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So welcome all to the fourth iteration of the Oxford Political Hall seminar,

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and we are delighted to welcome today Nasrin Badawi from the American University in Cairo and morality degrees from the University of Michigan,

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who will both be addressing the issue of violence in different times and places.

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I will invite some. I'll ask me my co-convenor to introduce them properly.

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The stream will begin and speak for 20 minutes and then be followed by Murad for another 20 minutes, after which we shall have Q&A.

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And if you should have any questions, please put them either in the Q&A box anonymously or under your own name or in the chat box.

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And if you're unable absolutely to do that, you can raise your hand and I can or someone can call upon you and you can start

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asking you questions during the talks so as not to wait until they finish.

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So with that, I'll hand over to you long. Thank you very much and welcome to business Raine and Murad.

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It's really wonderful to have you here from across the Atlantic or the Mediterranean, as the case may be,

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and I'm just going to introduce the three in your biographical background and then please feel free to sort of launch into your discussion.

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So in the Badawi is a an associate professor in the Department of Political Science at the American University in Cairo.

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He is an associate professor of public and international law, and she received her Ph.D. from the School of Oriental and African Studies.

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He holds an Al-Alam in international comparative law and a licence and a B.A. in Political Science.

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So badly has experienced working in the United Nations within the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

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on Refugee Law and has offered consultancy work to several organisations on humanitarian and Islamic law.

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Your relatively recently published book in 2019 is in touch with some key recipients on the regulation of armed conflict with Israel,

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and we look forward to your lecture on Islamic conceptions of violence in the modern period.

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So without further ado, please go ahead.

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Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be with you here today, and I'm looking forward to the discussion we're going to have today.

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I'm just going to give a brief introduction of what I intend to talk about today.

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And the the focus of my talk today is how different Muslim actors have attempted to reformulate and interpret

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Islamic regulations on armed conflict and rules of war and Islamic jurisprudence in the modern context.

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And I'm going to look at three main actors.

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The first actor that I'm going to look at is Muslim institutions with a focus on Al-Azhar and its approach to Islamic rules of war.

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And then I'm going to look at two examples of mainstream scholars who are independent scholars whereby highly the Syrian scholar and useful.

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Just to give a sense of mainstream approaches to Islamic law, to Islamic laws of war.

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And then I'm going to shift to a discussion of militant groups and their interpretations of

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Islamic laws of war with a focus on al-Qaida and the Islamic State to start out this discussion.

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I think that one there's an important framing question premise that needs to be taken,

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which is understanding the dilemma that many of Muslim states in the Muslim world that we're faced with,

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which is the post-colonial moment and them and a move towards independence and understanding how Muslim

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institutions and how Muslim scholars interpreted Islamic law cannot be separated from that moment.

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With the with the rise in pressure for legal reform and the assertion on the primacy and the supremacy of European inspired laws,

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including international law. We see a shift towards an attempt towards an assertion of Islamic law and see with international humanitarian law.

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So in the 50s and the 60s, we see a rise in scholarship that addresses the question of Islamic laws of war,

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whether within the Muslim world or from Muslim scholars who are in Western academia,

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such as having the more magical warrior and from within the Muslim world itself.

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I have extensively at Alonzo's conferences, the National Polls Islamia, which is a scholarly community under under the auspices of Al-Azhar,

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and it has conducted seven annual conferences to address issues of Islamic rule, and we see a focus on Islamic.

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Laws of war and scholarship, understanding Islamic laws of war in that era.

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And my argument is that that's I mean that focus is heavily influenced by an attempt

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to emulate the principles of international law with regards to come back and see.

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For example, a scholar like Mohammed Posada, who has dedicated extensive focus to Islamic laws of war,

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offers an interpretation of Islamic law that largely. Aligns with our understanding of Islamic law in order to do that.

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My argument is that much of significant features of Islamic law are suppressed in order to in order to arrive at that Congress.

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One important feature that is suppressed is the question of diversity and that this is closely connected to an attempt to offer an authoritative,

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singular interpretation of Islamic law,

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but also closely connected to the idea of singular law and the idea of the sovereign authority establishing one interpretation of law.

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So we see diversity suppressed and issues that have been contested and have been heavily negotiated and elaborated

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upon by jurists leading to different interpretations are largely treated as a singular interpretation.

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For that, I'll use the example of combatants or the example of who may be targeted under the Islamic legal tradition.

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Of course, the notion of come back and see in and of itself is a modern notion that is heavily associated with the rise of full-fledged armies,

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the under the auspices of a sovereign state, so it cannot be separated from that.

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But in order to offer an interpretation that those who do not participate in fighting may not be targeted.

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We see a selective reliance on the jurisprudence and suppression of the diverse

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views of jurisprudence of different jurists who offer varying interpretations.

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For example, if we look at the classic tradition, we see a varying use.

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So with on the one hand, you have Hanafi views such as showband you, for example,

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who list certain categories which may not be targeted because they're unable to participate in fighting.

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And that list is rather expensive, expensive to include the categories that are common to those who are familiar with the samples of war,

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such as women, children, older men, the blind, the crippled hard labourers and so on and so forth.

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So an explicit list. And we move away from that.

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Then we see, for example, to the other end of the spectrum.

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We see scholars like al-shughur and hasn't who assert that men who have reached the age of puberty maybe may be targeted.

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So a very different interpretation. And within those different interpretations,

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there is an extensive examination of the force's extensive examination of prophetic traditions and practises to arrive at that interpretation.

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But all of that is suppressed in the modern interpretation in order to arrive at that singular interpretation.

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The argument that those who do not participate in fighting may not be targeted.

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Another feature that is closely connected to the question of suppression of diversity is selectivity and selectivity that is often incoherent.

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So unlike, for example, in earlier approaches to Islamic law,

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where we see jurists following a particular school of thought and they espouse that jurisprudential school's positions,

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we see an eclectic choice that is largely reminiscent of the process of the future.

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But with with but with no coherence, so a shuffling might be relied on in a particular position to advance a certain view.

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And his use might be disregarded if they are if they are not seen as befitting of the argument that

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the author is making and that approach and that methodology of interpreting Islamic laws of war,

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I argue, continues to live on until the present day.

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So another significant stage that we see Islamic jurists confronted with is the moment of 9-11 in the post-9 and post-9

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11 and the rise in arguments about Islamic militancy and the surge in arguments about how we interpret Islamic laws.

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Treatment of 9-11 leads to again, a renewed interest in that,

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and we see very similar approaches with with the addition of a new significant

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approach which is reliant on older regimes of jurisprudence that may have offered,

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may have been developed for a different set of acts to end trying to apply them to the crime of terrorism.

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And I used the example of Arabic book, which is a regime that in the classic jurisprudence,

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is often seen as reserved for highway robbery and banditry,

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explicitly criminal activity that deals with and and a crime that receives the highest,

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perhaps the harshest punishment in an Islamic law and taking that and extrapolating it to the crime of terrorism.

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And that becomes a very common feature of the approach of mainstream jurisprudence and particularly

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those who are affiliated with the state in order to deal with the crime of terrorism.

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In parallel to that, we see suppression, complete suppression or silence on the regime of Bashar,

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which is the regime that deals with which which which has normally been the

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regime that deals with political violence under classical Islamic jurisprudence.

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The reason Bali is suppressed is not surprising because the regime of Barry is to some extent rather agnostic to whether or not you have the right

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to rebel and focuses more extensively on regulating the acts of rebellion and provides extensive protections for the different warring parties,

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including extensive protections for the rebelling group.

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I mean, so you have scholars who argue that rebel that rebellion groups, if they flee, if they flee the battle, they may not be pursued there.

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Their wounded may not be dispatched and other arguments that are largely restrictive,

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including extensive restrictions on the confiscation of their books property that is not necessarily a regime

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that lends itself to utilisation by a sovereign state in our understanding of the modern sovereign state.

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Hence, it's not surprising that it is disregarded and that there is that we see leaning towards a much more permissive

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regime in terms of punishment and a regime that is that provides a harsher judgement of the act of violence itself,

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which is the regime of of heroin.

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Two, to a great extent, that is the moment, I mean, or that is the general discourse that we see until the rise of ISIS,

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but the rise of ISIS, and I'm going to come back to that when I talk about militant groups.

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Is a perplexing moment for mainstream scholars,

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because ISIS collapses old categories just as the category of Arab and Betty is collapsed by mainstream jurists,

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ISIS even goes a step further by expanding apostasy extensively beyond any other expansion that we see by other militant

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groups in order to resort to the regime of apostasy to to justify their practises with the different warring parties,

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including civilians living under the control of the Muslim regimes who are deemed apostates by the Islamic State.

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However, the response by official mainstream institutions does not necessarily live up to the premise of fighting against that change.

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In some areas, they're successful in other areas. They seem to falter.

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So when it comes to food, for example, we see a very solid assertion on.

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The classic doctrine, the classic Ashwari doctrine of limiting the purview of the fear and limiting the resort to that fear.

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And we see a basis there. But when it comes to other.

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Areas that ISIS relies or other claims that ISIS makes.

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We see a much weaker and resort to draw to the jurisprudence to push back against ISIS and use here the example of hacking me,

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the assertion on the need to uphold Islamic law and order for a regime to govern Muslim

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societies and the destruction of that is a benchmark to assess Islamist city of the regime.

