Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to the new Centre for Tuesday night's Seminar,
exploring Israel's congratulations of at least 1948 to 2020.
And to address this topic, we are so delighted to be Professor Eddie today of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem,
and he is the founder and full professor in the history of the Muslim Peoples in the Department of Islamic Studies at the university,
where he's served in various honorary capacities chairing this department as president of the Middle East and Islamic Studies Association,
Israel and as a board member of the team, the Israeli Institute for Regional Foreign Policies.
These honours fall on the shoulders of Professor Cody as a reflection of his demonstrated authority in a wide range of subjects.
He has authored more than 14 books, more than 80 academic articles in Hebrew and Arabic and in English.
His most recent book, we see, I believe we see on the screen the Hebrew language.
Readers of the audience will know better than I is Israel's secret relations with states Minorities in the Middle East between 1948 2020,
published in 2022 and English edition is forthcoming.
Yes, it's taken a while to make this happen. Right? I'm glad you finally got there.
The I invite you to the podium to give us your reaction. Join me in welcoming professor and.
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
You know, let let me stop and say, as the famous comedian Bush remarks.
He said the before I speak, I have something important to say.
So before I speak, before I start my lecture.
First of all, I want to thank you, Gene. It's kind of a closure of a circle because I was spending my selection and we spent a day to see.
Three years ago, I went to Miami, and then I was supposed to give a lecture on the same topic.
The book was not yet out. And then two things happened.
One false. And therefore, why not? And eventually I had to fly back home to control my life again, and we went back.
So obviously the lecture did not happen.
And then the second thing that happened was the signing of the Holocaust.
And that was in the second half of 2020.
And when that happened, my first reaction was, wow, I wish my book was a review, because in some way it was connected, as you've seen in my name.
But then after reflection, I didn't understand that I wasn't very lucky that it was not at all because I managed to relate to that and
also to see that in many ways it was the consummation of a long process that I was talking in my book.
And eventually even let me change the title of the book.
And you're saying to me, why? But then only some remarks, you know, in order to understand in general, the big picture.
Now, finally, I want to say something about the picture before we stop.
Now, this is a very famous picture in this light which shows the King Hussein and
the prime minister being immediately after the signing of the peace agreement.
How about this? Is Emanuel saying there father's house in the cupboard?
And this is a very intimate moment and obviously it's a public moment.
However, you don't know. I mean, what is behind that?
This story and the story is that this is an indication of another incident that occurred between 1943 and the
correspondent of a deal to the home to about a period he was interviewing at the end of the naming of him.
You know, they started the interviews and both of them had a smoke filled and they had smoke and then people saying, get the cigarette of smoke up.
Well, you know, the gesture and that did move on, you know, became public and then,
I mean, saw them and they went they made you said, I want that picture,
although some people seem to not so and that I heard from some about Barry at her house and by the way,
and she has another picture of himself and she was saying, so this is this morning's story and all of that is behind the story.
And the pizza, I wouldn't say secret, but, you know, not everyone knows.
Okay. So now we can go to business and and talk about what I have done, fanciful in terms of historiography, what I was trying to do.
I think that I myself am I know there are quite a few people here in the audience.
They really came in and said, Faith, what I call the way looking for work in the British American Archive and myself included.
And therefore, I mean, we obviously we pay an obvious attention to the documents that we find.
Now look at this cool, very firm that says before really historians have a general tendency to pay too
much attention to the evidence to survive and to make to leave it alone for that.
No intelligence can be found.
And we think they mention, first and foremost, because it's a written record, are so difficult to come by and get the facts.
And so because so many things happen behind the scenes and we have no idea, think about them as the think about the Shabak.
Think about our intelligence budget.
If they're working all the time and doing phone things, Some of them are very significant and we know very few or not at all about what happened.
And it made me look at a different direction and trying to locate other things that I
myself have found quite a lot of what I thinking and know my thanks to the archives,
but really we are looking at something different.
So it's secret. What are the sources?
So obviously the archival material is very important and here you have all of the, you know, my theory and so on.
So this includes something which is basically and always in use,
but beyond their belief in confidential documents like the weekly, I think that's what it is.
Sometimes they don't have enough appreciation to what they can find in this material.
Yeah. Now obviously it's a kind of coincidence because it depends on which you use and the information that is in there.
It's not very much organised and so on, but if you are lucky you can find them.
And I found quite a lot, especially about Israel's people's relation in the Gulf.
