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Welcome all to this, the third session of the political seminar, sponsored by the Middle East Centre at St. Anthony's College, Oxford.

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My name is Faisal BPG and I am convening the seminar along with my colleague

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at the Middle East Centre and the Oriental Institute was summoned as to me,

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so let me introduce our two speakers for today, who will be speaking on the theme of sovereignty.

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First, we have an agenda very senior fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Central European University and very recently,

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Oxford and Islamic Centre Visiting Fellow, the author of two wonderful books Advice for the Sorbonne, Prophetic Voices and Secular Politics,

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saying today about Islam and the future of Iran's past and Islamo.

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Mulk remembered she will be speaking first for 20 minutes and will be followed by Sameer You,

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assistant professor of law and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Texas at Austin Law School,

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author of the important book Law Empire and the Sorbonne Ottoman Imperial Authority,

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and later Hanafi Jurisprudence, whose new project is on making Islamic law relevant.

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And Sammy will be speaking immediately following again for another 20 minutes,

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after which we will have a discussion and audience members are encouraged to write up their questions, either in the Q&A box or in the chat box.

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And I will come to them when we are done with the presentations, and if they are unable to do that,

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they can raise their hand function and I might call on those who do so.

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So Negin, over to you. Thank you very much. On Oxford and Summer organising the seminar very much.

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Look forward to your comments, everyone. My talk is going to be me.

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It's called Islamic imperatives and Islamic rulers, and the focus is on the way in which we study sovereignty.

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We can study sovereignty in the pre-modern Islamic world.

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Richard Tucks, the sleeping sovereign criticises Russo's claim that by not having sufficiently distinguish its sovereign from the government,

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all previous writers. This is Russo claiming all previous writers have failed to understand the democratic constitution.

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Suggesting and talks criticises Rousseau to say that this must be taken with a grain of salt.

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But the first formulation of the distinction is instead is not in with resolve, but rather with John Wooden himself.

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Now Rousseau dies in 1778, John Wooden in 50 96 an unorthodox claim and by way of introduction,

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I wish to direct you to a passage from Evan Calhoun's celebrated Almog, the man where the author discusses the meaning of the caliphate.

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And everyone, of course, dies in 14 or six. Sovereignty and cultural rights is premised on social association and necessity for mankind.

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It requires subjugation and force, which are signs of mankind's aggressive and animalistic nature.

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The commands of its possessor, the possessor of sovereignty that is,

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will therefore deviate from what is right and undermine the worldly interests of his subjects,

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where he will force upon them his own objectives and ambitions, which may suppress what they are willing to bear.

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The situation will differ in response to the ambitions of different generations.

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Compliance will be undermined as a result in disobedience would redo its head,

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causing chaos and bludgeon the distinction between a ruler and sovereignty here between work and its possessor,

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and indeed between sovereignty and state is central to avocado's discussion of the caliphate.

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And importantly, Edmund Hilden is not an outlier in the annals of Islamic political thought.

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Sometime between April and September 13, hundreds in a small town in Iran, the aristocrat to be master along with Dolly Asim Noni,

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wrote an Arabic treatise and very assorted caddy's job title muddied the inspiration,

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refuting the Rebels sophistry, ostensibly to refute the philosophical method.

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In it, he wrote, the sovereignty of every sultan and hear the praise it's of no use.

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This Sultanate could inflict on proceeds from his that if God's command took command and the justice of every king proceeds from his ego,

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it's justice. He installed them as Vice Gerrans, headed by monkeys preachers for the well-being of affairs of the mundane world.

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According to his wisdom and by means of his wisdom, he God does what he God wishes and decides what God wants.

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Sean Anthony has re re-examined the cons of the book in early Islamic political discourse,

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suggesting that it cannot merely be seen as the antithesis of an earlier capable ideal a caliphate on the model of prophecy,

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rather in the discourse of the war on an early Muslim piety.

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Anthony has shown with a capacious term that embraces ideas such as sovereignty and dominion in both its human and divine instantiation.

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In this regard, the etymology of malt resonates loudly and clearly with the etymology of sovereignty in Bhutan's own usage.

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I studied by talk and many others. Well done, celebrity status in aetiologies of sovereignty also rests on his taxonomic innovation, he declared,

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contrary to all the doctrines of jurisprudence and scholars who have misunderstood the real issue.

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The Miram Imperium of Roman law did not belong either to the prince or to the officers and agents of the state or to anybody else.

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It belonged rather to the impersonal state, and because it was a distinct species of power,

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it deserved to be called by a unique name that can only be attributed to the state.

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It was no longer to be called. Simply,

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Imperium would rather sovereignty and sovereignty is comprised of the power forbidden to appoint and dismiss the officers and to give law to everyone.

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Furthermore, the distinction without delineates also entails a concept of perpetual sovereignty or power,

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thus distinguishing between the underlying location of sovereignty and the form that governmental power might take at any particular moment.

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But how is sovereignty conceptualised if separated from the states?

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Another example will illustrate the point.

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One telling anecdote in Seattle Manute, a late 11th century miracle princes by the famously powerful there's a lot busier to choose subjects.

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Sultan's features a wronged man for whom justice was recovered by a humble killer in Bangkok.

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So Taylor was well known for his unfettered access to the Caliph, having successfully intervened on the wrong man's behalf.

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The Tiger set out to explain how his direct line to the cave had come about.

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He says no, that I have proclaimed the hours of prayer from the minaret of this mosque for 30 years.

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I'm a tailor by trade. I have never drunk wine. Never indulge in adultery and sodomy and never approve of improper acts.

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Now in this street is the house of an emir. One day after the afternoon prayer, I left the mosque to come back to this shop.

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I saw the emir coming along in a drunken state, holding on to a young woman's veil.

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He was dragging her by force, and she was crying for help and saying, All Muslims rescue me.

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I'm not a woman of this sort. This Turk is presumptuously and forcibly carrying me off with mischievous intent.

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Moreover, my husband is sworn to divorce me if I'm ever away from this house at night.

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According to the. Bystanders did not dare to intervene for the trip was well placed and notorious for its cruelty to.

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You could not tolerate the piety.

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He gathered a bunch of men and they marched to the commander's house, evoking the duty of commanding right and forbidding want the men yelled at.

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You think there is no Muslim left in Baghdad? How dare you write under the court's nose?

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Drag a pious woman to your house to stand with her. Either hand this woman to us right now, or we shall take her grievance to almost nothing.

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The opposite came the Turk paid no heat and ordered his men to beat up the protesters.

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The Watson come Taylor returned home when he could not sleep.

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He knew that it was too late to save the woman's honour,

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but he still had the time to prevent her from staying out all night and keep the abduction a secret from her husband.

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He decided to announce the call to prayer at once instead of a dawn,

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thinking that the debauched truck would not realise the time and let the woman go.

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The Caliph was awake, however, and was disturbed by the untimely call to prayers.

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He sent out his Chamberlain to look for the perpetrator of this gross blunder, who had summoned the populace to prayer well before it set time.

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The muzzle was taken to the Caleb. Once it informed of the Turks conduct,

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the Caliph sent for the emir and had him put in a sack and thrashed until there was not a single bone left unbroken in his body.

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The sack was then thrown into the Tigris. On the surface,

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the anecdote suggests there's a man who had been removed from his position by the Kings a short while after

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spending his mirror with disaffected with the South jokes and therefore did not think much of twigs in general.

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But there's a subtle twist to the story's conclusion. When the drunken trooper is brought to, the kid gets caught,

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the empire's took the Clippers to upset one in my policy, toward my subject and toward Islam.

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Have you seen that is impelled you to perform such deeds?

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How by manifested laxity in religious matters or oppression?

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The moral of the anecdote is motivated.

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On the one hand, it is a clarion call for the hapless Caleb to attend to his duties and protect Muslims from the pious Turks.

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On the other hand, ignore wise vigilance, a state with requisite of good rulership as a voice and mirrors for princes across the globe.

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But it is not the case that possesses vigilance.

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It is Islam that acts to right wrongs and deliver the common good with the Malaysian as the vessel through which Islam acts in history.

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Whereas such the innocuous anecdote about a humble painter who stands up to the mighty general reflects the book's views on the political order.

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It is not the bosses who are glorified, but Islam itself upheld as the ideology of a nation of the state.

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The closing of the anecdote is instructive.

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There are many stories of this guy I have related this much in order that the master of the world, the subject sultan that is,

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may know how cadets in kings have always guarded the sheep from the wolves, how they have kept the visuals in check.

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What precautions they have taken against evildoers. And how they have strengthened, upheld and cherished Islam in this schema.

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The ruler you in kings or the arms of the state. They act or should act to protect the people and protect the common good.

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But the rule book represents Islam and is accountable to it.

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The practise of justice, which promotes the common good, is the upholding of Islam.

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It is clear from these and countless other examples that we just don't have time to attend to in this forum.

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But the study of sovereignty in Islamic history, perhaps even a conceptual history of sovereignty so far,

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is not so much from a lack of a consistent, traceable history,

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but rather the unbridgeable gap that separates pre-modern political thought from its modern counterpart as to the

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political thought produced in the Islamic world as it is with scholarship on the topic undertaken in the Western Academy.

