1
00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:06,100
Okay. Thank you for inviting me. Marilyn after all these years.

2
00:00:06,460 --> 00:00:18,610
It's great to see you again. And also, if I may, for this topic and for this series, it's not normally my topic at all, but I, I was glad I had.

3
00:00:19,150 --> 00:00:23,030
Basically, I was. Forced to do this.

4
00:00:25,910 --> 00:00:30,050
So, of course, I'm writing a book, A History of the Middle East.

5
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:35,960
But through this perspective of citizenship, it's not a common topic.

6
00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:46,400
Usually when you look at the Middle East, actually women's studies, there's a lot of much more than a normal political science.

7
00:00:47,030 --> 00:00:50,570
So I discovered So that's really interesting to see them,

8
00:00:51,350 --> 00:00:59,090
that citizenship is much more regarded as an important topic for citizenship in the Middle East.

9
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,740
And it gives sort of a different perspective on the whole development of citizenship.

10
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,510
So what I'll do is try to explain what citizenship is.

11
00:01:09,380 --> 00:01:19,520
I was this morning standing in a row for my train and someone working for Amnesty International, and I asked them, what about citizenship?

12
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,060
Do you do anything with it? Only human rights. And you said citizenship.

13
00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:31,870
Well, everybody has a passport. So, so many people think it's only it's a passport, but it's, of course, much more.

14
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,130
And that's what I tried to explain and also in different books on women.

15
00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:40,520
So why is citizenship important?

16
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:49,579
So if you look at it as a much more broader thing than a passport or can you see it, it's identity.

17
00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:53,600
It determines who is excluded. Who is excluded.

18
00:01:54,050 --> 00:01:58,880
It's a bundle of rights, civil, political, social rights.

19
00:01:59,420 --> 00:02:03,810
But it's also an attitude and habits and practices.

20
00:02:03,830 --> 00:02:11,360
That's also important to remember because some people focus only on rights and other people focus on practices.

21
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:20,390
And the most famous one, of course, Saba mahmood, who focussed mostly on practices and does not look at rights.

22
00:02:21,170 --> 00:02:26,930
But she look at every researcher who looks at a different aspect of citizenship.

23
00:02:27,620 --> 00:02:31,370
The problem is, is when does it start? Where does it end? How important is it?

24
00:02:31,550 --> 00:02:37,580
I think it is important because it also if you look at the contemporary movement, most of it it's about citizenship.

25
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:50,629
Even though the contemporary uprisings in the Sudan, for instance, or in Iraq in 2019 or in Lebanon, you see it's not about nationalism especially,

26
00:02:50,630 --> 00:02:58,580
but it's about citizenship and common ideas of shared values, shared rights, inter sectarian dialogues.

27
00:02:58,580 --> 00:03:03,409
Or in Iraq, for instance, the movement with Muqtada al Sadr.

28
00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:15,410
And the comment as recently goes back to a previous period where Iraqi first was the most important slogan in the 1950s and forties and etcetera.

29
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:23,960
So it is an important element, and especially if you look back in history also in this case of women's movement.

30
00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:27,690
So it explains partly social movements and uprisings.

31
00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:35,540
At the moment I think the Arab Spring is on citizenship and I think it's also important it makes it possible

32
00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:40,010
to make broader comparisons not only between different countries in the Middle East and different movements,

33
00:03:40,310 --> 00:03:46,160
but also between the Middle East and Europe, because in Holland, the citizenship is a very big thing.

34
00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:51,560
Refugees have to have a whole course how to become Dutch citizens.

35
00:03:52,460 --> 00:03:54,920
But it's more interesting, actually, to compare, for instance,

36
00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:02,450
Syrians who come in to Holland and to give a kind of parallel development of what citizenship means in Holland in history wise,

37
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:10,430
and how it developed in Syria. And then you can have a more open dialogue, the differences and commonalities.

38
00:04:11,060 --> 00:04:19,030
So this is what I would call important. The main slogan of the Arab Spring, of course, is bread, freedom and justice, which is about citizenship.

39
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:28,450
I wouldn't know what it would be otherwise. And all the different movements that you have had over the past eight years after the Arab Spring,

40
00:04:29,090 --> 00:04:35,360
for instance, in Morocco, Sudan, in Iraq, as I mentioned, and Algeria.

41
00:04:36,260 --> 00:04:41,750
So what I will do in this lecture is to give the definition of citizenship,

42
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,810
citizenship and gender studies to show what happens in different books that I have read,

43
00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:56,780
the idea of social contract, which I work with, and then give you different examples of different social contracts.

44
00:04:57,230 --> 00:05:02,840
For instance, the colonial Pact, which I used a friendly social contract of the 1930s and forties,

45
00:05:03,140 --> 00:05:06,170
the populist authoritarian pacts of the 1950s and sixties.

46
00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:09,410
And the alternative to the social contract.

47
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:19,220
So all these social contracts have a different idea of what citizenship is, and it also allows for certain forms of citizenship.

48
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,560
So you don't have. All citizenship. Even in Europe, you don't have that.

49
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,760
So it's also interesting to see that you have a graded citizenship.

50
00:05:28,330 --> 00:05:33,380
So it depends on the situation, whether it is so what it is citizenship.

51
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,330
So it's on a collective level and on the individual level.

52
00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:48,430
So it's partly an individualisation and you a sense of personhood, self-discipline, nation, new sense of collectivity, a new sense of responsibility,

53
00:05:48,430 --> 00:05:57,130
especially in the 19th century, when the state starts to become the modern state starts to become more important and new ideas.

54
00:05:57,550 --> 00:06:04,690
If you look at a modern ideal of citizenship, of what the common good is, of course it an older ideal, what the common good is.

