1 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:13,890 Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to the new Centre for Tuesday night's Seminar, 2 00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:19,110 exploring Israel's congratulations of at least 1948 to 2020. 3 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:28,920 And to address this topic, we are so delighted to be Professor Eddie today of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, 4 00:00:29,310 --> 00:00:37,380 and he is the founder and full professor in the history of the Muslim Peoples in the Department of Islamic Studies at the university, 5 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:46,109 where he's served in various honorary capacities chairing this department as president of the Middle East and Islamic Studies Association, 6 00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:52,560 Israel and as a board member of the team, the Israeli Institute for Regional Foreign Policies. 7 00:00:53,460 --> 00:01:02,160 These honours fall on the shoulders of Professor Cody as a reflection of his demonstrated authority in a wide range of subjects. 8 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:10,050 He has authored more than 14 books, more than 80 academic articles in Hebrew and Arabic and in English. 9 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:16,440 His most recent book, we see, I believe we see on the screen the Hebrew language. 10 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:25,110 Readers of the audience will know better than I is Israel's secret relations with states Minorities in the Middle East between 1948 2020, 11 00:01:25,410 --> 00:01:30,120 published in 2022 and English edition is forthcoming. 12 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:35,170 Yes, it's taken a while to make this happen. Right? I'm glad you finally got there. 13 00:01:35,790 --> 00:01:39,780 The I invite you to the podium to give us your reaction. Join me in welcoming professor and. 14 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,490 Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. 15 00:01:50,030 --> 00:01:55,550 You know, let let me stop and say, as the famous comedian Bush remarks. 16 00:01:55,940 --> 00:02:00,350 He said the before I speak, I have something important to say. 17 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:04,550 So before I speak, before I start my lecture. 18 00:02:04,790 --> 00:02:15,260 First of all, I want to thank you, Gene. It's kind of a closure of a circle because I was spending my selection and we spent a day to see. 19 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:22,130 Three years ago, I went to Miami, and then I was supposed to give a lecture on the same topic. 20 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,590 The book was not yet out. And then two things happened. 21 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:35,590 One false. And therefore, why not? And eventually I had to fly back home to control my life again, and we went back. 22 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,400 So obviously the lecture did not happen. 23 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000 And then the second thing that happened was the signing of the Holocaust. 24 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,940 And that was in the second half of 2020. 25 00:02:50,420 --> 00:03:01,250 And when that happened, my first reaction was, wow, I wish my book was a review, because in some way it was connected, as you've seen in my name. 26 00:03:02,060 --> 00:03:12,860 But then after reflection, I didn't understand that I wasn't very lucky that it was not at all because I managed to relate to that and 27 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:21,170 also to see that in many ways it was the consummation of a long process that I was talking in my book. 28 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,160 And eventually even let me change the title of the book. 29 00:03:26,180 --> 00:03:36,200 And you're saying to me, why? But then only some remarks, you know, in order to understand in general, the big picture. 30 00:03:36,620 --> 00:03:42,080 Now, finally, I want to say something about the picture before we stop. 31 00:03:42,380 --> 00:03:48,110 Now, this is a very famous picture in this light which shows the King Hussein and 32 00:03:48,110 --> 00:03:54,440 the prime minister being immediately after the signing of the peace agreement. 33 00:03:54,990 --> 00:04:01,350 How about this? Is Emanuel saying there father's house in the cupboard? 34 00:04:01,770 --> 00:04:06,720 And this is a very intimate moment and obviously it's a public moment. 35 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:10,980 However, you don't know. I mean, what is behind that? 36 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:22,559 This story and the story is that this is an indication of another incident that occurred between 1943 and the 37 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:30,330 correspondent of a deal to the home to about a period he was interviewing at the end of the naming of him. 38 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:44,240 You know, they started the interviews and both of them had a smoke filled and they had smoke and then people saying, get the cigarette of smoke up. 39 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:52,500 Well, you know, the gesture and that did move on, you know, became public and then, 40 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:57,090 I mean, saw them and they went they made you said, I want that picture, 41 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:03,680 although some people seem to not so and that I heard from some about Barry at her house and by the way, 42 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:11,580 and she has another picture of himself and she was saying, so this is this morning's story and all of that is behind the story. 43 00:05:12,030 --> 00:05:16,740 And the pizza, I wouldn't say secret, but, you know, not everyone knows. 44 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:29,990 Okay. So now we can go to business and and talk about what I have done, fanciful in terms of historiography, what I was trying to do. 45 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,700 I think that I myself am I know there are quite a few people here in the audience. 46 00:05:36,090 --> 00:05:45,900 They really came in and said, Faith, what I call the way looking for work in the British American Archive and myself included. 47 00:05:46,260 --> 00:05:53,790 And therefore, I mean, we obviously we pay an obvious attention to the documents that we find. 48 00:05:54,210 --> 00:06:01,260 Now look at this cool, very firm that says before really historians have a general tendency to pay too 49 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:07,379 much attention to the evidence to survive and to make to leave it alone for that. 50 00:06:07,380 --> 00:06:09,350 No intelligence can be found. 51 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:17,309 And we think they mention, first and foremost, because it's a written record, are so difficult to come by and get the facts. 52 00:06:17,310 --> 00:06:25,500 And so because so many things happen behind the scenes and we have no idea, think about them as the think about the Shabak. 53 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Think about our intelligence budget. 54 00:06:28,130 --> 00:06:38,430 If they're working all the time and doing phone things, Some of them are very significant and we know very few or not at all about what happened. 