1 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,360 Well, I'm really delighted to join us for the book launch. 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:20,460 One of our colleagues, Rafael So Rafael, is a senior research fellow in the $468 relations here. 3 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:27,330 He's also an associate researcher at the University of Denmark and a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics. 4 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:36,030 Rafael Central Research A chance to be. I'm guessing that's why there is a changing nature of Sunni Islam as it relates to that particular 5 00:00:36,030 --> 00:00:43,150 focus that his first book on that subject was the ashes of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria. 6 00:00:43,150 --> 00:00:50,790 It was published in 2013. Rafales published a number of other journal articles that chapters including like people 7 00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:57,060 such date 19 pieces of the general elections specialist also knows a lot about the left. 8 00:00:57,060 --> 00:00:58,860 And besides his academic work, 9 00:00:58,860 --> 00:01:05,520 Rafael actively engages with Arab and Western policymakers and matters for political and security developments in the Middle East. 10 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,280 And he is a non-resident fellow of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. 11 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,370 But today, we're delighted to host Rafael to hear about his latest book, 12 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:21,250 Jihad and the Militant Islam and Contentious Politics in Germany, recently published by Bainbridge University Press. 13 00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:33,770 Rafael 4-Year-Olds. Thank you so much for the introduction, and thanks as well to my crew for the invitation to do so this presentation. 14 00:01:33,770 --> 00:01:42,500 Are we talking about the phenomenon? We're all familiar with armed Islamism and that's the title of my talk suggest. 15 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:52,250 I'd be arguing that it's less about religion or ideology that will change local politics and local dynamics. 16 00:01:52,250 --> 00:02:03,920 So this is the structure of the talk. I'll start with a broad introduction to what I expected you mean about how it's been analysed so far. 17 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:11,670 And then I spend the rest of the term kind of pushing back against ideological explanations. 18 00:02:11,670 --> 00:02:19,080 I do this by going into one of these and in particular, the Typekit movement. 19 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,670 This is a group I know quite well. 20 00:02:20,670 --> 00:02:32,770 I spent seven years and seven years researching and going through archives into interviewing 200 of its former fighters and their opponents. 21 00:02:32,770 --> 00:02:39,100 And what struck me when I did research was how the group recruited, well, expect to be Islamists, 22 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:47,290 but also what we may call non Islamists that is fighters in local communities and neighbourhoods who are 23 00:02:47,290 --> 00:02:55,070 considered pious or religious observance and never really developed a strong commitment to ideology. 24 00:02:55,070 --> 00:03:04,840 So explaining why and how he wanted to recruit these fighters and why these fighters ended up joining the group, 25 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:15,790 and then I finished the book, I wrote in an interview to see whether this story contains anything more generally about Islamism. 26 00:03:15,790 --> 00:03:24,760 So let me jump in to the topic of Islamism. What does this term even mean to begin with? 27 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:31,770 What about that term? I mean, the spectrum of all groups involved in civil wars, 28 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:40,040 which featured an explicitly religious Islamic rhetoric and agenda, as you can see from the chart on the right. 29 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:45,620 On the Islamism is a phenomenon which became quite important in the 1970s, 30 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:52,850 which really saw an exponential growth in the 2000s and 2010s and indeed about 10 years. 31 00:03:52,850 --> 00:04:00,440 Islamist groups have become the dominant actors of the civil wars, which have erupted in Iraq, 32 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:07,580 in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Mali and so on and so forth. 33 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:14,940 Remember, these groups included Kyra Iceman's and their myriad local branches, but not on. 34 00:04:14,940 --> 00:04:22,650 There were also dozens of this radical Islamist groups, from Hamas to the Syrian Brotherhood to an Islamic movement. 35 00:04:22,650 --> 00:04:33,240 In other words, the bottom of the extremism has grown considerably in the past decades, and related to this is the question of its resilience. 36 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,440 Indeed, the question of the resilience the Taliban are back in power. 37 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:43,550 Islamist rebels ousted from Syria after 10 years of brutal civil war. 38 00:04:43,550 --> 00:04:54,050 ISIS and al Qaeda are resurgent in Africa. You may have heard of their growing rural insurgencies from Burkina Faso in the Congo to Mozambique. 39 00:04:54,050 --> 00:05:02,630 This resilience is happening precisely as governments have spent massive amounts of resources trying to shoot them. 40 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:08,600 So what are the armed Islamists seem especially resilient? 41 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,090 With that, of course, many possible answers, 42 00:05:11,090 --> 00:05:19,940 but the prominent argument is condition is that these groups are resilient because their fighters are religious zealots, 43 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:26,170 people, fighters prepared to die for the sake of God willing to demonstrate. 44 00:05:26,170 --> 00:05:36,160 So this perspective essentially makes the assumption that religion or ideology is a central motivation for these groups and of their members. 45 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,980 Of course, this explanation can have some analytical traction in some cases. 46 00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:52,690 Think of the case of foreign fighters suicide missions, but overall it is a quite restricted perspective. 47 00:05:52,690 --> 00:06:06,130 And it is a perspective which overlooks a key fact, often these Islamist armed groups recruit not Islamists or not, primarily driven by ideology. 48 00:06:06,130 --> 00:06:10,040 Take the case of Tara some. 49 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:20,950 A Syrian rebel group you may be familiar with is under it's worth noting that the Nusra Front and which nowadays controls most of northwestern Syria. 50 00:06:20,950 --> 00:06:25,120 Of course, some of the group's members and especially its leaders, 51 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:33,660 do have a long history of Islamist militancy, a very strong Salafi jihadi credentials. 52 00:06:33,660 --> 00:06:41,670 But what is striking is the group's willingness and ability to recruit fighters in local communities, 53 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:51,910 that's primarily driven by ideology that is specific to tribes, marginalised neighbourhoods and sometimes entire villages. 54 00:06:51,910 --> 00:07:01,660 On the right of the slide, you can see the picture taken just in multiple of the leader of the Irish Sun Abu Mohammed in Sudan, 55 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:10,210 meeting up with informal community leaders in the province of Idlib, where the group is strong and trying to win their support. 56 00:07:10,210 --> 00:07:21,530 As you can see from the picture, these are not Salafi jihadi community leaders, but as their attire suggests, tribal elders. 