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It's a great pleasure and an honour to have Professor Ali Municipality come today to discuss his recent book, which everyone has seen.

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Just before we begin the meeting proper to say that there are some copies of this book at the back, and it is being sold at a knockdown price of £10.

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Oh, so it's a real bargain. Um, for those of you who don't want to take the plunge today, there are some leaflets, uh,

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about the book, which would also get you a 30% discount should you choose to use it, because the price.

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So it's it's not a for sale with upfront.

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Of course everybody is familiar I think with professor uh Mr. Passes work.

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Uh so I'm not going to to read out all his books and publications because it would take us too long just to begin.

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He is Albert Gallatin, Research Excellence professor of Middle East and Islamic Studies at NYU,

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director of the Hager Cavalcanti Centre for Near Eastern Studies, and director of Iranian Studies Initiative.

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Also at NYU professor municipality was a 2007 2009 Carnegie Scholar and is the co-editor with Austin at the time of the Global Middle East,

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a book series published by Cambridge University Press. Many books on the political and philosophical basis of Iranian modernity,

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most recently the author of Iran's Quiet Revolution The Downfall of the Pahlavi State and,

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as I mentioned, many other books on the politics of of Iran, public intellectuals and, uh, and their political biographies.

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Uh, so without more do I think we can pass on to the subject of our meeting tonight.

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And of course, everyone has been watching the news and knows what is happening,

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or perhaps doesn't know what's happening as a result of watching the news,

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we did discuss what extent we would like to give people the opportunity to talk about the current situation in Iran.

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Um, because obviously a very serious crisis. But on the other hand, we would like to give professor his book.

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It's due in terms of time and attention.

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So we'll we'll try to be quite flexible and, and, and obviously whatever people want to discuss is, is, is is okay.

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But I think I'm going to begin by asking professor Minister Patsy simply the famous question, why this book and why now?

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Thank you, Stephanie. And, um, I should also thank the the staff at the centre for organising the event and you for inviting me to give a talk.

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And of course, things are happening. You and I talk last week.

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Um, um, this sort of emergence of new campus student activism.

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Uh, the, uh, you know, a couple of chapters of my book actually covers that issue.

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And now, uh, the the, uh, we are following, uh, what happened has happened in the past, uh, a couple of days.

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But, um, to respond to you is that five, five, six years ago, I started this project with my colleague.

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I was young and value of thinking of putting together an edited volume on the Iranian revolution,

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but in a little different way that we conventionally think of Iranian Revolution, or at least in these scholarly settings we studied.

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And that is that if it is true that the revolution.

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Was made possible by people who were grow up in Iran in at least the two decades before the revolution.

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Why can't we do a comprehensive study of life in Iran prior to revolution?

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And we gather a group of 1213 scholars.

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So this was an active. You know, we had several workshops, um, in-person meetings.

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This was before we knew there was such a thing called zoom.

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And people kept telling me that when you participated in Revolution and you lived in Iran in the two decades before revolution.

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And they kept asking me to write. My piece about my own life, and I felt that was ridiculous.

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I actually, I'm a private person. I don't believe in mixing up personal and scholarly work, but.

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As people keep insisting I have to do this. I just realise I don't have argument against it because for a long time I made these arguments that.

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When we speak of Iranian revolution, we usually, uh, what we mean is really Islamic Republic.

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And mixing of these two is not fair to the topic, and it's not fair to a diversity of people who participate in that ownership.

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And I agreed to write a chapter, which is really the chapter two, uh, in this book.

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And that is my last three years of high school in Copenhagen.

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And the reason I did this, because I felt that as I studied memoirs, autobiographies, oral histories of the Revolution.

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I realise that it's heavily down based. And I felt that as important as Karen is, we need to expand the history of Iranian revolution.

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In terms of space, not just, uh, of course, uh, history is always very important,

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but to just focus on Tehran just gives a fragment of the actual history.

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And to be honest with you, uh, of course, I was also very, um, anxious.

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I had no experience of writing my memoir and sharing it with the public.

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I begin writing that chapter, and I realised that it's not really my mental.

