1 00:00:06,340 --> 00:00:12,560 Well, I'm really delighted, and you can join us for the book launch, but one of our colleagues to look at. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,830 So Rafael is a senior research fellow in the $468 relations gearbox. 3 00:00:17,830 --> 00:00:24,310 He's also an associate researcher at the University of Denmark and a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics. 4 00:00:24,310 --> 00:00:28,510 Rafael Central Research Interests, if you don't know, I'm guessing, were to get its way. 5 00:00:28,510 --> 00:00:37,510 There is a changing nature of Sunni Muslim Middle East, with the particular focus on the Levant as first book on that subject from the ashes of Hamas. 6 00:00:37,510 --> 00:00:44,170 The Muslim Brotherhood in Syria was published in 2013. Profiles published a number of other journal articles, 7 00:00:44,170 --> 00:00:53,020 but chapters including I Like People such date 19 pieces of the general elections specialist also knows a lot about left. 8 00:00:53,020 --> 00:00:54,580 Besides his academic work, 9 00:00:54,580 --> 00:01:01,240 Rafael actively engages with Arab and Western policymakers in matters of political and security developments in the Middle East, 10 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:06,100 and he is a non-resident fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. 11 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:13,660 Today, we're delighted to host Rafael to hear about his latest book, Jihad and the Militant Islam and Contentious Politics, 12 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:19,730 the journal recently published by university professor Rafael Lorsqu'ils. 13 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:26,090 Thank you so much for the introduction, and thanks as well to my crew for the invitation to do so. 14 00:01:26,090 --> 00:01:32,960 This presentation to be talking about the sentiment and we're all familiar with armed Islamism. 15 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:45,640 And that's the title of my talk suggest idea arguing that it's less about religion or ideology that will sink local politics and local dynamics. 16 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:52,180 So this is the structure of the talk. I'll start with a broad introduction to this troublesome. 17 00:01:52,180 --> 00:01:57,310 What I mean about how it's being analysed so far. 18 00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:05,040 And then I spend the rest of the term kind of pushing back against ideological explanations. 19 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:12,150 I do this by going into one of these terms to argue, in particular, the Taliban movement. 20 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:13,770 This is a group I know quite well. 21 00:02:13,770 --> 00:02:24,580 I spent seven years, seven years researching and going through its archives, interviewing 200 of its former fighters and their opponents. 22 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:30,940 And what struck me when I did research was how the group recruited when, expectedly Islamists, 23 00:02:30,940 --> 00:02:37,750 but also what we may call no Islamists, that is fighters in local communities and neighbourhoods. 24 00:02:37,750 --> 00:02:46,400 We're not particularly pious or religious observance and never really developed a strong commitment to science ideology. 25 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:57,070 So explaining why and how he wanted to recruit these fighters and why these fighters ended up joined the group and then I finished the book, 26 00:02:57,070 --> 00:03:04,760 I wrote in an interview to see whether this story can tell us anything more generally about Islamism. 27 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:13,690 So let me jump in to the topic of Islamism. What does this term even mean to begin with? 28 00:03:13,690 --> 00:03:19,450 Well, by that term, I mean, the spectrum of all groups involved in civil wars, 29 00:03:19,450 --> 00:03:27,360 which featured an explicitly religious Islamic rhetoric and agenda, as you can see from the chart on the right. 30 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,940 On the Islamism is a phenomenon which became quite important in the 1970s, 31 00:03:32,940 --> 00:03:39,780 which really saw an exponential growth in the 2000s and 2010s and indeed back years. 32 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:47,160 Islamist groups have become the dominant actors of the civil wars, which have erupted in Iraq, 33 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:54,740 in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, money and so on and so forth. 34 00:03:54,740 --> 00:04:02,060 Remember, these groups included Kyra Iceman's and their myriad local branches, but not on. 35 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:05,690 There are also dozens of less radical Islamist groups, 36 00:04:05,690 --> 00:04:15,410 from Hamas to the Syrian Brotherhood to an Islamic movement and others to the bottom of the extremism has grown considerably in the past decades, 37 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:21,090 and related to this is the question of its resilience. 38 00:04:21,090 --> 00:04:25,320 Indeed, the question of the resilient Taliban are back in power. 39 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:31,420 Islamist rebels ousted from Syria after 10 years of brutal civil war. 40 00:04:31,420 --> 00:04:42,910 ISIS and al Qaeda are resurgent in Africa. You may have heard of their growing rural insurgencies from Burkina Faso in the Congo to Mozambique. 41 00:04:42,910 --> 00:04:51,490 This resilience is happening precisely as governments have spent massive amounts of resources trying to shoot them. 42 00:04:51,490 --> 00:04:57,450 So what are the armed Islamists since especially resilient? 43 00:04:57,450 --> 00:04:59,970 With that, of course, many possible answers, 44 00:04:59,970 --> 00:05:08,790 but the prominent argument his condition is that these groups are resilient because their fighters are religious zealots, 45 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:15,010 people, fighters prepared to die for the sake of God willing to be monsters. 46 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:25,890 So this perspective essentially makes the assumption that religion or ideology is a sexual motivation of these groups and of the members. 47 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:31,670 Of course, this explanation can have some analytical traction in some cases. 48 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:41,460 Think of the case of foreign fighters suicide missions, but overall it is quite restricted perspective. 49 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:55,670 And it is a perspective which overlooks the fact often these Islamist armed groups recruit not Islamists or not, primarily driven by ideology. 50 00:05:55,670 --> 00:06:03,240 Take the case of Tara Sharon. The Syrian rebel group you may be familiar with is under it's worth noting 51 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:10,500 that the Nusra Front and which nowadays controls most of northwestern Syria. 52 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:14,670 Of course, some of the group's members and especially its leaders, 53 00:06:14,670 --> 00:06:22,920 do have a long history of Islamist militancy and a very strong Salafi jihadi credentials. 54 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:30,960 But what is striking is the group's willingness and ability to recruit fighters in local communities, 55 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:41,200 that's primarily driven by ideology that is specific to China's marginalised neighbourhoods of its sometimes entire villages. 56 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:50,230 On the right of the slide, you can see the picture taken just a month ago of the leader of the Irish Sun Abu Mohammed in Sudan, 57 00:06:50,230 --> 00:06:58,900 meeting up with informal community leaders in the province of Italy, where the group is strong and trying to win their support. 58 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:09,300 You can see from the picture. These are not Salafi jihadi community leaders, but as their attire suggests, tribal elders. 