1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:04,470 As we have considered the political options following the Gaza war. 2 00:00:07,610 --> 00:00:17,089 There has been so much of a focus on recognition of Palestine and the two state solution that there has 3 00:00:17,090 --> 00:00:24,200 been a general draw of the relevance of the conversation about an idea which until the 7th of October, 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:33,290 I would say has been steadily gaining ground, which was the idea of establishing a binational state as the only justice sustainable 5 00:00:33,290 --> 00:00:38,599 solution in which Israelis and Palestinians and anyone else for that matter, 6 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,170 would live with equal rights within the boundaries of an undivided state. 7 00:00:42,980 --> 00:00:53,570 And this has been one idea that has found tremendous traction among certain circles and been widely criticised by other circles as not feasible. 8 00:00:55,790 --> 00:01:02,959 The question is whether it's still in the discussion today, but I thought it would be of great interest to us all. 9 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:09,980 And by your turn out tonight you're proving this point to revisit the question of the binational state. 10 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,409 There are bound to be jokes made at some point the evening about a typo that fit into our poster, 11 00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:20,390 which originally announced it to be the prospects for a bi polar state. 12 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,330 I promise that is one occasion which Freud would have had a picnic to bring back. 13 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:35,300 But we chose two people who have come to the question of the binational state from very different starting points. 14 00:01:38,030 --> 00:01:42,110 Both are united in a common project of reassessing Israeli history. 15 00:01:43,340 --> 00:01:49,040 The new historians each has a very independent voice, quite different from the other. 16 00:01:50,720 --> 00:02:00,410 I would describe Ilan Puppis approach to the binational state as one very much shaped by his own internationalist worldview, 17 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:11,510 in which he has been consistently anti nationalism of any stripe in pursuit of a more humane and juster solution, not just for Israel Palestine. 18 00:02:12,890 --> 00:02:18,709 So I would say it is a lifelong conviction of the internationalist Ilan Typekit for obvious name. 19 00:02:18,710 --> 00:02:26,030 I think it really is an evolution in his own political thinking that has followed the breakdown of the hopes of 20 00:02:26,030 --> 00:02:32,330 the Oslo Accords to try and resolve the differences between Israel and Palestine through a two state solution. 21 00:02:33,170 --> 00:02:37,700 But he was in recent years very firmly of the view that the scope for two states 22 00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:41,059 was now virtually by the settler movement and the infrastructure that has 23 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:45,440 been laid to provide for their needs and security by an Israeli state that never 24 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,660 really showed a commitment to a two state solution to make that a reality. 25 00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:58,670 And so by default, we are now in a situation of one state give given each of them 25 minutes. 26 00:02:58,820 --> 00:03:04,100 To address you, I am only going to let them know when they about 5 minutes left. 27 00:03:05,030 --> 00:03:08,690 I am going to keep my questions to a minimum because I know you're going to have so many of your own. 28 00:03:10,220 --> 00:03:15,980 All that remains is for me to ask you to give. Thunderously warm welcome to Avi, Shane and Ilan. 29 00:03:31,050 --> 00:03:40,910 One way to prepare for this talk, I went down to the Natural History Museum to look at the dodo, 30 00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:56,450 and the dodo was discovered by European sailors towards the end of the 16th century in the island of Mauritius in the Indian Ocean. 31 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:04,250 The last confirmed sighting of the dodo was in 1662. 32 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:20,450 Since then, he has been extinct. So when I arrived to the case with the dodo, I saw two French schoolgirls taking notes and I said to them, 33 00:04:20,450 --> 00:04:24,890 Had you heard of the dodo before you came here? And they said, Yes. 34 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:29,840 And I said, What do you call them in French? And they said, Said Dodo. 35 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:40,190 So I knew that the Oxford dodo has an internationally visible profile. 36 00:04:41,180 --> 00:04:49,040 But that's by the by. What is significant is that the dodo was a flightless bird. 37 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:53,720 Even when he was alive, he couldn't fly. It couldn't take off. 38 00:04:55,310 --> 00:05:01,630 And he must be wandering by now. What's the connection between the dodo and the film? 39 00:05:01,770 --> 00:05:07,370 This seminar series, which is political options after the Gaza War. 40 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:21,080 The connect, the link. The connection is that some years ago, Maggie Hassan recorded the debate in the Oxford Union and for Al-Jazeera. 41 00:05:22,010 --> 00:05:28,340 And he turned to me and he said, Professor Schley, is the two state solution still alive? 42 00:05:28,850 --> 00:05:33,290 And I said, No, it's dead. It's as dead as a note. 43 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:41,540 It's as dead as the Oxford dodo, whom I visit regularly in the Natural History Museum. 44 00:05:42,940 --> 00:05:54,110 So ever since then, in my eccentric mind, there's always been a link between the two state solution and the state of the Oxford dodo. 45 00:05:54,590 --> 00:06:02,420 So that's why I went to the Natural History Museum. And I went to the glass cabinet and I tried to talk to him. 46 00:06:02,780 --> 00:06:06,860 No answer. I pulled faces to make him laugh. 47 00:06:07,190 --> 00:06:11,390 No reaction. I talk gently from the glass. 48 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:18,860 Still no response to blunder and no response whatsoever. 49 00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:27,370 So it is my solemn duty to announce that the two state solution is as dead as the Oxford tentative. 50 00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:37,100 And this is my starting point that the two state solution is not viable. 51 00:06:39,410 --> 00:06:46,460 It has become fashionable in recent years to say that the two state solution is dead. 52 00:06:47,450 --> 00:06:51,530 I would argue that the two state solution was never born. 53 00:06:53,060 --> 00:06:54,830 But I would like to come back to that. 54 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:09,860 First, I want to say a few words about the new history, because we have with us Iran, who is a trailblazer, a trailblazer of the new history. 55 00:07:11,510 --> 00:07:16,100 And lest you think there is no connection between the two, 56 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:22,550 I suggest that there is a connection between the new history and the subject of our debate today. 57 00:07:23,090 --> 00:07:35,450 And that is the solution to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians depends on the character and the nature of the two entities. 58 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,700 And this is where the the new history is relevant. 59 00:07:42,110 --> 00:07:47,180 In 1984, Iran submitted the Dphil thesis. 60 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:50,689 He was a student of the Middle East centre, his two supervisors. 