57 00:07:21,530 --> 00:07:30,080 Now, the point that I want to make in this is not to argue that ideology doesn't matter, it does matter to some extent, 58 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:40,160 which is to argue that the excessive focus on religion and ideology has led us sometimes to overlook some of the local dynamics, 59 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:49,230 which also end up shaping these views. That is what I mean with the title of my talk, all jihad is local. 60 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:58,050 Which lets us delve a little bit more Gyptian now into how these dynamics all played out in the case of Lebanon, 61 00:07:58,050 --> 00:08:01,830 in particular, the targeted movements. 62 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:14,780 To conceal this little picture of military parade by the group in the city of Tripoli, there was an Islamist armed group. 63 00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:22,400 Which operated out of this city, mainly in the city of Tripoli during the Lebanese Civil War of the nineteen eighties. 64 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:30,290 Tripoli being the second largest city of Lebanon and as you can see from metal, a place very true. 65 00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:40,560 The Syrian Lebanese border and so effectively a place under the Syrian army occupation during the conflict of the 80s. 66 00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:45,570 And the one aspect which really struck me when I did research on this is how 67 00:08:45,570 --> 00:08:52,730 this group of two to three thousand fighters achieved major military success. 68 00:08:52,730 --> 00:09:03,240 Fighters, the victims, the Syrian army out of Tripoli and the crackdown of local strongmen leftist militias in Tripoli. 69 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:12,430 Sure, the ended up being defeated by the Syrian army three years later, but even that was after a long and bloody battle. 70 00:09:12,430 --> 00:09:18,820 So what made the group so strong point were its fighters so resilient? 71 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:25,540 Well, sure, this lasted was a factor to some extent. 72 00:09:25,540 --> 00:09:33,310 Now he recruited the small constituency of longtime militant Islamists and shipping activists to Egypt, 73 00:09:33,310 --> 00:09:38,580 where Richards mobilised to die for their ideology purposes. 74 00:09:38,580 --> 00:09:45,180 These militants were partially inspired by the leader of the revolutionary troupe, 75 00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:53,340 and despite shutdown from considering a rocket launcher in the picture on the right. 76 00:09:53,340 --> 00:10:03,280 And they were also inspired by the hidden gem sort of treatment and implemented what he called an Islamic Emirate. 77 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:13,840 This is a declassified cable by the CIA about the raid and whoever wrote it was clearly worried about the group entrance into something of leadership. 78 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,860 Islamic Unification Church, which is essentially everything you need, 79 00:10:17,860 --> 00:10:27,040 is and the southern U.S. to transform troopers from one of Lebanon's most tolerant and heterogeneous urban 80 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:33,400 centres into Lebanon's most autonomous instead of pursuing Sharia is applied in the city's judicial system. 81 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:44,170 Drugs and alcohol have been eliminated. Western dress for women is criticised in target members and close the fast during Ramadan. 82 00:10:44,170 --> 00:10:52,690 And tutoring obstructed the constituents in the stands and should know that some of that. 83 00:10:52,690 --> 00:11:00,580 But what I found really interesting, and I have to say intriguing during my research was the do not stop there. 84 00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:08,510 It's also recruited many not so returning fighters in local communities and neighbourhoods. 85 00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:17,890 We're not particularly pious or religiously observant and never developed a strong commitment to Wisdom's ideology. 86 00:11:17,890 --> 00:11:23,890 I was able to produce estimate where it was organised in distinct sections, 87 00:11:23,890 --> 00:11:30,010 and so it wasn't very hard with the help of many interviews and former members of the group and 88 00:11:30,010 --> 00:11:37,870 observers to reconstruct estimates of how numerically strong or weak each of the faction was. 89 00:11:37,870 --> 00:11:49,850 And so there was a faction of approximately 600 fighters who came from one neighbourhood, but it took them. 90 00:11:49,850 --> 00:11:57,320 These fighters were bands of youth locked, you know, ever with another neighbourhood. 91 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:06,160 And many actually drug alcohol. Another faction was made of another 600 fighters, who, for their part, 92 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:13,060 had some districts of the Old City and of Mina, some of them took drugs and crime. 93 00:12:13,060 --> 00:12:19,390 I must add a history of engaging in acts of urban unrest. 94 00:12:19,390 --> 00:12:28,710 So why would you be interested in recruiting so heavily in these three local communities with no history? 95 00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:36,900 Activism, this is a matter of Tripoli to help to situate the neighbourhoods I'm talking about on the left is mineral rich, 96 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:41,760 as its name suggests, the streets of Tripoli. 97 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:53,160 Better to balance the northern enclave of the city and the Old City is Tripoli's historical sort of a large neighbourhood. 98 00:12:53,160 --> 00:13:02,550 So why was it interested in recruiting so heavily in these three neighbourhoods with no activism? 99 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:10,170 Well, the important thing to remember here is that the Islamists, like all groups said, 100 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:20,650 tend to differ from clandestine terrorist organisations in that they're often interested in conquering territory governing in accordance. 101 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:27,670 Though, wasn't there a difference? It's once it's Wall Street and create an Islamic Emirate there. 102 00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:34,240 But in order to do this, it had to eliminate its openness and to control the city. 103 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,610 This, of course, required manpower required fighters. 104 00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:45,970 And the problem is that in Tripoli, the pool of militant Islamists is actually quite small. 105 00:13:45,970 --> 00:13:53,320 Sure, this is a city made up of 85 percent of Sunni residents, and many of them are fighters, sometimes even conservative. 106 00:13:53,320 --> 00:14:00,560 But that's not the same as being, let alone militant Islamists. 107 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:10,100 And so to know which fighters it would have to mobilise local communities, sometimes most through this lens activism. 108 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:14,720 And that's including the three languages I just mentioned. 109 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:27,520 It actually sets eyes on these three neighbourhoods, especially, first of all, because they were large, so they offered a pool of potential recruits. 110 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:39,500 But beyond the need for manpower, there were also three more very specific reasons why he wanted to control these neighbourhoods. 111 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:49,030 One factor was politics. Remember that he injected the Syrian army out of chicken into it, had a target on its back. 112 00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:54,040 It knew that the Syrian regime would do anything to crush it, 113 00:14:54,040 --> 00:15:02,040 so it needed anti-Syrian regime recruits, whatever their ideological affiliations, if they had. 114 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:08,100 It's in this respect which mobilising and better today and with the sense. 115 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:20,900 I had been the beating heart of the anti-Assad mobilisation of the 70s, and so politically by mobilising them to consume petrol right there. 