1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:05,490 Good evening and welcome. My name is Eugene Grogan and as director of the Centre, 2 00:00:05,670 --> 00:00:10,020 It's my great pleasure to welcome you all to the second session of our Monday 3 00:00:10,020 --> 00:00:14,070 night seminars examining the political options following the cost of war. 4 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:21,060 Before we begin, may I just remind everyone that in the event of a fire, there are three escapes in this room. 5 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:25,010 They're marked by green lights over the doors. But there's two on either side here. 6 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:29,670 There's one on the back. The doors here lead down the staircase and outside directly. 7 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:33,750 So if there's a source of fire for that, please make your way to these doors and out. 8 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:39,480 And can I please ask once again that no one obstructed that back firing at the 9 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:43,170 back of the hall so that in the event that we needed to evacuate the room, 10 00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:47,309 that we could do so without obstruction. So please keep that back. 11 00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:50,490 Feel free. Thank you. 12 00:00:53,810 --> 00:00:57,170 Last week we opened the seminar series, Setting out the Agenda, 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:04,160 what we hope to achieve and creating a platform for dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians, 14 00:01:04,370 --> 00:01:08,270 examining what the political options coming out of the Gaza war might look like. 15 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:20,300 Our view in that was that we wanted to privilege the voices of politically engaged people who had the most at stake and to avoid the tendency that 16 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:27,590 we have outside of Israel and Palestine to say what we think reasonable solutions should be and then try to impose them on the people involved. 17 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:31,550 We thought that it would be most constructive for us to hear directly from people from the region. 18 00:01:32,210 --> 00:01:41,700 And in that spirit. It is with great pleasure that I welcome Professor Guy Tamir, the president of the college, to address the seminar. 19 00:01:43,430 --> 00:01:51,830 Professor Tamir is, as I said, president of big burial of one of Israel's oldest colleges of liberal arts college, 20 00:01:52,610 --> 00:01:57,700 which seemed very much in line with her own political views and trainings. 21 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:08,929 No stranger to Oxford, she returns to her alma mater tonight, where she was a student affiliated college from 1985 to 1989, 22 00:02:08,930 --> 00:02:16,430 working with the legendary Isaiah Berlin to examine the seeming oxymoron of liberal nationalism. 23 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:24,410 It was a theme that she was to make her own in two books published with Princeton University Press. 24 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:31,640 The first liberal nationalism came out in 1993 and more recently in 2019. 25 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:34,760 Why nationalism? Still a good question. 26 00:02:36,950 --> 00:02:45,290 One of the founders of Peace now Unity, was elected to the Knesset in 2003 as a Labour MK, where she served for seven years. 27 00:02:45,620 --> 00:02:53,900 But even before entering the Knesset as a member of Parliament, she was invited to serve as a member of Cabinet. 28 00:02:54,170 --> 00:03:00,980 Her first speech as a minister of immigrants absorption in Ehud Barak's government in 1999. 29 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:09,560 She then returned to Cabinet in 2006 when Ehud Barak invited her to serve in her in his cabinet. 30 00:03:10,820 --> 00:03:14,330 I'm sorry, Olmert. Olmert, the first one, but not the second one. 31 00:03:14,750 --> 00:03:25,069 Other than revealing myself to be a scholar of the Arab world, But at any rate, 26, 32 00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:34,730 regardless of who the prime minister was and was invited to serve in Cabinet as education minister through her years in academia, 33 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,540 as a political activist in the Knesset and in the Cabinet, 34 00:03:40,310 --> 00:03:47,330 nobody has developed the kind of networks and understanding of the society and the politics of Israel that would be unmatched. 35 00:03:47,630 --> 00:03:56,990 And so we were delighted that she accepted our invitation to come and speak tonight to us about public 36 00:03:56,990 --> 00:04:03,980 opinion in Israel and the constraints that that imposes on the political options after the seventh year. 37 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,640 Would you please join me in extending a very warm welcome to. 38 00:04:15,870 --> 00:04:24,090 Thank you, Jane. It's official. Do they have officers? When did you first come to me? 39 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:34,500 When I would come and join the seminar, which was early after the events of the 7th of October. 40 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:41,640 I wrote back. I usually say I'm happy to come, but I can't possibly write the word happy. 41 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:56,760 So I would say I'm winning. And I think that captures the feeling that I still have and is still very common in Israel today. 42 00:04:58,030 --> 00:05:08,580 About 2 minutes. It's very hard to convey the facts of the sadness and the mourning. 43 00:05:09,770 --> 00:05:18,799 We experience on a daily basis. I work a lot. 44 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:28,160 So when I go to bed, huge gaps in the cigarette. I open my Facebook and I look for recipes because I love cooking. 45 00:05:29,870 --> 00:05:34,400 So I like that. And the last thing is that maybe Friday evening, listen to this. 46 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,850 I don't open my Facebook. Because if I open my Facebook. 47 00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:50,200 I see faces of young, the people, the families, the stories. 48 00:05:50,860 --> 00:06:04,750 It's like an endless roll of dust. And I think this experience shapes the way we now live and feel and function. 