1 00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:01,800 Wonderful to have you all back. 2 00:00:04,350 --> 00:00:12,840 I welcome you to the fifth meeting of our Hillary Church seminar, considering the political options following the Gaza war. 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:21,800 For a while there, there was a debate on whether we were talking about a two state solution or a bi national state. 4 00:00:23,210 --> 00:00:31,160 So with whatever happened, it seems that the conversation is uniquely about creating a Palestinian state as 5 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:37,340 part of resolving the conflict in an enduring way for the security of Israel, 6 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:41,450 for the justice of the Palestinian legitimate national aspirations. 7 00:00:42,870 --> 00:00:47,970 But there's a lot of diplomacy that will have to go into making that possibility a reality. 8 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:53,220 It's easy to talk about recognising Palestine or Palestinian statehood or a solution. 9 00:00:54,510 --> 00:00:57,480 But for reasons that are obvious to every one of you in this audience, 10 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,380 there are seemingly insurmountable barriers between saying those words and realising that vision. 11 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:16,200 But it's not an entirely new vision. And there have been those who have been active in the halls of power in Europe, in America, in the Middle East, 12 00:01:17,010 --> 00:01:23,640 who've been against all the odds working to try and keep the discussion about Palestinian statehood alive. 13 00:01:24,390 --> 00:01:30,450 I will credit the excellent Ambassador, Anabel, for having brought that conversation. 14 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:34,530 First to our halls here at the Middle East Centre. That's an outreach college, 15 00:01:34,980 --> 00:01:41,490 and I must say that I found it incredibly provocative to have the Israeli diplomat and 16 00:01:41,490 --> 00:01:46,410 former civil servant lecturing us on the imperative of recognising Palestinian statehood. 17 00:01:46,890 --> 00:01:50,700 That novelty has yet to wear off and it's a great pleasure to welcome out of your back. 18 00:01:51,180 --> 00:01:57,690 He was for years the Director-General of the Ministry of Finance, the State Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Israel, 19 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:06,930 before being appointed to serve his country as associate in Turkey and as Ambassador in the Republic of South Africa, 20 00:02:07,470 --> 00:02:14,760 where by photographic evidence he had the honour and pleasure of mingling with Nelson Mandela 21 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:21,060 and those who are at the forefront of resolving the apartheid situation in South Africa. 22 00:02:22,050 --> 00:02:29,450 The experiences that he has had in his reflections will be shared in a forthcoming book in Hebrew. 23 00:02:29,490 --> 00:02:37,170 We're waiting for the English translation examining Cyprus, Ireland and South Africa with an eye towards the Israel-Palestine conflict. 24 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,520 We will also be welcoming tonight's hikers. I knew they had done this. 25 00:02:44,330 --> 00:02:54,550 He is a Jordanian Spanish analyst, senior analyst of the Mediterranean and the Middle East at the Asciano Institute in Madrid, 26 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:00,430 where he also teaches international relations at the IIe University in Madrid. 27 00:03:01,090 --> 00:03:06,910 In his work and in his analysis, he covers the region from the Maghreb through to the Gulf. 28 00:03:07,450 --> 00:03:10,480 We are particularly pleased to be welcoming Haitham, 29 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:16,240 who will be able to shed light on the country that everyone has said has been at the forefront of 30 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:22,030 European diplomacy since seven October in advancing the goal of recognising Palestinian statehood. 31 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:28,000 But a subject on which we had precious little conversations in our press and discussions. 32 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,510 And so to be able to get the insider's view from Madrid. 33 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:44,229 We are delighted to have you with us tonight. And then, of course, Chris Doyle, who I had no idea that we so nearly overlapped in our time in post. 34 00:03:44,230 --> 00:03:50,470 But since 2002, he has been director of Cabu, the Centre for the Advancement of Arab British Understanding, 35 00:03:50,860 --> 00:03:59,200 based in London, an influential think tank and meeting place for the policy world with the world of analysis. 36 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,640 It is also where the Secretariat of the Old Palestine Group in Parliament is based, 37 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:14,350 through which liaison Chris played a key role in helping to bring a vote to the British Parliament in a non-binding fashion, 38 00:04:14,350 --> 00:04:19,750 Alas, on whether the House would move to recognise the state of Palestine. 39 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:27,150 I won't spoil it. For those of you who don't remember back to 2014 and leave to Chris to tell you that story in his own words. 40 00:04:27,570 --> 00:04:33,750 But what we have tonight is a panel who will be able to tell us not just about where the history of the diplomacy, 41 00:04:34,350 --> 00:04:42,810 of recognising Palestine, to realise the ambition of two states to solve the Palestine and Israel conflict as originated. 42 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,190 But where things stand today and where they are headed as we move forward. 43 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:53,880 So will you please welcome our three panellists tonight and I will yield at the podium to our first speaker. 44 00:04:54,390 --> 00:05:02,850 The accent, I hope. Thanks a lot. 45 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:11,370 Great to be here again. I've been to San Antonio several times, but not in this whole school. 46 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:28,690 One of the school. If I was a diplomat for a while, 30 years and over the years, especially the beginning of this century, 47 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:39,650 I started sensing that the country is changing to an extent that I have a difficulty to represent it. 48 00:05:40,990 --> 00:05:53,710 And then the conflict has deteriorated and the public has started to shift, as you know, to the right at a certain point. 49 00:05:54,580 --> 00:06:05,860 I left the ministry and with a group of retired ambassadors and we started thinking differently. 50 00:06:06,820 --> 00:06:11,469 And we were very much inspired by the British War. 51 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:20,170 LITTLE Having a shadow government created a small shadow foreign ministry without the budget. 52 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:26,290 And we started the thinking together. 53 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:42,700 And it is Israel grew stronger and became richer and more technologic and gradually developing. 54 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:54,310 This was before the 7th of October to a regional power, and we realised that the countries, individual countries are very reluctant to conform. 55 00:06:54,700 --> 00:07:08,500 Israel. And the leaders of this century were usually leaders who I don't want to use the term selfish, but then took care of their families. 56 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,610 They wanted employment. They wanted security. 57 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,989 They want to create them. Israel became a strong country. 58 00:07:16,990 --> 00:07:32,160 Nobody wanted to live with these with. Thought that we should go in that direction of recognition because all other avenues were blocked. 59 00:07:32,490 --> 00:07:42,090 Israel would not be sanctioned internationally and no European country will call their ambassador home and break relations with us. 60 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:55,500 Nobody, nobody in Europe could afford it. And we started publicising that over ten years ago on a certain momentum of the. 61 00:07:56,820 --> 00:08:05,510 Countries in Western Europe all the. 27, 28 countries, no matter if it's in the EU or outside the EU, 62 00:08:06,590 --> 00:08:13,340 recognising Palestine because these were the countries that Israel really cared about. 63 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:32,270 If Pakistan is doing it, or Indonesia or Guatemala, but the Western Union will do it, especially if it will trigger North American recognition. 