55
00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:08,800
But you see that in the modern history it all changes.

56
00:06:09,250 --> 00:06:19,390
And all these different concepts that you have from Islamic history also starts to change, as Marylyn also shows in her book on Sign Up for Wealth.

57
00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:25,440
So also rights and entitlements and acceptation.

58
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,120
That's the last thing which I think is an important.

59
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:39,890
So it's not just ideas or rights, but it's also a way of an attitude of comportment in, of people in the world and how they act.

60
00:06:40,630 --> 00:06:44,710
So you have different types of citizenship. One is from above.

61
00:06:44,770 --> 00:06:50,979
The state is an important source of citizenship because it's not because of giving people rights,

62
00:06:50,980 --> 00:07:00,790
but of giving controlling people, having greater control over resources, economic production, etc., and reproduction.

63
00:07:01,750 --> 00:07:03,630
So it tries to control people.

64
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:15,490
So you see that in the 19th century, a state interferes much more directly into the personal lives of people in contrast to 18th century or earlier.

65
00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:21,280
So there's a real bureaucratic, bureaucratic state which starts to operate on people.

66
00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:29,800
But on the other hand, you have a citizenship from below. And I think that's important because in most post structuralist analysis,

67
00:07:30,190 --> 00:07:36,100
it's mostly the state that operates and the whole idea of agency is mostly gone.

68
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,850
So that's what I think also is important in citizenship studies,

69
00:07:39,850 --> 00:07:47,739
that you really look outside agency and see how people also fight back against the state partly and

70
00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:55,840
try to form new communities outside of the state or separate from the state or or against the state,

71
00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,940
and making claims of different rights and the acts of citizenship.

72
00:08:01,060 --> 00:08:08,580
So collective performances, protest, solidarity, etc. in the book by an organism,

73
00:08:08,590 --> 00:08:12,250
I don't know if you know it acts of citizenship, which is an important book.

74
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,050
So you don't have a full, but you have a graded citizenship.

75
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:25,800
So it's gradually and partially and never anywhere, neither in Europe or in the Middle East, a full citizenship.

76
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,410
So so they wax and they wait.

77
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,500
So there it's not a constant element.

78
00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:39,160
The most famous book by Marshall, which he wrote in the 1950s, which I'll show you in a moment,

79
00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:47,990
he has a kind of linear idea that citizenship with this progressive photo that it accumulates in the real and as full citizens.

80
00:08:48,550 --> 00:08:55,540
That was his idea of how the welfare state would produce justice and, of course, gender citizenship.

81
00:08:56,530 --> 00:08:59,770
So what we have here in this picture.

82
00:09:00,730 --> 00:09:04,090
So you have the state, you have patriarchy.

83
00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:11,620
I'm not going to go into that, but we'll come to that later. You have different ideologies on what citizenship is,

84
00:09:13,060 --> 00:09:19,570
and you have citizens and social movements which try to determine and fight for their

85
00:09:19,570 --> 00:09:27,670
rights or for their autonomy and build up a culture of citizenship among themselves.

86
00:09:28,510 --> 00:09:38,410
So what I think is important here to to make a distinction between nationalism, Islamism and citizenship was mostly they're both they're conflated.

87
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,270
Usually they don't people don't make distinctions between these different elements.

88
00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:52,689
I think it is important to look at these separately because I think citizenship is actually more important than many of these other elements.

89
00:09:52,690 --> 00:10:02,010
At least it's important to look at that issue, which is not always falls under either Islamism or nationalism, the most important ideologies.

90
00:10:02,650 --> 00:10:05,890
So let's just look at citizenship in gender studies.

91
00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:12,190
So the formation of citizenship. And I hope I don't offend Maryland.

92
00:10:13,630 --> 00:10:20,980
Oh, go ahead. I'm going to fit in her massive book and a very.

93
00:10:21,060 --> 00:10:26,450
Rich book in just one slide as you've probably read it.

94
00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:30,970
It's a great book and but very difficult to put in this scheme.

95
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,600
So the focus is on the rise of feminism,

96
00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:43,840
women's subject hood and participation and women's literature and gradual processes of creating censorship through transformation,

97
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,710
of terminology of conduct and sense of self.

98
00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:51,490
I will look at it more deeply later on.

99
00:10:51,610 --> 00:10:53,220
Then you have the right approach.

100
00:10:53,650 --> 00:11:07,420
And this is, I think also these are important publications by Elizabeth Thompson on Syria and Salma Bachmann on Egypt and Laura Beer,

101
00:11:07,420 --> 00:11:11,110
the revolutionary womanhood. Also, I don't know if anybody knows.

102
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:20,170
It's a great book. I really like that. It's because it's one of the few books also on as far as I know, on the Nutters.

103
00:11:20,260 --> 00:11:31,330
Yeah. Yeah. They state state feminism. So here the focus on these rights is that it's partly it takes the ideas of Marshall,

104
00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:36,520
which were developed in Europe and the focus is on social, economic and political rights.

105
00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:46,480
But these are already drawn out rights with a clear definitions, but it doesn't have very much on discursive fields of citizenship.

106
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,210
It doesn't show how it really develops and certainly doesn't do anything on

107
00:11:52,450 --> 00:11:57,990
the kind of performative citizenship which you see in England isn't so book.

108
00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:06,490
They have political post-colonial theory. The most important or most famous, I think it's line arguments women and children as long.

109
00:12:07,270 --> 00:12:10,450
But I feel here you don't have to really have much agency.

110
00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:21,460
Not to mention citizenship doesn't occur at all in her books and think it's like customer mean or harm have become tools of imperialism,

111
00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:27,190
etc. is that you have the really legalistic approach of women's rights.