55 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:46,560 And it made me look at a different direction and trying to locate other things that I 56 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,780 myself have found quite a lot of what I thinking and know my thanks to the archives, 57 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,320 but really we are looking at something different. 58 00:06:55,770 --> 00:06:58,440 So it's secret. What are the sources? 59 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:06,599 So obviously the archival material is very important and here you have all of the, you know, my theory and so on. 60 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,400 So this includes something which is basically and always in use, 61 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:18,330 but beyond their belief in confidential documents like the weekly, I think that's what it is. 62 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:26,340 Sometimes they don't have enough appreciation to what they can find in this material. 63 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:38,549 Yeah. Now obviously it's a kind of coincidence because it depends on which you use and the information that is in there. 64 00:07:38,550 --> 00:07:43,440 It's not very much organised and so on, but if you are lucky you can find them. 65 00:07:43,770 --> 00:07:49,260 And I found quite a lot, especially about Israel's people's relation in the Gulf. 66 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:59,070 So that was really revealing. A lot of the immediate sources, the information leaked to the media at the time, 67 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:07,880 and it's always I find it is in and they're a great source of information for the Estonians. 68 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:12,660 Also Arabic sources, you know, the Arabic newspapers, for example. 69 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,710 I mean, in the past I used to work on that and I really appreciated that. 70 00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:24,090 But also here and I mainly talk about with the Israeli or the Western newspaper, 71 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:33,600 because at the time in the fifties and the sixties, the there were many leaks and in time below for goal.com. 72 00:08:34,050 --> 00:08:38,540 But when you look backward and you have a better perspective and more information, 73 00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:46,530 then you know, I mean, what was more truthful or what is more verified and so on. 74 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:49,950 So many things. Visionary for a source of information. 75 00:08:50,310 --> 00:08:54,390 The memoirs of people involved with the events obviously is always equal. 76 00:08:55,060 --> 00:08:59,110 And then the person that interviewed those people involved in the clandestine. 77 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:02,860 Now, that was a very meaningful source for me. 78 00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:10,510 I interviewed more than 100 people from defence, intelligence and foreign affairs and so on. 79 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:20,500 And that's I found very interesting because one thing that happens in Israeli society is that people want to talk. 80 00:09:20,830 --> 00:09:28,630 People want to get a story. I mean, that was not a normal thing to do in the fifties and the 16th. 81 00:09:29,050 --> 00:09:40,020 But, you know, today or in recent years, with the amount of information that we do have, sometimes we may find that this is a different ball game. 82 00:09:40,030 --> 00:09:44,140 And I can tell you, this is really even funny. 83 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:50,980 I mean, when the book came out then after where I mean, some people got in touch with me. 84 00:09:51,730 --> 00:09:52,690 They wanted to talk. 85 00:09:53,860 --> 00:10:01,450 So I have additional information that might be good that, you know, you say, yes, we will publish something here for the time being. 86 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:08,410 I have a contract with Indiana University. So I'm just looking for the timing for the translation. 87 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,129 But if we found anything, eventually it will be published. 88 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:17,050 So hopefully, you know, this new information will be included in the new version. 89 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:29,050 Okay. So let's say the media sees this or let's say some of the conclusions that I would not want to repeat 15 hours before. 90 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:38,410 First of all, Israel was not as isolated as described in the accepted Israelis biography and as claimed by the decision maker. 91 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:44,500 Okay. Again, this isn't something that they meaning the Israeli Zionist and Islamic. 92 00:10:44,510 --> 00:10:57,670 So often it's a common argument. And when you see this spread out the moment, you know, one of the big occurrences and the cooperation, I mean, 93 00:10:58,090 --> 00:11:08,470 no doubt the bottom line is that Israel I would not say is I was not isolated, period, but not as isolated as described in the past. 94 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:17,050 Second, in its quest for allies in the Middle East, Israel's policies different from what they do have the distress syndrome, 95 00:11:17,710 --> 00:11:27,460 which was a result of the Arab world immediately state unwillingness to publicly expose the relations due to the reasons they finally explained later. 96 00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:32,360 Now, this is something that I invented, but I can show you in a minute. 97 00:11:32,380 --> 00:11:38,830 It was not a complete invention because it was based on something and therefore 98 00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:43,660 it was trying to look for the features of what they call the Mr. Syndrome. 99 00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:52,750 It meant that it had seven characteristic certain features which were very relevant to Israel's foreign policy in the Middle East. 100 00:11:53,440 --> 00:12:03,010 Next, as time went by in the post 19 7779 is that you can be 20 years records and everybody down on board. 101 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:10,120 More and more countries are willing to expose their relations with Islam, which then include a recognised policy. 102 00:12:10,450 --> 00:12:15,100 Okay, so this is the proxy and that's why everyone quoted was so important. 103 00:12:15,390 --> 00:12:22,150 Well, wait to go. Some of you may be no Hebrew when you go to the Hebrew Bible, exactly what you say. 104 00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:28,580 We believe as we grew up, if you go, you know, if you go into very, very thoroughly, very hard to translate. 105 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,700 So I would say to my father, that's the closest that I can translate it. 106 00:12:34,030 --> 00:12:42,850 And then so there is a possibility that to move from one state to another, we see as you see, it is not being completed. 107 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:50,770 But next, this process takes place by between the government and the public in general, quote, quality of life. 108 00:12:51,070 --> 00:12:52,840 This is something that we have to remember. 109 00:12:53,150 --> 00:13:01,660 Stay at home, only brought to light a new warm vision of normalisation in contrast to the known world than with Egypt and Jordan. 