1 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:11,530 Look, good evening will make a start. Welcome to Friday night seminar here. 2 00:00:11,530 --> 00:00:20,530 A Middle East sentence, nonsensical as my name is Michael Willis. I'm director of Middle East Centre and we are very pleased to welcome all of you, 3 00:00:20,530 --> 00:00:26,470 our friends and colleagues here in this lecture theatre in Oxford and also our many friends and colleagues, 4 00:00:26,470 --> 00:00:30,490 online opposition parents still in which things from all over the world. 5 00:00:30,490 --> 00:00:40,150 So welcome to evening. Those of you who have been attending this is the sixth of our weekly series, all Friday seminar series. 6 00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:48,070 Those of you who have been attending throughout this term will know that this series so far has focussed on research 7 00:00:48,070 --> 00:00:57,010 and publications and books being written by members of a modern Middle Eastern studies community here at Oxford. 8 00:00:57,010 --> 00:01:02,320 Now this evening, we have a lecture by someone who, although part of another university community, 9 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:08,350 we still very much like to play as a member of the academic family here at the Medical Centre. 10 00:01:08,350 --> 00:01:16,870 Professor Joseph Sassoon is director of the Centre for Contemporary Arab Studies at Georgetown University in Washington, DC and states. 11 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:20,380 But much more importantly, he is a graduate of this college. 12 00:01:20,380 --> 00:01:27,760 non-Sunni, where he completed his defender, is also a longtime friend and supporter of the Middle East Centre, 13 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:35,650 where he sits on the Middle East Centre's Advisory Board and Nancy's College, of which he is a foundation fellow. 14 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:44,800 Most of you will probably be aware most of were aware Joseph took his work on board in Iraq, notably his. 15 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,160 Well, Saddam Hussein's Baath Party inside an authoritarian regime where he used the 16 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,020 released the documents that were taken in Iraq after the invasion of the oil, 17 00:01:55,020 --> 00:02:03,930 the with all the details of the Baath Party and wrote a fascinating internal history of the Baath under Saddam Hussein. 18 00:02:03,930 --> 00:02:10,020 He also wrote a book on the Iraqi refugees the first decade of the 21st century and more recently, 19 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:17,100 his book Autonomy of Authoritarianism in the Irish Republic has become a mainstay of bibliography and, 20 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:20,970 of course, reading lists which seek to explain authoritarianism and region. 21 00:02:20,970 --> 00:02:27,840 And it had several occasions where people, I've had the unusual experience of somebody saying that they've heard of the book 22 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,770 that I wrote and then said it because it was mentioned in Joseph's testimony. 23 00:02:31,770 --> 00:02:37,350 So thank you very much, Joseph, for giving me a little bit of a break, even though thank you. 24 00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:41,130 I've certainly definitely got more coverage. Thanks to you, but thank you very much. 25 00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:46,260 Now, this evening, we will hear we are here to hear Jose introduce and speak about his new book, 26 00:02:46,260 --> 00:02:50,670 which moves away from a more contemporary focus of his recent research and 27 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:55,170 writings to look at the remarkable history a branch of his own extended family. 28 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:59,880 As Joseph will say, it's not the direct family, but the branch of his own extended family. 29 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:05,220 The book is entitled Global Merchants, the Enterprise and Extravagance of the Sassoon Dynasty. 30 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:12,780 Now, if you would like a copy, we do have copies outside and you'll be most welcome to buy them as after the after the session. 31 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:16,530 Now, I don't want to give too much away about the book before. Just speak. 32 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:21,600 Suffice to say that it maybe is an absolutely fascinating story that's told out in the book. 33 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:31,200 Moreover, it encountered rather appropriately in a college Porter's lodge here in Oxford that George Joseph will say something about that. 34 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,590 It's also a story that has many connexions to the family history of all. 35 00:03:35,590 --> 00:03:37,950 Our Dear Emeritus Fellow at the Middle East Centre. 36 00:03:37,950 --> 00:03:48,690 Professor Avi Schlamme, who like Joseph, also hailed from Baghdad and who has been writing, also writing himself about his own family's history. 37 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:56,580 So therefore, we are delighted to have Avi join us and helped us discuss Joseph's books, which we will do after Joseph is spoken. 38 00:03:56,580 --> 00:04:01,800 So will be. Joseph will start and speak about the book. 39 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,700 Then we will have Avi and Joseph discussing the common themes within it, 40 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:13,170 and then we'll open it up to questions and discussion to the audience, both here in Oxford and to those of you online. 41 00:04:13,170 --> 00:04:20,640 If you would like to ask a question or make a comment online, please use the Q&A function that you'll find on Zoom. 42 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:27,930 Just type in your question. You can you can leave your name or or not be autonomous, 43 00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:32,850 and we'll process that which you use that you can put back in at any time will draw on that when you have time. 44 00:04:32,850 --> 00:04:38,550 But you don't. You haven't come here to this debate. We had to hear about Joseph Joseph. 45 00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:50,190 Thank you. Thank you very much, Michael. And it is absolutely wonderful to be back here where I feel it's really on every book I've after coming out. 46 00:04:50,190 --> 00:04:59,670 It has been connected to here. It did start this book somewhere else, not maybe at some time to me, but at all souls. 47 00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:06,900 But there is also a culprit here sitting in the front row who has been pushing me for the last seven years. 48 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:12,570 That is Eugene Rogan to write the book. 49 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:23,520 The book has really many facets the life of al-Baghdadi, Jewish family trade and colonialism, family rifts and issues facing dynasties, 50 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:31,860 globalisation in the 19th century and what it meant for global trader Anglicised Nation and the desperate need 51 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:41,220 for immigrant families to be accepted in New Orleans and why some dynasties decline and others continue. 52 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:45,120 But I thought, as this talk is part of the Middle East Centre, 53 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:53,820 it is only appropriate to focus on the first feature being the Baghdadi family and the connexion to their place of birth. 54 00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:59,160 But I will also talk briefly about trade and a few other aspects. 55 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:07,680 There are many characters in this book, but five main figures successively take centre stage. 56 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:20,370 David Sassoon, the first the founder of the dynasty, his eldest son Abdullah, who later on in the 1870s becomes Sir Albert, his second son, Ellis, 57 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:30,510 who built the business in China, and Farha, who later changes her name to Flora, the first woman in the family, to run the global business. 58 00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:38,940 And finally, Sir Victor Cecil, who presided over the business in the last twenty five years. 59 00:06:38,940 --> 00:06:43,820 Other characters include Sir Philip Sassoon, Siegfried. 60 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,820 This is the famous World War one point. 61 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:57,140 And, of course, other siblings of Abdullah and yes, and their descendants, one of the things that really led me to, as Michael mentioned, 62 00:06:57,140 --> 00:07:07,760 to move a little bit from authoritarianism to talk about this is the incredible trove of documents that I have found. 63 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:15,530 The family seems to have kept every scrap of paper in their archives stretch for more than 100 years, 64 00:07:15,530 --> 00:07:22,190 and they engaged in copious correspondence, both for business and social matters. 65 00:07:22,190 --> 00:07:33,560 Almost all the business correspondence, at least until 1920, was written in Baghdad Jewish to prevent outsiders from reading their letters. 66 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:40,500 Family members used their dialect, but wrote it in Hebrew characters jumping from one subject to another. 