1 00:00:00,750 --> 00:00:11,880 Okay, great. Yes, as Phil said, this is based on part of my HD thesis, which is in its final stages. 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,540 I did qualitative four work in a multi. 3 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:22,490 The only officially multi-ethnic districts in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In 2007, 2008. 4 00:00:22,490 --> 00:00:26,210 I don't know how well people know the case of Bosnia. 5 00:00:26,210 --> 00:00:32,000 I'm sorry if I say too much or too little about it. But please ask the clarification afterwards if we like it. 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,930 But this district has is important because it has a separate status to that of either of the two political 7 00:00:39,930 --> 00:00:46,590 ethnic entities which are established in the peace agreements in 95 and has its own supervisor, 8 00:00:46,590 --> 00:00:53,220 which is usually a white American male and has huge amounts of funding. 9 00:00:53,220 --> 00:01:00,460 It's really seen as a sort of a laboratory, I guess, for lots of experiments and reconciliation. 10 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:08,370 And it's been heralded as a big success story. So it's this sort of semi protectorate in this in Bosnia-Herzegovina. 11 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:17,610 So my research is you can tell by the title of the paper is really concerned with a critical exploration of reconciliation and citizenship. 12 00:01:17,610 --> 00:01:23,670 In many ways, it's quite theoretical and I hope that my work does have relevance. 13 00:01:23,670 --> 00:01:27,550 But cases other than Bosnia, although that's what we're talking about today. 14 00:01:27,550 --> 00:01:34,980 And I'd be interested to hear what if people got insights from other country contexts and to do the same issues I'm going to be speaking on. 15 00:01:34,980 --> 00:01:39,540 So firstly, I'm going to speak a little bit about the theoretical backgrounds, the work. 16 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:47,110 So talking about reconciliation in terms of restoration of moral and political community, then I want to say something, 17 00:01:47,110 --> 00:01:54,050 General, I suppose, about reconciliation, citizenship in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Brcko district where I did my fieldwork. 18 00:01:54,050 --> 00:02:00,810 And then I want say something about the field but material and in particular about two case studies, 19 00:02:00,810 --> 00:02:07,020 one of which was local community representation of a displaced persons group with the district government. 20 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:15,160 And the other one was an informal student. Protests that happened at the time of the ethnic integration of high schools in the district 21 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:21,840 for taking to key reforms are part of a multi-ethnic reconciliation agenda of the district. 22 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:28,260 So reconciliation, which is the key topic of my research, I'm sure you'll agree, 23 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:37,110 is really immersions a bit of a buzz word in sort of concerns of transitional justice and peaceful societies and peace building. 24 00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:43,530 It's this is emerged in the context of the sort of the new walls thesis and the increase in intrastate violence. 25 00:02:43,530 --> 00:02:49,920 We were discussing this morning and also this sort of merging of the development and security agenda, 26 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:56,640 which I'm hoffler actually illustrated really well in her presentation, which has been quite heavily criticised by other scholars. 27 00:02:56,640 --> 00:03:01,950 So just wanted to take a quote from Duff Elsworth, 28 00:03:01,950 --> 00:03:08,310 who says it contained within the shift in a policy towards conflict resolution and societal reconstruction. 29 00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:13,380 NORLANE Governments of our new methods and systems of governance through which to reassert their authority. 30 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:18,300 Liberal peace reflects existing consensus that conflicts in the South is best approach. 31 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:24,300 A number of connected, ameliorative harmonising and especially transformational measures. 32 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:29,790 So what you've had is a context in which there is greater intervention, greater complexity of intervention, 33 00:03:29,790 --> 00:03:36,750 a shift towards focus on social transformation, social actors as opposed to wars and combatants. 34 00:03:36,750 --> 00:03:41,670 And this is sort of broad and I guess the spectrum of what interventions allowed to include. 35 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:47,640 And I just wanted to take another short quote from an supplement to an agenda for peace. 36 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:54,330 Boutros-Ghali, which says that's another feature of such intrastate conflicts is the collapse of state institutions, 37 00:03:54,330 --> 00:04:01,920 especially the police and judiciary, resulting paralysis of governance, a breakdown of law and order in general, banditry in chaos. 38 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,600 Not only the functions of government suspended, its assets are destroyed and looted. 39 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,860 Experienced officials are killed or flee the country. This is rarely the case in interstate wars. 40 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:17,550 It means international intervention must extend beyond military and humanitarian tasks and must 41 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:23,430 include the promotion of national reconciliation and the rest abridgements of effective governance. 42 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:29,460 So this is the context in which reconciliation is becoming increasingly important in the last 10, 15, 20 years. 