116 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:27,390 He was sending a strong signal to the Syrian regime in a message that any attempt 117 00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:34,810 to launch a crackdown on the island would result in a long and bloody battle. 118 00:15:34,810 --> 00:15:45,190 Another sector which may have started once mobilised, this time in the water, the cities of Tripoli was the strategic factor. 119 00:15:45,190 --> 00:15:55,960 The group is it a high putnam's strategic location from which to ooze security and from which to defend itself in the case of Syrian attack? 120 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:01,330 In this respect, the authority city was extremely useful. 121 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:09,370 This is, as you can see from the picture on the right neighbourhood, made up of extremely narrow alleyways, 122 00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:18,610 essentially a maze of alleyways that are very hard to manage, except for and I sort of got lost there many times in four hours sometimes. 123 00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:27,190 These are places, neighbourhoods and streets that are easy to defend and difficult to attack. 124 00:16:27,190 --> 00:16:38,590 It's also a neighbourhood which is very different from modern times, and so it is surrounded by guards and military towers. 125 00:16:38,590 --> 00:16:45,610 And last but not least, the Old City is home to the castle, which can see on the right. 126 00:16:45,610 --> 00:16:51,920 A high rise mediaeval fortress with long range cannons can be positioned. 127 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:59,990 In a nutshell, then mobilising and giving city gifts unhindered access to a strategic area from where it was able 128 00:16:59,990 --> 00:17:06,260 to dominate treatment of military with a single factor which played a key role in our heads, 129 00:17:06,260 --> 00:17:12,720 much less well this time for the neighbourhood as minor was economics. 130 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:20,220 The group, after it regained control of Tripoli, needed resources in order to fight its opponents and to govern the city. 131 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:27,090 That's where it's interest in that comes. Miller is the economic hub of treatment. 132 00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:35,160 It's what actually happens. It's where international ships come and go, with goods bound for Damascus, 133 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:42,900 Aleppo and Baghdad, as well as the port of the capital, had just been destroyed. 134 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:47,990 So kind economy potential was huge. 135 00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:52,940 Constrained the neighbourhood, gaining support in industrial, 136 00:17:52,940 --> 00:18:01,700 bought a lot of it to impose taxes on top national shipping and to make literally millions of dollars. 137 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:09,140 This, in turn, allowed them to buy weapons, provide small services to the local population. 138 00:18:09,140 --> 00:18:18,490 Of course, and wage patronage. In other words, it allowed them to consolidate its share over treatment. 139 00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:27,160 So to sum up, until now, for many reasons, that targets interest in co-opting local communities, 140 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:37,180 not primarily driven by state politics, military kind and a need for manpower for fighters. 141 00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:40,380 But what about these local communities then? 142 00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:50,670 Those who ended up joining Typekit, often known as as I mentioned before, so why would they join an Islamist party? 143 00:18:50,670 --> 00:18:59,050 Went to a charter, they were used to maintenance strategies. 144 00:18:59,050 --> 00:19:07,650 The first strategy actually was and existing support from neighbourhoods trauma. 145 00:19:07,650 --> 00:19:15,510 Indeed, what characterises these three neighbourhoods is that traditional social fabric, 146 00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:21,840 these are historically popular neighbourhoods with the presence of the state is very rich and 147 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:32,980 where functional strongmen emerged to provide facilities and support services to local residents. 148 00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:37,820 This figure is called the Ob-La-Da Heritage. 149 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:44,810 And it is someone is trying to ends up being seen as the former leader of the neighbourhood, 150 00:19:44,810 --> 00:19:53,540 someone who can often count on a shoot, local popularity and hundreds of territorial followers. 151 00:19:53,540 --> 00:20:02,340 The man you can see on the right path with the slogan is wonderful director, the extremely popular. 152 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:08,990 Strongmen of the neighbourhood. But it's been in the 1970s and 80s. 153 00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:14,360 Charity was what we could call a champion of globalisation. 154 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:22,910 Whenever you join a protest or was to trigger the blood of hundreds of his own followers. 155 00:20:22,910 --> 00:20:33,530 In fact, when he was murdered in 1986, 50000 residents of the neighbourhood turned to questionable. 156 00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:42,110 This really shows the sheer extent. Facing potential. 157 00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:49,190 So what I did then was to recruit Cadillac came on the right of the slide, 158 00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:55,820 you can see the leader of Italian side Shaba posing in the backdrop and his clerical outfit. 159 00:20:55,820 --> 00:21:05,590 These new popular recruits Cadillac himself wearing a leather jacket, of course, the proper attire of many of the world's. 160 00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:14,350 For his part, drew attention to the Islamist group was the promise that he would become one of its leaders 161 00:21:14,350 --> 00:21:23,020 and that you would benefit from Typekit protection in a local rivalry that you was. 162 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:34,510 Recruiting actually was a huge victory for Turkey. The group suddenly became very strong about its meaning it could now mobilise freedom and starts 163 00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:44,760 recruiting hundreds of activists followers who went on to fight for their rights in key battles. 164 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,680 The interesting thing, though, 165 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:55,890 is that according to dozens of interviews that conducted competitive bidding sort of occurring during a few of these recruits, 166 00:21:55,890 --> 00:22:02,190 they can shoot Islamists different beds and they started looking like other members. 167 00:22:02,190 --> 00:22:09,330 But you've really remained neighbourhood Islamists fighters driven not by religion or ideology, 168 00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:18,910 but rather by loyalty for their other day and by local turf wars. 169 00:22:18,910 --> 00:22:26,800 The second strategy, which started just in order to go up and recruit local communities in these three neighbourhoods, 170 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:34,950 was that it acted as a vehicle for social reasons. 171 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:39,390 This three neighbourhoods indeed, are literally Tripoli's most deprived ones, 172 00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:46,550 with between 70 and 90 percent of the locals living in poverty or extreme poverty. 173 00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:53,580 And linked to this, these are areas where social anger had long been simmering. 174 00:22:53,580 --> 00:23:01,860 But today in the Old City and meaner all had a long history of violent social rewards. 