67 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:46,970 You could see there are no paragraphs. It's formal in the beginning. 68 00:07:46,970 --> 00:07:54,380 Very respectful. But by the third line, criticism between one brother to another. 69 00:07:54,380 --> 00:08:02,090 Complaining about different issues. Reputation of the family was off at most importance. 70 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:12,770 Interestingly, most of the social news within the family was in English, particularly towards the end of the 19th century. 71 00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:21,350 Let me just talk a little bit about Baghdad because the family lived in Baghdad for almost two thousand five hundred years. 72 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:31,580 But the early 19th century conflict with the governor who was embezzling taxes led Share Sassoon with father, father of David. 73 00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:42,170 The one show his picture of the founder to leave Baghdad with his eldest son after a year in Bushehr in southern Iran. 74 00:08:42,170 --> 00:08:48,620 He died at his family, now headed by the oldest son, David moved to Bombay. 75 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:55,460 There have been many erroneous versions of why David and his father shift system fled Baghdad. 76 00:08:55,460 --> 00:09:03,440 These versions, even repeated by members of the family research in the Ottoman archives, 77 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:11,540 clearly debunks the idea that anti-Semitism was the reason for the escaped Baghdad and 78 00:09:11,540 --> 00:09:17,120 its merchants suffered all from all religions suffered at the hands of a corrupt one. 79 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:24,680 Even though Pasha, who was known to embezzle money from these merchant families and if they refuse, 80 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:29,900 would arrest one of the sons until he received his rights. 81 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:42,440 Indeed, David was arrested to put pressure on his father, Peter Robinson, and when David was really fled, immediately followed by his father. 82 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:51,320 All David's siblings stayed and lived in Baghdad, and I am the descendant of one of those siblings. 83 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:58,670 It seems that during the year it was sheer father and son learnt about commercial opportunities 84 00:09:58,670 --> 00:10:06,800 in Bombay from visiting British officials and from traders based around the Persian Gulf sports. 85 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:16,760 Bushehr itself was slowly emerging as a commercial port and a bustling centre for the East India Company in Persia, 86 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:23,420 with Indian merchants passing through and shipped through on ships flying the British flag. 87 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:36,530 All this allowed the system to learn about India in general and Bombay in particular, when David Sassoon arrived in Bombay sometime in 1832. 88 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:48,530 It began a new chapter in the history of the system spanning Bombay is inhabited at the time numbered no more than 200000, but were very diverse. 89 00:10:48,530 --> 00:10:53,840 Hindus, Muslims, Parsis, Armenians, Portuguese and Jews. 90 00:10:53,840 --> 00:11:03,830 There was a Jewish connexion with Bombay from the 16th century as one of the eminent Portuguese traders residing in Bombay was a Jew. 91 00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:13,460 But there was no community until the second half of the 18th century when four different migrations came to the city. 92 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:25,690 The first? All their native due cast, known as the banana thread, the second was Arab Jews from Ottoman provinces of Baghdad, Basra and Aleppo, 93 00:11:25,690 --> 00:11:38,100 and the third was coaching Jews from the Malabar coast and the forth were Persian speaking Jews from Afghanistan, Woollahra and Mashhad in Iraq. 94 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:47,730 The migration of Arab Jews was strictly based on economic reasons to take advantage of commercial opportunities in India. 95 00:11:47,730 --> 00:11:53,640 Documents show that these Jews arrived in the last couple of decades of the 18th century. 96 00:11:53,640 --> 00:12:05,010 Prominent amongst them was a member of the well-known Basra family of gigabyte's later intermarried with Sassoon by the early 1830s. 97 00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:13,740 There were approximately 20 to 30 families of a total Jewish population of about 2000, 98 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:19,500 and these families call themselves quote Jewish merchants of Arabia, 99 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:32,160 inhabitants and residents in Bombay, and to quote one transfer to the city in 1837 estimated the number of Baghdadi's A 350, 100 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,140 which represented less than one percent of the total population. 101 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:50,410 Later on, Arab Jews were referred to erroneously as the Baghdadi Jews, irrelevant of where they came from as long as they were from Moslem country. 102 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:54,070 While David did not have any experience in trading, 103 00:12:54,070 --> 00:13:06,400 he benefited from two intangible assets extensive contact in the first year as a result of the family's involvement for many years in collecting taxes 104 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:19,150 for the Ottomans so far in the province of Baghdad and their good reputation about amongst the merchant families in the Ottoman Empire and Iran. 105 00:13:19,150 --> 00:13:29,110 Yet in spite of all this preparation, it must have been daunting to take this young family and siblings across the Arabian Sea 106 00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:37,180 to a foreign city where no family member resided and far away from home in Baghdad. 107 00:13:37,180 --> 00:13:41,410 Family was of immense importance to David Sassoon. 108 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:48,400 His first wife died at a young age in Baghdad after burying him two sons and two daughters. 109 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,880 His second wife, who outlived Haiti, gave birth to six sons and four daughters. 110 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:06,490 Those are survivor. So in essence, you have a little army of 14 children who are spread around the globe. 111 00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:18,010 The sons were trained in business from their youth and were later sent to different locations such as Baghdad and the Gulf Port to meet other traders, 112 00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:23,170 gain experience and learn Arabic. Once in Bombay, 113 00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:32,860 David realised the fate and success of the family had to be tied to the British Empire and the firm of David Sassoon and 114 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:45,030 Sons began a long connexion serving British colonial economic and political interests wherever they had branched out. 115 00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:51,300 Although the founder, David Cecil, neither set foot in Britain nor spoke English. 116 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:57,900 David Sassoon was granted British citizenship in recognition of his service. 117 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:07,050 He was fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, Persian and Turkish and learnt to study but never learnt English. 118 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:14,040 Twenty years after his arrival in Bombay, he swore the oath of allegiance to the British, 119 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:19,200 and he still had not learnt enough English to sign his own name. 120 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,270 It was son Ebru. 121 00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:33,820 Growing up in the Ottoman Empire, you never understood why his oath of allegiance was not only to a sovereign but to the East India Company, 122 00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:43,280 which control India at the time. Despite his identification with the British and loyalty to the Empire, 123 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:54,420 even when he began to attend ceremonies where British officials noted his generosity, he invariably replied in his native air. 124 00:15:54,420 --> 00:16:04,020 It is really important to underline that Arabic was very important for the first and second generation of this sort. 125 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:14,450 His son, Abdullah, who inherited David, was not different in this regard, in spite of his keen interest in all things British. 126 00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:22,450 Arabic remained his primary language, and he insisted that his family and employees learnt well. 127 00:16:22,450 --> 00:16:30,520 In one letter, he mandated that all clerks in Bombay be able to write in error in another year, 128 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:39,520 surprise and irritation at the inability of any of the clerks in Hong Kong to write the language properly. 129 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:48,110 This is by 1890. David was, by nature, risk averse and studied every possible difficult. 