112
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,140
I wonder if you would agree with this, but I'm happy to hear later on.

113
00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:38,440
And these are of course, so the use of your book, Gender and Citizenship in the Middle East.

114
00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:45,500
Mona Russell There must be certainly more. And Cynthia Nelson's book on Doria Shafik.

115
00:12:46,540 --> 00:12:49,960
So here you have gender and citizenship and especially on law.

116
00:12:50,080 --> 00:13:01,480
Islamic law is important, especially so it goes books as being very influential, I think, on especially on courts laws,

117
00:13:01,870 --> 00:13:12,340
polygamy, age of marriage, marriages, etc., and the whole idea of patriarchy and kinship working on these elements.

118
00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:17,280
And the state is very prominently in existence in her works.

119
00:13:18,190 --> 00:13:22,270
Mostly colonialism is neglected and counter movements are not.

120
00:13:23,290 --> 00:13:31,810
Finally, you have here Women and nationalism, which is Beth Barron's book, which is also famous, both of these books.

121
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:38,079
But again, if you look at her book, it's only focus. It mostly focuses on nationalism.

122
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:46,420
So here you have a complete that citizenship and nationals are completely fall together and there's nothing about citizenship at all.

123
00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:53,080
She does have parts, of course, on women's rights, but not in relation to citizenship.

124
00:13:53,530 --> 00:14:03,170
I want to ask you to contribute to an edited volume I did on Brakhage, and she had no idea what citizenship was actually.

125
00:14:04,330 --> 00:14:08,200
But she does a lot of other things, of course, and these books are great.

126
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:16,720
So education work, of course. And then finally you have performative citizenship, which is a type of Mahmood's book,

127
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:24,220
which probably everybody knows and is probably one of the most problematic books as far as I'm concerned.

128
00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:28,510
So the focus is on creation of Islamic feminist subject.

129
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:36,220
It doesn't mention it, but it analyses basically, I think, the alternative Islamist Citizenship project.

130
00:14:36,850 --> 00:14:39,880
So I will go into that a little bit further on.

131
00:14:40,390 --> 00:14:48,910
So let's just look at social contracts. So now we've had citizenship and the thing that goes with it is basically a social contract,

132
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:53,770
but that's the broader framework where citizenship falls into.

133
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,160
So you have the classic idea of a social contract which actually starts from Mohammed,

134
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:07,390
and it's based on the pact of Oman with with Christians and of course, between Muslims based on the Koran and Hadith, etc.

135
00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:11,800
I won't go into all of this. Important is, I think, the colonial pact.

136
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:20,680
But that's a period that's crucial. Mostly it's seen as the nationalist era of the rise of nationalist movements in the Middle East.

137
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:28,810
Whilst in Egypt, different political parties in in Syria, the national bloc, etc., etc.

138
00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:34,570
And then of course the populist authoritarian pack, the fall of the authoritarian contract,

139
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:43,210
the Islamists alternative and other alternative social contracts which are now trying to be created

140
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,850
through these different movements and what they think should be the social contract at the moment,

141
00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:56,800
whether it's in Iraq or Sudan or as people think, mostly authoritarian groups or dictators, etc.

142
00:15:57,260 --> 00:16:08,110
But at the same time, different movements against this authoritarianism and trying to figure out alternatives are the Legion mukoma in Sudan,

143
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,490
the different movements in Iraq which were being suppressed, etc.

144
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:23,050
So. Let's just go back and see how citizenship and social contracts fit into each other and then look at the colonial pact.

145
00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:31,110
One of the things I've tried to find out in this book, and I stopped looking at calling it the Nationalists,

146
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,310
I think Cleveland calls it the struggle for independence or something.

147
00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:39,100
In his famous book on a history of the Middle East.

148
00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:45,100
But I think it's much more still. Of course, he mentions that colonialism still is important,

149
00:16:45,550 --> 00:16:52,210
but I think it's much more important than he thinks or when he wrote the book in 75 or something.

150
00:16:52,840 --> 00:17:01,959
So just to briefly mentioned that colonial pact, what is it, an alliance of notables, acceptance of foreign influence on the economy,

151
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:07,400
education, state policies, support of the creation of independent religious institutions?

152
00:17:07,420 --> 00:17:11,860
How colonialism forms these different religious institutions.

153
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:20,350
The whole idea of divide and rule and the continuation of the personal statute, whether it's Islamic or Christian,

154
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:31,240
and the support of conservative religious institutions, political institutions, and the continuity of patriarchy and paternalism.

155
00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:35,440
Thompson, in her book on Syria, calls it the pattern with the pact.

156
00:17:35,470 --> 00:17:46,330
So basically, she grabs the two together and citizenship and the social pact in French mandate period in Syria and calls it the patron loss pact.

157
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:56,620
How the the French mandate administration supported the existing patriarchal structures in in Syria.

158
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,950
But this is a something that you see elsewhere as well.

159
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:08,590
And that's why it's interesting to look at women's history, because there you can see how colonialism operates on these different issues.

160
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:15,790
So looking at at Marilyn's book, just to give a few ideas,

161
00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:26,350
what I think is fascinating is this whole idea of how the idea of rights is being transformed from a more based idea,

162
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:31,570
based on a practice based on the Sharia to a more modern idea of rights.

163
00:18:31,870 --> 00:18:38,530
So that's why her book is rich in especially evolving these kind of ideas.

164
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:46,360
So also the ideas of feminism, of course, the social participation, the rights of women and the emergence of individuals.

