1 00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:03,810 Welcome to the Middle East Centre lecture series. 2 00:00:04,260 --> 00:00:08,310 So it is called No Political Options following the Gaza Conflict. 3 00:00:08,820 --> 00:00:13,310 And for those who don't know me, my name is Ismail. 4 00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:19,050 I am a professor of contemporary Islamic Studies at the Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, 5 00:00:19,350 --> 00:00:23,010 and I'm also based at the centre by the Middle East Centre. 6 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:32,760 And last week we invited Professor you to come here to discuss Israeli public opinion and political options after seven over seven. 7 00:00:33,210 --> 00:00:39,180 And this week we are very delighted to have Professor Hug, of course, with us today. 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:46,860 And she is a professor of political theory in the Department of Politics and International Studies. 9 00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:57,510 She currently works on a project on torture and bureaucracy in Israel Palestine in collaboration with the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel. 10 00:00:58,050 --> 00:01:08,310 Her recent book, The Colonising Self Home and Homelessness in Israel Palestine, was published by Duke University Press in 2020. 11 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:15,120 This book looks at the construction of political belonging and territorial attachments in settler colonies. 12 00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:30,600 And it's amazing because the colonising self won three awards, Rockin Eve through the Year Ferguson Award and the Spitz Prize in Democratic theory. 13 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:36,360 It also received honourable mentions at the May 20 Summit Mrs. Polk Award, 14 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:42,520 the Sussex International Prize, and the IPC International Political Sociology Section. 15 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:46,670 ICE is a book award. We're so lucky. 16 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:50,819 She has many other publications, 17 00:01:50,820 --> 00:02:00,510 including another book published by Duke University Press titled Movement and the Ordering of Freedom, that was published in 2004. 18 00:02:01,290 --> 00:02:09,060 So before joining Suez, she held positions and fellowships at the Minerva Humanities Centre, Tel-Aviv University, 19 00:02:09,420 --> 00:02:13,080 the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University, 20 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:21,530 Columbia University's Society of Fellows and also Position, University of California. 21 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:28,470 But where I did my Ph.D. Oh, you did. When I was, there was a position that I took. 22 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:35,730 So I'm someone who has travelled extensively and has been to so, you know, been part of many institutions. 23 00:02:36,180 --> 00:02:42,180 So we are so very fortunate to have had her with us today and we'll be tackling an important topic. 24 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:49,020 The title of a talk is The Settler Movement Political Impasses and Beyond. 25 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,220 Without further delay, I will invite Professor Gupta. 26 00:03:01,970 --> 00:03:07,310 Thank you. It was the best introduction I ever received in my life. 27 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:15,660 Thank you. And thank you for inviting me here and giving you this opportunity, especially for asking me to talk about this. 28 00:03:18,260 --> 00:03:22,630 So now we need to figure this out, you know? 29 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:29,330 So I should have practised before. Do I get these areas up and down? 30 00:03:30,230 --> 00:03:35,330 Okay, now we're getting almost all of those. 31 00:03:38,370 --> 00:03:43,570 Oh, you know, some people think. Okay. 32 00:03:44,650 --> 00:03:50,080 So let's talk about three moments in the settlement movements today. 33 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Very quickly, we can think about them geographically. 34 00:03:53,740 --> 00:04:04,510 We can think about them temporally. The first would cover three repeat of the period of Oslo, 1993 until the eve of October 7th. 35 00:04:04,990 --> 00:04:11,660 It would focus on the West Bank. Even though it is a problematic choice because a lot of what is going on in the West Bank, 36 00:04:11,660 --> 00:04:22,910 the peace since 2005 has to do with a disengagement from Gaza that has shaped a lot of the drives of what's going on in the zone in the West. 37 00:04:24,010 --> 00:04:29,290 In the second part of my talk, I will talk about the war currently taking place over Gaza. 38 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:36,010 I would maybe say a few things about how this war has shaped settler violence in the West Bank and then move to Gaza. 39 00:04:36,310 --> 00:04:46,210 And then I will talk a bit about what's going on in Israel itself, the debates there, and maybe thinking further about the future. 40 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,170 But before I start, I want to say two things. 41 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:54,960 First, I'm going to talk about the settlement movement, but I'm not going to talk about all sectors. 42 00:04:55,300 --> 00:05:01,930 There are settlers who object the type of ideologies and political projects that are going I'm going to outline today. 43 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,020 I'm also not going to talk just about settlers. 44 00:05:05,380 --> 00:05:14,440 There are growing segments, alarmingly growing segments in the Israeli public that embrace this ideology and concrete political plans. 45 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:24,400 So not just settlers and all settlers. And the second point has to do with the relation between this group and this state. 46 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,739 So I will organise my talk among three figures. 47 00:05:29,740 --> 00:05:34,420 If you would like to give faces to the more general comments I'm about to give. 48 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:41,320 The first is, is someone who is in a complete agonistic relations to the state. 49 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:45,189 His entire rationale of operation is anti-state. 50 00:05:45,190 --> 00:05:52,090 These people starts in prison for a few times. The second is a minister in the new Netanyahu government. 51 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,830 Yet someone who is a marginal figure. Some would say she's a bit crazy. 52 00:05:57,820 --> 00:06:03,310 And then the last one is kind of a rising superstar general in the Israeli military. 53 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,370 So presumably we're moving from that margin to the centre. 54 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:14,080 But we must remember two things. First, that this movement to the centre has to do also with the movement of the centre to the right. 55 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:20,200 So so Israel is moving further and further to the right. What allows this movement of these figures to the centre. 