64 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:42,320 This will make the difference and this is something that governments can do without Israel really having a say in this. 65 00:08:43,570 --> 00:09:01,150 And it's so important that on the 30th of October 2014, almost ten years ago, I opened the radio in Israel and Sweden recognised Palestine. 66 00:09:01,930 --> 00:09:09,130 Out of the blue was out of the blue because it was a very technical thing. 67 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:21,550 The Labour Party won elections and in the platform of the Labour Party it said that if we ever make it to power we will recognise Palestine. 68 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:25,749 So the new Prime Minister stood in front of the Parliament. 69 00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:30,170 This, I believe, a choice. I promised it to the Swedish public. 70 00:09:31,930 --> 00:09:39,410 The Israeli response was like an AIDS earthquake. 71 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:44,680 The. It was really unbelievable. 72 00:09:44,980 --> 00:09:51,700 Israel could not believe that the country of Europe having a good relations with us, 73 00:09:52,150 --> 00:10:01,170 with our member and our foreign minister, with a guy called Victoria Lieberman, I don't know how many. 74 00:10:02,110 --> 00:10:12,770 And he was so furious that he went on TV and called the Israeli public to boycott the year. 75 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:24,010 We called our ambassador of home and kicked out the Swedish ambassador and. 76 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:39,770 It was unbelievable. We we knew that this would be the reaction because, of course, Israel was really afraid of all the moment and. 77 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:50,990 It so happened that less than two weeks later I was invited to San Antonio's college. 78 00:10:51,620 --> 00:11:02,060 And by the way, it's not that the Amanda College here, and they were very proud that they're the smallest college in Oxford. 79 00:11:02,270 --> 00:11:06,710 Something was psychology. We had this discussion there. 80 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:18,110 And your professor, obviously, they said, Come, let's have breakfast together at the all of them. 81 00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:25,620 And we had breakfast. It was summer, third week of September. 82 00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:34,810 And he's telling me, you know, there is a motion in our parliament to recognise doesn't doesn't move and it just doesn't have any chance. 83 00:11:35,470 --> 00:11:39,950 But I'm telling you, just for the record and. 84 00:11:41,060 --> 00:11:48,860 I ask you, what should I do? How can I help? And he said, The guy from the small college is a lord. 85 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:53,299 He's like news. He hosted us in the small college. Excuse me. 86 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:58,130 I don't remember the name. His name is John. All the nice little drop on the desk. 87 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:04,850 Go to him because he is his say in the Liberal Party. 88 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:10,460 And then they ask if you can help. 89 00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:20,840 I came to look under those and I told him, Look, this is exciting because Sweden just the eastern group. 90 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:28,970 It so happens that the parliament will involved would call upon the government to recognise by this time it's sensational. 91 00:12:30,370 --> 00:12:34,290 He told me. I didn't know. I didn't know about such a motion. 92 00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:39,660 I'll. Let me drink. I'll be back to you. And the. 93 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:56,130 Two days later, I was visiting and only visited one of the mountains and the calls and he said, Yes, there is such a motion and you can help us. 94 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:06,300 How can I help you? Said you just write a letter to the Liberal Party signed by 100 Israelis that you supported. 95 00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:10,290 Try to find names that are known in Europe. 96 00:13:11,790 --> 00:13:21,150 I was on a mountain, you know, which was by far taller than the tallest mountain within Israel. 97 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:26,610 And then ten years ago, these machines they did works with. 98 00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:37,620 But I approached this group of retired ambassadors and I told them I need 100 signatures in a letter to the Liberal Party. 99 00:13:38,310 --> 00:13:44,700 And we need within a day or two, because I think it was Wednesday and the vote was Friday. 100 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,630 Took them a day or a day and a half and they signed it. 101 00:13:52,710 --> 00:14:02,310 They sent a letter to the Liberal Party, signed by 324 Israelis, among them big names in Europe. 102 00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:13,350 Of those like almost scores and David Grossman and and others names like Moses. 103 00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:21,890 I mean, if you know and this guy he couldn't believe is the one that won the night with the Rangers and he said this is very help. 104 00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:30,089 And he basically told me, look, the Labour Party will support the government because of the people, 105 00:14:30,090 --> 00:14:34,040 but they will be against it doesn't have any chance. It doesn't have any chance. 106 00:14:35,420 --> 00:14:39,770 But I came back to Israel. We worked on it like mad. 107 00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:43,910 And the the the vote. 108 00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:55,040 It was an overwhelming with an overwhelming majority don't get me I think it was to 114 to 10. 109 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,860 The conservatives didn't vote. 110 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:08,540 And it was an unbelievable shock in Israel that the British Parliament is calling on the British government to recognise Palestine. 111 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,710 We were thrilled. I mean, it was it was so fast. 112 00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:22,530 And the what we decided to do, we decided to approach another 15. 113 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:25,650 The West European governments, 114 00:15:26,130 --> 00:15:36,330 the East Europeans were not relevant because all the East Europeans recognised by the Steinbeck back in 1988 because they were communists then, 115 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:46,200 so they were not whether we we started one parliament after the other in the 116 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:53,970 petition group and we stopped this one 2000 and it was our humble machine. 117 00:15:54,660 --> 00:16:02,430 We send this petition to every member of Parliament in every West European countries. 118 00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:09,140 I think somebody can go get a check. The British decision was at the end of September. 119 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:15,590 October, November, December 12. 120 00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:23,390 European parliaments called upon the governments to recognise by different wordings the most 121 00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:31,100 and the strongest wording was that I was wrong and I think it was unanimous in Ireland. 122 00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:45,050 In other parliaments the language was is softer, but 1212 months unbelievable momentum and we. 123 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:54,460 We seen those twice a week of hip hop in Israel and Italy and France and Spain. 124 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:59,290 And the Israeli public was taken by surprise. 125 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:05,440 We had three or four that were left to January and February. 126 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:14,110 And, you know, there is this Christmas pause on the 5th of January, 2015. 127 00:17:14,820 --> 00:17:24,130 There was the big ISIS terror attack in Paris and the whole world gathered in Paris and demonstration against ISIS. 128 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:34,780 When we came back to the few parliaments that didn't do it and there was nobody to talk about because we made a brilliant move. 129 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:43,389 He connected. He tied in Hamas with ICC by the Palestinians with offices. 130 00:17:43,390 --> 00:17:54,700 And then what became after we genuinely hit to Europe, there was nobody really we could go and it disappeared. 131 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:58,150 The momentum disappeared because of ISIS. 132 00:17:58,150 --> 00:18:12,880 I was there the better in Europe, and nobody was ready to think on any favour to any Muslim country or nation or people. 