43 00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:38,850 So what do we know really about reconciliation or the scholarship on reconciliation is is quite varied and generally under theorised. 44 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:43,680 But I think there are three key points of debate in the literature that are worth 45 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,290 mentioning here and sort of illustrate different approaches to reconciliation. 46 00:04:48,290 --> 00:04:53,990 So the first one is a debate between approaches, which means reconciliation is instrumental. 47 00:04:53,990 --> 00:04:59,970 So you need reconciliation for peace. You need it for stable political government, needed for economic development. 48 00:04:59,970 --> 00:05:08,030 And then there are approaches which setas a goal in itself as representing human securities and freedoms. 49 00:05:08,030 --> 00:05:14,290 And then there's a second division between approaches which see reconciliation as an ongoing movement or 50 00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:20,500 process so necessarily incomplete and then approaches which see reconciliation as an end of movement, 51 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:29,410 marking closure. Then there's a third division where reconciliation is approached as a normative project where you have focus 52 00:05:29,410 --> 00:05:36,230 on the healing of communities to restore as a peaceful future through the restoration of moral community. 53 00:05:36,230 --> 00:05:42,050 You have consensus over the agreements of sort of social behaviour and morality governing social behaviour. 54 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:48,440 But you also have those who approach reconciliation is about the restoration of a political community and national unity. 55 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,780 So, of course, these different approaches overlap really in theory and practise. 56 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:59,510 But generally reconciliation scholarships tended towards much more normative approaches which focus on healing 57 00:05:59,510 --> 00:06:06,540 and the restoration of more community about creation of empathy through contacts of the contacts hypothesis. 58 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:08,900 Such as psychology and very influential reconciliation. 59 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:17,860 Work and criticisms of these approaches highlight a tendency towards a sense of closure, of seeing reconciliation as an end point, 60 00:06:17,860 --> 00:06:24,800 of prioritising consensus and national unity over what some authors really see it as a stuff of democratic politics, 61 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,740 which is the ability to contest, you know, social, political membership and conflict about those things. 62 00:06:30,740 --> 00:06:37,130 And also, they've been criticised for lacking in appropriate understanding of context and commonality. 63 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:45,560 So really, my research starts from this point of criticism of those approaches to reconciliation, of looking towards a politics of reconciliation, 64 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:55,520 which is being usefully defined by some other scholars to say about Hoess reconciliation as putting to question what's increasingly more, 65 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:04,310 more alarmingly is taken for granted in uncritical calls for reconciliation, which too often come to signify in the political discourse of our time. 66 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:11,690 The cool not just to put the traumas of the past behind us, but also in a sense, to put behind us the very politics of the past. 67 00:07:11,690 --> 00:07:12,770 So what I'm really interested in, 68 00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:20,840 in my research is asking what the political will the political community is that reconciliation approaches necessarily require within that, 69 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,190 what type of political subject is a reconciled subject? 70 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:33,680 And to really start to explore a very underexploited dynamic between reconciliation and citizen reconciliation and citizenship. 71 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,880 So to sort of turn to the case itself because of obvious time constraints, 72 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:46,480 not against talk about the historical development of citizenship in Bosnia, Prix's sort of 1992. 73 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:53,480 And this isn't to say that's not important. It's extremely important in influencing the ways in which citizenship is understood in Bosnia today. 74 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:59,620 And if you are particularly interested in that, we can talk about if. Could only have time to go into it now. 75 00:07:59,620 --> 00:08:04,520 So this sort of personal point wants to draw out from this sort of background to the context. 76 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:10,010 Is it during the war in 1995, there was a narrowing of political identification. 77 00:08:10,010 --> 00:08:16,400 So access to citizenship came founded on ethnic group identity, ethnic religion. 78 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:24,350 So you had a split in Bosnia between the three main ethnic groups, Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Croats. 79 00:08:24,350 --> 00:08:28,280 These ethnic identities became increasingly politicised and questions about political 80 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:34,190 community of who was in or out of political community became a matter of life and death. 81 00:08:34,190 --> 00:08:39,970 And then in 1995, the Dayton Peace Accords established what a local scholar. 82 00:08:39,970 --> 00:08:44,240 What some mortgage was referred to as an ethanol palace. 83 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:51,770 The Dayton Peace Accords being criticised for solidifying the gains made in during ethnic cleansing territorially. 