56 00:06:20,890 --> 00:06:26,230 And second, and this is something I'm going to return to several times in my talk. 57 00:06:27,250 --> 00:06:30,160 And this is where the point of the beyond may come from, 58 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:37,180 is that the relation of the state to all of these figures is much more ambivalent that watch me see. 59 00:06:37,540 --> 00:06:42,190 So even the anti-Zionist figure gets a lot of support from the state, 60 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:48,990 and even the rising superstar general may not serve the interests of the state to the extent that there are. 61 00:06:50,830 --> 00:07:00,399 Okay. So already in the 1980s, the London police came out with a irreversibility thesis. 62 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:06,430 The idea that the settlement movement makes any two state solution completely impossible. 63 00:07:07,330 --> 00:07:19,210 Now, when he talks, he published this for the first time, I think in 1983, there were roughly 23,000 settlers in the West. 64 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:33,220 Now we're talking about roughly 450,000 settlers in the West Bank, an additional about 230,000 settlers in East Jerusalem. 65 00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:38,740 And I separate those because the legal status is different. Israel has annexed East Jerusalem. 66 00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:49,570 But the issue at stake is not just the numbers, which, as you can see, make that university irreversibility thesis even more valid today. 67 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:55,209 The issue is also land. And in the first type in the first part of my talk, 68 00:07:55,210 --> 00:08:04,660 I want to talk about the project of land grant of what is often referred to as the new settlement movement or the Hilltop Youth movement. 69 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:08,190 And I wanted to do this by talking about this guy. 70 00:08:08,230 --> 00:08:12,640 His name is actually one of the is the founder of this place. 71 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,010 You've all collapsed. This is the largest organic farm in Israel. 72 00:08:19,030 --> 00:08:29,710 It is situated here. So as you can see, it's kind of south east to Nablus and it creates some people to land. 73 00:08:29,740 --> 00:08:33,420 I have this exciting point here, Right. 74 00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:42,060 And you can see how it creates. We'll talk about this movement later, how it basically bisects the Palestinian areas and separates them. 75 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:51,070 He falls on his feet. By far the largest producer of anything in history. 76 00:08:51,580 --> 00:08:56,980 Now we can talk a lot about organic agriculture and its relations with the occupation and monetisation. 77 00:08:57,310 --> 00:09:03,300 I want to talk about space. So free range eggs require more space, right? 78 00:09:03,310 --> 00:09:12,420 The chickens need to be in larger coops and they need to have extra space to roam freely outside so that they will qualify as equivalent paycheques. 79 00:09:12,430 --> 00:09:15,130 And if you look at this map, 80 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:26,500 you can see how Run has used the chicken coops he built in order to basically spread out over more and more territory and take more and more land. 81 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:33,160 Now, when I conducted my research on this particular farm, it was roughly 2018. 82 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,500 At that point, Farm began building another chicken coop over there. 83 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:44,260 This is kind of a twisted ish area. It's called the Three Seasons Lookout. 84 00:09:44,770 --> 00:09:50,799 And the fact that he was building a chicken coop, there kind of was a big outrage among other centres. 85 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:58,650 And when I pulled out this new satellite image for today's talk, I realised there are no more choices for that coop over there. 86 00:09:58,660 --> 00:10:05,890 So the other centres, one that he built two new chicken coops over here that were not there in 2002. 87 00:10:06,370 --> 00:10:12,339 Now, if you look at the topography of this, you can see and maybe it's actually clear from the pictures themselves. 88 00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:18,160 So this is the one that this three sea lookout that was in the process of construction in 2018. 89 00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:24,910 You can see how one basically positions the chicken coops on the hilltops in a way that allows 90 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:31,780 them to create look out into the Palestinian villages that are situated beneath these areas. 91 00:10:34,710 --> 00:10:44,550 Now what started as a tent and then a few mobile home became a nucleus farm. 92 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:50,790 So this is the area of the nucleus farm that spreads over 220 acres, 93 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:59,470 and the green areas are about 100 more acres of land that one cultivates outside of the nucleus for. 94 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:10,440 No excuse from this now estimates that rather than rather than the constructions of new houses or new settlements, 95 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,350 the fastest growing land problem is in the West Bank today is agriculture. 96 00:11:16,950 --> 00:11:20,000 This is how settlers take over more and more lands. 97 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:28,530 Now, let me give you a bit of a history. One move to Itamar, which is the settlement over here. 98 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:34,840 In 1993, in response, he said to the Oslo Accords. 99 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:37,250 So this was an act of protest moving to a city. 100 00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:47,750 Two years later, 1995, in response again to the second Oslo Accords and specifically to Rabin's decision to put a freeze on new construction, 101 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,230 new settlements, one moves to the outside of the fence. 102 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:58,920 So he built the first unauthorised construction outside the official fence. 103 00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:10,370 This was a chicken coop. He then brings one mobile home and another mobile home and thus basically was established the first outpost in the West Bank. 104 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,319 Over the next few years, one is moving basically from one hill to another. 105 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,110 So from here to here to here. In each of them. 106 00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:27,020 They were not there before. He built all of them. He would move out of them whenever there would be enough people to separate them. 107 00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:30,470 Usually that would be walkers or its family members. 108 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,530 He has like 15 or 17 or whatever, infinite number of children. 109 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:40,850 And then in 1997, he started being able to. 110 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:54,140 Today with more than 200 outposts that have joined the 146 regularised settlements in the West Bank. 111 00:12:54,680 --> 00:13:03,020 We can say that if Too Land was the forerunner of one of the most significant political movements in Israel in the last several decades. 