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Okay, everyone, welcome. My name is Mariam Alexander.

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And those of you that don't know me. And this is the first Trinity term event.

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Um, the, uh, the women's rights in the Middle East research seminar.

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So thank you for being here. We are very, very happy to have Doctor Hiba Charslie with us today, who has been, uh, visiting Antonia this year.

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And we have loved having her around and have been really waiting for this talk.

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Glad it's here. Uh, Doctor Qazi is an associate professor of political science and former director of undergraduate

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programs at George Mason University at the Shah School of Policy and Government since 2014.

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She teaches undergraduate and graduate courses on international relations theory,

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civil society and social movements, politics, government and society of the Middle East and North Africa.

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Uh, Israeli Palestinian politics and Islam and politics.

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Sure, you're in high demand. Uh, so we're happy to have you.

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Um, she was awarded the 2016 Outstanding Teacher Award and the 2022 Dean's Service Award.

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It actually shows these and affiliated faculty to the Adam Silverman Centre for Global Islamic Studies at George Mason University, as well.

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And, uh, she was an adjunct faculty in Georgetown University's master's degree program at the centre for Democracy and Civil Society as well,

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before 2014. Uh, no, actually.

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Oh, we can yeah, we can kind of be an adjunct somewhere and also be, um, but today she will be speaking with us about Tunisian trade union women,

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which, if I'm not mistaken, she's also been directly, uh, involved with at in a former activist life.

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Yes. Yeah, I will tell you about that. So, yeah.

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Uh, you are the exact person you want to hear about this from.

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And, uh, please join me in welcoming doctor. Thank you.

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Thank you very. Thank you so very much.

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Thank you to Professor Alan Zadeh.

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Mariam Jun, I get to practice my few words of Farsi with with with Mariam.

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Um, and thank you to everyone here. Um, I truly appreciate your support.

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And, um, I just have to do a shout out to my dear husband.

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So thank you for all your support, because I couldn't be here without you.

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So thank you. Um, and thank you to my school for giving me this year of sabbatical, because it's been grand.

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And I must say, uh, it's going to be hard to go back, but, um, I'm looking forward to it.

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And, um, registration is already open for our courses.

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Uh, in the U.S, you know, we start early, our courses begin, you know, on the 26th of August.

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So I'm teaching three. One of them is already full and there's a waiting list.

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So. So anyway, so I better get my act together between them, uh, now and then.

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So okay, I'm going to talk about Tunisian trade union women.

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It's a it's a bit of a mouthful, but there are agents of change.

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And I'm going to tell you their story and how they have been doing that within their unions, but also within their society.

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I think everyone knows where Tunisia is. Uh, I was there in January, but, um, I do have quite a bit of history with them.

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I started working with the Tunisian labour movement in 1994.

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Okay. So it's it's been a while.

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And, um, so really this is kind of, uh, uh, it's been a, a life endeavour, um, several decades of working with them and seeing them today.

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Uh, is, is really, uh, it's really very, very exciting.

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Okay. So first of all, why Tunisia? Okay.

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There's a reason, uh, and those are sort of the three there are three things that I want to spend time with you on today is why Tunisia,

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uh, why focusing on women and women in the labour movement and why the labour movement also, these are all related.

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And I think when it comes to Tunisia, it will make sense why Tunisia, Tunisia had a revolution in 2011, actually, uh,

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the day a 17th of December, 2010 was the day that that young man Mohammed, in um, uh, Sidi Bouzid set himself on fire.

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It was a very dramatic moment and, uh, very sadly, he suffered.

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And he died on the 4th of January, 2011.

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That moment that that those days in the life of Tunisia and Tunisians, um, led to some very dramatic events thereafter.

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And a revolution then ensued. Uh, an uprising.

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Now, Tunisia has always been for us, living in the region, for us in the neighbourhood,

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um, is a quiet and gentle place, and we refer to it in Arabic as Tunisia.

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Tunisia, the green. Um, it is a relatively small country when it comes, if you look at its neighbours,

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if you look at, you know, um, Algeria to one side, Libya to the other, of course.

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Um, on the other side, Egypt, um, small in size and small in population.

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We're talking about 11 million people. So, um, who it is in that place, everything began.

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It's sort of where it all started. It's where that first domino fell and then the others came after.

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So that's why Tunisia, um, is, is very, um, is very important.

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Uh, also that it started all in a rural poor area.

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And so you think of revolutions, you think of cities, you think of urban urban unrest.

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But this started in a rural poor area.

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It was very much pointing to the crooked system, the corruption that was in the country.

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No hope, uh, and a young man of 26, 27 years old.

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And I think you all know the story. Taking his life, uh, in, in such a manner.

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It captured Tunisia, captured our imagination, it captured the headlines.

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It sort of stole the thunder in the region, uh, and everyone and I think I know many, um, in Egypt would say sort of look aside and say,

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goodness, that's just Tunisia, you know, and they would look at it a bit with some disdain, which is very unfortunate.