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With that, we see punchlines. We see general statements that do not necessarily offer a serious and concerted

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effort to deal with questions of democracy and how and how we understand democracy,

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questions of cost of law and how and what the space for positive law is within a legitimate Muslim regime and in the modern context.

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And part of my argument is that this is hardly surprising considering the very

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difficult terrain that official Muslim institutions are trying to tread,

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because on the one hand, they need to assert their legitimacy, they need to maintain their legitimacy.

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But on the other hand, their relationships with the different regimes and their relationships with sovereign

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states who rely on positive more extensively are strenuous or difficult to to manage.

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That makes it very difficult for them to actually address that issue.

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But that doesn't go without attempts to make gains.

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So one of the main lines that we see asserted by official Muslim institutions is the line of the assertion of reports.

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So what extensively we find, I mean aggressive assertions of authority and progressive assertions that Muslims cannot.

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Offer a direct interpretation of Islamic law on their own. They need to go to a qualified scholar in order to do that.

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As a matter of fact, I think I've in a personal interview with one prominent Muslim jurists in the past.

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He made the claim that none other than Muslim jurists should read the texts and attempt to interpret them on their own.

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But they should actually go to the scholars to offer that interpretation.

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I mean, I see I'm running a little bit out of time. I'll try to come back to some of those issues to end the questions and answers,

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but to to a great extent, if we look at the trajectory we see that with.

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Independent mainstream scholars, there's more inclination to deal with and problematic as those issues.

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So with Upadhyay, for example, we see a more concerted effort to deal with the question of fear with the question of the place of Muslim

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regimes and subjects of Muslim regimes in the Muslim world to arrive at a conclusion very similar to another.

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But with perhaps a more rigorous interpretation.

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But again, we also see the line of of all sorts.

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We also saw, for example, if we I mean, on a separate issue on the question of suicide bombing, today,

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we reserves the space for the Muslim scholar, for the Muslim jurists to determine when and where is the resort to suicide bombing legitimate?

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By associating,

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by utilising the tool of Muslim and the toll of Moslehi becomes a tool to also grant the jurist that kind of authority of of interpretation.

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On the other end of the spectrum, we see militants who are not who,

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I argue are not again who have not escaped the predicament and the dilemma of the

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modern nation state and how to deal with their place in the modern nation state.

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With alucarda, we see some expansion, extensive expansion of some of the categories relating to targeting,

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for example, and we see the same selectivity.

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So for example, when it comes to targeting, we see an expansion of indiscriminate targeting beyond the regime of deterrence

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and beyond what what is envisioned by scholars under the regime of Tartarus.

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And we also see attempts to connect what is not, not necessarily connected.

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For example, Zawahiri argues that weapons of mass destruction are attempting to own or utilise weapons of mass

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destruction can be compared to indiscriminate targeting by tools such as hurling machines and so on.

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This regarding the fact that classical jurists have actually acknowledged some

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level of discrimination and those weapons by giving direction to the Muslim Army,

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to Earth to attempt to avoid harm that is likely to be inflicted in those situations is hardly imaginable.

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In a situation where used to weapons of mass destruction, who are, by their nature,

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indiscriminate and a much more expansive fashion than those weapons.

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And the weakest point or the weakest link that we see in a al-Zawahiri's jurisprudence is again,

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in no way the utilisation of the logic of the modern nation state to argue for the denial of the regime of women.

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So the regime of women is a regime that is arguably a very individualised system under classical Islamic jurisprudence.

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Anyone could could grant them not just the state, not just the the caliph would grant them and anyone could.

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Of course, the Caliph could revoke that women. But but it's a it's a much more fluid system than we see in the modern nation state.

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But he utilises the authority of the modern nation state and the logic of the modern nation state to to deny the possibility of individual amend,

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thereby again employing the same methods of selectivity that we see associated with mainstream scholars.

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And the other end of the spectrum, we see a new animal, which is the Islamic State and its approach to Islamic jurisprudence.

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Arguably, I mean, even the rigour of analysis is as much weaker in comparison to al-Zawahiri's work.

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For example, the resort to jurisprudence is much weaker, but we see an expansion and extensive expansion of the notion of apostasy.

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To include Muslims who live under so-called apostate regimes by relying on scholars such as Eden Hazard and Tamir,

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despite the fact that that those same scholars have in some instances acknowledged that Muslims who

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live under regimes was whose adherence to Islamic law may be seen as subjects such as Egyptians.

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In the case of or the margin, the very famous Martin fatwa issued by the Premier that led us to a very different conclusion,

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thereby collapsing all categories and denying and their opposition of any tool of challenge to Islamic law.

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And on the other hand, we also see the same resort to the denial of protections of the Shia by expanding the interpretations of apostasy of the Shia.

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But most importantly, by denying the applicability of regimes that are so entrenched in Islamic law and namely the regime of Jesus.

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So we see the assertion that Christians in Egypt may be targeted simply because they live under a regime that is not Islamic,

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which is very odd because it goes against the rationale of a man, at least not even GZA,

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or the mean that just because they have been granted a semblance of a safety pact and more importantly,

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because at the end of the day with the classical doctrine, then masterpiece is offered.

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And once it's offered, there are regulations for how you it?

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And there are regulations for how, how they provide for it, and that is completely silenced in the debate that we see associated with ISIS.

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I'm going to come back to that, perhaps. The discussion important to take more time, but the the general gist of that analysis is that this plot,

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whether or not we're dealing with groups who deny the existence of the modern nation

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state or groups or entities that are entrenched within the modern nation state,

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there's no escaping it. There is no escaping its impact on how we understand Islamic laws of war today and

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how that understanding is so entrenched in our logic of how to deal with militancy.

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Thank you so much for three nights. This is an incredibly impressive piece of 20 minutes.

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I mean, this is so much packed into this and you brought so many fascinating voices into the conversation

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and so much analytical nuance to reflecting on how the Muslim nation state has an impact on this.

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The way in which sort of scholars are ostensibly completely different stripes actually coming to

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Islamic law or to the classical tradition in similar ways because of what modernity has wrought.

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I'm sure this will elicit a lot of discussion on the process attendees, and please feel free to type in your questions at this stage.

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We're going to take the questions after Miraz session,

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but right now I'm going to switch over to one of the trees and Marathi trees is a associate professor of

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political science at the University of Michigan with his doctoral degree from the University of Pennsylvania.

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And he has a wide range of interests in political theory and the history of political thought, including in war and peace.

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Critical theory, conceptual history, anti-colonial and postcolonial thought.

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Political theology, internet like you basically are interested in everything pertaining to Islamic politics,

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and I think this is reflected, of course, in your writing as well. So your book again,

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relatively recent book came out in 2019 was entitled Was War and War for Peace Genealogies of Abundant Ideas in Western and Islamic Thought,

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and you have other work that you're working on right now.

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I think you have another book planned, which currently is tentatively titled Out of History, Genealogies and Language, Time and Violence.

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So I look forward to that as well. But you'll be talking about theorising colonialism, capitalism and violence and an Islamist key.

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So let me hand it over to you for the next 20 minutes. Thank you.

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Thank you. Faisal, thank you. Summer for the invitation.

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I'm excited to be here sharing a mix of recent and new work with you, and I'm excited to be in conversation with you.

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Well, I'll be focussing on excavating some unusual themes from say it perturbs writings,

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say it is known as the main theorist of 20th century Islamism and is often considered

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to have been the intellectual backbone of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s.

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Today, he's mostly red for his prison writings, which are considered far more radical.

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I'll refer to some lesser known works from the early 1950s, including articles published in the journals Dawa and Reseda,

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his neglected peace plan for the formation of an Islamic Federation.

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And his diagnoses of capitalism, colonialism, Orientalism and race as interlocking in a formation of violence.

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I'll also work in some remarks about the journal Dawa.

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I'm currently trying to work through a few thousand pages of the journal, which was published over the course of four years,

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and this is all part of a project on theorising of violence, colonialism and capitalism by Islamists in the 1950s.

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So I'm promising a lot, so let's jump right in.

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I'll frame my comments with four premises at first premise, and this should not be controversial.

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Muslims and Islamists are theorists of violence, and I mean this in two ways.

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On the one hand, Islamists aren't simply occasional agents of violence.

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They theorise their own violence and to treat this as theory rather than, for example,

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mere propaganda is to understand is to understand it as an intervention into an ongoing set of debates, ideas and practises.

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On the other hand, Islamists also theorise the already pre-existing and prevalent structures of violence,

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and certainly in the 1950s, they understood these two to be intimately linked.

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Though I'm focussing today on the analysis of the latter, the pre-existing structures of violence there genealogies their idioms and their connexions.

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Second, put up theories of violence, have numerous underappreciated resonances and linkages across the history of political thought,

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including in the writings of KÖNNTE, the Phenom, Edward Saeed and others.

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These linkages are, I believe, entirely incidental,

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but drawing attention to them can help us diagnose the politics of contemporary disciplinary formations

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or why we read certain thinkers in certain ways alongside some thinkers and not others for some themes,

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but not others.

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Third, recovering this cross-section of Islamist thought on violence brings into view authorisations of how violence is linked with colonialism,

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capitalism and Orientalism. So it moves us away from constructions of Islamic thought in terms of fanaticism and ideology.

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And it forces us to reckon with a different radical thread that is palpable in these archives,

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one that treats fanaticism actually as a colonial discourse and then diagnoses its inner workings.