49 00:06:05,860 --> 00:06:15,170 Grief is very difficult to deal with, and national police is even harder to deal with. 50 00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:19,860 Because your own grief is echoed everywhere. 51 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,179 On news. In the street. People, you know, people don't ask you anymore in the street. 52 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:31,690 How are you? Because nobody knows what to say. 53 00:06:32,350 --> 00:06:35,460 People say, well, considering that stuff's. 54 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:40,800 And considering the terrible things that are happening around us, I'm so much. 55 00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:50,180 Did they pressure to witness what happened on the seven of October? 56 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,940 Is it north? And. 57 00:06:56,330 --> 00:07:01,660 I think shapes. A collective experience of trauma. 58 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:09,090 Probably similar. Maybe. Only to the six. 59 00:07:09,470 --> 00:07:16,670 To the Yom Kippur War. To the 73 War. I definitely am not going to use the Holocaust as an example. 60 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:23,120 I don't think the Holocaust is a proper example, though it is very common in Israel now to talk about the Holocaust. 61 00:07:24,170 --> 00:07:29,300 I think it's a terrible thing. But we need proportion. 62 00:07:29,570 --> 00:07:34,250 And the thing that we lack now on all sides is proportion. 63 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:46,820 So one day I heard this interview with a very old lady from one of the people saying, you know, now the heroes of Israel are the kibbutzim. 64 00:07:47,730 --> 00:07:50,810 Well, mothers who are really resilient stood in. 65 00:07:51,260 --> 00:07:56,550 Unbelievable. Terrible conditions to defend and make sure that the children. 66 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:07,560 And she's a Holocaust survivor. And. She was asked, you know, she stayed in a room with two little babies for 14 hours. 67 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,930 How they survived. Her son was killed. And they said to her. 68 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:17,920 So it's like the Holocaust. And she said, No. 69 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,490 In the Holocaust. I was there for four years and I had no state. 70 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:34,960 It's not the same thing. And I think it's very important for us to say that something terrible shattering happened to us. 71 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:41,250 But it still. We can go on. 72 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:49,810 And the question I think that is on the table here today is how can we structure a better future? 73 00:08:51,010 --> 00:09:08,590 Now, it is very difficult under these circumstances to be positive or open or even express empathy to the sorrow and the pain of the other side. 74 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:18,440 Because I'm sure that if you'll have somebody from Gaza standing here, they would express horror and fear and devastation. 75 00:09:19,490 --> 00:09:27,710 And I think they'd come see us and we can't see them at the moment because it is all about survival, the way they've tried to survive. 76 00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:40,010 Your first look around you and you try to protect yourself and yourself and your friends, and only then you are able to go further. 77 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,800 So the question what Israel thinks at the moment. 78 00:09:49,460 --> 00:09:54,140 If there is such an answer, is a bit irrelevant because the talks. 79 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:11,190 And now grounded in animosity, in fear, in the revenge, and a desire to somehow regain some security in the future of Israel. 80 00:10:14,070 --> 00:10:19,140 But as we all know, this is something amazing that I learned. 81 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:23,400 Time and again, humans are more resilient than they think they are. 82 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:31,040 And we haven't reached the point of resilience. But we will reach him. 83 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:38,970 And when we will reach it, it will be the beginning of a moment of reflection. 84 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,050 So first of all, I have very little expectation. Of. 85 00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:48,610 Reflectiveness among Israelis right now. 86 00:10:51,580 --> 00:10:53,920 True. I would love to have a government that reflects. 87 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,560 But you don't want to hear what I think you the government, regardless of what happened in October. 88 00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:10,030 I think our government is now exactly doing the opposite, the opposite of what should be done. 89 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:19,720 It incites the public to be more extreme rather than somehow. 90 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,730 Helping to manage the crisis and the crisis is risk. 91 00:11:25,210 --> 00:11:28,570 They haven't created the crisis. The Hamas created the crisis. 92 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,590 But how you treat the crisis means a lot. 93 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:47,020 And when you start thinking about something in a certain way that shapes also the solutions that are that seem feasible to you. 94 00:11:49,670 --> 00:12:03,770 So I would like to say one more thing before I sort of try and reflect about where we're going from here, just because I think that it is. 95 00:12:03,770 --> 00:12:07,510 I said this is long holocaust. But it is. 96 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:12,110 A traumatic, horrifying event. 97 00:12:13,150 --> 00:12:21,370 In the history of Israel. And I think it shows something about the Hamas and our enemies on the other side. 98 00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:29,400 I have been supporting negotiations with the Palestinians since I was very young. 99 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:43,770 In retrospect, maybe too young have an opinion. But, you know, I still believe that if there would be some good development in the Middle East, 100 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,270 it would be based on negotiations with the Palestinians. 101 00:12:50,350 --> 00:12:55,830 But I don't see the Hamas as a possible partner in this thing. 