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Bye. Thank you very much to the Oxford Peace Studies Network for the invitation to speak today.

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It's great to see you and see such a great turnout.

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So as you've heard, I'm involved in Peace Reps.

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Ukraine team say this program within Peace Rep has been running since October last year and we are working very closely with Ukrainians on the

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ground in Ukraine and our research is really about co-creating knowledge with those that are experiencing the impacts of violent conflict.

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And in that context, we part of our part of our research is building a network of local researchers on the ground in Ukraine,

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spread across different territories, and using their insights into local conditions to feed ideas into our wider work and

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to really build evidence based understanding of what is happening in this conflict.

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And one of the big priorities for us, particularly in the run into the Ukraine recovery conference, is Ukraine's economic needs.

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And in the talk I give today and I don't think I didn't realise we would get got a generous 15 minutes that

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she had planned for ten say if I don't if I don't need ten you can tell me off because that was my intention.

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And so and that will affect some of the analysis that I give you today, because Ukraine really isn't in a good place economically at the moment,

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as well as the appalling crimes that are committed in the course of the Russian invasion, too.

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So the question I'm really going to engage today is what does the war against Ukraine tell us about our changing world?

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And how many people in my discipline, international relations, argue that this is really a return of geopolitics.

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It's a return of great power politics in another discourse.

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It's the revenge of the revisionist powers.

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And I think all of these categorisations of the war against Ukraine are quite misleading and often made by people.

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To be honest, you aren't on really getting insights to what's happening in Ukraine on the ground,

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but speaking much more at a international geopolitical level or even an ivory tower level, if you want to put it pejoratively.

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And they have a few things in common.

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I think the first is that they're very state centric in their understanding of this conflict, particularly this idea, geopolitics,

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political geography, that the most important thing about the world in which we live is fundamentally territory and who controls it.

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I think that's a quite mistaken assumption when it comes to the course of this conflict.

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It misses out by two elements that I think we need to consider.

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The second is a question of time, which is really important in this idea of return, right?

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It's drawing on a kind of sick little view of history that there's something that was present in the past that's just returning, it's coming back.

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And so there's a resurgence of, if you like, a past sense of affairs.

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The war is regenerated, something that we thought had lost.

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And I think that's also quite mistaken because it's not asking the question we I think we need to ask about this war,

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and that is what's new, what's distinctive, what's changing in global politics.

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The other question, I think, is around the causes of the conflict that this often gets wrong.

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If you think of it in terms of territory that the great powers, great states, there are security claims on the international order.

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This can also lead to the, I think, the false claim that NATO's expansion caused the war.

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And there's quite a good body of evidence to show that this simply isn't the case.

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I mean, one data point could be Putin's statement in May 2002, where while he didn't renounce Russia's historic opposition to NATO's expansion,

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he certainly indicated that he was extremely relaxed about it.

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And even in the case of Ukraine,

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explicitly stated that that the decision of whether Ukraine should join NATO or not was a decision that only Ukraine could make

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independently a correct actually position made at a time when Russia's relationship to the West was obviously very different.

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And I think the the other question that we need to consider here is whether that leads into the conclusion that really, you know,

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the nature of the military balance of forces between states is actually the most decisive one,

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because actually it's not just the military balance of forces, it's how individuals like Vladimir Putin.

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Imagine that distinction, how they think about the balance of forces between states.

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And then the final point of critique I want to make against some people in my discipline, not the whole discipline I have to say to some people.

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And the final point, because I think this gets wrong,

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whether you can actually achieve strategic efficacy for military intervention in the world today.

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If you think about the conflict purely in terms of this return of great power politics,

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I think what you miss is the great power politics isn't very effective in achieving the aims of great powers.

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And I think here I'm drawing on the work of my LSC colleague Mary Kaldor, who argues,

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I think very correctly that military intervention overseas isn't effective in bringing about what we can refer to as compelling,

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as compelling a state to behave in a particular way.

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So then the second so that's the first point I want to make in my,

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my first 5 minutes and the war that the way I want to get across that critique of how we think about the war of Ukraine.

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And then so if it's not about great power politics, well, what's going on here and here,

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I want to argue that it's better to see the war against Ukraine as a sign of the

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fragmentation of world order that's taking place on lots of different levels.

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One level, I think, is the level of ideas, of ideology, a kind of discursive level,

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where that's where there's a much greater fragmentation of identities.

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And within that context, within that frame, there's a rise of ethno nationalism, authoritarianism in many states all over the world,

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and that Putin's Russia has seen one of the most extreme examples of this wider trend to authoritarian ization.

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The second part of this fragmentation that picks up on what Alex was saying

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earlier is that the world is going through a period of economic transition.

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So the paradigm of free market neo liberalism has displaced significantly and in fact is being inverted.

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So, you know, whereas 20 or 30 years ago, big corporations were asking the state to get out of their lives as much as possible,

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leave them alone so that they could get on with the task of making money.

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That's no longer the case. The paradigm has shifted really quite significantly because now corporations are interested in what states can do for them.

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One buzzword that's often used is de-risking.

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How do you reduce the risks of the investments that we make?

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The corporations are obsessed with talking about security considerations and geopolitics in for their investments in this new world order.

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And what this is a sign of broadly is that markets are becoming much, much more dependent upon states.

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Then there's a related aspect to this, too, which is to do with environmental change,

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which obviously this is part of the economic transition, which I think is driving this fragmentation.

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Part of the reason that corporations are so interested in de-risking their investments is

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because of the extraordinary ecological threats that the world is facing all the time.

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And that, again, is making politics and political security a more and more important consideration for capital.

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And then there's this other aspect that I think you really see in the civic response to the war against Ukraine,

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that if you think of the war just in terms of what's happening in Ukraine,

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you're going to miss out on all of the transboundary connections that are part and parcel of Ukrainians everyday resistance to the invasion.

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One of my colleagues in East Carolina, Jessica Shaw at your Colonial University,

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has been studying the extraordinary civic response in Poland to the challenge of migration.

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And this isn't just a question of the humanitarian considerations for migrants in Poland, though,

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of course, that's very, very important to make sure that the refugees are well looked after.

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It's also about the self activity of Ukrainian civil society organisations inside Poland and how they're interacting with their homeland,

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whether that's raising money for humanitarian relief that is then going back to Ukraine or also it has to be said,

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raising money for the Ukrainian military directly through crowdfunding platforms to support the war effort.

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This is all this is all part and parcel of this sort of fragmented picture.

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And in a way, migration and diasporic links are a feature of this sort of globalised.

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Well, this fragmented, globalising world that we've grown used to.

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So each of those trends boundary levels, ideas, ecology, economic linkages, civic mobilisation and shaping how states respond to the war itself.

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And this certainly leads into, I think, if you like, opportunities of this global fragmentation.

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Maybe there's an opportunity in this new environment for progressive economic paradigm change.

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Maybe there's opportunities within this fragmented environment for developing

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sustainable peace strategies that address in different ways each of these levels.

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Perhaps a new internationalism, we might call it.

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But of course, there are also extraordinary dangers, and we would be foolish not to emphasise those.

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In Ukraine,

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I think the principal danger lies in the intersection of economics and security and how those two elements are interacting with one another.

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My fear is that the economic situation in Ukraine is so negative, with around one in three people looking for work,

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unable to find it, that a certain state that the society might has a risk of some form of fragmentation or breakdown,

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and that would create an environment in which the Ukrainian resistance loses its kind of civic character,

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its democratic character, potentially, or finds it much harder to sustain that civic democratic character.

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Unfortunately, in the fragmented world in which we're living in, we have many,

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many examples of conflicts that go through this process of fragmentation and then become very,

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very difficult to stop, especially when lots and lots of groups emerge that have in one way or another,

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a interest in perpetuating a cycle of violence, perhaps as a means of survival and so on.

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So this is a clear risk at the same time.

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And with that economic exhaustion, we also, I think, could say equally on the Russian side, but for slightly different reasons.

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And this conventional war, this high intensity conventional war, very different to the conflicts that my colleagues on piece rep peace rep study.

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This high intensity conventional war may lead to a situation where both sides lose the ability in one way or another to continue to fight the war.

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On the Russian side, that would not be due to domestic economic exhaustion,

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but the impact of sanctions in its ability to procure the high end manufacture of high tech

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weaponry and the high tech weaponry that it needs to sustain the tanks that it's using and losing,

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it has to be said in the conflict itself. With that, exhaustion comes a clear risk, very clear risk of violent escalation.

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That poses a question, a challenge, of course, for peacemaking.

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So then in the final guess, the final remark and all conclude, I don't know if I was successful on my 10 minutes.

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I suspect not, but I think that was more like 15.

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So say the relationship. So, yes, so I think any any peace in Ukraine, we have to put at the forefront the question of peace with justice,

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not peace at any cost, and for a sustainable peace to have to be achieved.

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That has to be a recognition of a peace that's in combat.

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It compatible, excuse me, with international law, recognising territorial integrity,

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the principles of the rule of law system, and the principles of sovereign equality and democracy.

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Thank you. Thanks so much.

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We have we have time for one question because I shall allow time for one question if there is one.

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Yeah, right. Yeah. It's only getting useful, but a flawed suggestion.

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One of the opportunities could be a new specialism.

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Could you expand on that slightly? And that's just an international is the way to turn the spirit of the United Nations and its ambitions,

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particularly among the smaller countries, because we lost the war, I think.

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Yes, I agree. And I think if there's been if there's been one positive in this terrible, terrible war,

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it has been the extraordinary strong support in the United Nations General Assembly for the fundamental principles of that international order.

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I mean, I think sometimes supporters of Ukraine, I mean, in the global solidarity movement, mistakenly and I think counterproductive.

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Counterproductive. Lee downplayed the support that Ukraine has internationally.

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Actually, you see this in a lot of the discourse around African states.

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There have been many African states that have made passionate speeches at the

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General Assembly to uphold the fundamental principles of the international order,

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that this is a question of sovereign equality, territorial integrity and so on.