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It helps us exceptionalism, the thematics that are assigned to particular bodies of knowledge.

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So it's against what we might call the contemporary choreography of critique.

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Finally, in tension with much of what I've said,

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situating put up within a broader sphere of Islamist intellectual production in the 1950s shows an entire discursive structure.

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Many writers, many publications that were reflecting precisely on these very terms,

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although theorists and historians of Islamism tend to focus on individual thinkers and their books, and I include myself in this.

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Looking at the social, political and institutional life of journals was a way towards a different and I think, exciting model of giving theory.

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So let me offer a few example, a few examples of these premises juxtapositions and provocations.

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First Federation Auto and cut.

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And this one will be brief. One of the chapters of my book, which some I mentioned War for peace.

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I read in relation to cut specifically how each constructs a federation that begins with domestic legal reform,

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then a federation of these states banding together and then how they police the globe against enemies

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of peace instead of consider of colonial powers policing each other and their former colonies.

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Put up solution is for the colonised Muslims to police the coloniser and the entire globe.

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The only thing I'll add here is about how to stop and can't critically diagnose

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how appeals to peace have operated as covers for violence and then unironically,

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each offers a three part peace plan that, in the name of peace, authorises a particular form of exceptional violence.

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So these formations reflect and re entrench hierarchies within humanity.

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I'll leave cons here. For now, we can pick them up later if there's interest to war and empire or put up with Dubois.

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In his book on Universal Peace,

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Otto observes that the American intervention in Korea reveals the violent colonial truths of a self-styled democratic bloc.

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Interestingly, although political theorists today don't really say much about the Korean War.

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Dubois, too, situated this war as putting on full display an American war industry and in fact both put up and the boys.

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They draw attention to the institutions of colonial peace and how they enable particular kinds of war ones that

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oftentimes don't go by the name of war for both the prevailing colonial capitalist and racialised peace facilitates war,

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violence and subjugation across the globe and both imagined and anti-colonial federation.

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Although, bro, the war drums are beating. There it is, a prospect knocking on the ears of the wretched of humanity.

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I heard it before in America, even before the onset of the Korean War.

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Everyone who's lived in America during the last two years clearly has understood that America will wage war, and he goes on.

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Anyone who has followed American journalism and its other media apparatus through radio, cinema, universities,

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colleges clearly understood that this is a nation preparing to wage war and it is packing public opinion with this idea and the war is coming,

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he says, because the heads of American capital are in dire need of a new war.

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They generally have engaged in massacres no matter how much their propaganda waves around the names of ethical principles and humanitarian goals.

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And his primary examples are Korea and Palestine, a sort of exemplifying colonial hypocrisy.

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His 1953 essay, Principles of the Free World two observes that the name the Free World is a cover for colonialism in Tunis,

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Marrakesh, Kenya, Vietnam, the free world. The rips apart the skin freedom and strangles free people everywhere.

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So this view of colonial discourse rhetoric and misrepresentation as tactics across the globe.

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It produces a geography in which North Africa and the Near East, Eastern Europe and East Asia,

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Africa and Southeast Asia are all bound together, sharing the same fates and the same problems.

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Whereas attention to his federation would trace a geography that maps onto the Muslim world whereby it polices the globe against injustice.

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This diagnostic geography puts Muslims and non-Muslims into the same colonial presence and attention to either, I think,

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helps us to unsaleable Islamism to locate authorisations of colonialism and enter colonialism as internal to and as overlapping with Islamist thought.

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Three. Capitalism consciousness or fennel with put up put up theorises capitalism, I was surprised to witness.

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We already saw him linking capitalism to war. But he also links it to the colonial management of culture and consciousness.

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And on top of all that, he uses the language of critical political economy to make a number of his arguments.

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So oftentimes these kinds of borrowings are read in terms of the sneaky Islamists trying to co-opt the language of his opponents.

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And maybe I think they can also be read generative fully as reflecting the success of Marxism and educating its potential opponents.

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And although I'm not going to make much reference to it today,

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there's an entire issue in a dogma that is an analysis of capitalism, class and property, and it draws heavily on Marxist idioms.

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So there are both phenomena, finale and Marxist resonances here.

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In his book The Battle of Islam and Capitalism, he explains that the English always knew that their armies would have to leave Egypt someday,

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and so they ensured Egypt's dependence on them.

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He offers a version of dependency theory,

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asserting that one of the central pillars of colonial control is to make the colony economically dependent on the metropole.

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So says the English established colonialism, institutional supports and the economic field by occupying Egyptian markets and

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by attempting to close off other international markets to Egyptian products.

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And all this. He says, however, would not be enough for colonialism to persist if not for the colonisation of consciousness and intellect,

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which colonialism has attended to over the last century.

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The white English have vacated governmental offices in order for the dark English to take their place,

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whose consciousness and intellect are colonised, assembled according to colonialism and its objectives.

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So having shaped the Ministry of Education, he says the white English can now be confident that the dark English will continue their mission.

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Colonialism, in other words, conscripts those who exalt freedom and culture and those who oversee education in its battles against Islam.

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Whether they realise it or not, they produce curricula on Islamic studies that simply catalogue military assaults, wars, incidents, events.

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And he says that the upshot is that Islam was a large military battle and that it had never been an intellectual,

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social or humanitarian battle as well.

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The narration of Islam as a sequence of violence and events is one strand of Orientalism, which is something I'll speak to in a few minutes.

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Iotop does not name it, and he doesn't connect it with the rest of his observations.

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But he does claim that colonial education culminates in colonialism without colonists.

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So for the colonisation of consciousness and intellect to reach its high point even after the departure of the occupation.

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So all non-white peoples, he says, are taught to measure themselves in relation to the white man and his history.

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To denigrate their own histories, people in America talk about the white man as though they are talking about a half God and people of colour,

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like Egyptians and Arabs generally, as though they are describing a half human totems.

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Framing of historical narratives and world politics in terms of race consciousness

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and a racial war took place immediately after his visit to the United States.

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And the key point here is that Potter was interested in colonial consciousness, especially cultural and educational institutions,

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newspapers, books, histories, all of which narrated the glories of France, Britain and America and degraded and humiliated others, he said.

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So this includes American Empire, which he mocked as trying to create an Americanised Islam, its own brand of Islam,

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one that was de politicised and that marked all other forms of Islam as dangerous and illegitimate.

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And this is why I put up calls for destroying the colonialism in our consciousness towards a new pedagogy.

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With this pedagogy, all people, particularly new generations,

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should be educated about colonialism, injustices and the injustices committed by the white man.

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Whereas Potter gives much of the Senate, much of this account in an article titled Our Number One Enemy, The White Man.

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Interestingly, this is the lesson that the front page of Dawar gave on March 30th, 1951,

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in an article by the editor titled Colonialism is our number one enemy and that article said the Colonial.

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Azam operates in the same exact way as disbelief that no matter who is colonised and who, it divides people and it divides their consciousness.

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If Muslims wish for freedom, the article said,

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then they have to resist colonialism and they can do this by revealing all of its actions and all of its misdeeds.

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Then it ends optimistically. After that, we shall went back to club and capitalism.

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In addition to dependency, auto refers to the alliance between a dictatorship and the despotism or autocracy of capital.

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So, he says, colonialism is always concerned that the masses should not rule themselves because it then becomes difficult to subdue them.

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Thus, there must be a governing dictatorial class that possesses autocratic authority and great wealth.

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This class is the one with which colonialism can have dealings. This is because first, its numbers are few.

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And second, it depends on colonialism to persist and needs its support in the face of the masses.

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This class is in charge of subduing the masses and governing them.

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Colonialism disappears from view behind it.

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Put up the terminology and his class analysis have their provenance and the writings of Marx and Lenin.

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The terms appear with neither citation nor explanation, but at the very least,

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they show us the adaptation of the critique of capitalism into an Islamist state.

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For Orientalism or before said, the two penultimate chapters of the Battle of Islam and Capitalism form an ark.

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Now the first one is doubts about the rule of Islam and enumerates various caricatures of Islam,

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whereas the second is enmities towards the rule of Islam, and it describes different enemies, different antagonisms.

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The six doubts are Islam's primitivism the authority of chef's tyranny.

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The vagueness of scripture. Haram and the oppression of minorities.

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But the selection is important today because these six reflect the definition of Islam as the antithesis of modernity,

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liberalism, freedom and civilisation. So the idea that Islam tries to return to the 7th century to tents in the desert casts it not simply as lagging,

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not simply as obsolete, but as a destructive refusal of modernity.

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And he says, you know, people imagine Islamic governance to mean tents in the desert, Bedouins on camels, Arabs in caves in which there would be.

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And here he really seems to be channelling Thomas Hunt.

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So I'm pretty sure he not never read that there would be no building, no civilisation, no sciences and no arts and no poetry.

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He criticises these doubts as generalisations, misrepresentations, projections,

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ones that limit Islam's temporal resolution and merely reflect the kinds of negative models that the capitalist

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and communist blocs have permitted to appear in the world in order to repel people from a more critical view.

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The repertoire of doubts is also important because it inserts put up through his responses into the lineage of critiques of Orientalism.

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The repertoire of tropes, after all, has an Orientalist pedigree and as he says, they serve the Orientalist discourses and interests.