61 00:07:50,690 --> 00:08:02,060 So arbitrarily and logically he submitted a thesis on Britain and the Arab-Israeli conflict 1948 to 1961. 62 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:07,730 I was the external examiner because I was attending university at the time. 63 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:19,490 This was a radical revisionist thesis which stood the conventional wisdom on the Arab-Israeli conflict, only to in particular, 64 00:08:20,060 --> 00:08:28,970 it questioned the Zionist claim that towards the end of the British mandate in Palestine, with an end in sight to. 65 00:08:30,620 --> 00:08:40,940 Clients who invade Palestine upon expiry of the mandate in order to strangle the Jewish state at birth. 66 00:08:42,620 --> 00:08:53,300 Ilan Using British records, Israeli records, primary Arabic sources concluded that there was a case against Britain. 67 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:57,830 Is the Palestine mandate approach its inglorious end? 68 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:06,110 But it is not what the Zionists were saying. On the contrary, that Britain accepted the inevitable emergence of a Jewish state, 69 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:14,870 but Britain colluded with its ally, King Abdullah of Jordan, to abort the birth of a Palestinian state. 70 00:09:15,930 --> 00:09:21,770 All the ideas of the new history were present in one form or another. 71 00:09:21,950 --> 00:09:35,410 In that the field of the thesis I have probably supervised or examined more than 50 theses in my time. 72 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:44,000 But this thesis had the most profound impact on my intellectual trajectory. 73 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,980 It's what made me a new historian. 74 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:58,910 In 1988, three books were published one by one based on his thesis, one by Benny Morris, 75 00:09:58,910 --> 00:10:04,610 The Birth of a Palestinian Refugee Problem and Naval Collusion across the Jordan. 76 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:09,410 King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement and the Partition of Palestine. 77 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:18,430 The fourth book by singer Lapointe called The Birth of Peace will Withstand Reality and Soon. 78 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:24,710 Hoffler spent a year at Harvard, and Professor Rogen was his recent research assistant. 79 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:37,790 Between us, we launched a frontal attack on all the myths that have come to surround the birth of Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war. 80 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,940 The reaction in Israel was very hostile. Why were Israelis so angry? 81 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:56,480 And I think the answer is because the new history went to the core of Israel's perception of itself as a liberal, peace loving country. 82 00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:03,560 Although we all lumped together as the new historians politically, we had very different positions. 83 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:09,350 Debbie Morris was a Zionist, Ilan was an anti-Zionist. 84 00:11:09,830 --> 00:11:24,590 Ilan regarded Israel as a colonial project, which was not at any time legitimate within any borders, and I was in the middle between the two of them. 85 00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:36,890 I thought that Israel, within its 67 borders was in addition, the Egyptian, but the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green line was illegitimate. 86 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:47,150 So I was an advocate of the two state solution and I was a cheerleader for the Oslo Accord. 87 00:11:47,810 --> 00:11:53,450 And I may say that I received a lot of abuse for my views. 88 00:11:55,070 --> 00:12:01,460 My wife and daughter regarded me, denounced me as an apologist for the Israeli state. 89 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:16,970 But my views have changed over time, and I no longer make a distinction between Israel proper in the occupied territories. 90 00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:30,660 I see Israel as an aggressive settler colonial state is a violent, 91 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:43,170 ethno nationalist state that is becoming increasingly genocidal and enclosed and closely tied to American imperialism. 92 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:55,440 So after 40 years of research and reflection, I've ended up with even puppy wars in 1984. 93 00:13:00,570 --> 00:13:05,040 And now let me go back to the two state solution. 94 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:10,320 It's never been a realistic solution for two reasons. 95 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,880 One is because Israel is addicted to oil. 96 00:13:15,450 --> 00:13:19,470 You represent any mainstream of political opinions in Israel. 97 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:22,950 I'm so sorry, but you'll have to go. Got it. 98 00:13:23,220 --> 00:13:26,980 Thank you. What do you think? Survive about? 99 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:39,050 Olmert said Israel is addicted to occupation. 100 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:47,090 After 1967, Israel chose occupation over peace. 101 00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:53,930 Could we have more volume on that? We speak out as much as possible. Just a little closer to want to get you. 102 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:14,990 Israel chose occupation over peace, and Israel used peace negotiations as a smokescreen to advance its colonial project. 103 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:23,720 There was the so-called peace process, but the peace process was all process and no peace. 104 00:14:24,410 --> 00:14:30,950 It was a charade. It was worse than the charade because it gave these just the cowboys needed to 105 00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:37,340 pursue the aggressive Zionist colonial project in the occupied territories. 106 00:14:38,630 --> 00:14:44,540 The platform of the Likud for the 1977 election. 107 00:14:45,410 --> 00:14:52,040 Statehood for between the river and the sea, there will be only Jewish sovereignty. 108 00:14:53,570 --> 00:15:11,810 The In the Iran speech in 2009, Benjamin Netanyahu said that he would accept this armed Palestinian state under all sorts of restrictions. 109 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:17,450 It was the only time he mentioned the possibility of a Palestinian state. 110 00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:28,060 But his life's mission has been to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and the guidelines of his president gafni sake. 111 00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:38,240 Only Jews or Jews. Sorry, Jews have an exclusive right to self-determination in the entire land of Israel. 112 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:49,019 One of the reason why I argue that the two state solution was never born was because 113 00:15:49,020 --> 00:15:56,820 America never seriously pushed Israel into this into this kind of settlement. 114 00:15:59,270 --> 00:16:08,630 State solution is a convenient formula for American leaders and other Western leaders, but it's vacuous. 115 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,519 America used to pose as the honest broker, but it's not an honest broker. 116 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,210 It's a dishonest broker because of its partiality to Israel. 117 00:16:20,810 --> 00:16:26,810 It's more of as the Israelis lawyer than is an honest broker. 