59 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:17,520 Now, the point that I want to make in this book is not to argue that ideology doesn't matter, it does matter to some extent, 60 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:26,850 which is to argue that the excessive focus on religion and ideology has led us sometimes to overlook some of the local dynamics, 61 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:36,670 which also end up shaking these groups. That is what I mean with the title of my talk, all jihad is local. 62 00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:46,780 But let us down for a little bit more deeply now into how these dynamics all played out in the case of what on in parts of Europe, 63 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:57,850 the target movement. But you can still slide on those pictures of military parade by the group in the city of Tripoli. 64 00:07:57,850 --> 00:08:02,050 There was an Islamist armed group. 65 00:08:02,050 --> 00:08:09,700 Which operated out of this city, mainly in the city of Tripoli during the Lebanese Civil War of the nineteen eighties. 66 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:18,280 Tripoli being the second largest city of Lebanon and as you can see from a place very across the Syrian border. 67 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:26,870 And so effectively a place under the Syrian Army's occupation during the conflicts of the 80s. 68 00:08:26,870 --> 00:08:31,880 And the one aspect which really struck me when I did research on this is how 69 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:39,040 this group of two to three thousand fighters achieved major military success. 70 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:49,040 Fighters, the victims, the Syrian army out of Tripoli and the crackdown on local strong leftist militias. 71 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,150 So they ended up being defeated by the Syrian army three years later. 72 00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:58,240 But even that was after a long and bloody battle. 73 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:05,040 So what made the group so strong words, fighters so resilient. 74 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:11,790 We're sure this last drug was a factor to some extent. 75 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:24,860 Now he recruited the small constituency of longtime Islamists and activists who were ready to mobilise and to die for their ideology purposes. 76 00:09:24,860 --> 00:09:35,270 These militants were partially inspired by the leader of the revolutionary troupe and lightsaber from considering a rocket launcher. 77 00:09:35,270 --> 00:09:38,580 In the picture on the right. 78 00:09:38,580 --> 00:09:49,780 And they were also inspired by how terrorism chemicals sort of treatment and implemented what he called an Islamic Emirates. 79 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:58,540 This is a declassified cable by the CIA about the raid and whether it was clearly worried about the group. 80 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:04,270 Under some U.S. Islamic Unification Church, which is essentially everything you need, 81 00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:14,620 is under 17 machine data as transform troopers from one of Lebanon's most tolerant and heterogeneous urban centres into Lebanon's 82 00:10:14,620 --> 00:10:22,060 most autonomous instead of Christian charities applied the city's judicial system drugs and alcohol and been eliminated. 83 00:10:22,060 --> 00:10:32,850 Western dress for women was criticised in Typekit members and forced to fast during Ramadan and shuttering obstructed the constituents. 84 00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:45,550 There's no doubt about that. But what I found really interesting, I have to say during my research was the not stuck with there. 85 00:10:45,550 --> 00:10:53,450 It's also recruited many not so returning fighters in local communities and neighbourhoods. 86 00:10:53,450 --> 00:11:02,860 We were not particularly pious or religiously observant and never developed a strong commitment to Israel's ideology. 87 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:08,830 I was able to produce estimate where it was organised in distinct sections, 88 00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:14,770 and so it wasn't very hard with the help of many interviews and former members of the group and 89 00:11:14,770 --> 00:11:22,620 observers to reconstruct estimates of how numerically strong or weak each of the facts was. 90 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:31,980 And so there was a faction of approximately 600 fighters who came from one neighbourhood. 91 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:41,350 But it took them. These fighters were bands of youth locked, you know, ever with another neighbourhood. 92 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:48,830 And many actually drug alcohol. Another faction was made of another 600 fighters, who, for their part, 93 00:11:48,830 --> 00:11:55,720 had some districts of the Old City and of Mina, some of them took drugs and crime. 94 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:03,440 I must add a history of engaging in acts of urban unrest. 95 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:10,460 So why would he be interested in recruiting so heavily in these three local communities? 96 00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:21,110 We know his activism. This is a map of Tripoli to help you situate the neighbourhoods I'm talking about on the left is mineral rich, 97 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:25,040 as its name suggests, the districts of Tripoli. 98 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:35,150 Better to manage the northern enclave of the city and the Old City is Tripoli's historical sites of large neighbourhood. 99 00:12:35,150 --> 00:12:45,310 So why was it interested in recruiting so heavily in these three neighbourhoods with no activism? 100 00:12:45,310 --> 00:12:51,910 Well, the important thing to remember here is that the Islamists, like all rebel groups, 101 00:12:51,910 --> 00:13:03,410 must be said to differ from clandestine terrorist organisations in that they're often interested in conquering territory governing in accordance. 102 00:13:03,410 --> 00:13:10,430 Though, wasn't no difference. It's once it's Wall Street and create an Islamic Emirate there. 103 00:13:10,430 --> 00:13:17,000 But in order to do this, it had to eliminate its openness and to control the city. 104 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,150 This, of course, required manpower required fighters. 105 00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:28,520 And the problem is that centripetal the pool of military officers is actually quite small. 106 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:35,320 Sure, this is a city made up of 85 percent of Sunni Muslims, and many of them are pious, sometimes even conservative. 107 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:42,060 But that's not the same as being a veteran militant Islamists. 108 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:47,490 And you don't know which the fighters, it would have to mobilise local communities, 109 00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:54,510 sometimes most to Islamist activism, and that's including this freedom because I just mention. 110 00:13:54,510 --> 00:14:07,010 It actually sets eyes on these three neighbourhoods, especially, first of all, because they were large, so they offered a pool of potential recruits. 111 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:17,870 But beyond the need for manpower, there were also three more very specific reasons why he wanted to control these neighbourhoods. 112 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:26,970 One factor was politics. Remember that he injected the Syrian army out of chicken into it, had a target on its back. 113 00:14:26,970 --> 00:14:32,010 It knew that the Syrian regime would do anything to crush it, 114 00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:40,000 so it needed anti-Syrian Syrian regime recruits, whatever their ideological definitions, if they had hadn't. 115 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,350 It's in this respect which mobilising and then it made sense. 116 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:57,810 Had been the beating heart of the anti-Assad mobilisation of the 70s, and so politically by mobilising them in big trouble, right? 