112 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:08,900 And and suddenly, I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the distinction between settlement outposts. 113 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:17,120 Do I need to say something about this? Okay. So basically, all settlements are illegal according to international law. 114 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:26,630 However, Israel does recognise the legality of some settlements as long as they follow three basic conditions. 115 00:13:27,020 --> 00:13:33,500 So first, they need to be built on state land, that is land that has been officially taken from Palestinians by the state. 116 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:41,210 Second, they need to be constructed according to approved, approved municipal plan, like any construction. 117 00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:50,590 Other places unfamiliar with, and they need to be constructed within the municipal area of wherever their homes are. 118 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:59,950 Outposts are illegal, according to Israel itself, because they violate at least one of these conditions and usually at least two of them. 119 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,640 So almost all of them are built on privately owned Palestinian land. 120 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:08,170 Actually, this is the rationale to take land that the state is unwilling to take in a way. 121 00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:15,490 And all of them, and this is what defines them, are built without any central planning. 122 00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:22,229 Right. So someone brings a mobile phone. Now, this has created a history, 123 00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:34,860 a weird history of illegality in which the state presumably talks about evicting these spaces, but actually very rarely do so. 124 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:42,749 And I will say something about this in a second, but before that, I want to say that this distinction between settlement outposts, 125 00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:49,020 which is really important, is also completely fictitious because most settlements are illegal. 126 00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:53,969 According to these three criterias, most of them are at least partly built on private, you understand? 127 00:14:53,970 --> 00:15:03,090 And so to mark the settlement we started with is entirely that according to is when most of them started as outposts. 128 00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:06,270 In a way, they started without any central planning and then some. 129 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:15,629 At some point we'll bring you to that state. But this distinction that that doesn't exist is nevertheless important because it allows us to 130 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:22,140 explain something about the relations between the state and this movement and the outposts. 131 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,670 So I said before that the settlements are not a unified entity. 132 00:15:26,670 --> 00:15:32,130 Neither is distinct, but there is no such thing as this state, as a coherent state. 133 00:15:33,630 --> 00:15:39,150 Decisions are made in various locations, some local, some central. 134 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,200 We have attorney generals, we have commanders on the ground. 135 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,930 We have the civil administration. In the case of the West Bank, we have the prime minister, the finance minister, 136 00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:54,209 we have the housing or transportation ministers that sometimes enforce with more or 137 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:58,290 less enthusiasm the decisions of the Prime Minister and the minister of security. 138 00:15:58,290 --> 00:16:09,600 And sometimes they have their own enterprises. We have a Supreme Court justice, local council heads or Bible parts and many, many, many others. 139 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:16,260 And all of these often make different decisions and implement different policies in 140 00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:20,760 regard to the outposts and actually also in regard to the settlements in this state. 141 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:27,360 We should note also, oh, these are some of the unified entity in regard to its own interests. 142 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,520 But the state is composed of groups, 143 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:38,250 and different groups may have different interests in what may be a disaster for some may be a great outcome for someone else. 144 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:42,150 And this is where we want to end with at the end. For now, 145 00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:52,500 what is important for me to emphasise is that we have state actors and non-state actors that nevertheless operates in collaboration with the state, 146 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:57,300 or they serve the interests of the state to the extent that it has won, 147 00:16:57,660 --> 00:17:10,020 and that over the years, even though these pull in different directions, we see a more or less of a consolidation into one one place, 148 00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:14,070 there is a push to a certain direction, we can call it for now expansion. 149 00:17:14,820 --> 00:17:18,360 Later we will see that there is more to this. And in this regard, 150 00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:27,839 we should also note that over the years we have a change both in the rhetoric and in concrete legal apparatuses in relation to these outposts. 151 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:37,110 So if at the beginning, right after Oslo, the rhetoric and the legal processes were that of illegality and eviction in a way that 152 00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:43,680 allowed the current government to walk the reality of expansion with a discourse of eviction, 153 00:17:44,130 --> 00:17:49,500 allowing the state to continue this expansionist project, but not in the state's name. 154 00:17:50,340 --> 00:17:58,409 What we seen, of course, is that starts roughly in 2012 with the live report and kind of culminates in 2007. 155 00:17:58,410 --> 00:18:11,370 There is a shift towards a rhetoric of you love this station and legalisation and a further integration of this project into the Israeli legal system. 156 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:19,200 So basically what I'm saying is that even if we cannot talk about this state, when we talk about the outposts, 157 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:26,150 we also are not talking about a group of vigilantes, why there are more ambivalent relations there. 158 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:33,690 And with this, I want to return to violence. So I conducted my research on the forum I set around 2008. 