118 00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:32,720 America uses military aid and diplomatic protection. 119 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:43,440 America has used the veto in the Security Council 46 times to defeat resolutions that were not to Israel's liking during the current war. 120 00:16:43,460 --> 00:16:53,210 America defeated one resolution of the Security Council, which is supported by 13 members, with only Britain abstaining. 121 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,830 So America alone defeated a cease fire resolution, which we could have banned. 122 00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:08,270 And now Algeria is about to present another resolution for a ceasefire, and America has already indicated it's likely to veto it. 123 00:17:09,290 --> 00:17:19,130 Joe Biden has been in power for three and a half years and we didn't hear a peep out of him about a two state solution or indeed any solution. 124 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:32,330 He was perfectly content with Israel continuing as a colonial overlord, and Biden supplies his Israel with munitions and arms. 125 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:37,970 And then he complains that Israel makes excessive use of these arms. 126 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,880 He's going to give a two state solution is to impose the Palestinian Authority 127 00:17:44,420 --> 00:17:51,890 on Gaza and have some sort of a few Bantustans that would amount to a state. 128 00:17:52,250 --> 00:18:01,760 It would be nothing. But maybe this is in the worse imperialist tradition of imposing on the local populations. 129 00:18:02,210 --> 00:18:08,750 What is the solution in period solutions that completely ignore the rights and aspirations? 130 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:23,480 Surely the people of Gaza and of the West must be left to choose their own government when this ghastly all comes together. 131 00:18:23,660 --> 00:18:35,300 The only two alternatives for the day after one is BBC Alternative and BBC alternative 132 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:44,810 for the aftermath of this war is that everything remains the same on the West Bank, 133 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,660 with Israel enjoying complicit people in the Palestinian Authority, 134 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:58,490 weak Palestinian and discredited the Palestinian Authority, continuing to act as the subcontractor for Israeli security. 135 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:12,320 Permanent Israeli security control over Gaza, limited self-government by the people of Gaza, provided they are not hostile to Israel. 136 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,700 I doubt that by the end that by the time Bebe is finished, 137 00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:24,860 there will be anyone in Gaza who is not hostile to Israel and no return of the 138 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:31,550 Palestinian Authority to Gaza because it would be a unified Palestinian leadership 139 00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:38,230 which would strengthen the claim that the call for the Palestinian statehood 140 00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:46,760 and definitely a no and absolute no to any notion of Palestinian statehood. 141 00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:58,470 This is unacceptable. The other alternative is a very national state. 142 00:20:01,110 --> 00:20:11,640 And the title of this seminar is Is the Binational State Possible after the 7th of October? 143 00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:17,660 And the answer to this question is no. 144 00:20:18,290 --> 00:20:26,540 Because of the opposition from Zionists and settler colonialism backed by American imperialism. 145 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:35,390 But a bi national state is the only democratic solution to this conflict. 146 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:53,630 I therefore advocate today one democratic state from the river to the sea with equal rights for all citizens, regardless of religion and ethnicity. 147 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,490 And I am not talking about what is politically possible. 148 00:20:59,090 --> 00:21:02,600 I'm talking about morality and international law. 149 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:13,670 And on 99% of the issues in dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, international law is on the side of the Palestinians. 150 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,800 Now, much work has been done on the one state solution. 151 00:21:26,290 --> 00:21:30,550 Ali Abunimah, rather commie Iran. 152 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:43,930 Jeff Halper in Israel, Jeff Harper, the director of the Israeli and the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions. 153 00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:55,330 And he and Palestinians have formed a group which is called the One Democratic State Campaign here in Britain. 154 00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:01,300 There is an affiliated group called and One Democratic State initiative. 155 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:13,480 For me, the key to any solution is equality, political equality for all people within this entity. 156 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:28,190 The core of this solution for me is not peace, but it's equality. 157 00:22:29,660 --> 00:22:37,760 The other essential requirement is that the state would be secular. 158 00:22:38,330 --> 00:22:44,450 In other words, that religious affiliation would not affect in any way. 159 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:48,440 For better or worse, the rights of each individual. 160 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:58,520 In other words, my one state solution is the antithesis of the Zionist colonial project, 161 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:04,460 and the impulse for change is not going to come from within Israel. 162 00:23:07,860 --> 00:23:12,540 Israel would have to be coerced into accepting this outcome. 163 00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:25,320 It's clear that this noble vision will not be possible after immediately after the guns fall silent in Gaza. 164 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:34,260 Does it have any chance of realisation in the longer term at any point in the future? 165 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,870 I don't know the answer to that, 166 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:48,420 but I mean hope my experience as an Arab Jew leads me to believe that antagonism between Muslims and Jews is not inevitable. 167 00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:51,210 It is not an inescapable is not preordained. 168 00:23:52,860 --> 00:24:01,740 I grew up as a boy in Baghdad, and my fight for my family in the Muslim Jewish coexistence was not a remote dream. 169 00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:06,450 It was the everyday reality and I would like to recreate that. 170 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:17,820 And this experience has enabled me to seek out of the box to think about a better future for our region, for everybody. 171 00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:30,510 So I live in hope. And hope is one previous Israeli speech speakers in the seminar said Hope is a desire to achieve something, 172 00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:39,930 to achieve what you know is probably not achievable, but the struggle to achieve it is energising. 173 00:24:40,170 --> 00:25:00,570 Thank you for listening. It's great to be here and to see so many people. 