117 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:03,750 The reason we're sending a strong signal to the Syrian regime and a message that any 118 00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:12,400 attempt to launch a crackdown on the island will result in a long and bloody battle. 119 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:21,070 Another factor which may have started once mobilised this time in the city of Tripoli was the strategic factor. 120 00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:30,880 The group needed a high performance strategic location from which to ooze security and from defence and in the case of the Syrian attack. 121 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,500 In this respect, the authority city was extremely useful. 122 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:38,210 This is, as you can see from the picture, the right. 123 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:47,500 The neighbourhood made up of extremely narrow alleyways, essentially a maze of alleyways that are very hard to navigate, 124 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:52,150 except for I sort of got lost there many times in four hours sometimes. 125 00:15:52,150 --> 00:16:00,730 These are places, neighbourhoods and streets that are easy to defend and difficult to attack. 126 00:16:00,730 --> 00:16:11,170 It's also a neighbourhood which is very different from modern times, and so it is surrounded by gates and military towers. 127 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:18,190 And last but not least, the Old City is home to the castle, which you can see on the right. 128 00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:24,500 A high rise mediaeval fortress with long range cannons can be positioned. 129 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:36,730 In a nutshell, they're mobilising and giving city director access to strategy area from where it was able to dominate treatment of military. 130 00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:46,250 A final factor which played a key role in our heads must first win this time for the neighbourhood as minor was economics. 131 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:53,780 The group, after it gained control of Tripoli, needed resources in order to fight its openness and to govern the city. 132 00:16:53,780 --> 00:17:00,640 That's where it's interesting and that comes. Miller is the economic heart of treatment. 133 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:08,590 It's what actually happens. It's where international ships come and go, with goods bound for Damascus, 134 00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:16,120 Aleppo and Baghdad to Beirut, as the port of the capital has been disturbed. 135 00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:21,190 So this kind of potential was huge. 136 00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:22,720 Constrained the neighbourhood, 137 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:33,970 gaining a foothold in industrial a allowed to impose taxes on top national shipping and to make literally millions of dollars. 138 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:41,410 This, in turn, allowed them to buy weapons, provide small services to the local population. 139 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:50,880 Of course. And which patronage? In other words, it allowed them to consolidate its shore over treatment. 140 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,220 So to sum up, until now, 141 00:17:53,220 --> 00:18:03,420 for many reasons decided that his interest in co-opting local communities not primarily driven by the standards of Nigerian politics, 142 00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:09,090 military and a need for manpower for fighters. 143 00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:20,970 But what about these local communities that? Those who ended up joining Typekit, well, often known as I mentioned before, so why would an Islamist to? 144 00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:28,410 Well, to attract them, they're used to maintenance strategies. 145 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:36,370 The first strategy, too, was enlisting support from neighbourhood strongmen. 146 00:18:36,370 --> 00:18:43,960 Indeed, what characterises these three neighbourhoods is that traditional social fabric, 147 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:50,290 these are historically popular neighbourhoods with the presence of the state is very rich and 148 00:18:50,290 --> 00:19:00,090 where functional strongmen emerged to provide assistance and support services to local residents. 149 00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:11,700 This figure is good, although the average. And it is someone is trying to ends up being seen as the former leader of the neighbourhood, 150 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:20,090 someone who can often count on a huge local popularity and are hundreds of very loyal followers. 151 00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:29,720 The man you can see on the right path with the slogan is wonderful director with the extremely popular strongman of the neighbourhood. 152 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:39,150 But it's been in the 1970s and 80s. Charity was what we could call a champion of globalisation. 153 00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:46,830 Whenever you join a protest or was most to trigger the blood recruitment of hundreds of his own followers. 154 00:19:46,830 --> 00:19:55,980 In fact, when he was murdered in 1986, 50000 residents of the neighbourhood turned to funeral. 155 00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:02,490 This really shows the sheer extent professional potential. 156 00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:08,760 So what I did then was to recruit Cadillac Kerry on the right of the slide, 157 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:15,370 you can see the leader of Carnival side blessing in the background and his clerical outfit. 158 00:20:15,370 --> 00:20:21,150 These new popular recruits Cadillac himself wearing a leather jacket. 159 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:26,060 Of course, the proper attire of this is coming from the world. For his part, 160 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:32,720 drew attention to the Islamist group was the promise that it would become one of its leaders and 161 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:40,610 that you would benefit from Typekit protection in a local rivalry that you wasn't versed in. 162 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:50,920 Recruiting actually was a huge victory for Turkey. The group said that it became very strong about its where it could now mobilise freedom and 163 00:20:50,920 --> 00:21:00,400 starts recruiting hundreds of followers who went on to fight for their rights in two battles. 164 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:11,230 The interesting thing, though, is that according to dozens of interviews, I conducted imperative that it was sort of a terrible use of these recruits. 165 00:21:11,230 --> 00:21:17,530 They can shoot Islamists beds and they started looking like other members. 166 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:24,670 But you've really remained neighbourhood Islamists fighters, driven not by residual ideology, 167 00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:32,100 but rather by loyalty for their other day and by local turf wars. 168 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:39,780 The second strategy, which started just in order to go up and recruit local communities in these three neighbourhoods, 169 00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:44,980 was that it acted as a vehicle for social reasons. 170 00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:49,420 This three neighbourhoods, indeed, are literally Tripoli's most deprived alliance, 171 00:21:49,420 --> 00:21:56,100 with between 70 and 90 percent of the locals living in poverty or extreme poverty. 172 00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:57,960 And this. 173 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:11,020 These are areas where social anger had long been simmering, but today the austerity and meaner all had a long history of violent social rewards. 174 00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:16,300 Histories and traditions of outbursts of anger aimed at the treatment intelligence. 