So that was really revealing. A lot of the immediate sources, the information leaked to the media at the time,
and it's always I find it is in and they're a great source of information for the Estonians.
Also Arabic sources, you know, the Arabic newspapers, for example.
I mean, in the past I used to work on that and I really appreciated that.
But also here and I mainly talk about with the Israeli or the Western newspaper,
because at the time in the fifties and the sixties, the there were many leaks and in time below for goal.com.
But when you look backward and you have a better perspective and more information,
then you know, I mean, what was more truthful or what is more verified and so on.
So many things. Visionary for a source of information.
The memoirs of people involved with the events obviously is always equal.
And then the person that interviewed those people involved in the clandestine.
Now, that was a very meaningful source for me.
I interviewed more than 100 people from defence, intelligence and foreign affairs and so on.
And that's I found very interesting because one thing that happens in Israeli society is that people want to talk.
People want to get a story. I mean, that was not a normal thing to do in the fifties and the 16th.
But, you know, today or in recent years, with the amount of information that we do have, sometimes we may find that this is a different ball game.
And I can tell you, this is really even funny.
I mean, when the book came out then after where I mean, some people got in touch with me.
They wanted to talk.
So I have additional information that might be good that, you know, you say, yes, we will publish something here for the time being.
I have a contract with Indiana University. So I'm just looking for the timing for the translation.
But if we found anything, eventually it will be published.
So hopefully, you know, this new information will be included in the new version.
Okay. So let's say the media sees this or let's say some of the conclusions that I would not want to repeat 15 hours before.
First of all, Israel was not as isolated as described in the accepted Israelis biography and as claimed by the decision maker.
Okay. Again, this isn't something that they meaning the Israeli Zionist and Islamic.
So often it's a common argument. And when you see this spread out the moment, you know, one of the big occurrences and the cooperation, I mean,
no doubt the bottom line is that Israel I would not say is I was not isolated, period, but not as isolated as described in the past.
Second, in its quest for allies in the Middle East, Israel's policies different from what they do have the distress syndrome,
which was a result of the Arab world immediately state unwillingness to publicly expose the relations due to the reasons they finally explained later.
Now, this is something that I invented, but I can show you in a minute.
It was not a complete invention because it was based on something and therefore
it was trying to look for the features of what they call the Mr. Syndrome.
It meant that it had seven characteristic certain features which were very relevant to Israel's foreign policy in the Middle East.
Next, as time went by in the post 19 7779 is that you can be 20 years records and everybody down on board.
More and more countries are willing to expose their relations with Islam, which then include a recognised policy.
Okay, so this is the proxy and that's why everyone quoted was so important.
Well, wait to go. Some of you may be no Hebrew when you go to the Hebrew Bible, exactly what you say.
We believe as we grew up, if you go, you know, if you go into very, very thoroughly, very hard to translate.
So I would say to my father, that's the closest that I can translate it.
And then so there is a possibility that to move from one state to another, we see as you see, it is not being completed.
But next, this process takes place by between the government and the public in general, quote, quality of life.
This is something that we have to remember.
Stay at home, only brought to light a new warm vision of normalisation in contrast to the known world than with Egypt and Jordan.
I would say something about the flavour inside me.
Israel's growing acceptance in the Middle East is not irreversible.
If you back also on Israel's policy of dealing with regard to the Palestinian issue,
including Jerusalem, and we had at least one good example from the past,
the fact that at the beginning of the second Palestinian intifada, I came to find out more from Tunisia,
Oman, crackdown in Mauritania, all of that part of the relations with Israel.
Okay. So that is a positive. Okay.
Now, very quickly, I'm not I don't have enough time to go into it,
but that I didn't think about the features of Israel's place in the region, the post 1948 period and gone from state a foreign policy.
Three Foreign policy is subject to national. Security consideration?
Yeah, to some extent. Isn't the situation today. I mean, not so much the of the state as much as the national security dictates that it's very close.
It's a small country, again, not any more example territory than what the situation on the 57 and population.
Again not relevant there today or in recent decades largely isolated and ostracised in the region.
But there is a gap between the reality and the image.
The image is very much and this to some extent, even today, the image is of a lonely state, isolated, ostracised,
if not embattled or the siege mentality, which many of these way means of being guided by the instrumentality.
And this is has nothing to do with reality because it goes hand-in-hand with that reality.
So the situation sometimes a but people may have, if they're confronted with the deception,
that the situation is the search for superpowers, because obviously this is a very important pillar of the Israeli foreign foreign policy.