175 00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:07,140 Histories and traditions of outbursts of anger aimed at the treatment at the moment. 176 00:23:07,140 --> 00:23:13,470 This is actually where anarchist militias and criminal gangs had previously recruited, 177 00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:22,500 including, most famously, the gang of the ultras, which can see pictures on the right. 178 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:28,230 Years before the growth of he had recruited precisely in these neighbourhoods 179 00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:32,250 that recruited the surveillance on the residents of these three neighbourhoods, 180 00:23:32,250 --> 00:23:41,370 and for an entire year, they had to gather the environmental targets and blackmailing and extorting the triple in the Netherlands. 181 00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:53,050 They had been overturning Tripoli's social order. And so this is this is something that David also did play into this. 182 00:23:53,050 --> 00:23:58,600 She dreams of urban ambitions and this powerful local socio economic grievances. 183 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:04,070 It also provided a conduit for that expression. 184 00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:15,040 So on the one hand, it's discourse becomes socially very loaded, but most importantly, on the other hand, it's actually actually sort to. 185 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:22,600 The group began to target tourism politicians and businessmen, regardless of how finances actually work. 186 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:30,380 And this attracted hundreds of local supporters in this extremely deprived neighbourhoods. 187 00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:39,830 Let's show gain, the interesting thing is that very few of these sorority members to reject the Islamists, 188 00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:43,550 the vote for the group whenever they were asked to, for sure. 189 00:24:43,550 --> 00:24:53,510 But the rest of the time they were dragging you into it to make sure the society had acts of urban violence driven by economic grievances, 190 00:24:53,510 --> 00:25:08,160 most of them by ideology. And inevitably, this ended up elevating the well-connected superintendent. 191 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:17,640 And so eventually, 1985. The representatives of the street management issued a statement imploring Hafez 192 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:24,970 al-Assad to send the Syrian army yet another time to try and stop him once and for all. 193 00:25:24,970 --> 00:25:29,950 And this time this year, the army notes that in essence, 194 00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:40,340 it's mobilised as many as seven thousand soldiers, state troopers and try to enter for 90 days. 195 00:25:40,340 --> 00:25:50,950 This last battle was not only long, but what's too extreme, without which 600 killed in 19 minutes. 196 00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:56,980 And with explained the regime was its it's rooted in best parts of treatment, 197 00:25:56,980 --> 00:26:03,550 its ability to mobilise not just the small pool of ideologically committed fighters, 198 00:26:03,550 --> 00:26:10,210 but also entire local communities with whole streets and neighbourhoods. 199 00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:15,790 This last ditch struggle? So. 200 00:26:15,790 --> 00:26:23,110 What are the takeaways of this local story? What kind of the story has started? 201 00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:28,930 Tell us more broadly about what we may call the by triple digits of obstacles and 202 00:26:28,930 --> 00:26:34,870 all the ways in which inspectors navigate relationships with local communities. 203 00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:40,400 Local identities, local solidarities. 204 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:52,930 Well, I think the story that's just true mentions in this respect, which I find illustrates more contemporary examples before briefly concluding. 205 00:26:52,930 --> 00:27:04,210 The first thing that story does is really to shed light on the myriad locally oriented Islamist armed groups there. 206 00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:17,140 Indeed, when we think about the term Islamism, we do tend to spontaneously associated with transnational armed groups such as ISIS or Caida, 207 00:27:17,140 --> 00:27:23,230 or with national armed groups such as the Taliban or Hamas. 208 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:27,610 But what it shows is the need for a third category, 209 00:27:27,610 --> 00:27:35,680 the category factoring in the many armed groups which are international, not transnational, but local. 210 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:45,320 That is literally centred on a locality the neighbourhood, the city, the village region. 211 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:51,740 What characterises these groups is that they are locally oriented in that demand 212 00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:56,780 and to some extent with broader trends and with actors external to their locality, 213 00:27:56,780 --> 00:28:03,700 but ultimately deprioritized the local community. 214 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:10,040 It prioritised defence for the community of its integrity and its identity. 215 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:16,520 These lucrative oriented sales groups have actually become very prominent in the Libyan 216 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:23,790 and Syrian civil wars where I suspect you make a group of armed Islamist spectrum, 217 00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:34,130 so I do think that it's important to recognise that and and also to illustrate it with another example not drawn from Turkey. 218 00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:43,880 I'd like to talk for just a few minutes about the donor Mujahedeen Shura Council, as it should, which I that one, 219 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:59,070 which was a coalition of Islamist rebels in the region of Derna, which control this northeastern city of Raqqa from 2014 to 2018. 220 00:28:59,070 --> 00:29:03,960 I was quite interested in the group three years ago, so I did a bit of research on it. 221 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:13,260 And what struck me was how. The key overarching goal of that group was explicitly local. 222 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:24,030 Of course, this was an Islamist party which carried what Sharia to us is, but it is still one group which had the power to protect. 223 00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:33,770 They're not protecting it from ISIS and from Khalifa Haftar. 224 00:29:33,770 --> 00:29:36,740 In fact, that changed its name. 225 00:29:36,740 --> 00:29:46,580 Back in 2017 into the General Protection Force, and so it was quite interested in I was not able to do research that enough, 226 00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:52,940 but I looked knew quite a bit of that into the statements put out by this group. 227 00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:59,030 And I was also again struck by how localised a lot of these statements was, 228 00:29:59,030 --> 00:30:06,680 whether these were statements that really tackled broader national or international issues. 229 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:15,650 You were obsessed with all things Derna and their children's culture pages and pages into the city's history. 230 00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:26,970 Its identity picture its beauty and telling many of the statements ended with a sentence may God protect them. 231 00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:37,230 I think this shows the relevance of factoring in local and oriental influences on politics in our analysis of Islam, 232 00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:48,270 they are not for national or transnational groups, and this local state has to a great extent in the second segment. 