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Dan Hicks, your professor of contemporary archaeology at the University of Oxford.

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Curator at the Pitt Rivers Museum. And Philip Cross College, Oxford.

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Welcome to some college shorts. OK. Thank you. Lovely to be here.

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It's now just over a year since the start of the covered 19 pandemic.

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Can you describe your everyday research at Oxford? Before Kofod 19?

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Sure. Absolutely. So, you know, like a lot of academics in Oxford.

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I have a joint. Well, so I'm half in the museums and I have another foot in archaeology and an academic department.

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So my everyday life moves in between really the public sphere, the, you know, the parts of Oxford which are normally open to the public.

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The Rivers Museum, you know, where I am, curator of the world archaeology.

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I look after objects. And every part of the world and objects that relates to the history of anthropology and archaeology and empire,

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as well as to the other knowledge of, you know, non Western indigenous lives and cultures and in archaeology.

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I'm professor of contemporary archaeology.

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So I teach those aspects of archaeology that relate to the material world in the most recent sort of phases of the human past.

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So the modern world, the 17th century, 18th century, but also right the way up,

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you know, into the 20th century and into the material worlds around us in the present.

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So those two institutional roles overlap in really interesting creative ways.

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And they're both really all about. Fundamentally, I guess, about the relationship between objects and people,

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how important things of landscapes, you know, buildings and and art ways in our everyday lives.

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How did your world of research change when the pendant took hold? So in the Museum World Museum, Shutz hands,

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as I as I'm sure you've heard from other academics and you you know yourself on the teaching side and the research sides.

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Yeah, everything went online, I think, for the museum sector. It was that Beaubrun of Berlo colleagues who were unable to do their job in the museum,

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which led to all sorts of questions, you know, challenges for us about not asking too much of people.

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The challenges.

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So, you know, mental wellbeing over coping with children at home, which we're certainly, you know, we and our households had to deal with,

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but generally had to support colleagues in the museum for, you know, it was a funny moment, wasn't it?

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And the other, you know, the first weeks of lockdown. I mean, here we are talking in Italy.

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Twenty 21, you know, when it's unclear, you know,

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as of when these sort of lockdowns really will be over and you know, how this ends or when this ends at least.

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But certainly it was an orderly both to Will Abda, not the visual Bogues.

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It was a sense that the temporal lives that we were living, you know, things I mean, oddly, something seemed to happen faster than others.

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Some processes in the museum sector were speeded up while other things, you know,

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just took forever and not the visual moments that we were suddenly unable to be there to each other.

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The new rellenos, an anthropologist, one would say a new set of taboos upon, you know,

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physical proximity were introduced, but suddenly a whole set of new regimes for looking at each other.

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We've been staring at each other on screen, you know, looking into each other's houses for months now.

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So that fundamental recalibration, which is one that's affected all parts of society about time, about vision,

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about our human human connexions to our friends and colleagues, has, I think, been most visible in the museums.

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There's been obviously for teaching, supporting research students.

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You know, most of my work is with post graduate students, as is often the case at St Cross support,

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saying those students helping researchers to help each other to build new communities has been a part of this as well.

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But lots of looking at screens. I'm sure you've got the same. Can I follow up with a question which is you mentioned taboos created.

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I covered 19. What can you say anymore about that?

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Well, you know, taboos created and taboos lifted. You know how old it is that there was such sort of pushback for some of the hard rights against,

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you know, the wearing of masks that sense that virtually any other parts of the body can be covered.

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Indeed. You know, many parts of the body web where one is where it would be would be would be inappropriate not to be covered.

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That's something about the face and the nose. That was a step too far for some people to think that this might be, you know,

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even though it was so important for public health that might be, you know, wrong to do.

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I was really astounded by the anthropologist. And me was also upset, really by how little.

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We were in our public sort of dialogues thinking about the fact that this was only

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this was only a set of social mores that needed to evolve into a changing situation.

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You know, there are some. And, of course, all those wider arguments, you know, both visible in funds.

