1 00:00:05,420 --> 00:00:07,610 Good evening, everyone. My name is Walter Armbrister. 2 00:00:07,610 --> 00:00:16,580 I'm a fellow of the Middle East Centre and I'm going to be hosting tonight's speaker, who is Dr. Kristin Henderson? 3 00:00:16,580 --> 00:00:22,970 He's a university lecturer in international relations and modern Middle Eastern studies at the University of Leiden. 4 00:00:22,970 --> 00:00:26,180 He's a scholar of political economy and development in the Middle East. 5 00:00:26,180 --> 00:00:34,130 His research focuses on the Arab region with a particular focus on Gulf investment in the states of North Africa and the Levant. 6 00:00:34,130 --> 00:00:39,710 World development and business politics. He has 20 years of experience working in the Middle East. 7 00:00:39,710 --> 00:00:44,120 He was previously a journalist in Lebanon and for Al-Jazeera in Qatar. 8 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:53,510 He covered the 2006 Israel Hezbollah war, and he consulted on business and politics in the Middle East for corporations and governments. 9 00:00:53,510 --> 00:00:59,690 His next project is going to examine the consequences of a green energy shift in the Middle East and North Africa region, 10 00:00:59,690 --> 00:01:07,310 focussing on the modality of state implementation of renewable energy and the reconfiguration of regime power through these schemes. 11 00:01:07,310 --> 00:01:18,350 Economically, political and ideological. And I want to say to the audience that you should ask your questions using the Q&A function in Zoom. 12 00:01:18,350 --> 00:01:22,340 After Dr Henderson has spoken, we will. 13 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:32,870 It will, of course, entertain questions. And so if you if you send questions on the Q&A function, if you want to be anonymous, then you should say so. 14 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:37,250 Otherwise, when I read your question out, I will read your name. 15 00:01:37,250 --> 00:01:47,240 The title of Dr Henderson's lecture is What does political ecology tell us about environmental crisis in the Middle East? 16 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:58,820 Take it away, Christian. Hello and good evening. Thank you for coming to this lecture and thank you to St. Anthony's College for the invitation. 17 00:01:58,820 --> 00:02:04,070 It's a real honour and pleasure to be here. So essentially, 18 00:02:04,070 --> 00:02:11,390 what I'm going to talk about this evening is political ecology and what kind of lessons we can draw from political 19 00:02:11,390 --> 00:02:19,550 ecology in terms of understanding the forms of environmental crisis that are currently unfolding within the region. 20 00:02:19,550 --> 00:02:24,980 Now this isn't necessarily a piece of research. 21 00:02:24,980 --> 00:02:29,960 It's rather a set of reflections and conclusions that are drawn through teaching 22 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,610 a course here at Leiden University on political college in the Middle East. 23 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:41,570 So in that sense, I will do my best to reference some of the scholars that have really kind of allowed me to come 24 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:47,750 to some of these conclusions that are featured on the syllabus of the course that I teach. 25 00:02:47,750 --> 00:02:54,530 But if anyone is interested to see the reading list of the syllabus, please do get in contact with me and I will. 26 00:02:54,530 --> 00:03:01,850 I can send it to you in order that they received the the citations that they deserve. 27 00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:07,550 So what I'm going to do today is essentially go through a talk that has about three or four stages. 28 00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:13,070 Firstly, I'm going to to define what I mean by political ecology. 29 00:03:13,070 --> 00:03:21,830 I'm going to kind of explain what that that entails, what kind of theoretical and conceptual tools that gives us. 30 00:03:21,830 --> 00:03:27,500 And then I'm going to talk a little bit about the way in which the environment tends to be 31 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:32,780 perceived within the western imaginary the environment in the Middle East and North Africa. 32 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:39,410 That is and how we can use political ecology as a tool to kind of deconstruct that. 33 00:03:39,410 --> 00:03:47,810 I will then talk about the projects and plans and policies that are being implemented by governments in the 34 00:03:47,810 --> 00:03:55,880 region and what political ecology tells us about those those projects and why they may not be successful. 35 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:05,060 And lastly, I will offer some alternative possibilities some alternative forms of environmental relations in the region that we 36 00:04:05,060 --> 00:04:14,570 could examine and use to give us perhaps a little bit more of an optimistic idea of what may happen in the future. 37 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:19,430 So firstly, let me just explain what I mean by political ecology. 38 00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:27,620 So political ecology is essentially a means of understanding the way in which the environment is determined by society. 39 00:04:27,620 --> 00:04:36,980 It places an emphasis on the manner in which resources, crisis externalities are distributed unequally within society. 40 00:04:36,980 --> 00:04:41,930 So in this sense, this framework considers that ecology is political. 41 00:04:41,930 --> 00:04:48,960 It pushes back on the notion that environmental governance is neutral or apolitical. 42 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:55,080 And with this lens, we can see that a problem such as scarcity is really socially constructed. 43 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:03,930 It is not a problem that is created by the limitations and capacities of our natural environment. 44 00:05:03,930 --> 00:05:11,130 And I think this is an important point to remember in terms of what are we discussing about in terms of the Middle East. 45 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:17,280 So in this sense, political ecology is opposed to the ideas of someone like Thomas Mathis, 46 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:24,010 who argued that population growth would lead to crisis and starvation due to the limitations of environment and political goals. 47 00:05:24,010 --> 00:05:32,580 You would really push back on this idea because it doesn't necessarily take into account the way in which resources are distributed unequally. 48 00:05:32,580 --> 00:05:40,530 Now what attracts me to this conceptual field is that this isn't just an abstract, critical academic theory. 49 00:05:40,530 --> 00:05:48,990 It also offers quite practical means of establishing alternative ecological relations, 50 00:05:48,990 --> 00:05:54,900 alternative ways of achieving some sort of form of environmental sustainability. 51 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:59,700 And one way it does that is through an emphasis on human agency. 52 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:06,030 So political culture, you would remind us that there is always human agency over the environment, 53 00:06:06,030 --> 00:06:13,110 and there is always the means to transform our environment, both in a bad way, but also in a good way. 54 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:21,390 So in this vein, the field would pay considerable attention to the successful environmental custodianship of native peoples. 55 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:32,940 It would pay attention to the forms of environmental management, management and knowledge that are manifest in traditional practises. 56 00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:38,490 It would also include discussions on alternative economic systems on the basis that the 57 00:06:38,490 --> 00:06:43,380 model of infinite economic growth is essentially incompatible with sustainability. 58 00:06:43,380 --> 00:06:46,240 So it would within this kind of conceptual field. 59 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:53,910 You could also argue that ideas such as degrowth or doorknock dollar economics offer these kinds of alternatives. 60 00:06:53,910 --> 00:07:01,680 Now, I won't go any further on the theory. It's late on Friday evening, and perhaps it's not the right time for a discussion about theories, 61 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:08,590 so I'm going to move on now to a more kind of empirical reflection. So. 62 00:07:08,590 --> 00:07:09,940 When we look at the Middle East, 63 00:07:09,940 --> 00:07:17,890 we can see that there is no doubt that the environment in the Middle East is in a state of crisis as it is in every part of the world. 