At the beginning it was runs in the fifties and 60 war, and then the United States replaced it.
But there is a major feature of Israel's foreign policy, and then they desire to be long syndrome.
This the feature that I quote and a man that Israel wanted to join anyone someone
would accept with a naval command in the 50 million defence organisation and 50.
The bottom in fact, there was such a thing as way back that back in the fifties, the Common Market, EU or any regulator on guarantees.
I mean anyone with access to the Saudis who was with the UAE for many years,
we were members of the UN, but we are not part of the bloc and not part of the Bloc.
They cannot see any committee of the UAE.
They changed the way the in the around the 2000 and the Central Pacific and in the Middle East region.
And here they actually were my book in good faith.
I mean, this is what I have concentrated on.
I mean, the relations with an elite, the Central Airline.
And you see some of the example of countries that even I was looking for a contact with the GCC.
Now, let's say something about Islam.
Q was in the region because my main argument was that Islam was not isolated and that if I was playing anyone, So what kind of someone now?
Patron if Islam or in the Middle East, even in the world on faith, say there is a slight difference for me to do of work in the Middle East.
I found it is six in the book and I found to all of them in one way or another along the year.
So these are only the title unifying, unifying here of states.
I mean, when they have a common enemy which is unifying their state, quite obviously, they talk about their defensive,
especially when an Arab face that an Arab state decided to sign an agreement, Egypt and nine for their name forward.
So one so a big cause.
Q In the division among the Arab states in Jerusalem, is they involved in the internal affairs of other We can think there is a theoretical,
there is a debate to what extent if I was involved, so I can say something about that maybe later.
A We can involved in the arrangement, but in general, I would say given more than what was involved,
but not to think that some people think I can give examples later encouraging or accelerating different processes in the world.
For example, no doubt that people might be motivated by assimilation, Right?
But no doubt that indeed, accelerating the process of strengthening Palestinian nationalism,
the collision of the clash between the two nation movement.
So there is a very fine balance that anyone who views from international relations spoke about balancing Israelis balancing work in the Middle East.
Once you have hegemonic power and like Nasser in Egypt from the fifties, in the sixties,
like Saddam Hussein in the 99 Iran later on, you know, so Israel was always looking for a partner, someone to call.
With eight days these enemy all to intervene once this power is intimidating or threatening a specific country,
for example, to draw down in this place, September 1970.
If that played a very important role in defending and finally mediating, which I must admit I was a little bit surprised to see.
I mean, we all know about these, but I mean, to day extent, I do know how Islam played a role in making between the Arab states and the United States.
Mediating maybe is not the right word, delivering or helping your state maybe occasionally draw down with Egypt and Morocco,
because then maybe so is the one thing they agreed to for some reason.
I see that it's missing in this version. I want to show you now one of them, to show you the comprehensiveness of the research because it dealt with.
So let me just say, 13 countries in a three minorities from 48 and the field 21.
So this is very wide and comprehensive that deals with many factors.
And I think that one of the advantages, if you can get a glimpse of a genuine picture, not wanting to look at the specific capitals and so on.
All right. Let's look at the map of Israel in the 16th.
And please remember that because we go down and see the current map.
But the dominant colour is, of course, I read the so-called.
And so whether in Egypt or goes back the way the Egypt Arab nations with them or not interview them and so on.
The blue colour is the country that have formal diplomatic relations with Israel at this time,
only to find the 1949 degree is those countries that we have or element that we have.
Israel has clandestine relations.
One of the law, many of them on the telephone, Iran.
We'll be right back to different Iran under the law of the shah 1979.
I mean, that was quite an amazing story. I mean, the kind of relations that people have had with Iran at that time.
I mean, most of the oil we've read came from Iran, these letters on and off of arms and ammunition through Iran and long I mean,
a very strong connection, a very different one, a very strong one.
And then you have the Kurds in northern Iraq. That was a very important and interesting episode, drove them, of course, along the year.
And it's without say obviously I wrote so much and I knew it would also be, you know, excellent book on me for fame and biography.
I'm not talking now about something like more than 50 meetings between people saying the different views by ministers and politicians.
There is an important country along the years that cooperated behind the scenes with Islam.
And then you have a in Africa, Ethiopia and Morocco hated each other.
And now one day Israel had the in the 50 and 60 is what is called the Palestinian line,
which was cooperation behind the scenes with Turkey and Iran and then is quite known, I would imagine.