102 00:12:57,420 --> 00:13:00,690 That is, I think, something that is very important to remember. 103 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:13,709 And this is why the 7th of October is not just another intifada or another case where you are asked to respond to in violence, 104 00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:18,180 but nevertheless political, national liberation. 105 00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:25,680 If you were in the Hamas government. And I wish all these people who shout Israel should be free from the river to the sea. 106 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:34,870 What with the Hamas movement, you would say that the only purpose of the Hamas is if you had. 107 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:43,210 It's a religious war. Is to let Israel kill the Jews here, the infidels. 108 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:52,360 It's a jihadist movement. And the way that you have your movements, I can't see your point of negotiation. 109 00:13:53,680 --> 00:14:01,150 And when people say to me from the river to the sea, I understand that I have no place in that solution. 110 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:15,840 The whole idea of reconciliation is that just the two sides will find a less satisfying yet liveable solution. 111 00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:23,150 And the Hamas doesn't want us to. And I think that should be extremely clear. 112 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,320 And what they have done on the 7th of October. 113 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:34,600 Meant to frighten us to death. And it did, because it wasn't just killing people. 114 00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:40,920 It was defused. It was the rape. It was the beheading. 115 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:51,330 It was burning people alive. It was something that is for me, outside of the human range of actions. 116 00:14:53,140 --> 00:15:02,590 And it was purposeful that we saw the people from Hamas coming with instructions how to do it, because they wanted us to be afraid. 117 00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:08,470 And we are afraid. Israel has been shrinking since the war to the centre. 118 00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:14,620 No one in the south, No one in the north. So the Hamas conquered Israel by fear. 119 00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:23,980 And by the way, we did the same thing to Gaza. It's about making people so frightened that they go away. 120 00:15:25,270 --> 00:15:30,610 But as we know, the truth of the matter is nobody is going to go away because we don't have where to go and they don't have to go. 121 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:40,840 So I think that at some point, the the dialogue will have to change. 122 00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:49,690 And I think the question that we are asking ourselves right now is, can we change the president? 123 00:15:51,910 --> 00:16:04,330 So the first thing that I think is extremely important to understand that nothing will change until the hostages will be brought back home safely. 124 00:16:05,290 --> 00:16:09,670 This time is the time of bringing back the hostages. 125 00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:18,790 Everybody in Israel lives the experience of the hostages every hour of the day. 126 00:16:19,690 --> 00:16:23,329 If you go off of the Israel now, you go to the airport. 127 00:16:23,330 --> 00:16:28,450 There are pictures. You go to a shopping mall. The pictures people have haven't. 128 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:37,260 Constantly in their mind, especially that we know that people that are kept there have been tortured, 129 00:16:37,710 --> 00:16:43,680 raped, abused, and some not some quite a lot of them died every day. 130 00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:49,410 Many of them are elderly. Many of them are women. 131 00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:55,100 Most of the children came back and said to death, We don't know whether they are alive or not. 132 00:16:56,180 --> 00:17:04,220 But if releasing the hostages is something that is absolutely, absolutely necessary for any future solution. 133 00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:16,110 No Israelis that right left centre would say we can survive with a solution that does not bring the hostages back. 134 00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:25,440 So that's I think taking the hostages was one of the most not only brutal, 135 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:38,370 but one of the most influential aspects of what happened and is now if there is really a firm precondition for everything else is the hostages. 136 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:46,000 Second is that. In order for the hostilities to be. 137 00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:53,050 To end. People in the north and the south should feel safe to go back home. 138 00:17:55,180 --> 00:18:03,790 My family lives partially in Manara, which is a kibbutz in the north and partly in Mosul in the south. 139 00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:10,300 They are all evacuees that nobody wants or can go back home. 140 00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:17,470 Third of Israel is evacuated. People need to be able to go back home. 141 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,180 Israel cannot know country. Sometimes we forget about Israel. 142 00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:30,640 Maybe some countries can live with, you know. With people being held in captivity. 143 00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:37,750 And the Japanese. I lived for many years with people held in Korea and Americans living with people with being held in Vietnam. 144 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:41,350 Israel, No, but territorially. 145 00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:48,220 Israel cannot survive this way now. People need to go home and they need to have enough of a security to go home 146 00:18:48,550 --> 00:18:52,870 and to feel safe when they go home with their children and their families. 147 00:18:54,510 --> 00:19:05,080 So finding a guarantee and I know there are no absolute guarantees that no eternal guarantee is unrealistic. 148 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:14,280 I'm old. I've seen everything, but at least enough of a guarantee that people will be able to go back home is absolutely essential. 