64 00:07:17,890 --> 00:07:25,540 Carbon emissions and a warming climate are projected to result in temperature increases that could threaten many forms of life. 65 00:07:25,540 --> 00:07:33,100 The droughts and declining food yields will be severely detrimental, particularly for the poorest societies in the region. 66 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:41,200 Other problems include biodiversity loss, waste, unsustainable material, extraction of resources, 67 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:47,140 water minerals, and all of these are placing extreme pressure on US life systems. 68 00:07:47,140 --> 00:07:56,290 And none of what I say in this lecture refutes this reality. However, what I would say is that using the framework of political ecology, 69 00:07:56,290 --> 00:08:05,290 we can see that these types of problems within the Middle East and North Africa tend to be treated in quite an exceptional manner, 70 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:12,790 and this is present in Western media, but also present, I think to a certain extent in some forms of Western scholarly research. 71 00:08:12,790 --> 00:08:20,170 So generally, there is a tendency to portray the environment in the region as distinct from that in the West. 72 00:08:20,170 --> 00:08:25,900 And I'm going to show you a couple of examples. Can everyone see that slide? 73 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:32,980 So here we can see some examples of news headlines or reporting of the on the environment within the region. 74 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:41,500 And I think they perhaps give you some idea of the kind of sensationalism and exceptionalism that is present in some of this reporting. 75 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:47,230 And generally, we can see that there is there are more deeper tropes as well. 76 00:08:47,230 --> 00:08:52,600 Often, the Middle East environment is portrayed as really unruly and badly governed, 77 00:08:52,600 --> 00:09:01,000 a condition that threatens to lead to societal collapse and migration that could threaten European stability. 78 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,180 And one very good example of this is the argument that was quite popular around 10 79 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:14,410 years ago that the revolution and civil war in Syria was started by climate change, 80 00:09:14,410 --> 00:09:23,230 and the argument was that the drought that took place in the 2002, 2007 and 2008 was caused by climate change, 81 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:30,130 and that drought pushed a number of farmers off their land, then were forced to internally migrate to the cities. 82 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:39,490 And these people then were dissatisfied and unhappy, and they were a major, the major actors in the revolt that took place in 2011. 83 00:09:39,490 --> 00:09:44,390 And this isn't a marginal argument. This is an argument that was very popular at that time. 84 00:09:44,390 --> 00:09:52,800 And this is probably part of the last decade. And as an example, it was actually repeated by President Obama. 85 00:09:52,800 --> 00:10:03,670 Now, however, as a number of scholars have pointed out, people such as Mark Withouta and John Selby, as well as others, there is little evidence. 86 00:10:03,670 --> 00:10:09,580 The evidence for this argument is very questionable. In fact, it seems very doubtful. 87 00:10:09,580 --> 00:10:14,200 There isn't really that much evidence that this was the chain of events that actually took place, 88 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:22,540 and they would also argue that this ignores the political and social roots of what took place in Syria. 89 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:29,830 Now, this link between conflict and resources in the region is also repeated elsewhere. 90 00:10:29,830 --> 00:10:34,240 You can find this trope emerge in many different forms. 91 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:43,630 And generally, there is a kind of picture that this is a region that is in a constant state of chaos and conflict as a result of natural resources. 92 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:44,950 And if any of you are interested, 93 00:10:44,950 --> 00:10:53,140 I recommend that you read some of the articles by Clemence Hoffmann who's written about this and quite succinct manner. 94 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:59,560 So, for example, conflicts in Sudan and Syria are explained on the basis of resource scarcity. 95 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:05,920 Another example would be the fact that would be this constant argument that you can find that the region 96 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:13,180 will experience war on the basis of water shortages at the same time and in a contradictory manner. 97 00:11:13,180 --> 00:11:18,790 The region's resource wealth is also analysed as a source of conflict. 98 00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:29,290 So, for example, oil is sometimes used in a simplistic manner, manner to explain conflict and other forms of geopolitical intrigue. 99 00:11:29,290 --> 00:11:35,440 Again, another example of this would be Syria and the argument against circulated that 100 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,600 circulated in the last decade that one of the reasons behind Qatar's support 101 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:50,230 for the Syrian opposition was that the Assad regime refused to allow concepts of a construction pipeline that would link its gas to Western markets. 102 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:58,520 Again, there's not really any evidence for this. So these these these kind of tropes have quite a bit. 103 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,560 They they persist, we can find them emerging again and again and again. 104 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:10,700 And they have quite deep sort of ontological roots, I think. 105 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:16,400 And essentially, they I would argue that they're a form of environmental orientalism, essentially. 106 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:25,490 So these ideas rest on the assumption that societies in the region do not have the same agency over the environment as you might find in the West. 107 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:31,250 There is this depiction that societies in the region are subjects of the environment. 108 00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:37,430 They are determined by the environment. They are not masters of the environment. And as I said, these depictions are not new. 109 00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:46,860 They're rooted in an environmental imaginary that has been present in the western perception of the Orient for several centuries. 110 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:49,950 Now, I won't read these out, but whilst I'm talking, perhaps you could. 111 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:54,780 If you're interested, you can have a look at them, but these are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about, I think. 112 00:12:54,780 --> 00:13:06,360 And they are the writings of Western European explorers and historians who visited various parts of the Middle East during this time. 113 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:14,460 And essentially, what you can see here is this idea that the desert is both exotic but also a form of abnormal nature 114 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:20,350 manifest the notion that this is a biblical and ancient landscape whose contemporary inhabitants, 115 00:13:20,350 --> 00:13:25,170 indigenous inhabitants are unable to take care of the land. 116 00:13:25,170 --> 00:13:31,740 And therefore this has led to this. Does a certification and the insinuation is, 117 00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:39,930 and many of these kinds of reflections is that this inability to take care of land and govern land and care 118 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:49,330 for land is that it justifies the colonial intervention and colonial governance in some way or another. 119 00:13:49,330 --> 00:13:58,750 Now, these tropes, as I say, that they're very persistent and they exist in contemporary forms of Western culture on the left, 120 00:13:58,750 --> 00:14:03,130 many of you will recognise that as being a scene in Lawrence of Arabia. 