174 00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:03,900 Thank you, Harvey, for your kind references. 175 00:25:06,220 --> 00:25:18,060 It's reminded me that it was 40 years ago when we just started, and now I understand why I decided to retire to keep it simple. 176 00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:30,210 And that was really a long time ago. I would like in my contribution to distinguish between what I think is an unfolding reality, 177 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:40,770 not just since the 7th of October, but actually from the beginning of this century, and talk about this unfolding reality. 178 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:50,819 As a scholar, as as an academic, not as a political activist or as someone who is part of that story, 179 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:56,850 but really share with you certain observations about a certain process that I 180 00:25:56,850 --> 00:26:02,909 think is taking place and is very relevant to the topic not only of this meeting, 181 00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:12,870 but of your serious all together and distinguished between that observation and shared with you, 182 00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:20,760 as Abbie did, some ideas about what I would have liked to unfold in the future. 183 00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:26,310 So the difference between examining a reality, whether you like it or not, 184 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:34,110 and talking about the reality you would have liked to to unfold, I think is very important in these discussions. 185 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:43,020 And the kind of reality that I think is unfolding is is difficult to to to articulate 186 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:48,960 because these are trends or indicators of something bigger that is going to happen. 187 00:26:50,160 --> 00:27:00,120 But I think that there has matured to such an extent that they feel secure enough certain to talk about, 188 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:08,639 maybe even predict, if you want, how they will fused together into very monumental, 189 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,230 I think, a transformation in the reality in Israel Palestine, 190 00:27:13,620 --> 00:27:18,330 where it wouldn't matter that much whether we are for one state, two states or three states. 191 00:27:19,530 --> 00:27:25,390 And while my vision is not at all far from an obvious vision, in fact, 192 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:32,309 I certainly would I would articulate it probably in the same way of the I think it's important 193 00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:42,210 to look at the trends that or indicators that in my mind are bringing a certain epoch, 194 00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:46,800 certain period in the history of modern Palestine to an end. 195 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:56,820 The Zionist hysteria, I think we are witnessing a very clear indication to the beginning of the end of the Zionist project. 196 00:27:57,450 --> 00:27:59,710 If you want the end of Israel as we know it, 197 00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:15,209 the end of the Zionist project and the events of the 7th of October only accelerated and accentuate these developments or trends that, 198 00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:22,980 as I mentioned, had already started at the beginning of the this century, 199 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:40,290 and maybe some of them even before the beginning of this century, of the analysis of such an idea that an epoch or a certain period comes to an end, 200 00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:48,180 of course, raises also the question of what would replace the Zionist project in Palestine. 201 00:28:49,650 --> 00:28:57,880 But I think it's very important to convince people that this is not and believe me, I may differ from them. 202 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:04,050 This is not about the wishful thinking and talking about a certain vision that we would 203 00:29:04,050 --> 00:29:08,910 have liked to have happen but we don't think will happen in our lifetime and so on. 204 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:21,510 But rather, as an historian, I believe that actually these disintegration and collapses of ideological regimes usually happen faster than we think. 205 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:28,440 It's like a war that has a correct cracks in it, and you warn people that the cracks of quite wide. 206 00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:33,030 But when the cracks would be wide enough, the world would suddenly collapse. 207 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:41,010 Look at the way people try to understand when and if, if and when the Soviet Union would come to an end. 208 00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:45,780 If and when would the Iranian Shah regime come to an end? 209 00:29:46,020 --> 00:29:49,440 If and when would apartheid South Africa come to an end? 210 00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:50,240 And you. 211 00:29:50,350 --> 00:30:00,950 And see, it's almost like you have something in a slow motion, slow movement, and then suddenly nobody is really fully prepared when it happens. 212 00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:06,490 And I really believe that we should be taking this into account, especially, I think, 213 00:30:06,490 --> 00:30:14,590 the Palestinian national movement has to take it into account because it would be required to have a structure and a 214 00:30:14,590 --> 00:30:24,640 consensus and the unity that it does not possess today in order to fill the vacuum that such a collapse would leave behind. 215 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:31,960 So it's very important to strategize and it's very difficult to strategize when you are genocidal in Gaza, 216 00:30:32,350 --> 00:30:40,240 when you are oppressed in the West Bank, when you are discriminated against as citizens of Israel, and when you are refugees dwelling in a camp, 217 00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:48,040 but nonetheless you don't have any other option and you have to be ready because if you are not ready any, 218 00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:52,480 as Paul Marks told us, any vacuum is going to be filled in, 219 00:30:52,510 --> 00:31:02,190 not necessarily by positive forces and not necessarily by very dominant forces, which we would be a perpetuated collective fear for a very long time. 220 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:09,459 So I think this is an important discussion to ask whether one likes the idea that the Zionist project is come to an end, 221 00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:13,510 whether one dreads the idea of a design. This project comes to an end. 222 00:31:13,510 --> 00:31:21,910 It doesn't matter. You have to understand that this is now the name of the game and therefore. 223 00:31:22,330 --> 00:31:30,250 And with this I agree with Avi. Not only the two state solution is that the whole discourse of the American foreign policy sounds so anachronistic. 224 00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:40,690 The Biden administration is is really suffocating and and trying to reignite a dead process. 225 00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:49,330 It's like trying to ignite a dead car without fuel and without electricity and hoping somehow that it would move. 226 00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:58,750 This is shows us that the political elites, especially in the global north, that are involved in the case of Palestine, 227 00:31:59,290 --> 00:32:08,859 are using a vocabulary and the set of presumptions and assumptions that are totally irrelevant to the reality on the ground. 