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And Ghana is one good example. Kenya is another, and indeed only one state has voted with Russia, Eritrea.

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So I think one of the things that we're trying to get off the ground at LSC is to create much more

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international dialogues between civic movements and states and in in Africa and the Ukrainians themselves.

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Our recent start to this what we have a webinar series called the Russia Ukraine Dialogues where we did a really good session, I think,

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with the Ukrainian ambassador for South Africa who really understands the sensitivities of the issue and you can find it online.

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It was a great discussion, I think really underlines the strength of support that Ukraine has in Africa.

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So be careful in terms of how you talk up Russian disinformation operations in Africa, in the Bognor group and everything.

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All of those things are true. They're happening, but it's not the whole picture.

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And it's vital that we give visibility to democratic internationalists, civic Africans as well.

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So much of it is shifting in holistic view to start a session.

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Next speaker is Brooks Newmark, who is founder of Angels for Ukraine, and he's going to tell us his story.

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He is a doctoral student here in Oxford, a former member of parliament in the U.K.

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Hand straight over to you. Thank you. Okay.

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Well, thank you for inviting me. Yes, I am a student here, a very mature student that I could be talking,

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I think probably for the little section Ruth Lentz could going to be speaking in, which is student led initiatives.

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But I thought I would sort of tell my story of it because it is an initiative

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in a country I really didn't know and have no background in doing what I did.

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You know, so my story is really about being a social entrepreneur in a war zone.

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And when I think of being an entrepreneur, which is what I was in my previous life before politics, it was about making money.

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But being an entrepreneur is also about looking for opportunities out there to do something that maybe other people aren't doing.

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And so when I say I'm a social entrepreneur,

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I went into a war zone figuring out how could I be helpful in a way that maybe other people aren't being helpful?

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And so I had just finished my field research case tonight in Rwanda, where I'm looking at education policy in Rwanda on February 24th.

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And I saw a post on Instagram by a friend of mine who was on the Polish border with

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a bus and was moving people away from the refugee centres further into Europe.

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And I was supposed to be going scuba diving, but I cancelled my scuba diving and I said to my friend,

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Can I come and join you for four days just to try and help out, see what I can do?

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And so I went out there, changed my clothes from warm to getting dealing with cold weather.

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And I went out there and, you know, we were shuttling people away and I stayed a bit longer.

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I was there for two weeks and we were moving people away.

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But one of the stories I kept hearing about was that people were charging people a lot of money to get away from the war zone,

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particularly from around Kiev. So my friend, who's Latvian, had to go back to Riga.

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So I said to him, Can you find me three buses because I want to go into Ukraine.

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So he said, Sure, but I'm not letting you have my quarter of €1,000,000 buses.

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I'll find you three second hand buses from Lithuania. So I got these three buses he sent to a friend with me who spoke, I'm going to say Russian.

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He didn't speak Ukrainian. And so we sort of went in and I went in to around Kiev,

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and we were taking people away from the war zone to the border back to where I initially started.

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And over the next few weeks, as the Russians were pushed away, we found that we were sort of less busy.

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And so then the next thing I heard about, there were a lot of people getting away from Mariupol.

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So the bus drivers I had, which were from Lithuania, didn't know the roads.

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So I figured out I had to contact the National Bus Company and I figured they needed work.

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So I contacted one of the national bus companies and I said, okay,

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I want to go down to his operation because there are a lot of people down there who are getting away from Mariupol.

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And can I have some buses and a bus driver and how much would you charge me?

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And so I negotiated a deal and which, by the way, I was sort of funding myself at this stage.

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And I started moving people away from who are from Mariupol and taking them up to leave it, which was safer for them over the next month or two,

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when unfortunately the Russians then got control of Mariupol, there were less people to move away.

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So then I had to go to the east and I decided to go to Kharkiv because I was hearing

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that there were a lot of people in some of the smaller villages who couldn't get away.

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They couldn't move, they had no money and no means to get away and were under constant bombardment.

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So then I had when I went out there and it was difficult to find a bus driver who would come with me because I'm going into a war zone.

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So I said, Fine, you know, I'll go in. You know who's coming with me?

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And I found two bus drivers to come with me with a bus.

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And so once they saw that this crazy bridge was willing to go into a war zone with buses, I got more bus drivers to actually come with me.

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But then I had two other problems that I was facing.

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Well, that was the first problem, was getting bus drivers going to a war zone.

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The second problem was, of course, because I was doing this for free, a lot of the people didn't trust me.

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They thought that perhaps I was taking them into Russia because this is for free and maybe this was a secret way to take them into Russia.

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So unfortunately, I then had to charge them some money.

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So I charge them 1050, which is the equivalent of ten P and they felt, okay, this must be real because they're charging me for money.

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This has to be real and they're going to take me to safety.

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So I started I spent a lot of time I probably spent about six months in the east part of the country

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around ISM and a lot of the other villages around there just moving more and more people away.

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By this time, I had 20 buses that I was working with and paying for.

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And I think by by probably the middle of the summer,

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I had moved about 11,000 people with mainly women and children away from the frontline villages that were getting bombed.

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And then I had a massive challenge. I then the local intelligence, the SBU, contacted me.

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They said, you know, we want to try and get a thousand people through a particular checkpoint, but we need somebody who will move them.

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Will you do that? So I said, sure. So this was July.

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And so I'm I drive out because at this point I'm in Libya.

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So I drive across the country. I'm supposed to organise this on a monday in July, arrive at 630,

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I get a phone call saying I'm afraid we may have to call off the evacuation of a thousand people because the Army have laid landmines.

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They lay mines, rather, on the 500 metres between the Russian checkpoint and the Ukrainian checkpoint.

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So I said, this is ridiculous. I'd come all the way out here to try and move these people.

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I said, I want those mines moved by tomorrow or figure out a way we can get a path through the mines.

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But I will be there 730 in the morning played. So I went to the bus station in Kharkiv and there were 20 municipal buses.

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I think these lime green buses there, they were ambulances and they're all ready to go.

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And they said, We've sorted your problem, Mr. Neumeier, don't worry. So I'm driving.

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So I send the buses off ahead of me and I'm busy following them.

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I'm about 10 minutes behind them and I'm driving down some dirt road and I hear this loud bang and I think,

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[INAUDIBLE], you know, I blown a tire in my car. Have I got a spare tyre?

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So I say to Igor, I think we blown a tyre.

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And he said, No, no, no. That was just a mortar bomb that landed seven metres, 70 metres behind us.

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So we sort of sped along.

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We arrived at the checkpoint and the head of the army in that place said about a hundred people there sort of pointed his finger to me,

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said, come with me. And he took me around the corner from the checkpoint.

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And they had actually moved these mines to imagine the road on both sides where they had moved the mines to this side.

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Now, I know the difference between what is a landmine, which is you can trigger by stepping on it,

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and an anti-tank mine, which is quite big, but you could flick a switch at the side and literally lift it and move it.

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So they had cleared a path for me of 500 metres, so.

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So that was one problem resolved. And I said, Why did you lay these mines when I knew they were coming?

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But we thought they were Russians were going to use the people as a human shield.

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So we wanted didn't want the tanks to come across following these people.

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So the next problem was they then cancelled it again on me saying, well, we're worried that Russians will infiltrate with these people.

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So at this stage, I'm sort of standing there wondering, you know, how how am I going to persuade this guy?

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This general suddenly turns up. He sort of is like a Norman Schwarzkopf.

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I don't know if you guys remember him, look alike with a ponytail and huge guy.

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And he comes up to me and he's sort of curious that this Brit is they're trying to sort of organise all this.

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So the very first question is he's worried about Boris Johnson,

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who is stepping down at this point, and that is our Britain going to still be supporting us.

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So, yes. Don't worry, the British are going to still support. And I said, But what?

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You could do me a favour and tell that captain over there to please let the people I saw.

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I don't know how many people or the Russian checkpoint, but if they are willing to walk through a minefield.

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I think we should let them do it anyway. He barks and order and they do.

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And they start coming through and we get the first to go through.

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And what was extraordinary, it was sort of dystopian because they were, you know, old people pulling one bag along.

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There was a lady with two Alsatian dogs. There was another lady carrying a cat with her bag.

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There was a woman who had pushed her mother 15 kilometres in a wheelchair.

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I said, Why did you why couldn't you drive her to the checkpoint?

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At least the Russians stopped us and said, If I want to go to the checkpoint, you have to get out and push your mother in the wheelchair.

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And so at the end of the day, we we ended up getting within three and a half hours,

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1015, mainly women and children and elderly people through this checkpoint.

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And this is sort of one and certainly one of my abiding memories of my time there.

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By the time September came, most civilians that I could evacuate, we had evacuated.

251
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And so I did a pivot, as any entrepreneur would, because there's no more business there for me.

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And so I started focusing on evacuating amputees, and there weren't enough ambulances to to take them from the front line hospitals to get treatment.

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And the problem with many of the hospitals in Ukraine was they couldn't deal with severe trauma victims.

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So then I started moving amputees to the Polish border to just of and getting them airlifted to hospitals,

255
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mainly in Germany, who could deal with trauma patients.

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And my final pivot came when the weather started getting cold because the Ukrainians were doing an amazing job,

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particularly in Kharkiv region, where I spent a lot of time pushing people out of a lot of these small villages.

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So there were a lot of occupied villages, but that were probably three quarters bombed, but people wanted to go back there.

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And so I then started bringing warm clothing or blankets and a lot of humanitarian aid.

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And by the time sort of my anniversary had come up in mid February, we moved,

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I realised over 31,000 women and children away from frontline villages to safety in western Ukraine.

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And that in essence is my story. And thank you for listening and if you've got any questions for that.

263
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12 minutes. Good. You. Well, if anyone has got one burning question, John Boehner, how would you pay for it all?

264
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Okay. Well, I paid because I was a hardcore capitalist before I went into politics.

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So I put about a quarter of a million of my own money in.

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And then I went to about 25 friends of mine who I was at business school with and raised about another three quarters of a million.