133 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:18,190 And everything then is passed. 134 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:25,750 And it was gone. It was gone. The recognition was gone and the two states was gone. 135 00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:30,280 And we started working on different things. 136 00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:38,160 Until the morning at 8 a.m. on the 7th of October. 137 00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:46,840 I don't have to tell you stories. You live these stories in the last four months. 138 00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:53,950 But I was in one of these where all of us in the jump started their morning from their bed. 139 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:59,000 With the allowance and we were sure its mistakes. 140 00:18:59,010 --> 00:19:04,440 And that was then. And after a few hours we saw the magnitude of and. 141 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,980 The Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 142 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,100 Came back. To the agenda and to the national agenda. 143 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:31,900 We were speaking earlier. And I think if there is still a Ph.D. student that can make a complete analysis on how often was the two states mentioned, 144 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:40,320 and I wanted to talk about the flipped over or since you would see that it's bad, 145 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:47,649 it's but it was written by the DS speaking about the Lord, 146 00:19:47,650 --> 00:19:57,880 come on is thinking about the and it was speaking about it in the bedroom and he was spending it with his son and. 147 00:20:00,130 --> 00:20:11,670 We that were living through this momentum of September to December 2014 with our experience and a lot of work through. 148 00:20:12,130 --> 00:20:16,110 We see that and human and human to. 149 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:23,260 The big difference this time is that it's a different Israel. 150 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:32,910 Israel was. Prove itself overconfident. 151 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:39,640 And this is the. The reflection now over the world. 152 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,090 You don't deal with Israel. Israel is too strong. 153 00:20:43,390 --> 00:20:47,950 Just that. And the Palestinians are nothing. What can we gain from the Palestinians? 154 00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:52,360 This was not only the most ridiculous, it was on the Middle East. 155 00:20:52,810 --> 00:20:56,900 You saw that records and everybody wanted to be a friend, obviously. 156 00:20:57,820 --> 00:21:16,120 And Israel today is different. Israel of today, although we our prime minister, is still full of himself speaking on eliminating Hamas and so on. 157 00:21:16,690 --> 00:21:20,770 And Israel is very vulnerable now. Very vulnerable. 158 00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:33,570 And the this wall was an unbelievable blow to the Israeli public, discovering the weakness of our army, 159 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,700 the weakness of our intelligence and the abilities of the Palestinians. 160 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:51,930 We were totally unprepared. But the implications are far beyond the military and the casualties and the social implications on our economy. 161 00:21:52,800 --> 00:22:01,200 You have just seen that. I don't know if you heard about the Q that Moody's downgraded the rating of the Israeli economy. 162 00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:13,070 And in international pressure now, especially what I call the positive press, I see recognition as a positive move. 163 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:19,200 No sanctions. I don't think any country in Europe will really apply economic sanctions. 164 00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:24,380 We saw today in a move of the Netherlands and some of the military. 165 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:29,810 But generally speaking, the United States and Britain will not McCarthyism. 166 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,280 Now beginning on the settlers. But. 167 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:41,060 But. Recognising Palestine, if it would have such a moment to look upon it by governments, 168 00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:48,100 by governments starting on the national level and building a momentum that will move 169 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:55,050 to the U.N. and then the U.N. headed recognition of Palestine is a member state, 170 00:22:55,100 --> 00:23:01,510 not resisting because Palestine is already recognised as a state, but they are not a member state. 171 00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:05,770 If this will happen, it's a new ballgame. 172 00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:17,210 It's a new ballgame. And Eugene mentioned that they have a book coming out and the big lesson for why that was parity of esteem, priority of esteem. 173 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,210 Nobody in Israel had heard such a thing about such a thing. 174 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:36,930 And if we had the two countries, Israel and Palestine, having the same status in the U.N., it's a new ball game in the game, all tied in. 175 00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:41,640 And the whole issue on these two and more questions. 176 00:23:42,530 --> 00:23:53,240 Thank you. I don't. I would like to call to the podium. 177 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:59,990 Haitham Ahmed from London. Thank you for the update on where things stand now this moment in Europe. 178 00:24:01,190 --> 00:24:06,380 Hello, everyone. Thank you very much for rolling for an invitation. 179 00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:14,690 Thanks for being here. Have a great thing with this group of interesting speakers in the parliament. 180 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:19,700 So I guess I'm here, as Professor Rogan explained, because I come from Spain, 181 00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:29,240 and Spain has been credited as being at the forefront of calling for recognition of the state of Palestine since October seven. 182 00:24:30,730 --> 00:24:33,250 Have to do something that's not totally true. 183 00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:45,040 The only reason why Spain is seen as the country in the forefront is because the Israeli governments made it publicly 184 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:54,700 and admit that its goal was objective to attack the Spanish prime minister for what he dared to say in late November, 185 00:24:55,330 --> 00:25:00,190 not because he said something new or even because he did something really different. 186 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,190 Not much has been done before to say some statements, some important symbolic moves, 187 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:14,020 but no initiatives, no sanctions, no nothing that is outside of the EU boss. 188 00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:21,999 So the fact that the Israeli prime minister and his foreign affairs minister decided to recall the Israeli 189 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:29,860 ambassador from Madrid and made a big fuss of what Spanish by Mr. together with the Belgian Prime minister, 190 00:25:29,860 --> 00:25:40,540 was next to him. I guess not too many people remember that the Belgian Prime Minister was friends is what's basically brought me here today. 191 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:51,460 So let me tell you a little bit of what the Spanish government has said and done over the past few months. 192 00:25:52,150 --> 00:25:58,570 But before that, let me give you a little bit of background of the diplomatic relations that the 193 00:25:58,570 --> 00:26:05,620 Kingdom of Spain has had with both the state of Israel and Palestine in modern times. 194 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:09,700 And that was passed in 1986. 195 00:26:09,790 --> 00:26:16,210 Doctors. Once Spain had become democracy, it was able to join the European community. 196 00:26:16,690 --> 00:26:25,390 And in 1986, talking about recognitions, Spain recognised the state of Israel, plus a late comer in the European countries. 197 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:31,480 1986. The recognition happened under a socialist government led by people in a hurry. 198 00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:38,470 So it was a leftist government that decided against the traditional Spanish position 199 00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:42,430 of having close relations with the Arab countries to recognise the state of Israel. 