228 00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:17,080 And at least I'm optimistic about a certain different discussion in the future because the civil society 229 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:22,480 or those in the civil societies in the global north which are involved in the question of Palestine, 230 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:32,010 definitely use a different look and definitely have a different agenda than the diplomats or the politicians who are involved generally or cynically. 231 00:32:32,030 --> 00:32:36,760 Doesn't matter in the so-called peace process. 232 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,420 In many ways, I don't think it could have been otherwise. 233 00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:47,409 And I'm saying it as someone who is fully aware that the Zionist movement salvaged the lives of Jews, 234 00:32:47,410 --> 00:32:56,139 including of my parents, and unfortunately, as they later would say, put it in his seminal work, 235 00:32:56,140 --> 00:33:05,440 the Question of Palestine, the salvage operation of Jews and their protection against antisemitism very quickly 236 00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:11,480 turned into what he called at the time a project of accumulation and displacement. 237 00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:16,450 The Zionist wanted to accumulate land, immigration, 238 00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:25,419 power and displace with this the power of that accumulation, displace the indigenous people of Palestine. 239 00:33:25,420 --> 00:33:31,900 And this began very early on and very early on was an organic essential part of the Zionist project. 240 00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:37,780 Now, maybe in the 16 or 17 century, such a project would have succeeded, 241 00:33:38,590 --> 00:33:49,389 maybe in a different era where such actions of displacement or even genocide were tolerated by the 242 00:33:49,390 --> 00:33:58,300 Western society and were not properly defeated by the indigenous people of the Americas or Australia, 243 00:33:58,430 --> 00:34:05,920 New Zealand. Maybe if that was the people, that was the era, Zionism would have maybe thrived. 244 00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:12,880 But in the late 19th century and during the 20th century, in the 21st century, 245 00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:23,739 the idea that you can somehow build a Jewish national homeland against the will of millions of people, and that despite the fact that you have extent, 246 00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:30,370 so many of them, so many of them are still part of the homeland and a part of the resistance movement, 247 00:34:30,850 --> 00:34:38,500 and you will need all the time to impose your will on them by force, by violence, by ethnic cleansing. 248 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,370 And as we have seen recently, also by genocidal policies. 249 00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:50,170 This is not going to work. This is not that we mean, by the way, that this is something that is going to unfold. 250 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,230 Tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. 251 00:34:52,620 --> 00:35:01,350 Unfortunately, the beginning of an end can be a long historical period, but we are beginning to see the indication that this is happening. 252 00:35:01,770 --> 00:35:10,110 And this is a very worrying moment, by the way, because as we know from the regime, such as the apartheid regime in South Africa and others, 253 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:21,930 when they are under the danger of disintegrating or disappearing, they become particularly ruthless and violent and fierce. 254 00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:31,979 And I think that what we are going to see, unfortunately in this this I don't think, overpromising you that you don't know, but I'm very, 255 00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:36,510 very fearful about the next year or two as far as the Israeli policies, 256 00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:45,390 not only towards the Palestinians in Gaza, but towards those in the West Bank, in Jerusalem and inside Israel. 257 00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:49,190 This is not going to change in any dramatic way. 258 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,650 In fact, I'm afraid this is going to be far, far worse. 259 00:35:53,220 --> 00:36:03,960 But I do see the maturation of the processes which I enumerate here as a kind of a light in the end of the tunnel. 260 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,500 If you want the dawn after a very dark night. 261 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:16,470 So I'm not trying to say that what we are seeing now is something that we all should oppose in every way possible. 262 00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:27,570 But I'm just saying that if we for a moment can see beyond the the the now and the tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, 263 00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:35,310 I do think that we are seeing something dramatic change in my mind for the positive, 264 00:36:36,270 --> 00:36:40,680 for a better reality, for a better future for both Jews and Arabs. 265 00:36:41,220 --> 00:36:50,370 But I know that a lot of people would disagree with this sentiment, but I hope at least that they would agree that these are realistic. 266 00:36:52,140 --> 00:36:58,140 This is a realistic analysis of the process that is going on. 267 00:36:58,350 --> 00:37:01,680 So let me talk about these invitation. 268 00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:12,060 I think I have altogether seven, but I'm sure there will have time for that soon to come. 269 00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:15,090 Just cinema near you who spoke about this? 270 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,059 The first process is the implosion of the Israeli society. 271 00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:28,740 From what I think many of you are aware that before the 7th of October, Israel was undergoing a civil war, 272 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:33,870 a proper civil war, not in the sense of people were shooting at each other, 273 00:37:34,350 --> 00:37:39,630 but it did create two societies that had very, very little in common, 274 00:37:40,620 --> 00:37:51,030 and they were willing to either go to demonstrations in the streets, but also to totally defame and negate the other side. 275 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:57,450 I do not remember any time in the history of Israel where these two communities 276 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:06,780 felt so alien towards one another talking on them in terms of the enemy, 277 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,970 the traitors, blaming each other for all that is happening. 278 00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:17,880 For a moment they forgot to blame the Palestinians, which they usually do, and they blamed each other. 279 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:27,750 Now, I think that you can describe it as what I said in one of my articles, is the struggle between the state of Israel and the state of Judea. 280 00:38:29,010 --> 00:38:32,670 The state of Judea is the state of settlement of the settlers in the West Bank. 281 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,560 It's first it looked like a marginal phenomenon in Israeli politics. 