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So. So I raised so I moved about 31,000 people for about $1,000,000.

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But I had no central costs. So any central costs I paid for.

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So every penny that went in and I did this, there were just three of us doing this.

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We had no organisation or anything on the ground.

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And what I would say to the very large NGOs out there is, you know,

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you can do things effectively on a shoestring with not huge overheads if you really put a little bit of business practice,

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which is what I had into this. The second advantage I had was because I'd been in politics, I knew the importance of working with local governments.

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So I ended up setting up ten virtual hubs around the country where I worked with each of the mayors in everywhere,

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from Kiev down to Venice, down to Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, all the way up through to Kharkiv, Sumi and so on.

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So I have ten hubs there, but no organisation. They're virtual hubs, but I certainly now know Ukraine probably better than most Ukrainians.

277
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Thank you. Well, thank. Well of course we have Dr. Mani Howard.

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We're delighted to welcome now in our north program this morning.

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Some time to. And you have some PowerPoint slides so the student.

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Money is a so I lost my place.

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Departamento lecturer in Russian and East European politics here in Oxford.

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Two teachers in both the Department of Politics and International Relations and the School of Global and Area Studies.

283
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And we welcome you very warmly to speak about understanding Ukraine grass roots.

284
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Morning. Great. Well, good afternoon, everyone.

285
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It's nice to see so many faces.

286
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I've just come in from up the road and at another conference where we've been talking about Ukraine for the last two days.

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So my head is sort of everywhere. But what I noticed at the conference that I just came from and something that actually I think Brooke did

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a fantastic job in his talk was sort of the idea that Ukrainians are missing from this conversation.

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And I'm going to do right now a little bit of what Luc just did is kind of push back against

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my disciplines and question where the voices of Ukrainians are in these conversations,

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and especially within political science and international relations,

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but also within many of these policy circles and media accounts, the absence of Ukrainians is very clear,

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at least for me as a member of the Diaspora and as someone who's been working on Ukraine for the last ten years,

294
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I've spent a great deal of my life in the country. And so for me, elevating the voice of Ukrainians is very important.

295
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And I'm really glad to see not only many individuals on the program today, but many Ukrainians and some of my own collaborators in the audience.

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So I think that these voices are really important and something that we really need to listen to whenever we are talking about peace in any capacity,

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sustainable, even in a temporary sense, but especially in the country going forward.

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The reason that I say this is because these are the images that have been dominating much of our media since the 24th of February 2022.

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This is a map that was from the 24 February. And as you can see, Russia invaded Ukraine in many directions.

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Images associated with this have really been dominating our media, but they have changed over time.

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And here's a map. This is from mid-March.

302
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So it's not necessarily the most accurate one, but it shows that we have seen new developments over throughout the country in the last year and a bit.

303
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But still, we are still thinking about Ukraine kind of through this lens.

304
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Many of us in this audience probably now know a lot more about Ukraine,

305
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including at the regional level, you know, probably where Kharkiv is, maybe it caps on multiple, etc.

306
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From these maps that we're seeing in the news, we're also seeing many of these images, many of which Brooke's just painted for us.

307
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Right. These women and children, these elderly people fleeing the country on foot by bus, many of them in buildings that have been attacked.

308
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They have been these these have been very much the images of what we've seen above Ukraine in the last year.

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But also there have been other discussions dominating social media, especially Instagram and Twitter,

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due to Ukrainians creativity and using social media for their cause.

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And we've seen some of these images, we've seen memes in particular this one with the tractor in the tank,

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as well as just cities being liberated like Pettersen and the nationalist expressions.

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When these cities have been liberated, when these people are able to take back and move back to their cities and homes.

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But with this, we don't really know much about what Ukrainians think or what they're experiencing amidst the war,

315
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except for the accounts of individuals as they're leaving. But we can't.

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And as political scientists, we have very significant difficulties in trying to research the country while the war is ongoing.

317
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However, it is so important for us to know what they think in order for us to address or to help Ukraine in any capacity.

318
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So for this reason, last year, in February,

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I received the John Bell Fund Research Grant from the University for a completely different project in Ukraine.

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I had the funds and believed it was no longer ethical to do the research that I had done.

321
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And so what I did is I contacted a think tank in Ukraine who I was previously in touch with,

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and I asked them what they thought was the most necessary for Oxford researchers to do at that time.

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For them, there was no public opinion polling happening in the country and they believed it was really important to for us

324
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to know how Ukrainians saw the war but saw themselves and especially the foreign policy ambitions of the people.

325
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So with this well, I'll get back to this second as a scholar of mine or a colleague of mine,

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that if I decided to run a public opinion survey with this and also find motivating our stance was much of an.

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Medium that had been dominating the discussions about the war, often framing the war as though it started on the 24th of February.

328
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But forgetting that this was something that had been happening for nine years and for many Ukrainians, many of them in this room,

329
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we can attest to the fact that 2014 was a significant turning point for Ukrainians,

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not only from the Euromaidan in 2013, 2014, but the annexation of Crimea and then the beginning of the war in Donbas.

331
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The Ukraine, the Russia Ukraine war was an international and has been an international conflict backed by Russian separatists,

332
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by Russia and also Ukrainians. And it's very, very complex and there's many different nuances here.

333
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But it's not just been or has not just been a 12 month conflict.

334
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It's been a 12 month plus eight year conflict or now even if 13 or 14 months plus eight years.

335
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This is something that is really important for any conversation about peace

336
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and that this is not something new that has come about in the last few years,

337
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especially in the eyes of Ukrainians. This has been happening at a very local level.

338
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I worked with families of war and orphan children for five years in the country.

339
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And this the horrors, the atrocities and these stories of trauma are very entrenched in very much a new

340
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generation of people who are now have been living with conflict for going on ten years.

341
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This is really important for us to remember when we're thinking about peace. I threw up some numbers here.

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Just estimates for us to remind ourselves that there have been significant losses.

343
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This is not at all to undermine what we've seen since February,

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but just as a reminder that these losses are not new and they have been ongoing for a significant,

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significant period of time, and that there have also been many,

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many people internally displaced and also displaced within Europe since 2014 and not only since 2022.

347
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Still we've seen significant Ukrainian resistance.

348
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And these are just some very simple visual for us to remind ourselves that when Russia

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did invade in 2022 and there was a significant imbalance between Ukraine state,

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especially within its military, its combat capabilities and Russia.

351
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But with this and as we've seen, Ukraine has continued to defend itself despite the significant losses which we don't often talk about.

352
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And this is a really important reality. We do talk often about the Russian losses, that there have been significant losses on the Ukrainian side.

353
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Yes, they were.

354
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And they began this counteroffensive in February 2022 with a significant imbalance in just inequality, but yet they have continued to fight.

355
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Despite that, still, it's important for us to know what Ukrainians are thinking.

356
00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:31,770
So my colleague Karl and I, at the time we ran a public opinion survey in 11 regions of Ukraine,

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only the 11 regions we were able to get ethics approval at the time because they were only under

358
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Ukraine's control and they hadn't been directly affected within the first immediate months.

359
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And so those are the places where they're highlighted in red. These are the regions that we had were able to access.

360
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What we are doing with this think tank is trying to compare their data that they are they've been collecting from February 2021,

361
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a year before the invasion, December 2021, so three months before the invasion and then days before the invasion in 2022 in February.

362
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And so I'm going to go through just some brief graphs for you to understand this.

363
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Again, these this survey particular was conducted in May, so just about three months after Russia's invasion.

364
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So the first question that had previously been asked in February 2022, before the invasion,

365
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was, who do you think is primarily responsible for the growing threat? Because this is what it was at the time.

366
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As you can see, the numbers there are significant in Russia. But when the question was asked again in May 2022,

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we see a greater or significantly growing increase in terms of it being the leadership of Russia and also the citizens of Russia.

368
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This question is important because especially in the first few months post-invasion,

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the rhetoric within the international community was very much about NATO expansion and EU expansion,

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why that's who is guilty and that was responsible for this.

371
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Yet in the eyes of Ukrainians, it was not that. As you can see here, it was actually in their eyes, it was Russia and Russian civil society.

372
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Again, similar question asking that your interpretation of the events we see here that the war is a consequence of Russia's foreign

373
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and aggressive foreign policy position rather than the consequence of perhaps NATO expansion or Ukraine joining the EU or.

374
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:22,910
Sorry. And joining me to a similarly and I think this is a quite interesting one, the changing views and allyship.

375
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:28,590
So this is again from February 2022 before the invasion to May 2022,

376
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we see significant growing support for it at the UK, the US, the UK, the US and Poland.

377
00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:38,340
Again, this is not particularly surprising.

378
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Poland is a very obvious reason and the help that they have given them so substantially the US being a significant ally.

379
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:51,450
But at this time Boris Johnson had been the first prime minister to visit Ukraine since the invasion.

380
00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:57,149
And so. We can't really deduce whether this was actually Ukrainian spelled or because Boris

381
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Johnson had been so active in the news and he had been the first Western leader there.

382
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,760
In any case, it is interesting to see such significant growing support.

383
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And if we were and I will be running this survey again in May, we will see what's been happening in the last year.

384
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Another interesting one is just seeing the significant growth in support for Ukrainian support for joining the EU going up.

385
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:25,410
I believe it's 13 percentage points and which has gone up.

386
00:42:25,740 --> 00:42:32,070
There's very much support even though it was only in 11 regions is the same finding that we several other teams of scholars,

387
00:42:32,340 --> 00:42:38,190
including a team based at Manchester, have found with more regions included is that there has been, if anything,

388
00:42:38,190 --> 00:42:42,360
the war has actually increased Ukrainian support for joining the EU and arguably NATO's,

389
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,610
although we don't have that question in ours and this is again from that same group of scholars,

390
00:42:47,610 --> 00:42:54,180
they've also seen a growing support for democracy and support of Ukrainians believing in Ukraine becoming a democratic state.

391
00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:59,140
This is in my data, but I thought it was interesting and important to show because this is often a question that I'm asked.

