It's a great pleasure and an honour to have Professor Ali Municipality come today to discuss his recent book, which everyone has seen.
Just before we begin the meeting proper to say that there are some copies of this book at the back, and it is being sold at a knockdown price of £10.
Oh, so it's a real bargain. Um, for those of you who don't want to take the plunge today, there are some leaflets, uh,
about the book, which would also get you a 30% discount should you choose to use it, because the price.
So it's it's not a for sale with upfront.
Of course everybody is familiar I think with professor uh Mr. Passes work.
Uh so I'm not going to to read out all his books and publications because it would take us too long just to begin.
He is Albert Gallatin, Research Excellence professor of Middle East and Islamic Studies at NYU,
director of the Hager Cavalcanti Centre for Near Eastern Studies, and director of Iranian Studies Initiative.
Also at NYU professor municipality was a 2007 2009 Carnegie Scholar and is the co-editor with Austin at the time of the Global Middle East,
a book series published by Cambridge University Press. Many books on the political and philosophical basis of Iranian modernity,
most recently the author of Iran's Quiet Revolution The Downfall of the Pahlavi State and,
as I mentioned, many other books on the politics of of Iran, public intellectuals and, uh, and their political biographies.
Uh, so without more do I think we can pass on to the subject of our meeting tonight.
And of course, everyone has been watching the news and knows what is happening,
or perhaps doesn't know what's happening as a result of watching the news,
we did discuss what extent we would like to give people the opportunity to talk about the current situation in Iran.
Um, because obviously a very serious crisis. But on the other hand, we would like to give professor his book.
It's due in terms of time and attention.
So we'll we'll try to be quite flexible and, and, and obviously whatever people want to discuss is, is, is is okay.
But I think I'm going to begin by asking professor Minister Patsy simply the famous question, why this book and why now?
Thank you, Stephanie. And, um, I should also thank the the staff at the centre for organising the event and you for inviting me to give a talk.
And of course, things are happening. You and I talk last week.
Um, um, this sort of emergence of new campus student activism.
Uh, the, uh, you know, a couple of chapters of my book actually covers that issue.
And now, uh, the the, uh, we are following, uh, what happened has happened in the past, uh, a couple of days.
But, um, to respond to you is that five, five, six years ago, I started this project with my colleague.
I was young and value of thinking of putting together an edited volume on the Iranian revolution,
but in a little different way that we conventionally think of Iranian Revolution, or at least in these scholarly settings we studied.
And that is that if it is true that the revolution.
Was made possible by people who were grow up in Iran in at least the two decades before the revolution.
Why can't we do a comprehensive study of life in Iran prior to revolution?
And we gather a group of 1213 scholars.
So this was an active. You know, we had several workshops, um, in-person meetings.
This was before we knew there was such a thing called zoom.
And people kept telling me that when you participated in Revolution and you lived in Iran in the two decades before revolution.
And they kept asking me to write. My piece about my own life, and I felt that was ridiculous.
I actually, I'm a private person. I don't believe in mixing up personal and scholarly work, but.
As people keep insisting I have to do this. I just realise I don't have argument against it because for a long time I made these arguments that.
When we speak of Iranian revolution, we usually, uh, what we mean is really Islamic Republic.
And mixing of these two is not fair to the topic, and it's not fair to a diversity of people who participate in that ownership.
And I agreed to write a chapter, which is really the chapter two, uh, in this book.
And that is my last three years of high school in Copenhagen.
And the reason I did this, because I felt that as I studied memoirs, autobiographies, oral histories of the Revolution.
I realise that it's heavily down based. And I felt that as important as Karen is, we need to expand the history of Iranian revolution.
In terms of space, not just, uh, of course, uh, history is always very important,
but to just focus on Tehran just gives a fragment of the actual history.
And to be honest with you, uh, of course, I was also very, um, anxious.
I had no experience of writing my memoir and sharing it with the public.
I begin writing that chapter, and I realised that it's not really my mental.
Everything I'm writing about involves other people.
How fair is it that I just have the exclusive rights of writing?
Really? My opinion about everyone and everything.
I wrote that piece, which is part of the global Iranian revolution that was published,
and I felt, oh, good, I don't have to write more about, uh, my own story.