200 00:26:44,350 --> 00:26:56,260 That allowed Spain to be the Spanish capital of Madrid to host the Madrid peace conference in 1991, five years after took a read. 201 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,320 It was viewed as a country that, you know, for all the different actors in the region. 202 00:27:04,540 --> 00:27:17,989 Was neutral enough, friendly enough. At the time when US President George H.W. Bush, the father of Spanish guidance, told him, 203 00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:22,610 I'd like to hold international peace conference on the Middle East in two weeks. 204 00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:27,470 Can you please, please, please underscore that summit? 205 00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:31,520 I think James Baker was the Voluntarios diplomacy, etc. 206 00:27:31,820 --> 00:27:37,280 So it took place in Madrid. That's why I told him. I think the peace process when it was launched was in Madrid. 207 00:27:37,580 --> 00:27:41,810 Just to give you a little bit of history of where Spain is in all this. 208 00:27:43,340 --> 00:27:48,200 There was a social summit in Spain in 2012. 209 00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:52,280 It was no longer a socialist government. It was a conservative, the People's Party government. 210 00:27:52,880 --> 00:28:02,930 In 2012, Spain joined other EU member states in voting in favour of the recognition of Palestine as a non-member observer state. 211 00:28:03,530 --> 00:28:06,530 Writing it is that status nothing permanent. 212 00:28:06,890 --> 00:28:14,810 Sorry, non-member observer state, as the United Nations does not the recognition of statehood, but in a way one recognised state. 213 00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:26,130 Well, there's something wrong because those the Conservative Party, the same Conservative Party does in 2014 following another round of violence and. 214 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,730 Decided to place a temporary ban on weapons exports to Israel. 215 00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:39,720 It's not that Spain was exporting really a lot of weapons. It was more symbolic measure for some months. 216 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:47,640 Spain made it public that it was not exporting weapons to Israel 2014, that same year in the month of November. 217 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:56,980 As I was just mentioning, the Spanish parliament was one of those who joined that momentum in Europe, and there was not a unanimous vote. 218 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,760 I think there were two and for some reason voted against. 219 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:06,810 But all the rest of Spanish and peace, of all the different political parties represented in Parliament, 220 00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:13,380 voted in favour of a non-binding motion asking the Spanish government to recognise the state of Palestine in 2014. 221 00:29:15,370 --> 00:29:23,230 One year later, there was a different regulation in 2015 of the recognition of the rights of Soviet Jews. 222 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:30,920 To get of citizenship battles, a law passed by the Spanish parliament. 223 00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:37,340 I think it was a unanimous vote at the time. There were certain conditions that needed to be met. 224 00:29:37,670 --> 00:29:43,940 But those Jews who could prove that they had origins and roots in Spain, this class, 225 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:54,560 that's why they would consider some Yugoslavian Jews could access the Spanish citizenship without in their citizenship, whatever, whatever they have. 226 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:59,980 There was no public opinion rejection of that law. 227 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:11,140 This is also to give you an idea of reconciling, you know, sometimes difficulties with its past and with history going back centuries ago. 228 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:16,870 Let's jump to the past four months, 2023. 229 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:30,870 Following the attacks on Israel on October 7th, the EU did not manage to come up with a common position for. 230 00:30:32,540 --> 00:30:36,000 A week. One would say that he was slow. 231 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:40,510 It takes time for all to see the machinery in the situation like that. 232 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:51,500 A week is a lot, especially when you have different EU representatives starting to do their own not common position, but sometimes personal position. 233 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,010 You know, individually I'm thinking of the president of the commission of, you know, 234 00:30:57,050 --> 00:31:02,360 the EU Parliament as well, and the cacophony that was coming out of Brussels. 235 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,410 So it was the Spanish presidency of the European Semester of Spanish classes, 236 00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:16,969 convenes a Council of European Foreign Affairs Council to I suppose you can cancel on the 15th. 237 00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:24,050 It's eight days after that to come up with a European common position, EU common position. 238 00:31:24,590 --> 00:31:29,390 It was not very much of a common position for just the minimum asking for, 239 00:31:29,420 --> 00:31:34,819 you know, whatever, a few things, not even a ceasefire or humanitarian pauses. 240 00:31:34,820 --> 00:31:38,720 It was, you know, the wording was a bit difficult. Spain pushed a lot. 241 00:31:39,140 --> 00:31:44,180 This is, I think, where it started to emerge, like in the forefront of, you know, 242 00:31:44,210 --> 00:31:51,440 European countries doing something different and not following what the Germans want the rest of the EU member states to do. 243 00:31:52,370 --> 00:32:00,020 And I will talk a little bit about Germany that some other EU member states for them that have been, 244 00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:06,020 you know, I guess looking at a more forceful EU position. 245 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:19,630 So on November 24th, the Spanish prime minister went to Israel, a visit to Israel and met with the president, met with the prime minister in public. 246 00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:30,390 Made several statements asking for immediate release of the Israeli hostages in the hands of Hamas and other Palestinian groups, 247 00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:43,020 something that has been repeating again and again and talking about Israel's legitimate right to self-defence when being attacked in the first place. 248 00:32:44,690 --> 00:32:51,769 But also telling Netanyahu that the right to self-defence is not does not allow for 249 00:32:51,770 --> 00:32:56,330 collective punishment and that international humanitarian law has to be respected. 250 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:04,610 Drastically massive retaliation plus not respecting international humanitarian law. 251 00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:09,050 He said the same thing at the Rafah crossing on the Egyptian side. 252 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:19,820 Together with the prime minister next to him. And that is what led our governments to go very angrily against him. 253 00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:24,000 Let me give you a few ideas to try to explain to you this. 254 00:33:24,020 --> 00:33:27,800 I think you accept existence Spain towards Israel and Palestine. 255 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,370 Obviously, there's a long history. No. History will go back centuries. 256 00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:44,240 Relations with the immediate Mediterranean and neighbourhoods with Arab countries under the Franco dictatorship. 257 00:33:44,290 --> 00:33:49,419 When Spain had difficulties joining the United Nations because there were 258 00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:53,990 sanctions or there were countries that were not willing Spain to join the UN. 259 00:33:54,460 --> 00:34:03,190 Some newly born Arab states, newly independent Arab states, also brought their votes in favour of Spain to the UN. 260 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,340 So that's a little bit of, you know, decades ago. 261 00:34:07,030 --> 00:34:13,150 But in the Spanish public opinion, especially society, there is a strong feeling towards the right to self-determination. 262 00:34:14,110 --> 00:34:19,390 It it's very present, right and left self-determination of the Palestinians. 263 00:34:21,660 --> 00:34:24,870 Having been under a dictatorship, have you been isolated? 264 00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:32,040 I think also conflicts in a way in viewing this right for some variation for the Palestinians. 