121 00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:06,280 And I think that's a very good example of what I'm referring to. 122 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,500 This is the scene in which one Bedouin tribesman shoots another in a dispute over water. 123 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:20,320 And I think this is an example of what I'm referring to, that this is an image of a society that is in a constant state of conflict over resources. 124 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:28,090 And what's particularly interesting about this example is that obviously between them, as Lawrence himself, who is seen in this scene, 125 00:14:28,090 --> 00:14:33,340 is depicted in the scene as the kind of voice of moderation the person who's 126 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:38,740 trying to stabilise this region and prevent these conflicts and bring some unity, 127 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:46,660 but to the people. Another example would be on the right, which is a scene from Black Hawk Down, 128 00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:51,040 and it's the scene where the American Marines fly over Mogadishu and experience 129 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:58,210 a warlord seising the food of of of that's supposed to go to two people. 130 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:02,350 And what's interesting about this is that in terms of the cinematography, 131 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:09,070 is that you can see that in the clip and the picture that they actually the the they've put 132 00:15:09,070 --> 00:15:17,890 a certain type of lens on the film that is intended to make the place Somalia look dirtier, 133 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:21,370 darker, more threatening. And that's actually other people have written about this. 134 00:15:21,370 --> 00:15:30,120 And this also takes place elsewhere, particularly, for example, in films about someone like Mexico, for example. 135 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:36,060 So these what I've done here is really try and explain or argue that the way the 136 00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:40,590 western perception of the environment is problematic for all kinds of reasons, 137 00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:47,550 and it's tended to create this kind of exceptional view that leads to quite hysterical, 138 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:56,470 sensational coverage coverage is actually an actual fact wrong for various reasons. 139 00:15:56,470 --> 00:16:05,230 So what I'm going to do now is move on a little bit and talk about what political colours you can tell us about some of the government policies that 140 00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:15,400 are being applied in the region that are intended to at least they have the stated intention of trying to address environmental sustainability. 141 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:23,140 Now, I think by and large, I think political ecology would tell us that many of these policies and plans will most 142 00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:29,410 likely fail in their objective to achieve a genuine form of environmental sustainability. 143 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:35,920 And I'm talking here about the slew of news announcements that we can almost see on a weekly basis 144 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:41,650 at the moment of very large and ambitious projects that are intended to address the environment. 145 00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:50,110 So, for example, renewable energy projects, forestation desalination, vertical farming, new cities in the desert. 146 00:16:50,110 --> 00:17:01,020 Geoengineering, carbon extraction. Now, some of these projects, particularly renewable energy, clearly do have benefits in terms of sustainability. 147 00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:08,540 The renewable energy can obviously lead to the decarbonisation of energy systems. 148 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:16,730 However, what I would argue here really is that what has tended to take place is that the hype and the policy discourse 149 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:23,790 surrounded by renewable energy projects has also become a form of politics that is quite important. 150 00:17:23,790 --> 00:17:34,130 So it's not necessarily about achieving a decarbonisation. It's about the kind of techno politics that surrounds these two forms of projects. 151 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:38,480 And if we actually look at the the details of these projects, 152 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:45,470 we can see that the idea that there is a green energy transition in place becomes a little bit problematic. 153 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:49,190 So for example, if you were to look at the UAE, 154 00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:58,580 you can see and UAE is one country that often you can see in reports that there is an assumption that a green energy transition is taking place there. 155 00:17:58,580 --> 00:18:01,920 However, you can see that currently the green, 156 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:09,920 the amount of renewable energy that constitutes the country's power mix is around two percent, maybe less. 157 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:17,450 And even by 2050, only 50 percent of the country's power generation will come from renewable energy. 158 00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:25,370 Maybe less, maybe 46 percent, actually. And just to give you an example of another example of how why, 159 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:34,010 I think we should all be a little bit questionable about these claims and 2023 Dubai will complete a coal fired power station. 160 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:43,610 So again, this is not really the kind of thing you would expect from a society that is making a genuine renewable energy transition. 161 00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:51,020 Now, in other cases, these projects are not environmentally sustainable at all, but really, they're about what looks like going on. 162 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:57,530 Who wrote a very interesting book called Spaceship in the Desert, described as technical interventions. 163 00:18:57,530 --> 00:19:06,440 They are essentially designed to displace unsustainable unsustainability, environmental and sustainability elsewhere. 164 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:15,220 They can either spatially, either literally physically to another place or temporarily into the future. 165 00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:19,660 So in this sense, this kind of, uh, this is, I think, 166 00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:28,180 really an example of how governments in the region are preferring to have a technical 167 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:37,150 intervention into the social metabolism that essentially is designed to avoid the very 168 00:19:37,150 --> 00:19:42,790 tricky questions and difficult questions of achieving real sustainability and also 169 00:19:42,790 --> 00:19:49,780 depoliticise these questions and turn them into something that is purely technocratic. 170 00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:59,680 So, for example, if you were to look at desalination, you can see that this is a highly power intensive process, 171 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,870 desalination being the removal of seawater and turning it into freshwater from the sea, 172 00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:11,980 which is a very common practise in places like the Gulf, but also increasingly in Jordan and Israel. 173 00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:16,450 But you can see that in reality, this is a very power intensive process. 174 00:20:16,450 --> 00:20:24,100 Most of the power that it consumes as a carbon footprint. So these processes have a very large carbon footprint. 175 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:31,480 And moreover, it dumps the saline back into the sea, which has a damaging effect on marine ecosystems, 176 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,290 but also leads to rising saline content in the sea. 177 00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:41,540 So in the future, desalination will become a more costly and more difficult process. 