But the friends and colleagues who read this, they push.
Asking me or encouraging me or just. Just pushing me on the wall.
Uh, so that I write this.
Um, but at the same time, I realise I really realised this while I was doing research for the the chapter in the other book that.
What no recall memoirs or autobiographies about revolutions are not really about revolutions.
Many of them are over that at least described as confessional statements about how horrible
and how stupid it was to participate in either the radical movements or the revolution,
and so on and so forth, which, of course,
everybody has the right to say those things that I felt that one need to be respectful of their own memories.
I didn't think that when I was a teenager in high school or when I was at Rowan University,
uh, since I didn't know what will happen after change, I was very much excited.
Those were really great days. In addition to thinking that maybe I have something to add to the history of Iran in the 60s and 70s,
maybe later 60s or certainly 70s in terms of living and being from very small towns.
I felt that I will try to see if I can tell this story.
And be, you know, Politicker has this book that now is one of my really a book that each time I think of it inspires me.
The book, I think it's called history, Memory and Forgetfulness.
And. The reason I read that book is that there is a chapter in the book that talks about memory and fact.
How can one. Uh, rely on her or his memory.
Uh, how can can be three memories as history.
And his argument is that in recollecting our memories or writing about our memories.
We need to just realise that memories do not reflect facts necessarily.
We should not try to, um, to represent our memories as objective realities, but we need to respect our memories.
And the time that he uses that I really like is he says we need to be faithful to our memories.
And so it's not the math. The memory is what recollecting memories is not about being objective, but it's about.
Faithfulness, and I felt that many of the literature out there,
unfortunately or not particularly people of my age and people who I actually, I feel I.
I know very well. And these, um.
Memory making, um, is really insult to individuals.
But as I said. Because our focus, personal memories involves communities and individuals and ideas that are not just our own.
This whole business of memory making is also installed in those communities and individuals and values.
It was not until I concluded that I think I can write something that Michel Foucault called it counter memory.
You know, I would like to use the term uh, counter uh, memoir, which is that if an important event, say, such as Iranian revolution,
although I don't want to limit my book or representation of my book as a book about revolution is really a book about six years,
seven life as I experience it in the 60s and 70s in Iran, with particular attention to the small towns.
I felt that. There are lots of voices and areas of Iran's, um, history that is not represented,
or there is an active effort for us to forget certain, uh, ideas, certain experiences.
Uh, that's when I, I felt that I can I can write more on my memoir and feel good about it.
Although I have to say that writing it was the most painful experience of my life.
And, uh, my wife, I have to say that everyday told me that to stop.
Don't write this. And, um, it's nerve breaking experience, I have to say, because I remember what I remember.
I did lots of research. I check and cross-check with anyone available, but I give one example of the dilemma at least I had in writing my memoir.
Someone who was at some point a very close friend of mine.
Or I would say that early on I saw her as my mentor and role model.
Whom are not here. The historian who.
Then I was at her own university. She was really my role model.
Right. And later on, we.
We became very close. We were part of a political organisation.
And then in, um, after the revolution, I had very close, uh, both political affiliations and that were,
uh, we were part of one a small group and the, uh, what we did.
But. She has written, not she.
I don't think she has written a book or a memoir, but she has done lots of interviews and written a small pieces.
And almost all of them. I feel our memory making.
At least those parts that I know very well. So it was a huge struggle for me.
What would one do? Would you just write that command out?
That is not telling the truth? Is this the job of a memoir to talk about other people not being truthful?
Because I didn't I didn't start writing my memoir for, you know, this was this is this for me.
This is like policing the truth.
I that. No, this is not my job. But to go back to portray her.
I also felt that I have to be faithful to my memoir.
So I write 2 or 3 cases where I personally have interaction with human author, and I do it briefly because emotionally I couldn't do it.
To be honest with you, I think logically I should have written more.
There was no, I don't think ethically it would, uh, if I'm allowed to do this, but emotionally I couldn't.
But there is lots of this.
The similar stories that, um, you struggle with, you have to make a decision one way or another.
But I think at the end I was able to write a memoir that I can honestly say is a a counter memoir.
Some comments I have received already. For some.
Uh, others who have read this have described it as as a, um, as a, um.