84 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:56,420 And it's created a political state structure where your political representation is 85 00:08:56,420 --> 00:09:02,930 linked to ethnic group affiliation is a concession of democracy to ethnic entities. 86 00:09:02,930 --> 00:09:07,840 Three, a tripartite presidency which isn't, you know, a man or woman, a transsexual. 87 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:14,400 It's a bosun's of Boston and KRA that that's how you define. That's how the state sees you as a political subject. 88 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,310 This has actually been in tension with a nation building project being pushed by 89 00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:24,530 international actors to establish a Bosnian unity of Bosnian identity or to re-establish, 90 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:31,880 depending on your perspective, so essential actors imposer an anthem, a flag and a currency which were new. 91 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,660 Often domestic politicians were unable to agree. 92 00:09:35,660 --> 00:09:43,220 And research in Bosnia suggests that there's a real stateless problem now that where you actually have is a by and by Bosniac members of 93 00:09:43,220 --> 00:09:51,350 the community in the sense of state of a Bosnian identity and a disaffection by members of the Bosnian Serb and Bosnian crack populations. 94 00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:56,720 I mean, that's a massive generalisation, obviously. But the 10 but the trend tends to be that there's this statement problem. 95 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,280 It has legitimacy in the eyes of some members of the community and others. 96 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,230 So Brcko District has been established in this context. 97 00:10:06,230 --> 00:10:14,450 It was in 1999 and it was awarded its unitary and the status pursued very aggressive reconciliate reforms. 98 00:10:14,450 --> 00:10:20,960 They even have a multi-ethnic assembly which operates without a national ethnic veto at the state level. 99 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:29,940 They've integrated the judiciary, the police school system. It's this massive success story of return of reconciliation. 100 00:10:29,940 --> 00:10:36,180 The approach to reconciliation in this case has been very much based on contact and integration, 101 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:41,260 of creating a sense of understanding of the other of an active citizenry, citizenry. 102 00:10:41,260 --> 00:10:47,140 People actively participate in multi-ethnic projects in Greece, but also a sense of closure. 103 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:50,000 So reconciliation now is seen as being achieved. 104 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:57,370 And then the discussion, the public discussion about the district now is about attracting foreign direct investment, 105 00:10:57,370 --> 00:11:04,810 playing a key role in the movement from Bosnia into the European Union as the key political agenda now. 106 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:09,070 So in my research there and I chose a formal space of citizenship, 107 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:14,110 which are local communities and a less formal space of citizenship, which was public protest. 108 00:11:14,110 --> 00:11:16,000 So in the first case, 109 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:24,580 formal representation of local citizenships in the district has the representative bodies affiliated to territorial parts of the district. 110 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:27,350 So you have a territory. So the suburb of the town. 111 00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:33,580 So about one who votes her steering board and the president, who will then take the miles in the district government, 112 00:11:33,580 --> 00:11:41,650 the district government will decide whether or not to give them funding for a new playground, an education project, for example. 113 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:50,240 Now, during the war, all these local community representative groups became ethnically homogenised and displaced from territory. 114 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:56,240 So what happened was, say, a Bosniac community living in suburb, one of Bridgegate town will be forcibly displaced. 115 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:04,190 They would take them. This is like Nizza. So Mrs. Eid needs a bridge go so that one would actually be in the village traffic, you know, 30 miles away. 116 00:12:04,190 --> 00:12:08,150 But then on the front line had the development of parallel local community representation. 117 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:17,390 So in Brcko District suburb, too, you'd have one sensing at Boston seven months into his imprisonment, something Bosniac. 118 00:12:17,390 --> 00:12:24,020 So a key part of the multi-ethnic reform was the district to integrate these groups. 119 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:31,730 There's an interesting case of a small urban area in the east of the district Compressive Kapolei, where displaced persons, Greek, 120 00:12:31,730 --> 00:12:39,770 Bosnian Serbs who are displaced in central Bosnia and now demanding separate representation to the local Bosniac population. 121 00:12:39,770 --> 00:12:44,490 This has been denied by the district government on the basis that it's ethnically divisive. 122 00:12:44,490 --> 00:12:50,920 But I did interviews with the Bosnian Serb population and these really highlights there that whilst ethnicity is important, 123 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,300 it interacts with other very salient concerns, some of which are political economy concerns. 124 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:00,080 So they have very low standards of living and high unemployment levels because of 125 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,100 their marginalisation as both a rural community and a displaced persons community. 