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:31,450 Yes, we've got questions coming in. And just to let you know, if you would like to put a question to either one or both of the speakers tonight, 218 00:26:31,450 --> 00:26:38,260 your you can type it into a Q and A bar that you'll see on your screen and it will come up if you want to be identified, 219 00:26:38,260 --> 00:26:41,530 to put your name, if you'll be anonymous. That's absolutely fine. 220 00:26:41,530 --> 00:26:46,630 And I'll try and get through as many of the questions as I can before the end of our session. 221 00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:50,740 But the first question comes from Yusef Sharif. 222 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:52,900 Very nice to have you join us. Yousef. 223 00:26:52,900 --> 00:27:00,790 He addressed these questions and Mohammed, or as he very correctly see Mohammed CARU and UCITS question is, and I quote, 224 00:27:00,790 --> 00:27:09,070 We often mention the objectives of the revolution in quotation marks when describing the events of the last decade. 225 00:27:09,070 --> 00:27:12,100 But who defined these objectives? 226 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:21,010 How can we establish objectives and demands which are organisational elements in a protest but has no formal organisation? 227 00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:29,060 So, Mohammed. Very interesting question. And I'm not surprised because Yusuf is the clever man. 228 00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:37,250 And the good friend who is following the current situation in Tunisia, who defined the objective. 229 00:27:37,250 --> 00:27:41,330 This objective? There is no definition of objective. 230 00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:50,360 It was defined by the slogan of the revolution. There is not formal definition, but the slogan, why not the slogan? 231 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:57,680 One of the main slogan of the revolution was work, liberty and dignity, national dignity. 232 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,360 Of course, this is ambiguous as a slogan. 233 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:08,330 But people deal with that ambiguous slogan during the revolutionary process. 234 00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:14,370 There is no institutional definition of objectives of the revolution. 235 00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:22,710 It's produced by a mass mobilisation research by the history of mobilisation and is still continuing. 236 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:27,120 Of course. Thank you very much indeed for that. 237 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:32,100 And this question goes to Hala. And this comes from Basra. 238 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:39,000 Good to see you, Askey. Thank you for joining us. And this case was intrigued by one statement that you made. 239 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:46,650 How long she'd like you to elaborate more on it, saying, can you elaborate more on the statement one dictator was replaced by? 240 00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:51,660 I think you said 11 million dictators. It's something more about that I was intrigued by. 241 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:59,930 That's exactly what you meant by that as well. Yeah. Actually, during that news regime, no one could say anything. 242 00:28:59,930 --> 00:29:01,890 No other low was low. 243 00:29:01,890 --> 00:29:18,210 And even if we were waiting for more freedom or more freedom of speech or for more dignity or for more things like this, you know, we we stood quiet. 244 00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:26,660 And then after the following of the regime, everyone would ask things you would never ask during, 245 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:34,140 been against that regime for himself without dealing with the expectations of other people. 246 00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:41,460 You know, like this is Mike Street. You are not allowed to stand in my street. 247 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:49,050 This is my job. You are not allowed to come to my office or this is my company, you know. 248 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:53,310 And I want the best for my company. I don't care about yours. 249 00:29:53,310 --> 00:29:59,970 So people were asking things for themselves without without caring about other people. 250 00:29:59,970 --> 00:30:12,380 And this is why I said. That actually this is a work in process because this is about living together and dealing with our expectations. 251 00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:22,630 But of course, with the expectations of other Tunisians. So it's a balance we have to find to be citizens. 252 00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:32,380 And this is what at this time, I felt like one dictator was replaced by eleven eleven million of dictators. 