233 00:30:48,270 --> 00:30:56,460 That story does need to illuminate the various ways in which the local matters for 234 00:30:56,460 --> 00:31:03,330 the Islamists shows very clearly the range of reasons why Islamist armed groups, 235 00:31:03,330 --> 00:31:11,280 including the most transnational ones, may be interested in building up legitimacy in some local communities. 236 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:19,860 This will allow them to recruit, to govern and to help because when these groups are on the decline. 237 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:24,830 So the local resistance being used by these groups as a tool. 238 00:31:24,830 --> 00:31:33,410 The third story, which just shows how the local can also affect the discourse on the behaviour of armed Islamists. 239 00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:46,500 In fact, sometimes their violence may reflect the priorities of local communities these groups have been collecting, most of them ideology. 240 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:50,700 But you can just try this with a case of ISIS. 241 00:31:50,700 --> 00:32:00,450 ISIS in the Syrian desert. Now this is not a group that is particularly well known for having tried to quote local communities. 242 00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:05,110 But there was an exception in the Syrian desert. I don't quite know why. 243 00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:10,150 Maybe the commander there was interested in doing that, maybe there were particular strategies. 244 00:32:10,150 --> 00:32:17,650 I believe that's what is for sure is that when ISIS came to the Syrian desert in 2015, 245 00:32:17,650 --> 00:32:29,950 developed extremely strong bonds with the tribal elders of the term of a strong turned desert is this vast stretch of desert is vast, 246 00:32:29,950 --> 00:32:38,770 and it includes two main tunnels a Southerner, which sees itself as the one victim of the Syrian desert and Palmyra, 247 00:32:38,770 --> 00:32:50,450 which in the past decades has been considered the true capital of the Syrian desert as a group was led to a of. 248 00:32:50,450 --> 00:33:02,060 And so. Looting itself local in the town of a stockman was very useful for ISIS because the balance of the time 249 00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:11,470 that created with the tribal elders made it possible for ISIS to recruit 2000 fighters in this town. 250 00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:17,460 The interesting thing here is that the local was not just a tool, for instance. 251 00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:24,990 It also ended up affecting disaffected discourse because after absorbing this, 252 00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:35,830 two-thirds of local recruits from a now the ISIS discourse in this area became shaped by the local identity of just one. 253 00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:43,290 I started calling a stock market capital of the game, as the title indicates, 254 00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:53,190 previously had been reserved for €5m, and Churchill ended up affecting the violence carried out by ISIS. 255 00:33:53,190 --> 00:34:01,770 Because when inside the city of Palmyra, a couple of weeks after recruiting the 2002 Fighters of Assortment, 256 00:34:01,770 --> 00:34:06,180 it carried out a massacre of hundreds of residents in Europe, 257 00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:13,380 and some events suggest that this massacre bore the marks of the local recruits 258 00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:22,480 arises from a of traditions that inhabitants have been given as their rivals. 259 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:30,220 The strong bonds developed by cities with the tribal elders and communities of stockmen may 260 00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:39,010 also explain actually part of why the group is the resurgence in this particular city. 261 00:34:39,010 --> 00:34:44,950 It's not for everyone, but it is research and even amongst the tone of the song. 262 00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:50,710 So these bonds, it was a lesson. 263 00:34:50,710 --> 00:35:03,990 So conclusion. They've tried to do this talk is, of course, to mention that it seems to have often been up to be driven by region and ideology, 264 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:13,120 and also to further that this is an important part of the story, but also to all of you that does everything. 265 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,240 I've tried to propose those two energies perspective, 266 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:28,240 one exploring the metropolitans expose on Islamism when assessing the role of local dominance in the behaviour and trajectory of these groups. 267 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:39,160 The key finding of my research is that all Islamist groups are arguably affected by local conflicts, including transnational groups. 268 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:44,530 I think that this is interesting because not in and of itself for the local, 269 00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:57,000 but also because from new insights into the range of motivations other than ideology, which drive and shape Islamism. 270 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:08,360 Thank you very much. Thank you so much for a really stimulating truth. 271 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:14,030 Everyone is going to be talking to us. 272 00:36:14,030 --> 00:36:18,410 Let me just say it's great, so I've got a question. 273 00:36:18,410 --> 00:36:23,300 Chelsea Wright she's one of a student of Middle Eastern studies. 274 00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:33,440 Why did ISIS franchise with the people Iraq specifically and not with the people of Europe, tumours of the surrounding villages? 275 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:39,860 I have some questions to ask, but I defer to senior your. 276 00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:44,480 There's this fascinating role, Rafael. There's just so much in that. 277 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:51,920 And again, a lot that just isn't. As you said, it sees a transnationally and even most of the national level. 278 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,030 These local dynamics are absolutely crucial. I have a couple of questions, though. 279 00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:59,570 Should I wait for the second round? You're not going to reach. 280 00:36:59,570 --> 00:37:08,660 First, one of these, I'm interested to see how do the genuinely Islamist leadership in some Typekit? 281 00:37:08,660 --> 00:37:14,270 How did they recognise and justify the integration of the Ukrainian dismissed and 282 00:37:14,270 --> 00:37:22,280 presumably behave in terms of drug taking alcohol sample continue to engage? 283 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:31,250 Do they see it as the great trend? Is it justified in that sense? The other question I'd like to I like to ask is, as you know, 284 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:42,620 I I studied in the past with the business insurgency in Algeria and again, very clearly local dynamics developed over time there. 285 00:37:42,620 --> 00:37:51,200 And there were two particular engines that developed, one of which seems to be operating here, but one not so much. 286 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,660 One is the element of turf war between other rival groups and of the rival, 287 00:37:56,660 --> 00:38:01,550 which is clearly what seems to be happening in Palmyra and in the desert in Syria. 288 00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:08,750 The other one operates a lot in Algeria was the the economic domination in terms of racketeering, 289 00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:17,840 which local exchange control over local political economy through almost mafioso style behaviour. 290 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,190 Is that something that you see in any of these cases? That was definitely the case. 291 00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:28,010 But what about locally in regions in Algeria? Thank you. 292 00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:31,370 What is your response? Yes, a great set of questions to start with. 293 00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:41,030 Thank you very much. So the question as to why did ISIS align with a soccer match this Egyptian premier? 