110 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,960 I would say something about the flavour inside me. 111 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:09,100 Israel's growing acceptance in the Middle East is not irreversible. 112 00:13:10,270 --> 00:13:15,730 If you back also on Israel's policy of dealing with regard to the Palestinian issue, 113 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:21,970 including Jerusalem, and we had at least one good example from the past, 114 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:29,320 the fact that at the beginning of the second Palestinian intifada, I came to find out more from Tunisia, 115 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:34,720 Oman, crackdown in Mauritania, all of that part of the relations with Israel. 116 00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:38,580 Okay. So that is a positive. Okay. 117 00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:42,760 Now, very quickly, I'm not I don't have enough time to go into it, 118 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:51,700 but that I didn't think about the features of Israel's place in the region, the post 1948 period and gone from state a foreign policy. 119 00:13:51,820 --> 00:13:55,600 Three Foreign policy is subject to national. Security consideration? 120 00:13:56,020 --> 00:14:05,860 Yeah, to some extent. Isn't the situation today. I mean, not so much the of the state as much as the national security dictates that it's very close. 121 00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:14,710 It's a small country, again, not any more example territory than what the situation on the 57 and population. 122 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:23,500 Again not relevant there today or in recent decades largely isolated and ostracised in the region. 123 00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:27,700 But there is a gap between the reality and the image. 124 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:37,480 The image is very much and this to some extent, even today, the image is of a lonely state, isolated, ostracised, 125 00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:46,870 if not embattled or the siege mentality, which many of these way means of being guided by the instrumentality. 126 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:53,600 And this is has nothing to do with reality because it goes hand-in-hand with that reality. 127 00:14:53,620 --> 00:15:00,340 So the situation sometimes a but people may have, if they're confronted with the deception, 128 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:11,020 that the situation is the search for superpowers, because obviously this is a very important pillar of the Israeli foreign foreign policy. 129 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:19,000 At the beginning it was runs in the fifties and 60 war, and then the United States replaced it. 130 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:26,530 But there is a major feature of Israel's foreign policy, and then they desire to be long syndrome. 131 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:35,050 This the feature that I quote and a man that Israel wanted to join anyone someone 132 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:42,410 would accept with a naval command in the 50 million defence organisation and 50. 133 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:51,249 The bottom in fact, there was such a thing as way back that back in the fifties, the Common Market, EU or any regulator on guarantees. 134 00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:56,530 I mean anyone with access to the Saudis who was with the UAE for many years, 135 00:15:56,890 --> 00:16:03,010 we were members of the UN, but we are not part of the bloc and not part of the Bloc. 136 00:16:03,310 --> 00:16:06,850 They cannot see any committee of the UAE. 137 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:16,270 They changed the way the in the around the 2000 and the Central Pacific and in the Middle East region. 138 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,820 And here they actually were my book in good faith. 139 00:16:21,820 --> 00:16:24,880 I mean, this is what I have concentrated on. 140 00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:28,810 I mean, the relations with an elite, the Central Airline. 141 00:16:29,020 --> 00:16:38,200 And you see some of the example of countries that even I was looking for a contact with the GCC. 142 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,060 Now, let's say something about Islam. 143 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:50,189 Q was in the region because my main argument was that Islam was not isolated and that if I was playing anyone, So what kind of someone now? 144 00:16:50,190 --> 00:16:59,110 Patron if Islam or in the Middle East, even in the world on faith, say there is a slight difference for me to do of work in the Middle East. 145 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:06,520 I found it is six in the book and I found to all of them in one way or another along the year. 146 00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:12,610 So these are only the title unifying, unifying here of states. 147 00:17:12,610 --> 00:17:22,460 I mean, when they have a common enemy which is unifying their state, quite obviously, they talk about their defensive, 148 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:32,049 especially when an Arab face that an Arab state decided to sign an agreement, Egypt and nine for their name forward. 149 00:17:32,050 --> 00:17:34,290 So one so a big cause. 150 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:46,210 Q In the division among the Arab states in Jerusalem, is they involved in the internal affairs of other We can think there is a theoretical, 151 00:17:46,270 --> 00:17:53,560 there is a debate to what extent if I was involved, so I can say something about that maybe later. 152 00:17:54,490 --> 00:18:00,760 A We can involved in the arrangement, but in general, I would say given more than what was involved, 153 00:18:01,090 --> 00:18:11,440 but not to think that some people think I can give examples later encouraging or accelerating different processes in the world. 154 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:17,070 For example, no doubt that people might be motivated by assimilation, Right? 155 00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:23,980 But no doubt that indeed, accelerating the process of strengthening Palestinian nationalism, 156 00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:27,640 the collision of the clash between the two nation movement. 157 00:18:27,970 --> 00:18:37,210 So there is a very fine balance that anyone who views from international relations spoke about balancing Israelis balancing work in the Middle East. 158 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:43,900 Once you have hegemonic power and like Nasser in Egypt from the fifties, in the sixties, 159 00:18:44,350 --> 00:18:54,110 like Saddam Hussein in the 99 Iran later on, you know, so Israel was always looking for a partner, someone to call. 160 00:18:54,570 --> 00:19:04,379 With eight days these enemy all to intervene once this power is intimidating or threatening a specific country, 161 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:08,970 for example, to draw down in this place, September 1970. 162 00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:17,940 If that played a very important role in defending and finally mediating, which I must admit I was a little bit surprised to see. 163 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:28,560 I mean, we all know about these, but I mean, to day extent, I do know how Islam played a role in making between the Arab states and the United States. 