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We're all that matters, Islamic political thought is studied in translation.

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On the one hand and is generally recognised,

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most of the scholarship produced on global thought traces the trajectory and impact of war on European ideas and concepts

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as they make their way around the world and has regularly conceded in the Islamic world since the mid-19th century.

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Thinkers obsess over what was missing from the politics and what measures should be taken to overcome the European lead in a variety of fields.

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Finally, political thinkers themselves engage with the canon of European political thought rather than pre-modern Islamic thinkers,

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even when they engage with the adverse effects of colonial modernity.

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Oft repeated is the lament that Islamic political thought lacks a canonical conceptual vocabulary.

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Other studies focus on the question of non correspondence or how the modern

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social scientific toolkit was understood or misunderstood in the Islamic world.

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Because the semantic field of HDMI overlapped properly with society is thus still a proper rendition of Constitution or can independence

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from foreign rule Channel Nation building as it was experienced in Europe when despotism was contested and so on and so forth?

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In this way, Bin Mohammed awesome. Zeman has argued against rendering the unlike term Almog as sovereignty.

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He observes that the idea of sovereignty has a very particular history in the European put of God,

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and that it emerged in tandem with the rise of the modern state.

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Whatever terms like and hawkman and work meant the mediaeval commentators of the Koran,

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they could not have meant what sovereignty meant to say John Wooden or Thomas Hobbes, he says.

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Goes on to add that the mediaeval executes jurists and theologians meant a whole range of things when they wrote of God's authority and Power.

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He was seen to be the source of everything, and by that token of political power to this,

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he's a man takes to attest to the lack of a connexion between the currency of sovereignty and secular politics,

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and therefore the absence of the principle in pre-modern Islamic political life.

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Things changed in the modern period known as someone traces the evolution of God's power and authority articulated in the language of sovereignty,

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in modern Islamist discourse, in the writings of the likes of Rashid Drezner and Sayyid Little,

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who borrowed from Pierce familiar with Western discourse. The bulk of his article focuses on how this concept the sovereignty of God.

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That is not a concept indigenous to the Islamic tradition has come to dominate Islamist discourse in the modern period.

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But it may just be that we are looking for love in the wrong places.

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The archaeology of sovereignty anywhere in the world is very much grounded in real articulation and rethinking sovereignty,

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in the words of David Graber partakes of absolute power,

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the power of command, the ability to issue orders backed up by the threat of punishment and most importantly,

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the power to stand outside a moral or legal order.

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And as a consequence, be able to create new rules and to embody chaos has to impose order.

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You mind kingship simply what represents this principle in its purest form.

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The monopoly of coercive force, which was so famously attributed to the modern state, is nothing more than its secularisation.

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God's had it first, and once the principle of sovereign power takes root, it appears almost impossible to get rid of kings can be killed.

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Kingship abolished, but the principle of sovereignty tends to remain.

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It is, in fact, the organising principle of social life, and as modern himself conceded,

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a feature of all political communities, although its precise character had never been fully understood.

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Thank you. Thank you very much, Linda.

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That was really wonderfully interesting.

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And we will obviously come back to all these themes that you've raised, but let's move on to Sammy's talk immediately.

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So Sammy, please go ahead. Thank you, fiscal. OK, so I'd like to thank the organisers of the Centre for the invitation and thank you.

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Everyone was able to make it today. So I must start with a disclaimer.

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In my current research, I did not set out to investigate the political authority of the head of Egypt in the 19th century.

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Instead, the debates about political sovereignty that I'd like to discuss today were

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articulated in relation to Islamic Courts and the colonial attempts to reform them.

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So from that perspective,

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I did not consult purely political treatises on sovereignty or others in order and IT social history to glean insights into this question.

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Recent examples of works that's excellent in that regard. Where are at the Dominion and an Andrew March that might be consulted for that perspective?

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So my presentation today will address the contours of the political sovereignty of the city of colonial Egypt,

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specifically in 1899 and its radical transformation in the Egyptian Kingdom post-World War One in 1922.

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This presentation consists of two parts. The first part focuses on debates about Cadyville sovereignty under automatically full order,

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and the second part will discuss the Egyptian deliberations on the meaning of the

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French word sovereignty or sovereignty and the post-colonial Egyptian state.

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I observe that in some treatments of modern Egyptian legal history,

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concepts such as sovereignty have been taken for granted within when in fact there were records of

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lengthy debates and discussions on its Arabic rendering and translation into the words CEDA in 1922.

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Similarly, debates on the inner workings of the institutional demarcations between secular political power and religious bodies.

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In the post, Ottoman Egypt indicate that these boundaries were unsettled and indeterminate even until 1930s and 40s.

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The ratification of the Egyptian constitution in 1923 by Egyptian nationalists after the Declaration of Independence in 1922 was

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viewed by some scholars as a legal revolution which reversed the relationship between the sovereign and the and Islamic law,

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the Shariah in general. Instead, in this new order, the Sultan or the king, instead of being under its rule,

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it became above it and be able to control the entire institutional structures that came to be a new institutions of the Egyptian state.

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So this is here going to the brief three points main arguments on my position today.

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I would claim that appeals to automatic little order enabled Muslim jurists and judges in the

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in 1899 to fend off some of the attempts by the colonial authorities to reform these courts.

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I will also try to point out that the limits on the sovereignty of the Hardeen, although that might seem restrictive,

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but also allowed him some space to manoeuvre some of the demands in how Egypt could be shaped and how the British order to achieve in that colony.

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And finally, I would say that the Constitution of 1923 was by design intentionally was designed to

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be a radical shift of how the authority of the well-heeled Amara or the Khedive used

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to be under Ottoman rule to something completely different that they theorise and

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argued for very clearly in this constitution and its discussions amongst its members.

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So on May 15th, 1899, under Hades, our best friend me, the second he ruled Egypt between eighteen ninety two and 1914, when he was removed from power.

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So a decree was issued to change the procedural design of the Islamic Supreme Court and similarly Sharia.

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And the decree proposed changes that would allow two judges from the secular appellate national courts to serve on the Islamic Supreme Court.

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And if that was to be successful, that would have changed the Constitution of this course.

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For example, this court to consists of three key components the chief judge of Egypt to demonstrate they

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used to be appointed by the Ottoman officials and three judges appointed by the by the decree.

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And suddenly we have these two judges appointed by the four leave from the appellate national courts.

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So that was purely a British move in which colonial officials aided by secular legal elite in order to penetrate this high Islamic judicial body,

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which triggered a strong response and really did not go ahead as a move.

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So after 20 days only in June 3rd, 1899, a new decree was issued to withdraw this new proposed law.

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And they tried changes that came with it, and there were three key figures at the centre of pushing these changes.

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I think you can see some of these images of these figures on the screen here. So the first was Malcolm McLaren.

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He died in 1941. He was a British special adviser at the Ministry of Justice.

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Second, somebody by the name Ibrahim Pasha was appointed as the Minister of Justice in 1891.

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And finally, Boutros-Ghali, Patrick and senior leader was assassinated in 1910.

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So these figures were key to proposing them.

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But one, the bill that was proposed to the magistrate in this is the Shura Council in Egypt to allow these changes to go ahead.

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So the government made some changes to the bill. However, that bill was rejected in a couple of times in the council.

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The finish were very frustrated by these attempts. They went anyway and were able to get a divorce decree against the recommendation by this council.

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So a decree was issued by these changes.

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However, we find key figures that came as kind of heroes in some traditional circles to push against some of these colonial policies.

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The first one is the clergy must the chief judge of Egypt Jamaluddin offending.

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He was appointed as an Egyptian advocate in Egypt in 1892 and then moved to Egypt, and the grandeur was there.

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At the same time is how soon, anyway. So both of these figures rejected the bill,

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and they presented a set of arguments that deemed that the some of these changes quote unquote deemed antithesis to Islamic law or was shut up,

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as they say. OK, so that pushed these figures in the government, which is really share the adviser to go to the council and make arguments,

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why these changes fall within the jurisdiction and within the sovereign authority of the holy.

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So the minister affirmed that the two Muslim judges from the appellate national courts would be sufficiently equipped to serve on the Islamic Courts.

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And he elaborated that the job description of such position is quote unquote

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administrative matter that falls within the exclusive purview of the government.

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In other words, the minister dismissed the obvious institutional differences between Islamic and national courts at the time.

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As long as these differences are reduced to the Muslim, this of these figures who are going to serve in the court.

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So the minister reminded his interlocutors that it was the government bureaucrat to decide

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the job descriptions of who was going to serve on Islamic Courts or secular courts,

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for that matter.

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So for me, that could be read as a rejection of the historical and the institutional practise in Egypt until up to this time in which she, Leshurr,

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her and the Grand Judge of Egypt, played a key role in selecting,

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disciplining and reviewing decisions by all Islamic Courts until that that time period.

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So the minister presented a set of arguments to assert the political authority of the head, even Egypt,

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which gave him the power to appoint judges in the judiciary, according to the Minister of Justice.

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The political sovereignty of the provisional rulers will at the Woomera is very important to come here.