149 00:19:15,630 --> 00:19:23,820 And you should remember that the people there in the cells that were slaughtered were not only the best people, they were peace lovers. 150 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:29,159 The people that were slaughtered were active in the peace movement. 151 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,540 They used to go to Gaza to help the Gazans survive. 152 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,980 I don't think they made the Gaza life in Gaza wonderful because life in Gaza has been terrible for many years. 153 00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:44,490 But there were people fighting for people in Gaza. 154 00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:52,680 Our friends Vivian Silva, who was burned to ashes, was one of the biggest peace activists. 155 00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:59,680 She was buried in her home life. People will not take this risk. 156 00:20:01,030 --> 00:20:07,809 And I decided not to bring pictures because I think there is now too many you know, it's a tyranny of the eye. 157 00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:17,480 We see it a lot and we think. And we don't think enough because seeing is now dictating how we react. 158 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,080 And what you see is really hard to take in. 159 00:20:22,010 --> 00:20:26,210 So I know a lot of Google companies are now showing all these terrible videos. 160 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,430 I decided not to do it. I think you are all able to imagine that in your mind's. 161 00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:42,950 But people need security in Israel. And the third thing is that we all know, whether it's the Israelis, the Palestinians, 162 00:20:43,670 --> 00:20:48,440 and I think the region, because don't forget, this is a regional issue, okay? 163 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:54,170 We are not disconnected from the conflict between the United States and Iran. 164 00:20:55,190 --> 00:21:03,660 Iran is a big player in this game. Iranian forces formed an odd thing in Yemen that they didn't know even existed. 165 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,310 I must say everybody in the beginning said, Why? 166 00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:11,900 Why are they part of the game? To the Hezbollah? 167 00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:14,540 To the jihad, Islamic Jihad. 168 00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:27,170 It's an Iranian game and it's an Iranian game playing against the Americans, the regime that brings the two power into play. 169 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:33,800 Unfortunately, in our region, by the way, for those of you who know anything, we if you know the history of this region, 170 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:40,669 most of whatever begins and ends with the fact that we are in a tiny piece of the 171 00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:47,750 world when everybody tried to control and then left in a way that created a conflict. 172 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:59,990 The Ottomans, the Brits, the Middle East are somehow being divided and left alone to solve its own problems. 173 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,000 And now I think that's, I think, the most important message. 174 00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:11,210 We cannot solve on our own. There is long enough. 175 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:19,110 Resources. Military resources. Human Resources. 176 00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:24,710 Leadership. Consensus. In the region. 177 00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:30,400 To move in it. Gaza is paralysed. 178 00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:42,770 Whether the Hamas is there or not. At the moment, I don't think they can do anything but survive. 179 00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:56,820 Israel is a survivor. While Jordan is terrified that Islamic fundamentalism will start erupting in Jordan. 180 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:02,370 Egypt is terrified that Islamic fundamentalism will erupt in Egypt. 181 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:12,430 Think about how unwilling the Egyptians are even to open the door for a period of time to allow the people of Gaza to move out. 182 00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:17,780 If they blocked the road. And you probably know the math, right? 183 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,450 I wrote this little thing and interrupted this huge thing. 184 00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:29,110 And some Palestinians would have crossed the border and stayed in some camps across the border from Gaza into Egypt. 185 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:32,300 Nothing would happen to Egypt. Egypt is enormous, right? 186 00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:35,750 It's the Sinai. I served in the Sinai and will decide. I will. 187 00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:41,600 And place for us, the Palestinians and Tunisians. 188 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:54,020 It's really a huge difference. But the Egyptians are fearing the implications of the conflict on Egypt, and Sisi is very clear about it. 189 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,100 The king of Jordan is very clear about this. 190 00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:09,290 He has played the role, the game and the Lebanese are also frightening, frightened that, you know, this will spill to Lebanon. 191 00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:12,740 And it's that close to spilling actually, it is spilling into Lebanon. 192 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,990 And the question is how badly will Lebanon will be hurt now by this event? 193 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:23,300 And the Hezbollah is playing this very delicate role, the ring around their part of the world, 194 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:29,630 but not exactly part of the world, are really responding, but are actually paralysing the north. 195 00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:34,790 And, you know, it can erupt. I don't know what we're talking is going to happen. 196 00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:40,940 It's not something nothing's stable in the region. So this is a destabilised region. 