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But certainly one is it from our own prime minister or has done in the past over the politics of facial coverings for other reasons,

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you know, veils and so forth. You know, that they went to the heart of of a question of kind of dress of of comportment of,

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you know, I'm sure someone will white at some point a great,

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you know, account deficit and a ethnographic account of, you know, what we covered,

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but also what we uncovered, the fact that our faces have been so visible.

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I've never looked at my own face more. I think in my life that I have having it in the little corner of the zoom screen.

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And I'm sure lots of people listening to this will also have had that same experience.

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Can I ask you about the public health merchant system folded and how that affected the Pitt rivers?

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And the extent to which that affected museums more broadly? Yes.

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I mean, you know, the museums were shut to the public that they meant that some functions occurred.

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Indeed, in many cases adds to, you know, to carry on the basic sorts of processes of conservation, you know, security and so forth are inevitable.

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I think across the museums sector, there was this kind of your directorial kind of panic that somehow, you know, everything had to be moved online.

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How do you move a museum online? What? The biggest thing that was revealed was how NAF and how out-of-date, how under invested it.

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Most get a museum digital content is.

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So I was very aware in the early days of locked out the you know,

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managers were calling upon the digital teams who themselves were coping with all the things that, you know, they were under.

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They were locked down in their houses. They had the kids with them.

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They had all of all the challenges, the physical and the mental.

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So the challenges that lockdown brought and were being asked suddenly to get supplies of the hearts, you know, digital concept.

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That was part of the context, I guess,

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for the Museums on Blocks initiative was to try and take a bit of the Eakes off my colleagues that I saw on social media.

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I heard Heard's from who were well, look, if you don't have it now, you're not going to meet under these conditions.

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You're not going to suddenly create some amazing digital content for museums.

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Now, let's say you, director of those projects is museums and loved those is being curated.

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So I guess the first the initial idea was if the colleagues who are running the digital content of under such pressure,

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if the content is so weak at the moment in terms of what has been your digital creation,

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how can we make the digital match up to something more generally that's happening already in the museum sector,

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which is the model of curation is really evolving.

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So look back to the I guess, one of the most, you know, high profile sort of public engagement projects from a UK museum in recent years.

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Yeah. Neil MacGregor's History of the World at Hodgett Objects. That's the project that took place, sir, 10 years ago or so is completely out of step.

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It's incredible how how quickly that aged in terms of how it was conceived, in terms of its approach.

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Because, you know, that model was the expert who writes the male whites British voice who tells you a hundred histories that we already know,

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but we're illustrating with objects the objects that necessarily inform that story, but they're there to illustrate it.

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That's precisely the opposite of where these museums have undergone a radical change since then, whereby we talk now not of curation, but calculation.

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We don't just share knowledge or or you give knowledge, inform the public.

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We cooperate. We co creates. We don't just engage the public.

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We create with the public, we stakeholders and audiences and our partners.

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So the museums unlock project was really like based on that idea. Well, what if we just make the content ourselves?

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Let's have a series of themes. So in early days it was individual museums and cities and then it's over time it turned into themes.

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You know, we already have you know, the museums may be shot, but on our devices, on our laptops, our phones, in our high clouds, we have.

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Photographs that we took in museums, all of us do, lots of us do.

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So what if we share those and your bills, your part?

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This was a building, our bio existing, you know, social media following and community over Twitter.

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Let's you know, there are only such experts, whether they are furloughed, museum curators, whether they are artists,

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whether they're just really thoughtful local historians, you know, you know, thoughtful people.

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But we would have called members of the public in the past.

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They became so the participants, you know, so share share what you know, went where were you last, the DNA?

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When were you lost in Birmingham. What are your favourite, favourite artworks in, you know, Leeds in the south west of England and so on outdoors.

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What's your favourite ancient monument? What happens when we look at Egyptian archaeology?

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You know, internationally, we paid some visits to Venice and to New York.

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You know, it became great fun. But at the heart of how I think museums unlocked works even work to the point at which it got called out in a debate

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in the House of Lords is a good example of the resilience of the adaptation that museums saw over this time.