253 00:30:32,380 --> 00:30:37,440 So what you're saying actually. Thank you very much. That's a very interesting way of looking at it. 254 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:48,000 I like that a lot. Our next question is looking at the disconnect really between protest, the politics of protest and formal politics. 255 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,810 And it comes from Miriam La, wheaty American bases. Basically is saying that the youth are protesting its disappointment, but at the same time, 256 00:30:55,810 --> 00:31:02,970 they're not participating in elections, resulting in what she calls the pathetic results that we all suffer. 257 00:31:02,970 --> 00:31:11,240 Do you have any explanations for why that's the case? Maybe perhaps even say something about how that can be overcome, if at all possible. 258 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,010 Either one of you will be welcome to try that. Yeah, it's very pertinent. 259 00:31:16,010 --> 00:31:18,260 It's very an important issue. 260 00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:31,650 It's true that the youth people don't participate due to the election, but express their anger through demonstration is through till now. 261 00:31:31,650 --> 00:31:36,530 They they did not participate. But we don't know in the future. 262 00:31:36,530 --> 00:31:40,130 They could participate the next election. 263 00:31:40,130 --> 00:31:47,570 We don't know exactly where is the direction of the youth people. 264 00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:52,730 Thank you very much. Now, the next question actually comes from two people, we have a joint question from two. 265 00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:57,590 Two good friends of the Middle East, Sentelle, Larissa Shiomi, Jack and Bobby Parks. 266 00:31:57,590 --> 00:32:06,110 And they ask. When we think of a protest, the thousands of protests and social movements annually, especially after 2018, 267 00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:11,420 in addition to such incredible experiences as Jemena, which you you were referring to Mohammed earlier. 268 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:16,550 Do you think that we can use the contentious experiences in Tunisia to think beyond 269 00:32:16,550 --> 00:32:22,970 the economic determinism that so many academics attached to the study of protests? 270 00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:27,980 In other words, what kind of politics is behind these diverse and many movements? 271 00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:35,660 And they say, thank you for asking and thank you for your question. It's really about this economic determinism is can we move beyond the. 272 00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:42,100 Someone absolutely I absolutely the case of him and other demonstrations show 273 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:47,820 us that we need to reflect that beyond the determinedly economic determinism, 274 00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:52,900 because these movements are linked with collective identity, 275 00:32:52,900 --> 00:33:06,400 not with only the economic level, as people think of it, as the intellectuals think back to the main issue is the collective identity of communities, 276 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,750 communities of young people, community of Jimar, community of more and so on. 277 00:33:10,750 --> 00:33:18,550 We are now experiencing new ways of thinking and new ways of protesting. 278 00:33:18,550 --> 00:33:23,680 I think. Thank you. Next question comes from Robin Kiely. 279 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,670 Thank you very much for joining us. Robin, I hope Robin won't mind me saying that. 280 00:33:27,670 --> 00:33:33,280 Robin is a former British ambassador to Tunisia. And Robin's question is about the role of NGOs. 281 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,730 And he asks, how do you see the role of NGOs developing, given that the sector was quite developed, 282 00:33:39,730 --> 00:33:49,870 albeit firmly controlled by the pouvoir before the revolution, a way of uninvolved and dynamiting society or a parallel government with other agendas? 283 00:33:49,870 --> 00:33:56,590 So the role of NGOs stops. Hello. May be able to say something about this as well as Mohammed. 284 00:33:56,590 --> 00:34:01,630 Yes, actually, defence of NGOs, for example, 285 00:34:01,630 --> 00:34:13,530 and the field of human rights NGO is what we're able to play a major role in developing tools to improve human rights in Tunisia. 286 00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:23,190 It depends. Actually, even even if I can, I can think of other than GEO's income, economic fears or et cetera. 287 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:27,630 It improves. It helps actually to to find some tools. 288 00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:34,080 So to improve the skills. It hasn't replaced the role of governments. 289 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:42,420 I think it's a cooperation between government and NGO, but also between NGOs and civil society. 290 00:34:42,420 --> 00:34:49,330 And I can't imagine a process without this cooperation. 