But what is less known that there was also a famine here, not only in Northern Deal,
but also in southern Indian that Israel was trying to establish within Japan and within Sudan.
And that was more or less at the same time in the late fifties and in almost succeeded.
But with Japan it was a success. But we that its spread because in 1958 there was a coup in Sudan talking about coups in Sudan,
why there was a coup so that we changed completely the regime.
And then someone also changed the connection that although these are very interesting.
So we have just published an article on Israeli Sudanese relations and then you can find,
you know, interesting things that happened in Islam in Jordan and Sudan.
I mean, in the past they knew very little about so that we can reduce the amount of relations between the two countries.
It's quite amazing. Anyway, so but eventually. So there was no and it started in Vietnam.
You don't see it in the map, but what you call the South Sudan today in that country,
there was an organisation called Unknown Year and he fought for independence Christians.
And then there was fighting for their independence and liberties.
They had along the hills and eventually they helped them possibly establish some states with them.
Okay. These were the speeches, and the term before is the mistress syndrome.
So let me explain. One of the features of their team.
First of all, this is quite obvious. And behind the scenes, cooperation with Kleinman could be quite wrong.
Maybe these advantage cannot be revered and therefore does not strengthen its international legitimacy.
So the thing is that most of the people in Israel and outside their oblivious will have no idea that those things are happening.
So in such a way, you can understand why many of them continue to think that we are isolated.
Second, the sense of mutual interest which make the enemy of my enemy, my friend.
That same logic applies almost anywhere but here.
More of an event. Next relationship usually do not last long as they rely on funding and interest, yet occasionally they may last for long.
Jordan Engel, welcome to Extensions and maybe talk about a little bit about the workload because I mean,
it's amazing what happens between these two countries since the 16 and the 16.
The Mossad opened a branch in late 1963 and since then that was typically mentioned along the end of the time and went very comprehensive.
Next, the presence, the proliferation of states, for example, in the recently in line over minorities and in Israeli foreign policy,
Chinese foreign policy that of the notion of the minority line.
What does it mean that if you only noticed in the Middle East and therefore maybe they have to cooperate with minorities in the Middle East,
like the Kurds in Iraq, like the Christians in Lebanon, and maybe calls in Egypt the truth in Lebanon,
Syria and so on, so that some of the politicians that is stuck with that policy, I mean, to some extent you enough to maybe,
you know, when Israel invaded Yemen 1982, it was a kind of continuation of the alliance of the minority.
However, usually starting with Ben-Gurion,
it was in favour of cooperating with state because they are more organised, they have control over the military,
they have sovereignty, they have agencies, they have the Belgian army before its final go to cooperate with the states.
Yes, that is it proved to be very important institutional responsibility of the Mossad.
Since the 15 the Mossad developed is responsible for relations with countries that Israel do not have diplomatic relations.
The Foreign Office is responsible for countries. We do have diplomatic relations.
However, the Mossad is closed, one for the other.
But now, occasionally the Foreign Office was involved.
The Ministry of Defence. Shabak. Prime Minister, Special Envoy, third party intermediary.
John Lewis. And more. All of them, you know, many were involved in these kind of activities going on.
For example, you have no idea how many join the.
Usually they also themselves because they move from, you know, quite easily from one place to another.
So they offer their offices usually without success.
But still, there are many interesting actors in that respect.
But what the reason for this case in Israel is a long rivalry between the institutions, and therefore I call it in Hebrew.
For anyone who knows the people, it's very difficult to translate this way.
A qualitative local study, which is institutional library, but at the same time the will find is included.
So it means that inside for the main body they're supporting or doing the job.
But we have all the time the library with the Foreign Office and with personal envoys of the Prime Minister and so on of who are to be responsible.
Even the have a board, you know, I mean, some of them, for example, I mean the mission of security at the high schools,
I mean, he was responsible for the connection between the local and in the.
It was a little sad, but because it was. Apart from the final version, you interact reacting much more complicated and you need to go into the event.
And sometimes there are things being stuck because of course a lot of either personal or institutional rivalry are very important.
And that one of the advantages, as long as they're secret and they're a party of legitimacy,
strengthening trust between the parting ways tend to create mistrust and suspicion.
And by the way, leaks and don't know usually, by the way you will want it, you know, both that connection and even that is the value.
I know that Shimon Peres, for example, was a leaker, even though he was someone that leaked information.