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Everything I'm writing about involves other people.

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How fair is it that I just have the exclusive rights of writing?

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Really? My opinion about everyone and everything.

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I wrote that piece, which is part of the global Iranian revolution that was published,

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and I felt, oh, good, I don't have to write more about, uh, my own story.

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But the friends and colleagues who read this, they push.

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Asking me or encouraging me or just. Just pushing me on the wall.

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Uh, so that I write this.

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Um, but at the same time, I realise I really realised this while I was doing research for the the chapter in the other book that.

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What no recall memoirs or autobiographies about revolutions are not really about revolutions.

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Many of them are over that at least described as confessional statements about how horrible

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and how stupid it was to participate in either the radical movements or the revolution,

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and so on and so forth, which, of course,

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everybody has the right to say those things that I felt that one need to be respectful of their own memories.

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I didn't think that when I was a teenager in high school or when I was at Rowan University,

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uh, since I didn't know what will happen after change, I was very much excited.

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Those were really great days. In addition to thinking that maybe I have something to add to the history of Iran in the 60s and 70s,

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maybe later 60s or certainly 70s in terms of living and being from very small towns.

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I felt that I will try to see if I can tell this story.

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And be, you know, Politicker has this book that now is one of my really a book that each time I think of it inspires me.

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The book, I think it's called history, Memory and Forgetfulness.

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And. The reason I read that book is that there is a chapter in the book that talks about memory and fact.

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How can one. Uh, rely on her or his memory.

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Uh, how can can be three memories as history.

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And his argument is that in recollecting our memories or writing about our memories.

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We need to just realise that memories do not reflect facts necessarily.

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We should not try to, um, to represent our memories as objective realities, but we need to respect our memories.

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And the time that he uses that I really like is he says we need to be faithful to our memories.

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And so it's not the math. The memory is what recollecting memories is not about being objective, but it's about.

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Faithfulness, and I felt that many of the literature out there,

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unfortunately or not particularly people of my age and people who I actually, I feel I.

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I know very well. And these, um.

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Memory making, um, is really insult to individuals.

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But as I said. Because our focus, personal memories involves communities and individuals and ideas that are not just our own.

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This whole business of memory making is also installed in those communities and individuals and values.

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It was not until I concluded that I think I can write something that Michel Foucault called it counter memory.

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You know, I would like to use the term uh, counter uh, memoir, which is that if an important event, say, such as Iranian revolution,

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although I don't want to limit my book or representation of my book as a book about revolution is really a book about six years,

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seven life as I experience it in the 60s and 70s in Iran, with particular attention to the small towns.

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I felt that. There are lots of voices and areas of Iran's, um, history that is not represented,

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or there is an active effort for us to forget certain, uh, ideas, certain experiences.

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Uh, that's when I, I felt that I can I can write more on my memoir and feel good about it.

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Although I have to say that writing it was the most painful experience of my life.

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And, uh, my wife, I have to say that everyday told me that to stop.

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Don't write this. And, um, it's nerve breaking experience, I have to say, because I remember what I remember.

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I did lots of research. I check and cross-check with anyone available, but I give one example of the dilemma at least I had in writing my memoir.

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Someone who was at some point a very close friend of mine.

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Or I would say that early on I saw her as my mentor and role model.

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Whom are not here. The historian who.

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Then I was at her own university. She was really my role model.

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Right. And later on, we.

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We became very close. We were part of a political organisation.

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And then in, um, after the revolution, I had very close, uh, both political affiliations and that were,

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uh, we were part of one a small group and the, uh, what we did.

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But. She has written, not she.

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I don't think she has written a book or a memoir, but she has done lots of interviews and written a small pieces.

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And almost all of them. I feel our memory making.

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At least those parts that I know very well. So it was a huge struggle for me.

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What would one do? Would you just write that command out?

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That is not telling the truth? Is this the job of a memoir to talk about other people not being truthful?

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Because I didn't I didn't start writing my memoir for, you know, this was this is this for me.

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This is like policing the truth.

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I that. No, this is not my job. But to go back to portray her.

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I also felt that I have to be faithful to my memoir.