159 00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:37,889 At that time, why wasn't Notorious figure in the West Bank? 160 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:41,960 He was known to be one of the most violent people around. 161 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:52,170 Testimonies are too many to count. He fought to fight is situated right above the Palestinian village where only. 162 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:02,830 Here in Union and Union is actually part of a village that is here, and there's no chapter here which continues. 163 00:19:02,830 --> 00:19:04,950 So, you know, has two parts, you know, where, you know, 164 00:19:05,310 --> 00:19:13,990 you post the parts of the village suffered a lot from gun violence, but then, you know, much more violent. 165 00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:26,320 These fellow settlers would would kind of walk and strolled the streets of and generally alone with dogs like big dogs to our walks destroy property. 166 00:19:27,010 --> 00:19:36,210 Yanan has been disconnected from the electricity grid because run destroyed a generator that was installed by the u.n. 167 00:19:37,170 --> 00:19:42,560 He also destroyed a water pump installed by the U.N. and the rationale, 168 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:49,110 as he conveyed it to the villagers was that they did not ask for his permission to install it. 169 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:58,170 There was also a lot of physical violence clubbing people with with m-16 rifles until their legs shorter. 170 00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:03,090 Just fine. Broken shooting, live ammunition of people. At least one man died. 171 00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:11,580 So basically violence. Fellow men were driving and they they shot the guy who was 24 at the time. 172 00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:18,720 Shot him in the leg. He kind of run away and then they shot him in the back as he escaped. 173 00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:21,480 And then he fell to the ground and bled to death. 174 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:32,970 At that time when they did that and when they did one of the other things, they were the war Israeli soldiers nearby. 175 00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:40,830 And it is important to say that because it shows that this is not a group of completely outlawed people. 176 00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:46,400 This is part of a wider project status project in a way. 177 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:57,120 One after the other. The families of Albanians left the village, which was there from 1596, has been emptied. 178 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:06,540 On 2002, the last six families left to the Palestinian village Akobo, which is nearby in lower. 179 00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:16,980 You know, there are still some Palestinians today. They basically told me that what they do is, is they stay away and make sure they do not know what. 180 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:23,660 Today, however, nearly five years later, once all news. 181 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:30,330 Partly because, like the occupation itself, he grew older and more normalised. 182 00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:36,940 So today you can go to do more to learn and have like enjoyed tasting menu with like great cheese and yoghurts and whatever. 183 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:49,419 But also since settler violence became so much more widespread, so much more out in the open, so much more severe, 184 00:21:49,420 --> 00:21:59,290 so much more integrated into the governments project, that one is no longer the an ordinary figure who used to be. 185 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:10,630 I want to fast forward to a year ago, roughly a year ago in December two, 2022, Netanyahu established his government, 186 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:21,960 which is the most right wing government in the history of Israel, including his one party, two parties which were outlawed before racism. 187 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:35,220 With Itamar Ben-gvir, who is declared supporter of Kahana as the Minister of Internal Security, and Marcellas Smotrich, 188 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:41,349 who was at least as racist as not just the Minister of Finance, 189 00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:49,749 but also a special minister in the Minister in the Ministry of Security who is in charge of the civil administration. 190 00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:55,210 So basically, everything that has to do with settlements and with these two people in power and many others. 191 00:23:00,620 --> 00:23:08,630 Basically Israel's Israeli security forces, which have always worked in close collaboration with the settlers, 192 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:12,890 have been completely integrated into the settlement movement. 193 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,940 Again, we can discuss the details of this integration later, 194 00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:23,929 but this includes the recruitment of of settlers who would not be recruited to the army before because of 195 00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:30,440 their history of violence into special military support units whose role is to protect the settlements, 196 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:38,810 a war that they perceive as approving to go into proximate villages and engage in acts of violence. 197 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:46,530 So for this official integration by the settler settlers, violence into the Israeli army, to the army, 198 00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:55,430 a vast army of settlers to explicit instructions to not enforce the evictions of outposts 199 00:23:55,790 --> 00:24:01,190 and to more or less explicit instructions to not operate against settlers settlers by then, 200 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,370 something that rarely happens before anyway. Right. 201 00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:13,100 And I did not say anything about the government's support of the continuous continuous violations of destroying Al-Aqsa. 202 00:24:14,540 --> 00:24:28,930 But I want to move forward. So in February 2023, when hundreds of settlers rioting in the Palestinian village Honiara, which is also next to not new, 203 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:35,650 so very close to before I showed you before burning house on the houses, on the people in them, 204 00:24:35,950 --> 00:24:43,120 burning and breaking cars, destroying shops and property, shooting live ammunition. 205 00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:47,440 The army was there. He was the army was there and did nothing. 206 00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:55,720 And if he did something, it was to protect the settlers. The following day, when settlers were still strolling around the streets of koalas, 207 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:01,390 making sure that no Palestinians feel free enough and safe enough to go outside of their homes. 208 00:25:01,390 --> 00:25:07,180 The army was still there and still did nothing other than protecting the settlers. 