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Know it's successful, sort of twofold. It was both a kind or maybe threefold.

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It was there was a kind of memory side to it. Here are some places I've been I miss these places.

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I miss this artwork. I wish I could stand in front of this object or this painting again and I'll share it with the world.

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It was a sort of forward looking thing. I can't wait to go back.

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There is my itinerary for after this is all over, you know, and especially sharing knowledge was what an amazing museum.

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I've never been that that I've seen someone else share. I'll go there and then holding them together.

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The third thing, a source of competitive nature is showing off.

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Look at these great places I've gone. Look at how much I know about this. So it was sharing expertise as well.

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And I think that was what for me that became many came out of obviously existing curatorial practise that I, you know, undertake in my normal day job.

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But it translated very interestingly, I think, into digital content. And I certainly learnt a lot from it.

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And I'm indebted to all of the, you know, the thousands of people that contributed to the hashtag.

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All of the days are archived. First hundred days we ran and then we ran another twenty five at the end of the year.

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But largely this was a project from the night of April to the 9th of July in 2020.

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And yeah, I learnt a lot. I think it will inform my abusive practise as I move ahead, hopefully under different conditions.

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But who knows? Past years, a new attention paid to the politics of museums and heritage.

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No, no. This is something that you've been deeply involved in. Could you describe what's been happening,

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especially in relation to Koven 19 Lockdown's The Temporal Dimensions of Down

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served in part to speed up processes that were well that were already happening.

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And, you know, amongst those processes are what some people have called the decolonisation of museums.

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What I sort of prefer to see is an emergence of a kind of anticolonial, anti-racist, you know, set of tasks that music,

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you know, Victorian museums are increasingly having to carry out in order to make them themselves fit for the 21st century.

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You know, this is a process that already has happened.

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As any anthropologist or archaeologist will know that these are questions that have been colon's for two generations,

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Guiteau since the civil rights movement within our disciplines, although there's a lot more work to do there intellectually.

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But they haven't had the same purchase.

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They haven't seen the same change in the physical environments of museums, largely because it's very difficult to take an exhibition down.

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It's very difficult to dismantle or the physical infrastructure of what's.

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I think we're increasingly aware at times has been white infrastructure has been white supremacy,

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which has in the history of anthropology and archaeology, had a role to play in relation to Empire,

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in relation to the stories that are told and the objects that are displayed in spaces like the Pitt Rivers Museum.

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So long that has served.

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You know, when people saw the Black Lives Matter protests over the summer after one of the most recent of the racist murders in the United States.

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This, of course, was only the most recent or long term struggle for the Black Lives Matter movement in NetLogic from North America,

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which which which hasn't commonalities and kind of converge very interestingly in, you know, European museums.

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They have some commonalities with African led movements for fall ism and for restitutions.

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They fall isn't the falling of icons and statues of colonial power and the restitution movement,

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the physical dismantling of objects that were part of the cultural dispossession,

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often of the violence, dispossession of African civilisations and African nations.

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But the heart of that, we think back to 2015 16 with the beginning.

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Of the BLM movements in North America.

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As my colleague Dick Deciphers, you know, Ritson, this was a fundamentally visual movement,

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was the technology of dash cam footage and cell phone footage that could

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suddenly make visible Lanzi black violence that had been going on for decades.

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For centuries, it could suddenly be seen and sheds. That created a political movement.

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And and moments and ongoing a new phase in anty race in anti-racist work.

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I think in museums we're beginning to see something similar as collections come into focus.

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And the violence inherent in some of them comes into focus, too.

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So the work is the work of the curator to document, to list, to make visible over social media,

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over digital, which was the only way people could encounter, you know,

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the museum for the time that the doors were shot so that Europeans were in

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the same position as Africans not being able to see yet any of these objects.

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They were locked away from everybody apart from the caretaker. That has led to a very, very interesting moments,

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which has really pushed forwards these agendas of WG and cultural restitution, the permanent Dunns conditional,

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you know, return of objects that were taken under duress or with violence, some whose returns are being demanded, but also more generally.