164 00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:38,400 Mediating maybe is not the right word, delivering or helping your state maybe occasionally draw down with Egypt and Morocco, 165 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:49,140 because then maybe so is the one thing they agreed to for some reason. 166 00:19:49,650 --> 00:20:00,760 I see that it's missing in this version. I want to show you now one of them, to show you the comprehensiveness of the research because it dealt with. 167 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:07,440 So let me just say, 13 countries in a three minorities from 48 and the field 21. 168 00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:13,139 So this is very wide and comprehensive that deals with many factors. 169 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:23,130 And I think that one of the advantages, if you can get a glimpse of a genuine picture, not wanting to look at the specific capitals and so on. 170 00:20:23,970 --> 00:20:27,440 All right. Let's look at the map of Israel in the 16th. 171 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:32,370 And please remember that because we go down and see the current map. 172 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,150 But the dominant colour is, of course, I read the so-called. 173 00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:45,420 And so whether in Egypt or goes back the way the Egypt Arab nations with them or not interview them and so on. 174 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:52,439 The blue colour is the country that have formal diplomatic relations with Israel at this time, 175 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:59,820 only to find the 1949 degree is those countries that we have or element that we have. 176 00:21:00,060 --> 00:21:03,070 Israel has clandestine relations. 177 00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:07,080 One of the law, many of them on the telephone, Iran. 178 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:12,430 We'll be right back to different Iran under the law of the shah 1979. 179 00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:19,500 I mean, that was quite an amazing story. I mean, the kind of relations that people have had with Iran at that time. 180 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:32,100 I mean, most of the oil we've read came from Iran, these letters on and off of arms and ammunition through Iran and long I mean, 181 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:36,870 a very strong connection, a very different one, a very strong one. 182 00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:46,320 And then you have the Kurds in northern Iraq. That was a very important and interesting episode, drove them, of course, along the year. 183 00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:57,330 And it's without say obviously I wrote so much and I knew it would also be, you know, excellent book on me for fame and biography. 184 00:21:57,630 --> 00:22:06,120 I'm not talking now about something like more than 50 meetings between people saying the different views by ministers and politicians. 185 00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:12,360 There is an important country along the years that cooperated behind the scenes with Islam. 186 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:19,800 And then you have a in Africa, Ethiopia and Morocco hated each other. 187 00:22:19,950 --> 00:22:28,200 And now one day Israel had the in the 50 and 60 is what is called the Palestinian line, 188 00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:36,240 which was cooperation behind the scenes with Turkey and Iran and then is quite known, I would imagine. 189 00:22:37,170 --> 00:22:44,040 But what is less known that there was also a famine here, not only in Northern Deal, 190 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:50,670 but also in southern Indian that Israel was trying to establish within Japan and within Sudan. 191 00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:58,230 And that was more or less at the same time in the late fifties and in almost succeeded. 192 00:22:58,230 --> 00:23:08,730 But with Japan it was a success. But we that its spread because in 1958 there was a coup in Sudan talking about coups in Sudan, 193 00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:13,860 why there was a coup so that we changed completely the regime. 194 00:23:13,890 --> 00:23:19,709 And then someone also changed the connection that although these are very interesting. 195 00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:25,230 So we have just published an article on Israeli Sudanese relations and then you can find, 196 00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:29,370 you know, interesting things that happened in Islam in Jordan and Sudan. 197 00:23:29,670 --> 00:23:36,360 I mean, in the past they knew very little about so that we can reduce the amount of relations between the two countries. 198 00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:41,820 It's quite amazing. Anyway, so but eventually. So there was no and it started in Vietnam. 199 00:23:42,780 --> 00:23:48,330 You don't see it in the map, but what you call the South Sudan today in that country, 200 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:53,910 there was an organisation called Unknown Year and he fought for independence Christians. 201 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,110 And then there was fighting for their independence and liberties. 202 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:05,200 They had along the hills and eventually they helped them possibly establish some states with them. 203 00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:13,330 Okay. These were the speeches, and the term before is the mistress syndrome. 204 00:24:13,390 --> 00:24:16,720 So let me explain. One of the features of their team. 205 00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:25,150 First of all, this is quite obvious. And behind the scenes, cooperation with Kleinman could be quite wrong. 206 00:24:25,930 --> 00:24:33,340 Maybe these advantage cannot be revered and therefore does not strengthen its international legitimacy. 207 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:42,070 So the thing is that most of the people in Israel and outside their oblivious will have no idea that those things are happening. 208 00:24:42,430 --> 00:24:48,130 So in such a way, you can understand why many of them continue to think that we are isolated. 209 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:55,060 Second, the sense of mutual interest which make the enemy of my enemy, my friend. 210 00:24:55,540 --> 00:24:59,049 That same logic applies almost anywhere but here. 211 00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:09,040 More of an event. Next relationship usually do not last long as they rely on funding and interest, yet occasionally they may last for long. 212 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:17,290 Jordan Engel, welcome to Extensions and maybe talk about a little bit about the workload because I mean, 213 00:25:17,890 --> 00:25:22,840 it's amazing what happens between these two countries since the 16 and the 16. 214 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:35,250 The Mossad opened a branch in late 1963 and since then that was typically mentioned along the end of the time and went very comprehensive. 