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But then some would say, well, then that sparked things to start happening in Egypt, you know, in January of 2011.

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But anyway, I just wanted to to set the scene for you. And why Tunisia?

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Uh, Tunisia in particular. Um, can you she also has and continues to have a large middle class and remember that that's that's also important.

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Because that's that group in society that will tend to take the take the lead and so forth.

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There are a few other things that I'll point out a little bit later.

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Why focus on Tunisian women of of all people, if you will?

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Because Tunisia was also known very much so that it was the leader for women's rights in the region ever since 1956 56,

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and with their first president after independence,

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Habib Kabi was this, you know, Maverick, here I was the some sort of tough guy, uh, that very much, um, advocated for women.

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And it's sort of it took that role of emancipation of women in the Arab world.

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But there was some issues, there were some issues. And, um, I will I will address those issues.

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Um, because when you have something coming down and they refer to it actually as state feminism.

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Okay. And I think you're familiar with it, um, it, it's, it's problematic.

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It ends up actually there was a backlash in the sense that it didn't recognise or didn't take into account some of the more conservative,

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um, uh, cultural Muslim values and, and traditions, if you will, in the rural areas, but also but also in the cities.

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So it was a double edged sword, if you will.

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Um, and so I think that's why it was important for me to, to spend time with Tunisian women in particular.

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Now before I leave work, though, he was, um, an interesting fellow in the sense that he focussed very much his policies,

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uh, and his agenda on education and health care.

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He said, look, this is again from interviews and people, you know,

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telling me these and also from, from many readings is that he said, look, we're a small country.

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We're never going to be able to compete, you know, with the Algeria or the Egypt, you know, in terms of military, if you will.

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So we put our money into something that we will never win in the sense that building up their military, building up their army.

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So I'm going to invest in what, you know, people and education and health care were the best and the top.

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And that's excellent really, because it left Tunisia with a healthy, educated population and really,

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uh, it, it, it factored into the middle class in terms of building that middle class.

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Okay. All right. Now why trade unions?

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Well, besides that, in my prior life, um, I spent, um, 28 years or so, I think.

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So, yes. Uh, I'm showing my age, but, um, from, uh, 1981.

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Yeah, 1981 with, uh, Solidarnosc in Poland.

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That's how I got roped in. I was still I was still a senior, and I was some I was, um, in my fourth year at university in Washington, DC.

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And so, um, I was very much attracted by the,

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by the movement and this incredibly bold movement in Poland to stand up to the communist regime and and so forth.

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So. The labour movement in Tunisia was founded in 1948.

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Okay. If you recall, I just said that Tunisia actually got its independence in 1956.

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So the labour movement was actually there on its feet before Tunisia became officially independent from France.

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The labour movement known as the in the French acronym, usually today,

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which is a new general, did propel Tunisia, which is the general union of Tunisian Workers.

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Um, they were founded and they were very much part of the Tunisian struggle against colonialism and against the colonial power, against the French.

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They were hand in hand with labour and with several other leaders.

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And one of the gentlemen I'm going to share with you his name is some, uh, for help.

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Hachette. Uh, let me go. There he is. Was one of the founders or was the main leader.

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And actually, very sadly, he he was assassinated in 1952, um, by the French.

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So it was even before Tunisia. It became independent. So anyway, so I just want to point out to you that Tunisia.

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Why it's important, why women and then why the labour movement?

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Because the labour movement has been there working for um, independence, um, fighting against colonialism.

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And then with war came about coming on board, then building a country.

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Um, from 1956. And they will say, until today.

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Okay. So I've set the three pillars, if you will.

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Um, and the labour movement is very much a part of it. So, um, this is how Fahad has said, I want to show you and this photo here.

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If you see, I know it's not, but it's a bit grainy. Here he is with two women.

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We don't know who they are, but this was at a rally and he was there with them,

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and, you know, so it shows again, women were there from the very beginning.

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Uh, from 1948, um, until today.

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Then we have another one, uh, Sharif femicide, uh, 1951.

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She was the first woman elected to the Executive Council of the UAE.

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And please remember her because, uh, it wasn't until 2017.

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Until the next one. Okay. Now I know, and I'll explain as to how come this this distance, if you will, from 1951, uh, with Sharif.

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I'm a Saudi who was known as a feminist revolutionary, um, and quite the active with her husband.

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They were, uh, dynamic duo. Mahmoud Massoud.

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Here she is. You see her on the right in this one photo and how reliable it had.

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So that means freedom with the. It's a hedge with the union, uh, with the unity.

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So again, freedom and the city. Very important.

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Here she is in a meeting. You can see she's surrounded and she's standing up and she's making a point, um, to the gathering of, um, uh, group there.

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So, um, so Sharif Asadi, again, very important.

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I mentioned to you, happy birthday. Happy birthday.

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But we could spend hours talking about him. But he was very keen on setting a sort of a revolutionary, uh, women's rights law.