294 00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:48,980 It's a great question, and I think it goes to the core of what ISIS is very good at in the past decade. 295 00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:58,670 It is a group that think strategically about the local and sort of not just communities which have grievances. 296 00:38:58,670 --> 00:39:09,470 And so I think the the residents of, as as I mentioned, all residents to the grid because they've seen their rivalries, 297 00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:16,760 nero becoming essentially essential inhabitants of the capital of the Netherlands, 298 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:24,320 the capital of the Syrian desert, doesn't actually mean that the Syrian regime against the Baath Party gets to the city of Palmyra. 299 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:31,520 So the Baath regime has chosen Palmyra as its capital of the desert, 300 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:39,560 and the residents of the suttner felt grieved and marginalised and in fact, was done. 301 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:47,360 And so I think I think it's part of ISIS's try to build bombs in that city because this was a 302 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:58,070 city with the potential with grievances where people could be mobilised against against others, 303 00:39:58,070 --> 00:40:13,580 especially links to ask Michael about why or rather how to justify the absorption of Islamists into the into the group. 304 00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:18,440 It's a very good question, and maybe I should have mentioned that in the tall, 305 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:25,850 dark Phoenix list hopes that this non-Muslims will become as strongly committed in space all the time. 306 00:40:25,850 --> 00:40:30,320 And it was not just a matter of a matter of that. 307 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:38,660 He invested cultural resources for the time back then into the three neighbourhoods were no incidents. 308 00:40:38,660 --> 00:40:52,340 Where were men? It used mosques. It's a set of indoctrination camps and I haven't talked to instructors from this indoctrination and with 309 00:40:52,340 --> 00:41:00,380 fighters who went through the camps on the other side of the camp as sort of attendees or students. 310 00:41:00,380 --> 00:41:07,940 It was clear from both perspectives that this didn't actually work out to reproduce the results. 311 00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:17,330 There were stories of Jews committed afterwards, but it was really the exception rather than words. 312 00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:23,820 And so the bottom line is that I don't think I think that it was perhaps a bit naive and in 313 00:41:23,820 --> 00:41:31,580 its approach to generally try to build on the ideological commitment of these students, 314 00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:43,510 it just means that just the same. Also, remember, we're talking about a three year period, this is not a massively long amount of time. 315 00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:51,220 Some conservative principles four years between 1980 to 1985, if it had stayed longer in charge of the city, 316 00:41:51,220 --> 00:42:01,570 maybe there would be more cases of actual conversions and conversions to a strong brand of Islamism. 317 00:42:01,570 --> 00:42:06,310 The question you ask on racketeering, extortion and measures of behaviour? 318 00:42:06,310 --> 00:42:13,870 Actually, the parallels with Nigeria in the 1990s are really fascinating. 319 00:42:13,870 --> 00:42:23,740 In the case of this dynamic went very far indeed because once limited resources to govern the city, 320 00:42:23,740 --> 00:42:35,110 it was ready to strike back with a dagger as it were full ActionScript principles into each integrated into the group. 321 00:42:35,110 --> 00:42:44,410 An actual criminal gang headed by a Christian who supposedly converted to Islam and then became an Islamist. 322 00:42:44,410 --> 00:42:50,230 But again, that was that was not a case of conversion to Islam. 323 00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:56,260 What is the solution to terrorism? Essentially, 324 00:42:56,260 --> 00:43:05,860 the group's willingness to recruit anyone to bring in revenues so that the group was able to continue operating and govern the city of Tripoli. 325 00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:11,810 Interestingly enough, this neighbourhood's getting hit by this attrition that doesn't. 326 00:43:11,810 --> 00:43:22,900 This whole section on one section, but each ended up engaging in alcohol smuggling. 327 00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:31,240 And people say that the Typekit is, but that this was such a profitable business that they just let it happen. 328 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:37,090 So it shows again the extent to which these local dynamics and sometimes simply the need for 329 00:43:37,090 --> 00:43:43,360 resources as your government and you need boots on the ground and need manpower to provide services, 330 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:50,820 you need to engage in patronage. And for all of this, you need resources, whether wherever we come from. 331 00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:54,800 Thanks for being so yeah, really enjoying the spectacle. 332 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:04,960 Thousands of questions. And so the study is very well motivated by pushing back against explanations that are simply reasonable ideology. 333 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:10,480 But the medium term perspective suggests that in many ways, 334 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:18,790 the mental approach to understanding the small form of that is precisely to write out ideology from a over of the account. 335 00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:21,820 So thinking here salvation is what, for example, 336 00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:29,470 from the early 2000s when she talks about Islam as being a Islamism as being idiom of politics in which universe. 337 00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:37,100 But it's ultimately about politics, and I'm thinking here also, it's almost like hurricane spike here recently, where it is provocative. 338 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:42,430 This is the dominant approach is that the jihad uses that religion or ideology is like a wrap up. 339 00:44:42,430 --> 00:44:45,230 But actually the core of it is actually the politics of the conflict, 340 00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:48,790 which is obviously an issue that seems to come out very strongly with new research. 341 00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:54,220 What I was kind of curious to hear about was about the ideology of the beginning, 342 00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:59,200 because I think you're absolutely right that true ideologues are very great gal. I 343 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,380 necessarily have to recruit beyond trying to be able to sustain a large force of movement. 344 00:45:05,380 --> 00:45:06,820 But what were the look then? 345 00:45:06,820 --> 00:45:15,030 But surely the kind of the cool country of the early risers, if you will, they presumably were more motivated by ideology. 346 00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:23,620 And I was curious to hear what distinguished how indeed from animal comparable movements if we think about political skills as a spectrum. 347 00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:30,370 Where do they kind of sit on that spectrum? Do they feel inspired by in their initial initial stage? 348 00:45:30,370 --> 00:45:34,840 But I also wanted to pursue as well to think about this, this framing about politics. 