265 00:34:33,630 --> 00:34:41,730 When extremist groups in Palestine acts, we see that the reaction in some European societies. 266 00:34:42,820 --> 00:34:50,580 Tends to mix those groups with the Palestinians, or at least that's public opinion levels in Spain. 267 00:34:51,450 --> 00:34:57,520 I think we have a. Very vivid memory of home-grown terrorism. 268 00:34:58,630 --> 00:35:10,810 The terrorism officer, E.T.A. in the Basque Country, and how Spaniards managed to come to the conclusion that in fact some of the best. 269 00:35:12,530 --> 00:35:15,650 That was a slogan that defeated attack in a way bus. 270 00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:19,300 See? In fact, no. Yes to masks. 271 00:35:19,550 --> 00:35:28,580 No to either. So I think that differentiation between what Hamas or other groups do and what the Palestinians as a people are, 272 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:36,840 that is very present in the psyche of this time years because of the experience and the trauma that the country something also. 273 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:47,120 I mean, do you say that despite public opinion, pro or anti pro Palestinian, Israeli or vice versa, it's more difficult than that. 274 00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:50,270 I gave you some examples to show why that is the case. 275 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,410 What has happened since October seven at the European level, At the EU level? 276 00:35:55,050 --> 00:36:03,860 Well, you've also provoked profound divisions, Profound divisions when it comes to the messaging or the positioning, 277 00:36:04,820 --> 00:36:13,570 voting at the United Nations General Assembly. He wasn't able to come up with a common position, unlike with the war in Ukraine. 278 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,350 It had its member states had three different positions. 279 00:36:17,530 --> 00:36:23,920 Some voted in favour for a resolution asking for immediate humanitarian cease fire with the release of hostages, etc. 280 00:36:24,340 --> 00:36:30,580 Others are things like, well, maybe he didn't think that conditions were right. 281 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,380 And some EU member states will be against that resolution. 282 00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:39,280 The division was profound. And also. 283 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,910 The EU has been unable to formulate the policy. 284 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:56,130 To ask for a cease fire or even to sanction settlers, extremist settlers in the West Bank that are attacking Palestinians. 285 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:03,870 What is shocking, I mean, when you look at the Biden administration that has already made some sanctions on a number of those settlers, 286 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,440 the EU as of today has not been able to do the same thing. 287 00:37:08,290 --> 00:37:13,280 Okay, So. What did the Spanish prime minister do? 288 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:21,709 I think he was a bit early in his statements that he made, 289 00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:27,860 that the time was still October and November, and he made those statements before others followed him. 290 00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:31,990 I don't know if it was because of know political. 291 00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:39,350 I do believe that he had like the sense that this is where we're going to be heading. 292 00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:49,460 So I'm never ahead of the curve. But what he said is what others are repeating today, the recognition of the Palestinian states. 293 00:37:50,450 --> 00:37:56,570 Solution based on not a peace process, but a two state process. 294 00:37:57,850 --> 00:38:10,030 And now we try to break with the cycle of occupation, of resistance, terrorism, of collective punishment, 295 00:38:11,380 --> 00:38:16,790 and realising that the risk of having a regional conflagration and regional war in 296 00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:21,910 the Middle East would be too high and too costly and too dangerous for the EU. 297 00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:32,559 And I think that is something that as of today the EU High Representative for foreign and Security policy, 298 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:39,290 Mr. Josep Borrell, who happens to be standing as well, he is one of the vocal voices in Brussels. 299 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:51,290 I think one of the you wise voices in Brussels who is seeing that the risk is real, the risk is high, the escalation needs to take place immediately. 300 00:38:51,310 --> 00:38:58,150 The human cost not only, you know, the human cost and the reputational costs for the EU, 301 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:06,370 but at the same time is talking about Ukraine and the right of Ukrainians to defend themselves against aggression, humanitarian law, 302 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,040 etc., etc., while next door around Mediterranean, 303 00:39:11,050 --> 00:39:15,700 the same neighbourhood that so he knows he belongs to something terrible is 304 00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:21,400 happening and it's undermining the EU and the international rules based order. 305 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:32,770 So I'll leave it here and maybe we can continue the meeting. Thank you. And we had over the. 306 00:39:32,770 --> 00:39:37,690 Chris Doyle, thank you very much. And it's a huge excited to be here. 307 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:44,320 It's fantastic news. And to follow both Alan and Hiaasen on this. 308 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:52,030 You know, when we talk about recognition, it reminds me of so many debates and discussions over the years. 309 00:39:52,510 --> 00:39:58,450 In fact, I first started in cover in 1993, just before the onset crisis in my first stint, 310 00:39:59,290 --> 00:40:10,900 and we got a call and it was early September and the person didn't identify themselves and said, Listen, we've had a request from the Daily Mail. 311 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,400 They want to know how many countries, how many states have recognised the PLO. 312 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:24,340 You know, I was I was young then and I sort of said, I think it's about a hundred whatever, you know, the figure was. 313 00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:31,190 But I'm not really sure. And I asked my colleague and I said, Well, listen, I think you really ought to ring the PLO office. 314 00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:34,320 I had no growth. We are here now. 315 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:46,720 So, yeah, I go back some time on this issue, but it's in tons of time. 316 00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:51,550 It does feel we talk about recognition now. 317 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,110 Boy, doesn't it feel like it doesn't. 318 00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:03,999 Isn't that incredible? But actually, there is even now a discussion about possible recognition without any commitment, 319 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,940 without anybody actually saying we're definitely going to do it. 320 00:41:08,650 --> 00:41:15,880 At the moment, the Palestinians are asking in Gaza whether they will survive the month. 321 00:41:17,260 --> 00:41:27,880 That is really the story of this. That is the context in which we're talking about the lack of courage is quite shocking. 322 00:41:29,050 --> 00:41:34,930 Because recognition should never have been some punishment for Israeli poor behaviour. 323 00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:40,690 It should never have been something to bash an Israeli government with. 324 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:50,380 It should have been something to push forward Palestinian politics and their legitimate quest for self-determination. 325 00:41:51,610 --> 00:41:55,240 So is it too late as we look at Gaza? The Gaza Strip? 326 00:41:56,260 --> 00:42:00,520 Gaza has always played a fundamental role in Palestinian politics. 327 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:13,480 Is it a box to be so smashed, so destroyed that actually it won't be able to be part of a future Palestinian state should it come into being? 328 00:42:14,290 --> 00:42:18,490 We're looking at a situation, you know, the fatality counts, 28,000. 329 00:42:19,090 --> 00:42:22,659 We're now well over 12,000 children having been killed. 330 00:42:22,660 --> 00:42:28,390 70% of the victims, women, children. 60% of the buildings have been destroyed or damaged. 331 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:35,920 Only 13 out of 36 hospitals or even partially operational primary health care centres destroyed. 