130 00:16:48,110 --> 00:17:02,930 In 1843 44, he said his second son is to explore the possibility of expanding into China after spending time in Canton, Hong Kong and Shanghai. 131 00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:10,900 And he is reported back on the tremendous opportunities in this enormous new country. 132 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:25,090 This coincided with the end of the first autumn, with the first Opium War, 1839 1842 and the opening of Shanghai to foreigners in the early 1850s, 133 00:17:25,090 --> 00:17:32,770 and he settled in Shanghai and began reporting daily to his father in Bombay. 134 00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:40,720 The year 1858 was an important turning point in the destiny of the show's descendants. 135 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:51,730 Two major events occurred the legalisation of opium in China and the dissolution of the British East India conflict. 136 00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:59,770 The latter followed the empress had done any expected Indian rebellion against the British 1857, 137 00:17:59,770 --> 00:18:08,440 after which the British government took control of India opening free trade to Indians and foreigners. 138 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:17,190 This allowed families such as the sisters to capitalise on the vast commercial opportunities in. 139 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:24,390 The spread of the family was so why this is a map of where they really spread around. 140 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:30,630 You could see there is major city port. The three in red are the major hub. 141 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:39,870 The first hub was Bombay and the second hub was Shanghai and the third one was in London. 142 00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:47,070 I think it is really important to deliberate the relationship between the family and British imperialism, 143 00:18:47,070 --> 00:18:53,670 as this needs to be seen in the context of a new immigrant family who landed in 144 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:58,770 a foreign country that was governed by the most powerful country in the world. 145 00:18:58,770 --> 00:19:08,120 The British Empire and the East India Company, which ruled India, as I mentioned, until the end of the 1850s. 146 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:15,950 This issues were not only immigrant family, but there were also a part of the truly small minority. 147 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:24,830 And interestingly enough, other minorities were not racist migrants to Bombay, such as the. 148 00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:35,170 Also identified with British colonials. Let me turn and talk a little bit about the business. 149 00:19:35,170 --> 00:19:42,260 On two commodities changed Bombay financially and led to the rise of a new global market. 150 00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:49,090 Carter and Opium Zone David Sassoon was not involved in those commodities initially. 151 00:19:49,090 --> 00:19:51,560 He monitor closely the trading scene. 152 00:19:51,560 --> 00:20:02,530 In fact, his name is not mentioned in the archives or local newspapers throughout the 1830s and most of the 1840s. 153 00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:10,180 David Caecilians, right to be amongst the top businessmen of Bombay, was a slow and gradual. 154 00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:15,370 There was not a one event or trade that changed the picture rather. 155 00:20:15,370 --> 00:20:26,170 But he kept developing a network of local and foreign traders and trustworthy counterparts and learning not only where the opportunities lie, 156 00:20:26,170 --> 00:20:31,090 but also out of trade and negotiations. 157 00:20:31,090 --> 00:20:40,120 He would spend days, for example, by the cotton exchange talking to traders agents and scrutinised international news. 158 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:48,560 Careful. David was convinced to enter the cotton market by witnessing the surge in demand for Indian 159 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:56,930 Carter after the panic caused by the failure of American Corp in late eighteen fifties, 160 00:20:56,930 --> 00:21:02,960 powerful trade circles such as the Manchester Chamber of Commerce had recognised 161 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:08,990 India could displace America as the most important source for this wide goal. 162 00:21:08,990 --> 00:21:18,580 But until 1850s, high transportation costs made Indian cotton less attractive. 163 00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:29,290 The outbreak of the American Civil War and consequent collapse of American exports of cotton provoked skyrocketing prices and a frenzy of 164 00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:41,560 speculation as when backyard milk cotton shipment changed hands many times between inspection before delivery to factories with each exchange, 165 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,290 a small profit could be made. 166 00:21:44,290 --> 00:21:53,860 The value of carton more than quadruple in the first two years of the war, pushing Indian peasants to increase their production. 167 00:21:53,860 --> 00:22:01,600 There was even rumours that people were tearing apart their mattresses and selling the cartel. 168 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:10,570 Before long, however, there were signs that the market was losing steam and too many traders had too much thought. 169 00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:17,650 The explosive growth of cotton in India had been matched in other countries, such as Egypt and Brazil. 170 00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:24,060 And global oversupply was a major concern. By 1865, 171 00:22:24,060 --> 00:22:31,350 reports began to circulate that cotton traders were experiencing big losses and that the steep 172 00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:41,650 fall in prices was creating havoc as traders did their utmost to lock and load unload their stock. 173 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:54,100 A year later, reports carried details of a bomb page devastated financially, with estimates of almost 80 percent of traders filing bankruptcy, 174 00:22:54,100 --> 00:23:00,610 as one brother admitted to another brother that he could not sleep for worry and opined 175 00:23:00,610 --> 00:23:07,090 that every member of the family had to be vigilant in order to avoid large losses, 176 00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:16,590 since that would damage the most important element in their business, their reputation, which was sacrosanct. 177 00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:18,240 The violence went in, 178 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:29,100 causing a crisis illustrates how global merchants conducted their business in the mid-19th century without a vast communications system. 179 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:37,040 The Telegraph was becoming available. It was very expensive and not confidential. 180 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:45,080 The business was set up, so each major hub had its own house and each house made independent decisions. 181 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:57,990 The relationship of trust amongst the branches allowed these family members to prosper, but it also led to constant recrimination and friction. 182 00:23:57,990 --> 00:24:09,600 Information was accordingly at the core of the most merchant's activities, exacerbating the scarcity of reliable information. 183 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:18,330 Were they employees or agents working for the merchant but selling the information to a competitor? 184 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:32,080 And here really where this decision handed out advantage with their own language because all their documents were unreadable to anyone else? 185 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:44,350 Also, because of this emphasis on the information, David was the first merchant in India, the time to send their son to London. 186 00:24:44,350 --> 00:24:55,000 This really proved to be critical as the son had more information about the ongoing of the American Civil War than those in India, 187 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:04,190 which gave the family an advantage. Volatile time is needed, nerves of steel and experience, 188 00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:13,940 what is really remarkable was the young the sun sent to all the corners of Asia to run the business. 189 00:25:13,940 --> 00:25:19,820 For example, India's when he was Senate, the first time to Shanghai, he was about 16 and a half. 190 00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:34,440 17 year old son running Hong Kong in 1864 was 24, while the one in Shanghai, Sulaiman, was only 23 years old. 191 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:48,210 I tried to tell this to my students. There is no doubt that British imperialism and colonial interests for China to purchase opium. 192 00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:55,830 This is just probably began trading in the 1840s after India arrived in China. 193 00:25:55,830 --> 00:26:04,860 And initially, there were very small players in comparison to some Indian traders or British firms such as Jardine Matheson, 194 00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:11,870 but only slowly later, the sessions became a significant part of the trade. 