282 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:43,799 But not only did it grow in numbers, but 700,000 to settlers in the West Bank, 283 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:50,220 though it did not only grow in number, they became a force to reckon with inside this. 284 00:38:51,390 --> 00:39:01,470 And a lot of the young Israelis lean towards the world of these messianic Zionist Jews who are no more a marginal force. 285 00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:07,980 Not only this is proven by their prominent position in the government, 286 00:39:08,610 --> 00:39:16,890 but far more important is their prominent position in the Army, in the Secret Service, in the civil service. 287 00:39:17,340 --> 00:39:20,850 They are beginning to control Israel and the state of Israel. 288 00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:28,709 You can call it the state of Tel Aviv. If you want this idea that you can still have an apartheid state, but nonetheless pluralistic, 289 00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:32,250 that respect a lot of rights apart from the Palestinian rights, 290 00:39:32,970 --> 00:39:39,600 the tolerates an occupation and believes or tries to convince itself that this is temporary. 291 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:45,570 But all in all, that they have built a society that can be part of the community of civilised nation, 292 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,230 this kind of Israel that still exists and is still fighting. 293 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:53,890 For its life is this Lucy is losing. 294 00:39:53,890 --> 00:40:01,570 And and ironically, you would have thought that the events of the 7th of October would give it some impetus 295 00:40:02,290 --> 00:40:07,630 that its way of looking at reality would sound more realistic than the messianic one. 296 00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:13,570 But judging by all the service that we have and I don't I didn't want the service to know it, 297 00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:20,980 the young soldiers that come back and the reserve soldiers that a genocide of the Palestinians in 298 00:40:20,980 --> 00:40:27,730 Gaza are far more citizens of the state of Judea than there are citizens of the state of Israel. 299 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,870 And and the state of Judea that would take over from the state of Israel is not a viable political project. 300 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:43,630 The second, no less important process is the economic one must in macroeconomic terms. 301 00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:55,960 Israel is doing very well. If you look at the record of Israel in macroeconomic terms, that is the GDP and its performance during the crisis of 2008, 302 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:04,030 during the crises of the of COVID 19, it looks like a very viable and vibrant economy. 303 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,250 But if you look at micro economy, 304 00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:15,730 you can see that this is not working with the gap between the haves and the have nots have never been as wide as it is now. 305 00:41:16,330 --> 00:41:24,460 The number of Israelis that joined the the people under the poverty line is huge and it grows exponentially. 306 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:37,479 20% of the Israelis pay 80% of the texts, and many of them already before the 7th of October began to dislocate or relocate, 307 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,090 rather themselves and their capital outside of Israel. 308 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:47,290 They stopped for a while because they have this DNA in them, which I recognise as an Israeli. 309 00:41:47,290 --> 00:41:52,660 When there is a war suddenly to come back to the warm embrace of the of the nation. 310 00:41:53,590 --> 00:41:56,800 But the money is again on the way out with the people. 311 00:41:56,890 --> 00:42:06,670 And remember, these are people from European origin, the European passport with professions that can easily be reignited elsewhere. 312 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:17,929 The third indicator is the total failure of the army to defend its citizens and the total failure of the government to provide basic. 313 00:42:17,930 --> 00:42:19,160 Until this very moment, 314 00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:30,290 the Israeli government is unable to provide the basic necessary services for the people whose families were killed, abducted, wounded. 315 00:42:30,730 --> 00:42:41,300 Also, the 250,000 or so people who were dislocated either from the south or from the north, the government is non-existent. 316 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:47,600 The civil society there is doing its best to provide and it does provide. 317 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,060 So that's not a very good indicator for a viable state. 318 00:42:52,070 --> 00:42:56,810 In fact, this is usually indicated in the literature, at least for a failed state, 319 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:06,379 when the when the regime or the government does not provide for the citizens and the civil society takes over, which sounds very nice and voluntary. 320 00:43:06,380 --> 00:43:15,920 This means that the state is not functioning and the Israeli state is not going to function better in the future given the quality of its politicians. 321 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:23,010 And since the force indicator is the discourse about the future, and I think that's very important. 322 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,020 I'm not saying that the that's the word is mightier than the sword. 323 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:36,410 The keyboard is mightier than the sword. I do realise that everything that is said is as important as everything that is being done, 324 00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:44,930 but I think discourses are important and the basic discourse of the Israeli political system, the one we will see in the next Israeli elections. 325 00:43:45,470 --> 00:43:51,020 It's quite incredible. And I've looked for a different historical example and couldn't find it. 326 00:43:52,070 --> 00:44:01,910 You have, from left to right Israeli politicians, gurus, pundits, intellectuals talking about the future in only one way. 327 00:44:02,750 --> 00:44:08,330 Our vision for the future is 50 years of war, bloodshed, violence. 328 00:44:09,650 --> 00:44:14,420 Nobody likes us from the north. They will always try to attack us. 329 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:21,950 The Palestinians will always try to kill us. We might have a normalisation agreement with Saudi Arabia, 330 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:33,350 but this is not going to in any way downsize the army or our need all the time, every few years to be involved in the bloody conflict. 331 00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:40,309 Now, in the 21st century, for a certain younger generation, even the the one like in Israel, 332 00:44:40,310 --> 00:44:44,750 which is very thoroughly indoctrinated from cradle to grave, 333 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,790 even for that generation, 334 00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:59,810 this vision is quite frightening and is not very promising and does not necessarily create a sense of steadfastness towards the future. 335 00:45:00,830 --> 00:45:06,200 This is not a discourse are going to hear from young people today in Israel because of what they call the war, 336 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:12,890 but it will eventually, eventually affect a younger generation with no prospect. 