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So his critique here is about how representations and stereotypes masquerade as knowledge.

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And he then describes six enemies of Islam. These are the crusaders, colonists, exploiters, professional men of religion, the immoral and communists.

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Some of these enemies rely on Orientalism. So as it turns out, the crusaders supply the spirit of the colonisers,

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and the exploiters and men of religion rely on the colonisers understanding of Islam.

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So the coloniser and the Orientalist are tightly linked.

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So much so that Potter says the notion of Orientalist objectivity or neutrality functions as a mask.

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It justifies colonialism and aims to transform the colonised population's consciousness so that they internalise.

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It sends its comprehensive studies, he says, aimed to neutralise the seeds of resistance.

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So, he writes,

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Orientalism was established in order to aid colonialism from a scientific point of view in order to extend its roots into the intellectual soil.

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But we hear we worship Orientalist simple mindedly. If it occurs to you to adopt the innocence of these saints, then your uncultured.

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You're a fanatic who brings in religion at every opportunity.

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Also recall my earlier point about which histories are narrated and how self-important

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this is all ideologically bound up with Orientalist and racial colonial structures.

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Let me end by highlighting a couple of things.

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First, about discussions of education curricula, doubts and consciousness, referred to the production of knowledge about Islam.

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So in an untimely moment put of 30 years before Said's Orientalism, 12 years before Anwar Abdel Malik's,

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Orientalism and crisis would be theorising Orientalism its complicity,

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its complicity in the colonial project and the fantasies that it sets into motion and rationalises for European authors and policymakers,

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as well as for colonised Muslim intellectuals. This is not to simply say that the anti-colonial critique of Orientalism predates Sayed

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and that various Arab and non-Arab intellectuals should be inserted into its history,

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which is, of course, true. It is, however, and may be somewhat irreverent.

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Tree, a reference to the to put autumn's writings on knowledge production as internal to the genealogy of theorising Orientalism.

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So it's to trace a question around which thinkers and texts have permission to speak about which topics,

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or to borrow a different phrase of Edwards seeds,

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which have the permission to narrate a critique of Orientalism capitalism and their structures, or to even be in a genealogy of critique.

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It's to ask who's authorised to theorise about what kinds of topics or what I earlier referred to as the choreography of critique.

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Second, bottoms discussions contain a composite of analytics from colonialism, misrepresentations and denials of violence across the globe.

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It's the structures of dispossession and a class analysis derived from Marxism to the political theology that underlies secularised.

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anti-Islamic colonialism and knowledge is all in these overlapping frames.

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The composite analytics draw in multiple regions across the colonised world into the same fate,

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one enabled by complementary structures of dispossession.

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Third, although I've only gestured to them situated in relation to various journals like Adama, can help us shift where relocate theory,

385
00:44:58,690 --> 00:45:04,750
where we locate authorisations of violence and how we locate Islamist thought in relation to it.

386
00:45:04,750 --> 00:45:10,600
It is to De Exceptionalist, the Muslim thinker, twice in terms of which scripts,

387
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:20,530
themes and connexions can come into view and in terms of the intellectuals embeddedness and a broader network of discourse.

388
00:45:20,530 --> 00:45:24,880
Since I believe I have another two minutes or so.

389
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:34,030
Let me give you one last example dowa in 1951, put up calls French barbarism the greatest threat to the Muslim world and this,

390
00:45:34,030 --> 00:45:40,940
he says, is the same France that buckled its knees when Hitler sneezed.

391
00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:46,220
The juxtaposition interrupts the European discourses of the barbarism of Nazi ism and

392
00:45:46,220 --> 00:45:50,990
the barbarism of the colonised to draw out the barbarism of the European colonisers.

393
00:45:50,990 --> 00:45:58,820
So he says that France continues to send its tanks, artillery and its fighter jets against Marrakesh.

394
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:04,040
He then offers an inventory of French atrocities with dates and places 1789,

395
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:12,090
Egypt 1925 and nineteen forty one Damascus 1812 1941 1944 in 1951, Marrakesh 1830.

396
00:46:12,090 --> 00:46:23,150
In 1945, Algeria 41 villages decimated and he lists other massacres across North Africa with the same dynamics,

397
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:31,040
saying that the same dynamics also described British attacks on Egypt and Italian attacks on present day Libya.

398
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:39,500
He contrasts these atrocities with love for France, which he calls using religious terminology.

399
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:45,170
Worship, murder and its admirers are friends of slaves, added.

400
00:46:45,170 --> 00:46:53,750
And what they do is glorifying yourself beyond the institutional mechanisms that enable this worship are French institutes and Egypt.

401
00:46:53,750 --> 00:47:00,050
These are sites of indoctrination or re-education ones that mask barbarism and instil awe.

402
00:47:00,050 --> 00:47:04,970
And this is why France, he says, opposes having an Egyptian institute in Tangier.

403
00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:13,970
This would foster an anti-colonial orientation one facilitated by the feeling of a shared Muslim heritage, which in turn facilitates Muslim unity.

404
00:47:13,970 --> 00:47:16,070
So this mixing of theological,

405
00:47:16,070 --> 00:47:26,180
geopolitical and institutional registers marks a violence that works through the production of a cultural institutional apparatus.

406
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:35,600
Its stages, the problem of anti-colonial consciousness and colonial violence into a direct confrontation of pedagogy.

407
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,730
Thank you, and I look forward to our conversation. Thank you very much, Mara.

408
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:52,250
I'm really I think these papers work wonderfully with each other, and both of them are in their own ways, you know, wonderfully evocative.

409
00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:59,810
While we're waiting for people in the audience to write in their questions or raise their hands, I know some also has some.

410
00:47:59,810 --> 00:48:09,000
Let me begin with a couple of my own, if I may, Mr. Green, as he was speaking, I just thought how?

411
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,440
How well the responses.

412
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:26,770
Of Muslim authorities that you describe parallel the responses of many Western governments facing the same, if you will, threat.

413
00:48:26,770 --> 00:48:35,550
And what struck me in particular is the focus initially when you're speaking about Al Qaida on the.

414
00:48:35,550 --> 00:48:41,400
The law dealing with Highwomen and banditry as opposed to rebellion.

415
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:49,590
And of course, this is it reminded me so much of the resort to piracy in the European legal order and therefore the

416
00:48:49,590 --> 00:48:57,450
exceptional ization of the militant outside everything that is regular and outside rights altogether.

417
00:48:57,450 --> 00:49:03,930
That's one thing. And the other thing, of course, has to do with the anxiety of authority or the reassertion of the authority,

418
00:49:03,930 --> 00:49:13,230
which you also find perhaps not so much vis-a-vis AL or ISIS's form of militancy,

419
00:49:13,230 --> 00:49:22,530
but more generally in contemporary discussions of law and legality in North America and Western Europe,

420
00:49:22,530 --> 00:49:32,460
where it's precisely the nature of a legitimate authority and where it is to be located, but is in question.

421
00:49:32,460 --> 00:49:39,550
So these are not the same things or one of them might be the same and not the other, but I just wondered if you might have any.

422
00:49:39,550 --> 00:49:50,500
Words on how you think the two go together structurally beyond the specific political and intellectual context that that your talk addressed.

423
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:56,320
Thank you. So those are very interesting questions on the first point.

424
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,600
Of course, exceptionalism is is the name of the game.

425
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:07,390
When it comes to law, it's always easier to argue for an exception than it is to reformulate the rule.

426
00:50:07,390 --> 00:50:17,650
And as a matter of fact, the dealing with al-Qaida is as prominent in the assertion of a very well known exception in international humanitarian law,

427
00:50:17,650 --> 00:50:25,750
which is the category of the unlawful combatant and the claims about unlawful combatants, i.e. the terror advocated by the United States,

428
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:36,190
arguing that al-Qaida fighters are neither combatants who deserve prisoners of war status nor there, nor are they civilians,

429
00:50:36,190 --> 00:50:43,550
and therefore they belong to a category that enjoys enjoys neither of the privileges that we see associated with either.

430
00:50:43,550 --> 00:50:49,570
So that is in no way unique to legal argumentation.

431
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:56,050
And as a matter of fact, also, I mean, one interesting thing that you mentioned when it comes to police,

432
00:50:56,050 --> 00:51:01,000
I mean, going in tandem with Western governments arguments is that to some extent,

433
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,360
as a matter of fact, going in tandem with those arguments and I mean, ironically, so there's I mean,

434
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,300
there's a fixation on proving that Islamic law is as humane as international humanitarian law is.

435
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:15,400
This is this is very clear.

436
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:25,690
But in doing that, there's very little disregard to how international humanitarian law challenges and legitimate violence and its own ways.

437
00:51:25,690 --> 00:51:30,520
And as we've seen in critical scholarship examining international humanitarian law extensively.

438
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:38,980
But you also suppress areas. Even if we if we take that assumption that there is a possibility that you limit violence and you regulate violence,

439
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:45,100
it suppresses your claim to an even more protective regime that exists within the Islamic legal tradition,

440
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:51,790
which is the regime of birth, which offers protections that definitely surpass international humanitarian laws.

441
00:51:51,790 --> 00:51:56,710
Protections of non-international armed conflicts. Of course, there are so many.

442
00:51:56,710 --> 00:52:03,700
I mean, I don't want to be reproducing the are the functional comparison between international humanitarian law and Islamic law,

443
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:12,340
because it's a function of this comparison that I critique and that I believe is has an assumption of a set of values embedded in it.