209 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:26,260 We should bear in mind that smug Leech 44 has a plan, an explicit plan for a transfer of most Palestinians from the West one. 210 00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:35,220 But we should also bear in mind that this is not a new thing and it's not a function just of this current government. 211 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:49,860 Like from 2005, almost 94% cases of sexual violence ended without any any charges being pressed and only 3% the war convictions of some sort. 212 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,989 So this is it has, you know, become worse and more since the new government. 213 00:25:54,990 --> 00:26:00,750 But it's not just the outcome of this new government. All of this brings us to the eve of October 7th. 214 00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:07,889 This constant stirring up this escalation of violence in the West Bank meant that 215 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:14,520 the Israeli army was quite occupied in the West Bank on the eve of October seven. 216 00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:22,480 26 battalions were deployed in the West Bank, which is 2 to 4 of the numbers are under contestation. 217 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:25,920 2 to 4 battalions were deployed on the Gaza border. 218 00:26:26,810 --> 00:26:33,320 On October six, the night of October six, from these 2 to 4 battalions in the Gaza border, 219 00:26:33,710 --> 00:26:42,590 120 special commando soldiers were deployed back to the West Bank from the Gaza border, 220 00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:48,649 because this, of course, was one of the parliament member from the from Smart. 221 00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:57,980 Which party decided he wants to build a suka in how to commemorate that You get Jewish holiday support. 222 00:26:58,790 --> 00:27:06,290 So on the morning of that Saturday of October seven, when Hamas militants were crossing the border to Israel. 223 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:13,900 So there were very few combat soldiers on. 224 00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:21,800 Yes, there were very few combat soldiers in the south, even in the southern border. 225 00:27:22,910 --> 00:27:28,480 Often after making sure there is no possibility of a territorial solution in the West Bank, 226 00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:34,930 the settler movement has thus created conditions of radical insecurity for the rest of Israel. 227 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,510 And once the war started, 228 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:45,759 they have pushed for it to take the form of a genocidal war that would prepare the infrastructure for renewed occupation in Gaza. 229 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,390 And I don't want to discuss the question of whether this is or is another form of genocide. 230 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:57,010 So you have an entire lecture about it next week. But what is important for me is that is that this is the plan of this movement. 231 00:27:57,220 --> 00:28:06,040 Whatever form the war takes, these the plan and the desire of this movement is that it will become. 232 00:28:07,450 --> 00:28:13,180 A form of genocide or transfer to kind of clear the way for more civilians. 233 00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:16,680 So let us move to the war itself. 234 00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:26,570 I don't have time to really talk about what happened in the West Bank since the war started, but this may give you a sense. 235 00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:36,120 So since October 7th, until this state opens up until early January, we have at least 11 new outposts that were built. 236 00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:40,140 We have at least 18 new illegal roads that have been paved. 237 00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:43,920 We can talk later about the importance of roads and what they do. 238 00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:51,090 And we have 1200 Palestinians accused, 1200 Palestinians who were deported or transferred. 239 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:58,050 These are the areas from which communities have been either completely or significantly transferred. 240 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:03,210 More than 400 cases of such violence were reported in a third of them. 241 00:29:03,690 --> 00:29:11,130 There was use of live ammunition. More than 340 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank. 242 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,460 84 of the minors, at least eight were killed by settlers. 243 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,510 At least 116 injured by soldiers. 244 00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:23,370 The numbers are not really certain because often you cannot know. 245 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,079 Also because often, as I said before, there is no difference. Right now. 246 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:34,860 What the centre is are big part of the army, either US, either officially or US support interpreting whatever that means. 247 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:41,419 But let's move to Gaza. So I'm okay. 248 00:29:41,420 --> 00:29:50,350 These are words we can talk about. On the 12th of February 2023, shortly after the unit, 249 00:29:50,350 --> 00:29:57,999 the New York government was sworn into office amid its to Minister of Settlements and National Missions, 250 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,520 which is an office that was created especially for her. 251 00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:07,820 I was interviewed to the chief. 252 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,180 By the way, also from someone who just party. 253 00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:19,780 She gave an interview to the religious channel on the seventh in Israel, and she sent there that guidelines also part of the town of Israel. 254 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:26,500 The disengagement was a human rights violation. A dark time, she said, in the history of the land. 255 00:30:27,130 --> 00:30:32,590 And that is gone. So we we will return to. This was not a single time. 256 00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:44,230 On March 21st, she was again interviewed by the same channel and said that the reoccupation of Gaza would be very painful would entail many victims. 257 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:49,600 But it will happen. She promised. Now, let me be absolutely clear. 258 00:30:49,620 --> 00:30:52,800 Stoke is a marginal figure in the government. 259 00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:58,400 Her ability to actually influence decision making is quite small. 260 00:30:58,410 --> 00:31:02,850 In fact, once the war started, Netanyahu was brought into the government, 261 00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:08,160 another party from the centre in order to create a new locus of decision making 262 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,080 that would basically push away the small reach for the smartly to benefit party. 263 00:31:13,410 --> 00:31:17,250 So they're not on the table making these decisions. 