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And I must say, they were, um, you know, uh, what we say somebody in law is they were leaders in, in the region.

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Absolutely. Everyone would look at and point to Tunisia and say, see, look at Tunisia.

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Um, because the laws were there. The problem is, is it was top down laws are wonderful, but they need to also become fabric, a part of the society.

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They need to become a part of the culture. They need to become a part of your every day behaviour and thinking and so on.

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Otherwise it just becomes much more difficult.

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It becomes much more difficult. And um, so he wanted women to vote.

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He wanted women to legalise divorce, to have access to health care and, you know, just all kinds of things that we, uh, you know, appreciate.

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Um, so advocacy very much. There was advocacy change in attitudes, challenges from 1956 until the present.

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Now, my story with the utility and particularly with the women began in 1994.

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That was my first trip, September of 1994.

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I travelled quite a bit, and that's why I always have to say thank you to my husband, because they would always ask me, by the way.

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They'd say, oh, what? Uh, what's so who's taking care of your children?

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And I would sort of indignantly say, well, my, that's their father, you know.

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So it's interesting because, you know, if I was a man, I don't think I'd get asked that question, but that's that's another story.

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But, um, I was there in September of 1994, my first time to Tunisia.

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By the way, we don't travel. We. Middle Eastern leaders don't travel to other Arab countries very often.

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It's really kind of sad. We got, you know, um, I by the way, I'm originally from Egypt, so I'm putting my cards on the table here, so.

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So yes, it was the first time I'd ever been to Tunisia was in 1994.

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I met with because I was coming representing the American labour movement.

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So I had quite the sort of, uh, visit, you know, this.

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So my, my business card was visa was very important because the Tunisian labour movement very much appreciated the American labour movement,

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their role, particularly during World War two and after World War two,

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and the fight against communism because the American labour movement that was there very much focussed on that.

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So that's that's what they were very anti-communist and and so forth.

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So, so let's say I came with very great introductions.

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I was with a colleague who was another woman, and we got to meet with all the leaders and so forth who were all men.

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But then they arranged for a lunch and they invited the Women's Committee.

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I remember it very clearly.

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We met at a restaurant called The Shack, which, by the way, is still there, and we sat at this very long table and the women were all on one side.

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I was in the middle, my colleague Kate was across from me, and the men were all on the other side.

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And conversations, you know, were happening on one side of the table quite loud and so on.

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The women were rather quiet, and they would start to whisper and whisper in my ear and say, we really need some assistance.

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We need some help. Um, and that was the beginning of my story in the sense of working with them in terms of, um, developing training programs,

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helping them be able to train others, um, and, you know, communicating and, and, and showing them various case studies and, and so on and so forth.

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And it was wonderful because when I went to January of this year, I got to meet many of those who are now,

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you know, they're the ones who are teaching others, and they've been doing really a lot of great, great work.

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So I was very surprised because I was coming to Tunisia with this idea that, you know, this is a country that's had, you know,

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such great laws and such great environment and culture for women, um, in,

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in general in society, but also within the labour movement, there was mistake.

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I was mistaken. There's that state feminism again, hitting the reality on the ground the day today.

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Um, and by the way, went, uh, Tunisia.

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And I know, Kat, you know, about the, the internet, the national organisations, the women, uh, Tunisian women's organisations.

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It's a very active and so on and so forth. So the labour movement plays in that field where there is a, there's a vibrant, um, civil society.

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Okay. We started working with them.

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We did a lot of work. Um, and, um, I want to point out to 2008,

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just because there was a major protest in the phosphate industry in the mines in Gaza, which is in southern Tunisia.

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And the women played a very important role, even though they weren't literally in the mines,

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but they were protecting, um, their husbands, their fathers,

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their brothers, and they were definitely protecting them against the authorities who are coming,

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uh, you know, to, to violently, violently put down their strike.

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Um, so I just want you to remember 2008 because again, please.

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And I know I'm in a, in a, in a, in an environment and an audience here that definitely knows that 2011 didn't just start like that,

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that there were many, many, many years of things boiling under the surface.

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Um, in all of these countries, I mean, we can go country by country in the region.

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Um, that could then point to. Okay. We were just waiting.

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When was it, you know, was it going to erupt?

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Um, and 20 end of 2010, 2011 was was the time.

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So 2008 was that point in Tunisia. Uh, when they had a lot of uprisings.

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So we we all know the revolution. 20 on that 2011 struggle opened a lot of opportunities and challenges.

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Um, they were organising marches and protests and and so on.

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And they were threatened, though, by a new conservative Islamist proposals.

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And that's where we see things start to get interesting, interesting and a bit difficult.

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I'm going to show you some photos. Lots of lots of photos here.

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This one in particular. I think you've seen it before. This was 2012.

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This young woman actually got a prize. She was awarded a sort of a state prize because of her her courage to stand up to basically, um.

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Yes, someone with an ISIS flag.