178 00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:47,590 And moreover, these projects are often are unlikely to be socially progressive, 179 00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:53,690 there is tends to be an assumption that technology will lead to social progress. 180 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:58,770 And I think this is something that we, as a society, as a global society are beginning to realise is not the case. 181 00:20:58,770 --> 00:21:02,930 We can certainly see that in other areas, such as big data. 182 00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:10,220 But the assumption that these projects will lead to social progress is, I think, questionable, 183 00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:18,980 and often they tend to be very top-down and reproduce existing social inequalities and hierarchies. 184 00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:27,080 I want to give you an example here. So this is, I think, a very good example of the type of project that I'm referring to is a kind of mega project. 185 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:35,360 And this is Neom in Saudi Arabia, a Neom is a new city that's been established by the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. 186 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:42,890 It's very, obviously very important to him politically, ethically and economically in terms of his so-called vision for the country. 187 00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:50,870 And one example of this, the kind of manner in which you have a sort of policy hype that's attached to these projects would be 188 00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:57,170 this latest announcement that they intend to build a city that will take the shape of a straight line. 189 00:21:57,170 --> 00:22:02,930 It's called the line. And I actually don't necessarily think that this will ever be constructed. 190 00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:09,290 I think it's actually just an attempt to create publicity and attention. 191 00:22:09,290 --> 00:22:12,560 But what you can see in a project like this is that in terms of that, 192 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:22,770 reproducing the the same high hierarchies and being very top-down is that this project actually displace local people and displaced the local tribe. 193 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:30,830 And in actual fact, it resulted in the killing and in clashes with security forces off of one of these tribesmen. 194 00:22:30,830 --> 00:22:37,790 And ultimately, I think that many of these projects really are just about the usual concerns of any ruling elite. 195 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:45,830 The dominant motivation within many of these so-called these projects that are intended to try and achieve sustainability is, 196 00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:52,640 in reality, just the reproduction of power, both in terms of public image and making money. 197 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:58,340 And essentially, they're a form of techno politics that are intended to create the image of progress. 198 00:22:58,340 --> 00:23:06,420 And also create new business opportunities and sources of rent for the ruling elite in different ways. 199 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:10,140 OK, so I'm going to move on to the final part of the lecture, 200 00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:15,060 and I'm going to talk a little bit about what political ecology could inform us of alternatives. 201 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:21,100 So if this isn't going to work, this is unlikely to achieve real sustainability, then what can we do? 202 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:28,420 What can we look at? What might be the model for a more sustainable relationship with the environment? 203 00:23:28,420 --> 00:23:29,320 So on this question, 204 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:39,850 political ecology would guide us to the need for a deeper systemic change in order to create a genuinely harmonious relationship with our ecology. 205 00:23:39,850 --> 00:23:46,270 And in that sense, I think one lesson that we could learn would be from the forms of environmental 206 00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:51,040 governance that existed prior to the formation of states in the region. 207 00:23:51,040 --> 00:24:00,640 Now, in contrast to the type of violent chaos that is depicted in films such as Lawrence of Arabia Pastoral Cultures, 208 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:09,760 the Bedouin tribes of the region often relied on systems of environmental governance that were remarkably sophisticated and effective. 209 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:22,510 And I'm referring to the example of hemos or Armia, which is an Arabic word that refers essentially to protected places. 210 00:24:22,510 --> 00:24:28,270 And these existed in most of the arid rangelands of the region, 211 00:24:28,270 --> 00:24:36,790 and they were essentially common lands that were subject to tribal agreements in order to prevent overexploitation and grazing. 212 00:24:36,790 --> 00:24:39,610 They did prohibit access to other people, 213 00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:47,490 but often there is some evidence to suggest that these disputes were managed relatively peacefully, although not always. 214 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:55,270 Another example would be the types of agreements and cooperation that could be found in the management of terrorist agriculture. 215 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:59,560 For example, in South Arabia, but also elsewhere in the region. 216 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:06,790 This system has pretty much disappeared as a result of the emergence of states in the 20th century that essentially nationalised land. 217 00:25:06,790 --> 00:25:11,140 And what's interesting is that you can see in the literature that this at the 218 00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:18,120 end of the system actually led to environmental degradation and overgrazing. 219 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:24,460 But I'm not suggesting that a return to this way of life is either desirable or feasible. 220 00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:30,640 What I am saying is that this system could be taken as a precedent of more sustainable living. 221 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,980 One that has clear indigenous antecedents. 222 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:42,790 So this is not something that is imposed from outside it, something that is already present within the kind of cultural tradition of the region. 223 00:25:42,790 --> 00:25:46,660 Now, the other direction in which political ecology would point towards the region, 224 00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:55,480 social movements and often the study of these movements in the West has tended to focus on the implications for strategy and security, 225 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,000 and the internal substance of these revolutions and rebellions is some sometimes subject to less attention. 226 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:10,980 And one area in which this is definitely the case is the kind of ecological environmental features of these social movements. 227 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:15,270 And I would argue that much of the history of the region's social movements, 228 00:26:15,270 --> 00:26:19,770 whether it be the Palestinian national movement, the Egyptian revolution, the Rojava region, 229 00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:22,050 the Lebanese protests of the last couple of years, 230 00:26:22,050 --> 00:26:29,310 the Doha revolution of the 60s and 70s were all partly motivated by questions of environmental justice. 231 00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:35,550 Now, in some ways, this may seem to be obvious to some of you, but I think it's worth reiterating. 232 00:26:35,550 --> 00:26:43,200 And I think it's worth reiterating because these movements history of peasant rebellions and resistance against settler colonialism, 233 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:50,250 monopolisation of land and water and dispossession has often been hidden and distorted. 