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So I write 2 or 3 cases where I personally have interaction with human author, and I do it briefly because emotionally I couldn't do it.

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To be honest with you, I think logically I should have written more.

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There was no, I don't think ethically it would, uh, if I'm allowed to do this, but emotionally I couldn't.

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But there is lots of this.

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The similar stories that, um, you struggle with, you have to make a decision one way or another.

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But I think at the end I was able to write a memoir that I can honestly say is a a counter memoir.

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Some comments I have received already. For some.

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Uh, others who have read this have described it as as a, um, as a, um.

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So just say it bluntly. As a true Islamic Republic book.

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It's at the end for some reason that I don't understand.

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Uh, some folks think that at the end my memo comes celebrating the revolution.

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I think what I have tried to do, I hope I can talk more about this today that, um,

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as far as I know, uh, there was no way I could have predicted what will happen.

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IBM and Revolution that I participated in.

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I think, um. I write about this as I experience it.

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Um, it's not that all of it is positive.

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It is what it is. But. In Iran.

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The security forces have.

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Called publishers the. I have published my work before, and they have let them know that this is a probe of how.

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You write something and people interpret it. It's a pro.

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I am a pro bono agent and this is what this book does.

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That is that there is a two page. And I would say perhaps 2 or 3 pages.

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Of when I was in college were probably gone in high school, and I was recruited without knowing it by what I know know to be undervalued.

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Um, at the time, um.

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I was told this is an one, and I wanted to recruit me to bomb a, a, um,

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a chemistry high school teacher that we had and was behind so that that he and his family would leave the, um, um.

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I was convinced that maybe the fact that I have had this experience of living in 4 or 5

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different small towns and becoming an intellectual and activist and political person,

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I felt I was introduced to what we now call political Islam in the 60.

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And then I went to Tehran. This is in the 70s.

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And people beginning to say, oh, it seems that Islamists are being active.

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I thought I already had experienced this few years and previous.

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Sorry. I try to be very brief after that.

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I remember the 2 or 3 pages about the Baha'i incident.

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And it's quite short your description of it, but it does seem to have been a turning point for you.

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Judging by what you say in the book, in the sense that it alerted you to all the possible ways in which a movement for radical change could go wrong,

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do you think that it played that role for you? What was it like? Um.

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For those of you who have read the book, I hope the summary I want to give makes sense.

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For others, it would be. It would take a long time.

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It would take me a long time to explain this. But the idea of being from a small towns.

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I'm not really from a small towns. None of these towns that we lived.

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My closest friends. In elementary school, in middle school, in high school, they always told me that you are not of us.

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You are Horace G. Uh, you are from out of town.

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And my mother would always say that our family has pain of war.

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But we are very big, right?

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I was born in a town called my lawyer. I wasn't even three when we left Malaya.

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So I could never, ever claim to be from my mother.

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Yet I don't believe them. In fact, that my my father was a civil servant.

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Every 2 or 3 years we just moved to another city.

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But I was I had there was this deep yearning in me that I wanted a home.

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I did really good things and horrible things so that one of these community would accept me.

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By the time I was in Copenhagen, I realised this is not going to work.

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If you are not from a place, you cannot claim the place.

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So I moved to a sport, arts and political activism.

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And I felt very comfortable. But in gold.

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Pagan, um, a very religious, uh, town, but by religious in mean, very politically religious place.

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I converted I'd become a a very pious, um,

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young boy who would correct my parents and my sister and my brothers on their behaviours all the time, how, you know.

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And of course, I was also part of the political, um, environment in the city.

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The, uh, of course we didn't use these terms like Islamists, but, uh, in high school in town, they, they, they dominated the town.

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By the way, for those of you who know something about God, probably gone after revolutions.

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Many of these folks that I knew when I was in high school, including, um,

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several in Peter Arbery or from those days of God, probably got East Sofie's, um, stuff is these are all from this town.

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And these were not just religious people who were political.

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They had connections all over the world.

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It's not just outside of Copenhagen, but in the Arab world and so on and so forth.

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So I felt that. That I will become, you know, a religious activist.