175 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:22,270 This is actually where anarchist militias and criminal gangs had previously recruited, 176 00:22:22,270 --> 00:22:29,140 including, most famously, the gang of the recruits, which can see a picture on the right. 177 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:36,040 It's years before the growth after he had recruited precisely in these neighbourhoods that recruited 178 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:42,070 the surveillance on the residents of these three neighbourhoods and for an entire year to gather, 179 00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:52,820 didn't violent targeting and blackmailing and extorting the triplet and none of us had been overturning Tripoli's social order. 180 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:58,040 And so this is something that David also did play into this. 181 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,560 She dreams of urban descent and this powerful local socio economic grievances. 182 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:12,980 It also provided a conduit for that expression. So on the one hand, the discourse becomes socially very little. 183 00:23:12,980 --> 00:23:19,000 But most importantly, on the other hand, it's actions actually to. 184 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,170 The group began to target Tripoli politicians and businessmen, regardless of how pilots actually work. 185 00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:33,320 And this attracted hundreds of local supporters in this deprived neighbourhoods. 186 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,760 Let's show. 187 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:46,490 The interesting thing is that very few of these sorority members to Islamists, the vote for the group whenever they were asked to, for sure. 188 00:23:46,490 --> 00:23:56,450 But the rest of the time they were dragging you into what you might call Social Jihad or acts of urban violence driven by economic grievances, 189 00:23:56,450 --> 00:24:07,590 most of them by ideology. And inevitably, this ended up elevating the well-connected superintendent. 190 00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:16,700 And so eventually, 1985. The representatives of the street management issued a statement imploring Hafez 191 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:24,030 al-Assad to send the Syrian army yet another time to try and stop him once and for all. 192 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:28,710 And this time this year, the army notes that in essence, 193 00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:38,860 it's mobilised as many as seven thousand soldiers to stay in Tripoli and try to enter NATO for 90 days. 194 00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:48,440 This last battle was not only in London, but also extremely bloody, with 600 killed in 19 minutes. 195 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,470 And with extolling the regime's was its route to the next part of treatment, 196 00:24:54,470 --> 00:25:01,070 its ability to mobilise not just the small pool of ideologically committed fighters, 197 00:25:01,070 --> 00:25:07,460 but also entire local communities with whole streets and neighbourhoods. 198 00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:12,070 This last ditch struggle? So. 199 00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:22,960 What are the takeaways for this local story? What can the story tell us more broadly about what we may call the matrix of obstacles 200 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,020 and more the ways in which actors navigate relationships with local communities, 201 00:25:29,020 --> 00:25:33,260 local identities. Local solidarity? 202 00:25:33,260 --> 00:25:45,410 Well, I think the story that's just to mention in this respect, which I'm sorry to say, it's more contemporary examples before briefly concluding. 203 00:25:45,410 --> 00:25:57,200 The first thing that story does is really to shed light on the myriad locally oriented Islamists out there. 204 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:08,210 When we think about the term Islamism, we do tend to spontaneously associated with transnational armed groups such as ISIS on Kader, 205 00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:14,270 all with national armed groups such as the Taliban, of course. 206 00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:18,680 But what it shows is the need for a third category, 207 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:26,720 the category factoring in the many armed Islamist groups which are international, not transnational, but local. 208 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:35,430 That is literally centred on the challenging the neighbourhood, the city, the village region. 209 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:41,740 What characterises these groups is that they are locally oriented in that demand 210 00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:46,890 gets to some extent with broader trends and with actors external to their ability, 211 00:26:46,890 --> 00:26:52,480 but ultimately deprioritized the local community. 212 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:58,810 We prioritised defence for the community of its integrity and its identity. 213 00:26:58,810 --> 00:27:01,480 These look ordinary entities, fans, groups. 214 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:11,200 I've actually become very prominent in the Libyan and Syrian civil wars where I suspect you would always be on this spectrum. 215 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:20,320 So I do think that it's important to recognise that and also to illustrate this with another example not drawn from Turkey 216 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:28,450 and the Black two talked for just a few minutes about the Derna Mujahideen Shura Council measures should I get one, 217 00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:43,300 which was a coalition of Islamist rebels in the region of Derna, which control this northeastern city of Raqqa from 2014 to 2018? 218 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:48,190 I was quite interested in the group three years ago, so I did a bit of research on it. 219 00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:57,380 And what struck me was how. The overarching goal of that group was explicitly local. 220 00:27:57,380 --> 00:28:02,000 Of course, this was an Islamist army which carried lots carrying out a lot of things, 221 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:13,770 but it was also a group which had vowed to protect the country, not protecting it from ISIS and from head start. 222 00:28:13,770 --> 00:28:16,770 In fact, that's changed its name. 223 00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:25,890 Back in 2017 into the General Protection Force, and so it was quite interesting that I was not able to research that enough, 224 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:31,920 but I knew quite a bit of that into the statements put out by this group. 225 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:37,740 And I was also again struck by how localised a lot of these statements were. 226 00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:44,020 These were statements that really could broader national or international issues. 227 00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:52,980 You were obsessed with all things Derna and their children's culture pages and pages, which the city's history, 228 00:28:52,980 --> 00:29:03,840 its identity picture its beauty and telling many of the statements ended with a sentence may God protect their. 229 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:13,470 I think this shows the relevance of factoring in local and oriental influences on this in our analysis of Islam. 230 00:29:13,470 --> 00:29:22,690 They are not for national or transnational groups, and this local state has to a great extent been. 231 00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:30,520 The second thing that story does is to illuminate the various ways in which the local 232 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:38,320 matters for the Islamists shows very clearly the range of reasons why Islamist armed groups, 233 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:46,240 including the most transnational ones, maybe interested in building up legitimacy in some local communities. 