195 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:20,210 While opium had been used for thousands of years in India and China, both for medical and recreational use, 196 00:26:20,210 --> 00:26:31,670 the British victory in the Opium War opened the door to the export of large quantities of Indian opium to China. 197 00:26:31,670 --> 00:26:37,040 This became an internet, an integral part of a triangle trade. 198 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:42,080 British people had become addicted to cheap and developed a taste for Chinese, 199 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:54,110 so that had nothing to export to China and enrich richer opium filled the gap for decades and made up 16 percent of its total revenue. 200 00:26:54,110 --> 00:27:04,320 It also became the world's most valuable traded commodities in 1860 and remained so for a quarter of a century. 201 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:13,680 In the words of one Indian scholar, Bombay became a great commercial and industrial centre thanks to the opium business. 202 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:21,840 Another star argued that quote without the drug, there probably would have been no British Empire. 203 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,790 And of course, maybe that's a little bit exaggeration since. 204 00:27:26,790 --> 00:27:34,410 The story of opium is woven in throughout more than 60 years in the life of the Sassoon Dynasty and their 205 00:27:34,410 --> 00:27:42,300 role in the opium business in India and China is in it its tricky oblique tied to the family's success. 206 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:55,830 By the 1850s, opium had become an integral part of the family's trading business, particularly after its legalisation in eighteen fifty eight. 207 00:27:55,830 --> 00:28:00,810 The Sons, as you can see in the map, branched out to Singapore, Rangoon, 208 00:28:00,810 --> 00:28:08,520 Nagasaki, the other port cities and according to the Jardine Matheson Archives. 209 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:15,630 This is Jones adopted to cut opium prices, providing loans to producers in India, 210 00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:24,780 making bulk sales at low rates, combined with advances to Chinese dealers and probably most effective, 211 00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:33,960 advancing as much as three quarters of the cost to Indian dealers willing to consign shipments on a regular basis. 212 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:42,610 And this strategy proved to be. Traders, whether off of you more caution, 213 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:51,490 prefer to deal with this spills because of their willingness to pay up to 50 percent of the value of the merchandise. 214 00:28:51,490 --> 00:29:00,750 Furthermore, the family works hard to maintain its relationship with its partners. 215 00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:08,370 The opium trade began to weaken by the 1890s due to international and regional factors. 216 00:29:08,370 --> 00:29:16,330 Opium is a case study of how intergalactic politics were during global expansion. 217 00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:20,190 I guess still today, consistent from the beginning, 218 00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:30,620 the sisters mustered all their connexions and political clout with the British government to ensure favourable opium trade terms. 219 00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:37,600 It was intertwined with the British ideology of free trade and its colonial policy. 220 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:48,650 This issue's build strong relations with British politicians and senior officials to aid in keeping up the trade. 221 00:29:48,650 --> 00:29:54,800 Faced by political agitation, by both the House of Commons and House of Lords, 222 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:01,130 the British government did what governments do best when tough decisions need to be made. 223 00:30:01,130 --> 00:30:11,420 It form a commission of enquiry to study the subject in detail, thereby delaying the need for immediate action. 224 00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:21,570 The commission collected incredible amounts of data gather witness responses from a large array of individuals. 225 00:30:21,570 --> 00:30:30,030 Narration, the finished report is seven volumes, a total of two thousand five hundred pages, 226 00:30:30,030 --> 00:30:38,250 and it is one of the most prised sources on opium in all its features during the 19th century. 227 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:44,380 But the commission reached the following conclusion. 228 00:30:44,380 --> 00:30:52,390 As a result of a searching enquiry and upon a deliberate review of the copious evidence submitted to us, 229 00:30:52,390 --> 00:31:03,970 we feel bound to express our conviction that the movement in England in favour of active interference on the part of the Imperial Parliament for 230 00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:18,070 the suppression of the opium habit in India has receded from an exaggerated impression as to the nature and extent of the evil to be controlled. 231 00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:31,720 The gloomy descriptions presented to British audiences of extensive moral and physical degradation by Rokia have not been accepted by the witnesses. 232 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:40,690 Representing the people of India, nor by those most responsible for this government of the country. 233 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:45,610 This was truly an incredible conclusion. 234 00:31:45,610 --> 00:31:57,370 Effectively, after six years, the commission ruled or removes the opium question from the British public agenda for another 50 years. 235 00:31:57,370 --> 00:32:04,930 The view of the Indian government prevailed for financial reasons and for the empty opium lobby. 236 00:32:04,930 --> 00:32:13,610 This was a severe blow after it felt it had garnered support politically and public. 237 00:32:13,610 --> 00:32:20,300 Though the battle was lost in 1895, the war was not over on both sides. 238 00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:26,620 And this saga continues after the World War One. 239 00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:34,450 In spite of the stigma attached to the trade and the growing opposition in the second half of the 19th century, 240 00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:41,770 this assumes that other traders continue to defend the trade and attempt to put a halt to restrictions 241 00:32:41,770 --> 00:32:50,260 imposed by China that has shown a facade of Bombay's trade came from opium even before the subsumes arrived, 242 00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:59,560 and the families simply viewed it as a viable trading business imitating successful local and foreign traders. 243 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:08,860 This assumes our guys are also totally void of any self-criticism or doubt about the effects of opium. 244 00:33:08,860 --> 00:33:18,850 Apart from opium and cotton, the other main commodities that they traded were still indigo, rice and pearls. 245 00:33:18,850 --> 00:33:32,850 They were never in the money lending business, but they invested in different banks in India, Persia, Hong Kong, Shanghai and the UK. 246 00:33:32,850 --> 00:33:39,000 Overall, the family was fortunate to have other major factors working in its favour. 247 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,150 Global commodity prices began to warm the second part of the 19th century as 248 00:33:45,150 --> 00:33:52,680 industrialisation and economic growth were taking place in the major economies of the world. 249 00:33:52,680 --> 00:34:04,090 The British ideology emphasised free trade, guided the government's policies worldwide and facilitated the operation of global trading. 250 00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:17,790 And lastly, the development of transport within and outside India, particularly the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869. 251 00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:20,130 This commercial success continued, 252 00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:28,680 in spite of the risks and splits within the family that followed the death of the founder, David, so that's in the book. 253 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,560 I'm not going to talk about it. I just want to make a very few general remarks. 254 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:46,650 One is the connexion to Hollywood, and Baghdad was almost there amongst the first and second generations of this system, even in the 1850s. 255 00:34:46,650 --> 00:34:56,190 They were still referring to Bombay as Benedict in is one of the English for religious questions or issues. 256 00:34:56,190 --> 00:35:02,160 They turn to Baghdad and its rivals, and even in later decades, 257 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:12,870 when the system intermingled with the English aristocracy and married outside the Baghdad Jewish circle, there were reminders always of their rules. 258 00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:17,370 This is their crest, and around 1888, a double up. 259 00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:22,860 By then Sir Albert wanted to imitate the European families. 260 00:35:22,860 --> 00:35:31,410 So as you can see the top of the crust, there is the Hebrew words and that they will now. 261 00:35:31,410 --> 00:35:35,550 And then the Latin at the bottom can be a constant, 262 00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:45,310 with candour and consistency at first being used actually by the Earl of Coventry a century and a half early. 