197 00:24:41,090 --> 00:24:44,660 It's sort of all these regions of the region is very. 198 00:24:47,300 --> 00:25:00,770 And unless there will be a lot of really global attempts to rethink the future of the region, it will erupt again and again and again. 199 00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:03,590 It's like a volcano every few years interrupts. 200 00:25:04,790 --> 00:25:23,360 And over all these eruptions, there were never, I think, any major successes in setting up a more stable solution, at least for a while. 201 00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:28,400 You know, when I was a child, my mother really loved the Bible, so she would read the Bible. 202 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:35,150 We are a very secular, but she loved the Bible, so she would read the Bible for me, for those of you know, the Bible. 203 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:46,970 Telling the story of the people of Israel. It says every after every war and the country was quiet for 40 years and always said 40 years. 204 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:53,300 That's why forever. Now, that's why I want to 40 years. 205 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,740 I'll say that for 40 years of quiet. 206 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:06,260 But something needs to be done to attend to the problems of the region from the outside. 207 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,520 What? I mean, I'm not saying anything new. 208 00:26:10,850 --> 00:26:15,260 I think the Biden administration. 209 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,650 Then God forbid that we wouldn't have been able to cope with what happened without by then. 210 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:27,600 But he's getting weaker. Hugely support to Israel. 211 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,980 The Biden administration is now airing all sorts of proposals. 212 00:26:35,970 --> 00:26:38,090 And something really interesting happened. 213 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:47,190 Again, as I said, I'm a veteran of the peace movement, so I still remember the early days of the peace movement. 214 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,440 You may remember it well. You could say a Palestinian state using the Palestinian entity. 215 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:00,840 And then you said the Palestinian state. And then the concept died in the last few election in Israel. 216 00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:06,670 Nobody said Palestinian state. It was like. It evaporates? 217 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:12,000 No, because by then started speaking about the Palestinian state. 218 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,660 Bibi is saying, I am the only one. 219 00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:22,030 Who can stop the creation of a Palestinian state. 220 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:30,040 Which means that the next election results in moments about the next election are going to be about a Palestinian state. 221 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,210 And all my friends will think they can avoid it. 222 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:38,860 I think are wrong, adjusted to both Lapid and guns. 223 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:46,270 You think you can avoid it? First interview, Bibi said, I'm the only one who can stop a Palestinian state. 224 00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:54,800 The next person asked you, And what's your opinion? You can't say I have no opinion about you. 225 00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:05,300 So the Palestinians, this is going to be the question of the next election, which is in a way for me, the good news, 226 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:12,290 because we finally have to look at what it's not something that we can chop under the carpet if we see every time we shut it under the carpet, 227 00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:17,450 if comes that the Palestinians are not going to disappear, we're not going to disappear. 228 00:28:17,450 --> 00:28:26,210 The country is not going to disappear. I think three things we have learned from the present situation. 229 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,100 A, It must be built top down. 230 00:28:31,670 --> 00:28:41,570 All my life I've been working on bottom up people to fair track to talking and negotiations. 231 00:28:42,750 --> 00:28:48,070 It's also part of the build-up of Negotiator for I don't know how many years Geneva. 232 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:57,950 I've dedicated so many hours to people, to people in order to come up with a solution for a while and do a reasonable solutions. 233 00:28:57,950 --> 00:29:04,800 But they were always rejected. Now the move does not allow negotiations for people to people. 234 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,750 There's no second tribe Palestinians. 235 00:29:09,410 --> 00:29:16,520 I think one of the few people speaking Palestinian friends that we text each other, there's absolutely no way we can meet each other. 236 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,680 I can't live with my friends in Gaza or in Ramallah. It's impossible. 237 00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:28,680 It's. Too much fluids. So the solution could come doped up. 238 00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:43,370 Now, where's the talk? The second thing we learn from the present conflict is that, as I said, this is a regional and maybe global game. 239 00:29:45,050 --> 00:29:51,440 We are players in a game that we were going to construct and. 240 00:29:52,740 --> 00:30:01,090 If you ask why October hasn't. Probably because of this Saudi initiative that threatens. 241 00:30:02,350 --> 00:30:07,370 To leave the Palestinian issues. Outside of the dialogue. 242 00:30:07,940 --> 00:30:12,080 And and the people said, okay, there were the Abraham agreements. 243 00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:19,850 Palestinians were left dumbfounded would be so. Do you agree with the Palestinians or not there? 244 00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:24,740 I think that was one of the reasons for the timing of what happened. 245 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,680 Again, nothing that I say justified what happened. 