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And in my thinking, I was thinking of the moment that I could get out of high school and control of my parents.

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I will go to Palestine. And that incident.

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Oh, well, of course I also have. I was sympathetic to what system to.

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I have read this wonderful book, Trish, Holly, ash for Her Eyes by Anna VI.

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And here and there. There were teachers in previous time with her.

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Marxism was dominant among activists. So I had this, um, soft heart for Marxism two.

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But I think at the time that I was almost sure that I wanted my future life would be I would be a political activist from a sort of Islamic trend.

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I was recruited, recruited by another high school teacher in a bus and, um.

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Me and. And then they asked me to bomb.

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Well, it wasn't just me and the other high school students to bomb some of these house because he was of Bali.

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And by the way, he was a wonderful, perhaps most extremely likeable.

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Soft spoken chemistry teacher. And.

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This was, I believe this was when I was in 11th grade, I began.

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There were other things that was happening too. I was also getting tired of just policing everybody's behaviour.

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And I felt that, you know, how can we make a better Iran like this?

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But by the time that I went to that on university, I realised that, no, no, I want to go to the other thing.

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So it was a landmark in my life too. Uh, Stephanie.

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You mentioned at the beginning how many of the people who were active in the

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revolution itself later denounced the revelation and issued these confessions,

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00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:37,850
if you like, about their past? Do you think there was any way in which the revolution could have had a different outcome?

202
00:27:38,750 --> 00:27:47,330
What were the other possibilities which were lost, or opportunities which were missed, which might have meant something different could be managed?

203
00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:54,030
This is a great question. I think my hope is that.

204
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:05,740
Well, I know that this was my aim in writing this book that for someone like me or anyone.

205
00:28:06,550 --> 00:28:11,680
Else of my generation who lived in Iran.

206
00:28:11,710 --> 00:28:17,940
Um. If you were interested in politics or participated in politics.

207
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:24,810
The idea that the the estate would collapse that quickly.

208
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:31,500
I'm talking I'm not talking about people who. Supported the government.

209
00:28:32,030 --> 00:28:37,760
For someone like me, by the time, you know, say, two years before revolution.

210
00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:42,770
I graduated from Tehran University at least.

211
00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:46,640
Personally, I just felt that I have enough information to think that.

212
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:54,620
I didn't think that what we are doing would lead to the collapse of the Islamic Republic.

213
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:04,420
And, um. It was so far away from our own mind.

214
00:29:05,620 --> 00:29:09,520
That the kind of discussions we had was.

215
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:17,630
Would we be happy if the situation gets a little bad?

216
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,760
Um. Nice. Don't France kind of government.

217
00:29:24,150 --> 00:29:36,590
The sharp with us. You know, someone from a, um, national front office or political groups like that to form the government.

218
00:29:37,550 --> 00:29:44,390
Even then, it seems that things were a little not going very well for the government.

219
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:58,640
Secondly, it I personally for me, it it was not until the end of the summer of 78 that.

220
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,700
I began thinking that. Islamists may take over.

221
00:30:08,330 --> 00:30:21,620
May take over. Not for sure. And among my activist friends or people who have more experience from us, you know, we were debating it.

222
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:28,790
I don't think that people it was not certain that that something like that would happen.

223
00:30:30,050 --> 00:30:35,570
However. By October of 78.

224
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:41,540
I'm not trying to justify this. I'm sure there were things that I didn't see.

225
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:47,870
We were at the at the point that I felt that.

226
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,750
E. Something very tragic is going to happen and nobody can do anything about.

227
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,300
I remember first. Well, I want to be brief here.

228
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:09,110
In other words, when I was a cop. In fact.

229
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,190
Well, that's what one example is that I think this happened also in October.

230
00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:23,090
That Ayatollah Khomeini issued a announcement and asked university students to go back to their classes.

231
00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:29,280
I remember that everybody was a little confused.

232
00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:35,430
But then I say, everybody, uh, the student activists were.

233
00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:42,080
You know, somewhere leftists or whatever they were, uh,

234
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:51,750
they were not supporters or at least identify the supporter of Ayatollah Khomeini on the what we now call Islamists.