392
00:42:59,180 --> 00:43:04,379
You talk about this data and Belarus is also something we often think about.

393
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:08,280
What is Belarus's position here? Again, prior to the invasion,

394
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,110
it actually made Ukrainians who suggested that there's a growing fear and that

395
00:43:13,230 --> 00:43:17,730
Belarus is playing a role in this and more so than they had prior to the invasion.

396
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:24,569
This might change now, and when I asked the same survey again, we might see a different result because Belarus hasn't been as active,

397
00:43:24,570 --> 00:43:27,840
or at least is a location in which Russia can attack Ukraine.

398
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,140
However, they still have not been neutral. They have been active in this.

399
00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:35,280
And so it's hard to say whether this will hold or whether we might see some changes here.

400
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:41,549
Finally, what I think is really important with this survey is around concessions,

401
00:43:41,550 --> 00:43:45,450
because this is also a conversation that at the time in the first three months,

402
00:43:45,450 --> 00:43:50,609
but especially now, we are still talking about what will Ukraine give up in order for peace?

403
00:43:50,610 --> 00:43:53,310
What is what is Ukraine willing to concede?

404
00:43:53,700 --> 00:44:00,090
As you can see in this survey, I mean, Ukrainian said 78% of them said they will not support any concessions.

405
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:08,790
I'm still within this question. My colleague and I felt that it was a little bit too vague and that 78% is a very strong position.

406
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:13,590
But we wanted to tease that out a little bit more to see if there was perhaps anything in that.

407
00:44:14,190 --> 00:44:17,280
So we added another and another question in there.

408
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,659
And what we can see is that the only or the only bit of movement would really

409
00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:25,860
be around humanitarian issues and specifically around humanitarian corridors.

410
00:44:26,340 --> 00:44:35,880
If you remember back in May, in April 2022, we saw a significant number of attacks on humanitarian corridors as Ukrainians are being evacuated.

411
00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:40,350
So this does align with what was happening on the ground, and I'm sure Brooks can attest to that.

412
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,750
There is significant fear and I do believe that this is where Ukrainians opposition came from.

413
00:44:46,310 --> 00:44:53,790
Nevertheless, this really prompted us to think about what else is important to Ukrainians, because if we're going to talk about concession,

414
00:44:53,790 --> 00:45:00,480
we also need to know what and how they feel about their country, their political autonomy, especially their territorial integrity.

415
00:45:01,770 --> 00:45:08,910
So this led to a second, second conjoint survey experiment led by, again, my colleague and also another colleague at Nuffield.

416
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:14,670
I'm only going to go into this very briefly, but really the message that I want to take away is in the next slide,

417
00:45:15,150 --> 00:45:17,640
as you can see, we were able to add some additional regions.

418
00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:23,910
And again, these are only regions that individuals had not or that were under Ukrainian control.

419
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:29,010
And we only surveyed individuals who had not fled or left their homes since Russia's invasion.

420
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,930
This is sort of an understanding of that's how we chose our sample.

421
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:42,719
Any of these regions, these are the initial were the initial text where we had selected Sumi some high up there.

422
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:49,830
Sumi was originally in our sample, but during data collection we actually had to drop the sample because individuals there were so

423
00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:54,450
sceptical of our enumerators on the ground thinking that they were acting on behalf of Russia.

424
00:45:54,810 --> 00:46:00,660
So if anything of this amongst many stories disarticulated are challenges of any research being conducted in Ukraine at this.

425
00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:05,430
I'm not even speaking about the ethics and potential re traumatisation that come with conducting research.

426
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,570
In any case, though, we were able to gather significant data and what we found in this through our experiment

427
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:18,570
is essentially that Ukrainians are not trading off the costs and benefits of war,

428
00:46:18,750 --> 00:46:22,950
as we've seen in every single context in which we can find in the literature,

429
00:46:23,340 --> 00:46:33,090
in that there is not a threshold of civilian or military deaths or even a nuclear strike that would deter them from continuing to fight what we found.

430
00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:41,549
And 79% of individuals said that first and foremost, for them in controlling their political system,

431
00:46:41,550 --> 00:46:43,980
controlling their government was first and foremost important.

432
00:46:44,190 --> 00:46:51,750
And the second is that the territory of their country, including Donbas and Crimea, are fundamental to them.

433
00:46:52,050 --> 00:46:55,980
And that they are willing to continue to fight until these are sustained.

434
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:59,790
And this is really important for us as political scientists, as policymakers.

435
00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:04,110
Anyone really interested in the discussion to know that if Ukrainians are not going to fight,

436
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:10,530
I'm thinking about or giving them the conversation or suggestion that they should negotiate is off the table and that we need to think

437
00:47:10,530 --> 00:47:18,330
about creative ways to work with Ukrainians if this is how definitively their position is still and I want to end on a positive note,

438
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,689
because I think that this is a conversation.

439
00:47:21,690 --> 00:47:26,310
It's not entirely bleak. And I think Brooke highlighted this, too, in talking about the local level.

440
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:32,820
We have seen significant grassroots support in a way that perhaps would be unexpected in times of war.

441
00:47:33,180 --> 00:47:39,899
This is again from my colleagues in Manchester, but we can see a significant number of individuals engaging in grassroots organisations,

442
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:45,420
donating funds, cooking, helping the military in many different ways, not just fighting on the front lines.

443
00:47:46,140 --> 00:47:53,520
This is it continues to grow in their numbers here. They say 61% in the top blue, but it's even more in the more contemporary days.

444
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:58,650
The second survey was in May 2022, and they've continued to run polls since then.

445
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:05,640
In addition, in my own work, I've been looking at you expressions of the nation and other active,

446
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,220
but perhaps different ways in which Ukrainians have been expressing their nation and fighting for Ukraine.

447
00:48:11,550 --> 00:48:16,200
These are photos of music, the express underground in bomb shelters across the country.

448
00:48:16,410 --> 00:48:21,150
We have professional violin players, for example, playing to keep the morale in the spirits up.

449
00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:28,620
You know, trumpeters, we also see this are incredible art being painted on to the sides of the bomb shelters.

450
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,969
The one on the left is by children in Ternium. As you can see through the colours,

451
00:48:32,970 --> 00:48:39,750
there is a sense of nationalism as expressions to support and fight for your nation, even perhaps in a different way.

452
00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:46,350
Finally, these are just another example, including a famous Ukrainian musician who's travelled across the country.

453
00:48:46,350 --> 00:48:49,620
This is in Kharkiv singing and really boosting the morale of citizens.

454
00:48:49,950 --> 00:48:53,640
So this reminds us that there is much more happening than those images I showed you at the beginning.

455
00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:59,250
And with that, I just want to leave us sort of with four final questions that perhaps can stimulate discussion later.

456
00:49:00,060 --> 00:49:03,900
One, you know, how do we account for Ukraine is agency. We're talking about the war.

457
00:49:04,410 --> 00:49:10,060
As you can tell. I believe this is fundamental to how do we talk about Ukrainians, agency or agency.

458
00:49:10,170 --> 00:49:14,460
Talking about peace because Ukrainians need to be elevated in these discussions as well.

459
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:22,050
Three What does peace look like for Ukrainians when Russia will be and is always going to be Ukraine's neighbour?

460
00:49:22,110 --> 00:49:25,440
How do we understand that and have Ukrainians understand that fundamentally?

461
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,140
And finally, keeping Ukrainians views in mind? What does support for Ukraine actually look like?

462
00:49:31,530 --> 00:49:34,770
With that, I thank you for your time and hope we can continue this conversation later.

463
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,989
Thank you so much. Can we take one question and could ask the next speaker to come on up, though?

464
00:49:48,990 --> 00:49:54,770
We're just answering that. If there is one thing I was watching the.

465
00:50:01,090 --> 00:50:11,860
Question is if that's the view of ordinary Iranians, how do they see a peaceful future?

466
00:50:12,370 --> 00:50:22,330
Is that a defeat of Russia or is this going to be a question that many Iranians in this room, I think, that are better able to speak on this?

467
00:50:22,660 --> 00:50:27,850
I'm sorry. I'm so used to teaching where I walk around the think a you can my student.

468
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:32,920
I think there are several Ukrainians in this room I think are probably in a more appropriate position to speak.

469
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:39,640
However, I was on a panel yesterday with two Ukrainians, one being an academic and one being a journalist who's been on the front lines.

470
00:50:40,270 --> 00:50:42,309
And we talked about this question of what is winning,

471
00:50:42,310 --> 00:50:52,660
what is peace actually look like for them fundamentally is pushing Russia back to the 2000 or so to the February 24 borders at least.

472
00:50:53,020 --> 00:50:57,220
And beyond that, pushing back to the 2014 borders would be ideal.

473
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:03,549
But they said, in their view, they would be willing to accept at least the return of everything else ever done by us.

474
00:51:03,550 --> 00:51:10,540
And then Donbas could be a different conversation and at least the academic who has come from Ukraine to Oxford just for this conference,

475
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,569
he said that in his view, there will need to be some other discussion around the future of Donbass in particular,

476
00:51:16,570 --> 00:51:20,260
and that it is separate from the larger conversation about the future of Ukraine.

477
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:31,030
I think. Yeah.

478
00:51:32,750 --> 00:51:37,430
They're just world changing. The part with our next speaker is a Ukrainian voice.

479
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:45,350
Right. Yeah, that's another book that is. And then I see you in the school of Anthropology doing a lot of work.

480
00:51:46,940 --> 00:51:56,690
But before coming to it, she was a journalist reporting on all this various aspects.

481
00:51:57,990 --> 00:52:01,470
Very excited to hear what you have to say.

482
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:12,740
Okay. Thank you. Okay.

483
00:52:12,750 --> 00:52:15,780
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you, everyone for being here.

484
00:52:15,790 --> 00:52:26,609
So my name is Yaroslav, a booster and indeed I, I had a word for a couple of years in Ukrainian media and NGO Sector four before coming to Oxford.