246 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,670 But we should understand that there is a political process behind it because it's one thing you could just go out and slaughter. 247 00:30:35,270 --> 00:30:44,450 It is a political process that and that's the thing that you learn that creates the most dangerous, 248 00:30:44,810 --> 00:30:54,300 volatile, impossible overlap in the world between religion and politics. 249 00:30:56,550 --> 00:31:00,980 And it's true on the Israeli side, and it's true for the Palestinians. 250 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:14,480 From the river to the sea. We have our right wing messianic groups who say from the river to the sea, the masses from the river to the sea. 251 00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:18,320 Those two parties we love to each other. 252 00:31:20,370 --> 00:31:26,159 They will see it as God's command and they will fight to make sure that they 253 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,090 believe that afterwards they go to heaven and we will live in [INAUDIBLE]. 254 00:31:32,150 --> 00:31:38,790 So if the conflict. Is boiled down to a religious conflict. 255 00:31:40,050 --> 00:31:46,290 Nothing that happens in more and more people on both sides of becoming moral or religious. 256 00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:49,890 This has nothing to do with culture. So the whole world is becoming more and more just. 257 00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:56,490 But in our case, it is extremely, extremely dangerous. 258 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:06,480 And only I believe only and I am sorry if I offend anyone, but I think only people who are believers can slaughter people with a smile. 259 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,190 Because they believe they fulfilled parts it. 260 00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:23,420 And again, it's crucial for both sides. People, normal people will take responsibility for their actions with an external justification and. 261 00:32:25,810 --> 00:32:30,850 Some sort of eternal justification for us to do not do those things. 262 00:32:30,850 --> 00:32:34,090 They do don't bear children in the lives of people they don't. 263 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,730 Abused boys. So we must move. 264 00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:50,280 From a religious conflict to a political corruption no less than full conflict and also great pleasure. 265 00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:57,610 But they are manageable. And the political conflict, I guess you send in by both sides being unhappy about it. 266 00:32:57,610 --> 00:33:03,469 But at least. Ready to live with the consequences of what they do. 267 00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:09,140 First of all, they start by taking responsibility for what they do and for what they give up. 268 00:33:10,250 --> 00:33:24,620 And I'm certain that the only way we can move forward is by moving from the religious to the secular political conflict resolution sphere, 269 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:32,600 where people are ready to compromise and believe that they have genuine political beliefs, 270 00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:36,920 which is probably one of the most important tools of political movement. 271 00:33:37,580 --> 00:33:40,670 They think they have the power of the people to compromise. 272 00:33:41,270 --> 00:33:48,850 Again, if it's God, it's not for me to compromise. Humans can compromise and bear the cost of compromising or not compromising. 273 00:33:54,290 --> 00:34:10,370 So given the fact that we need a more holistic solution, global solution, political solution to the region, um, I think that now what we're trying, 274 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:27,020 I think that we see it coming from all sorts of directions are suggestions for building some sort of a process to allow Israel gain security, 275 00:34:27,590 --> 00:34:35,389 stop the war, realistically suggest probably in the other order, release the hostages in security, 276 00:34:35,390 --> 00:34:44,510 stop the war, and then start building the leadership in the territories, 277 00:34:44,510 --> 00:34:54,600 both in Gaza and the West Bank, who are able to carry the burden of negotiations and compromise and a solution. 278 00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:56,510 This isn't going to happen immediately. 279 00:34:58,130 --> 00:35:05,000 Israel has destroyed the Palestinian leadership for many years and unfortunately supported the Hamas because it was 280 00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:13,190 in line with this desire not to give the solution and to get occupied in the West Bank and particularly in Gaza. 281 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:21,800 So he's supported the Hamas for many years. It's now out in the open and and we certainly need to replace people. 282 00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:33,620 So both initiatives. And not only because of his political opinions, but because of his reliance on the messianic view of Zionism, 283 00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:38,900 which is really the mirror image of the messianic view of Islamism. 284 00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:53,510 So what we need now is to create two leaderships that are able to communicate under the umbrella of some larger organisation. 285 00:35:54,170 --> 00:36:08,680 Most suggest, and I'll speak about. In a period that will bring together a coalition of forces that will govern the nation for a while. 286 00:36:10,090 --> 00:36:15,430 I don't want to sit now alone with the coalition forces, and I don't know what's up for a while. 287 00:36:15,730 --> 00:36:21,910 A lot of people say the coalition should be built as a combination of European, 288 00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:29,890 American and our Palestinian forces, whether the Palestinians would be ready to partake in it. 289 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:39,310 Salam Fayyad, one of the Palestinians I highly regarded as a very important and thoughtful person, 290 00:36:39,310 --> 00:36:46,190 said I would not be placed as the governor of Palestine or Gaza. 291 00:36:46,210 --> 00:36:49,750 I have to win this, and I can understand his view. 292 00:36:49,780 --> 00:36:59,770 He wants to be elected. But before we have elections in Palestine and in the West Bank and Gaza, we need to sort out some sort of a process. 293 00:37:00,370 --> 00:37:07,329 You can see now open election in either Gaza or the West Bank. 294 00:37:07,330 --> 00:37:14,350 And remember, the Palestinian Authority has been postponing elections now for ten years. 