Apparently people will be surprised to know that another major leaker wasn't enough and maybe even use the standard if you can.
I think, you know, in front of them, have what they think is there in draft form.
You know she well, of course. And even the annexation of the Golan Heights in 1981 was a result of a leak or
information that was included in one of the intelligence reports which leaked out.
Now, this is a debate among the voters for some, navigate the question of why you would defend yourself.
You said if you want to say something about today's Iran during the Q&A.
But for the time being, I just want to show you how relevant oh, how frequent that was in the literature, in the material itself.
So, for example, you see that Ben-Gurion said on his explanation,
they have always treated that as one phrase that leads to another department in an opening of old memories.
Another one. Iran's prime minister, Idi Amin, during his meeting with Ben-Gurion in 61.
Israeli relations can become public obligations, resemble showdown between two people without getting married.
And then there you have a new government in Istanbul. I would say that we are love is a man, loves his mistress very much, likes to enjoy him.
But that's not one to break out on the street.
Now, you mentioned this is about this interesting story when he said that we're going to break out on the street.
He referred to a very famous song by Heinrich Heine.
I didn't find it as a very famous song about the way his mistress and B Street is going in until they live in the famous, you know, street in Berlin.
Don't wait. Don't say hi.
We will meet later at home. And this became a famous for a point you can follow that many go through most probably de Mannheim.
You know, I think it has to be the important thing. And he was, I think, referring to today without mentioning, hey, you know, okay, look at me.
Every year will be the unofficial ambassador who wasn't irascible but not officially outed in Iran secretly and without formal recognition,
was, in fact, enough for me. It was like his Goldilocks affair with the love that you need to be.
That woman are compelled to keep it enclosed, go under the carpet.
And I was short of translation. We were actually going to many more than any other country.
And our accomplishments were well, we had an excellent network of contacts and we had access to many people in Asia, but formally we did not exist.
I mean, he was really frustrated. And when in his memoir, he books about it a lot.
Okay. And finally, because that war at the end only lasted two years,
you'll hear that gentleman there from the Foreign Office on behalf of you have become something people, anyone with you.
Is it the translation? It doesn't appear to be.
Not one word, meaning the existence of all data public relations we would get from the meeting,
not from the front door, but from the workers entrance for the field police and the street response in 1989.
This is what I would have to be the mistress and not the legal wife.
Okay. So this is not something that was related to that in 68.
That was very much relevant to Canada not so long ago.
Now, let's first of all, deal with the question, why do you think it might only cooperate with Israel?
Second question. Well, first of all, in an interview, as we said before, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
And this is very and went on for air of private eye over I who argue with the DP, which may come from evading capture.
But anyway,
in the Middle East is very familiar and the fact that that common interest for the need for Israel is of anything they want to have Israeli weaponry,
they want to make assistance, they want to have Israeli intelligence, Mossad, very well known for his intelligence and so on.
So Israel had a lot to give and more of them, and that proved to be very good for them.
And time went by H.A., who gave us military financial support through the Jewish lobby in Israel to do this.
And here, the defection is very important. Why?
Most of them can be quite sure. You don't know how strongly the Jewish lobby.
Okay. So people say it's very strong. And you know what I say?
It doesn't make them all for that matter, because that what people think.
And therefore, it has been, you know what I mean?
Probably the favourite type of middle son. He was smiling.
And ironically, you know, he was saying something that, you know, what of the words of the Elders of Zion, our way of being.
But what is that? You know? Think about it in your name.
You think about it from a negative point of view, but then you are taking these and not using.
What about these Rangers? First of all, there's very important equality and inclusion and legitimacy.
A strong sense of isolation. What we know. The people of 2011 in the Bible and insecurity and regardless of the position.
What I mentioned before in the statement that now many times before,
because they said before they sent in secret so many people they don't know what about other countries and so on.
So another hydrophones, Chuck Berry in Sharpie.
He said the following lesson among the security and the intelligence agencies.
Everyone knows how we say everything, but they know.
They know. So once you cooperate with someone, they know.
And that helps us a lot because it's strengthened our position.
So even though it's not publicly stated, it is important for these ladies to show that they you what are you doing?
For example, when and if a recently a knife was suggested.
And that was a kind of experience, but nobody speaking in 15 and 16,
their meeting here behind me is they get to the United States and show me, you know, listen, that important.
And I believe they are willing to cooperate with us.