332 00:42:36,850 --> 00:42:38,470 What is there left? 333 00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:50,230 If, ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow we were able to get that magical cease fire, the C word that everyone's been refusing to call for. 334 00:42:51,310 --> 00:42:55,240 It would take years to restore Gaza. 335 00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:59,530 Gaza not just to make it forget being liveable, just to be just safe. 336 00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:11,330 The water supplies, the sewage. That's the context in which this debate is sort of rather nervously going forward in Westminster. 337 00:43:13,310 --> 00:43:22,700 Let's be clear. We are asking for a very small measure in terms of the context, and that's before we get to the West Bank. 338 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,410 The West Bank, which of course would be the larger part of such a state, one assumes. 339 00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:35,950 Over 700,000 settlers. It's tripled since the days of Oslo. 340 00:43:35,970 --> 00:43:43,920 When I took that first phone call from the PLO office all over the West Bank, not just close to the Green Line. 341 00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:52,290 New areas, ABC, H1, H2, seem zone nature zones, military reserves, foreign zones. 342 00:43:52,890 --> 00:44:01,800 And somehow this is all going to be unravelled to create what should be a viable, credible, independent, sovereign Palestinian state. 343 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,900 Well, that's. That's the context in which we're dealing with. 344 00:44:10,510 --> 00:44:17,740 And if we can't get our politicians to do that right now, it's the most. 345 00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:25,820 And we're late also today. You may have heard that Britain has sanctioned full sentence. 346 00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:29,930 It's very much the same number as the United States. 347 00:44:31,110 --> 00:44:35,060 So, you know, little baby steps of accountability here. 348 00:44:35,780 --> 00:44:45,380 But quite frankly, if you could go back decades and give examples of where Israeli settlers could have been sanctioned. 349 00:44:45,410 --> 00:44:54,860 I'm sure Alon, you know, will agree member Moshe Lwanga in Hebron and his wife and, you know, 350 00:44:54,860 --> 00:45:02,810 and others who have committed outrageous acts of violence to push Palestinian communities off their land. 351 00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:07,550 So it's only now. Right. It was sort of last. 352 00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:14,250 Point. Perhaps, but we're actually going to take some minor action. 353 00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:21,520 Forgive me, but I think if you went to Israeli human rights organisations, other groups, 354 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,940 you could identify a huge number of Israeli settlers who perpetrate such acts of violence. 355 00:45:28,380 --> 00:45:32,980 And where are the actions against those groups that actually organise this? 356 00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:38,890 Well, you see, I mean. You see pogroms this time? 357 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:45,700 If you went back for 14 months, girls pogrom at Howrah outside Nablus. 358 00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:51,420 One in Hebron, too. I turned up the day after I saw the results. 359 00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:55,500 What settlers have been led in by the army with the complicity of the Australian, 360 00:45:55,500 --> 00:46:04,270 with the assistance of the Israeli army into the Palestinian controlled area and QE1 and the run amok. 361 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,430 So this is forward thinking about doing that. 362 00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:18,450 I would say, though, to point out that the executive order of President Biden does allow for some considerable action against such groups. 363 00:46:19,230 --> 00:46:23,640 I hope that they will actually, in the United States, consider going forward with that. 364 00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:34,210 And if we have to wait for the United States, then do it. So be it. So why, why, why haven't why are we so reluctant? 365 00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:37,030 Why says reluctance to do this? 366 00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:49,150 As Eugene said, we do a lot of work with members of Parliament and former member of Parliament in the audience, and we take delegations out there. 367 00:46:49,540 --> 00:46:57,250 And I actually took Graham Morris, who introduced that vote in the House of Commons out the West Bank. 368 00:46:57,610 --> 00:47:00,819 We had a had a delegation, and I remember discussing it. 369 00:47:00,820 --> 00:47:12,460 And one reason I remember is because we'd been out on a long journey visiting various communities had been under threat from settlers around Nablus. 370 00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:24,580 We got a call later in the day and said, Would you, the delegation, please come and visit Muqata and the memorial to Yasser Arafat? 371 00:47:25,870 --> 00:47:28,600 And we were pretty exhausted. It's been a long day. 372 00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:35,600 And because we've been out on, you know, very much visiting these communities, we weren't wearing suits or jackets. 373 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,650 We weren't appropriately addressed. So we did we did decide we had to go back. 374 00:47:42,330 --> 00:47:46,710 But one of the mops was wearing a sort of bright blue and white shell suit. 375 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,300 And so, of course, photographers turned up British delegation. 376 00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:56,400 We sort of put on a reasonable probably something similar to what I'm wearing now. 377 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:05,310 And he's wearing his blue and white shell suits. But at the time, they hadn't realised that Arafat wasn't recognised by the Israelis as president. 378 00:48:06,090 --> 00:48:13,050 They don't, is Chairman Arafat. That's right. So we had this discussion and actually triggered the discussion about recognition and statehood. 379 00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:18,480 And so Graham did put forward that debate. 380 00:48:18,990 --> 00:48:29,940 It was one 270 votes, 12 at the time, largely those figures slightly misleading because a huge number abstained. 381 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:37,200 You know, at the time, but it was an indication of a considerable amount of parliamentary support. 382 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:44,970 I remember actually the morning of that day, we had some Palestinians in the office refused to leave and I said, we're going to win that vote. 383 00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:51,090 I thought that was just not going to happen. Come on. They looked at me as if I was mad and I said, No, no, it's going to be won. 384 00:48:51,660 --> 00:48:55,049 It's not going to. It's not finding it's not going to change things. 385 00:48:55,050 --> 00:48:58,500 But we'll win the vote quite handsomely. 386 00:48:59,580 --> 00:49:03,390 That has always been actually quite a lot of backbench support for recognition. 387 00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:05,940 So it begs the question, why not? 388 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:14,720 It is the lack of courage, it's the lack of courage to stand up to a very assertive Israel, one that is prepared to hit back. 389 00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:25,560 One that is prepared to push back. And we have to have a political system and leaderships who have had to say, no, we are going to do this. 390 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,570 And that's what we've lacked. Let's be it's lack of political will. 391 00:49:32,140 --> 00:49:35,020 There is a Palestinian element to this, of course, as well. 392 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:44,470 It would be, I think, easier to push such an agenda if there was a more coherent Palestinian leadership. 393 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:51,010 The division between Hamas and Fatah, of course, has not made it easier. 394 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:56,590 The lack of credibility of the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah also. 395 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:06,340 But since 2011, William Hague made clear at the time that Palestine, qualified as a state, had all the ingredients of a state. 