234 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:56,370 And I think this these movements allow us to imagine an alternative possibility. 235 00:26:56,370 --> 00:27:07,350 The confirmation of the existence of social agency over the environment, as well as its control by ruling elites and the colonial powers. 236 00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:14,820 And with these movements in mind, the societies of the Middle East should not be seen as resigned to the fate of environmental crisis. 237 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,880 And they are also a reminder of the fact that the possibility for future dissent is always going to be present. 238 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,110 OK, I'm going to end there. 239 00:27:22,110 --> 00:27:30,600 I've realised I've covered a lot of ground and half an hour, so if anyone has any further questions, I'd look forward to to try and answer them. 240 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:40,200 Thank you. Thank you, Christian. I have a question from Karim in Guinea, and I'll read it to you. 241 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,960 It is that perhaps there is a distinction to be made here between media sensationalism about 242 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,780 political impacts of climate change and the region's fundamental environmental conditions. 243 00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:58,830 The fact that environmental conditions across the region are largely less well, the text is less unsuitable for human settlement, 244 00:27:58,830 --> 00:28:03,690 but I think perhaps you meant less suitable for human settlement than temperate climates, 245 00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:12,030 except for a few geographic locations where water, bio capacity and climate allow, it makes the region highly vulnerable to climate change. 246 00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:18,100 There are numerous studies on the subject. Are we suggesting that this is not true? 247 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:27,640 I'm not suggesting it's not true. I think that there are features of the region that make it vulnerable to 248 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,260 environmental reasons that make it vulnerable to something such as climate change. 249 00:28:32,260 --> 00:28:39,430 But what I am saying is that this is that type of question is often treated in a very exceptional manner. 250 00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:49,570 So for example, I live in the Netherlands, which is a country that sits below sea level and is also highly susceptible to climate change. 251 00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:54,430 But I don't necessarily see the Netherlands being treated in the same way as I do. 252 00:28:54,430 --> 00:28:58,450 I call edges of the Middle East and North Africa. 253 00:28:58,450 --> 00:29:05,620 So I think that my argument is, is that this kind of environmental reality is not something that I'm refuting, 254 00:29:05,620 --> 00:29:11,980 but rather what I am arguing is that the treatment of the ecology of the region, 255 00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:22,660 both within mainstream media and within, within some scholarship and within policy research tends to as a tendency to accept and 256 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:31,460 place an emphasis on or not place enough emphasis on human agency over the environment. 257 00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:39,560 OK. Remind remind the participants that if you want to ask questions, use the Q&A function and Zoom. 258 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:53,690 I'll ask a question. At one point, you mentioned that most of the of the policies for creating sustainable living in the region will fail, 259 00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:59,750 and it immediately occurred to me that that is very much the case here as well in this country. 260 00:29:59,750 --> 00:30:05,450 You know, for example, pats itself on the back for reducing automobile emissions, 261 00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:11,630 but at the same time is expanding its transportation network in ways and, you know, 262 00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:19,400 telling itself that it can, you know, avoid changing its lifestyle by getting everybody to switch to electric cars, 263 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,750 which actually have at least as large a carbon footprint. 264 00:30:23,750 --> 00:30:26,360 When you look at it from the beginning of production, 265 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:32,780 all the way to the end of its use as conventional automobiles, possibly even more, it's not going to. 266 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:42,440 It's actually facilitating that is only going to make the environmental crisis worse from the perspective of this what what this country does with it. 267 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,650 But then the trajectory of places in the Middle East, like Cairo, for example, and you know, 268 00:30:48,650 --> 00:30:57,590 you were sort of raising the, you know, the visions of, you know, kind of traditional pastoral land use and so forth. 269 00:30:57,590 --> 00:31:08,120 But actually, you know, sort of the traditional big cities like Cairo compared to on a per capita basis to cities in the West is very efficient. 270 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:20,940 And yet the trajectory of Cairo is is all about trying to make Cairo more like the UK. 271 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:24,300 And so, I mean, what what does one do with this? I mean, you know, 272 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:27,810 this is actually the trajectory of the political ecology seems to be going exactly 273 00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:31,770 in the opposite direction that the era sustaining that that you're arguing, 274 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:34,320 you know, that that it could go. 275 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:41,910 And you know, when you're talking about precedents, shouldn't you be looking more at at the urban precedence than the, 276 00:31:41,910 --> 00:31:46,120 you know, kind of the land use and the pastoral precedents? Yes. 277 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,970 I mean, I think when I when I say that many of these projects, 278 00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:58,000 particularly I'm talking about the mega projects that really substantially, you know, enormous projects that the sometimes discussed. 279 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,080 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's no difference there between, you know, 280 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:08,500 forms of Western policy and the sense that most Western policy is not necessarily about achieving genuine sustainability. 281 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:20,230 It's rather, I think, a form of modernism that is essentially about, uh, well, partly again, about displacing unsustainability elsewhere. 282 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:29,200 So certainly within the West, you know, you can see that something like electric cars or the industrialisation process, 283 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,840 the concept that the commodities and technology that we consume is produced elsewhere. 284 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,530 So, you know, that's one argument you can make about China, for example, 285 00:32:38,530 --> 00:32:46,730 in the sense that one of the reasons why it has such a large carbon footprint is that it is essentially the workshop of the world. 286 00:32:46,730 --> 00:32:54,010 And I, when I say that they will most likely fail, then there is no difference that this isn't something that is. 287 00:32:54,010 --> 00:33:01,210 I think you could say the same thing about many, many regions of the world, particularly in the West. 288 00:33:01,210 --> 00:33:06,370 In terms of your question about Egypt, I mean, that's a really good. 289 00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:09,760 I'm glad you raised that because Egypt has a very light. 290 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:16,330 Cairo has a very high rate of waste recycling. 