So just say it bluntly. As a true Islamic Republic book.
It's at the end for some reason that I don't understand.
Uh, some folks think that at the end my memo comes celebrating the revolution.
I think what I have tried to do, I hope I can talk more about this today that, um,
as far as I know, uh, there was no way I could have predicted what will happen.
IBM and Revolution that I participated in.
I think, um. I write about this as I experience it.
Um, it's not that all of it is positive.
It is what it is. But. In Iran.
The security forces have.
Called publishers the. I have published my work before, and they have let them know that this is a probe of how.
You write something and people interpret it. It's a pro.
I am a pro bono agent and this is what this book does.
That is that there is a two page. And I would say perhaps 2 or 3 pages.
Of when I was in college were probably gone in high school, and I was recruited without knowing it by what I know know to be undervalued.
Um, at the time, um.
I was told this is an one, and I wanted to recruit me to bomb a, a, um,
a chemistry high school teacher that we had and was behind so that that he and his family would leave the, um, um.
I was convinced that maybe the fact that I have had this experience of living in 4 or 5
different small towns and becoming an intellectual and activist and political person,
I felt I was introduced to what we now call political Islam in the 60.
And then I went to Tehran. This is in the 70s.
And people beginning to say, oh, it seems that Islamists are being active.
I thought I already had experienced this few years and previous.
Sorry. I try to be very brief after that.
I remember the 2 or 3 pages about the Baha'i incident.
And it's quite short your description of it, but it does seem to have been a turning point for you.
Judging by what you say in the book, in the sense that it alerted you to all the possible ways in which a movement for radical change could go wrong,
do you think that it played that role for you? What was it like? Um.
For those of you who have read the book, I hope the summary I want to give makes sense.
For others, it would be. It would take a long time.
It would take me a long time to explain this. But the idea of being from a small towns.
I'm not really from a small towns. None of these towns that we lived.
My closest friends. In elementary school, in middle school, in high school, they always told me that you are not of us.
You are Horace G. Uh, you are from out of town.
And my mother would always say that our family has pain of war.
But we are very big, right?
I was born in a town called my lawyer. I wasn't even three when we left Malaya.
So I could never, ever claim to be from my mother.
Yet I don't believe them. In fact, that my my father was a civil servant.
Every 2 or 3 years we just moved to another city.
But I was I had there was this deep yearning in me that I wanted a home.
I did really good things and horrible things so that one of these community would accept me.
By the time I was in Copenhagen, I realised this is not going to work.
If you are not from a place, you cannot claim the place.
So I moved to a sport, arts and political activism.
And I felt very comfortable. But in gold.
Pagan, um, a very religious, uh, town, but by religious in mean, very politically religious place.
I converted I'd become a a very pious, um,
young boy who would correct my parents and my sister and my brothers on their behaviours all the time, how, you know.
And of course, I was also part of the political, um, environment in the city.
The, uh, of course we didn't use these terms like Islamists, but, uh, in high school in town, they, they, they dominated the town.
By the way, for those of you who know something about God, probably gone after revolutions.
Many of these folks that I knew when I was in high school, including, um,
several in Peter Arbery or from those days of God, probably got East Sofie's, um, stuff is these are all from this town.
And these were not just religious people who were political.
They had connections all over the world.
It's not just outside of Copenhagen, but in the Arab world and so on and so forth.
So I felt that. That I will become, you know, a religious activist.
And in my thinking, I was thinking of the moment that I could get out of high school and control of my parents.
I will go to Palestine. And that incident.
Oh, well, of course I also have. I was sympathetic to what system to.
I have read this wonderful book, Trish, Holly, ash for Her Eyes by Anna VI.
And here and there. There were teachers in previous time with her.
Marxism was dominant among activists. So I had this, um, soft heart for Marxism two.
But I think at the time that I was almost sure that I wanted my future life would be I would be a political activist from a sort of Islamic trend.
I was recruited, recruited by another high school teacher in a bus and, um.
Me and. And then they asked me to bomb.
Well, it wasn't just me and the other high school students to bomb some of these house because he was of Bali.
And by the way, he was a wonderful, perhaps most extremely likeable.
Soft spoken chemistry teacher. And.