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It was general and it included the power to establish the judiciary and appoint judges.

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The minister declared that there was no doubt the beheading in Egypt has sovereignty and the word he used

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allegedly and enjoyed a general political authority which included authority over Islamic Courts in Egypt.

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It followed him, maintained that the appoint of judges is a concomitant right of the Sharif.

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The minister continued to argue that Alexander can explain that the judicial

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appointments in Egypt was delegated to local government by decree from the utmost time,

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and as a result, the government exercised to power to appoint judges across the provinces, and Egypt was granted already by the Ottomans.

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Except in Cairo, which are the supply important, appointed the chief judge.

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Up until the very late 19th century. So the most contentious claim in the minister's remarks in this debates inside the Shura Council was that his

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assertion that the sovereign power of the had in Egypt was a general authority explained that the previous judge,

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including the judge of Egypt, was appointed by Ismail and no one contested this authority by the optimal time or by local Muslim authorities in Egypt.

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He claims that was for 15 years. No one said anything. So in his role as a chief judge, supposedly this Kadima's has issued long opinions.

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Some of his opinions made them do the mosque, and then they call that to a collection by the move to Egypt for almost then 50 years.

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Mohamed Labas al-Mahdi, his engineer on the left of the screen and no one really has said anything in this regard.

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So the narrative by the minister, however,

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falters when we know the actual recorded historical documents that we see in which the Ottoman opposed any time,

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even the completely independent Egyptian purview over the judiciary.

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We actually know for sure that the Ottomans sent an actual telegraph do the

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Cardiff declaring and appointing McClatchy much into the early 20th century.

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So any claims by the minister that the Egyptians have had that independent authority to appoint that judge doesn't seem to be the case.

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The minister also attempted to explain away Ottoman approvals of judicial appointments of the last judge,

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quote unquote as a promotion in rank, not as initiating deployment.

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So to summarise the arguments of the Minister of Justice in Egypt should draw attention to the fact that some of the political

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leaders in Egypt attempted to diminish the Ottoman political and legal sovereignty in the Egyptian province at the end.

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This was unsuccessful efforts on the part of the minister,

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who had played a key role in serving British colonial interests under the pretext of reform.

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So it's important to stress that the arguments by the Mufti and by the judge of Egypt were not simply that this is going to antithesis Islamic law,

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or this somehow contradicts rules of Islamic law.

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They had compelling arguments and reasons beyond the general frame that the minister again attempted to say so first.

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They argued that Islamic Supreme Court decisions in Egypt, according to the ordinances of Islamic Courts,

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is a form of legal response to the way the fatwa,

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which required legal discovery and expertise in Islamic law, as opposed to simply state codified law.

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Thus, those who would serve on the court must be knowledgeable scholars and judges and Islamic Courts,

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as well as Hanafi jurisprudence, as used to be the official school of the Ottoman Empire.

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And then what? We had also raised concerns about the arguments of the Minister of Justice about the sovereignty of the footage.

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Now what We cited that the famous effort that will hinder to affirm that if a judge was appointed by the Caliph and one of the provinces,

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the local emir has no authority to appoint a different judge in this province and has no authority to resolve disputes himself amongst the people.

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If the local emir acted against the Caliph because of the directive and appointed the judge anywhere in the province,

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his decisions, according to Fidelity India, are void and no.

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So in short, the central point in this debate is the formation of the collegial sovereignty over Egypt in 1899.

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It reveals how appeals to automatically full authority shielded Muslim institutions and Islamic Courts,

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at least temporarily, from colonial interventions and immediate dismantling.

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So it took some time. I would suggest that the current accounts that dismiss Ottoman caliphate to 30 as purely symbolic or rhetorical understate that

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its historical significance as a key obstacle to the colonial hegemony and control over some of these Muslim institutions,

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like the warped for other or Islamic Courts, as we just as clear.

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So this leads me to my second to my second point about this debate about what exactly is sovereignty in Egypt.

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On the screen here, you can see four sentences to the Egyptians internal deliberations of the meaning

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they mentioned of the French word sovereignty or the English sovereignty.

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They said As you can see on the screen, let's say either OK or must read them or must which that is the most helpful element.

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We had no idea what exactly sovereignty could mean.

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Again, that was 1923. So in 1920 to March 1922,

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the Egyptian king issued a decree to form a construction committee to put together

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the Egyptian Constitution after independence so that constitution was preceded,

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of course, by Lindsay conversations and negotiations between Egypt and Britain and key disagreements about the

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British military prisons and supervision of some governmental function kind of hanging in there.

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I did not really was dissolved until that time period, but we have something very important.

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We have a duty. Reaction by key government official who was the minister of justice.

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It delays his assessment of this new project in relation to all the kind of history of the KGB in Egypt.

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His name is Ahmed Bashir. As of October was the Ministry of Justice in 1923.

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He wrote a memo in which he offered an assessment of the need to restore order compared to previous institutions in the pre-World War One.

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The gist of the memo, in my view, can be summarised in three points very quickly.

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Number one, the new constitutional monarchy diminished the power of the king significantly in relation to any authority of what they used to exist.

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Up to this point, second, the new order, in his view, was superior to the previous institutions, which suffered from,

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quote unquote limited legislative authority of the councils elect political accountability for the government.

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Third, the New Order expanded the representation of local constituencies and minorities.

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So to this minister to the victor, the most important article in 1922 read Constitution is number twenty three,

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and this article declared that all sources of authorities emanate from the Ummah from the nation on.

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Mahere does not mean the Muslim Jewish community, but here the Egyptian nation.

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He claims that in all previous political designs, he argued that were legal was the only source of authority legitimacy where he was

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able to share some of his power through legislative and ministerial councils.

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So the conversation about constitutional making in this period is key to the political orientation of these members who served on the committee.

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All of them, without exception, were attempting to formulate an Egyptian equivalent specific to a specific concept of certainty.

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All the references, with no exception, mentioned either the French, German,

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English or American forms of government for that Egypt to be able to follow and emulate.

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So I'd like to focus in this part very quickly on the rise of a key Arabic term C++.

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That came to be used as synonymous with sovereignty. I would suggest that although the term is taken for granted, yet, its history is rather obscure.

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I would like to make four preliminary observations. First, that word CIA has used today in our vocabulary.

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Sovereignty is only 100 years old.

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Second, the discussions of the committee of the first Egyptian Constitution after independence reveal that the term is contentious and ambiguous.

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Third, the term C++ was invented specifically to murder Western conceptions of sovereignty.

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Fourth, there were unsuccessful attempts to ground the emerging sovereign power of the Egyptian state with an Islamic political and legal tradition.

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For example, all attempts to use the word will air and instead of Ziyad were rejected.

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So now I'd like to share with you some of the content of these discussions inside the committee.

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On September 29, 1922,

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the following conversation were recorded amongst the members of the Construction Committee concerning the first article of the Constitution.

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So the first proposed phrasing of that article of expressing sovereignty of Egypt is that,

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as you can see on the screen muscle, Dowless seguida was the killer.

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They'll feel pressure protested the use of the Arabic word Yida elaborated that the

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committee members meant to express the meaning of the French term sovereignty in Arabic.

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He stressed that the term Yida in the Georgian, if that is the famous Arabic source,

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when you look up for some definitions used to mean of the word, say it or say that it was an them,

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or that you can manage that verse or govern the vast majority of people who propose instead that again in his mind,

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that they would say, you know, is actually going to fall short of the meaning or sovereign mean in Western political thought, OK?

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He thought, say that because it's only the vast majority, not everybody that's in the term is not actually deemed suitable.

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So he proposed instead to use the term will air. OK, so Tocqueville elaborated that the article would would then read as most.

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That will allow you to see how Egypt will have the authority to govern itself.

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So, well, somebody else stand up in the committee and propose that was to the famous Egyptian mufti again, like if Pasha.

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He did not support the use of the word Sayid or Ziad or Salem instead proposed the idea that muster,

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as you can see on the screen, the second sentence Mr. 2.8m or Egypt has the full capacity and authority.

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A third person rose up in the committee and said his name is Mahmud Abdel-Nasser Rebate, Arabic,

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objected to these attempts reveal that guys, we have spent so much time to find the translation sierra for that term sovereignty.

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So although the term C++ might be unfamiliar to many people, he acknowledged,

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but that term will only need time to be able to be able to be commonly used amongst people.

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So at this point, developers and other folks in the committee rejected all these claims and had the vote.

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The majority voted to use the word Sierra as the most important term that would come up in that framework,

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so I would just end by something very quickly here.

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One of the most important figures on this committee, his name is Abdulaziz Fahmi big and later became a prime minister.

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Foreign Minister interjected to emphasise the importance of stating that sovereignty

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in Egypt in the Constitution should become as the first word in the sentence,

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not the last word. As you can see here, they say Mr.

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On the second sentence, Mr. Dole affirms that the other was objected to use the word said at the end of the sentence,

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and he made a similar to this word to that phrase poor father. I had earlier.

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This is a very interesting simile and metaphor.

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He basically claimed CEDA as he understood it is the is the centre concept through which independence and freedom can emanate.