291 00:33:16,330 --> 00:33:25,150 I think it's one of even one of the highest in the world. But the reason why that's one of the reasons why that's the case is that the waste 292 00:33:25,150 --> 00:33:32,680 disposal is undertaken by a group of people who live in an area outside of Cairo, 293 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,420 and they do it in a albeit in very unpleasant circumstances, but they do it by hand. 294 00:33:37,420 --> 00:33:47,770 It's a kind of cottage industry. And I think that's a good example of the fact that the bottom up forms of activity tend to 295 00:33:47,770 --> 00:33:53,380 be more successful than top-down forms of activity in the sense that as far as I'm aware, 296 00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:59,230 they did try and privatise garbage collection in Egypt a few years ago, and they still try and do this. 297 00:33:59,230 --> 00:34:05,380 But they the corporate garbage collection in Cairo, 298 00:34:05,380 --> 00:34:13,990 which just simply wasn't as efficient as the kind of cottage industry the informal collection of garbage. 299 00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:21,790 Now lastly, I'm not sure what your final question was, but how can we why are we looking at rural forms of of, 300 00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:26,830 uh, we've got another question that is along the same lines. 301 00:34:26,830 --> 00:34:34,570 This is from Faisal Hamada, and it's a it's a more efficient formulation of the same question that I was just trying to ask a moment ago. 302 00:34:34,570 --> 00:34:42,610 You're saying, first of all, saying, thanks for the talk. I wonder if there's a place for urbanism in discussions of political ecology in the region 303 00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:46,510 that isn't necessarily dictated through the kinds of top-down spectacles you discuss. 304 00:34:46,510 --> 00:34:51,280 I mean, you were you. You were just talking about that a moment ago. Perhaps you could elaborate on it a bit more. 305 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,530 I mean, I'm kind of more of a rural less. 306 00:34:56,530 --> 00:35:03,370 So I'm not. I'm less of an urban asset in terms of my perspective, but I think that's obviously a really important question. 307 00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:17,260 But I think that what is, uh, you know, forms of democracy, whether it be energy, democracy or access to commodities or access to resources, 308 00:35:17,260 --> 00:35:28,450 access to water are often, you know, that's that's a kind of that's a key question within urban society. 309 00:35:28,450 --> 00:35:41,470 So I think, for example, if you were to look at the protests that took place in Lebanon off of garbage, this was kind of, you know, 310 00:35:41,470 --> 00:35:48,580 it wasn't in some ways this underlines what I'm talking about in the sense that the protests in Lebanon 311 00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:55,390 started in around 2015 or the current wave of protests and they started as a result of the garbage crisis. 312 00:35:55,390 --> 00:36:03,940 So, you know, in terms of understanding environmental justice movements in the region, yes, there is a peasant movement undoubtably. 313 00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:12,100 I mean, we could argue that the 2011 revolution in Egypt has this whole other history, which is one of a peasant movement. 314 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:18,340 And Sukarno, whose name I actually saw in the participants has written about this and come up 315 00:36:18,340 --> 00:36:22,330 with some really interesting details of the number of people who join unions. 316 00:36:22,330 --> 00:36:30,670 Farmers unions after the 2011 revolution in Egypt was, you know, upwards of 800000 people. 317 00:36:30,670 --> 00:36:38,470 But also, we could say the same thing about urban movements. Urban social movements are often about questions of environmental justice. 318 00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:45,260 If we look at, for example, Lebanon and we look at what took place there, I mean, that was clearly a. 319 00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:50,390 The garbage crisis for a lot of people represented a whole lot of other things that were wrong with society. 320 00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:58,090 But it was the garbage crisis that really was the trigger. I'm not sure if I've answered your question, but I've done my best to. 321 00:36:58,090 --> 00:37:01,480 OK, here's here's another question this one is from Yusef Sharif, 322 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,870 who says authoritarian regimes in the Middle East and North Africa are using the fight against climate 323 00:37:07,870 --> 00:37:14,140 change the way they use the war on terror in previous decades as a means to secure Western support. 324 00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:24,610 Do you have any thoughts on this hypothesis? Yeah, I think I think I think unfortunately, climate will become highly securitised in different ways. 325 00:37:24,610 --> 00:37:27,280 And I think the you know, I mean, I saw, for example, 326 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:37,960 the other day that the UK government is trying to implement new regulation that would criminalise protest against, for example, oil infrastructure. 327 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:47,170 So I think that on one level, you know, that kind of confirms what you're talking about in some ways in the sense that on one level, 328 00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:52,450 it will be used the sort of growing discontent about the environment. 329 00:37:52,450 --> 00:38:03,130 Well, I think we responded to with increasing securitisation, but also a lot of the kind of western, uh, governments. 330 00:38:03,130 --> 00:38:13,060 But I think some governments in the region will view questions of resources and questions of access to resources in a very securitised manner. 331 00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:19,700 I actually there's a couple of the some interesting research is being done actually to show how 332 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:27,190 Western militaries are really incorporating this kind of securitised attitude towards climate change. 333 00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:36,140 So I think I think that that's that's absolutely correct. I have both a comment and a question. 334 00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:42,620 It came in two parts, it's from Sarah Irving and the comment is, well, I agree with the overall point of the lecture. 335 00:38:42,620 --> 00:38:47,390 I also wonder a bit about the opening point regarding the media portrayals. 336 00:38:47,390 --> 00:38:54,710 Quite a few of the examples shown look very similar to me two examples about other regions with environmental similarities, 337 00:38:54,710 --> 00:39:01,970 such as Australia, or which also use apocalyptic headlines to talk about climate change in order to spur action. 338 00:39:01,970 --> 00:39:07,100 So maybe such as regarding massive flooding in southern and eastern England? 339 00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:15,920 So that was the comment part, and the question from Sarah Irving is is the sensational coverage more than about developing 340 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:22,460 genres of climate change journalism than about Orientalism in this particular case? 341 00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:28,850 Yeah, I mean, I think I think I think there's some maybe some truth to that to a certain extent, 342 00:39:28,850 --> 00:39:35,000 in the sense that, you know, sensationalist headlines will always sell right. 343 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,740 Headlines are always going to try and portray something as being dramatic. 344 00:39:38,740 --> 00:39:44,200 And, you know, because that's what sells newspapers. 345 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:50,680 But I think in this case, what my point is is that this is not just about media representation. 346 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:59,140 It goes much deeper into the western canon in terms of the way in which the environment in the region is portrayed, 347 00:39:59,140 --> 00:40:03,700 and this is something that's been taking place really for several centuries. 348 00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:16,540 So I think it it doesn't for me, it definitely does have it definitely fits within this idea of sort of Orientalist imaginary of the region. 349 00:40:16,540 --> 00:40:25,720 So I think this is manifest in, uh, you know, the media form, and it's partly because of sensationalist media coverage. 