444
00:52:12,340 --> 00:52:21,220
But you have here a regime that allows you to offer more protections, but that it's completely suppressed,

445
00:52:21,220 --> 00:52:26,350
partly because it does not fit within the current order of governance and partly

446
00:52:26,350 --> 00:52:30,970
because it doesn't really have a resonance in an international military and law.

447
00:52:30,970 --> 00:52:37,090
And this is related to another argument that I make some else about how to compare the disciplines.

448
00:52:37,090 --> 00:52:44,950
So generally speaking, the comparison of the disciplines now is done through a function of silence and the assumption

449
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:50,310
of values is taken and borrowed from the international humanitarian law tradition.

450
00:52:50,310 --> 00:52:54,850
Whereas there is potentially an alternative way of looking at the disciplines

451
00:52:54,850 --> 00:52:59,620
whereby they actually guide us towards the blind spots that we see in each system.

452
00:52:59,620 --> 00:53:06,400
So rather than espousing an understanding of what law, how law should deal with violence.

453
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,510
You look at how those two disciplines regulate differently. It's a matter of fact.

454
00:53:10,510 --> 00:53:12,280
In this particular instance,

455
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:20,920
using the regime of rebellion can guide us to the what Berman refers to as the status and the governmental bias in international humanitarian law,

456
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:26,380
and provide the space for an alternative understanding of how we deal with violence.

457
00:53:26,380 --> 00:53:31,210
Of course, there are some issues that you can see also and in looking at Islamic law,

458
00:53:31,210 --> 00:53:38,320
but that's but there's no side to that end of the analysis of international humanitarian law.

459
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:43,730
But at the end of the day, coming back to your point, yes, exceptionalism is.

460
00:53:43,730 --> 00:53:49,700
Is, I mean, that's the that's the bread and butter of lawyers to.

461
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:56,870
To a great extent and has been offered, but argued by many the pretty good works,

462
00:53:56,870 --> 00:54:02,710
it's actually what tells us about much more than what the what the rule tells us about about law.

463
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:04,910
So can you remind me of the second point?

464
00:54:04,910 --> 00:54:12,170
Second, that to do with the you know what you say about the anxiety authority and reasserting authority in as it were,

465
00:54:12,170 --> 00:54:14,420
if you will, anti-democratic way. So you know,

466
00:54:14,420 --> 00:54:22,610
they are forced on the back foot the words that you're talking about because they have to reclaim authority from its fragmentation and dispersal.

467
00:54:22,610 --> 00:54:28,790
And that also, of course, seems to be a common trope in contemporary Western European and North American

468
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:34,580
understandings of the vulnerability of of expert expertise and authority.

469
00:54:34,580 --> 00:54:40,910
Yes, I mean, of course, we see that everywhere and we see it with, I mean, we see it in different contexts.

470
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:49,280
But I do believe that there are particular features that that makes that makes the situation difficult for Muslim jurists.

471
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:55,370
First of all, this is a tradition that has thrived on diversity,

472
00:54:55,370 --> 00:55:02,960
that has thrived on multiplicity and because it has thrived on diversity and multiplicity.

473
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,410
It has always appreciated distance from the political sorts.

474
00:55:06,410 --> 00:55:14,570
It has always perceived of the distance from the particular authority as a litmus test for legitimacy.

475
00:55:14,570 --> 00:55:20,660
So for Muslim jurists in the present, where I mean political order,

476
00:55:20,660 --> 00:55:27,350
it's very difficult to navigate that terrain because on the one hand, you want to assert your legitimacy you want.

477
00:55:27,350 --> 00:55:31,280
But that that is difficult to do considering if, for example,

478
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:41,090
we look at the case of Egypt legal measures that have developed over the years to bring institutions under the authority of of the modern state.

479
00:55:41,090 --> 00:55:44,330
So the more they're associated with the state,

480
00:55:44,330 --> 00:55:52,940
the more that erodes their legitimacy and the more that opens up the space for other voices that come and undercut them.

481
00:55:52,940 --> 00:56:01,370
I don't want to argue that there's no place for authority in Islamic law, because that would be a very erroneous reading of Islamic law.

482
00:56:01,370 --> 00:56:11,840
Yes, it's a diverse tradition, but it's a tradition that has also had its ways of vetting and offering respect and wait for authority.

483
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:21,830
So in a way that concern that we see voiced by many Azeri scholars and perhaps also independent scholars is a legitimate concern.

484
00:56:21,830 --> 00:56:28,790
But it's a concern that is very difficult for them to achieve considering the space that they're trying to carve out.

485
00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:36,280
For example, Ahmed A-type had extent had continued to assert that he cannot.

486
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:41,680
Offer a position that deems ICIS apostates.

487
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:48,960
For a very legitimate and sound reason, whether in terms of expedience or in terms of jurisprudence,

488
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:56,820
because at the very basic level in terms of experience, I cannot criticise them for engaging in fear and then I engage myself.

489
00:56:56,820 --> 00:57:01,140
I'm disarming myself of a of that very important to it.

490
00:57:01,140 --> 00:57:11,400
But he'd come under very heavy criticism from media that is associated with political actors for failing to do that.

491
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:18,090
So there's always a press, there's always a pressure to pull you back in again.

492
00:57:18,090 --> 00:57:24,000
And in a way that is that is probably part of the legitimacy crisis.

493
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:31,770
When you see, I mean, as Harry scholars writing on socialism as the way of Islam and then moving away towards writing

494
00:57:31,770 --> 00:57:38,790
towards and how free market is the spirit of Islam and then writings on political and I mean,

495
00:57:38,790 --> 00:57:42,360
on the taboo issues, I mean, political rebellions and so on and so forth.

496
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:49,190
And the particular line that extensively creates the space for you to lose.

497
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:52,620
That's I mean that navigating power. Well, thanks.

498
00:57:52,620 --> 00:57:59,910
That's really absolutely fascinating. And you know, I'm sure we could speak about it at length and I'm sure we'll return to this.

499
00:57:59,910 --> 00:58:08,760
I have one question for Murad, and then I will turn to you, Osama, and ask those in our audience to raise their hands or write in their questions.

500
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:15,420
So, Murad, you know, as you were speaking, I thought, you have in a way two trajectories.

501
00:58:15,420 --> 00:58:24,330
And one, of course, is the one that has to do with colonialism and Orientalism, in which you could arguably put Sokoto in a genealogy ending.

502
00:58:24,330 --> 00:58:31,950
And today's the colonial colonial movement, let's say. And I completely understand that.

503
00:58:31,950 --> 00:58:42,640
But the other one I'm more interested in, which is the figure of Sokoto and perhaps other Islamists as.

504
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:48,070
Standing for expressing a critique of the post-colonial state itself.

505
00:58:48,070 --> 00:58:58,720
So now, obviously, he puts that within a context in which colonialism or neo colonial colonialism is crucial.

506
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:04,930
And he was also operating in a Cold War context where the ideological state as some kind of.

507
00:59:04,930 --> 00:59:14,140
Given, let's say or necessity to think about, but if we were to set those factors aside for the moment,

508
00:59:14,140 --> 00:59:17,270
you know what strikes me as being wonderfully original,

509
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:24,590
not only about him but about other Islamists in this period model, the of course, comes to mind immediately.

510
00:59:24,590 --> 00:59:34,310
Is that they represent. Well, before just as the case, you were making the case with, you know, Orientalism of our letter, you know,

511
00:59:34,310 --> 00:59:45,380
here you have the, you know, if you will, the the move against the post-colonial state before its time almost.

512
00:59:45,380 --> 00:59:50,120
And if we strip it off its its various kind of shootings,

513
00:59:50,120 --> 01:00:03,300
you see that being as being so extraordinarily productive moment because it escapes the usual conventional genealogies in which we set Islamism.

514
01:00:03,300 --> 01:00:09,440
And I wonder if you might have something to say on that particular trajectory of your talk.

515
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:16,550
Yes, that actually illuminates it in a really generative and helpful way.

516
01:00:16,550 --> 01:00:21,290
So thank you. Yes, I think that I too.

517
01:00:21,290 --> 01:00:28,850
I think I'm much more interested in that second trajectory. The first is sort of a ha kind of a replacement or displacement,

518
01:00:28,850 --> 01:00:38,840
whereas the second really is about shifting the stakes of how we read these thinkers and why we read them.

519
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:44,810
And you're entirely, I think, right? The G would be another person to read precisely in this fashion.

520
01:00:44,810 --> 01:00:53,900
And the the thing that I find really fascinating about how lot of these articles rather than in the books or that rather than in the later books,

521
01:00:53,900 --> 01:01:04,100
in these articles and in these shorter books that say what I find really fascinating about his analysis is how it really hones in on particular

522
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:17,000
institutions and in the process of honing in on like this ministry or these cultural centres or this particular way of understanding the Treasury.

523
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:25,190
There's there's almost a no unmasking, perhaps of the state.

524
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:34,490
There's almost so I'm thinking here of this brilliant article by Timothy Mitchell and what was it, 1991 or 1990?

525
01:01:34,490 --> 01:01:44,000
The state effect that basically asks us to look at the institutions at the overall configuration of civil society,

526
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,870
rather than to take the state as something that is given or something that is pre-existing.