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Um, and basically telling him off, he was he was trying to bring down the Tunisian flag and to fly, um, the, the ISIS flag.

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So, um, and then here is, um, August 2013, Tunisian Women's Day.

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Um, they organised a major, major protest. Now, why at this time, you had another.

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Another was the Islamist, uh, political party led by revolution.

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Uh, who, you know, now, after 2011 political party started to to, you know, to, to to show, to grow up, to be there on the scene.

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Uh, there were many, many of them. But the Islamists, of course, were the most and the best organised.

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Um, and they propose that in the deliberations for a new constitution that they were going to change some sections,

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um, in this Constitution that has been ever since 1956, 59, 59.

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Yeah. And, um, and one of them was that women were equal or equal to men.

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That was literally the second paragraph within the Constitution.

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The Islamists had a proposal that they were going to put complement, remove equal and put complement.

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Now you might say, well, that's not such a big deal. No, it is a big deal.

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It is a big deal. And so Tunisian women, and particularly within the labour movement, they started to organise.

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They started to organise. And of course Women's Day was a very important um, day, um, to do so.

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And um, they succeeded. They won.

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They won the fight. And today the Constitution still says equal.

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Um, I'm going to tell you more about, um, some of the sort of the themes from the interviews that I,

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that I conducted and particularly regarding the Saudi opening relitigating the Constitution.

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Um, and reopening doors that had already been closed or things that are already been settled.

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There was no today. I mean, that's the kind of the interesting thing to come back sort of ten years after

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or more like 13 years after and to be able to sit down and sort of think,

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take a moment, take a pause and see, gosh, what did I wish I had known, you know,

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13 years ago and what I wish we had not done or what road we should not have gone down.

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And that's what I was able to do, uh, with them. I'm moving along here.

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2015 the Nobel Peace Prize was actually, um, awarded to for um, civil society organisation.

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And the city was one of them because they played such an incredible role in

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leading the country and basically putting the politician's feet to the fire,

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if you will, in terms of, um, I mean, literally, they were in a conference room,

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they closed the door and they said, you're not leaving until there is a plan.

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There's a plan forward. Um, and.

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Order for us to reach elections. And Tunisia also, um, went about it.

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We all thought us in the political science, but oh, they're going about it the right way in the sense of,

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um, start with the framework, start with the Constitution first, and then move from that to elections.

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And then also gives you a period of time for political parties to organise for people again,

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to breathe a breath of fresh air and to sort of understand what the issues were, uh, compared,

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if you look at Egypt, for example, they literally within one year they were having elections,

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you know, and again, this, this very the speed, the speed, um, is not always advisable if you will.

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So, um, so here we are. You know, Tunisia was sort of checking the boxes, if you will, about how, um, how to proceed with this type of transition.

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Okay. So that was that was a very important moment for the labour movement.

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Again, in leadership with the basically the equivalent of the Chamber of commerce,

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with business, with the um, Human Rights League and with the Lawyers Lawyers Association.

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Now you're probably wondering, okay, what about and why was it from 1951 until 2017 within the labour movement,

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you think the labour movement is this progressive force, this progressive movement?

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Why has it taken so long for women to have positions of leadership, even though, by the way, they represent about 55% of the membership?

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So you think, well, we can we can spend a few hours in the sense of, again, we are dealing with some conservative.

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Some rural values that are difficult to change.

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They're difficult to change. You can't I always say you can't legislate behaviour.

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You really cannot. You can. You can encourage.

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But you you know, but in terms of someone's behaviour and someone's thinking, you can't make a law and then they suddenly change.

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So um, so the women, um, went developed a campaign and they weren't they got a lot of assistance partners and struggle

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partners in decision because we're with you in the struggle we have been ever since,

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you know, 1948. But we also want to be with you when you make decisions.

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And so thanks to that campaign, which, by the way,

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was supported by several other organisations from outside of the country as well as inside, they finally got a vote to pass a 20% quota.

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Let's stop here for a moment. Quotas. Double edged sword.

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You know, you can have a quota and you say, okay, but you got there because of the quota, you know, and that kind of takes away a bit of your joy.

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It takes a bit away of your achievement, if you will, you know.

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And um, so, you know, some of the women were like, uh, you know, we've worked way too hard.

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Did we have to go down that road? And some would say, well, it's only temporary.

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It's just to get us into those positions. Well, we could then be role models, and then we can show that we can be good, responsible leaders.

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And some said, you know what? Whatever way it's served, we're going to take it.

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So today there is a quota. Now, I know we've been a lot of debates.

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I know in other countries, in the United States and elsewhere about this whole issue of a quota, you know,

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and some really wish and hope that it's temporary, that it could then be removed after a certain point.

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But for now it's there and it has been implemented.

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And they are now at every level of the union leadership because unions are national.

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And then you have the individual union you have leadership within.

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And then you have on a province level, okay, where you'll have union leadership there as well.

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Okay. And there's all sort of inter.