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And he use here, here in that phrase, who means God, Cordier omnipotent power, overpowering God.

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It says here that this sentence in Arabic does not make sense because we must use the word earlier to be first.

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You can say it there when or their own car here is basically he saying we must use the word C++.

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So he says Mr. That's yeah, that is exactly what came to be in the Constitution.

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So for them, their debates about sovereignty inside the committee, instead,

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the committee came to monitor a particular image a bit to understanding what somebody might look like in the emerging Egyptian state.

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I'm going to stop here. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Sam.

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Another really wonderfully rich presentation, and, you know, they actually strangely talk to each other across the centuries.

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So, you know, it'd be really nice to see you and the Queen talk to one another as well.

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I have a question for both of you in a way. And then Osama, maybe, and we have a number of questions in the chat.

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You know, naked, you begin with Tuck Sleeping Sovereign, which is very interesting because, of course,

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one of the things that book deals with is the latency of sovereignty that it actually goes to sleep.

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It's latent and it awakes. But whether it's boredom or perhaps even hobs, the the.

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The sovereign power asleep or awake has to be manifested somewhere or embodied institutionally somewhere,

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and it could be the figurative prince, or it could eventually be the figure of the people in the version that Tuck gets out of Rousseau.

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But what you seem to be arguing is, for a certain, a different kind of latency of sovereignty.

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Except in this case, in your case, it's actually not manifested or embodied in any specific office or group.

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And what I found fascinating is that it becomes really unattached.

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And so it can be the boys in Taylor who embody that in the name of Islam or as in Cologne,

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it could be a power that has violence built into it that could be exercised multiply.

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And I wonder, therefore, if you think in this period that you're dealing with and these narratives you're dealing with,

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whether it is possible to consider sovereignty, let's leave aside for the moment the problem of translation as an almost as a kind of pure principle.

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It really isn't like the Hobbesian sovereign located in the Prince,

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nor is it like a resolving form of sovereignty, which is latent or belongs to a popular sovereign assembly.

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It seems to function in a kind of conceptual register free of any specific office,

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nor do your thinkers seem to want to attach it firmly to any specific office.

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When you were talking about the Kenneth Abbasid Caliph, who is actually not the as it were location of that sovereign power,

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and for Sami again, really very interesting how linking up in a way to what McGinn was saying, how would this conflict with the cleave?

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And British advisers, how actually the beef comes to be the anti sovereign in some ways.

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And precisely because of that, sovereignty must reappear somewhere else, even in what apparently the most unusual of places.

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You know, the institutional formations that are supposedly below the office of the Achilles.

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And OK, they might refer to the caliphate distant as it is, or they might refer to Sharia, or they might refer to many other things.

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But it just it made me wonder whether the references either to the caliphate or the Sharia actually serve to legitimise this sovereignty,

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which is no longer attached to the figure of the Prince but cannot really serve as its repository.

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Which is perhaps why you end up with despite the continuing theological relationship there with that phrase that you condemned,

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et cetera, clear in the body of the people or in the state, in the nation, the Ummah as Egyptian nation.

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It also struck me as interesting the fact that while India as an Indian test is invoked,

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because if that is the same as the Fethullah Alam guilty as it is known in India,

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it's normally seen as an attempt by the Mughal Emperor to actually corral the religious classes and claim,

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if you will, a certain kind of added power, if not sovereign power for himself.

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So it's used in a completely different way in this set of debates. Yes, so and eventually, of course, as we know,

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sovereignty in a certain kind of Islam is Islamist thought that it comes to be expelled altogether and predicated of God.

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So it's a it's a kind of fascinating set of moves that are happening here, both in the in the kind of,

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you know, pre-modern situation that Negin is dealing with, where it seems to be a matter of principle.

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And in your case, Sami, where the prince actually becomes anti sovereign and therefore something else is happening.

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So sorry, a bit of a shaggy dog question, but I wonder if there's anything in it for either of you game?

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I mean, clearly the issue here is that sovereignty is, you know,

384
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:11,070
when you think about my paper in light of some whose presentation, then it actually makes a lot more sense.

385
00:42:11,070 --> 00:42:15,960
You know, the way in which I mean, sovereignty is debated as if it is something like,

386
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:21,300
I don't know, a degree or a charter that can be obtained or that can be replicated.

387
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:28,980
Whereas sovereignty, in fact, is and I mean, sovereignty is studied precisely in the West, which they're trying to emulate.

388
00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:35,760
Sovereignty is is a concept that has a history and it is not a function of the degree of

389
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:41,400
independence of a state or whether or not it can feed its population or build roads,

390
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:51,900
or do any of that. And that sort of very nicely, in fact, crystallises the debate to where you have in Azoulay joining in all the people that I read.

391
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:59,490
I mean, it is it is a given sovereignty is almost like a narrative construct to talk about politics.

392
00:42:59,490 --> 00:43:07,050
And clearly, like all narrative constructs that are forged to make political thought possible,

393
00:43:07,050 --> 00:43:13,080
they each and every one of them anywhere in the world, I mean, from prehistoric times to the present.

394
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:22,230
You have narrative, you have God. And I mean, you have you have a religious conception of a religious ritualistic conception of sovereignty.

395
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:26,930
Sovereignty is denoted in feathers on sovereignty is associated with the dance.

396
00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:32,850
Sovereignty is represented in ritual in its earliest iterations.

397
00:43:32,850 --> 00:43:40,680
And so the fascinating thing, the absolutely fascinating thing about mediaeval Islam is that it's precisely the way in which the

398
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:48,060
impersonal states that wooden and all the other ones acted would then pick up on that impersonal state.

399
00:43:48,060 --> 00:43:53,610
It is represented in triangulation. So you have neither Caleb nor Sultan.

400
00:43:53,610 --> 00:43:58,800
I mean, you writing precisely about what's the relationship between the Caliph and the Sultan in the 11th century.

401
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:04,110
That's when you get this debate at its best, and sovereignty belongs to neither nor.

402
00:44:04,110 --> 00:44:12,660
And sovereignty itself is represented in impersonal usage of the word Islam, which in a fascinating way.

403
00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:16,830
Of course, you find the same thing in Egypt in the Mamluk period. I think it is.

404
00:44:16,830 --> 00:44:25,740
Joseph Rappaport at the Queen Mary University now, who has this wonderful article about the way in which the legal system in monarchy.

405
00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:35,340
The changes in the legal system, in fact, sort of highlights the very close, intricate connexion between Sharia and CSA,

406
00:44:35,340 --> 00:44:44,590
which is of great concern, which is almost always in modern political discourse seen as rivals or pitted against one another.

407
00:44:44,590 --> 00:44:50,340
And it is in that triangulation you have, on the one hand in the narrative which fascinates.

408
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:57,020
Absolutely. And we have already dealt with this concept at all or with with the way, but the important.

409
00:44:57,020 --> 00:45:04,670
Thing is that we know it through its opposition, so that what is it that you write against?

410
00:45:04,670 --> 00:45:12,830
So when they're discussing sovereignty, what is it that they're writing against and it's not in theological discourse?

411
00:45:12,830 --> 00:45:19,820
They are not writing against secularity in any way or form when they write about sovereignty.

412
00:45:19,820 --> 00:45:27,200
Now, in modern disk, it is that there is this presumption of circularity with sovereignty that that is really,

413
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,750
you know, I think, limited to the world outside Europe. And in fact, it is.

414
00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:38,030
It reveals a complete misunderstanding of the archaeology of sovereignty in Europe.

415
00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:41,720
So in that sense, it is very illuminating.

416
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:51,530
I think it is to look at the ways in which this notion of an impersonal Islam that is a stand in for sovereignty for a thousand years.

417
00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:57,170
You can easily show this in different writings, in different contexts.

418
00:45:57,170 --> 00:46:03,560
And yet you see the way in which Islam is evoked has a latent and perpetual.

419
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:11,510
I mean, it's almost every single box. And then, of course, in the modern period, you have it.

420
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:16,700
But the real challenge of it becomes the sovereignty of the people.

421
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:22,880
So in the modern period, how does this exchange sort of get formulated?

422
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,660
Thanks very much. Asami, any comment? OK.

423
00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:34,940
Yes, thank you for your support. So in my current research and I do not really look carefully on the concept of sovereignty.

424
00:46:34,940 --> 00:46:39,740
So as I mentioned in terms of how was the rise of discussed, it just emanates.

425
00:46:39,740 --> 00:46:46,190
So in my work and look at the history of these of the institution of Islamic Courts in Egypt,

426
00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:49,910
and we have a general idea that heavily in research and went wrong.

427
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:52,010
It wrote about the history of the sport,

428
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:59,040
but it seemed that I'd like to get more details about what really happened in terms of these readjustments for,

429
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:06,710
for example, having Islamic Courts for the first time in Egyptian history, and it seems to have a specific date in nineteen ninety seven.

430
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:10,190
Then records have been limited to only family law on that date.

431
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:14,300
And I'd like to know how that happened, what they were, arguments that were put in that regard.

432
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:20,510
How Islamic law goes from being state courts suddenly became, quote unquote religious courts.