This was, I believe this was when I was in 11th grade, I began.
There were other things that was happening too. I was also getting tired of just policing everybody's behaviour.
And I felt that, you know, how can we make a better Iran like this?
But by the time that I went to that on university, I realised that, no, no, I want to go to the other thing.
So it was a landmark in my life too. Uh, Stephanie.
You mentioned at the beginning how many of the people who were active in the
revolution itself later denounced the revelation and issued these confessions,
if you like, about their past? Do you think there was any way in which the revolution could have had a different outcome?
What were the other possibilities which were lost, or opportunities which were missed, which might have meant something different could be managed?
This is a great question. I think my hope is that.
Well, I know that this was my aim in writing this book that for someone like me or anyone.
Else of my generation who lived in Iran.
Um. If you were interested in politics or participated in politics.
The idea that the the estate would collapse that quickly.
I'm talking I'm not talking about people who. Supported the government.
For someone like me, by the time, you know, say, two years before revolution.
I graduated from Tehran University at least.
Personally, I just felt that I have enough information to think that.
I didn't think that what we are doing would lead to the collapse of the Islamic Republic.
And, um. It was so far away from our own mind.
That the kind of discussions we had was.
Would we be happy if the situation gets a little bad?
Um. Nice. Don't France kind of government.
The sharp with us. You know, someone from a, um, national front office or political groups like that to form the government.
Even then, it seems that things were a little not going very well for the government.
Secondly, it I personally for me, it it was not until the end of the summer of 78 that.
I began thinking that. Islamists may take over.
May take over. Not for sure. And among my activist friends or people who have more experience from us, you know, we were debating it.
I don't think that people it was not certain that that something like that would happen.
However. By October of 78.
I'm not trying to justify this. I'm sure there were things that I didn't see.
We were at the at the point that I felt that.
E. Something very tragic is going to happen and nobody can do anything about.
I remember first. Well, I want to be brief here.
In other words, when I was a cop. In fact.
Well, that's what one example is that I think this happened also in October.
That Ayatollah Khomeini issued a announcement and asked university students to go back to their classes.
I remember that everybody was a little confused.
But then I say, everybody, uh, the student activists were.
You know, somewhere leftists or whatever they were, uh,
they were not supporters or at least identify the supporter of Ayatollah Khomeini on the what we now call Islamists.
They're, um, they clearly defined themselves.
It was, you know, who they were. But we were all gathered at Georgetown University campus to see what we want to do.
Um, the spokesperson from the pro Khomeini students basically said he's our leader.
It doesn't really matter what he says. Whatever he says, we need to follow.
And, um, I immediately said, no, this is why we want to get rid of the show.
We don't have someone, you know, we don't just follow someone.
So there was this arguments, and then it was decided that we all gather in a larger space,
which has done this crime really, at the time was almost outside of their on in phalanx.
So the next day. Oh.
So then there was a little chaos, and somehow all of us elected to represent the non-human institutions.
And another guy was elected to represent the the how many folks.
And the idea was that we both make our cases and the students vote.
Even at that time, I knew that there was a risk going on publicly speaking against.
At least this particular announcement was coming, but I think I felt that we can change things.
I talk and this other person talk. At the the spokesperson for probably the folks was not really an intellectual or you know,
I don't want to give myself credit and I actually my job was very easy in a revolutionary situation,
when you go and say that we want to make the decision.
Uh, so most people somehow worked that for me, although there was no motive, just sheer after I talk and.
After these events, I was. I was a stop almost to that.
Uh, by probing these students. And, um.
Taken to hospital survive. For me, the beginning of this is horrible thing is going to happen.
Nobody can do anything. Was reaction of my leftist friends who basically said, well, you are too radical.
You know, Khamenei has all the power, all the resources we have to support them.
I didn't like what they said. I really tried to argue with them, but I was also convinced that there is nothing we can do.
All I tried to do at that point on board was we shouldn't support Toby.
We should not support. She told her mom.
That even mentioning others, which I did, I don't want to go into those details, but people kept saying, oh, it's only me.
Uh, and then I saw, um, I think I discussed this in the book.
Uh, my relatives from other side.
Uh, who are from Laura Stone and in fact, by far more of than my family's from my father's side.