485
00:52:26,610 --> 00:52:37,020
I've been working in Brussels for almost half a year covering agrifood policy and before that I was part of elite sport in team system,

486
00:52:37,050 --> 00:52:41,010
which was one of the key investigative journalism media in Ukraine.

487
00:52:41,310 --> 00:52:42,120
So therefore,

488
00:52:42,510 --> 00:52:53,729
I think it would be fair to begin with saying that the position I will talk about work of media during the Russian-Ukrainian war would be the one of

489
00:52:53,730 --> 00:53:03,230
someone who I knew would be the one of someone who actually was part of Ukrainian newsroom with the beginning of the full scale Russian invasion.

490
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:16,770
And yeah, and basically I think that I will begin with outlining the points of my speech, the first Ukrainian journalism and who are they?

491
00:53:16,770 --> 00:53:20,490
Who are those people who are coming, who are working actually in Ukraine,

492
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:27,030
having more Ukrainian international journalists than a full scale Russian invasion through different lenses?

493
00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:32,549
And this is like partly what a previous article was touching in her in her talks,

494
00:53:32,550 --> 00:53:37,500
like who speaks on behalf of who, who has the agency to talk on behalf of Ukraine?

495
00:53:37,740 --> 00:53:46,110
And actually, do Ukrainian journalists have the same scale of legitimacy talking about conflict happening within their country,

496
00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:53,160
as do international media, talking about that conflict and a couple of lessons to learn and points to

497
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,480
think about again as a person who work in Ukrainian and international media.

498
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:00,959
Yeah. Talking today. Okay.

499
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:10,230
So first of all, one of the things that was very present in Ukrainian media sphere was like one this is a question I often get like,

500
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:15,180
were you expecting the beginning of the full scale invasion to happen to February 24th?

501
00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:22,139
While the short answer would perhaps be no. And before that, as a as a part of our newsroom,

502
00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:30,330
we were doing a number of trainings actually on first aid on and I remember that it was like partly and a bit.

503
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:34,350
Yeah, that we're actually love jokes about like wearing bullet-proof vests.

504
00:54:34,350 --> 00:54:41,180
And I can't say that we actually did perceive what was about to happen in, you know,

505
00:54:41,250 --> 00:54:46,979
like as a serious thought because before that there were a couple of media reports saying that,

506
00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:50,910
yeah, Russia's going to invade Ukraine like in December, then like later than in January.

507
00:54:51,420 --> 00:54:57,389
And so it was partly like jokes, but mainly made mainly jokes as like you can't leave in a constant stress.

508
00:54:57,390 --> 00:55:03,240
So we were preparing but not it was not something that we were expecting.

509
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:09,600
So at the beginning of OC, at the beginning of the full scale Russian invasion,

510
00:55:09,870 --> 00:55:13,169
what was happening is actually that there were a lot of journalists who had

511
00:55:13,170 --> 00:55:18,299
a very different expertise and very different spheres they were working at.

512
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:27,600
So you had like in any other country, you had also war work correspondents who were covering war for the last like 8 hours before,

513
00:55:27,780 --> 00:55:33,629
but it was not the majority of journalists. So it was not like professionals, trained professionals who knew how to do all this thing,

514
00:55:33,630 --> 00:55:41,250
who knew how to wear all this like bullet-proof vests, who knew all the rules and regulations about working with army and with press officers?

515
00:55:41,490 --> 00:55:48,870
Actually, yeah, like people who would work as press officers, it was not existent because.

516
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,850
Yeah, because it was just just the journalistic field is functions any other country.

517
00:55:54,540 --> 00:56:03,689
So again, we have like investigative journalists, like the media when I worked where like some of these journalists did have experience covering war.

518
00:56:03,690 --> 00:56:10,829
But mainly, again, as I say, it was not like all that constituted their profession.

519
00:56:10,830 --> 00:56:19,979
And what we had to face was basically overnight having a conversation on the whole at the general meeting of the whole newsroom actually talking,

520
00:56:19,980 --> 00:56:21,330
okay, guys, what are we going to do now?

521
00:56:21,330 --> 00:56:30,840
So as investigative media, we used to cover Bandera papers, Panama Papers, revealing crimes of top Ukrainian politicians.

522
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,590
And here we have the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine.

523
00:56:34,590 --> 00:56:38,610
And what are we going to do now? So what's our position now? We're not war reporters.

524
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:47,460
This is not what we can do. And well, as Anna began that she's she's the chief editor of Please for information one her interviews.

525
00:56:48,060 --> 00:56:52,230
You are never ready. You never register that your world can be destroyed in some stupid way.

526
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:57,030
And this is this is true. So basically, what we're not preparing for doing any of these things.

527
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:06,120
And during that night, we actually switched to two directions of our war work.

528
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:10,350
So one of them was covering war. We actually had a couple of people who put on old.

529
00:57:10,410 --> 00:57:20,190
It's like Vasco had like a bit more experience in in having more before who want to actually report on the places in Kiev where,

530
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:27,630
where there were first like, um, strikes, rocket strikes.

531
00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:30,299
And this was like one of the possible directions.

532
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:38,760
The second one was actually was doing what we could do using osint methods to identify Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine.

533
00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:45,059
So the thing is that many of these people, they have like social media and just using, again, like offline methods,

534
00:57:45,060 --> 00:57:54,210
like open sources, you can you can identify these people for further using of this information within international courts.

535
00:57:54,690 --> 00:57:59,909
So and what was happening then, which was quite unprecedented for Ukrainian media,

536
00:57:59,910 --> 00:58:04,680
that system was given trainings to the prosecutor's office to actually how to use

537
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,190
this methods to identify Russian soldiers fighting on the territory of Ukraine.

538
00:58:10,170 --> 00:58:20,249
Then again, like part of the part of the journalistic sphere, switched to countering Russian propaganda because it was coming up as like insanely.

539
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:26,309
And this is actually interesting because in Ukraine many people understand Russian.

540
00:58:26,310 --> 00:58:29,340
And when you actually face it and when you actually have to face it everyday,

541
00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:35,840
it's like you get you have to deal with Russian propaganda in some regions of Ukraine where it's like stronger against some Russian speaking region,

542
00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:40,560
more more Russian speaking regions in Ukraine. And this all came together.

543
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:49,050
And I would say that at the beginning it was just basically quite a mess in the sense that we were trying to understand how to figure,

544
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,520
like how how to work, how to move on and with.

545
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:06,909
As things for developing. I would say that multimedia they got their niches within covering this this this for so for example

546
00:59:06,910 --> 00:59:12,819
one of the one of the media projects you CRANOR Instead of doing our reports from actually talking

547
00:59:12,820 --> 00:59:18,160
about Ukrainian traditions Ukrainian culture that was like mainly in focus this which more to again

548
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:25,510
like counter counter disinformation projects and explaining more about what is happening in Ukraine,

549
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:32,260
why it is happening, like why we are not ready to give up, why some Russian narratives should just like go away.

550
00:59:33,730 --> 00:59:40,100
And of course, projects like Stop Fake, which is like one of the key hub, basically.

551
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:45,280
Yes. Just from the from the names like Fakes Project is also functioning in Ukraine

552
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:50,710
and has been on for years now and they just kept on like with their work.

553
00:59:51,370 --> 00:59:54,730
So this is like another another like direction in which things were moving.

554
00:59:56,050 --> 01:00:04,450
Also, we, we have this quite impressive thing which was like one channel 24 was for seven like news coverage,

555
01:00:05,050 --> 01:00:12,540
which basically were a couple of t TV channels, interestingly, because they were owned by different oligarchs and mainly Ukrainian media.

556
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,270
TV media there are not their main private.

557
01:00:16,270 --> 01:00:17,950
So we haven't this has been a broadcaster.

558
01:00:17,950 --> 01:00:27,970
A broadcaster which is like, yeah, public broadcaster, but otherwise they came all together and they started covering war,

559
01:00:28,780 --> 01:00:35,740
which is like another in a sense Ukrainian as the way it is perceived in Ukraine.

560
01:00:36,490 --> 01:00:43,780
When a said quite well, it's like a part of Ukrainian propaganda that is happening and it's also ruled by government.

561
01:00:43,780 --> 01:00:53,650
So I mean, it's like another voice that actually emerged within this news coverage and this is not the direction in which things went moving.

562
01:00:55,990 --> 01:01:04,360
What was interesting was when international journalists actually started coming to Ukraine and there were cases when,

563
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:12,249
for instance, my colleague, one colleagues went to the places where the rocket has just like stroke in the residential building.

564
01:01:12,250 --> 01:01:17,110
So it's a total mess. You see people who just lost their homes were just lost their families.

565
01:01:17,620 --> 01:01:21,790
They're scared. They're like over there. And it's it's a shock.

566
01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:25,870
And then you see a bunch of international journalists who actually come to the

567
01:01:25,870 --> 01:01:30,730
spot and they like apparently this is not their first time covering these things.

568
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:41,050
They know each other quite well and they are like in a very friendly way, just chatting, like walking around just as doing, doing their job,

569
01:01:41,350 --> 01:01:44,350
which is actually very different from what it is for Ukrainians because it

570
01:01:44,350 --> 01:01:48,340
also involves some level of personal attachment to things that you will see.

571
01:01:48,730 --> 01:01:56,620
And there were quite a lot of like tension connected to that in the beginning because while again you see people coming through very personal stories,

572
01:01:56,630 --> 01:02:01,180
very personal trauma, and then at the same time, you just see people working there, which is also fair.

573
01:02:01,180 --> 01:02:10,870
But yes, and it's actually quite interesting the the point that I face have to face as as a journalist working in Brussels newsroom.

574
01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:15,939
So there was one opinion piece that they let me write.

575
01:02:15,940 --> 01:02:21,309
It was 500 words basically discussing why do ossification in Ukraine is not that straightforward.

576
01:02:21,310 --> 01:02:27,040
So why it is not just let's prohibit everything Russian or in Russian like Russian, like written in Russian language.

577
01:02:27,310 --> 01:02:32,080
So this is not just like such a such a straightforward process as sometimes it is depicted in media.