433
00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:28,580
I think we have a general idea, and I'd like to provide much more details to what exactly happened was argued in these details.

434
00:47:28,580 --> 00:47:31,280
I found conversation about sovereignty, to my surprise.

435
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:39,230
But I think it would have been a surprise because look, Islamic judges and Islamic muftis and these as had eased.

436
00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:44,660
At the same time, they understood that the existence of these situations is dependent on their ability to

437
00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:49,610
appeal to ultimately full order because it maintained its existence as an actual reality.

438
00:47:49,610 --> 00:47:54,080
OK, so the issue here is not simply the appealing to something that is ambiguous,

439
00:47:54,080 --> 00:48:01,520
but the understood clearly that the Ottoman sultan had an authority even if it was challenged, as you mentioned by the Khedive.

440
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,920
But to some extent they thought that they can invoke it, and I think they invoked it very effectively at the time.

441
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,750
What really happened is when the Ottomans lost the war, things has been completely changed.

442
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:17,060
So here we have an actual military defeat that will allow a certain type of arguments to be possible.

443
00:48:17,060 --> 00:48:24,380
That was not possible before deciding who, to be honest, which is the last one the ones that were discussing here before the war,

444
00:48:24,380 --> 00:48:30,680
he actually was kind of deposed by the British foreign minister when he was living in Istanbul.

445
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:37,610
So in short, yes, the conversation about sovereignty is very fascinating to see how the Khedive,

446
00:48:37,610 --> 00:48:44,600
even from the head of his many there was the 1970s every single Ottoman official who wrote on the subject.

447
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:53,150
And what the kid felt very clearly that the Egyptian officials and the Egyptian Active's who insisting on some more independence from the Ottomans,

448
00:48:53,150 --> 00:48:57,530
a very short sighted that they want to be very close to Europe, want to be part of Europe,

449
00:48:57,530 --> 00:49:02,810
they thought that will give them more leverage to these European powers over Egypt to

450
00:49:02,810 --> 00:49:06,620
shame them as they want in terms of appointing ministers for the for the Treasury,

451
00:49:06,620 --> 00:49:11,000
even the budgets for the British Army in Egypt. All of this was completely decided by the British.

452
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,040
And Egypt has no say in this. But this again,

453
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:20,360
that goes further when the British want to form can a new legal system or the new courts reform things and the British have specific ideas,

454
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,700
what religion look like in society, what family look like in society? That moment is different.

455
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:32,480
For example, when we look in 1922, when suddenly the idea is completely out of the picture, but not just that.

456
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:40,430
If you look, for example, with something about the rule of Al-Azhar who used to appoint Al-Azhar until the Egyptian history,

457
00:49:40,430 --> 00:49:43,160
an attitude that was the hardest that was in the periphery of the city,

458
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,850
we have something called the one that above that was in the purview of the Cardiff

459
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:51,890
game because that was he get his religious revisionism of the Ottomans in Egypt,

460
00:49:51,890 --> 00:49:58,460
and that was important. Review. The first thing the British did was to make sure that it has no money by taking this out of him and

461
00:49:58,460 --> 00:50:03,500
putting the above under the these parliamentary accounts that it actually able to form number one.

462
00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:08,750
Number two, they move the point of the laser into the hands of also the political elite.

463
00:50:08,750 --> 00:50:14,450
So it's a massive expansion of this secular political elite power to completely control the state,

464
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:18,770
not just the authorities, but law and Islamic law and everything within it.

465
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:25,820
I see consequences for some of these things. A consequence of it is that that the most Egyptian legal elites, especially stuck in a legal age,

466
00:50:25,820 --> 00:50:30,470
came to say that systemic courts are not possible for the modern Egyptian state.

467
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:36,740
Islamic law can be part of the civil law. But beyond that, there's no really need for some of these institutions.

468
00:50:36,740 --> 00:50:44,720
Thanks, thanks very much. Meet, Osama, do you have any comment so we can move to the we have five questions already.

469
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:46,760
There are plenty of questions and it's a bit noisy here.

470
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:53,960
So I will hopefully have the opportunity to participate in a really amazing discussion so far,

471
00:50:53,960 --> 00:51:00,530
and I don't want to deprive the various questioners from asking their questions, and I look forward to joining in midstream.

472
00:51:00,530 --> 00:51:04,730
Great. Shall we go back before the summer and ask in reading out the questions?

473
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:09,800
Absolutely. I'm happy to actually go ahead and read the first. Go ahead. Go ahead and please forgive me.

474
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,730
This some noise in the background occasionally, but hopefully you can hear me.

475
00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:15,950
And if there's any issues, please to let me know.

476
00:51:15,950 --> 00:51:22,280
So the first question comes from someone by the name of someone Ahmed who's asking, and it's not specified, who's being asked.

477
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,360
But I suspect this may be of interest to both of you.

478
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:33,470
Where does one place the concept of wilayat or sacred domain as implied in the context of Sufis of

479
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:39,290
the mediaeval sort of mediaeval South Asia in relation to sovereignty of the mediaeval sultan?

480
00:51:39,290 --> 00:51:44,240
Does it hold an intermediate domain between sovereignty of the Sultan and God?

481
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:49,380
That's the question. And I think this could be of interest to both of you.

482
00:51:49,380 --> 00:51:57,310
So but again, I think since we are dealing mediaeval, it might be in your terrain a little more.

483
00:51:57,310 --> 00:52:03,220
Purely to answer this question, I mean, I don't know some Ahmed either, but to answer this question,

484
00:52:03,220 --> 00:52:08,800
we have to this aggregate the problem and the question of the sovereignty of the Sultan.

485
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:14,740
I mean, the sovereignty of the sultan is itself a very compromised sovereignty, even in the best of times.

486
00:52:14,740 --> 00:52:19,890
There is nobody who sits there and vital. Yes, the sultan. Go, go, go. It's always the case.

487
00:52:19,890 --> 00:52:25,780
I mean, if anything, you know, in a sort of conventional 19th century type of conception,

488
00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:30,880
the thought that sovereignty would lie with the Caliph with or really with God himself.

489
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:35,140
I mean, there is no such thing as sovereignty of the sultan in Islamic political thought,

490
00:52:35,140 --> 00:52:42,460
so that the question of the sovereignty of God and the nation should between will air and the sovereignty of God.

491
00:52:42,460 --> 00:52:51,520
We know who gets to represent the sovereignty of God on Earth or how do we debate, but the discourse will be over who gets to represent it.

492
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,780
And I think that debate is sort of settled in the 10th century now.

493
00:52:55,780 --> 00:53:05,950
What does that exactly entail and in practise? How does it affect the, you know, it is one thing to study the lawyer of the Sultan of the Sufi,

494
00:53:05,950 --> 00:53:11,140
not in the 9th century, whereas, you know, by the time of the massive and these, of course, there is no sultan.

495
00:53:11,140 --> 00:53:17,350
And I mean, there is there's hardly God in many writings. I mean, this would be master is sovereign.

496
00:53:17,350 --> 00:53:26,740
And he shows that by acting out of time, out of out of space, he goes, you know, he owns the entire world in his command.

497
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:35,080
So I think the question needs to be replaced in order to be properly addressed and rephrase more in the sense

498
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:45,100
of how is the sovereignty or how is the sovereignty of the Sufi master represented in practise and in writing?

499
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:53,050
And what are the Connexions? And that will allow us to sort of rethink that or understand the notion of religion.

500
00:53:53,050 --> 00:53:57,880
But Gloria is really the intersection of political thought with political practise.

501
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:06,090
Otherwise, you studying nothing, you're studying blood. I mean, just to clarify, in a sense, you rephrase the question very nicely,

502
00:54:06,090 --> 00:54:10,500
and it would be sort of nice to get a little more of your thoughts on that.

503
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:18,270
But when you're saying, well, there is a political theory with political practise, the welfare of the sofa, of course,

504
00:54:18,270 --> 00:54:25,620
as you said, with respect to the natural Mondays and in the later period is fascinatingly not just a spiritual will have.

505
00:54:25,620 --> 00:54:33,220
But you know, as you put it, this kind of global will air. They in a sense controlled the Kings and the the Caliph and so on.

506
00:54:33,220 --> 00:54:40,800
And so I wonder what sort of strain that puts on, you know, notions of even caliph rules about different sort of sovereignty.

507
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,870
Obviously, the sultan is kind of seen as something of an illegitimate almost in some understandings,

508
00:54:45,870 --> 00:54:47,830
except when it's fused, maybe in the Ottoman context.

509
00:54:47,830 --> 00:54:54,990
But is there a conflict between the will, especially when I have enough Spanish and the Caliph, for example,

510
00:54:54,990 --> 00:54:59,700
will then about this will not happen, will not have to worry about that because there is no caliph.

511
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:07,860
I mean, the Caliph is in the tigress. The Mongols put him there and the map looks are pretending to be cages, but nobody takes that very seriously.

512
00:55:07,860 --> 00:55:10,020
But if you want to, you want to think about it.

513
00:55:10,020 --> 00:55:15,510
What's tremendously interesting is that from the 11th century, I mean, this is what intrigued by interesting.