126 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,550 Not necessarily because they're Bosnian Serb, but in the city. 127 00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:14,690 So the question of ethnicity for them really interacts with these other Senate pets categories that can't be taken into account by the 128 00:13:14,690 --> 00:13:22,040 district government because it's so preoccupied with the relationships between ethnic groups and with establishing multi ethnicity. 129 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,770 So the points of which ethnicity did become important were at crisis points to do with political representation. 130 00:13:27,770 --> 00:13:34,310 So through the local community and also in joining together associations and deciding who would be the president. 131 00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:41,520 So ethnicity was extremely important. But in particular ways and in particular times. 132 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,060 And in many ways, the political discourse about ethnicity coming from the elites, 133 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:51,060 they found exceptionally frustrating because they didn't want to only understand 134 00:13:51,060 --> 00:13:55,640 their questions of representation in terms of the ethnic or multiethnic lands. 135 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,410 The second case study got swamped. 136 00:13:58,410 --> 00:14:06,510 The second case study was one of the student protests at the time of the integration of the high schools in about 2000 2001. 137 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:14,910 So in Brcko Town, there was the Bosnian Serb population was attending schools and the forcibly displaced Bosniac 138 00:14:14,910 --> 00:14:19,530 and Bosnian population were attending parallel schools in the villages surrounding the town. 139 00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:23,960 The government decided this was no, this would not fit in with their multi-ethnic reforms. 140 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,080 And a big part of their agenda was to bring to busing the students, 141 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:34,230 Bosniac students back into the town and to stop going to school again in mixed classes. 142 00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:38,250 Now, at the time that this policy was announced and start to be put into practise, 143 00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:43,260 the massive student protests both from these students who already go to school in the town, 144 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:47,670 the Bosnian Serb students and the students who are being bused in Maine Bosniac students. 145 00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:54,330 Schools were closed for a month and the government changed their policy to having graduated integration programme. 146 00:14:54,330 --> 00:15:02,700 So year by year. Classes of integrated till eventually after seven years had a fully integrated system, which happened a couple of years ago. 147 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:08,250 So official documentation on the protests and interviews I did with government officials dismisses them as agitation. 148 00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:11,810 Ethno nationalist politicians who are unhappy about the establishment, the district, 149 00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:19,770 he he'd interfered with the school system or manipulating impressionable teenagers to get them to go out and wave flags. 150 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:28,880 And as you know, break there was cases of breaking the windows of shops owned by Bosnia residents, for example. 151 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,300 But I was quite interested, actually, in what the motivations were of students who take part in the protest, 152 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:41,280 particularly given the context of now an integrated school system, which there haven't been any further protests at this point. 153 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,830 So what I found I did indicates the students who had taken part to these are these are retrospective narrative interviews, 154 00:15:46,830 --> 00:15:48,660 which raises all sorts of mythological problems. 155 00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:54,480 Obviously, when I did interviews with them and they really suggested that they had their own very specific Meitav motivations. 156 00:15:54,480 --> 00:16:04,710 They were political actors in their own right. They didn't necessarily fit into this logic of ethnic conflict or or ethnic coexistence. 157 00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:08,100 So I did just general interviews with all of the students, 158 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:12,640 and some of them suggested that it was like they were caught up in the fervour of protests, their classmates. 159 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,700 In doing so, they wanted to do any kind of farm and some other said that they were just not really. 160 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:24,720 I'm happy that this class they bonded with the six year was was going to be broken off and they weren't going at their graduation photo together. 161 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:32,640 It's going to be like a strange case. I didn't know in that photo. Others said that they were afraid that if the Bosniac students came out to school, 162 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,690 that would mean that parents were calm and they'd want jobs and houses in the town and 163 00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:41,340 it would create these kind of tensions and insecurities for them and their families. 164 00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:47,730 And I also did manage to find three students who chose not to take part in the protest 165 00:16:47,730 --> 00:16:53,460 despite being part of the Bosnian Serb main high school with Bosnian Serb protests started. 