Now, by the way, we're not convinced of their time and they didn't support the police for their lives.
But this is not the only time. This is baloney. And the common enemy force.
We went and before the common interest we you mentioned before and the desire to acquire new markets for military and economic reasons.
And yeah, I mean, whether it's out of ammunition, economy or reward more, whatever.
I mean, the markets were quite huge in Turkey.
We need that amount of excess. We need to exchange, for example, between Israel and Turkey.
And it was unbelievable. And the same applies to Islamic Iran before until 79 and Islam, for example,
it seems they avoid not only from Iran but later after 79, you know, made the war from the carriers.
Can you imagine where it came from? Kurdish territory and went along with Turkey and then on ships back to two years ago.
So there were very common interest, you know, that to serve both sides.
Now, if we are able to go into one of the case that you, you know,
to give you some some stuff mean for, you know, above some of the kind of cooperation possible.
Look at the map. Now, the map in 2022 is completely different than the one that we had over 60.
Right. In terms of the kind of I mean, it's quite clear because what is why, from widespread view,
they did look at the law in diplomatic relations, but then we had content.
Right. So we've got this we're talking about big you hoping about other countries, they go there.
Now while we talk also about in the country and in Africa, we're talking about the role of the and be like Spain.
And so this is made quite significant. I'm not discounting the enemies which are important.
We I fail mainly to Iran, Syria and the Houthis in Yemen and obviously Hamas and people.
But now in Lebanon, you can see them. It's very small but down there.
Yeah. And you know, these are countries that are know by all they are very much preoccupied with their own ideas or we don't focus.
So that's how I discovered that. But I mean, in general, the picture looks completely different.
So it means that Islam is in a completely different situation.
So e I mean, the maps try to show what I show in many ways to involve Israel or our place in the region and change dramatically,
you know, from that mistrust that nobody is willing to awaken, I think, to someone at least partially is being recognised.
Okay. Now, I want to add something about the whole notion of someone who represents something that it's very different government,
but it may be because they they change something significant and they introduce a new kind of normalisation which I call the
for all illegitimate normalisation which did not exist in the past because we are talking about connection between the people,
these people to people connection in over behind and the end really.
And this is in complete control of the situation with Egypt and Jordan where we hardly have any connection with the people.
We have a very strong connection with the government, with intelligence, with the army and so on.
But no connection, almost no connection.
But the culture of under the protocol, which do exist within the whole of the Emirates and Bahrain.
So it means that even if things change, they change slowly.
And we have to remember is like, okay, when we go to some food, it can magically give you just, you know, a couple.
For example, for first let me say something about people having moral obligation.
This is a really interesting story because what was different in this, because of the Jewish community,
which for many and play a very important role in Jewish life, and since the big idea that a wave of immigration,
vulnerable people, they kept their relations between the two countries and in the Jewish community,
even local, they also played a role in maintaining discrimination.
Okay. But in without any connection, there was enough chatter between the Iranian side and them on security services.
And that happened, as I said before, from the early sixties, during the time of me.
I mean, we had saw and what happened was that there was quite a lot of information on our enemy from them over.
I do an I give you a few example.
One of them, the war, the civil war between managerial and local in 1963 and the moment they captured a few Egyptian officers,
Egyptian who came to help Algeria, not to invade.
Okay, we know that. So the Egyptian officers, they mean them,
often allow the Israeli to interrogate the due to the officer and the I maybe and other people as head of the Mossad
said we get a lot of information on the Egyptian army and the Egyptian Soviet made things in their time and so on.
So you have an interesting chairman that he said we have a film in the 1967, for one example, another example, air service.
You I think there were three Arab songs in Casablanca in 65 in phase two in May, 81 and 82, if I'm not mistaken, another one for the 1985,
anywhere in 65 the Israelis got from New York on the all because of the discussion for very well remember we're talking about before the Six-Day War.
And meanwhile I'm getting feeling so isolated, you know, and that time it was the war of the Golden River and so on.
So you get all the information from the closed session of the Arab media,
is president and prime minister on TV and saying what I say, you know, because I got very, very, very wrong.
I mean, you are very bad. But in the idea of the war room, they allow these many concerts to come and only for,
you know, the sessions and the dogs, I mean, the the Israeli concert victim individual.
No way allowed to run away because that was somehow, indirectly, this is still a kind of thing and known,
not fully known story of my being back when Burke assassination man.
This time he was in the war for an opposition leader.
He was killed by the intelligence services.