291 00:34:49,330 --> 00:34:54,090 How many did you want to add anything on that? Just an idea. 292 00:34:54,090 --> 00:35:07,020 We could say that we have two kinds of civil society in Tunisia and then in the broader issue of forming civil society and an informal civil society. 293 00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:16,200 The former civil society tracked by NGO has played a major role during the first year position. 294 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:25,290 Now we are facing a new informal civil society, which is very different from the other. 295 00:35:25,290 --> 00:35:30,490 Let's say that the first two out became bourgeois bourgeois. 296 00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:35,670 Civil society, I think is very important to observe and to analyse now. 297 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:45,210 And the demonstration in urban field and also in income come over and the Jemina outlook are linked to an informal civil society, 298 00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:54,990 not formal civil society, except except the role of Usui today, which is complex. 299 00:35:54,990 --> 00:36:03,120 Thank you very much. A question for Heller this time, and it's a question that I very heavy answer to as well. 300 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,130 From Dr. Karen Saïd, who is an anthropologist. And they ask. 301 00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:16,410 I'm so curious about hostility towards the art project in which your team replaced pictures of banali with those of ordinary citizens. 302 00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:22,650 What do you think this reveals about public media and the value of the parents in public space? 303 00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:26,670 Advertisements are so common on Main Streets and metro stations in Tunis. 304 00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:34,770 Do you think it was the more private placement of the portraits or something about their aesthetic styling that triggered the opposition? 305 00:36:34,770 --> 00:36:38,600 Very interesting. Well, it's a simple question. 306 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:45,270 Thank you for asking. Actually, what triggered those reaction? 307 00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:53,510 We couldn't say at this time because we arrived as an artist like Superman's, you know. 308 00:36:53,510 --> 00:37:03,860 Yeah, we are replacing finally Bernardes portraits by a thousand self portraits of Tunisian unknown Tunisian people. 309 00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:17,240 And on the contrary, people have not received this as a knowledge, but as an intrusion in their life, in their public space. 310 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:21,140 And if it was a blessing at the end, it was for me. 311 00:37:21,140 --> 00:37:35,570 Lesson of humility. You know, because that teaches me that we have to deal with the public space as the people industry have to do with artists. 312 00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:43,560 And before that, there were like a gap between artists and people in the street. 313 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,970 Thank you very much. Unfolding sort of en masse about the expression. 314 00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:52,050 Another question for you, Hala, is from an anonymous pen. 315 00:37:52,050 --> 00:37:57,360 That's perfectly fine in terms of you can leave your name or not and says you 316 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,770 said that freedom of speech has been the main change since the revolution. 317 00:38:01,770 --> 00:38:08,820 That seems to have been, however, a recent increase in government crackdowns on bloggers and online commentators. 318 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:12,540 Is this something you are concerned about? Yes, of course. 319 00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:24,300 We are all concerned here in Tunisia about the violation of the right of our rights to to speak freely online or through media cetera. 320 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:28,860 And, you know, in French, we have a I don't know how to translate, make a choice. 321 00:38:28,860 --> 00:38:34,040 Would it translate? I see the natural of young girl. 322 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:39,470 These are like reflex, you know, of the old regime. 323 00:38:39,470 --> 00:38:43,670 They are not familiar yet with freedom of speech. 324 00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:46,820 So there is, of course, correct downs. 325 00:38:46,820 --> 00:38:58,520 But on the other hand, when it happened, people denounce the censorship and through media or network, etc., we all denounce the censorship. 326 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,650 Q A question now from a Tunisian colleague here at Oxford. 