215 00:25:36,430 --> 00:25:48,300 Next, the presence, the proliferation of states, for example, in the recently in line over minorities and in Israeli foreign policy, 216 00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:52,360 Chinese foreign policy that of the notion of the minority line. 217 00:25:52,570 --> 00:26:00,550 What does it mean that if you only noticed in the Middle East and therefore maybe they have to cooperate with minorities in the Middle East, 218 00:26:01,150 --> 00:26:12,250 like the Kurds in Iraq, like the Christians in Lebanon, and maybe calls in Egypt the truth in Lebanon, 219 00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:22,930 Syria and so on, so that some of the politicians that is stuck with that policy, I mean, to some extent you enough to maybe, 220 00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:32,020 you know, when Israel invaded Yemen 1982, it was a kind of continuation of the alliance of the minority. 221 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,720 However, usually starting with Ben-Gurion, 222 00:26:36,220 --> 00:26:44,680 it was in favour of cooperating with state because they are more organised, they have control over the military, 223 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:53,950 they have sovereignty, they have agencies, they have the Belgian army before its final go to cooperate with the states. 224 00:26:54,460 --> 00:27:00,910 Yes, that is it proved to be very important institutional responsibility of the Mossad. 225 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:13,120 Since the 15 the Mossad developed is responsible for relations with countries that Israel do not have diplomatic relations. 226 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:19,240 The Foreign Office is responsible for countries. We do have diplomatic relations. 227 00:27:19,330 --> 00:27:23,980 However, the Mossad is closed, one for the other. 228 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:27,490 But now, occasionally the Foreign Office was involved. 229 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:34,240 The Ministry of Defence. Shabak. Prime Minister, Special Envoy, third party intermediary. 230 00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:40,590 John Lewis. And more. All of them, you know, many were involved in these kind of activities going on. 231 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,680 For example, you have no idea how many join the. 232 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:48,370 Usually they also themselves because they move from, you know, quite easily from one place to another. 233 00:27:48,670 --> 00:27:52,690 So they offer their offices usually without success. 234 00:27:53,020 --> 00:27:57,170 But still, there are many interesting actors in that respect. 235 00:27:57,790 --> 00:28:07,569 But what the reason for this case in Israel is a long rivalry between the institutions, and therefore I call it in Hebrew. 236 00:28:07,570 --> 00:28:12,460 For anyone who knows the people, it's very difficult to translate this way. 237 00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:20,980 A qualitative local study, which is institutional library, but at the same time the will find is included. 238 00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:27,910 So it means that inside for the main body they're supporting or doing the job. 239 00:28:28,210 --> 00:28:37,440 But we have all the time the library with the Foreign Office and with personal envoys of the Prime Minister and so on of who are to be responsible. 240 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:46,090 Even the have a board, you know, I mean, some of them, for example, I mean the mission of security at the high schools, 241 00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:50,470 I mean, he was responsible for the connection between the local and in the. 242 00:28:51,160 --> 00:29:01,170 It was a little sad, but because it was. Apart from the final version, you interact reacting much more complicated and you need to go into the event. 243 00:29:01,170 --> 00:29:10,739 And sometimes there are things being stuck because of course a lot of either personal or institutional rivalry are very important. 244 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:17,340 And that one of the advantages, as long as they're secret and they're a party of legitimacy, 245 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:23,220 strengthening trust between the parting ways tend to create mistrust and suspicion. 246 00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:33,600 And by the way, leaks and don't know usually, by the way you will want it, you know, both that connection and even that is the value. 247 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:43,870 I know that Shimon Peres, for example, was a leaker, even though he was someone that leaked information. 248 00:29:43,870 --> 00:29:54,779 Apparently people will be surprised to know that another major leaker wasn't enough and maybe even use the standard if you can. 249 00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:58,610 I think, you know, in front of them, have what they think is there in draft form. 250 00:29:58,620 --> 00:30:11,099 You know she well, of course. And even the annexation of the Golan Heights in 1981 was a result of a leak or 251 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:17,990 information that was included in one of the intelligence reports which leaked out. 252 00:30:22,690 --> 00:30:29,290 Now, this is a debate among the voters for some, navigate the question of why you would defend yourself. 253 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,020 You said if you want to say something about today's Iran during the Q&A. 254 00:30:35,260 --> 00:30:47,250 But for the time being, I just want to show you how relevant oh, how frequent that was in the literature, in the material itself. 255 00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:52,239 So, for example, you see that Ben-Gurion said on his explanation, 256 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:59,710 they have always treated that as one phrase that leads to another department in an opening of old memories. 257 00:31:02,990 --> 00:31:08,600 Another one. Iran's prime minister, Idi Amin, during his meeting with Ben-Gurion in 61. 258 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:16,100 Israeli relations can become public obligations, resemble showdown between two people without getting married. 259 00:31:18,050 --> 00:31:25,760 And then there you have a new government in Istanbul. I would say that we are love is a man, loves his mistress very much, likes to enjoy him. 260 00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:28,880 But that's not one to break out on the street. 261 00:31:29,450 --> 00:31:36,710 Now, you mentioned this is about this interesting story when he said that we're going to break out on the street. 262 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,730 He referred to a very famous song by Heinrich Heine. 263 00:31:41,630 --> 00:31:56,270 I didn't find it as a very famous song about the way his mistress and B Street is going in until they live in the famous, you know, street in Berlin. 264 00:31:57,260 --> 00:32:00,380 Don't wait. Don't say hi. 265 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:11,120 We will meet later at home. And this became a famous for a point you can follow that many go through most probably de Mannheim. 266 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:20,810 You know, I think it has to be the important thing. And he was, I think, referring to today without mentioning, hey, you know, okay, look at me. 267 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:30,889 Every year will be the unofficial ambassador who wasn't irascible but not officially outed in Iran secretly and without formal recognition, 268 00:32:30,890 --> 00:32:35,750 was, in fact, enough for me. It was like his Goldilocks affair with the love that you need to be. 269 00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:41,690 That woman are compelled to keep it enclosed, go under the carpet. 