350 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:32,470 But I do think it has some kind of ontological, uh, roots as well. 351 00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:39,670 OK. And we have a question from Andrew Arsen, who says, thanks for the paper that travelled very far in a short time. 352 00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:44,950 I guess you must have heard an earlier version of your paper, just two small empirical questions. 353 00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:52,300 One is about the effects of agribusiness, particularly under neoliberal conditions on traditional modes of farming. 354 00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:53,890 I'm thinking here, for instance, 355 00:40:53,890 --> 00:41:03,220 of Rameez Raikes work on the decline of terrorist farming in the Bekaa to make way for fruit trees and the environmental degradation that followed. 356 00:41:03,220 --> 00:41:11,140 How does this compare to the high modernist techno politics of nationalising states that you mentioned towards the end? 357 00:41:11,140 --> 00:41:15,880 The other is simply to push you a bit more without wanting to lapse into pessimism 358 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,470 or cynicism on the potential of social movements and the fact of corporate, 359 00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:25,960 as well as state initiatives like mining, quarrying, landfills, dam projects, 360 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:33,760 etc. How much are these able to exert social agency in the face of these transformations of the rural landscape? 361 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:41,410 So these are two good questions. So I mean, in terms of agribusiness and its effect on traditional modes of farming, 362 00:41:41,410 --> 00:41:47,320 I mean, I think that's been a substantial change has taken place in the last two decades. 363 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:54,280 But again, it's not something necessarily that's new. I mean, you could also observe processes of agrarian change taking place, you know, 364 00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:03,370 since Muhammad Ali in Egypt and in some ways, um, so perhaps in that sense, you know, 365 00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:15,460 this kind of what you refer to as high modernist techno politics of of of states is not necessarily something that's new and it has precedents and, 366 00:42:15,460 --> 00:42:17,980 you know, projects that we've previously observed in the region. 367 00:42:17,980 --> 00:42:27,940 You know, for example, it could be that one dam, for example, the high dam and other similar projects. 368 00:42:27,940 --> 00:42:35,590 And in terms of the effect, but the contemporary effect of agribusiness on on small farming, I think it's being, you know, substantial. 369 00:42:35,590 --> 00:42:43,360 I think that if you were to look at a country like Egypt, that the growth in export agriculture and foreign investment in agriculture has 370 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:49,870 taken place at the same time as a kind of decreased support for small farmers. 371 00:42:49,870 --> 00:42:54,220 And what's interesting is that this is not necessarily addressed food security. 372 00:42:54,220 --> 00:42:59,020 You know it. Food security in Egypt has probably declined as a result, despite the fact that, 373 00:42:59,020 --> 00:43:06,280 you know, there's been an increased level of investment and despite the fact that, 374 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,860 you know, the more resources have been given towards agriculture in terms of your second question, 375 00:43:11,860 --> 00:43:18,010 I mean, the point this year really is that, yes, I mean, 376 00:43:18,010 --> 00:43:31,780 I'm not trying to argue that social movements do not face substantial an enormous power in terms of their struggles over resources. 377 00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:36,280 But what I am saying is that sometimes this, uh, 378 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:46,450 this history and this presence of an environmental movement in the region has completely erased or completely forgotten about. 379 00:43:46,450 --> 00:43:48,790 And I think it's important not just for the Middle East, 380 00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:57,310 but for all of us at the moment to not resign ourselves to a catastrophe and to not resign ourselves to, you know, 381 00:43:57,310 --> 00:43:59,350 apocalypse in some ways, 382 00:43:59,350 --> 00:44:06,070 because I think that's going to be an increasing problem amongst people as they resign themselves to the worst effects of climate change. 383 00:44:06,070 --> 00:44:10,150 So I think then that that's something that I think is present within the tradition of 384 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:15,910 political ecology in the sense that it really emphasises space for social social agency. 385 00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:17,800 So my to be simple, 386 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:28,660 I think my argument is it's not it's not that I'm not doubting that the art that these movements are often unsuccessful or face a huge obstacle. 387 00:44:28,660 --> 00:44:36,080 But what I am arguing is that they are present and they have potential and they will always have potential. 388 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:45,290 OK, I have a question from Laura James, which is that given the challenge to long term habitability in the Gulf region, 389 00:44:45,290 --> 00:44:50,580 especially, why is so little realistically being done to address climate change? 390 00:44:50,580 --> 00:44:52,670 That might put a little twist of my own on that, 391 00:44:52,670 --> 00:45:01,100 because I think in some ways you've already answered this question when you were talking about megaprojects and their prospects for success, 392 00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:09,160 which suggests or maybe not very high, but is there any route to to? 393 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:15,340 Promoting environmental sustainability that comes from below in the Gulf, because it always appears, at least from the outside, 394 00:45:15,340 --> 00:45:23,350 that everything is top down, everything that happens is done through the state and the states alliances with businesses. 395 00:45:23,350 --> 00:45:28,870 But is there any possibility of a kind of Bottom-Up system? 396 00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:33,400 Movements in the Gulf, I think, need to answer the chancellor's question first. 397 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:45,730 I mean, I think that things are being done. It's just not necessarily about achieving what I would describe as a genuine form of sustainability. 398 00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:53,440 And I think that, you know, don't underestimate this kind of the application of techno modernity to the environment. 399 00:45:53,440 --> 00:46:00,700 So, you know, the idea that we can kind of that these societies could potentially use because substantial resources to essentially 400 00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:12,220 re-engineer the social metabolism to ensure that all of the vulnerabilities that they might face are displaced elsewhere. 401 00:46:12,220 --> 00:46:24,540 But fundamentally, I do not see, you know, that the Gulf countries of the Gulf oil producers, for example, are not about to stop producing oil. 402 00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:34,030 The renewable energy is not necessarily done, something that is not something that's a result of kind of concerns over survival. 403 00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:41,290 It's actually, I think, in my opinion, the kind of investment asset class. 404 00:46:41,290 --> 00:46:45,550 So I think there isn't necessarily that much being done. 405 00:46:45,550 --> 00:46:49,660 But don't underestimate because these are very wealthy societies in some cases. 406 00:46:49,660 --> 00:47:01,150 Don't underestimate just how much they can. How much money and resources they will throw at the problem in order to avoid the kind of tough questions. 407 00:47:01,150 --> 00:47:10,180 Now, to answer your question, Walter, is there any kind of environmental movement in the region? 408 00:47:10,180 --> 00:47:22,560 Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is my argument is that there always is. It may just not be one that is recognisable or is one that is, you know. 409 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:28,290 Is able to assemble on the streets or have some form of assembly. 