396 00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:14,230 And in many ways it actually has many of the characteristics that other countries that are recognised perhaps don't have it. 397 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,120 And you don't recognise a specific government. You don't endorse it. 398 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:26,590 You don't say, we like this, you're recognising statehood. It's not about saying we like to pay more than Hamas or anything like that. 399 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:34,100 And of course it would be a state under occupation. The Israeli argument is right that still be under occupation the day after. 400 00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:38,470 But you would get to the parity of esteem that you mentioned. 401 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,360 It would be nice to have some esteem for Palestinian rights, to be honest. 402 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,820 But apparently esteem is important when they come to negotiations. 403 00:50:48,940 --> 00:50:56,170 In theory, you have to end the occupation first. But in this conflict, things don't go according to what should happen. 404 00:50:57,730 --> 00:50:59,290 And that's for very obvious reasons. 405 00:50:59,290 --> 00:51:06,850 And occupiers shouldn't be allowed to negotiate with an occupied party because it has the dominant hand can dictate terms. 406 00:51:08,590 --> 00:51:12,940 Briefly, going forward, what what can we expect? 407 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:21,420 Unless the international community, such as it is, starts taking very serious action. 408 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:28,280 And I mean humans this week, I think all of these options are going to look very remote. 409 00:51:29,550 --> 00:51:34,560 Personally, my view, I don't know if Alan agrees. I think Netanyahu needs the crisis to continue. 410 00:51:34,590 --> 00:51:38,040 I don't believe he's going to sign any cease fire to his signature. 411 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,400 He's not going to back one with Hamas. 412 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,880 It's not in his own personal or political interest. 413 00:51:47,370 --> 00:51:53,890 If anything, he wouldn't mind the whole thing spreading into the West Bank even more severely than it is for my. 414 00:51:55,250 --> 00:51:59,090 You keep the crisis going. You don't change the leader in the middle of a crisis. 415 00:52:00,910 --> 00:52:06,130 The whole thing carries on. Netanyahu may be able to stay in office. 416 00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:12,760 I don't think he has any desire to. I think he wants to work out a way to go into. 417 00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:25,090 And he certainly has no desire to see a Palestinian state. Everything that he has done in the right wing of the Likud is to prevent this coming out. 418 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:26,980 The split between Hamas and Fatah. 419 00:52:28,420 --> 00:52:39,280 Even the withdrawal out of Gaza in 2005 was about facilitating this split in Palestinian politics to undermine the Palestinian national movement. 420 00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:44,740 If we are serious moving forward, we have to reinvigorate the Palestinian national movement. 421 00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:54,090 We have to demonstrate that those prepared to use a non-violent path can achieve credible gains. 422 00:52:54,110 --> 00:53:03,080 Those prepared to negotiate can achieve that freedom, and that those who wish to use violence aren't going to achieve it. 423 00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:08,420 At the moment. All our policies applying to the likes of Hamas. 424 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:16,660 It's extraordinary. They're getting more popular, more funding, more credibility, whether we like it or not. 425 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,290 And I'm not sure that's understood in Westminster. 426 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:28,920 I'm not sure it's understood how much of our reputation, such as it is, has been utterly damaged by this across the world. 427 00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:40,170 The double standards involved are fairly extreme. North, South America, rest of Asia, Africa are looking at us and saying, 428 00:53:40,170 --> 00:53:45,300 Don't ever come to us ever again to talk about international law and human rights. 429 00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:48,140 And that's something we should all be very concerned about. 430 00:53:49,500 --> 00:53:56,070 So recognition is just but one of the things that needs to happen in order to correct that. 431 00:53:57,350 --> 00:54:00,080 And I'm not saying at this stage just to finish on this point, 432 00:54:00,620 --> 00:54:08,390 but that necessarily means a two state solution is my blueprint for resolving this conflict is not for me to put that out there, 433 00:54:09,170 --> 00:54:14,899 but recognition is a way at least the person can say we recognise Palestinian self-determination. 434 00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:25,129 We give it to me, how the two parties decide to live with each other is is for them obviously regions that are absolutely essential, 435 00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:28,210 like ending that occupation. Before you can get. 436 00:54:28,900 --> 00:54:29,710 Thank you very much. 437 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:45,700 Okay, panellists, we're going to take the questions here from the tables who are not getting up and going to the podium each time we get a question. 438 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:55,320 Before I launch into questions, I should have said from the outset that this is a doubly special seminar tonight because unusually for San Antonio, 439 00:54:55,330 --> 00:54:56,800 it brings two senators together, 440 00:54:57,220 --> 00:55:03,610 and particularly in our contact with you think we're very grateful to our colleagues from the European Studies Centre who are the joint hosts? 441 00:55:03,940 --> 00:55:09,940 I saw colleagues from the European Studies Centre filtering into Nice to see you guys here, but of course it's a joint centre. 442 00:55:10,300 --> 00:55:14,260 So let me recognise that one right now and thank them for their help in bringing this together. 443 00:55:14,620 --> 00:55:21,040 I'm going to prompt ITER and thank Chris to say just a little bit more where things are going. 444 00:55:22,810 --> 00:55:33,370 Chris, you were actually at the reception hosted by the conservative Middle East Counsel when Lord Cameron made his surprise announcement 445 00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:45,670 that Britain actually was looking to recognise Palestinian statehood as part of a post conflict of Gaza and Palestine situation. 446 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,170 And very shortly after that we saw the White House making a very similar statement. 447 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:58,389 So if you could share with us, you know, what the mood was like when Cameron actually made that announcement and whether you 448 00:55:58,390 --> 00:56:04,030 think that that reflects a concerted effort bringing Britain and America together. 449 00:56:04,220 --> 00:56:05,110 Before you answer, 450 00:56:05,410 --> 00:56:13,750 I think really it's whether there is momentum building between Spain and other countries in the EU to try and take a kind of vanguard role. 451 00:56:14,740 --> 00:56:23,380 While you talk about an EU that's sort of divided three ways in its voting so far, at least in the Security Council, you know, 452 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:31,720 is there something meaningful coming from Spanish diplomacy with other like minded countries that might be creating a momentum in Europe, 453 00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:36,430 such as what I thought was talking about had been the norm in 2014? 454 00:56:36,700 --> 00:56:39,940 So could I ask you to do just that? And then I promise, guys, the questions are yours. 455 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:46,210 Yes, I was in in the room when Cameron made this address. 456 00:56:48,190 --> 00:56:51,300 A few comments. Firstly, I thought he was genuine. 457 00:56:51,310 --> 00:56:57,310 I think he did say at the time we want to see the fighting and now he gave his blessing to that. 458 00:56:58,060 --> 00:57:05,470 And I think, you know, he was serious. The Government's position has transitioned to one now and said it's sort of calling for pauses. 459 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:13,780 It is a pause, moving to a seamless, credible, sustainable cease fire, which is almost as good as saying an immediate cease fire. 460 00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:20,830 That just can't come out. And and so on the issue of statehood, he didn't say we're going to recognise, 461 00:57:21,460 --> 00:57:30,010 but he said we reserve the right to do it and they would do it very much not at the end of the process, but in the middle of it. 462 00:57:30,250 --> 00:57:36,010 So in other words, it would be done in order to actually encourage things forward, 463 00:57:36,910 --> 00:57:44,680 not as at the last step, if it was a very nuanced change in emphasis as much as anything. 