234 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,820 This will allow them to recruit, to govern and to hide. 235 00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:59,800 Of course, when these groups are on the decline. So the local system used by these groups as a tool. 236 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:08,360 The third story was just shows how the local can also affect the discourse on the behaviour of armed Islamists. 237 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:20,090 In fact, sometimes their vitals may reflect the priorities of local community groups that have been promoting Muslim ideology. 238 00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:24,020 But will you just try this with a case of ISIS? 239 00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:33,770 ISIS in the Syrian desert? No, this is not a group that is particularly well known for having tried to co-opt local communities. 240 00:30:33,770 --> 00:30:38,430 But there was an exception in the Syrian desert. I don't quite know why. 241 00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:43,460 Maybe the commander there was interested in doing that, maybe there were particular strategies. 242 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:50,960 I believe that's what is for sure is that when ISIS comes to the Syrian desert in 2015, 243 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:59,000 they're extremely strong bonds with the tribal elders of the town of as termed as desert is. 244 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:06,530 This vast stretch of desert land is of Homs, and it includes two main tunnels Suttner, 245 00:31:06,530 --> 00:31:11,420 which sees itself as the one which follows the Syrian desert and Palmyra, 246 00:31:11,420 --> 00:31:21,710 which in the past decades has been considered the true capital of the Syrian desert as a group led to a. 247 00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:31,340 And so. Looting itself lucrative in the town of a supermarket was very useful for ISIS because the balance of the 248 00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:40,070 time that created with the tribal elders made it possible for ISIS to recruit 2000 fighters in this town. 249 00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:45,620 But the interesting thing is that the risk was not just the tool for ISIS, 250 00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:52,670 it also ended up affecting disaffected discourse because after absorbing this, 251 00:31:52,670 --> 00:32:01,750 two-thirds of local recruits from a stop near the ISIS discourse in this area became shaped by the local identity. 252 00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:11,270 That's just what I started cutting talk stock market, capital of the desert and the title of that in decades previously had been 253 00:32:11,270 --> 00:32:18,170 reserved for Palmyra and ended up affecting the violence carried out by ISIS. 254 00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:26,120 Because when the size of the city of Palmyra a couple of weeks after recruiting the 2000 fighters, 255 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,020 it carried out a massacre of hundreds of residents of Palmira. 256 00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:32,940 And some evidence suggest that this massacre? 257 00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:43,960 Well, the monks of the local recruits devices from a tradition of inhabitants have been given as their rivals. 258 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:51,100 The strong bonds developed by ISIS with the tribal elders and communities of stockmen may 259 00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:57,560 also explain actually part of what the group is about the resurgence in this particular, 260 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:04,480 but it's not for everyone, but it is resurgence even amongst the tone of the. 261 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,660 So these bombs? There was a lot less to. 262 00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:15,320 So in conclusion. I've tried to do when the story is, of course, 263 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:24,080 to mention that since the seems to have often been up to be driven by region and ideology and also thought about that, 264 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:31,270 this is an important part of the story, but also to argue that it does everything. 265 00:33:31,270 --> 00:33:39,010 I've tried to propose changes perspective when exploring the microplastics of Islamism, 266 00:33:39,010 --> 00:33:46,390 when assessing the role of local dynamics in the behaviour and trajectory of these groups. 267 00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:57,310 The key finding of my research is that all Islamist groups are arguably affected by local conflicts, including transnational Jews. 268 00:33:57,310 --> 00:34:02,680 I think that this is interesting because not in and of itself for the local, 269 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:14,850 but also because from new insights into the range of motivations other than ideology which try and shape Islamism. 270 00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:21,790 Thank you very much. Thank you so much for a really stimulating. 271 00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:28,060 Everyone is going to be for some of us. So I got a question. 272 00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:38,080 Chelsea Wright, she's one of the reasons that it's why did ICE's franchise with the people so specifically and not with the people of Europe, 273 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:46,810 tumours of the surrounding villages? I have a couple of questions if I can abuse or should I wait for the second round? 274 00:34:46,810 --> 00:34:52,170 So I defer to senior question. Well, this a fascinating rule. 275 00:34:52,170 --> 00:34:57,840 Rafael, there is so much in that and again, a lot that just isn't, as you said, 276 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,950 these transnationally and even most at the national level, these local dynamics are absolutely crucial. 277 00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:13,170 If it's not going to breach. First one is I'm interested to see how do the genuinely Islamist leadership in some Typekit? 278 00:35:13,170 --> 00:35:22,110 How did they recognise and justify the integration of the indigenous and presumably behave in terms of drug taking alcohol, 279 00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:25,770 for example, continue to engage? Do they see it as the great trend? 280 00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:31,160 Is it justified in that sense? The other question I like to ask is, as you know, 281 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:40,970 I studied in the past with the business institute here and again very clearly local dynamics developed over time there, 282 00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:49,130 and there were two particular dimensions that developed, one of which seems to be operating here, but one not so. 283 00:35:49,130 --> 00:35:54,590 One is the element of turf war between other rival groups and not the rival, 284 00:35:54,590 --> 00:35:58,730 which is clearly what seems to be happening in Palmyra and in the desert in Syria. 285 00:35:58,730 --> 00:36:05,930 The other one that operates a lot in Algeria was the the economic domination in terms of racketeering, 286 00:36:05,930 --> 00:36:13,220 which local exchange control over local political economy through sort of almost mafioso style behaviour. 287 00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:17,620 Is that something that you see in any of these cases? That was definitely the case. 288 00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:22,300 But what developed locally in regions in Algeria? Thank you. 289 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:26,450 Yes, a great set of questions to start with. Thank you very much. 290 00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:33,650 So the question as to why did ISIS align with a soccer match this Egyptian premier? 291 00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:41,600 It's a great question, and I think it goes to the core of what ISIS has been very good at in the past decade. 