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Um, it's actually like a little, little, little government if you look at it sort of state, county and, and municipal.

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So as well as national. Um, so here we are.

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We are now at a point where, um, they are in, in these positions.

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Okay. And, um, it's, um, I'm, I'm going to share that the stories.

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I think that that would be best now to, to move on to that, because then I think it becomes more, um, more interesting.

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Let's see here because I love I love to tell stories. So I met with agricultural workers education, education.

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We're talking teachers and university professors. Oh, by the way, when I was at the airport, I was asked, you're a teacher?

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Yes, university, I said yes. That was the only question I was asked by the because by the passport control is what I did for a living was interesting.

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And also I should I should tell you a story. Um, the next day I had my first meeting was with the head of the newspaper.

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The usually has a fabulous newspaper. It's called The Shop the People, and it is sold in the kiosks in the streets.

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All right. Every Friday there's a new edition. They have a big section on football, otherwise known as soccer.

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Uh, you know, they they they have poetry. They have news.

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I mean, it's really wonderful, my friend who is with me, who I've known since 1994,

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she was one of the ladies sitting next to me, whispering in my ear, you know, today you hear she doesn't whisper anymore.

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Um, she gets a text message from a friend of hers in the security service.

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She has to have friends. Okay? That's the way you operate.

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You have to have friends. And the fellow. Right?

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Story says, do you have a guest, um, from Jordan with you?

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And she said no. And the nice thing is you answer them yes or no, you don't.

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She said no because I'm not from Jordan. And then he goes, are you sitting in Al-Shabaab headquarters?

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Yes. And then she tells me and I said, please give him my name, give him my business card.

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I mean, I have nothing to hide. Tell him everything.

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And if he wants to meet me, no problem.

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I've learned this over the years that, you know, you just do that because they used to come to these workshops,

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they being security service and, you know, they wear these black leather jackets even when it's 100 degrees outside.

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So anyway, yeah, I have fond memories, you know, in Jordan in particular, you know, I just okay, um,

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and you give them tea and coffee and you give them the packets for the materials, you know, for the workshop.

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Everything. Anyway, so, um, so after she responded and said, you know, yes, she's this so she's a professor that he said, oh, okay.

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Thank you very much. And that was the end of it. And I didn't bother after that.

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But anyway, medical and health workers, mining workers, social workers are very interesting because they're government employees.

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Um, the geographic area was also pretty broad in terms of Basra, which is in the North Celina Gulf, so which is in the south, Monastir and Tunis.

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So, um, different voices.

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What I did was, is I, I came up with about nine points that came as a thread or themes, if you will, from my conversations with them.

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Very first one loss of time and trust.

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It's like, yeah, why? Why did we go down that rabbit hole in terms of Relitigating reopening the Constitution?

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Okay. And it made sense at the time. You need a new constitution.

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It's 2011. You know, you need to, uh, from from 1959, which the days of labour.

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But the thing is, is it all reopened? Debates on citizenship, identity, faith, women's role in society that have long been established and accepted.

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Now, when you're in the middle of it, of course you're you're participating, you're fighting your so on.

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But now, 13 years later, you can sit down and say, what did we do?

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What a waste of time. Um, and also in this relitigating, you open up wounds, you open up bad feelings and tensions and so on and so forth.

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So that was the first one. I would say every single one of them said the same thing.

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Next, a positive one that the revolution actually opened doors of opportunity.

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And that included within the labour movement in the sense that today they are organising more workers,

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they are able to sort of use that as a point of departure.

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Um, so, you know, sort of that that's the sort of renewed interest, renewed excitement, hope.

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Oh my goodness. We can achieve, we can do all these great things.

316
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Um, absolutely. 2011 was was that for them?

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Okay. Um, women were now getting new leadership positions.

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Absolutely. Um, due to the change in the structure and the bylaws.

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And that's because of the quotas. Okay. So again, that was, uh, a positive.

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And, um, they appreciated that very much.

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Fourth point confirmation, um, that the women and leaders and rank and file members were involved in every minor and major protest.

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I mean, my goodness, they would give me lists of all the events they helped organise,

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the things that they were, you know, marching in and the protests and so forth.

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So, you know, and they were definitely they made their presence known.

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And that was confirmed over and over again. The reference to 2008 took off.

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Some was repeated several times in the sense of, please, let's not forget,

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this is where, you know, the initial step began that led to, uh, 2010, 2011.

328
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Okay. Societal divisions. They still exist.

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The ladies of the salon who are very active in the in the associate category.

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You're nodding your head.

331
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You know that the ladies who are involved in the political organisation, this, this charities, the, you know, the sort of civil society and so forth.

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Women working in the labour movement or working and members of unions, different class.

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Um, and there are some bridges.

334
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And I did talk to some women who felt that they were a bridge.

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Um, and it kind of were more the, um, the profession like a doctor, uh,

336
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a doctor or a journalist or an engineer that could make that bridge, if you will.

337
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But as we know, those societal splits definitely do exist.