327 00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:05,700 A good friend and colleague at the centre, 328 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:14,240 Mohamed Salah Omari and Mohammed Salah welcomes you and thanked you for your succinct and suggestive interventions very much. 329 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:21,740 Mohamed, statis question is, both of you describe deep change at the level of practises that citizenship. 330 00:39:21,740 --> 00:39:28,190 Is there not social back to sustain this change or is it temporary? 331 00:39:28,190 --> 00:39:31,670 That's the both of you who would like to try it first, perhaps. 332 00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:35,510 Mohammed, would you like to try? That's really a good question. 333 00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:39,260 But really, I have no answer for this question. 334 00:39:39,260 --> 00:39:46,400 It's not easy. We don't know exactly if it's in Desh or itself. 335 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,620 Should be official. We have doubt. It's nothing that but we have noticed. 336 00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:59,680 Sociology want do know exactly the values of people and how they deal with power. 337 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:06,250 If they have the same attitude, the same representation of the power on. 338 00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:16,300 If this representation is changing now, we don't know exactly, but it's a very interesting question from social science point of view. 339 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:22,400 Of course. You want to say something on that panel, and that's it. 340 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,740 I guess I said everything right. OK. 341 00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:29,700 Thank you. And now somebody who would like to go back to one of the questions. 342 00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:32,910 This is from Barney Porter. We know. Well, welcome, Bernie Shaw. 343 00:40:32,910 --> 00:40:41,120 Very nice of you to join us. And just as I wondered where we could go back to the question of why young people are not participating in here. 344 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:47,280 Helus thoughts because of our experiences with working with young people in the Madina. 345 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,680 Your particular perspective from your experiences there? Yeah. 346 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,290 Hi, Vanessa. Glad you're here. 347 00:40:56,290 --> 00:41:04,960 So, yes, I don't know where they are not participating, but maybe if I go back and I can tell you worse about this experience, 348 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:15,820 two or three or four years ago, I had the residency in the heart of Tunis, Madina of Choice with five young people. 349 00:41:15,820 --> 00:41:20,200 And I followed them in their daily life. 350 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:31,510 Young people who were very representative of the youth in Tunisia, like all of them, are dreaming about legal migration, about leaving the country. 351 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:42,760 They were disappointed by politics in Tunisia. Very improved also by the social and economic situation in Tunisia. 352 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:48,670 And it was very interesting to work with them and to learn more about them, 353 00:41:48,670 --> 00:41:57,700 because I felt like there's a really gap between youth in Tunisia and our politician. 354 00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:11,630 And even as Hamad said, and even a part of the civil society in Tunisia, and even then, you know, they say that they are completely. 355 00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:22,810 They they feel alone. You know, in front of the regime, in front of all of them was in front of all the other people in Tunis. 356 00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:27,130 So, yes, this was a very interesting experience I had. 357 00:42:27,130 --> 00:42:37,060 And I wish that people could talk more with with the youth continues and understand that expectation by people. 358 00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:41,330 I mean politicians. Thank you. 359 00:42:41,330 --> 00:42:47,000 Moving back to the subject of the social movements, particularly that Mohammed crew was talking about. 360 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,930 We have a question coming in Spain from Miguelito M&A. 361 00:42:50,930 --> 00:42:55,460 Very good to see you, Miguel. Thank you for joining us. And may get lost. 362 00:42:55,460 --> 00:43:01,550 Could you develop that the role of the Eugenie Te and its relationship would be social movements? 363 00:43:01,550 --> 00:43:05,510 I think you did mention in passing there hasn't been a strong, particularly strong link. 364 00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:10,750 But perhaps you can you can say a little bit more about that. Thank you. 365 00:43:10,750 --> 00:43:19,390 The role of Russia today is very labour union is very important, is crucial in the Tunisian history. 