527
01:01:47,870 --> 01:01:54,110
And that's the discourse that up and all of these other Islamists are operating with from the get go.

528
01:01:54,110 --> 01:02:04,190
There's something really fascinating about how what, what he what he does in, on the one hand,

529
01:02:04,190 --> 01:02:12,200
naming particular institutions rather than the state and on the other hand,

530
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:21,560
always locating those institutions as sites of the both domestic but also global battles.

531
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:28,970
That is, help us think about the most nodes or perhaps as vectors within a larger kind of view.

532
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:36,830
So what I find quite fascinating is how he seems to maybe inadvertently, I don't really know zoom in, zoom out,

533
01:02:36,830 --> 01:02:45,590
zoom in, zoom out and give us these other views that make clear that what is at stake are institutions,

534
01:02:45,590 --> 01:02:51,860
that the state itself is always composed of questions of institutions, of pedagogy,

535
01:02:51,860 --> 01:03:04,310
of relations within the state and of relations between what these institutions enable regionally, locally, globally.

536
01:03:04,310 --> 01:03:13,670
And I think thinking about it as a historical institutionalist is perhaps now that perhaps the way to go really.

537
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:19,220
Thanks very much. I mean, obviously, the critique of nationalism becomes part of that and critique,

538
01:03:19,220 --> 01:03:23,690
that's neither a liberal critique of the post-colonial state, Cold War, liberal critique nor, of course,

539
01:03:23,690 --> 01:03:33,170
a Marxist critique of the nations of the post-colonial state as a kind of further step in the constitution of a colonial bourgeoisie.

540
01:03:33,170 --> 01:03:37,760
So, yeah, it opens up all kinds of questions. But Oussama, can I turn to you?

541
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,390
I mean, I've just been fascinated by the preceding discussion for both of you.

542
01:03:41,390 --> 01:03:46,440
And I mean, I've had conversations with Helmut after the intro.

543
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:55,340
You've been sort of part of this vessel as well. I mean, the idea of looking at some like do the as this opportunity to reassess Western

544
01:03:55,340 --> 01:04:00,020
political theory and what you're doing is precisely the same thing as West Virginia,

545
01:04:00,020 --> 01:04:02,630
which is also very interesting.

546
01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:13,310
And that's something I've personally been interested in, but I'm not trained quite so systematically within the western saturations theory literature,

547
01:04:13,310 --> 01:04:19,040
but I think that these people represent an interesting coalescing of ideas.

548
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,310
I mean, when you're talking about Islamism more generally as well,

549
01:04:22,310 --> 01:04:30,710
not just looking at up to a type of international relations theory that needs to be more thickly described, more thoroughly articulated.

550
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:41,870
And I look forward to reading your work more closely as I also hope to read the original ideas in the in the Arabic or in the case of the North,

551
01:04:41,870 --> 01:04:46,340
in some instances, to be able to explore that in greater detail.

552
01:04:46,340 --> 01:04:55,150
I actually had a question that would take me back to the screen a bit and it sort of perhaps is framed.

553
01:04:55,150 --> 01:05:03,740
You know, you spoke about the way in which Muslim scholars were trying to sort of ameliorate

554
01:05:03,740 --> 01:05:10,890
the impression that the Shariah somehow maybe has certain harmful effects.

555
01:05:10,890 --> 01:05:18,140
And the comparator, of course, is sort of international law as a normative standard against which we measure.

556
01:05:18,140 --> 01:05:25,940
And I think you're doing something similar in, in a sense to what we were just discussing with what you're trying to potentially displace

557
01:05:25,940 --> 01:05:30,500
that authority that is granted to the standard narrative of international law and say,

558
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:34,640
Well, why does that need to be the sort of reference point?

559
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:41,600
And for me, what's really striking is some of the story that you said is this was the same time that these scholars are trying to highlight.

560
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:46,730
Well, you know, Islamic law is as humane as international relations,

561
01:05:46,730 --> 01:05:52,250
the international sort of humanitarian law or whatever is the major reference point.

562
01:05:52,250 --> 01:06:00,260
That is the time when enemy combatants or sort of non-whites get unlawful combatants, they coined.

563
01:06:00,260 --> 01:06:01,820
That idea is being generated.

564
01:06:01,820 --> 01:06:09,200
That is at the same time, you know, I forget the name John Yoo, perhaps is writing the torture memos for the Bush administration.

565
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:17,660
And I wonder how those two sort of visions of the role of law.

566
01:06:17,660 --> 01:06:21,680
Why are they heading in such divergent pathways?

567
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:27,080
You know, some of that answer might be somewhat obvious, but I'd love to hear your insights specifically.

568
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:35,540
Why is it that Muslim scholars are, you know, in this on the back foot trying to say, actually, this tradition isn't as bad as you think?

569
01:06:35,540 --> 01:06:40,400
And these types of the here are trying to say, OK, what can we do this?

570
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:49,430
This tradition needs to be instrumentalized to allow for the most what in the popular imagination is really heinous behaviour.

571
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:54,010
So what can we do about that and what motivates those very different trajectories?

572
01:06:54,010 --> 01:06:58,640
And just thinking about your comments on that? Thank you. Thank you, Sam.

573
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:09,230
That said, that's a very interesting question. I'd like just to direct you to a recent article written by Dina Sollima on that issue,

574
01:07:09,230 --> 01:07:20,300
and she argues that Bush's arguments about the unlawful combatants category can be very much compared to a tired arguments about who may be targeted.

575
01:07:20,300 --> 01:07:29,750
So I mean, I do think I mean, there are some legal nuances that I might agree or disagree with here and there,

576
01:07:29,750 --> 01:07:34,310
but the idea is that we we do not we cannot necessarily read.

577
01:07:34,310 --> 01:07:41,810
The Bush administration is reflective of the international legal tradition as a whole.

578
01:07:41,810 --> 01:07:49,790
At the end of the day, the Bush administration's position was heavily criticised by different you and human rights organisations,

579
01:07:49,790 --> 01:07:57,890
different groups and by the entity that is often seen as the guardian of international humanitarian law, the International Committee of the Red Cross.

580
01:07:57,890 --> 01:08:05,570
So it in a way what was the Bush administration's position might be argued to be an aberration.

581
01:08:05,570 --> 01:08:13,300
I don't think I don't personally think it's an aberration because there is this space in the system that allows for.

582
01:08:13,300 --> 01:08:25,900
Such arguments to be made and the benchmark that is being used here is the benchmark of the the modern modern international humanitarian,

583
01:08:25,900 --> 01:08:32,410
as exemplified by international institutions and international humanitarian organisations.

584
01:08:32,410 --> 01:08:37,030
And sometimes that is a coincidence by an attempt to appeal to that.

585
01:08:37,030 --> 01:08:40,840
I mean, arguably clearly in the very early works,

586
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:49,090
it's an appeal to the prominence of international law and the idea of the prominence of international law that comes after the Second World War.

587
01:08:49,090 --> 01:08:53,920
So it's an attempt to appeal to that discourse.

588
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:59,080
But also, there are more deliberate attempts to reconcile the two that we see in the present.

589
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:03,400
The International Committee of the Red Cross contacts and gets in touch with Muslim

590
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:12,880
scholars to write articles that portray that that emulate introduction to law.

591
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:17,650
For example, one scholar that I've mentioned that I've looked at extensively was right.

592
01:09:17,650 --> 01:09:27,090
He has written an article for the international review of the Red Cross on Islamic Laws of War, so that's not a coincidence.

593
01:09:27,090 --> 01:09:30,790
The Red Cross has an Islamic law expert.

594
01:09:30,790 --> 01:09:38,260
Now, I doubt that they have other experts from other legal traditions, and they conduct trainings on Islamic rules of war.

595
01:09:38,260 --> 01:09:46,300
So there is a deliberate agenda, whether one agrees with it or not, to offer to offer that reconciliation.

596
01:09:46,300 --> 01:09:54,580
It's not always just an attempt to appease to an assumption of a superior set of ideals.

597
01:09:54,580 --> 01:09:58,720
There's also a concerted effort that is going to there.

598
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,380
Just a commentary on the Bush administration is, however,

599
01:10:02,380 --> 01:10:11,260
utilised by Muslim scholars to make to make an argument that's very similar to the argument that Salima it makes.

600
01:10:11,260 --> 01:10:19,390
So I remember in an interview, in an interview with the Typekit that I was conducting for my for my fieldwork,

601
01:10:19,390 --> 01:10:28,120
he when asked about the practises of Okada, he explicitly said not every action in the name of a particular legal order is reflective of that order.

602
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:32,030
Look at how the United States has justified. But if I the invasion of Iraq.

603
01:10:32,030 --> 01:10:34,270
So he didn't choose the unlawful combatants argument,

604
01:10:34,270 --> 01:10:41,230
but he used the use of force arguments and how the US is subverting international law and that this is not indicative of international law.

605
01:10:41,230 --> 01:10:45,760
So it actually creates the space for critique somehow.

606
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:55,060
But it's the ideals have become so entrenched that when you argue for a different understanding of targeting,

607
01:10:55,060 --> 01:11:03,290
this is not just a different legal interpretation. This takes you into the terrain of barbarism and brutality.

608
01:11:03,290 --> 01:11:11,140
And right, and I think I mean, if I may, I'm just going to link that to a broader question, which I have for yourself,

609
01:11:11,140 --> 01:11:21,520
which was, I mean, the the discursive power that things like the colonial and post-colonial theorists are concerned about.