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Questions about how to address it.

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Is it institutional racism in museums and more widely in the academy under representation, the share whiteness of these institutions?

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You know, these are these are your life conversations.

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That lockdown has simply increased the pace of I think some museums have had to change and adapt to the circumstances associated covered 19.

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Many of these changes were already underway starting two decades ago.

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Which of these changes do you think are going to become permanent? You think they're going to be the ones that were already being considered?

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Changes were happening and will continue. So hopefully new phenomena that you might think are in process.

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So I used to tell my students for years that Thomas Ku, you know,

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has it all wrong that when he wrote the structure of scientific revolutions, he overestimated the fact that science, you know, gets better.

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The idea of normal science, a giving way to stoats.

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Was he. He famously called the paradigm shifts. He was just you know, that's not how you look at the history of ideas.

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The history of science there. It's all much more complicated than that.

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I've got to say, the time that we're living in now has never felt more revolutionary intellectually.

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So I'm having to rethink how I think about Cuba.

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And I think we are in the middle of a fundamental change.

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You know, as we're talking, we dug that how and where this ends. We don't know it here in 10.

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But since a lockdown's. We don't know, have we?

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My guess is we've got another 10 months. We're about halfway through.

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But who knows? I mean, to some degree, some of the measures that affect the practise of the academy, the practise of museums may be here forever.

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Certainly, if we see the cove it crisis as not the dress rehearsal for, as some have argued, but the first moments of environmental crisis.

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You know, this is partly caused by the sheer movement's height.

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You know, the excess, the the the incredible movement by air travel.

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You know, people around the world, which we know is hurting us, hurting the planet and so many other ways, you know, through as has things warm up.

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We know that that bottle of international travel is over or will be over soon.

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If it's not over now, it's over a 10 year time so far for museums.

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Of course, that means that the art, the older they're not so old.

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But the current dog days are now outdated of that just sort of justify the hyper concentration of culture in certain locations.

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You know, all the global south. So the culture should be in the global north in so-called.

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So the universal museums, even within the U.K., all all these objects should be in London, in the British Museum, rather than in the regions.

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Those are where we're going to see the change, that sense of justice, that sense of redistribution of finance, as well as a sort of physical object.

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When we come to the after times of this lockdown, we're still going to see the old destination, sir,

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is a bottle that so much of my sector has been based on, the blockbuster bottle of, you know, the ticket sales and get loads of people into one place.

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That's going to be more dispersed, I think, without a doubt, because of these other factors involved.

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We're going to move this. There'll be a kind of degrowth, I think, for a cultural degrowth,

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which could be an incredibly exciting time, because we're going to we're going to hear other voices.

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We're going. Foreground social media will be a central part of that, that the hope is for more equitable,

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for more human approach to see, you know, two objects, museums, I expect.

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I hope my work seeks to make sure and to help the idea that museums need to care more for people than they do for theft and that more human face.

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And my most recent book that the Ben in Bombs is the British museums that just came out say no November.

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That looks at the brutality, the brutishness of, you know, the British museums.

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That's one step. That was one example of thinking, honesty.

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This reckoning with the colonial past, Bittles symbol, generally with how important arts and culture are,

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how significant these things are for world history, but also for for the future.

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So I'm very optimistic. I think so much will have changed out of these times, largely because existing processes will have been accelerated.

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But we'll also have seen a loss of loss, the loss of loss of debt for lots of personal sadness.

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And I think I hope that in their role as public spaces that that museums will also in the way in which they display art,

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in the way in which they encourage us to reflect on who we are and where we came from and where we're going.

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I really hope that that's, you know, that the cultural sector, especially museums,

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will have a role to play in helping us all to hear after these times, because it's been it's been horrible to everyone.

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But let's be hopeful.

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Furbys aims for full archaeology, for anthropology and for the sort of teaching and research undertakers across and at the Pitt Rivers.