263 00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:54,610 David probably would have approved of the primacy of trust and reputation and perhaps also the palm tree, 264 00:35:54,610 --> 00:35:59,620 which the press carried as their reminder of their Baghdadi roots, 265 00:35:59,620 --> 00:36:10,010 but also the fact that date palms were crazy both in the Bible and the Koran and became symbols of beauty and plenty. 266 00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:21,240 The coat of arms was later added to many of the family's buildings in Bombay and London, and also to the grave of the founder. 267 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:27,630 What is really intriguing, Daryn? Hundred and thirty years old art archives, 268 00:36:27,630 --> 00:36:38,190 there was not once a question whether the family should deal or not deal with someone because of religion, sex or nationality. 269 00:36:38,190 --> 00:36:44,760 One question with always in the archives was, OK, can we trust this trader? 270 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:55,680 And this, to me, was the real true globalisation of open borders and where they dealt with every sect and religion. 271 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:07,180 And part one last part. Philanthropy and actually, they initiated a very, very innovative method. 272 00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:19,420 They charge a philanthropy tax on every trade they get, whether that trade was profitable or not illegal. 273 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:28,300 There are traders. Are there accounting legit? You see, you know, the cost of the purchase, the maritime tax, 274 00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:38,440 the insurance tax and then the the the philanthropy of zero point two five quarter of one percent at the end of the year. 275 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:44,740 Of course, there were hundreds of trades, a lot of money accumulated to be given, 276 00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:51,520 and there a policy was to give only in the places where they were or were. 277 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,930 So local communities benefited. 278 00:37:55,930 --> 00:38:01,670 But also, as did the poor and young in cities such as Bombay. 279 00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:05,260 It's one last word about the decline. 280 00:38:05,260 --> 00:38:16,690 I'm not going to go to detail, but suffice to say that I believe that one of the main reason was their loss of their Arab Jewish identity. 281 00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:22,990 Anglicised, the Asian and the desperate need to be fully accepted by the English aristocracy 282 00:38:22,990 --> 00:38:28,570 led them to drift away from their traditions and from their businesses. 283 00:38:28,570 --> 00:38:33,100 Even though you're in their fancy estates, more interested in parties, 284 00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:40,780 horse racing and hunting than dealing with the dramatic changes that were taking place around the globe. 285 00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:50,840 Thank you. Thank you very much indeed, Joseph, for a fascinating lecture. 286 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:59,990 There is so much in the book, but of course you could only cover some of the main things, and I'm very glad you did mention the decline at the end. 287 00:38:59,990 --> 00:39:08,660 Just because one of the most fascinating parts of the story about how things rise, but also happens relatively quickly is sharp. 288 00:39:08,660 --> 00:39:15,380 And I like to invite ambition to join Jose to have a discussion about some of the themes in the book. 289 00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:20,780 As I mentioned earlier, there are many overlapping themes between Abbey's family history and jobs. 290 00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:23,960 It's both hailing from Baghdad. 291 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:33,590 Perhaps how would you like to start by just a few comments on your own, having read the book and the sort of things the residents to achievements and. 292 00:39:33,590 --> 00:39:43,680 Thank you, Michael. Very glad we're back to stop having a few problems having read the book from cover to cover and having 293 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:54,530 heard just this a week when you were at the seekers and having with some of the reviews of his book. 294 00:39:54,530 --> 00:40:01,840 And so I would like to say is how impressed I was. 295 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:15,700 With this book, it's so deeply researched, it's so elegantly written and it's beautifully produced, which makes it a real, real pleasure to read. 296 00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:23,890 And Joseph writes with, Well, I knew that he was trained in this college as an economic historian. 297 00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:31,900 So I had no doubt that he did really well with the context, with the backdrop, with globalisation. 298 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:45,610 But I was really impressed by the sensitivity and skill with which he tells the story of this remarkable dynasty and the story of the people, 299 00:40:45,610 --> 00:41:01,220 the individuals, the business, as well as the role that they played in Iraq, in Britain, in India and in China. 300 00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:10,590 There are many merits to this book, and I could go on for a long time, but I would like to single out one factor that makes this book unique. 301 00:41:10,590 --> 00:41:19,410 And this Joseph linguistic skills as a friend of St. Anthony and a fellow of the Middle East Centre, 302 00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:30,450 I have always valued the importance of languages in writing about history in the social sciences. 303 00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:37,680 For 25 years, I was an active member of the Department of Politics and International Relations, 304 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:48,920 where it was possible to write the DPhil thesis on a country without knowing the language that's bad enough. 305 00:41:48,920 --> 00:42:01,400 But in America, it's even worse, much worse, because some American Department of Political Science supply the Sydney Verb Group Sydney 306 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:12,080 verb was this distinguished social scientists and the verbal said that no Ph.D. student, 307 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:29,660 no graduate student should be allowed to write a Ph.D. on a country unless he or she had flown at least twice, apparently now to turn to the book. 308 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:37,700 I have quite a lot of questions. One question is, you're a member of the dynasty. 309 00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:48,650 You modestly describe yourself as a descendant of a modest branch of the dynasty, which stayed behind in Baghdad. 310 00:42:48,650 --> 00:42:52,850 How does your own connexion with the dynasty? 311 00:42:52,850 --> 00:42:58,580 How did it affect you if it did in any way? 312 00:42:58,580 --> 00:43:10,640 I actually never had kind any emotional attachment to that, and I really approached it as as a historian from the beginning. 313 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:21,980 As I mentioned, the only and only reason that I was willing to engage with it is really when I found these archives, which had not been used. 314 00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:30,320 I actually anyone who reads the book will realise I'm very harsh on the family and in many instances, 315 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:38,930 sometimes maybe even comes across that I didn't like one or two personalities. 316 00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:49,640 But it it it really did not affect me. I didn't feel emotionally at times that if I read more about, you know. 317 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,140 Negative aspect that is going to be reflecting, I did not think about it that way. 318 00:43:57,140 --> 00:44:11,420 OK. There is something specific to this biography, and that is the piece, it's a collective biography of a dynasty of a family. 319 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:19,430 In this respect, it's unlike a traditional biography which is of one person. 320 00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:24,230 I myself have written the biography of King Hussein of Jordan, 321 00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:33,110 and I found it quite easy to write a biography rather than writing a more general book because you had a clear focus. 322 00:44:33,110 --> 00:44:44,870 There was one person, and it was easy to decide what to include and worked to to know what not to include in the account. 323 00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:49,280 If the person that you are writing about was involved or was affected, 324 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:57,500 then you would write about the episode about that and otherwise you would leave it out. 325 00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:04,490 But one thing about the collective biography you must have been a lot more complex and more difficult. 326 00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:14,720 Yes, I agree. Not only that, but you know, one of those main characters was kind of omitted by the other people. 327 00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:25,400 So there are two books on this. One was published in the 1930s and one was published by a journalist in the 1960s. 328 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:32,480 These two books in one book in Hebrew, basically talk about Farha. 