264 00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:28,560 But also when she said that in March 21st, she did not say in a vacuum more out of her own population. 265 00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:33,660 She said it in relation to a new legislation that was introduced by the Netanyahu government. 266 00:31:34,140 --> 00:31:37,200 So so basically 2005, there is the disengagement. 267 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,189 As part of the disengagement, five settlements are being evicted from the West. 268 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:46,190 But there is the legislation saying that it's not allowed. 269 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:55,469 It's illegal to be settling these particular areas. In March last year, the Netanyahu government reversed this legislation, 270 00:31:55,470 --> 00:32:06,270 basically allow the return to these five places and stop said that this is an awkward medium point that would eventually allow a return to Gaza. 271 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:09,960 Now, I don't think the settlers planned the war. 272 00:32:10,050 --> 00:32:14,970 I don't think, given all the conspiracy theory out there, I believe they have planned October seven. 273 00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:21,870 But what has been the largest disaster in the history of the Jewish people since the Holocaust? 274 00:32:22,590 --> 00:32:29,250 What is then become the largest disaster of the Palestinian people ever, including 1948? 275 00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:38,490 What has been an inconceivable disaster for so many has been taken by the religious right as an opportunity, 276 00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:47,670 maybe even an opportunity to be celebrated. Extra parliamentary movements are already organising to return to Gaza. 277 00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:51,840 Again, these are marginal, but they are becoming more and more central. 278 00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:58,769 Just yesterday there was a big conference with more than 1000 people, including ministers, 279 00:32:58,770 --> 00:33:09,600 including ministers from the Likud Party fights of not just the religious right parties talking about plans to return to Gaza. 280 00:33:11,650 --> 00:33:20,110 But above all, I guess if I even though I think this is still very much not part of the main decision making, 281 00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:31,200 we should bear in mind that this is an organised movement that has proven to be immensely effective in changing reality by creating facts. 282 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:40,000 The different. Now, even if this is a fantasy and the person who organised this said that this time that this was a joke, 283 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,780 I'm not sure we can still say this today, but it is of the kind of said this was a joke. 284 00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:56,500 It's meant to open the conversation. But even if this is a fantasy, fantasy still have important aspects on the political reality to fight the war, 285 00:33:56,590 --> 00:34:00,610 to change the limits of the imagination and of the magic word. 286 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:09,070 And the suffrage movement has been very successful in changing these limits in either opening them up or narrowing them down, 287 00:34:09,070 --> 00:34:16,180 depending on how we want to look at it. And that universally irreversibility this is is precisely an outcome of this. 288 00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:23,170 And I did not speak at all about the long lasting collaboration of the Israeli governments and specifically Netanyahu with Hamas. 289 00:34:23,530 --> 00:34:30,880 That was all done in order to prevent a viable Palestinian partner in the West Bank, in order to protect the settlements. 290 00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:34,720 But I want to move to the third and last part of my. 291 00:34:36,910 --> 00:34:45,459 So on October 7th, when Hamas militants were waging in the Israeli south and the military, the Israeli military, 292 00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:52,210 unprepared for the events, failed to protect and provide aid for people locked in their homes for hours, 293 00:34:52,210 --> 00:34:59,140 sometimes for days, advising generals in the Israeli military boxing on a ride that's Kibbutz daily, 294 00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:03,040 which is one of the few would seem to suffer the most on that day. 295 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:14,469 Now, if you like a ride to the kibbutz at 4 p.m., reminding you Hamas forces were there from before 7 a.m. and that point, 296 00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:22,000 the first tank, but no guns, no helicopters, just a few soldiers from the first tank also arrived at the kibbutz. 297 00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:26,290 Very long story, maybe slightly shorter. 298 00:35:26,890 --> 00:35:34,360 A complex hostage situation develops in which Hamas forces hold hostage 14 people in between. 299 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:40,150 There was some negotiations on CROSSFIRE and two hostages have been taken out. 300 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:46,240 And at some point, Iran says we need to finish the event and or does the time to shoot at the house, 301 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:54,280 even at the life of the hostages, the 12 hostages and all of Hamas people were killed. 302 00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:59,920 So one should note, leaves in a very small segment called CODA. 303 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,610 Let's talk about one of the middle of the middle of the what's going on. 304 00:36:05,610 --> 00:36:07,349 Now the horrible events in Berlin. 305 00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:15,059 And I should emphasise again, given all the misinformation that this was an agreement, this was an extraordinary event. 306 00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:23,610 This was not the logic of the day. This was one of the very few events in which hostages were sacrificed for the sake of the war. 307 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:30,060 But this event could be framed as a horrifying choice amidst an unprecedented event. 308 00:36:30,060 --> 00:36:38,730 And indeed, the number of times when we did the report on this event, he gave it the title of a gentleman's dilemma. 309 00:36:39,570 --> 00:36:43,410 And this framing undoubtedly has some true stories. 310 00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:52,440 But I think the more troubling truth is that for him, this is part of a much more coherent ideology. 311 00:36:52,590 --> 00:36:57,330 And for now, I would call this ideology preferring war over life. 312 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,899 In an interview to an Israeli reporter called to lament the young three weeks after the events in Berlin, 313 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:06,300 when the details were still not known to the public, 314 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:13,380 he explained what he saw was the failure or actually the series of failures that rose to the events of the day. 315 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,330 And I quote him. I also think he says this after he kind of. 316 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:29,980 Gives a few other reasons. I also think. That we had your failure of of the conception of the Israeli people, an illusion that failed us. 317 00:37:30,670 --> 00:37:37,930 We all wanted to feel that we are a high tech nation that can live the war of the past behind, end quote. 