270 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:48,050 And I was short of translation. We were actually going to many more than any other country. 271 00:32:48,440 --> 00:33:00,680 And our accomplishments were well, we had an excellent network of contacts and we had access to many people in Asia, but formally we did not exist. 272 00:33:01,490 --> 00:33:07,220 I mean, he was really frustrated. And when in his memoir, he books about it a lot. 273 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:12,889 Okay. And finally, because that war at the end only lasted two years, 274 00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:19,760 you'll hear that gentleman there from the Foreign Office on behalf of you have become something people, anyone with you. 275 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,479 Is it the translation? It doesn't appear to be. 276 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:29,020 Not one word, meaning the existence of all data public relations we would get from the meeting, 277 00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:37,130 not from the front door, but from the workers entrance for the field police and the street response in 1989. 278 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,730 This is what I would have to be the mistress and not the legal wife. 279 00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:46,100 Okay. So this is not something that was related to that in 68. 280 00:33:46,340 --> 00:33:51,260 That was very much relevant to Canada not so long ago. 281 00:33:53,120 --> 00:34:00,620 Now, let's first of all, deal with the question, why do you think it might only cooperate with Israel? 282 00:34:00,770 --> 00:34:07,149 Second question. Well, first of all, in an interview, as we said before, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. 283 00:34:07,150 --> 00:34:17,210 And this is very and went on for air of private eye over I who argue with the DP, which may come from evading capture. 284 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:18,319 But anyway, 285 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:28,850 in the Middle East is very familiar and the fact that that common interest for the need for Israel is of anything they want to have Israeli weaponry, 286 00:34:29,210 --> 00:34:37,430 they want to make assistance, they want to have Israeli intelligence, Mossad, very well known for his intelligence and so on. 287 00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:45,290 So Israel had a lot to give and more of them, and that proved to be very good for them. 288 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:55,190 And time went by H.A., who gave us military financial support through the Jewish lobby in Israel to do this. 289 00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:59,210 And here, the defection is very important. Why? 290 00:34:59,450 --> 00:35:03,590 Most of them can be quite sure. You don't know how strongly the Jewish lobby. 291 00:35:04,370 --> 00:35:08,000 Okay. So people say it's very strong. And you know what I say? 292 00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:13,400 It doesn't make them all for that matter, because that what people think. 293 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:20,150 And therefore, it has been, you know what I mean? 294 00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:24,170 Probably the favourite type of middle son. He was smiling. 295 00:35:24,170 --> 00:35:32,450 And ironically, you know, he was saying something that, you know, what of the words of the Elders of Zion, our way of being. 296 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:38,450 But what is that? You know? Think about it in your name. 297 00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:44,120 You think about it from a negative point of view, but then you are taking these and not using. 298 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:53,710 What about these Rangers? First of all, there's very important equality and inclusion and legitimacy. 299 00:35:54,310 --> 00:36:03,930 A strong sense of isolation. What we know. The people of 2011 in the Bible and insecurity and regardless of the position. 300 00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:07,240 What I mentioned before in the statement that now many times before, 301 00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:14,950 because they said before they sent in secret so many people they don't know what about other countries and so on. 302 00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:18,500 So another hydrophones, Chuck Berry in Sharpie. 303 00:36:18,850 --> 00:36:24,770 He said the following lesson among the security and the intelligence agencies. 304 00:36:25,450 --> 00:36:29,839 Everyone knows how we say everything, but they know. 305 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,450 They know. So once you cooperate with someone, they know. 306 00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:40,390 And that helps us a lot because it's strengthened our position. 307 00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:50,190 So even though it's not publicly stated, it is important for these ladies to show that they you what are you doing? 308 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,360 For example, when and if a recently a knife was suggested. 309 00:36:55,570 --> 00:37:00,910 And that was a kind of experience, but nobody speaking in 15 and 16, 310 00:37:01,780 --> 00:37:09,309 their meeting here behind me is they get to the United States and show me, you know, listen, that important. 311 00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:13,210 And I believe they are willing to cooperate with us. 312 00:37:13,460 --> 00:37:18,360 Now, by the way, we're not convinced of their time and they didn't support the police for their lives. 313 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:24,860 But this is not the only time. This is baloney. And the common enemy force. 314 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:34,750 We went and before the common interest we you mentioned before and the desire to acquire new markets for military and economic reasons. 315 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,780 And yeah, I mean, whether it's out of ammunition, economy or reward more, whatever. 316 00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:44,620 I mean, the markets were quite huge in Turkey. 317 00:37:45,250 --> 00:37:49,559 We need that amount of excess. We need to exchange, for example, between Israel and Turkey. 318 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:58,400 And it was unbelievable. And the same applies to Islamic Iran before until 79 and Islam, for example, 319 00:37:58,420 --> 00:38:06,490 it seems they avoid not only from Iran but later after 79, you know, made the war from the carriers. 320 00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:16,740 Can you imagine where it came from? Kurdish territory and went along with Turkey and then on ships back to two years ago. 321 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:24,110 So there were very common interest, you know, that to serve both sides. 322 00:38:24,970 --> 00:38:31,150 Now, if we are able to go into one of the case that you, you know, 323 00:38:31,330 --> 00:38:40,030 to give you some some stuff mean for, you know, above some of the kind of cooperation possible. 324 00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:49,239 Look at the map. Now, the map in 2022 is completely different than the one that we had over 60. 