464 00:57:45,490 --> 00:57:53,740 And he also made it very clear that Israel would not have a veto over this and 465 00:57:53,740 --> 00:58:00,490 that therefore the British decision is one that could be taken at any time. 466 00:58:02,140 --> 00:58:07,060 In terms of actual substance and what he said, it wasn't a huge change, 467 00:58:07,060 --> 00:58:18,700 but actually it been said by a foreign secretary in a one and he made it, I think, pretty obvious that. 468 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:25,940 It wasn't beyond the bounds of possibility that Britain could go down this path in the not too distant future. 469 00:58:26,660 --> 00:58:31,010 And I think that everyone in the room could read the signs that, you know. 470 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,420 Israel be aware, you know, this is within our power to do and we might do it. 471 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:45,910 And the decision the United States has made knows this is one of the things they are looking at now. 472 00:58:47,020 --> 00:58:50,980 But are they going to move any further? Have we heard anything more since? 473 00:58:52,220 --> 00:58:57,400 Not. Not a great deal. But I would say that what is key is. 474 00:58:58,740 --> 00:59:04,200 These leaders, I think, are now there, having criticised what Israel has done in Gaza. 475 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,580 But they don't want to go back to the situation of another war in Gaza. 476 00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:12,050 This is the sixth major Israeli war in Gaza since 2006. 477 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,260 They don't want to go back to and know not to go back there. 478 00:59:15,290 --> 00:59:23,630 They understand there's got to be a potential solution on the table and the only one they can coalesce around is a two state solution, 479 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,450 which would require the recognition of a Palestinian state. 480 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:35,959 And the only time we push back against the Israeli government is when Netanyahu said or the Israeli ambassador said, 481 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,130 we're never going to allow a Palestinian state. And then they criticised. 482 00:59:40,730 --> 00:59:47,720 And that's, I think, the context in which the visa bans on settlers, the sanctions on settlers have come about. 483 00:59:48,170 --> 00:59:55,190 So I don't think you can block statehood because we are going to push back very hard on that. 484 00:59:55,580 --> 00:59:58,900 Fairly hard. And then. Yes. 485 00:59:59,500 --> 01:00:02,560 So there is an EU momentum on recognition. 486 01:00:02,830 --> 01:00:12,550 Okay. So from what I know, the Spanish government, Spanish officials are talking with other like minded European governments trying to. 487 01:00:14,530 --> 01:00:20,140 Think of the good timing. Maybe not the best time, but good, good timing to make a difference. 488 01:00:21,370 --> 01:00:26,920 Clearly, what's going on today makes it very difficult to just, you know, make a statement. 489 01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:33,250 We recognise the state of Palestine as if that's going to solve the monstrosities that we are seeing today. 490 01:00:34,810 --> 01:00:38,830 I think some European countries are waiting for signals from Washington. 491 01:00:40,450 --> 01:00:48,820 So the fact that now there is more and more talk about the Biden administration considering the recognition of the statehood for Palestine, 492 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:55,570 that will make some countries, especially Germany, always Germany, you know, consider that maybe that's a good idea. 493 01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:03,340 Today, there was a statement by the high representative, the E.U. high representative for foreign and security policy. 494 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,160 Suggesting the need for an arms embargo against Israel. 495 01:01:13,010 --> 01:01:24,890 So that is obviously he doesn't have the power to make the 27 EU governments follow or, you know, impose that arms embargo. 496 01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:31,040 But the fact that he's already speaking about that, the Germans are unhappy, the Austrians, 497 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,300 the Czechs and the Hungarians don't like at all what Mr. Borrell is saying. 498 01:01:35,750 --> 01:01:42,110 But, you know, if Washington, you know, starts moving in a different direction, that could make a difference. 499 01:01:42,590 --> 01:01:46,210 I think coordination between. EU. 500 01:01:46,330 --> 01:01:50,590 Some EU governments like the Spanish government with Arab governments. 501 01:01:50,830 --> 01:01:54,840 And this is something you know, I was mentioning this earlier to Chris. 502 01:01:55,300 --> 01:02:03,640 The level of coordination among some Arab governments and even from Muslim countries among Arabs, is something that we are not used to seeing. 503 01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:06,610 Those of us who follow and study the region, 504 01:02:07,030 --> 01:02:18,999 we have seen that weeks after October 7th there was a summit of the Arab League and the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation that was convened 505 01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:30,250 in Riyadh with almost all heads of state showed up and the Iranian was there and everyone was there and they issued a final statement. 506 01:02:31,490 --> 01:02:37,400 In which, by the way, they talked about the two state solution. So the Iranians need to be asked, you know what? 507 01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:41,690 You know, there's something about a two state solution. Iran also signed that statement. 508 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,650 And today there's a meeting in Washington. 509 01:02:47,150 --> 01:02:58,250 President Biden will be hosting King Abdullah of Jordan, who is carrying a message from the Arab group to Washington. 510 01:02:58,700 --> 01:03:07,700 Arab countries, they all you know, we all know they have their own calculations, interests, but all of them have seen that things have gone too far. 511 01:03:08,090 --> 01:03:12,950 The risk for the entire region, the risk of escalation of a regional war, 512 01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:23,750 the risk of the Netanyahu government deciding to expand, you know, operations beyond the West Bank and also domestic stability. 513 01:03:24,590 --> 01:03:29,240 I'm talking about Jordan and stability for Jordan. 514 01:03:30,380 --> 01:03:40,040 What if there's a forced transfer of Palestinians from Gaza through Rafah into the Sinai or from the West Bank into Jordan? 515 01:03:40,310 --> 01:03:43,700 The Jordanian government has talked about a declaration of war. 516 01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:47,150 If that happens, the Egyptians are talking about red lines, a lot of things. 517 01:03:47,420 --> 01:03:57,530 So just to conclude, I think the on the issue of recognition, we have to look also at the signals coming from the region itself. 518 01:03:57,770 --> 01:04:04,610 There was a Saudi statement from the Saudi foreign ministry three days ago in which the Saudi government 519 01:04:04,610 --> 01:04:14,040 was telling the three permanent UN Security Council members that have not recognised Palestine yet. 520 01:04:14,300 --> 01:04:22,459 That is the U.S., U.K. and France, that in the absence of a recognition of Palestinian states, the borders of 67, 521 01:04:22,460 --> 01:04:31,370 with East Jerusalem as the capital and the absence of an end of the aggression in Gaza and withdrawal of all forces from Gaza, 522 01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,210 there will be no normalisation between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Israel. 523 01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:38,600 So the sequencing now turned upside down. 524 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:43,400 It's not the Abraham Accords. One one, like single recognitions, is the other way around. 525 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:50,270 We work on Palestine, then recognitions will come and normalisation and Israel will become a normal country in its neighbourhood. 526 01:04:50,300 --> 01:04:55,310 That's the point, is achieving normalisation requires all states to be normal. 527 01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:00,500 To have normal status, you must have recognised boundaries, which is not the case. 528 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,410 It's just not the case. And so, I mean, it's again, it's not a punishment, 529 01:05:03,830 --> 01:05:13,750 it's just using diplomatic terms and there fully normalisation didn't exist before the before the 7th of October they were about to sign. 530 01:05:13,790 --> 01:05:14,120 I don't.