But. My, uh, my maternal.
Uh, relatives, uh, but, uh, tribal people and landowning, um,
the kids or basically mostly I think certainly at the time were leftist, but my, my father is from parish.
Almost all of them work for the government, for the military and for even, uh, royal court.
October, November, or even in some cases a little earlier.
Uh, I realise that people, you know, I don't want to name and will give titles people who have really high position in the government.
Have become supportive of many. Very high, folks.
And people. Who are you? Of course.
None of these folks knew that I was an activist or I was not.
I didn't like this show. Um, no, it was a thunderstorm or hurricane or.
Uh, no, no. What made me, uh, upset, really, really upset was the decision to support the process.
I felt that we should resist. And, um.
Then I insisted a little more.
Then my left. This friend began this associating with me.
That's a very depressing conclusion, I think. Um, and it does in know why your book is a bit like a Greek tragedy.
It's it's happening and everyone knows it's happening, but nobody can do anything to stop it.
Um, what I, I wonder is, what did the reason.
It's not so much a book about the revolution, but a book about the 60s and 70s.
What? What did the 60s and 70s, especially the 70s, mean to you?
What? What do you mean when you say what kind of identity does, uh, that decade have?
I think when it comes to to this book, and particularly now that I think of or as I was thinking of today, uh, look at the book.
There are two things. One is that in some respects I feel that I, I can speak on behalf of my generation, but I just to speak about myself.
I was a product of.
Of. Pahlavi policies under rule in 1670.
Oh, my father was until he died after revolution.
A admirer of my mother's had to be and everything, and that was what life was like, for instance.
Really? I was introduced to Islam in Copenhagen.
Before this, I had never been in a mosque, for instance.
This is what I got into. Moving from cities to cities.
This was not my thinking then. This is my thinking. Not.
My father was. Commissioner of.
Finance Ministry. In these towns.
And my family would only socialise with other officials appointed by.
And in fact, one criticism I always had to face from my family.
What makes you love these natives? And I see the resentments.
No, I didn't see. I just, you know, that that then we were in another town called the town.
I almost killed myself with one family to say, well, don't say you are Carrie or you are Hartig.
I never understood why they could not do this.
Because. I didn't see this power relationship going on.
I can. We can see whole life in a way in brother.
Iran was structured that way. So that's one thing.
And secondly, for someone like me, who.
Love of books and education and just intellectual, historical things I got from my father, actually.
Who was a person of works. But. You know, a young person like me who was interested in also politics and literature and things like this.
Inspiration from the global war.
Was amazing. It is interesting I talk about this on chapter on Terran University.
I was at Terran University School of Law and Political Science, but I was doing political science.
And in fact, my mentor and chair of our department was, I mean, in our yard, who actually, after the revolution came here and died.
And I was very close to him. And he was a professor of, um, political thought.
He offered a class on Western political thought and a class on Islamic political thought.
And I was so frustrated that. I don't know anything about.
Iranian political thought or anything, or Iranian politics, uh, at all.
And some of us asked this question in in class, and professor and I didn't really respond.
But in his office I said this. I said that this is really, um, ridiculous.
We are students of political science. And what I said, I'm not asking you or department to offer.
History political history of contemporary Iran from any particular point of view, it can be from what that world wants you to to say this.
He was for the first time, he told me privately.
That. It is attached to its US order.
Nobody, including faculty members who were member of you know you know, northern Party.
The pro government could not teach about past constitutional revolution.
Certainly not what happened in the 20s. Not what happened during that period or afterward.
This is a systematic effort at forgetfulness.
Forgetfulness. But I think I explained this on chapter on going gone through radios.
Through. Available in newspapers and magazines, for instance.
Some of you. Already know this, but some may be surprised that.
Iranians. Newspapers and magazines basically had free.
Hands in publishing anything about national liberation movements in the world, particularly movements that were anti-American Americans.
Racial tension in U.S. Um, about Palestine, about Latin America.
These were totally okay. And of course.
I remember clearly that, you know, I was in high school and we had these gatherings and reading groups with other high schools,
and we were thinking of, okay, let's imagine you don't.
So we basically didn't know much. We knew about this glorious history of Iran and then Islam, that the routine things that you all know.