337 00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:20,599 Just apart from the prospect of what is happening now in Gaza, not only of Gaza, from the Israeli perspective, 338 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,800 not of what's happening to the Palestinians, what happens to the young Israelis. 339 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:38,090 The fifth indicators is if I do this in the right kind of formula, I would say is the move in the BDS idea from the BND to this liquid state. 340 00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:44,180 What I mean by this, as you probably know, the BDS campaign is the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign. 341 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:51,679 That is an informal campaign. It's not a formal campaign, and it is slated two different kinds of actions. 342 00:45:51,680 --> 00:46:03,169 It doesn't have the same kind of impact or the same kind of nature everywhere, but the whole idea is the B and D, if you want the boycott divestment, 343 00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:11,680 is that the civil society this that is disappointed by the lack of action by the governments is involved in boycotting and 344 00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:19,700 divestment from Israel and hoping that this is a pressure that eventually would bring a change to the reality on the ground. 345 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:23,510 And this hasn't happened yet. The BMD is not enough, it's very clear. 346 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:30,950 But you can begin, I think, to see the move towards the SC, towards the sanction it began. 347 00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:34,460 And I think as much as many of us maybe like me, 348 00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:41,569 were disappointed a bit with the ruling of the ICJ on Gaza that it did not order an immediate ceasefire, 349 00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:47,390 but Israel amounts to to prove that it doesn't genocide the people in Gaza. 350 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,460 Nonetheless, this is a landmark. 351 00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:59,780 This is an important landmark because institutions such as the ICJ and the ICC are the bridge between the society and the government. 352 00:47:00,590 --> 00:47:06,890 And it's very possible that the young people who marched in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions around the world. 353 00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:13,540 The global north and the global South for Israel could be the politicians of tomorrow, of the future. 354 00:47:13,930 --> 00:47:21,579 So I would I would like to say that there are indicators in the way some politicians in some countries, 355 00:47:21,580 --> 00:47:30,100 definitely in the Global South, but also in the global north, are talking that we are not that far from sanctions on Israel. 356 00:47:30,370 --> 00:47:44,980 And the beginning was the bedroom assumption on the spare parts for the F-35 and in China's refusal to continue to provide the Israelis. 357 00:47:45,310 --> 00:47:49,270 Another element which is important for the for the missile. 358 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:59,080 I don't want to bother you with military technicalities, but it is more in the S department than the being. 359 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,430 The sixth indicator is the change in the Jewish communities around the world, 360 00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:07,720 especially in the United States, especially among the younger generation of Jews. 361 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:12,070 The fact that the only important lobby now for Israel in the United States, 362 00:48:12,070 --> 00:48:17,110 the important one, are the Christian Zionists, is a very important development. 363 00:48:18,190 --> 00:48:30,100 You cannot base the international legitimacy of the Jewish state just on the theological and eschatological vision of Christian Zionists, 364 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:36,160 who still believe that the state of Israel is the proof that Jesus Christ started that for 1000 years or less. 365 00:48:36,670 --> 00:48:44,830 This works definitely for some Americans, no doubt, and some people even in Britain and definitely in Scandinavia. 366 00:48:45,130 --> 00:48:53,440 But this is not a pillar on which you can build the kind of legitimacy that Israel 367 00:48:53,440 --> 00:49:01,450 enjoyed when Jewish communities were fully recruited as ambassadors or embassies. 368 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:06,340 For Israel, it's the it's not only the question anymore. 369 00:49:06,340 --> 00:49:11,950 We always thought that this would happen because people would feel embarrassed about the question, 370 00:49:11,950 --> 00:49:16,850 especially in the United States, of the dual loyalty. It's not anymore the question of dual. 371 00:49:17,770 --> 00:49:24,700 It's actually a reassertion of young Jews of what they understood Judaism to be and what 372 00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:30,250 they understand Judaism to be forces them to totally be against Israel themselves. 373 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,209 And this is something that nobody could have predicted would happen before. 374 00:49:34,210 --> 00:49:39,880 But the Israelis are responsible for it themselves with the policies that they implemented on the ground. 375 00:49:40,060 --> 00:49:46,300 But this is an important process. And the last one is what's happening on the Palestinian side. 376 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:59,080 Now, it's very clear that the present generation of Palestinian politicians and activists of a certain gender and age, 377 00:49:59,140 --> 00:50:06,670 if you want, are unable to unite around a vision, around the plan, even around a strategy. 378 00:50:07,630 --> 00:50:12,040 The classical organisations of the liberation movement are not functioning. 379 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,210 And partly it is because of the objective fragmentation of the Palestinians. 380 00:50:16,540 --> 00:50:18,579 So different groups by the by Zionism, 381 00:50:18,580 --> 00:50:25,990 but also the Palestinians have an interest in themselves and should criticise them for the lack of of doing this, 382 00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:30,400 even if there are very difficult objective circumstances that explain that. 383 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:37,030 But if you look if you remember that the Palestinian society is the youngest in the world, probably one of the youngest, 384 00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:43,269 if not the youngest then and you look at the way the younger Palestinian activists 385 00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:48,670 and groups are coordinating between themselves and the language that they use, 386 00:50:49,150 --> 00:50:59,080 you can see a far more consensual Palestinian voice and an ability to bridge over geographical barriers first, 387 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,490 because of the Internet, of course, which the young, older generation Palestinians didn't have. 388 00:51:03,940 --> 00:51:09,669 But also because of a certain worldview that is shared, 389 00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:15,980 whether you are in a refugee camp in Lebanon or you are living in Detroit, in the United States. 390 00:51:16,450 --> 00:51:26,320 And I think that although they have not yet found their organisation the way of doing it, namely, do they go into the PLO and renovate the PLO? 391 00:51:26,770 --> 00:51:29,660 Do they build a different kind of Palestinian organisation? 392 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:36,009 It's very clear that the next be all of the renewed pillar would have to include Hamas and Islamic Jihad. 