410 00:47:28,290 --> 00:47:35,580 But I do think you can find in the region that there are definitely citizens who are concerned about the environment, 411 00:47:35,580 --> 00:47:45,150 whether they are able to actually, uh, how that how they navigate the political realities of the region, I think, is something else. 412 00:47:45,150 --> 00:47:52,320 But I do also think that you will find there is definitely a kind of government sponsored, a form of environmentalism. 413 00:47:52,320 --> 00:48:00,400 And also, we need to acknowledge the fact that if we looked at, we'll look at some of the societies in the region, for example, the UAE. 414 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:07,630 Sheikh Zayed, the founding father of the UAE, had a very strong environmental image. 415 00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:11,590 So this is a kind of example of a kind of government sponsored form of environmental ism, 416 00:48:11,590 --> 00:48:18,190 which I think will, will, will be which is present and may have some form of influence in some way. 417 00:48:18,190 --> 00:48:23,020 But I also think there may be other, more kind of less more politicised, 418 00:48:23,020 --> 00:48:33,250 more contentious forms of environmentalism that are existing in some places, but and maybe may become more influential in the future. 419 00:48:33,250 --> 00:48:39,240 And we have we have a question that's a, you know, a comment and a follow up question on the last one, which is from Cream of Guinea, 420 00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:45,420 which is that what climate adaptation projects in the Netherlands are not technological in nature 421 00:48:45,420 --> 00:48:52,050 and are not top-down funded by the state and implemented by private by the private sector. 422 00:48:52,050 --> 00:48:56,040 Or, you know, one might actually rephrase that question slightly. 423 00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:07,540 Also by saying, you know, is there actually a place anywhere for meaningful climate action that isn't channelled through states? 424 00:49:07,540 --> 00:49:15,340 I mean, I think, again, this is not necessarily a contradiction to my point in the sense that what I'm saying is that, 425 00:49:15,340 --> 00:49:22,270 you know what, I'm referring to the fact that these projects and plans and policies in the region are top down. 426 00:49:22,270 --> 00:49:32,230 That's not necessarily different to the West. And my kind of prediction of failure is equally as applicable to the West as it is to the region. 427 00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:37,780 So I don't necessarily think that that that is a contradiction to my argument. 428 00:49:37,780 --> 00:49:43,120 And in terms of what I don't, I don't really know exactly the details of what is taking place in the Netherlands, 429 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,500 but they most likely are similar in some ways. 430 00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:53,470 But yeah, but I also think maybe that perhaps the extent of techno politics is perhaps slightly different for various reasons, 431 00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:58,730 but that's just my hunch. 432 00:49:58,730 --> 00:50:05,690 We have a question from Manalich Habit, which is, first of all, thank you for the presentation and answering your previous question. 433 00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:10,400 You referred, I think probably she met the one before the one you just answered. 434 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,140 You referred to your genuine idea or form of sustainability. 435 00:50:15,140 --> 00:50:20,900 What is that idea? Also, I agree with you that these rich states will throw money at the problem, 436 00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:27,330 but I wasn't sure if you mean this will be a cosmetic cover or actually solve the issues. 437 00:50:27,330 --> 00:50:31,860 So, I mean, that's a good question. And what I want to be honest with you, 438 00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:41,790 I've I'm of the conclusion that genuine form of sustainability is no longer compatible with our current economic system and that 439 00:50:41,790 --> 00:50:52,080 really one of the only means of achieving genuine sustainability is no longer adhering to a kind of infinite growth economic system. 440 00:50:52,080 --> 00:51:00,390 It's just not possible, in my opinion, which is and this is why I am essentially adhering to the to the de-growth school 441 00:51:00,390 --> 00:51:04,560 and that that that's a hugely controversial school and it has all kinds of problems. 442 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:14,370 And I'm not saying that I have answers to those problems, but I do not think that the current system will achieve genuine sustainability. 443 00:51:14,370 --> 00:51:19,110 So in that sense that, you know, I think a lot of these, uh, uh, 444 00:51:19,110 --> 00:51:28,230 projects in the region really have this kind of concept of technical adjustments are not really 445 00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:36,020 are really about kind of just sort of trying to maintain the system as they are elsewhere. 446 00:51:36,020 --> 00:51:42,370 In terms of your second programme, when some rich states from one the programme. 447 00:51:42,370 --> 00:51:49,450 I think I think there is a tendency to I mean, for example, if we were to look at food, you know, 448 00:51:49,450 --> 00:51:58,810 the these countries will develop supply chains have already developed supply chains that will ensure access to food, 449 00:51:58,810 --> 00:52:07,120 whether that be through, for example, direct acquisition of land, but also contracts in the private market. 450 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:12,670 And that's one way in which one example of the way in which these countries will be able 451 00:52:12,670 --> 00:52:21,520 to achieve some sort of form of climate resilience in the face of various problems. 452 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,830 And in that sense, we should really kind of make a distinction between, for example, the very wealthy states of the region. 453 00:52:26,830 --> 00:52:34,060 So, for example, someone like UAE or Qatar and, you know, the poorer states of the region, 454 00:52:34,060 --> 00:52:39,220 and there is a huge inequality in terms of how they will be able to cope with these problems. 455 00:52:39,220 --> 00:52:52,750 So for example, in terms of spikes in food markets that may be maybe in the future could be caused by, um, you know, climate events, droughts, 456 00:52:52,750 --> 00:52:58,180 for example, the some of the Gulf states will be able to respond to that quite successfully, 457 00:52:58,180 --> 00:53:03,090 or they will be able to respond to poorer states will not. 458 00:53:03,090 --> 00:53:14,700 So I think that's the kind of material feature that I'm describing here, but there's also a kind of discursive question of images as well. 459 00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:16,680 And a more political question. 460 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:23,190 And I think again, some of these projects that are being discussed are not really about sort of some of the material outcome. 461 00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:25,830 They're actually just about, you know, 462 00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:36,040 laundering image and creating the appearance of progress and all the kind of techno political aspects, some of which I've described. 463 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:42,430 OK, thank you very much, Christian. That was an excellent presentation, and you got a good audience and great question. 464 00:53:42,430 --> 00:53:47,230 Very good questions. We've come to the end of our hour. 465 00:53:47,230 --> 00:53:53,290 And so on behalf of the Middle East, senator, I want to thank you very much for participating in our seminar. 466 00:53:53,290 --> 00:53:58,700 It was a great presentation, very thought provoking, and we hope to see you again. 467 00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:03,730 Well, we hope to see someday and present. I'm sorry, I couldn't be there in person. 468 00:54:03,730 --> 00:54:10,780 Sorry, we're OK. And with that, I say goodnight to our audience and to our speaker. 469 00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:14,450 And again, thank you very much for participating in our seminar. Thank you very much. 470 00:54:14,450 --> 00:54:24,168 Thanks to everyone for their questions and thanks for attending.