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All right. Now, even though Tunisia.

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Now, by the way, I mean, I think you all know today Tunisia is not in a very good spot.

340
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Okay. I mean, that's why focusing on Tunisia as being sort of this great first wonderful.

341
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And for and for several years, actually two, uh, presidential elections and so forth.

342
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Today Tunisia has. Can I is it fair to say so, our champion president.

343
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Yeah. Oh, yes. Okay. All right.

344
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Yeah. And, um, so it's sort of like, uh, that's another reason as to why Tunisia,

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that I was very, um, for me, very important to to spend some time and focus on it.

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So the interviewees, though they felt the stronger bond with their organisation, with the utility,

347
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even though the utility, we have to be honest and frank, their leadership were dragging their feet.

348
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They were not always they were like, oh, you have a women's committee.

349
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That's perfectly fine, isn't it? You can stay and play your women's committee.

350
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Come on, you know. And it wasn't from 1982 when it was founded.

351
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It wasn't until 1991 that it actually became a constituent body within the organisation.

352
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All right. And then 2017 is when they finally, you know, pushed for the quota.

353
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And now we actually have three members of the Executive Council who.

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Women. Okay. Very competent women. And by the way, women are very keen on saying don't look at me just because I'm a woman.

355
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I'm also very competent. Okay. So they don't want this.

356
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Oh, you just got that job or that position because you're a woman.

357
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And I'll give you some examples. So anyway. But despite, you know, sort of old family in the family kind of having these disgruntled moments,

358
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if you will, there's still a very strong bond between leaders,

359
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between and within the organisation itself, just because it's fighting a bigger fight,

360
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and particularly the economic situation of Tunisia today is very difficult.

361
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Um, as well as the political okay, so it's important to kind of maintain, um, a united front.

362
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Uh, the quota system, pretty much everyone I talked to at least thought it was okay.

363
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And today the utility, very sadly, is a target of the government's ire and retaliation.

364
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If you have noticed, in the last two years, there have been arrests.

365
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Imprisonments. Um, my goodness. They even arrested a European Trade Union leader who came from the see the European Union Confederation.

366
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We have a lot of acronyms in the labour movement, but, um, she came to lend support, if you will, and sort of give a speech next day.

367
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She was told she had to leave the country. Which actually touchwood is is a good thing because you know otherwise.

368
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Otherwise. Right. So anyways. So yeah, she packed her bags and left.

369
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So they have become now more of a target. Which by the way, they laugh and say, huh?

370
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We know we've been in that position before in the sense that they've been, you know, in that ever since during whatever, during Ben Ali.

371
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And here they are today. All right. I'm going to tell you about, um, 5 or 6 women versus Monia.

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I'm sorry, I'm not going to give you last names, but, um, just to to protect them.

373
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Monia is a teacher. She's an English teacher. She started out, though,

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in university because university in the 70s and the 80s was definitely a place where you became very active protests for justice and civil rights.

375
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So for her, it was a clear choice once she graduated to join the university and continue in that struggle and activism,

376
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she's going to be retiring, uh, in a in two months.

377
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And, um, we talked about life after retirement.

378
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So she's going to be busy. Uh, and Munya is from Basia.

379
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Basia. And she, she wrote a wonderful report, actually, about women's activism within, within the labour movement that she shared with me.

380
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Nala. Nala worked works for the Union of Social Workers.

381
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She's a regional trainer. She is now an assistant secretary general of the provincial um utility of an area called Monastir.

382
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She's a member of the women's committee.

383
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It's it's very interesting because social workers, she gets to deal with and hear a lot of stories of marginalised people and difficult situations.

384
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,640
So she's very used to that. Um, she's been elected now for a second term.

385
00:38:55,850 --> 00:39:03,259
She's single, divorced and a mom of one daughter, and she told me some wonderful stories about what her daughter has been doing.

386
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:09,919
And, um, because, you know, daughter came with her to, with, uh, you know, at all the protests and, um, and so forth.

387
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:16,610
So that's Nala. Najwa. Now, she was with the doctors union, health care and Tunis, the province and the city.

388
00:39:17,090 --> 00:39:25,460
Uh, again, she's the one who was spent quite a bit of time talking about how reopening and relitigating the Constitution was such a waste of time.

389
00:39:25,790 --> 00:39:31,010
She did spend, though, uh uh, while talking about the apathy that has since developed.

390
00:39:31,310 --> 00:39:35,090
We're talking about today because remember, we were reminiscing, all right.

391
00:39:35,090 --> 00:39:41,630
But we were also talking about today. Today either, you know, being January, February, March, April, now of this year.

392
00:39:42,050 --> 00:39:49,760
Um, people are exhausted, they're tired, they're hungry, they're unemployed and going to protest.

393
00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:55,820
They're not really seeing that. That's very useful and a feeling that it really doesn't matter anymore.