165
00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:52,870
I mean, all the different books, the whole other culture which is being created at the time,

166
00:18:53,020 --> 00:18:57,370
which also has its impact on what citizens are supposed to do,

167
00:18:57,550 --> 00:19:04,270
what kind of obligations they have, what kind of duties they have through the nation and to the community as a whole.

168
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:13,200
And here you have political ethics and gender justice and how they are intertwined in them.

169
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:21,100
So it also looks at if you look at it, it fits into the whole not the idea of the second half of the 19th century.

170
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:24,580
And if you look at it through the lens of citizenship, basically,

171
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:32,290
if you look at read books by Marwa Shukri, what is reading Darwin, it is basically about citizenship.

172
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:39,550
If you look at the seven core ideas which arise from these books on the knocked off,

173
00:19:39,790 --> 00:19:47,140
the whole idea of rationality, freedom, reform, virtue, control, passions and etc., equality of political rights.

174
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:52,479
This is of course, a parody almost of what's what is being done.

175
00:19:52,480 --> 00:20:00,340
But if you look at these these different researches, it does come up with an idea of citizenship more actually than nationalism,

176
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:09,100
because much of what what is being analysed doesn't really fall under nationalism but is a much broader category because it's on rights,

177
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:15,170
other forms of identity, not necessarily nationalism, etc.

178
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:20,590
So if you look at other elements as well, and this looking at bed barons,

179
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:34,060
you see that also what she analyses the whole idea of mother as, as a nation in Egypt, it doesn't really directly have a bearing on,

180
00:20:34,090 --> 00:20:38,110
on citizenship, but you can look at it from that perspective,

181
00:20:38,830 --> 00:20:44,140
especially this whole idea of women should be virtuous, modest, exemplary, compassionate of thought.

182
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:53,440
So this would be the ideal of what a woman's citizen would be in this period, although it's not based on equal rights.

183
00:20:54,850 --> 00:21:01,030
If you look at it, then you have all this whole row of different rights which are being developed at a time.

184
00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:06,610
I won't go into all of this. So political participation is one of them.

185
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:12,370
But there are much more. So the right to education, equal education.

186
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:18,370
So the same curriculum as boys. Higher access to higher education.

187
00:21:18,370 --> 00:21:26,170
These were all elements where women were fighting for the right to work and to receive not just to work, but also receive a salary, etc.

188
00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:33,490
But if you look also at acts of citizenship, you see the right to organise and to organise saloons,

189
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:41,020
publish in journals, organise charity societies, etc. and all these organised boycotts, etc.

190
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:54,040
In the end, however, if you look at how meagre the results are in the 1930s and why there's a counter movement at that point,

191
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:59,290
then you see what I would call the colonial pact, which is highly restrictive.

192
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:07,639
In the end what is possible and the patriarchal system which is being upheld and supported of course is in Egypt.

193
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:17,260
This is highly complicated because the British were not there directly, but indirectly supporting the monarchy, which was a conservative element,

194
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:28,959
and the Wafd eventually submitting through this system by also signing these agreements with the British on their military presence,

195
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,280
etc., a police presence and cultural presence in a way.

196
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:42,440
So what I think is important in this whole development of citizenship is especially crucial that 1937 50.

197
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:51,040
This, I think, is is a period where you can see that citizenship was really developed in the Middle Ages by all kinds of different movements,

198
00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:59,439
and that you have a full fledged idea of what citizenship could have been if the military had not stepped in in the end

199
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:08,410
and turned it into an authoritarian idea of what citizenship is and state citizenship and state feminism in the end.

200
00:23:09,730 --> 00:23:15,580
But it's interesting to look also at the history of this. This whole idea of citizenship and its introduction to the Middle East,

201
00:23:15,580 --> 00:23:24,400
because there is a link between actually Britain and also France directly ideologically in the person of Thomas Marshall.

202
00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:28,300
Here you have him and his book, Citizenship and Social Class.

203
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,740
So what was important in 1930 is this whole idea of poverty, sickness.

204
00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:37,510
That was the reform. Social reform was the main element at the time.

205
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,660
So it was not identity, It was not even Islam.

206
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:46,600
What people would think, although Muslim Brotherhood was important, not in other countries, but it was mostly social reform.

207
00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:57,970
And this is where feminism and women's movement would fit into in this idea of of restructuring Middle Eastern societies and looking at social

208
00:23:57,970 --> 00:24:08,680
rights and this high idea of shared common and equal citizenship also between whether you're Shia or Sunni or Christian or Muslim or whatever,

209
00:24:08,980 --> 00:24:13,330
you have a shared idea of what citizenship in this period is.

210
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:19,720
And it's against the notables and the aristocracy and the monarchies, of course, in the time.

211
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,410
But this is, I think, a period of optimism.

212
00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:28,570
And also, if you look at other movements which come later on, even the Arab Spring,

213
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:39,100
you see that they often look back at this earlier period as a period of hope and try to take elements from this earlier period.

214
00:24:39,730 --> 00:24:43,400
So this is just one figure. Of course, it was a general idea.

215
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,160
It was not based on Marshall's idea, but he was influential because he in Europe and especially in Britain,

216
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:56,620
and of course, he was influential in establishing the welfare state and of Labour in the 1940s and fifties.

217
00:24:57,370 --> 00:25:08,200
So if you look at the genealogy in the Middle East, you have Mohammad Hadid and his daughter who built or designed the library here.

218
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:19,190
He was important. They all studied in London and came out with their with his ideas when he went to Iraq and but also the Egyptian rushes library.

219
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:24,390
But also in France, you have the same elements through a boogie board at that period,

220
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,400
but you have also on it an Islamic version and all these ideas of socialism,

221
00:25:29,410 --> 00:25:37,270
social justice in Islam and Muhammad crossover to create a new idea of Islamic citizenship.