366 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:26,920 And if we observe the attitude Abuja today towards the social movements, 367 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:38,830 they don't produce these sorts of moubayed if they own Gorazde social movement when they feel it's a legitimate demand of people. 368 00:43:38,830 --> 00:43:47,830 And the role is very complex of Usui, the delusion that is the main organisation, the main NGO in civil society. 369 00:43:47,830 --> 00:43:53,600 And the role of unity is between state and civil society. 370 00:43:53,600 --> 00:44:05,810 It's that at the same time, an official organisation and also an organisation which I'll quote as a forum on civil society. 371 00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:09,980 And it's very interesting to study 80. Thank you very much. 372 00:44:09,980 --> 00:44:16,790 Next question is from a Tunisian student who is actually an ox, that man Zem, thank you for a contribution. 373 00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:25,580 And a man asks is that while there has been praised, the Tunisian exceptionalism of Tunisia being an Arab anomaly, 374 00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:32,350 as described in the title of a book by someone, al-Masri, I know not everybody agrees with his perspective on things. 375 00:44:32,350 --> 00:44:39,230 Am I right to think, she asks, that there is an inherent paradox between Tunisia being an exception on one hand, 376 00:44:39,230 --> 00:44:44,090 yet doomed to a vicious circle of socio economic and political issues? 377 00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:52,630 And she says, I'm curious to know your thoughts on when we can start talking about the start at the end of a difficult situation back home. 378 00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:56,890 Even one of you, I think, or perhaps Mohamed, you can start with that again. 379 00:44:56,890 --> 00:45:05,180 The Tunisian exceptionalism is the myth produced by media and some intellectuals, and now is finish it. 380 00:45:05,180 --> 00:45:14,780 It's over. Now, it's the beginning of the difficulties of the politics in Tunisia and the economic and the global. 381 00:45:14,780 --> 00:45:18,380 At the global levels. Thank you. 382 00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:23,470 Question coming in from Edward Oakden. Thanks so presentism, Edward asks. 383 00:45:23,470 --> 00:45:26,240 Insofar as it is possible to generalise. 384 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:33,810 To what extent do you think that young people have a common vision of where they want the country to be in 10 years time? 385 00:45:33,810 --> 00:45:40,730 And Edwards is the present ambassador in Tunisia. And say hello to everybody. 386 00:45:40,730 --> 00:45:45,740 So basically, is there a common vision, you think, boy, is it possible to have a common vision amongst people? 387 00:45:45,740 --> 00:45:55,510 I think that can go to both of you. I think it's hard to talk about confusion, you know, because everyone has its own vision for now. 388 00:45:55,510 --> 00:46:02,830 And the challenge is to have this common vision to run the country and to set up priorities. 389 00:46:02,830 --> 00:46:13,000 So, yes, as Mohammed said, this is the beginning of the difficulties and that we cannot resolve these difficulties without having a common vision. 390 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,080 And this is the most difficult thing to to have for the moment. 391 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:24,810 I don't know, Mohammed, what do you think of you know? We have another aspect with the is very important. 392 00:46:24,810 --> 00:46:34,580 Now is the lack of leadership in Tunisia. This is a big issue in Tunisia today. 393 00:46:34,580 --> 00:46:38,930 Do you think, though, I one often wonder if I may chip in myself. 394 00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:43,610 Do you think the problem in Tunisia was you had too much leadership in the past on the bogy burned Ben Ali? 395 00:46:43,610 --> 00:46:53,060 Is that part of the problem? If we compare the history of Tunisia with other countries, there was no much leadership. 396 00:46:53,060 --> 00:46:58,430 There was a lack of leadership. After Bourguiba, we've been Ali, there is no leadership. 397 00:46:58,430 --> 00:47:06,060 And also today, we have no leadership. I mean, national issue, national leadership. 398 00:47:06,060 --> 00:47:13,580 There is no person who is able to express this leadership in the country today. 399 00:47:13,580 --> 00:47:23,180 Actually, it's a story. This is a difference between leadership and dictatorship during but not with Banani and also Bourguiba, 400 00:47:23,180 --> 00:47:29,550 where we're into like a dictatorship or one person who decides for all. 401 00:47:29,550 --> 00:47:33,180 And this is not leadership, you know. 402 00:47:33,180 --> 00:47:36,570 This is not the leadership we want for our country. 403 00:47:36,570 --> 00:47:44,460 Now, after the revolution and of course, there's a lack of leadership and there is no common vision. 404 00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:56,190 But maybe if politicians meet together and set up priorities, maybe at this time we could go forward with a country. 