514
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:20,760
I mean, what's interesting to me? So let's think about it like this, OK? And others will find other things interesting.

515
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:26,850
But you have to, you know, in the level, the problem with clearly early modern Islam is soup.

516
00:55:26,850 --> 00:55:32,400
Now, no matter how, you know, whether there is no such thing as Sufism, we all know there has to be movement.

517
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:39,780
There are gazillions of movements. Gazillions of Sufi conceptions with early modern history belongs to the Sufis.

518
00:55:39,780 --> 00:55:42,090
So then the question will be, you know,

519
00:55:42,090 --> 00:55:50,670
you can you can use early modern as an interesting concept that's sort of a heuristic device only if you understand it as leading you,

520
00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:57,210
taking you for one period and into another. So what does that change represent?

521
00:55:57,210 --> 00:56:03,870
How can that change? What is the historical process that is being manifested that is being reflected in

522
00:56:03,870 --> 00:56:10,080
the emergence of Sufi orders as the orders of history in the early modern period?

523
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:17,280
Now, in other words, that historical change is really a study of religious change.

524
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,840
And you know, while clearly the crystallisation is in the post Mongol period,

525
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:28,020
the trends begin in the 11th century before the Mongol period and the way it also

526
00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:33,330
crosses the Sunni-Shia divide completely so that in its model of authority,

527
00:56:33,330 --> 00:56:43,050
in the way it uses hedges, in the way it relates to this business of Sunni-Shia really ultimately makes absolutely no difference.

528
00:56:43,050 --> 00:56:47,400
And of course, the interesting thing is that that trend,

529
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:53,910
in spite of everything that we are reading about Sunni Shia, Sunni Shia, Sunni Shia, even in the 20th century,

530
00:56:53,910 --> 00:57:00,570
one of the most fascinating comparisons that you can make is between Hassan Hanafi and al-Qaida Yeti on the notion of how,

531
00:57:00,570 --> 00:57:07,650
you know when you used how he as a revolutionary concept. And in that sense, think about some of presentation.

532
00:57:07,650 --> 00:57:13,540
OK. So I mean, to me, it's it's amazing. Say it follows the hardship of Egypt.

533
00:57:13,540 --> 00:57:20,850
You know, there's if there's one person beholden to the to the West and to the Empire, it's the hardship of Egypt and especially the kind.

534
00:57:20,850 --> 00:57:30,930
I mean, we learn of it in our history classes at the beginning of the period, but it's like little Marosi.

535
00:57:30,930 --> 00:57:38,250
I mean, uses resorts to his conception or the conception of this secularised parliament of Egypt,

536
00:57:38,250 --> 00:57:42,090
the secular rising moment in Egyptian history that will be there.

537
00:57:42,090 --> 00:57:47,730
It becomes the vocabulary of Islamist political thought in the 1960s.

538
00:57:47,730 --> 00:57:53,700
So he doesn't use it. I mean, it does not go to heaven. He does not go to God.

539
00:57:53,700 --> 00:58:00,010
He does not go to jail. He does not go to any of those. He goes, and he uses the order.

540
00:58:00,010 --> 00:58:03,150
And, you know, in that sense, if you think about, for instance,

541
00:58:03,150 --> 00:58:11,880
the way Schultz distinguishes between the various arenas that this this classifies the various Islamist discourses in the modern period.

542
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:19,320
So which one, which ones use the past as myth and which ones use the past the past as utopia?

543
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,460
And how that affects the agenda that the revolutionary agenda that they set?

544
00:58:24,460 --> 00:58:26,730
But it's to me, it's fascinating that, you know,

545
00:58:26,730 --> 00:58:35,370
from the 11th century until the sort of the 20th century you have people reading each other and then all of a sudden in the 20th century,

546
00:58:35,370 --> 00:58:41,340
from Islamists to king to secular to whoever is sitting there is arguing whether or

547
00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:47,080
not our sovereignty is as good as the European one or that we should rethink it.

548
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:53,770
Thank you very much, and again, I guess for some, you have your hand up and I think you have plenty to add to this conversation,

549
00:58:53,770 --> 00:58:57,520
so I'll just hand it over to Sammy and then basically you can take it there on.

550
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:05,200
That's what I suggest very quickly. I'll be surprised if Islamists will go back to Brazil intervening here because again,

551
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:10,360
the entire system that they are functioning with is not based on some of these conceptions.

552
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:18,310
I would even claim something that actually come in the conversations amongst these committee members who founded the Egyptian constitutional 1923.

553
00:59:18,310 --> 00:59:22,630
I would claim that sovereignty Oceana is a rejection of malaria.

554
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:30,670
Look, Abdullah just finally made the argument, saying, Guys, Egypt can be independent and can be free but cannot be sovereign.

555
00:59:30,670 --> 00:59:35,140
He says Egypt was never sovereign in the bottom. Egypt was not sovereign under the British.

556
00:59:35,140 --> 00:59:42,610
Even claims that look, Algeria and Tunisia were described in the Constitution under the defence to be free and independent.

557
00:59:42,610 --> 00:59:47,260
So for him, sovereignty is not wilayat clearly as they understood it.

558
00:59:47,260 --> 00:59:52,000
So, for example, he added that Egypt had no sovereignty under these times because sovereignty

559
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,980
is basically is the ultimate authority beyond which there's no other power.

560
00:59:56,980 --> 01:00:05,140
So he argued that in Egypt, sovereignty is made of three elements Homeland Watan Second Nation.

561
01:00:05,140 --> 01:00:12,700
On the third, the ability to govern this nation within this homeland, as was the ability to legislate for them.

562
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:18,820
So the absolute sovereign power diminished shares to family any authority beyond it.

563
01:00:18,820 --> 01:00:23,590
So I guess my proposal here is that the modern conception of sovereignty are intentionally

564
01:00:23,590 --> 01:00:30,520
a rupture designed to move away from what Muslim Blake of what used to function is not.

565
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:36,220
So I get a bit sometimes surprised by people think that we can have the continuation of some sort,

566
01:00:36,220 --> 01:00:43,660
that this is not the conversation of people who made up this new system. They reject that system for obvious reasons that state them themselves.

567
01:00:43,660 --> 01:00:52,230
I'm going to stop here. Thanks, Sam. So we have a couple of, you know, one for Nadine and then another one for Sammy.

568
01:00:52,230 --> 01:01:00,810
So the one from the Guinness Millard Darby. I'm really trying to understand your methodological intervention if I understand correctly your

569
01:01:00,810 --> 01:01:07,710
highlight one the limit imposed by the European canon in both the West and modernising Islamic world,

570
01:01:07,710 --> 01:01:17,070
and to the emphasis of scholars who face the limit of the canon on income, insurability and untranslated ability of the Islamic past.

571
01:01:17,070 --> 01:01:21,360
Can you elaborate on your methodological way out of this, Abbas?

572
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:26,880
Are you suggesting that the modern schmitty, an exceptional concept of sovereignty,

573
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,620
is sufficient to translate across past and present Islam and the West?

574
01:01:31,620 --> 01:01:37,300
Hopefully, my misunderstanding can help you further elaborate your argument.

575
01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:40,840
Well, thank you. Well, you put this question, no,

576
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:48,040
your misunderstanding will not help me further elaborate my argument two more hours of sitting here and discussing this will.

577
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:56,650
But obviously we can't do that. It's very interesting. This is exactly how I used to write my own questions when I attended talks 20 years ago.

578
01:01:56,650 --> 01:02:02,260
I really don't. There's one. I mean, there's no methodological impasse.

579
01:02:02,260 --> 01:02:11,740
All we need to do is to read the texts and read the past. I mean, this is the notion of sovereignty itself and the modern debates of sovereignty.

580
01:02:11,740 --> 01:02:21,250
Sony has shown that too has its own moment in history, which is when these lawmakers are sitting in the 1920s and saying we cannot use

581
01:02:21,250 --> 01:02:26,290
concepts of the past to write about sovereignty because sovereignty is different.

582
01:02:26,290 --> 01:02:32,440
Now, obviously, this is tied in to the notion of all the state and the notion of Islam and

583
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:39,400
the way in which Islam is is seen and sort of internalised as the impediment.

584
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:45,520
It's seen as religion, be it seen as an impediment to modern political life.

585
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:50,260
So that, for instance, if you think about the ideology of the word sovereignty itself,

586
01:02:50,260 --> 01:02:54,610
that etymology is very clearly tied to kinship and it preserves.

587
01:02:54,610 --> 01:03:00,160
It is maintained and preserved. When kinship itself is abolished, sovereignty does not.

588
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:06,470
Not sort of get tossed into the dustbin of history when you have a republic.

589
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:10,100
Although it very clearly is tied to the concept of sovereignty.

590
01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:17,960
But in the deliberations of the Egyptian parliament, if we are to examine on his word, then precisely because like,

591
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:24,080
for instance, we don't have we take if we don't talk about it, we can talk about bologna or because we don't want things.

592
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:33,290
We don't write about Malta, which has such a rich conceptual history in the writings, in the political, military, modern political discourse.

593
01:03:33,290 --> 01:03:38,630
Well, that precisely that average and precisely that. Whether it's felicitous or not.