222
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:42,580
And actually it was not opposed to a secular or was opposed to secular state.

223
00:25:42,580 --> 00:25:50,729
But wasn't that different from what was happening in secular movements at the time and their ideas?

224
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:54,080
So there was an exchange also in these in this period of what?

225
00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:58,680
And you see that also in figure like Dorian Sheffield.

226
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,500
But there must be more an even more representative of this whole trend and especially on the left.

227
00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:14,340
So here you see, I like there because she's not part of the older aristocratic class, but she was linked to these.

228
00:26:14,790 --> 00:26:18,230
But she did try to develop her own course.

229
00:26:19,290 --> 00:26:24,090
So here you have a whole range of developments she had from the 1930s.

230
00:26:24,510 --> 00:26:28,020
And her main idea, of course, is on feminism.

231
00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:35,620
A country cannot be free if its women are not. The only solution was to build up a feminist movement to demand full political rights for women.

232
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,400
And that's where she came into conflict with Nasser in the end went on hunger strike, etc.

233
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:50,100
But you see a kind of ambiguity. She's kind of a transitional figure as far as I think, and especially if you look at the role of citizenship,

234
00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:53,580
especially this idea to raise the social and cultural level of Egyptian women and

235
00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:58,350
prepare them for the worthy cause where the use of their rights is worthiness is,

236
00:26:58,350 --> 00:27:03,890
of course, is an older element and not that you immediately have equal rights.

237
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:10,950
You have to earn these rights in a way to become educated and become a citizen before you can really have these rights, as it were.

238
00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:17,640
So that's a different you have a more egalitarian idea in with the leftist.

239
00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:22,530
So if you look here today, you see what happened in the end.

240
00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:30,540
If you look at the Middle Eastern history, of course, this optimistic period did not work out because eventually the state took over and

241
00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:36,390
the military took over in all these revolutions and they became authoritarian.

242
00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:41,140
So what happened to all these different rights in the new welfare state?

243
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,310
And that this is the classic exchange of rights.

244
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,209
So you have the political rights that the the these all these movements in

245
00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:54,420
the 1930s and forties demanded were exchanged for social and economic rights,

246
00:27:55,410 --> 00:28:02,430
which people got new housing, jobs, etc., etc., and the whole idea of social engineering.

247
00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:13,379
So it was from above. So you see earlier, as we saw that the state takes over and creates citizens and here you see that the state takes over,

248
00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:22,710
but using social reform and social rights to give people their their demands, although they don't get it as right as it were.

249
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:24,390
So that's the different thing.

250
00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:35,700
And at the same time, you see that the women and women's movements are also subjected to this state and they are subordinated to authoritarianism.

251
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:41,309
The women do get all these different so the right to have opportunity for work in the public sector,

252
00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:48,000
regulation of working hours for women employees, the right to vote, the right to run for public office.

253
00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:53,520
But what is the the purpose of the right to vote if the state determines exactly what's being done?

254
00:28:53,950 --> 00:28:58,970
And you don't really have an opportunity to interfere with the whole process.

255
00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:03,480
Sort of all these positive effects in the end are limited.

256
00:29:04,050 --> 00:29:13,170
So protective legislation for women, expansion of free education and expansion for welfare services, as Bier writes in her book.

257
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:22,169
But the negative effects of, of course, state domination and of independent feminism and in the end of different publications.

258
00:29:22,170 --> 00:29:26,760
So there's only one state feminist publication which remains what you see.

259
00:29:26,790 --> 00:29:34,319
Before it was a huge amount of different publications from all kinds of different feminist writers

260
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,710
who had established all kinds of different journals from left wing to moderate to Islamist,

261
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,660
etc. So in the end, only one of these remained.

262
00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:52,770
So let's look at the last example. This is what we would what I would call this and this performative feminist

263
00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:59,760
citizenship in an attempt to create an alternative Islamist social contract.

264
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,250
Most of you probably know about Mahmud's book. So what does she do?

265
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,550
She she writes about ethics of self-mastery.

266
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:19,080
Just to get some quotes from her book and see if this is what I think it's one important element that you of of citizenship,

267
00:30:19,290 --> 00:30:24,510
especially this this acts of citizenship. She doesn't mention it in her book.

268
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,070
She she mentions citizenship four times in her book.

269
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:33,420
It's interesting to see that she does mention it in relation to the Arab Spring.

270
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:42,930
So she does recognise that the uprisings are about rights, political rights and social rights.

271
00:30:43,890 --> 00:30:50,310
But I wonder how you would link that to her own book, which she does completely something different in her book.

272
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,290
So let's look at her. It's mostly a kind of self-deception.

273
00:30:54,350 --> 00:31:05,330
In that Islamist movements women impose upon themselves and not being subjected to, although they accept the patriarchy.

274
00:31:05,810 --> 00:31:11,960
She does not see it as something negative, but something creative because it's done by themselves.

275
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:22,430
So organising daily conduct, practicalities of daily living, educating ordinary Muslims and virtue their ethical capacities.

276
00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:30,140
So they create a whole new ethical dimension through all these practices of praying,

277
00:31:30,170 --> 00:31:36,890
meeting, studying Koran instead of the emphasis on agency, everyday resistance, etc.

278
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,790
And of course, the last one embodied actions.

279
00:31:40,790 --> 00:31:46,670
So this whole role of these kind of analysis practices of virtue, techniques of the self.

280
00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:51,799
So it's self-mastery over one's passions and leading an ethical life.

281
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,840
So. And the end, of course, is creation of a virtuous society.

282
00:31:57,890 --> 00:32:05,030
So what is it? The politics of piety. It's in a sense, apolitical and an ethical practice.