349 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,790 Presumably, you want to introduce this kind of race. 350 00:45:39,790 --> 00:45:44,680 Presumably, this is in large part a function of the development of the organisation at the time, 351 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:52,390 but is to say that organisation is not necessarily so, and some become national and transnational. 352 00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:57,850 And so what? I was kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this counterfactual. 353 00:45:57,850 --> 00:46:01,750 Obviously, it's it's interesting. How much did you find? 354 00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:07,120 Could we imagine a version of ourselves that was the national or transnational? 355 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:13,840 And how then would that have changed these kinds of local dynamics or not? 356 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:24,480 OK, let's. So many good questions and how to answer the first question for us was about the framing of 357 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:32,880 my talk and perhaps some sort of wrong ideology and kind of pushing it back against me, 358 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:38,250 pushing back against intolerance, which was, first of all, 359 00:46:38,250 --> 00:46:45,030 let me start by saying that the book is slightly more sophisticated when we talk as the talk is such a beautiful. 360 00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:57,740 And I wanted to make this argument for getting to the second, but the book does explain the ways in which ideology actually mattered. 361 00:46:57,740 --> 00:47:06,270 You know, I have I have this argument in the book that I do trajectory matter quite a bit into. 362 00:47:06,270 --> 00:47:09,570 I think I also admitted to that in the talk, 363 00:47:09,570 --> 00:47:21,450 but with especially because there were a handful of children coming to this interview who organised as a fiction and try to shape human behaviour, 364 00:47:21,450 --> 00:47:29,430 try to love the leader of the group and the whole leadership to take ideologically inspired decisions. 365 00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:31,200 So Richard did matter. 366 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:41,220 But it's true that in this talk, I pushed back against this tendency on the part of some scholars to over emphasise ideology nonsense. 367 00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:45,420 You're right to mention the work of several items, including a children's. 368 00:47:45,420 --> 00:47:56,250 He's written a brilliant article precisely on his back in the late 1990s with the truth, but the feedback loop is that it's a design institute. 369 00:47:56,250 --> 00:48:00,690 There are people for pushing back against ideological dimensions. 370 00:48:00,690 --> 00:48:07,980 There are also people who are engaging with this ideology on extreme issues and these people in other fields. 371 00:48:07,980 --> 00:48:17,010 I'm thinking of civil wars. The issue of terrorism studies, especially awesome things government in this current conversation. 372 00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:31,130 Hence, my attempt to push back against this perspective, people is talking to other students about sort of all earnestness. 373 00:48:31,130 --> 00:48:38,180 You asked a really good question on which first movers the first movers as to where the revolutionaries? 374 00:48:38,180 --> 00:48:43,250 Yes, of course the where is. But then what kind of Islamists? 375 00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:48,890 There were two kinds of missions which formed. 376 00:48:48,890 --> 00:48:52,510 The first one was what's happening with the could. 377 00:48:52,510 --> 00:49:04,820 We were inspired by a fringe of the Muslim Brotherhood and its mission by the Muslim Brotherhood's radical ideologue. 378 00:49:04,820 --> 00:49:15,560 But there was another group of Islamists which was starting to and really with the end of the day verging towards the end of the movement. 379 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:24,560 And these were for millions of people for Tunisians, which were inspired by the Iranian revolution, which is not the exception. 380 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:31,640 We know that, of course, there are other groups that are centrists and ended up being inspired by the Iranian Revolution, 381 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:46,580 Palestinian Islamic Jihad and one of them. And so these were the two types of Islamists which coexisted with the beginning of the life of. 382 00:49:46,580 --> 00:49:52,970 And then your third question, what about the parents? Was that all start local? 383 00:49:52,970 --> 00:49:57,590 And so inevitably, all politics is local reform groups that are in there. 384 00:49:57,590 --> 00:50:08,620 The beginnings of. So he has a three year period of life can be considered as short in the middle of a civil war. 385 00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:14,230 This is not too short of the interesting and started local. 386 00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:18,760 That's true that never developed broader ambitions. 387 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,690 This was not a group of some groups that good, but with broader ambitions, 388 00:50:22,690 --> 00:50:35,860 with broader ends taking over their roots in the Lebanese government or starting revolutions across the world or toppling the Syrian regime and so on. 389 00:50:35,860 --> 00:50:45,970 That wasn't the case. This was a group that Musketeer wanted and wanted to take Tripoli over government. 390 00:50:45,970 --> 00:50:50,380 That's what the group's ambition was. And as I tried to suggest, 391 00:50:50,380 --> 00:51:02,500 I don't think that these locally oriented movements on this is an exception or that their only characteristic of the early years of maintenance. 392 00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:08,500 There are many movements that start remain local because of locally oriented. 393 00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:15,040 They are formed with the attrition goal of protecting the community, protecting the village and neighbourhoods. 394 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:23,680 The mountain sometimes and have many of which never to try to broader than their parents. 395 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:29,950 How do you choose one of them? Northern Syria centred on one village up to seven. 396 00:51:29,950 --> 00:51:40,180 It's a group that seems to be better here than 10 years, and you never developed into an action because it never intended to develop its momentum. 397 00:51:40,180 --> 00:51:49,370 What motivated was the protection of its village and its villages around the. 398 00:51:49,370 --> 00:51:54,400 But I'm happy to get some results back. 399 00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:03,850 Thanks very much. Great talk to Russians, and the first one relates a little bit to the points. 400 00:52:03,850 --> 00:52:14,510 I'm I'm wondering about the early stage because if they did, they did they? 401 00:52:14,510 --> 00:52:22,670 Do they have a sort of ideological moderation or pivot when they decided essentially in Tripoli itself? 402 00:52:22,670 --> 00:52:29,420 Or was that always the ambition right from the start? So just sort of tracing the, I guess, 403 00:52:29,420 --> 00:52:35,510 the leadership of it and looking at whether or not the more Salafi elements of 404 00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:41,180 a sort of great gain greater or lesser influence as the organisation develops. 405 00:52:41,180 --> 00:52:47,570 The second thing that I'm wondering about is also related to the sort of early onset of this group. 406 00:52:47,570 --> 00:52:56,900 I wonder how they competed with other groups in the conflict who were also competing for local hearts and minds. 407 00:52:56,900 --> 00:52:58,820 You know, local influence was it. 408 00:52:58,820 --> 00:53:08,210 Was this just a matter of they had more committed fighters and they were able to possess revenue streams like sports, which they may tax off of? 409 00:53:08,210 --> 00:53:15,860 Or how did they really outcompete those other groups that were also struck with too much conscious of the bit of time? 410 00:53:15,860 --> 00:53:23,030 Let me just here's one more question in this case from an anonymous attendee. 