393 00:51:36,010 --> 00:51:43,120 And I know this is recorded and I'm not violating the British designation of the Hamas, for goodness sakes. 394 00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:47,860 Okay. Okay. Well, not the don't worry. And all that oxygen is in trouble. 395 00:51:48,250 --> 00:51:55,690 I'm just saying that the Hamas and Islamic Jihad will have to be part of the next PLO as a second terrorist. 396 00:51:57,850 --> 00:52:04,930 Oh, no, this would have to happen. And this is going to it not for this generation, but for the next generation. 397 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:13,550 People. I don't know how. People do understand that people not only in Palestine, in the eastern Mediterranean, 398 00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:19,490 and not that worried about the risk between secular people and religious people. 399 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,860 That from here may sound like a huge kind of clash of civilisation. 400 00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:28,890 Alan Huntington No, no, People are far more relaxed. 401 00:52:28,910 --> 00:52:38,990 I was a member of the Communist Party and half of our members of the Politburo went five times to prayer during the meetings and we got used to it. 402 00:52:39,230 --> 00:52:44,950 We were totally useless and we even had the rabbi, the great Politburo of the Communist Party. 403 00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:52,700 We don't take these things neither things, neither side of the religion of communism or the religion of Islamism. 404 00:52:52,700 --> 00:53:03,440 Seriously. But but it's part of you know, it's part of an ecumenical framework that enable us to live together and respect each other, 405 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:12,650 sensitivities and importance. And I do think that the younger generation represent this in a fine in this way. 406 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:22,220 Finally, let me say this. I want to repeat just one point, which I think is really, really important here. 407 00:53:23,540 --> 00:53:31,819 If if I'm even right about some of these processes, if not all of them, if the disintegration, 408 00:53:31,820 --> 00:53:39,800 the weaknesses, the weaknesses of Israel, the deficiencies are going to accelerate, 409 00:53:40,070 --> 00:53:51,830 increase in the future, they raise or they force many of us to focus not only on whether we want to buy a national state or the two states, 410 00:53:52,310 --> 00:54:02,180 but all certain question. Now is the time to answer, to answer them, at least in the academia, or move the activist. 411 00:54:02,180 --> 00:54:14,180 Even if these answers are not yet translated into, you know, the the program of the new Palestinian National Movement or organisation, for example, 412 00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:20,209 I'll give you one example which is now beginning to emerge about the Palestinian 413 00:54:20,210 --> 00:54:27,800 citizens in Israel only for 48 hours can they still play on both political arenas. 414 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:33,650 Can they still be part of the Israeli political system and part of the Palestinian system that's quite weak. 415 00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:37,350 That's. Marwan Bishara That's a week we will talk about this, Talk about that. 416 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,020 Very good. So I think I think I just raise it. There's a question, I'm not going to answer it. 417 00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:50,900 I think they have to make the decision. This bipolar ism of the 48 Arabs cannot continue and will not continue. 418 00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:55,220 And this will have a huge impact on the Palestinian. One second. 419 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:04,190 Now is the time to say within a one state solution, what would be the fate of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank? 420 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:10,750 We cannot delay this conversation because it doesn't fit too well with a one state solution. 421 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,290 But we have to talk about we have to find a way of of doing this. 422 00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:18,740 What will be the collective Jewish identity? 423 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:30,830 It's time to talk about it. Talking about binational state kind of mesmerises us and does not allow us to face something that we will have to face. 424 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:37,660 That Zionism has failed to try to turn Judaism from a religion to nationals. 425 00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:43,970 It doesn't work. Is there any Jewish national identity that is not Zionist? 426 00:55:44,930 --> 00:55:49,040 Can there be a Jewish national identity in Palestine that is not Zionist? 427 00:55:49,970 --> 00:55:53,720 Because if it is Zionist then you don't have to talk about the one state solution. 428 00:55:54,620 --> 00:55:59,209 So I think it's time to think about a Jewish collective identity in the way the way 429 00:55:59,210 --> 00:56:03,590 to think about some other ethno cultural identities in the Eastern Mediterranean. 430 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:10,069 And that brings me to the fact that we should start and understand that not all the models for the 431 00:56:10,070 --> 00:56:18,560 future of Palestine are in the Western supermarket of ideas that must read the late Ottoman period. 432 00:56:19,310 --> 00:56:26,090 They have political examples that can inspire us not only to undo Zionism, 433 00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:32,060 but to undo the colonial structure that was imposed on the mushroom after the First World War. 434 00:56:32,750 --> 00:56:42,770 We need to go back and study and do many of these studies, and Middle Eastern studies do not want to learn Ottoman Turkish, 435 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,280 but it's important to go back to the Ottoman period, 436 00:56:46,580 --> 00:56:54,709 to go to this live and let live structure without idealising or romanticising the regimes of the Sultans. 437 00:56:54,710 --> 00:57:00,740 But to understand the balance between collective identities, state identities, 438 00:57:00,860 --> 00:57:06,680 supra, state identities, all these are not in the West fairly and Western idea. 439 00:57:06,750 --> 00:57:12,030 Of the nation state. We need a different political structure for the Eastern Mediterranean. 440 00:57:12,540 --> 00:57:16,889 The western one is not working, and I don't have to be a prophet about it. 441 00:57:16,890 --> 00:57:21,000 Just look at Syria, Europe, and you understand them, unfortunately. 442 00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:26,040 And now Palestine and Israel. So all of this brings me to my final sentence. 443 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:37,250 And this is that that whether we like the idea that Israel comes to an end, whether we drive the idea and the gentleman who left probably does. 444 00:57:39,030 --> 00:57:43,260 No, I'm serious. I'm serious. You're back. I'm glad we got that question. 445 00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:50,590 That's very good. I'm eagerly waiting for the weather. 446 00:57:50,910 --> 00:57:58,410 This is the question we have to ask because this project is not working and we all, I think, 447 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:06,180 share a wish to see if to replace it, something that would work for as many people as possible. 448 00:58:06,660 --> 00:58:13,320 I believe it's possible. We are not just onlookers, but we are also contributors to a different reality. 449 00:58:13,380 --> 00:58:13,770 Thank you.