318 00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:45,090 Now, the lesson for him is not that one cannot be a high tech nation once while engaging in an 319 00:37:45,090 --> 00:37:50,440 occupation and while keeping to more than 2 million people under siege from the states border. 320 00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:59,770 The lesson for him, and I quote him again, that we must not tell our stories that are easier than they're easier for us to live with, 321 00:38:00,460 --> 00:38:02,830 that our enemies are not there to exterminate us. 322 00:38:03,250 --> 00:38:11,740 But under some conditions and some adjustments in slightly better living conditions such as these would not happen in quotes. 323 00:38:12,070 --> 00:38:19,000 And again, the point for you is not that the reality of occupation and siege is so magical that minor 324 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,490 adjustments in slightly better living conditions is is insufficient to address the situation. 325 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:34,900 The point is, and I quote, that I am fearful that if we return to a long ways and if we try to negotiate with the other side, 326 00:38:35,470 --> 00:38:42,070 we will enter a trap that would bind us and would not allow us to do what is necessary to go in. 327 00:38:42,250 --> 00:38:47,080 That is to go into Gaza before the ground invasion and to kill them. 328 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:57,400 He does not say to them is. When Diane asks him about the possibility of negotiation to get the hostages back, he refuses this option. 329 00:38:58,090 --> 00:39:03,760 When she asks him where he will be in a week's time, he says with a smile, They smile. 330 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,170 Precisely. I hope that you can sign in in a year? 331 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,440 She asks him, Maybe still deep inside. 332 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:20,640 He continued, smiling. Now, I caught this interview in length because I think it was precisely this ideology, 333 00:39:21,540 --> 00:39:30,660 this ideology that prefers killing them over any negotiation to save the hostages that had allowed the event in Berlin to take place. 334 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:40,950 It was not a necessary event. It was a function of a very, very coherent way of life or perception. 335 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,979 And I quote it because this ideology goes well beyond. 336 00:39:44,980 --> 00:39:55,420 Q on our very own that Saturday, October 7th, smartly announced that now is the time to be cruel, not to take the hostages into account. 337 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:05,430 And this is a very generous translation because the Hebrew formulation can be translated as it's we should not really care about the hostages. 338 00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:10,580 And so much has been quite consistent with this ever since. 339 00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:15,830 And in a way, this ideology has shaped the war from its beginning. 340 00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:23,360 It has led to the killing of more than 25 900 Palestinians in Gaza due to the complete carelessness, 341 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:31,220 to lives there, to the displacement of more than 1.7 million people, often several times again and again. 342 00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:35,390 It is what allow for the hunger to spread. 343 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:44,150 And it is further linked to the killing of at least seven Israeli hostages in at least three incidents directly by the military. 344 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,780 Probably many, many more hostages. 345 00:40:48,290 --> 00:40:57,260 And it is leading to the ongoing abandonment of these people, to their the divide between the politics of life and the politics of death, 346 00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:03,430 of military power and territorial expansion has never been last year for 347 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:09,550 creating a religious ideology that prefers the sanctity of the land of Israel, 348 00:41:09,570 --> 00:41:18,110 of Israel, And the Jewish people on this soil prefers the sanctity of those over the 349 00:41:18,110 --> 00:41:22,880 sanctity of actual life of actual people after individuals living in this land. 350 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:26,900 But more importantly, Kiran, is not a religious person. 351 00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:37,450 And so this ideology goes well beyond that. This politics clearly targets Palestinians and has been targeting Palestinians for decades now. 352 00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:46,690 But also, as I said, it fosters an indifference to the lives of the hostages, so to Jewish lives as well. 353 00:41:47,140 --> 00:41:51,220 And that's further targeted the liberal existence of friends. 354 00:41:51,880 --> 00:42:01,760 Indeed, this willingness of the government to sacrifice its own citizens, which has become painfully clear in the last four months, has not begun. 355 00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:07,870 October 7th, on the seven months, on the seven months before that, 356 00:42:07,930 --> 00:42:16,580 this government promoted a radical constitutional revolution which basically sought to achieve two purposes first, to keep Netanyahu out of prison. 357 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:22,420 I think a lot of what we need to understand about this war and politics revolve around the need for people have now risen. 358 00:42:23,020 --> 00:42:28,450 And second, to remove obstacles to the annexation of the West Front. 359 00:42:28,990 --> 00:42:37,720 So the settlement movement needs to be out of prison, basically join forces in this judicial revolution. 360 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:46,990 Already then it became clear or should have become clear that the settlements are not just the obstacle for any solution with the Palestinians. 361 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:54,670 They are peace to the very existence of the state of Israel, as we know, view it as such. 362 00:42:55,060 --> 00:42:59,290 Maybe it's my own fantasy, but from here emerges my hope. 363 00:43:00,460 --> 00:43:04,690 So when Rwanda released, it talked about the human rights abuses, as he said. 364 00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:10,510 But at stake is not just the number of settlers or the amount of land taken. 365 00:43:11,350 --> 00:43:15,610 It is and political will. And I quote him. 366 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:23,680 Theoretically, it is possible to dismantle, to dismantle the settlements and to take down walls. 367 00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:30,550 But do the stocks that are being established in about one of the time passing fortified the political power, 368 00:43:30,940 --> 00:43:38,260 supporting the continuation of the occupation or fortify the political powers objecting to it, end quote. 