411 00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:31,310 Thank you for an extremely interesting presentation. The question is mainly just the other reasons why he started recruiting not. 412 00:53:31,310 --> 00:53:35,060 According to Rafael. Why was the strategy so effective? 413 00:53:35,060 --> 00:53:36,650 I mean, looking at the other side of the fence, 414 00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:43,520 why did the Nordic Islamist fighters feel so attracted to it and subsequently decided to join the cast? 415 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,710 Why didn't non-Islamists join? What would that sort of incentives effectively? 416 00:53:48,710 --> 00:54:02,570 So why would they attract some movement and decided to do what is presumably a high risk strategy and decide to join to? 417 00:54:02,570 --> 00:54:06,260 Perhaps the last question first, 418 00:54:06,260 --> 00:54:20,720 why did not I mention the talk through mechanisms through which targeted Crucible is not one of them was a listing of the squad of megahertz children. 419 00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:27,940 So this strong winds were a similar concern on the front in some neighbourhoods. 420 00:54:27,940 --> 00:54:35,030 So what motivated these two factors to target them was the fact that their neighbourhoods 421 00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:41,240 a giant step in and out of a mix or the sense of loyalty and neighbourhood solidarity. 422 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:49,250 A lot of them ended up. It's actually quite striking when you ask people so 40 years later, but nonetheless, it's interesting. 423 00:54:49,250 --> 00:54:54,770 Why did you turn everything else? Know some of these neighbourhood was this one? 424 00:54:54,770 --> 00:55:06,520 And sometimes because that German controlled group a city of the it's the it's it's difficult to. 425 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:18,310 It's I mean, one cannot underestimate the extent to which these local authorities, these local identities, the maintenance can really matter. 426 00:55:18,310 --> 00:55:23,210 In the case of people and having the name of that, someone was really active. 427 00:55:23,210 --> 00:55:29,560 So in this one neighbourhood, it's not been. 428 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:37,600 In the case of the other neighbourhoods, I mentioned that Typekit was willing to also that for their people. 429 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:43,240 And so I think that was a key factor. The group paid sometimes strict rules. 430 00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:45,730 It was not always a systematic approach, 431 00:55:45,730 --> 00:55:55,990 and it's very depending on all the resources and depending on the central time in terms of being fighters at some points in 1983, 432 00:55:55,990 --> 00:56:02,530 most before and after. So I suspect that was also part of the story. 433 00:56:02,530 --> 00:56:08,500 And as I also suggested my response to Michael's question on extortion, 434 00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:14,040 quite a few of these fighters joined because we wanted to make money out of organised crime. 435 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:21,940 So he was giving them the insurance and therefore by joining, this is excellent way to continue engaging, 436 00:56:21,940 --> 00:56:27,080 smuggling and engaging in alcohol trafficking and cigarettes trafficking. 437 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:40,130 Maybe some kind of trafficking Western intentions. Shows the extent to which this response of ideology was the single most important factor. 438 00:56:40,130 --> 00:56:47,750 And I think that leads to the question you asked about the earlier stages of the. 439 00:56:47,750 --> 00:56:56,720 What was the mission from the start to? It's important to remember that David was born in the summer maintenance, which summer maintenance. 440 00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:01,910 It was important for two reasons. First, it's a few months after the Hammer massacre. 441 00:57:01,910 --> 00:57:15,110 Hammer is not too far from Tripoli, and back then in the summer in 1982, the Syrian regime had crushed the rebels in Hama. 442 00:57:15,110 --> 00:57:25,790 The bloodshed and there were talks back then that the Syrian regime would move into Tripoli and operate the city was very, 443 00:57:25,790 --> 00:57:29,780 very brutal crackdown on the entire city, just setting the entire city. 444 00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:39,040 And so that matter and protecting children from the threat of a Syrian Hamas massacre. 445 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:47,080 Of course, the summer of 1982 is especially linked to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, 446 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:55,090 which saw the Israeli army cover up to 20 murders, some the children of liberals. 447 00:57:55,090 --> 00:58:03,370 And so. Quite a few people think that is the size of its tool in shipping, 448 00:58:03,370 --> 00:58:13,870 so that is sort of going to compensate children must be because it has to important is never suggestions in which the terrorists choose from. 449 00:58:13,870 --> 00:58:19,120 Israel did nothing invading the north of Lebanon. 450 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:27,250 That's all north. And Syria does not end up carrying Hamas, a massacre of children. 451 00:58:27,250 --> 00:58:35,810 I just want to mention the treatment. But protecting children from these two threats was really what brought the two different 452 00:58:35,810 --> 00:58:45,020 breeds of incidents that I mentioned before together and governments gathered in this group. 453 00:58:45,020 --> 00:58:49,530 You will ask another question, all. 454 00:58:49,530 --> 00:59:05,970 What it essentially completes its rivals, what made them able to become such a strong resistance group in instrument with. 455 00:59:05,970 --> 00:59:16,470 Shipping the had a strong sense of self drew back then he actually had quite a few of Morrissey's armed groups, 456 00:59:16,470 --> 00:59:26,970 but Islamist armed groups were very few. The Lebanese Muslim Brotherhood, which is strong and this is a national kind of militia trading volumes. 457 00:59:26,970 --> 00:59:35,280 This was really, really the shadow of what's involved in the Civil War, the only 20 or 30 people that was in 1976. 458 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:43,410 And so by 1982 there were not very strong. There were no serious competitor that. 459 00:59:43,410 --> 00:59:46,140 Another group was the soldiers of God. 460 00:59:46,140 --> 00:59:57,730 And that ended up being sold because starting to become quite rightly, such a strong with resources and some sort of. 461 00:59:57,730 --> 01:00:10,330 So, yeah, I think that he ended up working in the local environment, which was marked by this intense action in the armed Islamist spectrum. 462 01:00:10,330 --> 01:00:17,680 The spectrum was quite quite busy as it were when the left Congress. 463 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:22,840 But the spectrum of extremism in them was very, very small, 464 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:36,110 and there was some very much involved in triggering the coverage of militant concerns was very, very small. 465 01:00:36,110 --> 01:00:37,700 They run out of time. 466 01:00:37,700 --> 01:00:44,930 So let me then thank Rafael for a really great tool and the suffering of Christians and great Christians doing such excellent arts, 467 01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:47,810 since it's the least that you probably have been able to ask the question of Rafael, 468 01:00:47,810 --> 01:00:51,920 I'm sure he would be delighted to have some back and forth with the email. 469 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,910 I would really encourage you to take a look at this book and participate. 470 01:00:55,910 --> 01:01:01,250 Thank you all very much. Just thinking of you in the audience and sometimes followers. 471 01:01:01,250 --> 01:01:09,630 And just to say that also having suffered at the Vatican, whether to enrich uranium and things just wouldn't be nice. 472 01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:14,000 So thanks to you very much for joining us once again. 473 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:22,870 Thank you. Very.