405 00:47:56,190 --> 00:48:00,930 Thank you very much. We have time, I think we just one more question, unfortunately, I apologise to those who weren't. 406 00:48:00,930 --> 00:48:05,670 I've got a question. This question comes from Paul Artz towards Mohammed. 407 00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:12,640 And he again wants to become back on something that you say, describing Jemina as maybe the only success of the revolution. 408 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,140 Could you say something a little bit more about that? Yeah. 409 00:48:17,140 --> 00:48:27,120 Now, it's the only success that we are not sure if there will be an agreement between the government and the government. 410 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:33,420 Has no time for. No time for a new p.c in the country. 411 00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:38,820 So we don't know what will be the future of. Thank you very much. 412 00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:44,560 So we're still waiting for the future, which seems like maybe a an appropriate note to end things on. 413 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:51,230 But thank you very much to both of you. I'll come back. Back to Charles and then Charles can head back to me. 414 00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:53,950 See you, Charles. Well, thank you, Michael. 415 00:48:53,950 --> 00:48:59,190 Thank you, really, I just want to thank both of you very much, as well as all those who put questions to you, 416 00:48:59,190 --> 00:49:09,300 but really for giving us such a wonderful series of insights into the dilemmas facing Tunisians, Tunisian citizens and indeed Tunisian leadership. 417 00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:17,100 And you can see why we were justified in calling this unfinished revolutions, because clearly there are like in all revolutions, 418 00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:21,180 there are many processes at work and some people think they've achieved a success. 419 00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:25,940 And other people clearly say there's too much to be done yet to claim success. 420 00:49:25,940 --> 00:49:28,860 But I think you both managed to show in different. 421 00:49:28,860 --> 00:49:39,420 But interestingly, complementary ways the successes, but also the challenges faced by many in Tunisia on all sorts of levels. 422 00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:48,300 And the hope is that some of the recognition of those challenges will come together and not be seen as playing for a zero sum game in Tunisia itself. 423 00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:53,340 But that's part of the challenge of citizenship itself, which I think you both illuminated. 424 00:49:53,340 --> 00:49:58,560 So, Hala. Mohammed, thank you so much indeed for your contributions this evening. 425 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:03,660 Really outstanding. And we look forward to the exhibition at the British Museum, Hala. 426 00:50:03,660 --> 00:50:11,350 And we look forward to the appearance of Jemina. There I see slugger's also looking forward to that very much indeed. 427 00:50:11,350 --> 00:50:16,080 And I also want to thank Michael and the Middle East centre that's announcing it's for 428 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:21,240 hosting this evening and also for the unseen person who has made all this possible, 429 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:28,800 Stacey Chirchir, who really we want to thank for having set things up so brilliantly and make it all work so smoothly. 430 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:34,530 Michael, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Chazan. Thank you, Stacy, for running and setting all of this up. 431 00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:39,720 And thank you very much, Charles and the producers, Tunisian society, for making this possible. 432 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,870 We want to work in partnership and its great organisation. 433 00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:49,300 I can remember when joint organisations in Britain and Tunisia were rather different arrangements to go back more than 10 years. 434 00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:54,180 And it's wonderful to have that cooperation. And Charles and the other members have been wonderful. 435 00:50:54,180 --> 00:51:00,220 Thank you, Charles. And thank you again, Mohamed and Helen. Thank you for coming and spending time and coming in from Tunisia. 436 00:51:00,220 --> 00:51:05,070 And we wish you well. And thank you very much. The session that ends this week. 437 00:51:05,070 --> 00:51:09,930 And apologies again for those of you ask questions when they put them. Please do join us next week. 438 00:51:09,930 --> 00:51:14,490 Send in the series when we've been doing a retrospective on the role of social media. 439 00:51:14,490 --> 00:51:18,990 Ten years on from the Arab uprisings. But that's a very good evening to you. 440 00:51:18,990 --> 00:51:33,905 Have a wonderful weekend. We look forward to seeing you. Thank you very much.