295 00:37:15,010 --> 00:37:20,710 I'm not sure. But they don't want to do elections. So because they know what will happen in elections. 296 00:37:21,340 --> 00:37:24,360 Somebody told me I did. You said you did. 297 00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:30,400 Then the people in Gaza wanted to see the five. And the people in the West Bank wants to see the Hamas. 298 00:37:30,430 --> 00:37:38,680 This is what people told me in the West Bank last spring. So each side is very cautious, long to have an election right now. 299 00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:44,710 So we need a process and we need an interim period. So let me just. 300 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:56,600 Say two more things and it's my fault. Two more things about the Israeli side, and I'll be happy to answer questions rather than answers. 301 00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:59,900 So that's the first time I read for office. 302 00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:11,480 It seems like in Israel there are two very important understanding that are sinking in. 303 00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:21,590 First, if we're not going to win this war. And you can't imagine how difficult it is because the first few days everyone to say and hear that 304 00:38:21,590 --> 00:38:27,079 Hamas gave them all the room and everybody in Israel was sure that this is what's going to happen. 305 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,820 Like we're the strongest army in the Middle East. We've got our own stories. 306 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,980 Unfortunately. This is not going to. 307 00:38:39,940 --> 00:38:45,760 And it's also quite clear that you can't win over the families and bring all the hostages back to life. 308 00:38:48,340 --> 00:38:52,150 So people understand this war is not going to end rapidly. 309 00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:58,399 It's amazing how people I mean, 310 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:05,870 this has been very experienced in wars and people always in the beginning have a sense that they know how it's going to end. 311 00:39:06,740 --> 00:39:14,660 And they always hope for the worst, mainly except maybe for the Six Day War, 312 00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:19,190 which actually in the long run was a disaster, but in the short term was a great victory. 313 00:39:21,890 --> 00:39:25,129 So people have a sense of urgency and it's not going to end quickly. 314 00:39:25,130 --> 00:39:28,310 The Hamas is going to be eradicated. 315 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:40,940 There's no victory, sort of a victory picture that we will wave and saying we won, we will there will be a misery and ongoing conflict. 316 00:39:41,090 --> 00:39:44,200 Soldiers are going to die today. Four soldiers died. 317 00:39:44,210 --> 00:39:48,530 That just opened my phone for a moment before entering a room for soldiers like today. 318 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,510 And people will get fed up with it as it happened in Vietnam and it has been eradicated, that is. 319 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:03,500 And in Israel, it's more influential than anywhere else because we've known these soldiers. 320 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:07,550 They are children, their friends, children, small society. 321 00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:14,660 So people understand we need something. It's not a military solution. 322 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,860 It's not just taking over the Gaza Strip, this small place. 323 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,329 We can do it. It's a long process. It's painful process. 324 00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:35,840 And it will have to end with some sort of an agreement. The second thing that people understand is that this government is not qualified to lead us. 325 00:40:35,870 --> 00:40:46,760 I have a public opinion poll from today showing that if the elections were held today, then many guns. 326 00:40:47,180 --> 00:40:53,120 It was only eventually that it would happen. And it was very quiet about everything. 327 00:40:55,460 --> 00:40:59,180 Yes, 37 seats. It's amazing, right? 328 00:40:59,410 --> 00:41:06,129 It's going to be by far the largest party and what the social policies are. 329 00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:11,590 I know anything about them except. What we know. 330 00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:22,640 The Likud is down to 16 seats. Lapid is down to 14 seats and all the rest of the parties are small. 331 00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:31,370 So actually now, if there was election today, you would create the conference government without all the fanatics on your right and without the. 332 00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:38,350 Which means that the people on the record would not want an election right now. 333 00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:40,060 They know how to read the polls and so on. 334 00:41:41,290 --> 00:41:51,189 And the big questions we as Israelis face every time my friends say all the Gazans are to be responsible because they didn't get rid of the Hamas, 335 00:41:51,190 --> 00:42:01,330 I said, I'll say after we get rid of it, it's going to be hard because in the parliament has a majority, quite a solid majority. 336 00:42:03,950 --> 00:42:11,480 But unfortunately, I think we are going into an eruption of violence in the streets that will lead. 337 00:42:13,940 --> 00:42:23,839 Two elections, and I don't know how long it will take. I assume with fanfare being the minister of Internal Interiors, 338 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:31,070 internal Security people are going to die in the streets for the first time ever in Israel. 339 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:36,470 But once the. More and more. 340 00:42:38,110 --> 00:42:46,240 Hostages will come back in coffins. There will be a huge eruption of violence and. 341 00:42:48,430 --> 00:42:54,460 I don't know how long it will take, but it will be, I think, a change of government at some point. 342 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,550 I don't think that the Palestinians in Gaza have enough power to get rid of the Hamas. 343 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,340 They need something that will happen from the outside. 