235
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:55,840
They're, um, they clearly defined themselves.

236
00:31:55,860 --> 00:32:03,390
It was, you know, who they were. But we were all gathered at Georgetown University campus to see what we want to do.

237
00:32:04,050 --> 00:32:11,820
Um, the spokesperson from the pro Khomeini students basically said he's our leader.

238
00:32:12,150 --> 00:32:16,560
It doesn't really matter what he says. Whatever he says, we need to follow.

239
00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:24,600
And, um, I immediately said, no, this is why we want to get rid of the show.

240
00:32:25,410 --> 00:32:29,880
We don't have someone, you know, we don't just follow someone.

241
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:37,740
So there was this arguments, and then it was decided that we all gather in a larger space,

242
00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:43,380
which has done this crime really, at the time was almost outside of their on in phalanx.

243
00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:48,290
So the next day. Oh.

244
00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:57,550
So then there was a little chaos, and somehow all of us elected to represent the non-human institutions.

245
00:32:57,850 --> 00:33:03,670
And another guy was elected to represent the the how many folks.

246
00:33:04,090 --> 00:33:07,960
And the idea was that we both make our cases and the students vote.

247
00:33:10,510 --> 00:33:19,750
Even at that time, I knew that there was a risk going on publicly speaking against.

248
00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:28,980
At least this particular announcement was coming, but I think I felt that we can change things.

249
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:46,320
I talk and this other person talk. At the the spokesperson for probably the folks was not really an intellectual or you know,

250
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:53,730
I don't want to give myself credit and I actually my job was very easy in a revolutionary situation,

251
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,880
when you go and say that we want to make the decision.

252
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:07,170
Uh, so most people somehow worked that for me, although there was no motive, just sheer after I talk and.

253
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:13,770
After these events, I was. I was a stop almost to that.

254
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:19,700
Uh, by probing these students. And, um.

255
00:34:20,970 --> 00:34:29,700
Taken to hospital survive. For me, the beginning of this is horrible thing is going to happen.

256
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:40,380
Nobody can do anything. Was reaction of my leftist friends who basically said, well, you are too radical.

257
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:47,790
You know, Khamenei has all the power, all the resources we have to support them.

258
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:58,450
I didn't like what they said. I really tried to argue with them, but I was also convinced that there is nothing we can do.

259
00:34:59,590 --> 00:35:05,700
All I tried to do at that point on board was we shouldn't support Toby.

260
00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:13,020
We should not support. She told her mom.

261
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:25,230
That even mentioning others, which I did, I don't want to go into those details, but people kept saying, oh, it's only me.

262
00:35:25,790 --> 00:35:31,130
Uh, and then I saw, um, I think I discussed this in the book.

263
00:35:31,730 --> 00:35:34,880
Uh, my relatives from other side.

264
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:45,710
Uh, who are from Laura Stone and in fact, by far more of than my family's from my father's side.

265
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:50,670
But. My, uh, my maternal.

266
00:35:51,470 --> 00:35:57,120
Uh, relatives, uh, but, uh, tribal people and landowning, um,

267
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:06,810
the kids or basically mostly I think certainly at the time were leftist, but my, my father is from parish.

268
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:16,170
Almost all of them work for the government, for the military and for even, uh, royal court.

269
00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:23,620
October, November, or even in some cases a little earlier.

270
00:36:26,270 --> 00:36:34,400
Uh, I realise that people, you know, I don't want to name and will give titles people who have really high position in the government.

271
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:42,510
Have become supportive of many. Very high, folks.

272
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:46,020
And people. Who are you? Of course.

273
00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:50,399
None of these folks knew that I was an activist or I was not.

274
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:59,070
I didn't like this show. Um, no, it was a thunderstorm or hurricane or.

275
00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:10,920
Uh, no, no. What made me, uh, upset, really, really upset was the decision to support the process.

276
00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:17,600
I felt that we should resist. And, um.

277
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,620
Then I insisted a little more.

278
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:26,270
Then my left. This friend began this associating with me.