610
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:33,040
They're trying to sort of overturn these hegemonic Eurocentric ideals that presuppose the the supremacy or

611
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:39,810
the normative issue of a particular sort of tradition of thinking and have in some respects underwritten,

612
01:11:39,810 --> 01:11:47,440
you know, the colonial traditions of the last few centuries. Just let me just give you a and all that these sorts of things now.

613
01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:57,530
I mean, in a sense, what you're arguing is that it is a a post-colonial colonial theorist ahead of the post-colonial decline terrorists that we have.

614
01:11:57,530 --> 01:12:06,640
And I mean, which is a fascinating claim to advertise and to say because I'm sure the latter,

615
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:14,830
the former, neither of them would particularly like that. But but yeah, I mean, I just wanted to sort of.

616
01:12:14,830 --> 01:12:22,150
Ask in what ways does this disrupt the self-image of everyone involved,

617
01:12:22,150 --> 01:12:27,580
whether it's the Islamists or the decolonial theorists of this colonial theorists, so to speak?

618
01:12:27,580 --> 01:12:37,600
Yeah, no, that's I think that that's in a way. Part of what's at stake in that first move.

619
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:43,940
And the way the Faisal very helpfully said there are sort of two trajectories.

620
01:12:43,940 --> 01:12:51,670
So that's that's I think what the the first trajectory thinking with it, that's that's sort of where it would take us.

621
01:12:51,670 --> 01:13:03,250
And it's there's a way the. I don't know, sort of paint with too grunt of a brush that I've misplaced on my finer brushes.

622
01:13:03,250 --> 01:13:13,120
There's there's a way, the postcolonial theory broadly simultaneously.

623
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:17,140
Its practitioners, and I guess I would include myself in that to some extent,

624
01:13:17,140 --> 01:13:28,330
its practitioners are certainly not outside of a certain kind of post enlightenment mode of critique.

625
01:13:28,330 --> 01:13:36,910
And yet at the same time that there is there, there are quite a few distancing manoeuvres that are fundamental to how post colonialism,

626
01:13:36,910 --> 01:13:46,240
anti-colonialism, the colonial theory operate with respect to movements that would be considered unsavoury in some way.

627
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:50,590
And yet the shared discursive space, the shared techniques,

628
01:13:50,590 --> 01:14:00,610
the shared insights and in some ways of the shared implications are something that we can't just sweep under a rug.

629
01:14:00,610 --> 01:14:14,110
So from my perspective, what's precisely interesting about it is it takes this notion of critique and it takes this worship of critique and that says,

630
01:14:14,110 --> 01:14:20,140
maybe we should be critical about this as the ideal that has come to dominate how we have this choreography.

631
01:14:20,140 --> 01:14:31,450
Because at the end of the day, I really do believe that one of the problems of this choreography is that it reproduces the very same kinds of silos,

632
01:14:31,450 --> 01:14:43,390
the very same kinds of geographies, the very same kinds of disciplines that our own disciplines have inherited, oftentimes quite unthinkingly.

633
01:14:43,390 --> 01:14:47,440
And what's interesting about someone like,

634
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:57,190
I'm guessing he probably wouldn't like being put in the company of various postcolonial and decolonial thinkers.

635
01:14:57,190 --> 01:15:02,980
You probably see them as symptomatic and in many ways.

636
01:15:02,980 --> 01:15:10,180
But I think what's important about reading and recovering his modes of critique is

637
01:15:10,180 --> 01:15:14,920
then the the alternatives the that opens up the alternative modes of thinking.

638
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:24,400
You mentioned Hamada, the work on duty, and she has this one article in particular in the Journal of Politics.

639
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:33,040
It came out either last year or the year before. That is absolutely brilliant on this front and really does try to push us to think in those terms.

640
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:47,110
And maybe one thing that links what I'm trying to do with Perturb and what Nasreen is also doing that is poking the remainder right,

641
01:15:47,110 --> 01:15:54,850
poking these analytics through these categories that or even these choreographies,

642
01:15:54,850 --> 01:16:08,060
the contemporary disciplines and the contemporary state pushes against or pushes to the margins because on the one hand, they're not useful.

643
01:16:08,060 --> 01:16:20,570
Right. And on the other hand, they raised a certain kind of question about the legitimacy of the categories and discourses that define.

644
01:16:20,570 --> 01:16:29,690
What is saleable by who and and what kinds of ways to put it in the most general terms?

645
01:16:29,690 --> 01:16:36,830
But but in that way, it would tell us that at the same time as we're using these categories of postcolonial and decolonial,

646
01:16:36,830 --> 01:16:48,770
we need to be really quite critical of the cultural ized work that already goes into who they give centerstage to and who they silence and why.

647
01:16:48,770 --> 01:16:51,780
That's the case. Thank you very much.

648
01:16:51,780 --> 01:17:01,320
I have, as always, sort of plenty of questions to put to our esteemed panellists, but I don't want to up the discussion either.

649
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:06,120
I have one for. And then maybe we can go back to you at this time.

650
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:14,900
So the three, you know, when you were talking about love from the very beginning of your talk, actually, when you mentioned so interestingly, the.

651
01:17:14,900 --> 01:17:27,790
If you will. Cherry picked or perhaps let us even take opportunistic, or at least on systematise mode of addressing some of these questions.

652
01:17:27,790 --> 01:17:38,830
I was put in mind of the sort of idea of this form of theoretical knowledge by one of my early teachers,

653
01:17:38,830 --> 01:17:42,970
Fazlur Rahman, who approached it from a completely modernist.

654
01:17:42,970 --> 01:17:48,340
He was a modernist of modernist viewpoint and sort of railed against it was a wonderful man, by the way.

655
01:17:48,340 --> 01:17:55,900
I don't mean to criticise him, but you know, he railed against the UN systematised and cherry picked,

656
01:17:55,900 --> 01:18:02,260
you know, mode by which jurists had approached the textual corpus.

657
01:18:02,260 --> 01:18:10,120
Not that they were not following up argumentative lines, but they refused.

658
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:16,240
For instance, in his view, to take the text of the Koran or that systematically.

659
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:23,470
And of course, he understood that one reason they might have refused to do so was precisely to

660
01:18:23,470 --> 01:18:28,030
allow for the pluralism that you in the street then came back to in your response.

661
01:18:28,030 --> 01:18:35,170
I think Osama and to make it impossible to head summarisation of this textual corpus.

662
01:18:35,170 --> 01:18:43,220
But actually speaking, it struck me. Yes, I completely get that. On the other hand, do you think that?

663
01:18:43,220 --> 01:18:51,560
That form of legal or juridical pluralism, the availability of different kinds of arguments, not entirely congruent with each other.

664
01:18:51,560 --> 01:19:04,100
Sometimes even not with themselves has reached its limits because after all, Al Qaeda and to a large extent ISIS also use similar forms of.

665
01:19:04,100 --> 01:19:09,110
Whatever you want to call it and systematised, or cherry-picked or whatever legal reasoning,

666
01:19:09,110 --> 01:19:15,170
however weak it might be in comparison with that of the sort of aseries.

667
01:19:15,170 --> 01:19:23,870
So, you know, one wonders what a fate lies before this otherwise admirable tradition of legal pluralism.

668
01:19:23,870 --> 01:19:31,730
Thank you. So this is this is something that I keep going back and forth on and extensively reflect, reflect on,

669
01:19:31,730 --> 01:19:43,820
I do think that on the one hand, there's there's an issue with system of taxation, regardless of it being singular or plural.

670
01:19:43,820 --> 01:19:53,970
We don't really see a systemised theory that is advocated by a particular institution or jurist and saying This is the theory that I promote,

671
01:19:53,970 --> 01:20:02,900
I'm trying to espouse and those are the domains of it we see with all the examples that have looked at, we see direct interpretation of the text.

672
01:20:02,900 --> 01:20:09,920
Sometimes we see reliance on jurisprudence sometimes and we see contextual assertions of muscle

673
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:18,290
and other times with no clarification of when to use what and what you can actually rely on.

674
01:20:18,290 --> 01:20:23,660
This is not a question of intellectual impoverishment.

675
01:20:23,660 --> 01:20:29,990
I do think if one looks at the situation that Al-Azhar is placed in, for example, it's one way to focus on another.

676
01:20:29,990 --> 01:20:37,970
It's not a coincidence. So many scholars have argued that Al-Azhar has managed to carve out a space for itself as the authority on

677
01:20:37,970 --> 01:20:47,120
social issues and the way it carves out that authority is by claiming a connexion with the classical tradition,

678
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:53,030
by relying on classical jurisprudence when it comes to matters such as Christian status and issues that

679
01:20:53,030 --> 01:21:01,490
or of that are social rather than political taboo issues that they cannot really keep a distance on.

680
01:21:01,490 --> 01:21:09,670
So from that perspective? The connexion with the tradition is the assertion of their of their legitimacy,

681
01:21:09,670 --> 01:21:18,520
the reliance on the jurisprudence is not just an intellectual commitment to the jurisprudence, but it's also part of the reason that.

682
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:26,980
But when it comes to other political issues where they have less of a freedom to carve out their own space, they have to.

683
01:21:26,980 --> 01:21:34,450
The whole theory starts to falter and and and the position becomes untenable.