344 00:43:04,330 --> 00:43:07,299 To help them rebuild their leadership? I don't know. 345 00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:18,310 I've written about about the internal politics of FSA, how they can replace the Hamas with a political force that is able to negotiate with Israeli. 346 00:43:19,860 --> 00:43:23,700 The second thing that is happening is that people. 347 00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:32,410 So I adjusted to the thought that if there would be a solution. 348 00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:39,670 If we include Palestinian state. Yesterday, Eugene asked me why I'm not running again. 349 00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:44,920 I said because my views are supported by less than 1% of the population. 350 00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:49,510 So it was a great prospect, however. 351 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:55,930 And today there was a public opinion form that was very interesting that we asked. 352 00:43:56,140 --> 00:44:02,380 The public opinion poll I relied on was about how many Canadians are now supporting a two state solution because less than 1%. 353 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:09,340 It used to be around 40. It was like going down dramatically. 354 00:44:09,370 --> 00:44:15,460 But the poll today asked the question, and that, I think, made me realise, he said, 355 00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:25,110 I'm in favour of a comprehensive agreement that includes a the return of all the hostages. 356 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:35,650 As I said, number one priority for everyone would be the creation of a demilitarised Palestinian state and normalisation with Saudi. 357 00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:41,660 Can you guess how many people support that? No, no. 358 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:53,799 Moving from 1% to 51% and do not know 20% what it means. 359 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,960 Something very significant and every to two things. 360 00:44:59,170 --> 00:45:04,600 First of all, the larger the offer, the more attractive it is. 361 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:12,280 If you just say one thing, I would guess out of this, 51%, a lot of people. 362 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,730 So just get back to things. The hostages. So they said yes. 363 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:25,060 But then in Saudi, look, people always think they know what how people would behave to a political process, you know. 364 00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:32,889 But Winston, I think, is and most Israelis were against the peace solution with Egypt once again, 365 00:45:32,890 --> 00:45:38,710 all fell in love with them and always with Egypt and supported the peace agreement, 366 00:45:39,250 --> 00:45:44,080 the Abraham agreements, when they were just put on the table, everybody was against them. 367 00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:48,850 So, you know, all these people in the Gulf, we don't want to, you know, 368 00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:59,419 who otherwise should be even start working with her to me and say that everybody was going to Dubai and wearing the Javier's and playing that, 369 00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:03,660 as you know. And the people from Dubai were like a daughter. 370 00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:09,100 He said he would talk to the people who were planning to speak for Europe. You see, are to be Javier in these. 371 00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:17,510 Right. Like the people clap because there are some people don't ask people what they think would happen, give them an offer that they consciences. 372 00:46:18,370 --> 00:46:23,170 And I think that's what we have to ask now from the international community. 373 00:46:23,950 --> 00:46:31,330 Feel and offer people some of resistance would be Israel is less of a lead. 374 00:46:31,870 --> 00:46:35,200 There's a lesson the need in Israel for an economic incentive. 375 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:45,470 Egypt needs money. Jordan needs when the Palestinians in fact, if there would be an offer that is good enough for all sides important, 376 00:46:45,490 --> 00:46:51,130 it's very important that every side will feel that they got something from the deal. 377 00:46:52,210 --> 00:47:01,800 There is a good chance people will support and then if they want support beforehand, the moment they see an American president lands in Israel, 378 00:47:01,810 --> 00:47:09,310 we to I don't know, presidents from Europe and five Arab leaders, and within 3 hours people change their mind. 379 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:16,560 So there will be different ideas. They will understand and they will do a lot of damage and would be fantastic. 380 00:47:16,570 --> 00:47:30,010 So that of them. But the majority of people, I think this poll shows and the other polls that, you know, show will say yes to a reasonable solution. 381 00:47:31,350 --> 00:47:35,820 So this is actually up to you guys. We cannot produce it from within. 382 00:47:37,290 --> 00:47:41,850 And suddenly I'm certain the Palestinian Authority is at fault with it. 383 00:47:43,530 --> 00:47:57,090 Doesn't need to be the way the world takes responsibility over the really miserable Middle East and put forward some serious solutions, 384 00:47:57,930 --> 00:48:06,870 serious resources. And, you know, as I always knew, an offer you can't resist. 385 00:48:07,830 --> 00:48:13,770 And once you put it on the table, I think we in Israel, the peace forces in Israel, 386 00:48:13,830 --> 00:48:21,480 will be revive the peace forces in Palestine will be revived, the region will be revived and people will start working. 387 00:48:22,860 --> 00:48:29,929 Now we're working, but. You know, we're pretty keen for the government to look. 388 00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:37,430 We have to listen to us. We need the help in order to make it happen. 389 00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:45,800 Usually people you know, when I started my days in peace movement, people used to say, Don't go for them and all your problems will solve it. 390 00:48:46,610 --> 00:48:51,680 I say to myself, and a lot of people, go through your problems and ask for help. 391 00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:58,190 You know, as all your psychologists tell you, when you're in deep distress, ask for help. 392 00:48:58,910 --> 00:49:01,370 Maybe something good will happen. Thank you.