329 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,220 Three Lions only get six pages to her husband. 330 00:45:37,220 --> 00:45:44,930 Well, when you start going through the archives and you see the incredible amount of correspondence, 331 00:45:44,930 --> 00:46:00,110 and I you know that I really was one of the things that came across here is actually is the first global C woman that run a global business in 1895. 332 00:46:00,110 --> 00:46:11,090 It was really unheard of. There are a lot of other matriarchs, but not a running a day to day business in a global order. 333 00:46:11,090 --> 00:46:15,500 And that was really total. I mean, I tried to do it. 334 00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:21,350 You know, there is a huge amount about Victor Sassoon, and he left incredible amounts. 335 00:46:21,350 --> 00:46:34,160 So his diaries still exist from the 1920s until literally the day before he dies in the early 1960s. 336 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:41,930 And he has cut every press that talks about, Hey, you know, it really depends. 337 00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:46,820 Of course, we don't have a lot about the film or it's it comes across. 338 00:46:46,820 --> 00:46:55,670 And they didn't start this intensive correspondence until the 1850s when all the sons spread around, 339 00:46:55,670 --> 00:47:04,250 because in the beginning, they were all working from one single office in Bombay, so they didn't really have correspondence. 340 00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:11,690 So it was a problem. It was not easy allocating as much material to each one of them. 341 00:47:11,690 --> 00:47:22,550 I talked about the importance of languages, but I forgot to say why I made this. 342 00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:29,820 The reason was because I wanted to point out that. 343 00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:37,200 Most of the correspondence of the family was conducted in Arabic, it's Hebrew script, 344 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,600 but the language the content is today Arabic, which is the Baghdadi dialect. 345 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:56,490 Arabic is written in Hebrew letters, and it's hard enough knowing Arabic and Hebrew, and Joseph is fluent in Arabic and in Hebrew, 346 00:47:56,490 --> 00:48:09,030 and he can read Jordan Arabic, so he's uniquely uniquely qualified to have been able to do the research that went into this book. 347 00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:16,380 And the result is the very, very rich material that no one else could have accessed, except you. 348 00:48:16,380 --> 00:48:26,070 So I forgot. I'm sorry. I forgot to say that I also want to pick up on something that you emphasised in the talk. 349 00:48:26,070 --> 00:48:32,820 And that is, the students were not expelled from Baghdad. 350 00:48:32,820 --> 00:48:42,330 They were not the victims of persecution or anti-Semitism emphasise this because one of the reviews says that there was a 351 00:48:42,330 --> 00:48:53,910 pogrom against the Jews and there wasn't a room that in fact Iraq was the model of harmonious Muslim Jewish relations. 352 00:48:53,910 --> 00:49:11,190 My family enjoyed or benefited from the long tradition of religious tolerance and good relations between Muslims, Christians and Jews in Iraq. 353 00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:20,490 The Jews were not. We're one of many minorities, unlike Europe, where the Jews were. 354 00:49:20,490 --> 00:49:25,080 And there was a Jewish problem. There wasn't a Jewish problem in Iraq. 355 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,160 So what would you like to say a bit more to against this notion? 356 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:35,040 Well, your persecution in the talk. I mean, there is no such a thing. 357 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:43,230 And I think the one, you know, there are two erroneous versions, one that they left because of cholera, 358 00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:47,190 which there was cholera, but they didn't leave the cause of cholera. 359 00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:57,810 And if you're leaving the conflict fleeing a country because of cholera, you don't take only one son and leave another three there. 360 00:49:57,810 --> 00:50:14,880 The second is is the fact. Again, it was really targeted because of this conflict with the wali, who was very corrupt rather than and before the wali. 361 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:25,200 The father was the SIGGRAPH Bashi or the tax collector on behalf of the Sultan in Baghdad, 362 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:31,290 which is that was a very they're basically the finance minister in the province. 363 00:50:31,290 --> 00:50:38,070 So it was a very prominent. But when are corrupt wallet came in? 364 00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:52,760 He needed to start trying to raise money for his own little army and, you know, adventures, which at the end afterwards, the sultan pushed him out. 365 00:50:52,760 --> 00:51:02,110 There are many biographies of Ashkenazi Jews and European and North American Jews, 366 00:51:02,110 --> 00:51:11,020 many autobiographies, but there are very few autobiographies of Sephardi Jews. 367 00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:20,560 And in this respect, you. Your book was an eye opener about the world of Sephardi Jews. 368 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:32,070 There is the. A view of the dominant view of Jewish history, the lachrymose version of Jewish history, which is Jewish history, 369 00:51:32,070 --> 00:51:41,850 which consists of a never ending chain of discrimination, persecution, violence culminating in the Holocaust. 370 00:51:41,850 --> 00:51:50,610 And this version of history probably fits the history of the Jews in Europe, 371 00:51:50,610 --> 00:51:57,720 but it most certainly doesn't fit the history of the Jews in the Arab lands. 372 00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:05,930 Were you conscious of contribute to something which is relatively rare, which is about Iraqi troops? 373 00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:20,490 Well, I really didn't know because, as I said, even the sons talks about feeling it because of, you know, anti-Jewish feelings in Baghdad. 374 00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:28,950 And it's only when I, you know, working through the Ottoman archives that it became clear and the correspondence, 375 00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:35,850 because at some point it was a report it to the to the sultan that this is what happened. 376 00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:46,440 And, you know, two years later, actually the the governor was deposed off of his place. 377 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:55,440 I mean, I think it is very interesting and I talk about it in the aspect of anglicised Asians in many ways. 378 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,310 Also, the Baghdadi Jews, especially like the Sicilians, 379 00:52:59,310 --> 00:53:09,990 were better accepted in England than the Rothschilds, which is really interesting because for two reasons. 380 00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:21,690 One, I think that the Rothschilds were looked upon as nouveau riche, you know, the new wealth, and they should not be part of the aristocracy. 381 00:53:21,690 --> 00:53:30,820 And to all the prejudices of being in the banking and lending business, the systems were. 382 00:53:30,820 --> 00:53:34,720 Exactly the opposite, they were not in the money lending business, 383 00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:43,270 but also they were treated from the before as an aristocracy that they were aristocrats in the sense in Baghdad. 384 00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:49,150 I talked about it the other day and I mentioned, I think it's interesting. 385 00:53:49,150 --> 00:53:58,120 Usually you read stories of rags to riches. It's actually riches to rags, riches and then decline. 386 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:10,330 It's almost four ways way each. Well, on the British Connexion, this is a really important dimension of the story. 387 00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:22,030 It's the British connexion is relevant to the rise of the dynasty, the success of the dynasty and finally to the fall of the dynasty. 388 00:54:22,030 --> 00:54:27,040 So it's all along in in your book. 389 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:34,890 And I'd like. I don't spell out. Dwell on worry. 390 00:54:34,890 --> 00:54:42,420 The British connexion was so important for the rise of this dynasty and to suggest that it is because 391 00:54:42,420 --> 00:54:52,050 the British in the Empire preferred minorities to the mainstream and for a number of reasons. 392 00:54:52,050 --> 00:54:58,140 One was education in Iraq. There was a very good Jewish educational system. 393 00:54:58,140 --> 00:55:04,110 Is elite universal. My mother went to the school for girls. 394 00:55:04,110 --> 00:55:16,230 Everything was told through the medium of French, and she came out everything the very good French, English, Arabic and Hebrew. 395 00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:23,670 So the Jews in Iraq knew languages, but also they were a minority and therefore not likely, 396 00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:32,280 not less likely to be swayed by the currents of Arab nationalism and more dependent. 397 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:42,240 So would you agree that this is part of the explanation of why this assumes we're talking about a hundred years before all Arabs? 