394
00:39:56,300 --> 00:40:04,340
Um, in terms of real change. But she said she would go to the meetings of the, uh, the union, uh, leadership.

395
00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:11,360
They would hold them in sometimes in bars. Yes, they have bars, or they would hold them in cafes.

396
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:17,510
Where. And I know this, by the way, cafes, they're, um, mostly men, um, mostly men.

397
00:40:17,810 --> 00:40:24,920
And, um, she would go. She would go and make them feel very embarrassed to share this, this wonderful photo.

398
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,440
This is the usually it is flag, by the way. Very much in the middle of it.

399
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:34,590
The Bayes net zero university professor, and she's from the town of Gaza.

400
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:42,660
I spent, I think, the most time with her. She had a lot to talk about from 2008 and the mining phosphate mining strikes there.

401
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:49,200
And, um, she's the one who said that the very first time she had to go to a meeting, and she was so excited.

402
00:40:49,410 --> 00:40:56,280
She goes to this cafe, it was all men. She sits down and the men all look at her, and it's sort of like, what are you doing here?

403
00:40:56,580 --> 00:41:04,080
And she said, I belong. I'm a member. And I think it was so embarrassed again, because of the environment, the milieu, you know,

404
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:10,440
that she said that the next meeting was held at the usual headquarters because they just they couldn't handle it.

405
00:41:10,650 --> 00:41:16,710
They couldn't handle that a woman was sitting with them at this sort of male only, um, venue.

406
00:41:17,070 --> 00:41:23,460
So, um, so anyway, she's, she's quite the, quite that this is, um, a bit from the fabulous photo.

407
00:41:23,470 --> 00:41:27,810
Actually, this is from the New York Times. Um, excellent article about the women.

408
00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:37,230
They basically formed a barricade to, um, prevent the security forces from from shutting down, um, the phosphate industry.

409
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,000
Uh, by the way, phosphate industries are very dirty business. I mean, it it infects the water.

410
00:41:42,210 --> 00:41:48,780
It's very polluting. It's a it's a really and this is an area that was, um, very much, very much neglected.

411
00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:56,430
Um, we talked quite a bit about the dual jobs, the job at work, the job at home, um, and having to, um,

412
00:41:56,430 --> 00:42:03,660
to keep up with both and sort of the very masculine culture that exists in Gaza in particular, um, and then society.

413
00:42:03,810 --> 00:42:11,280
But she had a lovely statement. She said, if we feminised trade union work, we can make it more efficient and more beautiful.

414
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:19,799
It just, um, I know maybe it sounded better in Arabic, but, um, but in the sense that, you know, sort of women's participation,

415
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:27,540
women's presence can make something actually more efficient because we know how to get things done as well as make it more beautiful.

416
00:42:28,830 --> 00:42:31,890
I'll. I'll leave that to you. Let me know what you think.

417
00:42:32,850 --> 00:42:35,790
Um, Nadia. Nadia was, uh, the last, um.

418
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:44,500
And she's in the agricultural sector again, opening up a lot of opportunities to organise to bring in these women that generally worked.

419
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,120
These are women who do not read or write. Many, actually.

420
00:42:48,450 --> 00:42:51,960
Uh, they work out. They have long hours. They work in the fields.

421
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,550
They're picking olives. Olives. Very.

422
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,590
By the way, I mean, Tunisia is one of the largest, right?

423
00:42:58,890 --> 00:43:02,280
Um, uh, oil, uh, olive oil producers. Yes.

424
00:43:03,310 --> 00:43:07,090
But she's now Nadia now is a member of the national union's executive committee.

425
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,760
I have some wonderful photos from her. Um, where?

426
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:17,860
She's going to their places of work to talk to the women, to tell them about their rights, to tell them about joining the union.

427
00:43:18,070 --> 00:43:21,440
Look at this truck. It's a pickup truck. I don't know if they call you.

428
00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:26,550
Call them pickup trucks in the UK, too? Yes. Um, but that's how they would transport them.

429
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,120
They would wait in the morning, early morning, and women would, would, would pile into these pickup trucks.

430
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,720
Not safe in terms of, um, modes of travel.

431
00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:38,500
This is a it's the little fella.

432
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:42,190
It's the little. We'll see the two tops. They are without any coverage.

433
00:43:42,190 --> 00:43:46,540
They didn't have Social Security coverage, i.e. health care.

434
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:51,170
Um, they're being taken advantage of here.

435
00:43:51,310 --> 00:43:55,210
Beautiful. The the the agricultural worker.

436
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:05,710
This is all lives right here. And I have other photos that show a lot of injury on her hands picking, uh, and working in in the in the fields.

437
00:44:06,070 --> 00:44:13,420
Yes. There's one here in the in the middle. Um, and to recognise that this is a profession, this is a job.

438
00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:16,780
A work that needs to be covered and taken care of.

439
00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:21,819
Where is the social coverage? Meaning the social protection.

440
00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:30,160
Meaning health care for these women? There are there are, of course, there's a lot of other agricultural pursuits in Tunisia.