325 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:57,430 Right. In terms of the kind of I mean, it's quite clear because what is why, from widespread view, 326 00:38:57,430 --> 00:39:03,330 they did look at the law in diplomatic relations, but then we had content. 327 00:39:03,370 --> 00:39:11,200 Right. So we've got this we're talking about big you hoping about other countries, they go there. 328 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:21,010 Now while we talk also about in the country and in Africa, we're talking about the role of the and be like Spain. 329 00:39:21,490 --> 00:39:30,010 And so this is made quite significant. I'm not discounting the enemies which are important. 330 00:39:30,490 --> 00:39:38,530 We I fail mainly to Iran, Syria and the Houthis in Yemen and obviously Hamas and people. 331 00:39:38,530 --> 00:39:42,160 But now in Lebanon, you can see them. It's very small but down there. 332 00:39:42,460 --> 00:39:53,160 Yeah. And you know, these are countries that are know by all they are very much preoccupied with their own ideas or we don't focus. 333 00:39:53,560 --> 00:40:00,280 So that's how I discovered that. But I mean, in general, the picture looks completely different. 334 00:40:01,150 --> 00:40:05,860 So it means that Islam is in a completely different situation. 335 00:40:06,220 --> 00:40:20,060 So e I mean, the maps try to show what I show in many ways to involve Israel or our place in the region and change dramatically, 336 00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:30,790 you know, from that mistrust that nobody is willing to awaken, I think, to someone at least partially is being recognised. 337 00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:43,660 Okay. Now, I want to add something about the whole notion of someone who represents something that it's very different government, 338 00:40:44,350 --> 00:40:54,580 but it may be because they they change something significant and they introduce a new kind of normalisation which I call the 339 00:40:54,970 --> 00:41:04,390 for all illegitimate normalisation which did not exist in the past because we are talking about connection between the people, 340 00:41:04,570 --> 00:41:10,600 these people to people connection in over behind and the end really. 341 00:41:11,110 --> 00:41:20,290 And this is in complete control of the situation with Egypt and Jordan where we hardly have any connection with the people. 342 00:41:20,620 --> 00:41:27,130 We have a very strong connection with the government, with intelligence, with the army and so on. 343 00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:31,420 But no connection, almost no connection. 344 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:38,950 But the culture of under the protocol, which do exist within the whole of the Emirates and Bahrain. 345 00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:44,740 So it means that even if things change, they change slowly. 346 00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:55,980 And we have to remember is like, okay, when we go to some food, it can magically give you just, you know, a couple. 347 00:41:56,090 --> 00:42:02,530 For example, for first let me say something about people having moral obligation. 348 00:42:02,740 --> 00:42:09,070 This is a really interesting story because what was different in this, because of the Jewish community, 349 00:42:09,340 --> 00:42:20,649 which for many and play a very important role in Jewish life, and since the big idea that a wave of immigration, 350 00:42:20,650 --> 00:42:25,900 vulnerable people, they kept their relations between the two countries and in the Jewish community, 351 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:30,820 even local, they also played a role in maintaining discrimination. 352 00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:41,650 Okay. But in without any connection, there was enough chatter between the Iranian side and them on security services. 353 00:42:42,130 --> 00:42:48,910 And that happened, as I said before, from the early sixties, during the time of me. 354 00:42:48,910 --> 00:42:59,390 I mean, we had saw and what happened was that there was quite a lot of information on our enemy from them over. 355 00:42:59,770 --> 00:43:02,020 I do an I give you a few example. 356 00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:14,230 One of them, the war, the civil war between managerial and local in 1963 and the moment they captured a few Egyptian officers, 357 00:43:14,350 --> 00:43:19,000 Egyptian who came to help Algeria, not to invade. 358 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:26,379 Okay, we know that. So the Egyptian officers, they mean them, 359 00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:37,600 often allow the Israeli to interrogate the due to the officer and the I maybe and other people as head of the Mossad 360 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:48,129 said we get a lot of information on the Egyptian army and the Egyptian Soviet made things in their time and so on. 361 00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:59,050 So you have an interesting chairman that he said we have a film in the 1967, for one example, another example, air service. 362 00:43:59,380 --> 00:44:13,670 You I think there were three Arab songs in Casablanca in 65 in phase two in May, 81 and 82, if I'm not mistaken, another one for the 1985, 363 00:44:13,780 --> 00:44:25,090 anywhere in 65 the Israelis got from New York on the all because of the discussion for very well remember we're talking about before the Six-Day War. 364 00:44:25,390 --> 00:44:34,870 And meanwhile I'm getting feeling so isolated, you know, and that time it was the war of the Golden River and so on. 365 00:44:35,140 --> 00:44:40,510 So you get all the information from the closed session of the Arab media, 366 00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:47,319 is president and prime minister on TV and saying what I say, you know, because I got very, very, very wrong. 367 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:53,620 I mean, you are very bad. But in the idea of the war room, they allow these many concerts to come and only for, 368 00:44:53,740 --> 00:45:00,070 you know, the sessions and the dogs, I mean, the the Israeli concert victim individual. 369 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:12,800 No way allowed to run away because that was somehow, indirectly, this is still a kind of thing and known, 370 00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:19,220 not fully known story of my being back when Burke assassination man. 371 00:45:19,490 --> 00:45:23,690 This time he was in the war for an opposition leader. 372 00:45:24,620 --> 00:45:29,000 He was killed by the intelligence services. 373 00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:38,090 But isn't that great? First of all, we don't know exactly war, but the war something that there's something different. 374 00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:46,040 And Islam in many ways, after the Big Mac fell, which was a disaster for different. 375 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:58,429 The whole point is let Italy establish they will consider Secret Service anybody from inside the white people and, you know, very reflective. 376 00:45:58,430 --> 00:46:02,510 And we gave them 1 minutes of the information in order to build organisation. 377 00:46:03,290 --> 00:46:15,440 If what I also had to and I would say to create but you know the ones that we have with the SAVAK, the Iranian, you know, 378 00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:24,920 they're very well known in the royal organisation and you find somebody who probably showing information for sure and maybe more than that, 379 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,230 but no one's talking to them. So that is very vulnerable. 