578
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:40,239
And it was quite interesting because there were other journalists who were covering Ukraine and their articles were reviewed by,

579
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:45,070
for instance, one, one editor like them, their department, and another like chief editor.

580
01:02:46,210 --> 01:02:55,300
My opinion piece for five 500 words as a Ukrainian talking on behalf of Ukraine about Ukraine was reviewed by five different editors,

581
01:02:55,300 --> 01:03:00,850
including a chief editor. And it was quite striking for me because I could understand why.

582
01:03:00,850 --> 01:03:07,179
But actually, as they explained to me, while we expect from you to be more emotional, we expected from you condemnation.

583
01:03:07,180 --> 01:03:13,540
We can't expect from you to be objective. Talking about your country and talking about anything is happening in your country.

584
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:19,180
Even though you are here, you are here in Brussels. You are reporting on many different issues.

585
01:03:19,180 --> 01:03:22,750
We've seen you in work, but we still do not quite trust you in this respect.

586
01:03:23,770 --> 01:03:31,149
So this is something that remained like, you know, it was not said straightforwardly, but I could understand, I could get it.

587
01:03:31,150 --> 01:03:34,450
And this was just sounding like this was in the air.

588
01:03:34,780 --> 01:03:43,630
And this is like another piece of reality that we had to face, which is basically, are you as a Ukrainian, are able to talk on behalf of Ukraine?

589
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,250
Will you be emotional or will you be actually objective and following all the journalistic standards?

590
01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:55,380
And I was actually very curious about to compare like how Ukrainian and in.

591
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,669
National media. We're covering some of the key events.

592
01:03:58,670 --> 01:04:04,219
And within my previous Masters Masters degree, I made a smaller content analysis.

593
01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:07,340
So basically it was a comparison of a one week coverage.

594
01:04:07,340 --> 01:04:15,379
It was of BBC and 6 p.m. since the discovery of Russian war crimes in Russia.

595
01:04:15,380 --> 01:04:20,660
And actually, surprisingly, yes, the approach to visuals was different.

596
01:04:20,660 --> 01:04:30,889
So BBC pictures were mainly like depicting are they destruction or they were hiding like the bodies while Ukrainian media that were quite open.

597
01:04:30,890 --> 01:04:33,980
So sometimes it was like blurred bodies lying on the streets.

598
01:04:35,030 --> 01:04:43,639
But what was actually interesting that BBC reports using words like atrocities,

599
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:48,800
using emotional, emotional evaluation of the events that were more common.

600
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:55,340
So Ukrainian Ukrainian suspended use for actually seeking more two facts.

601
01:04:55,610 --> 01:05:05,239
If it was not a force like a specific town or like which is reports, which is it sort of includes some level of like personal, personal perspective.

602
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,910
But yeah, that was that was something very interesting for me.

603
01:05:08,090 --> 01:05:18,440
And also what was quite striking that if you read Ukrainian reports, it's mainly like so here is the story of this person and we trusted.

604
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:27,080
But in BBC reports there were such phrases like we couldn't verify this story from three independent sources.

605
01:05:27,260 --> 01:05:35,300
And the story they're talking about, for instance, is a story of a boy who saw his dad being shot on the street of a butcher.

606
01:05:35,660 --> 01:05:45,830
So this leads actually to one of one of the other questions like, are the BBC standards appropriate in the fog of war?

607
01:05:45,830 --> 01:05:48,799
Or like our journalistic standards in war coverage,

608
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:58,640
the same as they should be in as as they are in peace coverage and should should it be functioning in the same way?

609
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,150
And what positions should journalists take?

610
01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:08,660
If you have one side, which is obviously perpetrator and another side which is which is a victim,

611
01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:15,860
can we give the equal amount of time, an equal amount of space to both of them?

612
01:06:16,220 --> 01:06:17,810
Can we can we just, like,

613
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:25,910
give it in the way that we would give like any other report and just try to balance thoughts or actually we have to provide more context.

614
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:38,180
Another thing that I well actually wanted to touch partly was how how us and them were actually shaped within this this environment,

615
01:06:38,180 --> 01:06:47,300
because this is this is the picture that was, for instance, printed in like Financial Times depicting Ukrainian refugees.

616
01:06:47,690 --> 01:06:50,659
And this is actually another picture from the same railway station.

617
01:06:50,660 --> 01:06:58,340
And you could see the difference between them, like actually the way people frame like this perception of who Ukrainians are.

618
01:06:58,730 --> 01:07:05,110
And other interesting thing were some of the some of the memories of my friends who said that, yeah,

619
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:11,480
we were in the queue in the border and there was a huge line of cars with the Ukrainians actually trying to cross the border.

620
01:07:11,630 --> 01:07:16,910
And there was one one car with some people from Afghanistan, like friends of friends,

621
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:24,200
and they said that there was crew like there was a crew from some some international big international media was the beginning.

622
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,709
So and so you have imagine like 20 cars,

623
01:07:27,710 --> 01:07:39,800
let's say like 100 cars on the border and one car with was like people from a different like ethnic background and then guess which car they pick.

624
01:07:40,070 --> 01:07:54,020
So this is actually quite surprising in well, in how how this all was happening I could say that I'm talking from now the situation has changed.

625
01:07:54,020 --> 01:07:58,549
So basically Ukrainian and Ukrainian journalists and Ukrainian opinion leaders,

626
01:07:58,550 --> 01:08:08,160
they actually got some platforms like from one of Ukraine famous Ukrainian writers, Anton Chekhov.

627
01:08:08,660 --> 01:08:11,540
He got an opinion piece in The New York Times.

628
01:08:11,580 --> 01:08:21,440
You get you get this this platforms that actually where actually Ukrainians can can say how they see things.

629
01:08:21,440 --> 01:08:29,209
But at the same time, this is something that we also have and we can't just like escape this questions and I feel like this

630
01:08:29,210 --> 01:08:34,070
questions are actually to ask also in regard to other conflicts happening all around the world,

631
01:08:34,070 --> 01:08:43,100
not just Ukraine like who talks on behalf of who and who decides like how to do big things and how things are depicted in general.

632
01:08:44,660 --> 01:08:55,190
Okay. And one more thing that how also we have to take into account so Russia media the thing is that the perception of.

633
01:08:55,260 --> 01:09:01,230
Russian media in international sphere and the forces in international journalism and the

634
01:09:01,440 --> 01:09:05,700
Ukrainian journalism is quite different because what is happening in Ukraine is like,

635
01:09:05,970 --> 01:09:15,510
again, as I said, there is this huge language barrier which makes us like to understand like what Russian propaganda propagandist messages are.

636
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:23,750
And we've also had a number of projects connected to revealing of Russian propaganda,

637
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:27,660
disinformation in Ukrainian media functioning for all all of these years.

638
01:09:28,710 --> 01:09:39,420
But actually so so it's quite surprising that it's striking like the reaction in two different environments to things like this is more tangible.

639
01:09:39,480 --> 01:09:47,580
Maybe you remember like she she's been Russian journalist for ages on one of the key Russian top channels.

640
01:09:47,580 --> 01:09:52,350
And during one of the live translations, she just one.

641
01:09:52,350 --> 01:09:55,559
There was this poster No War.

642
01:09:55,560 --> 01:10:03,060
And she said that, yes, I've been working for so many years translating messages of Russian propaganda, but now I've changed.

643
01:10:03,660 --> 01:10:10,229
And it was quite striking, like the reaction of the international community and Ukrainian community,

644
01:10:10,230 --> 01:10:14,280
because international community was like, yes, this is amazing.

645
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:21,420
She made such a great claim. And and maybe indeed like it was it was it was huge like Chechen vote.

646
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:23,520
But what is happening in Russian media.

647
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:31,530
But on the other hand, Ukrainian mostly like Ukrainian, especially Ukrainian journalists, they took a very sceptical position saying that,

648
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:37,860
oh wait, but she's been working on Russian propaganda, this channel for like so many years, and now it is happening.

649
01:10:37,860 --> 01:10:42,720
So this person has been actually part of this machine that has led to the situations that we have now.

650
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:56,400
And now, like she just goes, there was like this poster and gets a position in one of one of the German media and gets an offer of asylum in Europe.

651
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,930
And and she gets to report on events actually happening in Ukraine.

652
01:11:01,140 --> 01:11:06,600
And she comes there as international correspondent, like, how come can we can we deal with that?

653
01:11:08,370 --> 01:11:19,469
So there is another question that sometimes is is asked about Russian media and should we actually listen to what Russian media have to say?

654
01:11:19,470 --> 01:11:29,640
And should Russia Russia today, which is again the question Russian channel that is present in many countries, should it be back?

655
01:11:30,180 --> 01:11:34,079
Should or should we actually make it return?

656
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:40,200
And the big question is, like, again, when we get to talk about disinformation and manipulation,

657
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:47,520
to which extent is general public trying to to deal with this machine that has been on for years?

658
01:11:47,850 --> 01:11:55,580
And to which extent will the general public be able to distinguish these messages if if they're not given that context,

659
01:11:55,590 --> 01:12:01,860
if they're just basically exposed because this instrument of propaganda and again,

660
01:12:01,860 --> 01:12:09,090
like another question that perhaps should be raised about accountability of Russian journalists, about the whole thing that is happening.

661
01:12:09,390 --> 01:12:21,240
And the question is, again, it was phrased today as well about peace and but peace with which actually incorporates them being accountable,

662
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,469
accountable for what they were doing and what they have been reporting for.

663
01:12:25,470 --> 01:12:38,460
Like here is again, like with case of Marina. Yeah, I think that is all from for me with with all these questions I'll be happy to discuss afterwards.

664
01:12:39,210 --> 01:12:57,990
Yep. Thank you very much. Silver.

665
01:12:58,190 --> 01:13:02,659
Thank you very much indeed. As time has slipped a little bit,

666
01:13:02,660 --> 01:13:21,090
we may have to move the order a little bit because I think that Federica is coming in to get into the real like this.