369 00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:43,210 The answer for him and for many of us for years has been obvious. 370 00:43:43,660 --> 00:43:47,920 The vast majority of Israelis do not have the political will to change these facts. 371 00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:57,310 But perhaps the alternative power is now beginning to understand that this is not only Palestinian lives that would become. 372 00:43:57,870 --> 00:44:09,820 What does it mean, right? He's not only Palestinian lives that would become impossible, disposable, unbearable, an existence, but also with theirs. 373 00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:14,660 At that point, the wheel made me feel stronger. 374 00:44:15,410 --> 00:44:19,010 And then and I guess this is the important bit for me. 375 00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:24,920 Maybe then the equation of us versus them would finally shift. 376 00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:44,210 Thank you. Well, that was wonderful. 377 00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:50,860 Thank you so much for your wonderful talk. And I'm only following what my colleagues often do. 378 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:58,809 They would abuse their position as the focus of questions, and I'll be doing the same. 379 00:44:58,810 --> 00:45:06,340 So but I will only be asking maybe one or two questions because I know we have so many questions and people just want to ask you, 380 00:45:06,510 --> 00:45:15,760 you know, the questions. So I'm just you know, I'm so happy that you ended your presentation, you know, and you were quite hopeful. 381 00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:19,300 And there's hope. And it's always great to have hope. 382 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:30,010 And I still would like to ask you about the question of whether or not it is possible to have a viable Palestinian state, 383 00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:36,430 because in the end, we're still talking about a two state solution. And it seems that people still want a two state solution. 384 00:45:36,430 --> 00:45:43,810 I think I was speaker last week. I mentioned that it would be great for Israelis and Palestinians to have a two state solution. 385 00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:53,560 I've read an article by Daniel Sidon, I think, as an Israeli attorney advising David Cameron, 386 00:45:53,950 --> 00:46:02,080 and apparently he argues in this article that it is possible to occupy, you know, the West Bank. 387 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:13,660 And in order for Palestine to have a viable state, you need to at least relocate 200,000 Israeli settlers. 388 00:46:14,350 --> 00:46:24,579 It sounds great. So if you can incrementally occupy, you can also incrementally the Occupy, according to him. 389 00:46:24,580 --> 00:46:32,290 And I thought that was really, you know, again, hopeful. But the question is, in terms of political will, we've seen what happened. 390 00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:40,900 Do you think Rabin or even Ariel Sharon when he tried to occupy Gaza and people are still cursing him, if I'm not mistaken. 391 00:46:41,410 --> 00:46:54,400 So do you think there is hope when it comes to persuading or perhaps imposing and relocating at least 200,000 Israeli settlers from the West Bank? 392 00:46:54,820 --> 00:47:00,850 So you said you're you're happier and then hopefully now you're asking me question that looks like me to go the other way. 393 00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:10,120 I don't feel like that. I'm so sorry. It's fine. It brings me to my more familiar place of not being hopeful. 394 00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:14,290 I used to say I don't mind, but I used to say I don't mind. 395 00:47:14,290 --> 00:47:17,290 One state solution, two state solution, whatever solution. 396 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,809 It's very clear that that the occupation needs to end and Right. 397 00:47:22,810 --> 00:47:30,520 And whatever comes out of it, a big Democratic state, two Democratic states, maybe one of the one, I don't care. 398 00:47:30,790 --> 00:47:32,530 But whatever is doable. 399 00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:43,500 I can say that up until October 7th, I thought it would be more doable to have a one state solution in some federative arrangement. 400 00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:51,390 And so this is where I was thinking we should push for. I no longer sure. 401 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,170 Now, this can mean that we can relinquish all hope. 402 00:47:58,370 --> 00:48:03,320 But I'll tell you where my bit of a hope nevertheless comes from. 403 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,680 What we also saw in October 7th is that Israel cannot exist without the US. 404 00:48:09,410 --> 00:48:13,730 If the U.S. was not there, Hezbollah would have joined this. 405 00:48:14,330 --> 00:48:21,440 Everything would have looked very different. Now it's up to the Americans to take advantage of this. 406 00:48:21,830 --> 00:48:26,120 Right. And basically say that's it. I think the only way is to be honest. 407 00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:29,770 I don't think it's about political will. I think it's about what the US does. 408 00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:30,830 Right. It's about Biden. 409 00:48:32,420 --> 00:48:44,630 But I think in this particular moment, after October 7th, if we take control over the narrative and we and I really believe in the right, 410 00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:50,270 I really believe that what we saw that is that you cannot defend the settlements and defend the borders of the country. 411 00:48:50,270 --> 00:48:53,839 At the same time, quite like it's a security question. 412 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:59,210 And if we're thinking about we learn about the wills of Israelis, I think this is the card that we need to put. 413 00:49:00,530 --> 00:49:07,820 And I think the Americans are the ones who should say, unless you do that, we stop delivering your weapon. 414 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:13,400 So we take all of our ships away. Vital. Whatever Nasrallah does, it's fine with us. 415 00:49:14,090 --> 00:49:18,380 And until they do that, I don't think there will be a political. 416 00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:24,590 But I think now we have a chance. And and and I don't want to be really honest. 417 00:49:24,590 --> 00:49:29,120 I do not understand how can Biden, who is losing the election to Trump because of this war, 418 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,679 does not take advantage of this and becomes the president will solve the problem in the Middle East. 419 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,910 He has Saudia Arabia with him, he has Egypt with him. There are all these forces around. 420 00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:44,460 There are enough forces within now the Israeli. Centre. 421 00:49:44,750 --> 00:49:48,290 Who'd be willing to move at least to that direction. 422 00:49:50,180 --> 00:49:55,480 And so and so I think it can happen, but it cannot happen just from political will of Israelis. 423 00:49:56,900 --> 00:49:58,280 Fantastic. Thank you.