279
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:34,850
That's a very depressing conclusion, I think. Um, and it does in know why your book is a bit like a Greek tragedy.

280
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:40,760
It's it's happening and everyone knows it's happening, but nobody can do anything to stop it.

281
00:37:41,570 --> 00:37:45,649
Um, what I, I wonder is, what did the reason.

282
00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:50,180
It's not so much a book about the revolution, but a book about the 60s and 70s.

283
00:37:50,660 --> 00:37:54,260
What? What did the 60s and 70s, especially the 70s, mean to you?

284
00:37:55,710 --> 00:38:00,710
What? What do you mean when you say what kind of identity does, uh, that decade have?

285
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:16,600
I think when it comes to to this book, and particularly now that I think of or as I was thinking of today, uh, look at the book.

286
00:38:16,750 --> 00:38:32,530
There are two things. One is that in some respects I feel that I, I can speak on behalf of my generation, but I just to speak about myself.

287
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,340
I was a product of.

288
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:46,220
Of. Pahlavi policies under rule in 1670.

289
00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:52,250
Oh, my father was until he died after revolution.

290
00:38:52,580 --> 00:39:02,630
A admirer of my mother's had to be and everything, and that was what life was like, for instance.

291
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:09,590
Really? I was introduced to Islam in Copenhagen.

292
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:13,880
Before this, I had never been in a mosque, for instance.

293
00:39:14,270 --> 00:39:20,480
This is what I got into. Moving from cities to cities.

294
00:39:23,180 --> 00:39:26,210
This was not my thinking then. This is my thinking. Not.

295
00:39:27,730 --> 00:39:32,650
My father was. Commissioner of.

296
00:39:33,940 --> 00:39:37,690
Finance Ministry. In these towns.

297
00:39:39,590 --> 00:39:49,190
And my family would only socialise with other officials appointed by.

298
00:39:51,200 --> 00:40:01,190
And in fact, one criticism I always had to face from my family.

299
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:10,610
What makes you love these natives? And I see the resentments.

300
00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:16,840
No, I didn't see. I just, you know, that that then we were in another town called the town.

301
00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:26,830
I almost killed myself with one family to say, well, don't say you are Carrie or you are Hartig.

302
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:31,660
I never understood why they could not do this.

303
00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:39,390
Because. I didn't see this power relationship going on.

304
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:50,279
I can. We can see whole life in a way in brother.

305
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,150
Iran was structured that way. So that's one thing.

306
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,160
And secondly, for someone like me, who.

307
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:11,220
Love of books and education and just intellectual, historical things I got from my father, actually.

308
00:41:13,230 --> 00:41:25,590
Who was a person of works. But. You know, a young person like me who was interested in also politics and literature and things like this.

309
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,810
Inspiration from the global war.

310
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:42,650
Was amazing. It is interesting I talk about this on chapter on Terran University.

311
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:50,120
I was at Terran University School of Law and Political Science, but I was doing political science.

312
00:41:51,520 --> 00:42:02,700
And in fact, my mentor and chair of our department was, I mean, in our yard, who actually, after the revolution came here and died.

313
00:42:02,710 --> 00:42:11,260
And I was very close to him. And he was a professor of, um, political thought.

314
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:18,370
He offered a class on Western political thought and a class on Islamic political thought.

315
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:25,480
And I was so frustrated that. I don't know anything about.

316
00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:33,200
Iranian political thought or anything, or Iranian politics, uh, at all.

317
00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:43,370
And some of us asked this question in in class, and professor and I didn't really respond.

318
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:50,150
But in his office I said this. I said that this is really, um, ridiculous.

319
00:42:51,050 --> 00:43:01,340
We are students of political science. And what I said, I'm not asking you or department to offer.

320
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:12,850
History political history of contemporary Iran from any particular point of view, it can be from what that world wants you to to say this.

321
00:43:15,180 --> 00:43:18,240
He was for the first time, he told me privately.

322
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:24,110
That. It is attached to its US order.

323
00:43:24,830 --> 00:43:32,030
Nobody, including faculty members who were member of you know you know, northern Party.