684
01:21:34,450 --> 01:21:37,350
But it's.

685
01:21:37,350 --> 01:21:48,060
In a way, it's very difficult for them to imagine or carve out an alternative space considering the role that they play in domestic politics now,

686
01:21:48,060 --> 01:21:54,690
where they are cornered into a way to assert legitimacy by connecting themselves with that tradition.

687
01:21:54,690 --> 01:22:01,540
And I don't want to dispel the importance of the tradition. I mean it, as has been argued by many,

688
01:22:01,540 --> 01:22:08,190
the the claim of direct reliance on the text has also been used as a pretext for justifying

689
01:22:08,190 --> 01:22:16,050
militant thought and for eroding a millennia old tradition of learning in favour of again,

690
01:22:16,050 --> 01:22:17,700
singular interpretations.

691
01:22:17,700 --> 01:22:28,530
So I'm not I'm not sure if there is a way out for them, but they are left in a situation where they're in a dilemma whereby they have.

692
01:22:28,530 --> 01:22:36,090
We have two opposing parties, both using the same ammunition in very similar techniques to to fight against each other,

693
01:22:36,090 --> 01:22:44,350
and there's no winning that game. Thanks. It's really an extraordinary situation, isn't it?

694
01:22:44,350 --> 01:22:49,220
That and people who tend to look at the content rather than the form of these debates.

695
01:22:49,220 --> 01:22:55,340
They don't do a tweak to these strange problems. Osama, thank you.

696
01:22:55,340 --> 01:23:00,890
I mean, I actually did. I'm going to be a bit selfish and try and ask questions to both of you, actually.

697
01:23:00,890 --> 01:23:04,450
But you know, I'm sure we won't really have a great deal of time.

698
01:23:04,450 --> 01:23:06,710
I mean, just picking up on the this point.

699
01:23:06,710 --> 01:23:17,300
I don't mind who who goes first here, but I mean, some of what you were saying was reminiscent of Hulk's earlier claim.

700
01:23:17,300 --> 01:23:18,970
I mean, he doesn't make it in the same way about the death.

701
01:23:18,970 --> 01:23:28,040
The idea that this sort of multiplicity basically being flattened in the modern period reflects a death, the death of the city.

702
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:37,670
And I think, you know, I've suggested in a review of some of his work that this is maybe a bit overdramatic that we

703
01:23:37,670 --> 01:23:42,630
don't know the way in which the Shariah existed over the past millennium and its variations.

704
01:23:42,630 --> 01:23:49,300
I mean, we're still, I think, trying to grapple with the extent to which there was variation in its in its practise.

705
01:23:49,300 --> 01:23:54,620
It allows for much latitude, including the latitude of modernity.

706
01:23:54,620 --> 01:23:59,990
But I think this flattening of the diversity question,

707
01:23:59,990 --> 01:24:09,700
I wanted you to perhaps reflect a little on what luck is claiming and whether this means somehow,

708
01:24:09,700 --> 01:24:17,390
you know, modern Muslims can't really be adherents to a tradition that is consonant with the past.

709
01:24:17,390 --> 01:24:24,080
Or, you know, as modern Muslims are engaging with these sort of global historical transformations, particularly, I think most importantly,

710
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:33,200
the states and the fact that the state flattens its legal uniformity, I think, is part and parcel of the way in which we understand states.

711
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:41,870
Is there any prospect in a sense, do you think that for that to return that sort of diversity given?

712
01:24:41,870 --> 01:24:50,060
So that's kind of bunching two questions, one about one about the state. And very briefly, if it's possible because I know we're going to have to end,

713
01:24:50,060 --> 01:24:56,630
but three minutes actually the Thomas Babington Macaulay minute on education.

714
01:24:56,630 --> 01:25:03,830
I don't know if you're familiar with this 1835 sort of speech he gave in sort of parliament,

715
01:25:03,830 --> 01:25:10,070
but I just I'm reminded of a certain line and it just in 1835, he was saying, we must do.

716
01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:16,880
We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreted as between us and the millions who wake up India,

717
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:23,420
the class of persons, Indian and blood and colour, but English and tastes and opinions and morals and an intellect.

718
01:25:23,420 --> 01:25:24,050
And you know,

719
01:25:24,050 --> 01:25:33,800
it just made me think that's what came to mind when you mentioned Gottlieb's comments about the sort of white black Englishman with a document.

720
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:40,550
So anyway, I don't know who wants to take this first, but unfortunately, I have not let you go ahead.

721
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:47,690
Thanks. And sit in, and I'll be very quick. There's a super interesting genealogy.

722
01:25:47,690 --> 01:26:00,860
I think of that set of tropes with regards to at colonial governance and the like

723
01:26:00,860 --> 01:26:12,200
pretty blatant notion of a divided self that is thoroughly racialized in these terms.

724
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:19,670
And I shouldn't link it very quickly to another thing that I think is at stake in many of these conversations.

725
01:26:19,670 --> 01:26:26,270
And I think this applies to both presentations today in terms of some of the implications.

726
01:26:26,270 --> 01:26:30,770
And it's that in a lot of the discourses surrounding, you know, think what you want,

727
01:26:30,770 --> 01:26:36,350
whether it's critique or modernity or the Enlightenment or whatever it is,

728
01:26:36,350 --> 01:26:39,140
the production of race, the development of Empire,

729
01:26:39,140 --> 01:26:49,250
the Connexions across different anti-colonial movements that with a couple of rare exceptions, the the Muslim drops out.

730
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:54,530
Sometimes the Muslim fears that his or her head and then, you know, recedes from view.

731
01:26:54,530 --> 01:27:00,530
And that is symptomatic of something much broader about how we understand many of these categories.

732
01:27:00,530 --> 01:27:11,960
And I think that that's one of the things that the kinds of genealogy that you just pointed to, Osama that help us rethink, help us rewrite.

733
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:16,100
Help us perhaps even undo.

734
01:27:16,100 --> 01:27:21,410
OK, I'll stop there. And sorry to City and I left you with one or two minutes later.

735
01:27:21,410 --> 01:27:23,780
Now that's perfectly fine.

736
01:27:23,780 --> 01:27:34,160
So I do think that there are compelling aspects to this argument with regards to the dynamics of how Shariah shifted in the modern world.

737
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:38,780
But I also do agree with the critiques of Hamlet's argument.

738
01:27:38,780 --> 01:27:44,630
That assert that it disregards earlier presence of the political authority in the

739
01:27:44,630 --> 01:27:51,110
making of law and how the political authority has how you had administrative error.

740
01:27:51,110 --> 01:27:56,210
Yes, positions of law, even in the very classical assertions of Islamic law.

741
01:27:56,210 --> 01:27:58,730
I mean, I mean, a case in point is, for example,

742
01:27:58,730 --> 01:28:07,880
if you look at how this chapter on criminal law in his textbook Shariah theory and practise you find in the past section is rather brief and very,

743
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:14,810
very slim. I mean, despite the fact that most of the time, most of the punishments were actually worth Assiri punishments.

744
01:28:14,810 --> 01:28:20,120
So I mean, so on that account, I do find there are some issues there.

745
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:28,220
And I do have issues with the claims that Shariah is one model and and it has

746
01:28:28,220 --> 01:28:33,350
to fit that particular model and it cannot be reformulated or reinterpreted.

747
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:40,310
But that doesn't necessarily mean that the. So the question is not whether or not it can be reformulated differently.

748
01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:43,550
The question is whether or not I mean, in that particular context,

749
01:28:43,550 --> 01:28:56,240
there is a space in the current political context to offer alternative formulations that may very well be very different from earlier interpretations.

750
01:28:56,240 --> 01:29:01,970
It varies over time. But in the current context, there's a very slim chance for that.

751
01:29:01,970 --> 01:29:04,550
Thank you so much. Thank you, both.

752
01:29:04,550 --> 01:29:12,950
This has really been sort of a fantastic sort of kaleidoscope of thinking about a topic which is not seen with favour,

753
01:29:12,950 --> 01:29:18,980
of course, violence, so to speak, and for good reason in general.

754
01:29:18,980 --> 01:29:28,580
But I cannot thank you both enough for really giving us a wonderful sort of insight into some

755
01:29:28,580 --> 01:29:34,610
of these sort of cutting edge work that you are both involved in the theoretical reflections,

756
01:29:34,610 --> 01:29:45,950
the granular legal detail which you brought in as well. And I'm I can sort of only wish that we had much more time to be able to discuss these things,

757
01:29:45,950 --> 01:29:49,740
and I'm sure we will have plenty of options to reconnect.

758
01:29:49,740 --> 01:29:57,800
So if it's all right, I'm just going to briefly mention what's coming up next in our next session in a fortnight's time.

759
01:29:57,800 --> 01:30:07,790
So thank you both to industry and by the way, and at risk for really spectacular, interesting and engaging session in a couple more weeks time.

760
01:30:07,790 --> 01:30:17,900
We'll also be having a couple of scholars coming in, including in Selma, who's now based at Oxford and for the next couple of years.

761
01:30:17,900 --> 01:30:22,760
And Mohammed Fadel, who have both been naturally going to be talking about law.

762
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:31,400
So I look forward to sort of guests joining us then and if you have the time to join as well.

763
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:54,420
But until then, we look forward to seeing everyone in a couple of weeks time.