292 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:50,810 It is a group that think strategically about the local and sort of notices communities which have grievances. 293 00:36:50,810 --> 00:36:59,450 And so I think the term the residents of a shop as a nation are residents who feel aggrieved 294 00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:07,310 because they've seen their rivals become an essential inhabitants of the capital of the world. 295 00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:14,870 The capital of the Syrian desert is an actual name that the Syrian regime against the Baath Party gets to the city of Palmyra. 296 00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:21,160 So the Baath regime has chosen Palmyra as its capital of the desert, 297 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:28,400 with the residents of the suttner felt grieved and marginalised and in fact, was done. 298 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:36,020 And so I think I think it's part of why ISIL's tried to build bombs in that city because this 299 00:37:36,020 --> 00:37:44,400 was a city with potential with grievances where people could be mobilised against others. 300 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:59,250 It partially links to ask Michael about why, rather, how does he justify the absorption of non-Islamists into the into the group? 301 00:37:59,250 --> 00:38:08,110 It's a very good question, and maybe I should have mentioned that in the tall, dark Phoenix list hopes that this nonsense will become strong. 302 00:38:08,110 --> 00:38:16,950 Recommendations raised all the time, and it was not just a matter of veterans that he invested cultural resources for 303 00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:23,550 the time back then into the three neighbourhoods where non-citizens were where. 304 00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:33,480 Of these mosques, it's a set of indoctrination camps and I you talked to instructors from this look trashy general and 305 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:40,710 we as fighters went through the camps on the other side of the camp as sort of attendees or students. 306 00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:48,240 It was clear from both perspectives that this didn't actually work out, really reproducing the results. 307 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:57,630 There were stories of Jews committed afterwards, but it was really the exception rather than religion. 308 00:38:57,630 --> 00:39:02,250 And so the bottom line is that I think that it was perhaps a bit naive, 309 00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:11,910 and Mitt's approach was actually to try to build on the ideological commitment of these students just the same. 310 00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:18,090 This is remember we're talking about a three year period, this is not a massively long amount of time. 311 00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:22,560 It was in contrast to results for years between 1980 to 1985. 312 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,920 So if it had stayed longer in charge of the city, 313 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:36,260 maybe there would be more cases of actual conversions over conversions to the strong brand of Islamism. 314 00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:41,000 The question you ask on racketeering, extortion and measures of behaviour. 315 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:48,620 Actually, the parallels with Nigeria in the 1990s are really fascinating story. 316 00:39:48,620 --> 00:39:56,840 This dynamic went very far indeed because once the resources to govern the city, 317 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:07,400 it was ready to strike back with a dagger as it were to ActionScript stables into each integrated into the group, 318 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:16,700 an actual criminal gang headed by a Christian who supposedly converted to Islam and then became an Islamist. 319 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:22,520 But again, that was that was not a case of sincere conversion to Islam. 320 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,500 What is the solution to terrorism? Essentially, 321 00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:37,100 the group's willingness to recruit anyone to bring in revenues so that it wasn't able to continue operating and govern the city of Tripoli? 322 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:42,780 Interestingly enough, this neighbourhood's getting edited by this attrition mechanism. 323 00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:49,230 This whole section should section. 324 00:40:49,230 --> 00:40:52,950 It ended up engaging in alcohol smuggling. 325 00:40:52,950 --> 00:41:01,260 And people say that the targeting there new, but that this was such a profitable business that they just let it happen. 326 00:41:01,260 --> 00:41:06,290 So it shows again the extent to which these local dynamics and sometimes simply 327 00:41:06,290 --> 00:41:10,730 the need for resources as your government and you need boots on the ground, 328 00:41:10,730 --> 00:41:15,210 we need manpower to provide services. We need to engage in patronage. 329 00:41:15,210 --> 00:41:20,670 And for all of this, you need resources wherever we come from. 330 00:41:20,670 --> 00:41:22,860 Thanks for being really enjoying the spectacle. 331 00:41:22,860 --> 00:41:29,670 I'm going to pass on some questions, so I've had some questions about the framing, which is about ideology. 332 00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:37,410 So the study is very well motivated by pushing back against explanations that are simply reasonable ideology. 333 00:41:37,410 --> 00:41:42,360 But let me be intelligent with respect to suggest that in many ways, 334 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:50,060 the modal approach of understanding political Islam is precisely to write out ideology from all of the accounts. 335 00:41:50,060 --> 00:41:51,450 So thinking here. 336 00:41:51,450 --> 00:42:01,620 So this is what, for example, from the early 2000s when she talks about it in the politics in which the universe splits ultimately about politics. 337 00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:06,710 I'm thinking here also Thomas Eric Duncan conspicuously recently, where he is going to go to the business. 338 00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:11,730 The dominant approach is that we try to use is that religion or ideology is like a rapper. 339 00:42:11,730 --> 00:42:18,060 But actually, the core of it is actually politics and economics, which is obviously an issue that seems to come out very strongly with new research. 340 00:42:18,060 --> 00:42:23,520 What I was kind of curious to hear about was about the ideology of taxes the beginning, 341 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:28,380 because I think you're absolutely right that true ideologues are very great regulation. 342 00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:33,600 They necessarily have to recruit the true ideal to be able to sustain a large force of movement. 343 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:41,240 But surely that kind of the cool country of the early risers, if you will, they presumably were more motivated by ideology. 344 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:47,070 And I was curious to hear what distinguished it from animal operable movements. 345 00:42:47,070 --> 00:42:51,900 If we think about political stuff as a spectrum. Where do they kind of sit on that spectrum? 346 00:42:51,900 --> 00:43:00,870 If you were inspired by it in their initial investment stage, I also wanted to pursue as well to think about this, this framing about politics. 347 00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:04,920 Presumably, you want to introduce this kind of radical groups. 348 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,810 Presumably, this is in large part a function of the development of the organisation at the time, 349 00:43:09,810 --> 00:43:17,490 but is to say that organisation is not necessarily so, and some become national and transnational. 350 00:43:17,490 --> 00:43:22,990 And so what? I was kind of curious to hear your thoughts on the counterfactual. 351 00:43:22,990 --> 00:43:26,880 Honestly, it's astonishing. How much did you find? 352 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,500 Could we imagine a version of the philosophy that was national or transnational? 