324
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:38,210
The pro government could not teach about past constitutional revolution.

325
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:45,760
Certainly not what happened in the 20s. Not what happened during that period or afterward.

326
00:43:49,230 --> 00:43:54,540
This is a systematic effort at forgetfulness.

327
00:43:56,580 --> 00:44:05,970
Forgetfulness. But I think I explained this on chapter on going gone through radios.

328
00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:16,300
Through. Available in newspapers and magazines, for instance.

329
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:23,370
Some of you. Already know this, but some may be surprised that.

330
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,130
Iranians. Newspapers and magazines basically had free.

331
00:44:31,310 --> 00:44:43,970
Hands in publishing anything about national liberation movements in the world, particularly movements that were anti-American Americans.

332
00:44:45,550 --> 00:44:51,620
Racial tension in U.S. Um, about Palestine, about Latin America.

333
00:44:52,810 --> 00:44:56,890
These were totally okay. And of course.

334
00:44:58,870 --> 00:45:08,260
I remember clearly that, you know, I was in high school and we had these gatherings and reading groups with other high schools,

335
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,820
and we were thinking of, okay, let's imagine you don't.

336
00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:21,750
So we basically didn't know much. We knew about this glorious history of Iran and then Islam, that the routine things that you all know.

337
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,540
But we really didn't know much after the constitutional revolution.

338
00:45:28,350 --> 00:45:32,220
And all we were thinking was, okay, Latin America.

339
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:36,790
Uh, ideas from the Arab world.

340
00:45:37,330 --> 00:45:42,490
Ideas from Asia that those inspired us.

341
00:45:43,060 --> 00:45:48,220
I know that intellectually, that is what was I was motivated with.

342
00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:56,319
The National was not really that important because I don't know that I think about this.

343
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:07,120
I think I discussed this in the book. We sort of I at least I feel that what is called Iran is something that still has made up,

344
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:15,880
and we need the Irish to at least I came to some understanding of what I think Iran is.

345
00:46:17,020 --> 00:46:20,799
Through international today we called global.

346
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:27,640
Global was the right and, uh, we killed ourselves with some Arabic and English.

347
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:39,250
We had, um, we would read about ideas, um, say particularly these days because the issue of Gaza and Palestine is important.

348
00:46:40,210 --> 00:46:43,720
Palestine for us was not just injustice is happening.

349
00:46:44,620 --> 00:46:50,260
Palestine was a place where so much ideas came from.

350
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:59,310
And then you go again, in my case, to university law school.

351
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,680
The most boring place that one can imagine.

352
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:11,660
You can be. I. I'm doing these projects that you are also part of this.

353
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:22,130
And I had this conversation with Abbas Amarnath, who was a third on your list of 4 or 5 years prior to me.

354
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,170
Uh, and and he was in actually in a little.

355
00:47:26,530 --> 00:47:29,710
Little bit of a I thought college.

356
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,830
There beyond the literature school.

357
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:47,260
But this is exactly, like I said, so boring. So nothing was going on because I wanted to know what happened to Ferdy.

358
00:47:48,370 --> 00:47:53,890
He had this fascination with Armada five deep, and he said, this is exactly why.

359
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,820
Because he would say something. Something so.

360
00:47:58,660 --> 00:48:08,260
And he said, how about something that said that I couldn't understand or may look even stupid, but it was something a little different.

361
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:17,340
But the world was I. I just felt bad that the world's hands were all upon them, you know?

362
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,820
Um, that was the, again, the context of Iran and the context of the world.

363
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,010
And I think Iran won the revolution symbolically.

364
00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:32,310
If you want to talk about this, that, um.

365
00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:39,620
Um. I don't want to use this. Focus on secular versus religion, those kind of things.

366
00:48:39,890 --> 00:48:43,520
But at the end, I felt that we were.

367
00:48:45,580 --> 00:48:53,380
He very strangers. And, um, I think that the struggle is continuing.

368
00:48:54,760 --> 00:49:00,010
So you mentioned the student activism. I mean, you you, uh, acted when you were university.