But isn't that great? First of all, we don't know exactly war, but the war something that there's something different.
And Islam in many ways, after the Big Mac fell, which was a disaster for different.
The whole point is let Italy establish they will consider Secret Service anybody from inside the white people and, you know, very reflective.
And we gave them 1 minutes of the information in order to build organisation.
If what I also had to and I would say to create but you know the ones that we have with the SAVAK, the Iranian, you know,
they're very well known in the royal organisation and you find somebody who probably showing information for sure and maybe more than that,
but no one's talking to them. So that is very vulnerable.
But we find it then.
So you reveal, for example, is one of the most interesting cases because in my opinion some of you were in general is a missed opportunity,
but usually because the cell would be after 67 something, The general idea of foreign policy is very pragmatic,
very tender position for these, except for things like in the six or seven months.
And they did deliver their message to Britain and the United States and all to his land.
But it was like they both want to listen.
For some reason we had a certain perception of what is that would be, and we didn't think that that's important.
And I mean, I was surprised to find out that the 1700 spies, for example,
he spent 2335 actually to go with a young or with begging someone, but with them.
And then when they run across and the second way I know, I feel, one, I can explain, you know, and I think that none of them think that,
you know, the next day something significant might have happened and a peace treaty and so on.
But there were a lot of common interest.
You have to understand the same logic, because, for example, when I was fighting next door in Iceland with them,
one of the ground was in Yemen because in Yemen there was a civil war and Yemen had the Yemeni.
Okay.
So at a certain point the Yemeni that I can make contact between and the absolute end would be to send them arms and ammunition with live ammunition.
You know, and the big question is to what extent the Saudis are.
Well, well, okay, I don't have a good answer, but my feeling is that if they're well, they say, why don't you know the Yemenis that about our allies?
And why would you support the royalists? We supported the war is not the end.
But do you support the global machinery? Yes. That you and to some they supported the loyalists.
Yes. So we were all at the same time, the same the same logic applied to Saddam Hussein, for example.
You know, go ahead. Indication, you know, with of life. That's the same the Gulf War and then then the guy.
But there'll be some time people of in April something in basketball in the United
States were begin in that all the time Bush needed and he make the American said well,
we need to do this and then we to lay down with our enemies and so on.
Okay. So you do see a pattern in the Soviet behaviour.
And then there was the five peace plan in 1981, which these were immediately rejected.
And then was that left out then a peace plan in 2002 which became the Arab peace plan.
Right. So again, you see here a pattern in this stuff would be in an engagement with the regime.
And it is something that we missed in like what with the army trying to do the same thing with the Soviet you was going to be is not going to get it.
Yes. Finally, I mean, the Israeli decision makers, they realised how important are the Saudis and but the Saudis,
I don't believe they were willing to do more.
And we never tried. I mean, we didn't put them to test and to see whether they went through the thing.
Maybe they did. They were not. I don't know. But we've had to do that.
So I think that this case is highly interesting.
Can you just end with this? I mean, I can show you a good one of the many people.
Okay. The perfect fool. But maybe, maybe 800 or more pages too much.
Yeah, I know. And but, Steve, after I completed that big book that I local black holes, I have no doubt about it.
Because once you understand what is going on behind the scenes, you understand that there is still a lot of things that a marine doesn't know.
And that's why I'm reading him. You know, if you taking form and Booker Prize winner, I'm sure that many of you know Julian Bond,
which is a wonderful novel in the sense of an ending.
And he said he's not he is dead set in being produced at the point where the imperfections of man only meet the ink and dickerson of the.
And that's exactly the situation, I think, with our work.
And it means if you are willing to admit that, I think going in a better position.
Okay. Ellie, that was an absolutely captivating presentation.
I was optimistic about the chances of the English translation of your book until you picked it up.
And I realise it's going to take more fundraising for the English translation than I had feared, which is, of course,
bad news for all of us who are English readers who are being sold their version according to the contract.
Okay, then, then my hope lies in balance here, but I want to read it.
I am so grateful to you, Ellie, for the clarity with which you have given this exposition on your new book,
taking us through the sources, the arguments, the case studies.
You have definitely whetted our appetites to read more.
Do you not think I'll be shamed for reading it if you don't get people like Abby Slave to read this book?
What has no hope in publishing? But we look forward to the English edition.
For those of us who don't get through Hebrew to be able to add your knowledge to ours.
Would you please join me in extending the warmest thanks to anyone?