But we really didn't know much after the constitutional revolution.
And all we were thinking was, okay, Latin America.
Uh, ideas from the Arab world.
Ideas from Asia that those inspired us.
I know that intellectually, that is what was I was motivated with.
The National was not really that important because I don't know that I think about this.
I think I discussed this in the book. We sort of I at least I feel that what is called Iran is something that still has made up,
and we need the Irish to at least I came to some understanding of what I think Iran is.
Through international today we called global.
Global was the right and, uh, we killed ourselves with some Arabic and English.
We had, um, we would read about ideas, um, say particularly these days because the issue of Gaza and Palestine is important.
Palestine for us was not just injustice is happening.
Palestine was a place where so much ideas came from.
And then you go again, in my case, to university law school.
The most boring place that one can imagine.
You can be. I. I'm doing these projects that you are also part of this.
And I had this conversation with Abbas Amarnath, who was a third on your list of 4 or 5 years prior to me.
Uh, and and he was in actually in a little.
Little bit of a I thought college.
There beyond the literature school.
But this is exactly, like I said, so boring. So nothing was going on because I wanted to know what happened to Ferdy.
He had this fascination with Armada five deep, and he said, this is exactly why.
Because he would say something. Something so.
And he said, how about something that said that I couldn't understand or may look even stupid, but it was something a little different.
But the world was I. I just felt bad that the world's hands were all upon them, you know?
Um, that was the, again, the context of Iran and the context of the world.
And I think Iran won the revolution symbolically.
If you want to talk about this, that, um.
Um. I don't want to use this. Focus on secular versus religion, those kind of things.
But at the end, I felt that we were.
He very strangers. And, um, I think that the struggle is continuing.
So you mentioned the student activism. I mean, you you, uh, acted when you were university.
And we see now, as you mentioned, these this, this activism campus.
What's different now? Because you just mentioned how Palestine was something bigger than Palestine, if you like.
It was much deeper significance. And yet this deeper significance is not often articulated.
So what what is the are they are they different or is it essentially the same, same kind of set of ideas reappearing?
Actually, I have been thinking of this because, you know, I work at NYU in New York,
and in the past four weeks or so, particularly after the university called the police, um.
Uh, the companies have become very political. I actually teach a graduate class.
I have six students. Five of them are Palestinians and two of two come from Gaza and.
And I'm in very close contact with the with the forest users and of course just involved as faculty.
What is going on? Um.
And this is my observation, which, you know, I don't know.
It's not anything deep or new, but this is my observation.
That is that. It is 60, certainly 70s that I can say I was more of, you know, 18, 19 years old and.
An activist my generation, we were.
We I we thought we were fighting against injustice.
And. We just felt that it's our moral obligation to defend or voice or.
Protest against. Um, those who have no power.
But I would say even more than that. We were excited and inspired by ideas that came from from Chile all over in Latin America.
To year. The civil rights movement. I kill myself.
Trying to read a book in English by a civil right.
Leader. To just learn about what he is talking about.
Uh, my English wasn't that good. Um, you know, I had.
Help of friends. And as you said, certainly post time we would read about it.
Palestinian intellectuals or leaders.
So, um, I felt that we we had movements for change, for justice, that both inspired us and also had so much to give us.
My thinking about today is there is the similarity is that these young, um, students have the same feelings about injustice.
And trying to voice their criticism or their, uh, defence of, uh, people of Gaza who are being massacred.
But in terms of a state of mind. I see it is fair.
I think the way at least maybe based on my limited experience.
I think they live more in, um, in a state of despair.
Is that everybody is against them. Everyone is against them.
They are so happy that you know one of these. A student said, oh, they said, you saw us, that it was also some demonstration.
And I was thinking. Then I was that age.
I just assume everybody is protesting.
Um, although I have to say that even myself after Columbia, NYU, when I heard UCLA is.
Okay. Good. I think this is bad time.
This is a maybe my generation or not.
That me or my generation. How did it all into in the end of 70s?
That in them we see an emergence of that of activism and emergence of these the
protest or the a voice of those who want to change things as the outgoing,
um, but is much tougher and harder.
Okay. I think there are some copies of the book in the back if anyone would like to take a look.
Thank you sir.