667
01:13:26,710 --> 01:13:31,090
That's okay. This is just for the record.

668
01:13:33,170 --> 01:13:37,960
You want the email from him? Well, you're why wanted.

669
01:13:37,990 --> 01:14:08,040
How do we get into this? I'm not sure. I just opened. So just trying to connect with New York and get to Federica.

670
01:14:08,750 --> 01:14:18,290
Sandra, who is normally at the Blavatnik School here and is deputy director of Eli Institute for Ethics in a World of Conflict.

671
01:14:19,310 --> 01:14:32,959
And we hope that she will be ready to do her input now on the international crimes going on in Ukraine.

672
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:36,350
Who can be held accountable and how?

673
01:14:40,470 --> 01:14:45,910
Federico. Hello. I know.

674
01:14:46,150 --> 01:14:51,010
I think we have to. Right.

675
01:14:51,370 --> 01:14:58,470
Can every can everybody here I mean, one thing. Sorry, Fredricka.

676
01:14:58,890 --> 01:15:15,810
We're going to put you on now as soon as you're ready. And we just need to make sure that the sound is just coming from my laptop into the auditorium.

677
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:22,500
Can you hear me? You can try to let me talk to that.

678
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:48,260
Just. Just bear with us for a moment. Okay.

679
01:15:48,660 --> 01:15:51,780
Can you just do a count? One, two, three, four. No.

680
01:15:54,450 --> 01:15:57,900
One, two, three, four. Can anybody hear that?

681
01:15:58,950 --> 01:16:05,260
How much of your people are saying they can? There may be a better way to do it, but, um.

682
01:16:05,730 --> 01:16:09,000
Let's do it like this for now. We've got the technician coming.

683
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,330
But let me try one more thing.

684
01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:29,350
Okay, do. Sorry.

685
01:16:29,660 --> 01:16:33,520
Don't know. This isn't a cable.

686
01:16:35,570 --> 01:16:40,580
Cable should go through the door.

687
01:16:40,830 --> 01:16:48,160
So that sort of. Okay, Fredricka, can you can you try starting now?

688
01:16:48,500 --> 01:16:52,160
I'm just introduced. You want to come in here?

689
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:58,280
Okay. Can you hear me? Are we on?

690
01:17:00,020 --> 01:17:06,830
You should be okay. It is very difficult for me to tell because I don't have eyes on the room.

691
01:17:07,190 --> 01:17:11,620
So I just need your cue in terms of where to start. Okay.

692
01:17:11,630 --> 01:17:15,000
Can you start now? As soon as you're ready. All right. Fantastic.

693
01:17:15,140 --> 01:17:20,380
Thank you. And thank you to this piece for inviting me to speak.

694
01:17:22,860 --> 01:17:27,090
I'm from Ukraine. I heard it's disturbing.

695
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:36,320
Your son. I'm not quite sure what caused it, but carry on.

696
01:17:37,190 --> 01:17:40,660
All right. And I'm sorry.

697
01:17:40,670 --> 01:17:49,400
I was just saying I'm sorry that I cannot be there in person because it's been a full programme and I'm sure three interesting discussion,

698
01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:55,970
but I'm nevertheless grateful of the opportunity to be able to participate and to say discussion.

699
01:17:56,690 --> 01:18:05,210
And I want to you and. Something you deserve.

700
01:18:06,690 --> 01:18:09,740
Right. Okay. Carry on.

701
01:18:10,340 --> 01:18:18,139
To provide an overview of the landscape and prospects for and accountability for international

702
01:18:18,140 --> 01:18:23,480
crimes that are taking place in Ukraine as a result of Russia's military aggression.

703
01:18:24,020 --> 01:18:30,920
And the reason why I want to focus on the prospects for accountability is precisely because this is something that

704
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:38,330
Ukraine itself has put front and centre as part of its whole system of response to the defence of its sovereignty,

705
01:18:38,420 --> 01:18:46,249
independence and territorial integrity. And when we speak of international crimes, generally speaking, of international law violations,

706
01:18:46,250 --> 01:18:53,240
that by your skill or gravity are so atrocious as to be considered crimes against the international community as a whole.

707
01:18:53,720 --> 01:19:01,940
And these are most crimes, crimes against humanity, the crime of genocide and the crime of aggression, all of which seem at stake in Ukraine.

708
01:19:02,660 --> 01:19:08,180
For over a year now, we've been watching in horror and see, frankly,

709
01:19:08,180 --> 01:19:13,550
as Russian forces poured over Ukrainian borders, rain missiles on Ukrainian cities,

710
01:19:13,850 --> 01:19:21,800
occupied, plundered and brutalised civilians in what is one of the most clear cut case of aggression in recent history.

711
01:19:22,670 --> 01:19:24,780
In international law. The crime of aggression.

712
01:19:24,830 --> 01:19:32,420
Fundamentally, the large scale and unprovoked use of military force against territorial integrity and political independence of another state,

713
01:19:33,110 --> 01:19:35,659
which, in the case of Russia's aggression against Ukraine,

714
01:19:35,660 --> 01:19:45,410
actually began already in 2014 with the economic station of Crimea and also the February 22 full scale invasion,

715
01:19:45,770 --> 01:19:50,750
which was initiated with the overt intent to capture more of Ukraine's territory

716
01:19:50,930 --> 01:19:54,950
and to topple its elected government certainly took matters to a new level.

717
01:19:56,090 --> 01:20:00,930
And in the years since then, large scale combat operations have been taking place.

718
01:20:00,950 --> 01:20:07,129
Ukraine has managed to reverse 54% of Russia's initial real gains, though, of course,

719
01:20:07,130 --> 01:20:12,860
Russian forces, as we know, remain under immense pressure in the southern parts of the country.

720
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:20,010
And the over the course of this year, the human toll of this war, as in Serbia,

721
01:20:20,030 --> 01:20:24,980
has been enormous, and the loss of life has been atrocious and inexcusable,

722
01:20:25,430 --> 01:20:33,980
with some 130,000 Ukrainians estimated to have paid the ultimate price to defend for their country the right to self-determination,

723
01:20:34,250 --> 01:20:41,030
and as many and twice as many Russians as made it to appear as part of their legal invasion.

724
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:43,999
And in the course of this year, also,

725
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:51,560
countless atrocities have been committed and documented that rise to the levels of war crimes and crimes against humanity,

726
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:55,580
if not essentially genocide with Ukrainian authorities.

727
01:20:55,580 --> 01:21:02,810
I mean, documented at least 70,000 between 65,070 thousand war crimes incident and countless more

728
01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:08,510
having been documented and remaining under investigation by variety of international bodies.

729
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,589
Only days after the full scale invasion begun, for example,

730
01:21:12,590 --> 01:21:18,319
Ukraine sued the Russian state for violations of the UN Genocide Convention and

731
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:22,070
other key human rights treaties before the UN International Court of Justice.

732
01:21:22,070 --> 01:21:30,470
In an attempt to get the international judicial body to finally and officially review part of Russia's initial casus belli.

733
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:37,760
But one of the many justifications adding to it gave for meeting Ukraine, which it had already deployed in Crimea effectively.

734
01:21:37,970 --> 01:21:44,870
And that is a baseless claim that Ukraine was committing genocide against ethnic Russians in Eastern Oblast,

735
01:21:44,870 --> 01:21:47,660
forcing Russia into a humanitarian intervention,

736
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:56,600
and of course, using a variety of other legal instruments, such as the peace resolution, to circumvent Russia's veto in the Security Council.

737
01:21:56,810 --> 01:22:03,889
Ukraine also asked the judge of the UN General Assembly to make the determination that Russia's and Russia's conduct amounted

738
01:22:03,890 --> 01:22:10,910
to international aggression and that Ukraine is entitled to war reparations and to justice for all victims of the war.

739
01:22:12,050 --> 01:22:15,260
At the request of Ukraine and the United Nations,

740
01:22:15,260 --> 01:22:22,219
the European Union and the OSCE also all dispatched investigative teams focusing on upholding both state

741
01:22:22,220 --> 01:22:27,800
and criminal liability for violations of the laws of war committed by all parties as part of the conflict.

742
01:22:28,310 --> 01:22:35,780
And Ukrainian authorities are preparing to prosecute domestically many of the 70,000 war crimes incident that they documented,

743
01:22:36,110 --> 01:22:39,080
including allegations against their own armed forces,

744
01:22:39,410 --> 01:22:44,720
which frankly are but a drop in the bucket in the near the war crimes Russian forces are committing,

745
01:22:45,500 --> 01:22:48,410
but not investigating or prosecuting and punishing.

746
01:22:49,850 --> 01:22:55,400
The International Criminal Court is also stepped in to investigate and prosecute international crimes in Ukraine.

747
01:22:55,870 --> 01:23:01,940
And and this is because although Ukraine is not yet a state party to the International Criminal Court, its government.

748
01:23:02,370 --> 01:23:08,670
The request to subject the court's jurisdiction dating back to 2013 has to include

749
01:23:09,090 --> 01:23:14,130
high state and potential crimes arising from the illegal annexation of Crimea.

750
01:23:14,820 --> 01:23:20,250
In a move that was later backed by 43 member states, the International Criminal Court,

751
01:23:20,250 --> 01:23:24,840
and then also referred the situation for investigation to the ICC.

752
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:35,400
And in fact, the ICC swiftly intervened to the point investigators opening a field offices in Ukraine and in an unprecedented move.

753
01:23:35,610 --> 01:23:45,659
This has already resulted in the court essentially issuing arrest warrants against Russian President Vladimir Putin himself and his children,

754
01:23:45,660 --> 01:23:46,500
rights commissioner,

755
01:23:47,110 --> 01:23:57,510
global war crimes relating to the illegal liquidation and forced adoption of keeping in children from Russian occupied territories in Eastern Ukraine.