353 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:36,940 And how then would that have changed these kinds of local dynamics or not? 354 00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:42,260 OK. Thanks. You are concerned. 355 00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:48,110 Good questions and how to answer the first question for us was but the framing of my 356 00:43:48,110 --> 00:43:53,930 talk and perhaps some sort of wrong ideology and kind of pushing it back against it, 357 00:43:53,930 --> 00:43:58,400 against me, pushing back against intolerance, which was first of all, 358 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:04,940 let me start by saying that the book is slightly more sophisticated when we talk as the talk is 30 minutes of truth. 359 00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:16,670 And I wanted to make this argument for getting to in second, but the book does explain the ways in which I actually matter. 360 00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:24,110 You know, I have this argument in the book that I do trajectory matter quite a bit into reading. 361 00:44:24,110 --> 00:44:33,200 I think I was also admitted to that in the talk, but especially because there were a handful of children coming to this interview 362 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:39,470 who organised as a fiction and try to shape human behaviour tied to London, 363 00:44:39,470 --> 00:44:45,680 the leader of the group and the whole leadership to take ideologically inspired decisions. 364 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,190 So I think it did matter. But it's true that in mistake. 365 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:57,200 I pushed back against this tendency on the part of some scholars to overemphasise ideology nonsense. 366 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,180 You're right to mention the work of several items, including a children's written, 367 00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:08,330 a brilliant article precisely on this back in the late 1990s with the truth. 368 00:45:08,330 --> 00:45:12,260 But the feedback loop is that it's a designed to. 369 00:45:12,260 --> 00:45:16,670 There are people for pushing back against ideological institutions. 370 00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:21,710 There are also people who are engaging with this ideology. Only explanations. 371 00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:26,260 And these people in other fields, I'm thinking of civil wars. 372 00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:32,600 The issue of terrorism studies, especially also against government in this current conversation. 373 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:42,800 Hence, my attempt to push back against this perspective, which is talking to other students outside of all the students. 374 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:49,850 You asked a really good question on which first movers the first movers as to where were. 375 00:45:49,850 --> 00:45:54,920 Yes, of course the where is. But then which kind of Islamists? 376 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,960 There were two kinds of issues which followed. 377 00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:03,540 The first one was the could. 378 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:14,030 We were inspired by the fringe of the Muslim Brotherhood and its mission by the Muslim Brotherhood's radical ideologue side. 379 00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:24,060 But there was another group of Islamists which was started through and really with the end of the day verging towards the end of the movement. 380 00:46:24,060 --> 00:46:33,080 And these were for millions of people for Tunisians, which were inspired by the Iranian revolution, which is not the exception. 381 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:39,860 We know that, of course, there are other groups that are simply centrists and ended up being inspired by the Iranian Revolution, 382 00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:52,530 Palestinian Islamic Jihad and what of them. And so these were the two types of issues which coexist at the beginning of the life of the. 383 00:46:52,530 --> 00:46:58,920 And then your third question on weather patterns was that all groups start local, 384 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:05,210 and so inevitably, all politics is local to form groups that are from their beginnings. 385 00:47:05,210 --> 00:47:12,260 So he has a three year period of life can be considered as short in the middle of a civil war. 386 00:47:12,260 --> 00:47:21,900 This is not crucial to consider. The interesting and started local, that's true, that never developed broader ambitions. 387 00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:25,800 This was not often groups start local, but with broader ambitions, 388 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:38,280 with broader ends taking over the roots of the Lebanese government or starting revolutions across the world or toppling the Syrian regime and so on. 389 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:47,310 That wasn't the case. This was a group that Musketeer wanted and wanted to take Tripoli over government. 390 00:47:47,310 --> 00:47:51,360 That's the group's ambition was. And as I tried to suggest, 391 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:57,450 so I don't think that these locally oriented movements on this sort of an 392 00:47:57,450 --> 00:48:03,000 exception or that your only characteristic of the early years of maintenance. 393 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:09,000 There are many movements that start to and remain local because of locally oriented. 394 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:15,030 They are formed with the attrition goal of protecting the community, protecting the village and neighbourhoods. 395 00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:25,900 The mountains sometimes and you have many of which never would try to, but rather than their opponents, it is one of them. 396 00:48:25,900 --> 00:48:29,910 Northern Syria centred on one village. 397 00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:39,330 It's a group that still exists within 10 years, and you never developed into a national because it never intended to develop into a national. 398 00:48:39,330 --> 00:48:48,150 What motivated me was the protection of its village and its villages around the country. 399 00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:56,200 Other examples, but I'm happy to get into. Thanks for being with us, Freddy. 400 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:05,260 Thanks very much. Great talk to Russians. And the first woman relates a little bit to the points you mentioned. 401 00:49:05,260 --> 00:49:10,450 I'm wondering about the early stage in this group. 402 00:49:10,450 --> 00:49:17,980 Did they have a sort of ideological moderation or pivot when they decided essentially in Tripoli itself? 403 00:49:17,980 --> 00:49:24,610 Or was that always the ambition right from the start? So just sort of tracing the, I guess, 404 00:49:24,610 --> 00:49:30,190 the leadership of it and looking at whether or not the more Salafi elements of 405 00:49:30,190 --> 00:49:35,860 a sort of great gain greater or lesser influence as the organisation develops. 406 00:49:35,860 --> 00:49:42,280 The second thing that I'm wondering about is also related to the sort of early onset of this group. 407 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:52,600 I wonder how they competed with other groups in the conflict who were also competing for local parts and local influence? 408 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:59,920 Was it was this just a matter of they had more committed fighters and they were able to possess revenue streams like sports, 409 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:08,820 which they may tax off of? Or how did they really outcompete those other groups that were also struggling so much? 410 00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:15,560 Conscious of the growth of time, just crazy, we will question this space from an anonymous attendee. 411 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,470 Thanks you for an extremely interesting presentation. 412 00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:24,440 The question is mainly talking about the reasons why he started recruiting Hispanics, according to Rafael. 