398 00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:48,870 I mean, there were part of the Ottoman Empire so that it has to be taken in in context. 399 00:55:48,870 --> 00:56:00,480 I think that definitely the identification also from their point of view, they arrived into, as I said, into a foreign land, into a foreign city. 400 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:09,300 And so the immediate thing is to identify with the most powerful country in the world. 401 00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:13,620 I think that death and their interests were aligned. 402 00:56:13,620 --> 00:56:27,330 I mean, as I met, talked about it, there is the free trade policy, which was more an ideology rather than a policy on this expansion of global trade. 403 00:56:27,330 --> 00:56:30,120 Everything came fitted with their interests. 404 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:43,200 There was definitely an alignment, but also the feeling of, you know, I am the family identified with the most powerful power that existed. 405 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:51,990 I think with the decline, it almost went to the extreme of desperately wanting to be part. 406 00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:58,590 And once they became part of the aristocracy, after all, they gained many titles. 407 00:56:58,590 --> 00:57:05,790 Some of them, you know, like Philip Sassoon, became undersecretary for the Air Force. 408 00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:19,140 He was the secretary of Lloyd George, you know, and then others, the son of another son from another brother became an MP. 409 00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:21,810 So you have these different things. 410 00:57:21,810 --> 00:57:32,610 And of course, intermarriage Jane intermarrying with the Rothschilds and Ginsberg and all these dynasties, they now entered a different world. 411 00:57:32,610 --> 00:57:42,480 I mean, if you take it to the extreme of the fourth generation, the generation of Siegfried Sassoon and Philip Sassoon, 412 00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:56,220 one person like Siegfried Sassoon never knew who was Jewish and definitely didn't know that his father was born in India from a Baghdadi origin. 413 00:57:56,220 --> 00:58:07,680 Philip Sassoon didn't want to be identified, and when you went to visit as undersecretary for the Air Force to Iraq, he met with the in. 414 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:17,250 He met with King Faisal, but didn't bother to meet with anyone of the family that was there on, on and on. 415 00:58:17,250 --> 00:58:25,350 There was, by the 1930s old kind of signals that on on the coat of arms that I showed, 416 00:58:25,350 --> 00:58:30,870 they started erasing the Hebrew words because they wanted just the Latin. 417 00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:40,320 They started saying, when people ask them, they are originally from Toledo in Spain because Spain sounded nicer than Baghdad. 418 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:45,960 Right? So I think it's really the first true generation. 419 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:51,390 The Baghdadi Jewish context was so fundamental and critical to them. 420 00:58:51,390 --> 00:58:58,770 It was the exact opposite by by the fourth generation in the afterword. 421 00:58:58,770 --> 00:59:03,510 You reflect on the causes of the decline of the university. 422 00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:11,010 And just now I need you to dwell on the fact that they moved to England and emulated the 423 00:59:11,010 --> 00:59:17,770 upper classes and became a bit like them instead of being industrious and disciplined. 424 00:59:17,770 --> 00:59:22,350 Yeah, they the dissolute life of pleasure. 425 00:59:22,350 --> 00:59:33,620 They became the feet. Another factor that you deal with is poor tax planning. 426 00:59:33,620 --> 00:59:39,010 If they all have, they had fabulous wealth and they all had wills. 427 00:59:39,010 --> 00:59:45,700 But some of these wills wounds were good and weren't very tax efficient. 428 00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:53,290 They were very generous. So in some of the wills, the list of beneficiaries was about four pages, 429 00:59:53,290 --> 01:00:04,060 which reminded me that in our community, where there is a wiggle there a lot of relatives. 430 01:00:04,060 --> 01:00:08,080 Yeah, I mean, there are really a number of factors. 431 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:14,800 I actually also say that at the end of the day, taxation was not the main reason for their decline, 432 01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:23,890 but it definitely I think there was something fundamental that it's the planning at the beginning with trust didn't take place, 433 01:00:23,890 --> 01:00:31,240 unlike, let's say, the Rothschilds and each generation when the father died. 434 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,840 And if you have six children and no one is working. 435 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:50,450 Well, it as first you paying 50 percent and in death duties and then the other 50 percent is split amongst six or seven children. 436 01:00:50,450 --> 01:01:02,590 And since none of that was more, one can afford to buy these beautiful houses that they acquired in London and the estates. 437 01:01:02,590 --> 01:01:08,630 And it's really it's the absolute kind of, you know, 438 01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:20,420 almost model of how wealth get dissipated each generation as you start spreading and becomes smaller and smaller units and each unit, 439 01:01:20,420 --> 01:01:25,610 then in one more generation gets again split and so was nothing. 440 01:01:25,610 --> 01:01:31,700 I mean, at some point they have these and I have in the book descriptions of some of the 441 01:01:31,700 --> 01:01:39,050 fancy houses that they have in London and in the country and even in Scotland. 442 01:01:39,050 --> 01:01:45,530 But none of them was left because each generation had to get rid of them, to sell them, 443 01:01:45,530 --> 01:01:54,650 to pay for the taxes and to split it amongst a number of children or sometimes siblings. 444 01:01:54,650 --> 01:01:58,280 And that is not a good, a good way to maintain wealth. 445 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:08,690 Sassoon Square, also known as the Rothschilds of the East, and you compare them to another rich dynasty, the Canaries. 446 01:02:08,690 --> 01:02:17,740 And you have a passing comment to the Lehman Brothers in America. 447 01:02:17,740 --> 01:02:23,940 So this opens up the much bigger question, why the question and you don't have to answer. 448 01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:33,920 But was there anything in the Jewish makeup that explained the success of these things? 449 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:43,880 I don't know about that. I mean, I think it's a matter of I argue in the book, it's not only about, you know, being astute and a good trader, 450 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:53,150 but you have to be in there to have to be lucky, to be in the right place at the right time and being in in India the right time. 451 01:02:53,150 --> 01:03:01,310 It was all kind of factors that work to their, you know, the American Civil War comes in. 452 01:03:01,310 --> 01:03:09,050 As I explained and called on prices, quadruple opium becomes a legal commodity. 453 01:03:09,050 --> 01:03:17,210 The Suez Canal is opened and suddenly trade routes are cheaper and faster on and on. 454 01:03:17,210 --> 01:03:21,050 I mean, you have to know how to take advantage of it. 455 01:03:21,050 --> 01:03:26,150 And that's. You know what happened? They did. 456 01:03:26,150 --> 01:03:36,860 Thank you, Jessica. Thank you. Time for a few questions, both from the audience here and hopefully online to open up to the audience with Typekit. 457 01:03:36,860 --> 01:03:48,530 Thank you very much. Obviously, we still trust this wonderful book because I saw the two generations of my family, Bombay, 458 01:03:48,530 --> 01:03:59,210 have grown up with hearing about interacting with some boxes and possibly library system estate, one of which still bear their names, needs to exist. 459 01:03:59,210 --> 01:04:06,500 So it's a very real living presence in that city. But apart from that, I had a couple of questions. 460 01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:11,390 So my first question has to do with your account of what the students brought 461 01:04:11,390 --> 01:04:16,650 with them from Baghdad that allowed them to assume their initial prominence. 462 01:04:16,650 --> 01:04:26,000 And you you suggested that this was the reputation and the contacts they had through the Ottoman Empire and in the Persian Empire as well. 463 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:34,200 So when they move to India and then further eastwards, which in non ottoman lands without those contacts, 464 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:43,340 do they continue that model of, if you will, networks and connexions that allow them to repeat their success? 465 01:04:43,340 --> 01:04:50,000 Or is there something new that happens? And do they become part of another kind of, if you will, economic logic? 466 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:57,640 And the second question has to do the reasons for the decline that you mentioned. 467 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,340 And I take your point. 468 01:05:00,340 --> 01:05:10,600 But it also strikes me as equally important that these sort of family based firms tend not to survive more than a few generations. 