594
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:46,490
But that effort is a part of the archaeology of sovereignty in the world so that when you look at that, I mean,

595
01:03:46,490 --> 01:03:54,320
a lot of the history of the early 20th century is taken up precisely with these questions now by critics of governments,

596
01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:04,430
by governments themselves and across even divides of sovereignty, sovereignty as an independent states or in the case of the Bible,

597
01:04:04,430 --> 01:04:12,600
Egypt, which of course, independence is that is indirect at best or sovereignty is discussed indirectly at best.

598
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:20,690
People that could be what Egypt is to higher notions of authority even as fiction, so that, in other words,

599
01:04:20,690 --> 01:04:27,290
the history of sovereignty in the Islamic world in the 21st century is a war in the second half of

600
01:04:27,290 --> 01:04:34,130
the 20th century will have to reflect these very deliberations over what it is that or what it is.

601
01:04:34,130 --> 01:04:42,380
How is it the sovereignty can be defined? But when we are studying it, milord, we are.

602
01:04:42,380 --> 01:04:46,130
Am I suggesting that the modern schmitty an exceptional concept of sovereignty?

603
01:04:46,130 --> 01:04:49,800
There is nothing moderate in Schmidt's articulation.

604
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:56,840
Midgets himself is the first one to concede that this idea that you stand outside of the law and you stand outside of God,

605
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:02,030
I mean, that's why it's political theology. It's political theology because it sort of starts with God.

606
01:05:02,030 --> 01:05:09,950
That is precisely the role that God himself envisaged, the role that is envisaged for God in the Old Testament.

607
01:05:09,950 --> 01:05:16,850
So what exactly is modern political thought and the elephant in the room is in or indeed,

608
01:05:16,850 --> 01:05:26,480
any of these discussions is whether or not we bow to the implement suitability between political thought and political institutions on the ground.

609
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:32,230
But that is not an issue that can be result in a discussion on political thought.

610
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:39,040
In other words, whether or not we have a robust nation state that corresponds to robust discussions of sovereignty,

611
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:44,860
we have robust discussions of sovereignty in Islamic history precisely where there are robust crises

612
01:05:44,860 --> 01:05:51,520
in political representation and political authority as an 11th century as in the 20th century,

613
01:05:51,520 --> 01:06:03,510
so that a robust discussion is not existence or absence of sovereignty is something that I think will not lead to a fruitful discussion.

614
01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:09,690
That's what we mean by a concept that is perennial by a principle that is found across cultures,

615
01:06:09,690 --> 01:06:17,430
across times, there is no such thing as a political order without a notion of sovereignty.

616
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:22,920
Thank you very much, thinking again. Very, very rich sort of reflections on the process.

617
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:29,610
Both of you and I wish we had a lot more time than we have, unfortunately, but we only have another 13 minutes or so.

618
01:06:29,610 --> 01:06:35,580
And I wanted to ask Sammy the next question. I'm going to ask the question that Maria Scalia has asked,

619
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:42,810
but I must say it's tie in with that based on a comment you just threw in where you in a rather animated fashion, if I may say so,

620
01:06:42,810 --> 01:06:48,270
pointed out that these people were trying to create a distinction that the people who are coming

621
01:06:48,270 --> 01:06:53,700
up with this modern notion of the other were trying to depart from the previous tradition.

622
01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:58,620
So why would modern Islamists try and jump over them and engage in?

623
01:06:58,620 --> 01:07:01,470
But I mean, I think the the common understanding, of course,

624
01:07:01,470 --> 01:07:06,540
is that modern Islamists are a mediaeval throwback and there are various ways in which that's,

625
01:07:06,540 --> 01:07:11,670
you know, a misunderstanding, but they also very often market themselves in that way.

626
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:17,370
Right? I mean, they often will say that, look, we are engaging with the original sources and so on.

627
01:07:17,370 --> 01:07:21,480
But I suppose you point out in response to my question that, you know,

628
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:27,870
reaching for the original sources isn't the same as reaching for Azadi or Jawani or Al-Marayati, right?

629
01:07:27,870 --> 01:07:34,410
And so I guess my question is that my own personal question before I get to my desk today is the name of his recent book,

630
01:07:34,410 --> 01:07:40,920
which I don't know if you've had the time to read, but you know, he posits, in my view, rather provocatively,

631
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:49,920
but in many respects rather compellingly that, you know, there isn't sufficient continuity to really refer to this as the same tradition in the

632
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:55,140
MacIntyre instance that Assad posits this notion of Islam being a discursive tradition.

633
01:07:55,140 --> 01:08:00,240
And so even these modern sort of like modernist groups can be considered to be part of this old tradition.

634
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:05,670
But in a sense, they have made a very deliberate rupture with that tradition, as you illustrates.

635
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:11,790
And so they can't really be considered part of the same tradition. I'd love to hear your take on that and that the serious question is,

636
01:08:11,790 --> 01:08:19,680
would Sonni expand on the definition and scope of he's written it in Persian Bela Lamarr, please?

637
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:29,460
This concept seems similar to the narrative healthy, which is obviously the key concept that is currently sort of ruling Iran, and nobody asks at.

638
01:08:29,460 --> 01:08:33,660
My understanding was that such a concept was really a concept rather.

639
01:08:33,660 --> 01:08:37,530
But it looks like within some ism there is a comparable sort of notion.

640
01:08:37,530 --> 01:08:41,430
Thank you. Thank you so much, and thank you, Mary, for your question.

641
01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:45,480
So I did not mention anything about something school with Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, just to be clear.

642
01:08:45,480 --> 01:08:52,260
And I don't claim that all of my even made this kind of proposition themselves look in my current work.

643
01:08:52,260 --> 01:09:00,570
There is a general thesis that is obviously and kind of maintaining the field in relation to the secularisation of law in Egypt,

644
01:09:00,570 --> 01:09:04,620
the famous work by Assad and others, which show this very clearly.

645
01:09:04,620 --> 01:09:05,010
However,

646
01:09:05,010 --> 01:09:13,470
I would say that intellectual history is insufficient to give us insights into the process by which that was again brought into materiality people.

647
01:09:13,470 --> 01:09:21,900
I would claim in my current work that if we give a much more attention to what I claim is procedure,

648
01:09:21,900 --> 01:09:30,000
a procedure is a very mundane, very technical field of research, I think is much more.

649
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:35,220
It is not interesting side of historical research. I think this is actually we must look more carefully into this.

650
01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:39,690
For example, Egypt started the rise of Italy ahead of it.

651
01:09:39,690 --> 01:09:44,970
Now we have every sitting has has. Is it always a regulation of some sort?

652
01:09:44,970 --> 01:09:51,630
Literally, they have for organising wear donkeys, goes in Egypt, have them as soon as they have with the mosques.

653
01:09:51,630 --> 01:09:58,350
So this everywhere there's but also I have, of course, I have fought for so many things going on in this regard.

654
01:09:58,350 --> 01:10:04,260
I think when you look into what details of this procedural law that made them some of these things possible,

655
01:10:04,260 --> 01:10:12,180
for example, in Islamic Courts, we learnt in the 1980s. Less than 20 percent of Islamic Courts decision was actually applied.

656
01:10:12,180 --> 01:10:16,260
I was shocked about that. I wasn't aware. So how that was possible?

657
01:10:16,260 --> 01:10:23,580
I learnt that in the late in nineteen ninety seven, the heyday of past a quote unquote administrative position decision,

658
01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:29,220
saying that those who will enforce Islamic Courts decisions are, quote unquote jihadi.

659
01:10:29,220 --> 01:10:34,320
They are literally means administrative employees is no longer a kind of law enforcement.

660
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,940
If you think about it, this is completely unlike how this national course is to operate.

661
01:10:38,940 --> 01:10:43,350
My point of departure here is saying this is certain of procedural rules that made

662
01:10:43,350 --> 01:10:48,510
possible why people started going to these national courts and not Islamic Courts.

663
01:10:48,510 --> 01:10:51,510
Not because these things are more interesting or new and modern,

664
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:59,220
but for procedural and much more mid-tier reasons that made exceedingly difficult for you to get your positions and your judgement to be enforced.

665
01:10:59,220 --> 01:11:03,420
Getting anything out of this is more expensive and so on and so forth.

666
01:11:03,420 --> 01:11:08,790
So I think this is a much more interesting side to look into onto into the details

667
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:14,070
of that process of securitisation and how this institutional demarcation functions.

668
01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:16,970
To my surprise, if you ask anybody who study.

669
01:11:16,970 --> 01:11:23,720
Hurricane law today, for example, we know everything who's American judges, the names, what they do, the position, the politics, the favourite foods.

670
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:29,720
If you ask the same question about Muslim judges in Egypt, no one knows anything about the names of what these guys came from.

671
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:35,970
So they are nameless. We reduce them into a position of law. We have nothing about the networking, the training.

672
01:11:35,970 --> 01:11:39,740
Again, I think this is completely not something that we should undertake.

673
01:11:39,740 --> 01:11:42,920
We need to look into this more carefully in this way.