283
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:17,210
It's no resistance against the state. It's not emancipatory in the classical sense of individual liberation, and it accepts patriarchy as a hierarchy.

284
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:24,800
But it does not participate in electoral politics, claiming rights, using judicial system to improve the situation of women.

285
00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:32,040
So here you have what she mentions about citizenship, although I think it is about citizenship, but she only mentions it for time.

286
00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:40,070
So what she says about the Arab uprising and feminism or in general for civil and political rights under what people

287
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:47,420
demand for civil and political rights under a democratic system committed to some degree of economic justice.

288
00:32:47,660 --> 00:32:51,080
So this is the classical analysis you have of citizens.

289
00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:56,150
But she doesn't lead to this kind of conclusion from her book.

290
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,400
This is in our preface, and she mentions other times modern Muslim citizens.

291
00:33:01,430 --> 00:33:05,450
So she does connect citizenship and Islam in some ways.

292
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:15,470
Okay. So what she does is to create an alternative concept of citizenship as a liberal in opposition to a liberal secularism.

293
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:20,810
And it's an alternative idea of citizenship formation based on piety.

294
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:27,440
But if you look at at the north up and also all these other feminist or women's movements,

295
00:33:27,950 --> 00:33:31,790
you see much of actually the same kind of elements coming back.

296
00:33:31,970 --> 00:33:44,720
So education, virtue, ethics, dialogue, etc., which you see already from the 19th century, which also Marilynne analyses and other people analyses.

297
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:51,230
When you look at the whole debate on marriages and how marriage is supposed to have a modern form,

298
00:33:51,230 --> 00:33:55,040
etc., then you see also many of these elements coming back.

299
00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:02,900
So to conclude, eventually, looking back at all these different moments, what can we see?

300
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:08,070
If you look at all these different books on women's movements, women's rights, etc.?

301
00:34:08,490 --> 00:34:11,820
And if you look in connection with citizenship,

302
00:34:12,390 --> 00:34:20,070
I think it's a it's an interesting way to to look at the Middle East history and especially in this case on women,

303
00:34:20,220 --> 00:34:25,950
because then you see that citizenship is a kind of element which does go through this whole history

304
00:34:25,950 --> 00:34:30,450
and these different movements as kind of a red line which connects these different movements.

305
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:35,160
So even Saba Mahmood's attempt to do something completely different.

306
00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:41,580
If you look at it in perspective from citizenship, it's not really that it is different,

307
00:34:41,580 --> 00:34:47,850
but it is not completely contradictory with other elements is just another way

308
00:34:47,850 --> 00:34:53,080
of trying to create a new kind of community with a new kind of citizenship.

309
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:57,060
But this is an element that you see throughout all of these different books.

310
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:06,570
So it highlights citizenship, highlights the dimensions of rights, inclusion, exclusion, different forms of socialisation and cultural production.

311
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:18,330
And it's I think it's more fundamental than nationalism or Islamism, because these are mostly ideologies, but they contain citizenship within them.

312
00:35:19,740 --> 00:35:25,980
So it's important to eventually to use the concept to be able to understand them.

313
00:35:26,130 --> 00:35:30,390
And I think the women's movement highlights some of these elements,

314
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:37,350
especially more actually than other movements, because they're so much focussed on rights and practices, etc.

315
00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:45,360
So you get a completely different idea of what citizenship is and particularly the problematic dimensions

316
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:52,800
of citizenship in the Middle East and all the kinds of different contentious elements within it.

317
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,570
So what you see actually, if you look at it from this perspective,

318
00:35:56,580 --> 00:36:02,760
that a lot of this history is basically on the struggle of defining what citizenship is.

319
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,780
So Islamist movements would have a different way of defining what citizenship is,

320
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,790
although they might not recognise it as something that is called citizenship.

321
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:20,130
And even if you look at, for instance, in Egypt at the moment at Sisi, he does have a concept of citizenship.

322
00:36:20,130 --> 00:36:22,380
So you see it coming back and all the different elements.

323
00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:31,350
Of course, it's a completely authoritarian idea of what this is about was based on stability, not political rights, of course.

324
00:36:32,220 --> 00:36:37,920
And the idea of that you would without stability, you would not have economic progress, etc.

325
00:36:38,250 --> 00:36:46,440
And it's, of course, based completely on the state of the state as the kind of guaranteed to identity, etc.

326
00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:50,680
So I'll leave that. When.

327
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:58,690
This is very inclusive and comprehensive.

328
00:36:59,510 --> 00:37:03,069
There's a ton to discuss. Mary, thank you very much.

329
00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:09,129
And thank you all for that very rich paper. And yeah, just to say, it's it's a great pleasure to have you all here.

330
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:15,070
We've we first met when we were both students in Cairo, so that is a long time ago.

331
00:37:16,030 --> 00:37:18,520
So really, really good to have you here.

332
00:37:18,910 --> 00:37:24,580
I'm just going to I'll try to be really brief and, you know, sort of starting off with what you say at the end,

333
00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:28,240
women's movements highlight essential aspects of citizenship.

334
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:31,540
And that certainly, I think, you know, you've demonstrated that.

335
00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:40,389
And that's that's very important. And you've also shown how it was differently positioned at different historical conjuncture as

336
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:47,020
there are shifting relationships between citizens and political authorities and all these things.

337
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:52,719
So, you know, it's I agree with you that citizenship is a really good way to sort of think about all these things,

338
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:58,750
and also that it's such a good comparative mode to think about Middle Eastern societies,

339
00:37:58,750 --> 00:38:07,090
other societies, and to get away from the essentialism that so often, you know, is a problem and still a problem in the study of the region.