380 00:46:30,830 --> 00:46:32,120 But we find it then. 381 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:43,309 So you reveal, for example, is one of the most interesting cases because in my opinion some of you were in general is a missed opportunity, 382 00:46:43,310 --> 00:46:51,140 but usually because the cell would be after 67 something, The general idea of foreign policy is very pragmatic, 383 00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:56,290 very tender position for these, except for things like in the six or seven months. 384 00:46:57,020 --> 00:47:04,249 And they did deliver their message to Britain and the United States and all to his land. 385 00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:06,470 But it was like they both want to listen. 386 00:47:06,740 --> 00:47:13,730 For some reason we had a certain perception of what is that would be, and we didn't think that that's important. 387 00:47:14,420 --> 00:47:20,030 And I mean, I was surprised to find out that the 1700 spies, for example, 388 00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:27,650 he spent 2335 actually to go with a young or with begging someone, but with them. 389 00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:39,079 And then when they run across and the second way I know, I feel, one, I can explain, you know, and I think that none of them think that, 390 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,990 you know, the next day something significant might have happened and a peace treaty and so on. 391 00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:48,110 But there were a lot of common interest. 392 00:47:48,110 --> 00:47:54,440 You have to understand the same logic, because, for example, when I was fighting next door in Iceland with them, 393 00:47:54,920 --> 00:48:01,400 one of the ground was in Yemen because in Yemen there was a civil war and Yemen had the Yemeni. 394 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:02,300 Okay. 395 00:48:02,420 --> 00:48:12,590 So at a certain point the Yemeni that I can make contact between and the absolute end would be to send them arms and ammunition with live ammunition. 396 00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:18,379 You know, and the big question is to what extent the Saudis are. 397 00:48:18,380 --> 00:48:28,460 Well, well, okay, I don't have a good answer, but my feeling is that if they're well, they say, why don't you know the Yemenis that about our allies? 398 00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:34,960 And why would you support the royalists? We supported the war is not the end. 399 00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:41,020 But do you support the global machinery? Yes. That you and to some they supported the loyalists. 400 00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:47,390 Yes. So we were all at the same time, the same the same logic applied to Saddam Hussein, for example. 401 00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:55,549 You know, go ahead. Indication, you know, with of life. That's the same the Gulf War and then then the guy. 402 00:48:55,550 --> 00:49:00,200 But there'll be some time people of in April something in basketball in the United 403 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:05,809 States were begin in that all the time Bush needed and he make the American said well, 404 00:49:05,810 --> 00:49:10,070 we need to do this and then we to lay down with our enemies and so on. 405 00:49:10,430 --> 00:49:14,480 Okay. So you do see a pattern in the Soviet behaviour. 406 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:21,320 And then there was the five peace plan in 1981, which these were immediately rejected. 407 00:49:21,710 --> 00:49:27,890 And then was that left out then a peace plan in 2002 which became the Arab peace plan. 408 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:35,810 Right. So again, you see here a pattern in this stuff would be in an engagement with the regime. 409 00:49:36,170 --> 00:49:45,139 And it is something that we missed in like what with the army trying to do the same thing with the Soviet you was going to be is not going to get it. 410 00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:56,420 Yes. Finally, I mean, the Israeli decision makers, they realised how important are the Saudis and but the Saudis, 411 00:49:56,420 --> 00:50:00,230 I don't believe they were willing to do more. 412 00:50:00,580 --> 00:50:06,880 And we never tried. I mean, we didn't put them to test and to see whether they went through the thing. 413 00:50:07,210 --> 00:50:11,830 Maybe they did. They were not. I don't know. But we've had to do that. 414 00:50:12,250 --> 00:50:17,440 So I think that this case is highly interesting. 415 00:50:17,590 --> 00:50:24,430 Can you just end with this? I mean, I can show you a good one of the many people. 416 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:31,780 Okay. The perfect fool. But maybe, maybe 800 or more pages too much. 417 00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:42,580 Yeah, I know. And but, Steve, after I completed that big book that I local black holes, I have no doubt about it. 418 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:51,220 Because once you understand what is going on behind the scenes, you understand that there is still a lot of things that a marine doesn't know. 419 00:50:51,610 --> 00:50:59,740 And that's why I'm reading him. You know, if you taking form and Booker Prize winner, I'm sure that many of you know Julian Bond, 420 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,350 which is a wonderful novel in the sense of an ending. 421 00:51:02,740 --> 00:51:12,820 And he said he's not he is dead set in being produced at the point where the imperfections of man only meet the ink and dickerson of the. 422 00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:18,249 And that's exactly the situation, I think, with our work. 423 00:51:18,250 --> 00:51:23,080 And it means if you are willing to admit that, I think going in a better position. 424 00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:33,840 Okay. Ellie, that was an absolutely captivating presentation. 425 00:51:34,410 --> 00:51:40,290 I was optimistic about the chances of the English translation of your book until you picked it up. 426 00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:46,259 And I realise it's going to take more fundraising for the English translation than I had feared, which is, of course, 427 00:51:46,260 --> 00:51:51,210 bad news for all of us who are English readers who are being sold their version according to the contract. 428 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,880 Okay, then, then my hope lies in balance here, but I want to read it. 429 00:51:57,570 --> 00:52:03,810 I am so grateful to you, Ellie, for the clarity with which you have given this exposition on your new book, 430 00:52:04,110 --> 00:52:08,340 taking us through the sources, the arguments, the case studies. 431 00:52:08,940 --> 00:52:12,180 You have definitely whetted our appetites to read more. 432 00:52:12,510 --> 00:52:17,190 Do you not think I'll be shamed for reading it if you don't get people like Abby Slave to read this book? 433 00:52:17,490 --> 00:52:22,110 What has no hope in publishing? But we look forward to the English edition. 434 00:52:22,110 --> 00:52:27,360 For those of us who don't get through Hebrew to be able to add your knowledge to ours. 435 00:52:28,140 --> 00:52:30,860 Would you please join me in extending the warmest thanks to anyone?