369
00:49:00,340 --> 00:49:04,240
And we see now, as you mentioned, these this, this activism campus.

370
00:49:04,570 --> 00:49:11,860
What's different now? Because you just mentioned how Palestine was something bigger than Palestine, if you like.

371
00:49:11,860 --> 00:49:18,440
It was much deeper significance. And yet this deeper significance is not often articulated.

372
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:27,490
So what what is the are they are they different or is it essentially the same, same kind of set of ideas reappearing?

373
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:34,809
Actually, I have been thinking of this because, you know, I work at NYU in New York,

374
00:49:34,810 --> 00:49:43,390
and in the past four weeks or so, particularly after the university called the police, um.

375
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,780
Uh, the companies have become very political. I actually teach a graduate class.

376
00:49:51,290 --> 00:50:00,880
I have six students. Five of them are Palestinians and two of two come from Gaza and.

377
00:50:02,070 --> 00:50:11,460
And I'm in very close contact with the with the forest users and of course just involved as faculty.

378
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,030
What is going on? Um.

379
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,839
And this is my observation, which, you know, I don't know.

380
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,650
It's not anything deep or new, but this is my observation.

381
00:50:25,850 --> 00:50:37,380
That is that. It is 60, certainly 70s that I can say I was more of, you know, 18, 19 years old and.

382
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,530
An activist my generation, we were.

383
00:50:44,990 --> 00:50:49,520
We I we thought we were fighting against injustice.

384
00:50:52,650 --> 00:51:01,730
And. We just felt that it's our moral obligation to defend or voice or.

385
00:51:03,650 --> 00:51:09,140
Protest against. Um, those who have no power.

386
00:51:12,930 --> 00:51:27,810
But I would say even more than that. We were excited and inspired by ideas that came from from Chile all over in Latin America.

387
00:51:29,050 --> 00:51:34,390
To year. The civil rights movement. I kill myself.

388
00:51:36,990 --> 00:51:42,150
Trying to read a book in English by a civil right.

389
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:49,510
Leader. To just learn about what he is talking about.

390
00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:55,450
Uh, my English wasn't that good. Um, you know, I had.

391
00:51:56,910 --> 00:52:04,310
Help of friends. And as you said, certainly post time we would read about it.

392
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,870
Palestinian intellectuals or leaders.

393
00:52:07,860 --> 00:52:25,830
So, um, I felt that we we had movements for change, for justice, that both inspired us and also had so much to give us.

394
00:52:27,610 --> 00:52:42,460
My thinking about today is there is the similarity is that these young, um, students have the same feelings about injustice.

395
00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:53,400
And trying to voice their criticism or their, uh, defence of, uh, people of Gaza who are being massacred.

396
00:52:56,730 --> 00:53:02,240
But in terms of a state of mind. I see it is fair.

397
00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:10,350
I think the way at least maybe based on my limited experience.

398
00:53:11,010 --> 00:53:17,580
I think they live more in, um, in a state of despair.

399
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:23,950
Is that everybody is against them. Everyone is against them.

400
00:53:23,950 --> 00:53:31,870
They are so happy that you know one of these. A student said, oh, they said, you saw us, that it was also some demonstration.

401
00:53:33,070 --> 00:53:37,100
And I was thinking. Then I was that age.

402
00:53:37,610 --> 00:53:41,330
I just assume everybody is protesting.

403
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:48,680
Um, although I have to say that even myself after Columbia, NYU, when I heard UCLA is.

404
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,040
Okay. Good. I think this is bad time.

405
00:53:52,580 --> 00:53:57,379
This is a maybe my generation or not.

406
00:53:57,380 --> 00:54:02,840
That me or my generation. How did it all into in the end of 70s?

407
00:54:03,590 --> 00:54:14,030
That in them we see an emergence of that of activism and emergence of these the

408
00:54:14,220 --> 00:54:23,930
protest or the a voice of those who want to change things as the outgoing,

409
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:27,980
um, but is much tougher and harder.

410
00:54:29,870 --> 00:54:34,390
Okay. I think there are some copies of the book in the back if anyone would like to take a look.

411
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Thank you sir.