340
00:38:07,930 --> 00:38:15,490
But what I want to do is maybe pull out what you also called some of the more problematic aspects of citizenship.

341
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:20,320
And you certainly mentioned these, but I want to maybe dwell on them a little bit more.

342
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,340
So you see women's movements highlight essential aspects of citizenship.

343
00:38:24,670 --> 00:38:33,550
And to that, I would also add the concept and practices of citizenship highlight essential and cross societal aspects of patriarchal,

344
00:38:33,820 --> 00:38:38,530
social and familiar organisations. And you certainly certainly recognise that.

345
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,139
And I think that this is one way in which we also really need to think about citizenship.

346
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:48,670
What does it tell us about enduring issues and problems?

347
00:38:48,670 --> 00:38:57,249
And especially the issue of gendered citizenship is something where women and men are assigned differential roles and differential.

348
00:38:57,250 --> 00:39:00,010
There are different expectations in terms of what they do,

349
00:39:00,010 --> 00:39:06,880
which is in tension with the constitutions of certain states that say, you know, all citizens are equal before the law.

350
00:39:06,910 --> 00:39:09,820
But in fact, they they really aren't.

351
00:39:10,330 --> 00:39:18,940
And certainly restrictions on women's full citizenship have often been ignored or resisted in the name of cultural specificity as well,

352
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:26,110
that this is something that, you know, this our culture is special in this way and we can't make changes.

353
00:39:26,410 --> 00:39:32,410
So I think that all of these things come into the question, the question of of citizenship.

354
00:39:33,010 --> 00:39:38,860
So I went back to what I think is a groundbreaking book, Ruth Lister's book,

355
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,569
Citizenship Feminist Perspectives, which first came out in the late 1990s,

356
00:39:43,570 --> 00:39:49,240
and then there was a revised edition and she begins with an observation and I quote,

357
00:39:49,540 --> 00:39:54,820
Citizenship is an ostensibly gender neutral concept that in fact is deeply gendered.

358
00:39:55,090 --> 00:39:59,680
A universalist idea that masks gendered and often raised particularity.

359
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,830
And of course, this is something that feminists have recognised since, you know, go back to Olympe Digger's French Revolution.

360
00:40:05,860 --> 00:40:09,579
Mary Wollstonecraft Of course. And in her conclusion,

361
00:40:09,580 --> 00:40:16,299
Lister says citizenship provides an invaluable strategic theoretical concept for the analysis of

362
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:22,090
women's subordination and a potentially powerful political weapon in the struggle against it.

363
00:40:22,090 --> 00:40:27,850
And so I think maybe that's even though I don't focus specifically on the term citizenship in my book,

364
00:40:27,850 --> 00:40:32,169
that's something I'm really trying to struggle with and and work through.

365
00:40:32,170 --> 00:40:40,990
And I guess I just want to mention several areas where I see this and ask you to maybe comment a little bit on them.

366
00:40:41,290 --> 00:40:50,019
And the first is the whole question of, you know, what do you do in terms of citizenship when power is hierarchical rather than generative?

367
00:40:50,020 --> 00:40:53,830
In other words, when you've got a hierarchical power structure in society,

368
00:40:54,340 --> 00:41:05,590
and this partly can result in group based or kinship based citizenship, where individuals and particularly women in this case are disadvantaged.

369
00:41:05,860 --> 00:41:09,909
How do you maybe from the perspective of citizenship studies,

370
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:16,000
how can we think about hierarchical power relationships and maybe try to work out

371
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,620
ways that that those can be resisted or that have been resisted in the past?

372
00:41:20,620 --> 00:41:22,089
If we're thinking historically?

373
00:41:22,090 --> 00:41:32,530
So in these various social contracts that you outlined, where does the power come in and how does that affect the way citizen ship works?

374
00:41:32,530 --> 00:41:41,140
And, you know, for instance, and I think one could look at this in each period, the continuing centrality of patriarchal authority in the family.

375
00:41:41,380 --> 00:41:53,500
So it's not just the state, but it's the family. And that's about law, personal status, law, but it's also about access to resources and and how then.

376
00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:01,030
Women and and subordinated men can actually work their citizenship in ways that that help them.

377
00:42:01,870 --> 00:42:08,199
And certainly one way that we see that centrality of patriarchal authority in many, many societies,

378
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:15,400
Muslim majority societies, is like the concept of will they you know, the concept of male guardianship of a female.

379
00:42:15,410 --> 00:42:21,190
So they're right. There is a way in which citizenship is skewed towards men.

380
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:30,940
And, you know, I think my my heroines in info is I think she recognised very much that oppression begins in the family.

381
00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:35,079
And Lister has a lot to say about this, not with regards to the Middle East,

382
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:43,450
but the whole question of public and private and how defining a realm called the private realm allows this

383
00:42:43,870 --> 00:42:52,240
patriarchal power to continue by having a space that is supposedly away from politics and away from public scrutiny,

384
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,490
and where that can be a space of oppression as well as of affirmation.

385
00:42:58,390 --> 00:43:05,350
And you mentioned that the question of terminology and this to me also intersects with the question of power,

386
00:43:05,770 --> 00:43:12,969
because who has the right to define the terminology and who has the right to make sure that certain meanings work?

387
00:43:12,970 --> 00:43:22,720
So, for instance, around the question of rights and yeah, I've been fascinated by how the term Huck and how cloak how this sort of shifts

388
00:43:22,990 --> 00:43:27,819
in the late 19th century from being something that means with regards to women,

389
00:43:27,820 --> 00:43:33,610
something that means, you know, the Xhosa, the what is due to a woman in marriage.

390
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,760
So what, by getting married? What can she expect as her as her rights?