441
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,180
This is a wonderful photo. She's holding her first her union card.

442
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,730
I don't know if those of you who know that when you belong to a union, you have a card.

443
00:44:40,570 --> 00:44:47,830
Uh, and it is a very proud thing to to have when you're a member of something bigger than yourself, of a collective.

444
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:53,020
Well, all of you together are working to improve your conditions of work.

445
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,780
Okay, I know this is. This is the card up close.

446
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:04,560
Okay, here we go. This is another one. These are olive olive trees right there.

447
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:10,660
This is one of my favourites. I think you've seen this before because I used to rule the 8th of March.

448
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:17,410
Yes. Um, just because, you know, she's, you know, looking down a little bit, a little bit embarrassed.

449
00:45:17,420 --> 00:45:23,899
This is a workshop that they had. You notice there's no paper on the desks because, you know, we're talking, we're talking.

450
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:27,200
We're we're working with them. We're telling they're telling us stories.

451
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,780
We're telling them stories. But, um. But anyway, these are absolutely lovely.

452
00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:36,550
Okay. Some concluding remarks. All right.

453
00:45:36,590 --> 00:45:43,080
Tunisia in itself, the nature of the country, its people, its history, its aversion to violence.

454
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:52,340
Actually, our colleague Michael Willis has written quite a bit, um, about this, um, aspect in the sense of their attachment to legal processes.

455
00:45:52,610 --> 00:45:58,580
Right. Very important. And it explains their success, if you will, in terms of civil resistance.

456
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,839
And I love this quote. I've heard it too. I know Michael's heard it as well.

457
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,950
We had the revolution on Friday. We went back to work on Monday.

458
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:19,550
So, um, top down feminist policies this we can have a long discussion in terms of the clash with conservative religious cultural values,

459
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:27,889
the backlash, something top down versus organic coming from the bottom up and maybe meeting the top down.

460
00:46:27,890 --> 00:46:29,390
So you kind of need both.

461
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:40,340
But it's a long road, a long road, and it's come back to haunt, if you will, the progressive movement, um, particularly starting in 2011 to 2014,

462
00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:49,400
um, women have been participating in every possible organisation, but particularly in the city, particularly in the labour movement.

463
00:46:49,610 --> 00:46:53,120
They've been doing that ever since it was founded in 1948.

464
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,370
And they will keep dissipating. They're a little tired. They're a little exhausted.

465
00:46:58,370 --> 00:47:03,860
Maybe they need a respite, they need a rest. And they we had that when we sat together.

466
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:11,320
Um, but they're ready. They're ready to go back to work. Because today I think Tunisia, more than anything they said this to that.

467
00:47:11,330 --> 00:47:15,950
They need to have an active, robust civil society.

468
00:47:15,950 --> 00:47:20,870
And the labour movement, 1 million members strong is very much a part of that.

469
00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:24,460
It plays a political role. They're not shy from telling you that they.

470
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:28,520
Yes. Yes, they play a political role.

471
00:47:28,820 --> 00:47:34,190
They absolutely do. Because, you know, a lot of times unions will say, oh, no, no, you know, we we kind of stay away from politics.

472
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:38,540
Oh no, no, no. That will they're they're in the middle because it's very important.

473
00:47:38,990 --> 00:47:44,930
They got a Nobel Prize for peace for playing a very important political role, actually.

474
00:47:45,350 --> 00:47:53,060
Um, we can also argue maybe also, the UK has been a member of international labour organisations for decades.

475
00:47:53,510 --> 00:48:00,110
That pressure of being members of international organisations where we talk about, you know,

476
00:48:00,110 --> 00:48:05,750
women's participation, whether it's at the ILO, the International Labour Organisation or the others.

477
00:48:06,050 --> 00:48:08,570
That's a very interesting angle to look at.

478
00:48:08,990 --> 00:48:15,680
Uh, you know, because a lot of times in the labour movement, we tend to be very little club ish in the sense of,

479
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,130
oh, if you don't fit all the criteria, we don't you can't be a member.

480
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,440
But maybe, say, our members, we can put pressure on them on some of these organisations.

481
00:48:24,650 --> 00:48:31,910
I guess we can take it case by case. But the Tunisians very much vouch they value being a part of the international community.

482
00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:39,530
Um, and when the ILO comes out and says this is the year for women, labour, more trade union members,

483
00:48:39,530 --> 00:48:46,099
they want to participate and they want to and they have to show what, um, you know, what they have.

484
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:50,180
So there's some added pressure there. And the quota, of course. Well, the jury's still out.

485
00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:57,200
Many of the women said, you know, in terms of its success, the jury's still out because it's only been a few years.

486
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,910
And, um, we shall see. But so far, positive.

487
00:49:02,330 --> 00:49:06,590
And let's make the best out of it. It's sort of the the the attitude.

488
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:12,290
So, um, thank you very much for joining me.

489
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:18,770
Thank.