166 00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:57,810 I went to interview them to find out why they hadn't taken part. One of them was very interesting. 167 00:16:57,810 --> 00:17:03,810 Woman she was. She just got herself as pure Bosnian Serb. Her mother and a father wasn't the Serb. 168 00:17:03,810 --> 00:17:09,990 She'd lived in Germany during the wars when she came out to school that year before they were integrated. 169 00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:14,620 She looks kind of crazy. She is like no one wanted to talk to me, like Punky and I will hombach trousers. 170 00:17:14,620 --> 00:17:17,650 And she didn't write Cyrillic, which is the Bosnian Serb script. 171 00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:25,230 And so when it came to it on the process, she wasn't expected to take part because she wasn't seen as being Bosnian Serb in those important ways. 172 00:17:25,230 --> 00:17:28,010 So she could really distance herself from that. 173 00:17:28,010 --> 00:17:33,120 The second scene I interviewed was a Bosnian Croat who was very well integrated into the Bosnian Serb school, 174 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:39,270 but also have friends in the Bosniac and Bosnian crab populations who been brought back into the town. 175 00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:43,450 And she would describe walking through the town with her classmates and waving to her friends, 176 00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:47,090 her Bosniac friends and then her classmates and why you went to them. 177 00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:52,590 And she gonna have to tow this line of being integrated into one system, having networks with another system. 178 00:17:52,590 --> 00:18:00,000 And she managed it very well through her personality and making choices about what she'd say about the political situation. 179 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,980 And then the third person I interviewed had a mixed, ethnically mixed ethnic background, 180 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:08,620 and she, for most of her life at school, had been too afraid to say so. 181 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:14,760 And so when her classmates assumed she was Bosnian Serb because her name, she didn't tell them otherwise. 182 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,680 But then at the point at which the protests happened, 183 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:23,890 she really felt that she had to come out almost and declared herself as not associated with her classmates. 184 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:27,570 And this is a really important point for her personally. 185 00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:32,630 In fact, she doesn't feel comfortable. Come back to the district now, isn't untouchable her classmates. 186 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:37,890 So really like those this example with the student protest really shows that, in fact, 187 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:45,720 the students didn't conform to actually national logic and that they made choices based on their own personal political convictions, 188 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,390 their friendship groups, their own experiences, their desires to complete their education systems, have a good life like anyone else. 189 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:56,370 But in but in narratives of that experience of the district. It just doesn't fit in. 190 00:18:56,370 --> 00:19:03,960 So the closing remarks, which I suspect have to make briefly now, four things I want to say about these two cases. 191 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:10,320 So one is that the primacy of ethnic identities in the integration formula of reconciliation 192 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:17,190 of this district really denies the realities of experiences for ordinary residents or candy. 193 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:20,640 The second point linked to that is that ethnicity is important for people, 194 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:26,370 but it's interaction with other social and political categories is what makes it interesting. 195 00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:31,110 And you need to understand that dynamic to really be able to grapple with questions of reconciliation. 196 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:34,940 So categories of rural and urban newcomer returnee are very important. 197 00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:38,600 And that's who I mean, this isn't new in terms of literature in Bosnia. 198 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,120 Of other people have been saying this long time for it at my age. 199 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:47,250 The third point is that multi-ethnic in the district and its conceptualisation of reconciliation 200 00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:52,440 is an end point really d politicises the task of reconciliation and really fails to 201 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,450 take into account the demands on people to be either ethnically neutral or part of the 202 00:19:57,450 --> 00:20:02,130 unified political community won't necessarily resonate with how they understand themselves. 203 00:20:02,130 --> 00:20:05,580 In relation to the people that they share social and fiscal space with, 204 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:14,160 and then the last part is really that women want to talk about using reconciliation to get transitional justice for sustainable peace. 205 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:21,200 We have to bear in mind that post-war in post-war societies, the nature of citizen or in the nature of state will be contested. 206 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:28,710 And any calls or expectations for unity or restoration of community imply a certain type of political subject, 207 00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:32,352 which isn't necessarily going to resonate for people on the ground.