391
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:51,130
But then it becomes more general and it becomes sort of Huck and Mara, the right of the woman, and then it becomes a whole culture of women's rights.

392
00:43:51,550 --> 00:43:59,560
But throughout this and then you also have this fascinating term of Huck and muscles of rights that have been stripped away,

393
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:07,899
showing up in the press in the 19th century. But the thing is, there's still an ambiguity around that because people mean different things by rights.

394
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:13,840
So you have this term rights, but different people mean it in different ways.

395
00:44:14,170 --> 00:44:17,980
So you have debates over freedom, you know, career.

396
00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:23,410
So what kind of right does a woman have to hurry and what does that mean?

397
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:32,290
So I think that question of who has the power and the ability to define these terms is a really important one for citizenship studies.

398
00:44:32,290 --> 00:44:36,040
And I'd be interested in hearing you say a bit more about this.

399
00:44:36,670 --> 00:44:45,100
And along with that, this question of you pointed to duration of field and she talks about worthiness, rights and worthiness.

400
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:53,649
And this seems to me another iteration of the whole question of rights and duties, which is, I think, pretty ubiquitous in citizenship.

401
00:44:53,650 --> 00:45:01,840
I mean, you get that list of brings up, for instance, the the the example of New Labour and the way they talked about,

402
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,870
you know, the you have to fulfil your responsibilities before you can really deserve rights.

403
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:11,499
So I think this is another way in which, you know,

404
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:20,559
you have obligations or duties and you have rights and who is going to define what those are and how they are are gendered.

405
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:30,280
And one thing that I notice when I'm reading newspapers, Arabic newspapers from the 1890s and a bit later constantly women are,

406
00:45:30,310 --> 00:45:35,590
you know, this is always paired, it's like ad hoc will worship right and duty.

407
00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:40,090
And it's somehow paired a lot more for women than it is for men in public discourse.

408
00:45:40,090 --> 00:45:45,549
And I think that's an interesting thing that that needs to be taken on board.

409
00:45:45,550 --> 00:45:51,160
And it seems, if anything, it's the wedge of that is emphasised more than the rights.

410
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:59,410
And again, these terms are malleable in the sense that people are assigning different definitions,

411
00:45:59,410 --> 00:46:03,730
you know, to So duties are mostly assumed to be women in the home.

412
00:46:04,270 --> 00:46:07,929
But some feminists I think are trying to expand that.

413
00:46:07,930 --> 00:46:14,560
But again, who's to, who's who's the one who who actually has the ability to define that?

414
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:22,180
And Lister also notes that, you know, duties imply also that one has the ability to fulfil them.

415
00:46:22,180 --> 00:46:25,840
So you have to have the resources that allow you to fulfil those rights.

416
00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:30,820
But then what happens if the duty kind of outweighs the rights?

417
00:46:30,820 --> 00:46:38,320
And again, I think about the discourse on girls education at the turn of the century where it was all about family duty,

418
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:46,329
you know, the, the maternal is discourse that the mother has to be educated in order to to be a good citizen.

419
00:46:46,330 --> 00:46:51,340
And I actually think the maternal ism, I think is a direct I think there is a direct relationship.

420
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:56,520
It's one way that women are claiming. Citizenship is through the maternal role.

421
00:46:56,910 --> 00:47:05,760
But then what happens if education for girls is defined instrumentally as this is so that girls can become good mothers?

422
00:47:06,030 --> 00:47:12,270
What about what happens to girls right to self-realisation and to go further in studies and so forth?

423
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:23,970
So again, I think all of this actually comes into that nexus of kind of authority and the power to to define, you know, the FDA in the 1930s.

424
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,950
I found that really interesting that you saw that as a period of maybe more freedom.

425
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:36,150
And I wonder if you could say a bit more in terms of gender, because to me, the FDA, it's a very masculine concept.

426
00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:43,830
You know, it's it's really. And when they talk about equal rights, do they really mean equal rights for everybody?

427
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:50,730
Where do they place women in this? And just finally, one thing, when you talk about the NATA.

428
00:47:51,060 --> 00:47:59,760
With regards to Sabah Mahmood's, emphasis on morality and ethics, and I agree, the terms are really they really echo.

429
00:48:00,030 --> 00:48:07,139
But I think the difference is I see the difference as being that in the NATA there is a recognition that these had

430
00:48:07,140 --> 00:48:14,969
to become public issues and they they had to be they had to be determined and fought over in the public sphere,

431
00:48:14,970 --> 00:48:19,070
which I don't really see so much in Mahmud's paper.

432
00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:22,320
So sorry. I hope that makes it make some sense.

433
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:26,460
Just a few kind of thoughts. No, thank you very much.

434
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,940
If I could. I think if I could. I know it's quite possible, but if you can answer briefly.

435
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,530
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yes.

436
00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:42,659
I'm glad you brought up all these issues. And then it's good.

437
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:53,040
Of course, if you look at it from a different perspective, because I'm just focusing on citizenship that I'm trying to pull in women's issues into it.

438
00:48:53,670 --> 00:49:03,540
But you're you're you're completely right. And especially on the on the issue of power, of course, that it's a determining element in all of these.

439
00:49:04,830 --> 00:49:11,760
That runs through the whole history every time again and again that these relations are asymmetrical.

440
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:24,510
So, yeah, I agree completely with you, and especially you're also fascinating in this terminology.

441
00:49:25,110 --> 00:49:34,970
That's something to really look into how that changes constantly and even now how it's being used in all these different but especially in the north,

442
00:49:34,980 --> 00:49:41,190
a period, it's been very extensively looked at the whole idea of shop and all these different.

443
00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:45,150
Mm hmm. So much.