469 01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:15,100 That's true of the big Indian Parsi Hindu-Muslim firms as well. 470 01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:26,120 And I've always been surprised by the fact that unlike in England or in America, they tend not to end up as joint stock companies in. 471 01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,560 Of the kind of East India company was leasing companies, arguably the first joint stock company. 472 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,790 So there you have the model of more modern capitalism. 473 01:05:34,790 --> 01:05:42,930 But interestingly, it has not taken up by vernacular, a capitalist vernacular merchants until very recently. 474 01:05:42,930 --> 01:05:49,130 And in India, even today, it's still family firms that last two or three four generations. 475 01:05:49,130 --> 01:05:58,010 The Tatas are the only ones practically who have actually moved in the direction of corporate direction in that sense, which is not family controlled. 476 01:05:58,010 --> 01:06:06,870 So I was wondering if that has something to that plays a role and attached to this question is one about laws of inheritance. 477 01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:14,210 So we know that with Indian mercantile families, including very big ones. 478 01:06:14,210 --> 01:06:27,530 It's the nature of the the law, as it was known or community specific law that determined the success or failure of of the families concerned. 479 01:06:27,530 --> 01:06:33,650 So with Sharia, with the splitting up of the inheritance, every generation, that was a major problem. 480 01:06:33,650 --> 01:06:39,320 And, you know, Muslim traders had to figure out how to how to circumvent it with the Hindu law. 481 01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,920 There's a joint family and how to deal with that. 482 01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:54,140 Was there something along these lines or was this issuance entirely eventually sort of removed from any kind of Jewish law when they say, 483 01:06:54,140 --> 01:06:59,550 moved to England? Thank you very much for these questions. 484 01:06:59,550 --> 01:07:07,920 Yes, the answer to the first question about her reputation conduct is absolutely and categorically yes. 485 01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:13,980 Even when they were dealing with totally new people and the archives has a lot, 486 01:07:13,980 --> 01:07:19,950 so I didn't realise, you know, in Carlton, there was a lot of forgeries. 487 01:07:19,950 --> 01:07:25,500 Basically, people add water agents to the courtroom, 488 01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:40,620 so it spread and and but it's when it arrives it to the final destination and a few times the orders came back from a ballot, you know, forget it. 489 01:07:40,620 --> 01:07:51,280 Pay them back everything that they paid. It's not their fault because our reputation and we want to have this contract intact. 490 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:52,710 And that really, 491 01:07:52,710 --> 01:08:03,510 really stayed until kind towards the end when when they stopped in this trading business in one of the things is they never made those contracts, 492 01:08:03,510 --> 01:08:11,100 you know, so that that's why the incredible amount of trust becomes so critical. 493 01:08:11,100 --> 01:08:21,360 It's very interesting because by the 1860s 70s, a lot of the British firms, even before that insisted on contract. 494 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:30,300 The system never wanted to sign contracts because they really said, it's our reputation and your reputation. 495 01:08:30,300 --> 01:08:39,750 That, to me, also was the most incredible thing is how in that world, without internal and without telegraph and without communication, 496 01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:48,420 people still knew, you know, who has a good reputation in Zanzibar and who does not have a reputation. 497 01:08:48,420 --> 01:08:53,710 And it just continued throughout that time. 498 01:08:53,710 --> 01:08:58,530 The question is much more complicated about the different generations. 499 01:08:58,530 --> 01:09:03,330 I think there are families that kept it going on. 500 01:09:03,330 --> 01:09:15,660 The rules of inheritance, whether in India or Britain, was always the law of the land and not the religious law, unlike any Islamic countries. 501 01:09:15,660 --> 01:09:26,220 And I agree with you that in Islam, the inheritance that to really dissipation of wealth of of greater results, wealth. 502 01:09:26,220 --> 01:09:32,750 At some point in the 20th century, they began on a new trick which didn't work, 503 01:09:32,750 --> 01:09:40,980 but ended up being in court, and there is very interesting material on that of of court. 504 01:09:40,980 --> 01:09:52,770 They tried to claim that their residency was in India because they kept houses in India because I think at some point the death duties 505 01:09:52,770 --> 01:10:05,640 in the UK was about 60 percent in Britain and fifty five percent and even there was complaints in some of the was that £300000, 506 01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:18,030 which was a huge amount to the National Trust and was furious that even on that, you wasn't getting any exemption on that donation. 507 01:10:18,030 --> 01:10:22,380 I think it is harder to keep it after four or five generations. 508 01:10:22,380 --> 01:10:29,670 I mean, the Tatas are really exceptional, but there are more and more, maybe not in the huge wealth of, 509 01:10:29,670 --> 01:10:39,120 you know, the Rothschilds or the daughters, but there are quite a number who have managed to do it for Judah. 510 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:46,800 It's a tough question, and it's really tough how to take it from one generation to another and keep it. 511 01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:54,210 No question. Usually I'd like to pick up on one of the points that I've used to making in the course of doing the research for your book. 512 01:10:54,210 --> 01:11:00,690 You had some fantastic encounters. You got to meet some very, very interesting people are pursuing this story. 513 01:11:00,690 --> 01:11:06,510 And the one that struck me, Joseph, was when you went to Hong Kong to get access to the Canterbury archives. 514 01:11:06,510 --> 01:11:13,710 And so I'd like to bring the question back to the diaries, which we mentioned because there are still players. 515 01:11:13,710 --> 01:11:22,830 What has a sense of their position in Hong Kong suggest that families that they came after the system designed to stand, but they're still there. 516 01:11:22,830 --> 01:11:26,910 And so as one talks about the decline of a family like disappearance, 517 01:11:26,910 --> 01:11:32,190 are there lessons to be learnt from those that have managed to adapt and survive and thrive? 518 01:11:32,190 --> 01:11:36,140 Is there something about the experience, the injuries that you could bring into your analysis? 519 01:11:36,140 --> 01:11:47,940 Yeah, I mean, is there experience is fascinating, but not only that they came after and and the founder worked at the caecilians until he left. 520 01:11:47,940 --> 01:11:56,790 But more than that, on when the last character you saw Sir Victor Sassoon in Shanghai. 521 01:11:56,790 --> 01:12:07,500 He left when World War Two broke out, and he also wasn't getting along with the Japanese, who invaded Shanghai in 1937, 522 01:12:07,500 --> 01:12:16,560 stayed behind and pretended he was going to be one of those peace mediator between the Japanese and the British. 523 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:30,690 If there is a lot about this in the book, but the most critical aspect he left before people were interned in Hong Kong and in Shanghai. 524 01:12:30,690 --> 01:12:42,060 The Canaries were interned for four years in a camp, first in Shanghai and then in Hong Kong, and lost everything. 525 01:12:42,060 --> 01:12:48,290 But in 1945, they started everything from scratch. 526 01:12:48,290 --> 01:12:54,110 And of course, they lost their assets in 49. You know, and in Shanghai. 527 01:12:54,110 --> 01:13:06,500 But the difference is is Vegas is soon sold all the agencies against the advice of his right hand man and wanted to go to the Bahamas. 528 01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:12,050 And of course, you know, I don't need to tell anyone what happened to Hong Kong. 529 01:13:12,050 --> 01:13:22,190 If you had real estate and businesses and contacts in 1946 to roll it 50 years later, 530 01:13:22,190 --> 01:13:31,760 and that was a huge I think really what differentiates is the personalities and the entire person 531 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:36,770 was interested in the family and the business and determined to create it in one business, 532 01:13:36,770 --> 01:13:44,090 another who was a playboy who wanted just to run away and become an international figure. 533 01:13:44,090 --> 01:13:58,430 And when that didn't happen, he moved on to to settle in in in in the Bahamas and do horse racing, which he won the derby four times. 534 01:13:58,430 --> 01:14:05,090 But as I argue, he bet on the wrong horse at the time. 535 01:14:05,090 --> 01:14:14,070 Thank you, Joseph. Sadly, we've come to the end of our time for our session paper, but I thank you very much for giving Oxford and your ordeal online. 536 01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:22,520 Finally, we invite you to join us next week where we will have a panel on the crisis in Syria. 537 01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:29,210 But I'd like you to please join me in thanking Abby for joining us and particularly for the Jews. 538 01:14:29,210 --> 01:14:35,300 It is such a wonderful lecture and being able to even talk about this new book, which I encourage you. 539 01:14:35,300 --> 01:14:46,374 All of you have probably been failed outside. Thank you very much for speaking.