674
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:49,190
So this all in a class of people thought into uncertainty, but they gave about Muslim judges until today.

675
01:11:49,190 --> 01:11:53,930
There's no any history is. Was there any of the Ministry of Justice in Egypt still today?

676
01:11:53,930 --> 01:12:01,100
Who is this minister? The picture? It's very difficult to find individual details are completely out there, but you have to look into this.

677
01:12:01,100 --> 01:12:08,330
I found this to be more important than simply asserting a general abstract theories about how things are defunct in Egypt.

678
01:12:08,330 --> 01:12:13,250
Because without these details, I think we'll lose a lot to question about Islamists.

679
01:12:13,250 --> 01:12:16,070
Look, I'm no expert in the field, either. You're the expert.

680
01:12:16,070 --> 01:12:22,850
My point was just a basic observation that people would say what Islamists are not engaging with doing so.

681
01:12:22,850 --> 01:12:28,580
And my point, why doing it and why nobody does embody inform how the Egyptian state functioned today.

682
01:12:28,580 --> 01:12:33,890
Domestic price, for example, I'm working with this Egyptian Constitutional Court, which claims that in Egypt,

683
01:12:33,890 --> 01:12:41,240
the president is really in Egypt, the Constitution, that the judiciary made clear that the president is no longer really.

684
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:47,090
But that court affirm that the president is willing and I wonder where this coming from.

685
01:12:47,090 --> 01:12:53,870
This is not coming from to Egypt, for sure. This is this is wrong.

686
01:12:53,870 --> 01:12:56,000
I'm going to stop there because the level a lot of questions.

687
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:05,810
But this is the funny part about this that it's unclear how the modern government functions allow themselves to authorities by simple.

688
01:13:05,810 --> 01:13:13,100
We take for granted that somehow the Egyptian Supreme Court in Egypt today in the moment which is speaking somehow can sell the Koran on Sunday.

689
01:13:13,100 --> 01:13:21,560
If you meet some of these judges in person or meet an Iraqi or Syrian judge in person, we'll see the immediate difference in training language.

690
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:27,860
There is receptive to Islamic law. And yet with a firm, something that is Islamic law, we should somehow take that for granted.

691
01:13:27,860 --> 01:13:31,670
And this is the reason why Islamic like that in Egypt. I'm not taking them seriously.

692
01:13:31,670 --> 01:13:35,510
I think this is completely something to be approached further.

693
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:41,320
Thank you. Thank you very much, Sammy. First of all, I don't know if you want to take things any further.

694
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:46,150
I understand we need to wrap up in about five minutes and we do have a couple

695
01:13:46,150 --> 01:13:50,060
of very brief questions and they seem to be more about the capable state.

696
01:13:50,060 --> 01:13:53,200
So I was going to redirect them to Sammy.

697
01:13:53,200 --> 01:14:01,150
And I, as per usual in these wonderful seminars, have a whole list of questions which could take us on for another hour.

698
01:14:01,150 --> 01:14:07,900
But I'm not going to talk to anyone at this point in time. But just these two questions very briefly.

699
01:14:07,900 --> 01:14:10,570
I think they may be the same question from Mohammed Shahin,

700
01:14:10,570 --> 01:14:17,260
who asks what was the extent of the Ottoman state in Egypt and the other one basically rephrase it.

701
01:14:17,260 --> 01:14:20,560
This is the extent of the influence that the Ottoman states, in particular Egypt.

702
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,910
So this is more for Sami. Thank you. OK,

703
01:14:23,910 --> 01:14:28,380
so the answer this question would based on what time period that we are discussing the time

704
01:14:28,380 --> 01:14:35,430
period that I'm currently focussing on in colonial Egypt when the British occupied in 1882.

705
01:14:35,430 --> 01:14:44,040
In this context that the British had actual material, military power and administration over Egypt under the Ottoman.

706
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:50,690
So in this framework, the Ottomans had some say on on some things and not others.

707
01:14:50,690 --> 01:14:55,170
So you have a specific answer to the controls of that power.

708
01:14:55,170 --> 01:14:59,760
Well, I don't think we can, but we can see some of these glimpses to the Ottoman.

709
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:07,470
Ottoman Sultan has to issue a foreman for the appointments of the PDP, for example, even if the idea was was fired by the British.

710
01:15:07,470 --> 01:15:14,340
But usually they need to have an official ultimately sultan edict or decree to allow a new position.

711
01:15:14,340 --> 01:15:18,810
And you could have to come to power some of the issues with regard to Egypt seeking loans.

712
01:15:18,810 --> 01:15:24,210
Issues with regard to going to international treaties that are kind of the ultimate has always been involved in this

713
01:15:24,210 --> 01:15:33,390
conversation in terms of the internal administration of the Egypt that was really completely separate due to a great extent.

714
01:15:33,390 --> 01:15:40,260
However, Islamic Courts again ironically continue to be a symbol of optimum political sovereignty in Egypt because look,

715
01:15:40,260 --> 01:15:44,730
Islamic courts across what I call East London under the Ottomans.

716
01:15:44,730 --> 01:15:51,000
If you go and litigated the case in front of a Muslim judge in Jerusalem or Muslim judge in Anatolia,

717
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:55,470
a Muslim judge, Syria, Muslim religion, Egypt, all of the judgements were valid.

718
01:15:55,470 --> 01:15:59,870
If you just bring the judgement to Egypt and get enforces them for you, there's no problem at all.

719
01:15:59,870 --> 01:16:06,480
OK, so the assumption then that that system was in fact it is part of how the Ottoman order is to function.

720
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:10,110
Now that, of course, can a completely diminished after were one.

721
01:16:10,110 --> 01:16:15,690
So again, the question can be answered different ways that will depends on exactly what the institutions,

722
01:16:15,690 --> 01:16:20,490
what table domains would like to investigate and so on and forth.

723
01:16:20,490 --> 01:16:28,720
Thank you very much. I think I'll hand over to Faisal at this point. Yes, so let's shall we give the last word to Negin and then we can cynically.

724
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:36,550
Well, all I want to say is that it is a very rich discussion, and I'm very glad that we had it.

725
01:16:36,550 --> 01:16:44,500
I think that the question of whether or not Sally adequately engages with Giovanni

726
01:16:44,500 --> 01:16:50,800
instead of the Egyptian Constitution of 1923 is not the answer to the question,

727
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,080
of course, is not. Why should he think he doesn't?

728
01:16:54,080 --> 01:17:02,680
But the question is why he does it and to compare him with other Islamist thinkers of the period when back did.

729
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:11,290
And that itself will, I think, go a long way in explaining, for instance, from the legal point of view,

730
01:17:11,290 --> 01:17:20,230
one of the most interesting things about Islamic Courts in the 19th century is that as the state becomes more secular,

731
01:17:20,230 --> 01:17:29,860
the jurists in fact become more independent. So the secularity or the secular quotient in the political apparatus becomes

732
01:17:29,860 --> 01:17:37,270
a lot more fortified as a result of a number of factors in the 19th century.

733
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:44,680
And then the jurists become more independent and they adjudicate and they theorise in completely new ways.

734
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:51,340
There's a wonderful article by Kristol Burner on the legal history of Iran in the 19th century,

735
01:17:51,340 --> 01:18:00,130
and which will is precisely on new, I mean, completely new innovations in Islamic contracts.

736
01:18:00,130 --> 01:18:06,340
The print the place where you would not expect to study as the locus of legal change,

737
01:18:06,340 --> 01:18:11,680
but in the study of contracts, which you know, as a as a very prevalent branch of Islamic law,

738
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:22,060
has a long history of completely new contracts, new ideas of contracts that emerge in the 19th century as the legal system changes

739
01:18:22,060 --> 01:18:27,910
in response to the growth of the development of a secular state apparatus.

740
01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:34,200
So I think that the last word on that debate is yet to be said.

741
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:38,940
We have to stay tuned in for it. But thank you everyone for it.

742
01:18:38,940 --> 01:18:46,000
I very much enjoyed this session. Thank you so much. I've actually pulled up what the next session is.

743
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:47,380
Would you like me to do it or do you have?

744
01:18:47,380 --> 01:18:53,380
Yes, please, please announce that, you know, just very briefly, thank you to everyone for attending this week.

745
01:18:53,380 --> 01:18:59,050
It's really been a wonderful and very engaging seminar, and in two weeks time, this is a fortnightly seminar.

746
01:18:59,050 --> 01:19:05,500
We'll be having Mr Inbetween and Mourad Idrees both coming in from different parts of the world.

747
01:19:05,500 --> 01:19:10,330
The theme is violence and misery, and we'll be talking about debating militancy in the modern world.

748
01:19:10,330 --> 01:19:16,330
Whereas Malala will be talking about theorising colonialism, capitalism and violence in an Islamist key.

749
01:19:16,330 --> 01:19:21,280
So we'll be back with the Islamists before long. Thank you so much to both of you.

750
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:22,240
Thanks.

751
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:32,140
And it really has been an eye-opening hour and a half, and we look forward to having you in Oxford in person again before long and until next time.

752
01:19:32,140 --> 01:19:43,850
Have a good evening. Bye bye.