413 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,690 Why was the strategy so effective? 414 00:50:26,690 --> 00:50:33,800 I mean, looking at the other side of the fence, why didn't all the Christmas actors feel so attracted to it and subsequently decide to join? 415 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:43,970 So why would they attract some movement and decided to do what is presumably for a virus strategy and decide to do? 416 00:50:43,970 --> 00:50:48,260 Would you perhaps the last question first, 417 00:50:48,260 --> 00:51:01,760 why did not I mentioned the talk through mechanisms through which to is not one of them was a listing of the support of neighbourhoods, children. 418 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:08,570 So this summer, as well as serving on the ground in some neighbourhoods. 419 00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:14,070 What motivated these factors to start observing them was the fact that they're able to 420 00:51:14,070 --> 00:51:20,910 determine a joint in and out of a mix or the sense of loyalty and neighbourhood solidarity. 421 00:51:20,910 --> 00:51:28,850 A lot of that it's actually quite striking when you ask people so 40 years later, but nonetheless, it's interesting. 422 00:51:28,850 --> 00:51:34,440 Why did you decide that were, you know, some of these neighbourhoods or was this one? 423 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:40,070 And sometimes the answer because that general control group. 424 00:51:40,070 --> 00:51:50,840 Quite simply, it's difficult to. I mean, one cannot underestimate the extent to which these local authorities, these local identities, 425 00:51:50,840 --> 00:52:01,110 the neighbourhoods came really mattered in the case of people and having the name of the storm was actually saw in this one neighbourhood. 426 00:52:01,110 --> 00:52:10,370 Not then. In the case of the other neighbourhoods, I mentioned that Typekit was willing to also that country for their peoples. 427 00:52:10,370 --> 00:52:16,010 And so I think that was a key factor. The group paid sometimes strict rules. 428 00:52:16,010 --> 00:52:25,880 It was not always a systematic approach, and it's very depending on all the resources and depending on the central banks. 429 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,530 It was at some point you might, which is most of get before and after. 430 00:52:30,530 --> 00:52:35,120 So I suspect that was also part of the story. And as I also suggested, 431 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:45,360 my response to my question on extortion of quite a few of these fighters joined because we wanted to make money out of organised crime. 432 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:53,270 So he was giving them the facts are stupid and therefore by joining, this is something that was actually able to consider engaging, 433 00:52:53,270 --> 00:53:02,890 smuggling and engaging in trafficking and cigarettes trafficking in some cases of trafficking Western intentions. 434 00:53:02,890 --> 00:53:10,890 Shows the extent to which this response ideology was the single most important factor. 435 00:53:10,890 --> 00:53:18,210 And I think that leads to the question you asked about the earlier stages of the group. 436 00:53:18,210 --> 00:53:21,300 What was the mission from the start to the past? 437 00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:29,370 It's important to remember that David was born in the summer maintenance, which summer refuge was important for three reasons. 438 00:53:29,370 --> 00:53:32,250 First, it's a few months after the Hammer massacre. 439 00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:45,000 Summer is not too far from Tripoli, and back then in the Senate in 1982, the Syrian regime had crushed its members in the bloodshed, 440 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:53,270 and there were talks back then that the Syrian regime would move into Tripoli and operate the city. 441 00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:56,310 A very, very bloody crackdown on the entire city. 442 00:53:56,310 --> 00:54:07,420 Just send the entire city and so that of protecting children from the threat of a Syrian Hamas massacre. 443 00:54:07,420 --> 00:54:15,430 Of course, the summer of 1982 is especially linked to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, 444 00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:22,390 which saw the Israeli army cover up to 20 murders some children. 445 00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:33,960 And so. Quite a few people think that is someone gets to shipping to that Israel Resorts are going to come and say to them, 446 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:40,580 must be because it has to vote on a number of suggestions in which the piano was to choose from. 447 00:54:40,580 --> 00:54:51,830 Israel did nothing invading the north of Lebanon that's far north, and Syria does not end up carrying Hamas massacre children. 448 00:54:51,830 --> 00:54:58,310 I just want to mention the truth about protecting children from these two threats was really what brought 449 00:54:58,310 --> 00:55:07,660 the two different breeds of incidents that I mentioned before together and govern together in a musical. 450 00:55:07,660 --> 00:55:15,490 You asked another question. What it essentially completes its rivals. 451 00:55:15,490 --> 00:55:21,720 What made them able to become such a strong resistance group? 452 00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:33,770 Instagram When? Tripoli, the military had strong militants as shells drew back in Tripoli actually had quite a few modest objects, 453 00:55:33,770 --> 00:55:39,470 but it seems to underscore very soon the Lebanese Muslim Brotherhood, which is strong in Tripoli. 454 00:55:39,470 --> 00:55:44,270 This is a national hideaway. Michelle Williams. 455 00:55:44,270 --> 00:55:51,050 This was a villa in the shadow of what's involved in Civil War, the only 20 or 30 people. 456 00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:55,760 That was in 1976. And so by 1982 it were not very strong. 457 00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:02,000 There were no serious competitor. 12. Another group was the soldiers of God. 458 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:12,110 And that ended up being sold by time because starting to become quite such a strong with resources and so on and so forth. 459 00:56:12,110 --> 00:56:24,350 So I think that he ended up working in the local environment, which was marked by this intense action in the armed Islamist spectrum. 460 00:56:24,350 --> 00:56:35,420 The spectrum was quite busy as it were when leftist countries, but the spectrum of Islamism was very, very small. 461 00:56:35,420 --> 00:56:45,020 And then something happened to munchenberg in the coverage of militant Islamists was very, very similar. 462 00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:49,000 Christian. It's great you run out of time. 463 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:57,550 So let me then thank Rafael for a really great tool and the suffering of Christians and great Christians giving such excellent answers. 464 00:56:57,550 --> 00:57:05,440 You will hear we would sell Rafael's books, unfortunately, unless you are willing to listen to, you haven't been able to ask the question. 465 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,220 I'm sure you would be delighted to have some back and forth on email. 466 00:57:09,220 --> 00:57:13,180 I really urge you to take a look at this book and purchases. 467 00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:19,600 Thank you all very much. Just embarrassing to all of you pretending that sometimes far away. 468 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:27,970 And just to say that somehow having suffered a little bit concerned with whether it's with rich women and this was really, really nice. 469 00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:37,080 So thanks to all of the items. That's the talk next week is by Joseph, a student from Georgetown University. 470 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,650 The book basically on his own family, the Sassoon family, 471 00:57:40,650 --> 00:57:51,280 merchants coming here in blocks to speak in Britain and to be speaking at five o'clock next judge's decision on that. 472 00:57:51,280 --> 00:58:04,157 And anyway, thank you very much for joining us once again, sir. Thank you very much.