756
01:23:58,050 --> 01:24:04,379
And a world that is in itself extraordinary because it's the first time that an arrest warrant is

757
01:24:04,380 --> 01:24:09,450
issued against a sitting head of state while a permanent member of the Security Council nonetheless,

758
01:24:09,660 --> 01:24:13,889
which does not, according to the court, and we will return to this in a minute,

759
01:24:13,890 --> 01:24:26,130
because there is a question as to whether the Russian president in particular might be entitled to immunities and what return to this and before.

760
01:24:27,510 --> 01:24:31,950
So I, I guess what I want to say at this point is that Ukraine is focussed on pursuing

761
01:24:31,950 --> 01:24:36,180
legal avenues as reenergize many international in the international community,

762
01:24:36,750 --> 01:24:45,000
particularly those that see the enforcement of fundamental rules of international law as such as protections enshrined in the Geneva Convention.

763
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:50,130
And of course, the provision against aggression as key to restoring global peace and security.

764
01:24:50,940 --> 01:24:59,129
And Ukraine's partners in Europe and in the United States in particular, see this as a historical juncture,

765
01:24:59,130 --> 01:25:05,610
potentially a second Nuremberg moment in reference to the trials set up by the Allies at the end of World War Two,

766
01:25:05,610 --> 01:25:09,530
which became, of course, foundational as we all to the Moscow, of course.

767
01:25:10,410 --> 01:25:15,180
However, a gaping hole exists in this judicial accountability landscape,

768
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:23,340
and that is because while a variety of domestic and international criminals will be able to sit in judgement over war crimes,

769
01:25:23,340 --> 01:25:29,460
crimes against humanity and genocide and crimes arising as a result of the war,

770
01:25:29,790 --> 01:25:38,220
there is no court today that can exercise jurisdiction over the war itself or the crime of aggression, as it's known in international law.

771
01:25:38,670 --> 01:25:46,229
The ICC does not have jurisdiction over aggression in Ukraine and that is because essentially under the Rome Statute,

772
01:25:46,230 --> 01:25:50,640
which is a legislative framework that regulates the operation of the court,

773
01:25:52,740 --> 01:26:00,120
the crime of aggression was stopped, is subject to a separate jurisdictional regime that is different from war crimes,

774
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:08,189
crimes against humanity and genocide. So even though the ICC prosecutor can investigate and prosecute at this moment, these three other crimes,

775
01:26:08,190 --> 01:26:12,060
the crime of aggression in Ukraine, specifically, it falls outside of its jurisdiction.

776
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,110
And of course, there's procedures to amend the Rome Statute.

777
01:26:16,590 --> 01:26:26,700
But these take time and are not likely to be successful, at least at this stage.

778
01:26:27,420 --> 01:26:33,270
So at the moment, there is no international tribunal that can be a kind of Russia.

779
01:26:33,540 --> 01:26:40,440
And of course, in Ukraine, the Ukrainian authorities could not try.

780
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:50,069
Russia needed to shut before its domestic courts because there is a principle of international law that such weak grounds immunity

781
01:26:50,070 --> 01:26:56,760
to government officials before the domestic courts of other countries in order to allow them to carry out their state functions.

782
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:00,600
The crime of aggression is particularly complicated from this perspective,

783
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:09,270
precisely because its definition international law as a leadership requirement, because the crime of aggression being committed by those first of all,

784
01:27:09,270 --> 01:27:14,430
it's always an official state act and the crimes can be committed by private citizens,

785
01:27:14,770 --> 01:27:20,099
but the Russian can only be committed as an official state act by those within the state apparatus that

786
01:27:20,100 --> 01:27:25,950
essentially are in a position to direct the military and political force of the state against another state.

787
01:27:26,940 --> 01:27:32,760
So, you know, liability fundamentally criminal liability for war, for aggression goes all the way to the top.

788
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:44,700
And this includes, of course, the Russian president and prime minister, as well as then minister of foreign affairs, minister of defence.

789
01:27:45,060 --> 01:27:52,980
And some of these officials, particularly the Prime Minister, President and the Foreign Minister,

790
01:27:53,370 --> 01:28:01,830
are entitled to immunity under international law, so they cannot be tried in Ukraine's domestic court, which is why the government of Ukraine is.

791
01:28:03,590 --> 01:28:09,470
A special aggression tribunal that is now being debated because essentially

792
01:28:11,090 --> 01:28:18,250
such liabilities arise that communities would not attach to the jurisdiction,

793
01:28:18,260 --> 01:28:23,030
essentially the international courts ability to exercise jurisdiction over these individuals.

794
01:28:23,300 --> 01:28:32,300
So right now, the conversation is because I see here there is a few proposals that have been put on the table that have been discussed.

795
01:28:32,690 --> 01:28:43,790
One of them is a proposal for the Constitution of a special tribunal through the United Nations and was brought to a UN General Assembly resolution.

796
01:28:44,150 --> 01:28:46,610
And as a consequence of that,

797
01:28:46,610 --> 01:28:52,820
essentially the United Nations entering into a bilateral treaty with Ukraine to create a U.N. special tribunal for aggression.

798
01:28:53,270 --> 01:29:00,380
And I personally see the rationale for an international tribunal.

799
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:08,390
But the technicalities of creating it through the U.N. General Assembly, I think, at this moment are not looking quite good.

800
01:29:08,870 --> 01:29:10,910
The prospects especially are not looking quite good.

801
01:29:11,180 --> 01:29:20,030
There's another proposal which I think is gaining steam because a number of governments have put their weight and support behind it,

802
01:29:20,330 --> 01:29:25,490
which is for an international set chambers or a hybrid, you know, so-called.

803
01:29:25,790 --> 01:29:34,490
So this would be a tribunal that is rooted in Ukraine's domestic jurisdiction and judicial system.

804
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:42,049
But essentially, you would have would incorporate international components, both in terms of the staff.

805
01:29:42,050 --> 01:29:50,350
So prosecutors, judges and counsel of defence counsel, but also in terms of the body of law that it would apply.

806
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:55,880
Would it be Ukraine domestic law, but it would be the international law definition of the crime of aggression.

807
01:29:56,360 --> 01:30:02,780
And essentially, in this can be essentially constituted, of course,

808
01:30:02,780 --> 01:30:10,250
it can be construed through the U.N. and also be constituted through a regional organisation in Europe,

809
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:12,800
which I think is the most realistic case scenario,

810
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:21,080
because both the European Union and the Council of Europe has essentially come out in support of this proposal.

811
01:30:21,290 --> 01:30:27,410
And in fact, the European Union has already set up what they call an international centre for the prosecution of aggression,

812
01:30:27,950 --> 01:30:33,920
which is based on that in The Hague and is structured of course to work in collaboration with the International Criminal Court.

813
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:40,760
It is being supported by the EU criminal justice agency Eurojust that was already

814
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:45,500
supporting investigations and prosecutions of other international crimes.

815
01:30:45,740 --> 01:30:51,530
So I think this is essentially the most realistic case scenario and I think it will happen.

816
01:30:51,890 --> 01:31:02,090
I think it's important that it does happen because from my perspective, it's tangible that crimes arising from the war can be prosecuted,

817
01:31:02,780 --> 01:31:08,360
but not the ultimate crime itself, which is the initiation of an unjust and illegal war.

818
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:18,440
And especially, I believe it's untenable that foot soldiers or military commanders might be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

819
01:31:18,740 --> 01:31:27,410
But the real criminal penalties here are those that launched that the criminal invasion

820
01:31:28,340 --> 01:31:31,970
get off scot free because they're protected by immunity under international law.

821
01:31:31,980 --> 01:31:37,280
I think that would be a perversion of the legal principles.

822
01:31:37,290 --> 01:31:39,319
I think it would be a perversion of justice.

823
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:50,660
And I think it would be really a true threat to an ongoing, ongoing threat, actually, to European regional stability and to international peace,

824
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:55,760
because I think it would send a signal that if we don't punish Russia at this time, that we never will.

825
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:00,410
And I thought very much about what the implications of that signal might be.

826
01:32:01,550 --> 01:32:07,450
So I think it would leave it at that for the moment. But I welcome your question signal to you.

827
01:32:07,460 --> 01:32:15,410
So I think someone would have to help me navigate the Russians, but I hope that was helpful and I'm looking forward to our discussion.

828
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:24,170
Federico, thank you very much for that very clear and comprehensive exposition of the possibilities for accountability.

829
01:32:25,130 --> 01:32:33,110
Can we of one question, perhaps anybody ready to ask a question?

830
01:32:36,890 --> 01:32:46,970
Okay. But like you said, Erykah, there's often a tension between peacebuilding and justice.

831
01:32:48,140 --> 01:33:01,520
And I was interested that one of today's earlier speakers suggested that being done by the RCC or Vladimir Putin was misguided because it,

832
01:33:02,030 --> 01:33:06,920
uh, it meant that Western leaders,

833
01:33:07,010 --> 01:33:12,020
peace brokers may be less willing to engage with them and more so that it might

834
01:33:12,020 --> 01:33:19,070
increase scepticism about the sort of ICC as an instrument of Western powers.

835
01:33:19,610 --> 01:33:30,440
So I'd be interested in your your views on that position, but the question of there's often a tension between peacebuilding and justice.

836
01:33:31,340 --> 01:33:39,080
And in this case, one of the earlier speakers, which I think was Robin Williams at the beginning, was sorry.

837
01:33:40,970 --> 01:33:44,630
It was her. Alex. Alex. It was Alex.

838
01:33:45,050 --> 01:34:00,170
Oh, it was Alex saw it as unacceptable and questioned whether question the misguided onus of indicting Putin because that will

839
01:34:00,170 --> 01:34:10,040
lead to less possibility for engagement with him and raises the question whether the ICC is an instrument of Western power.

840
01:34:11,030 --> 01:34:14,840
How would you respond to that? Andrew.

841
01:34:15,140 --> 01:34:21,320
First of all, I want to thank the person that asked the question because it's a very good question.

842
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:29,000
And I think it's a question that actually is very not only it's important, but it's one that gets asked all the time.

843
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,149
And I don't think it gets properly addressed.

844
01:34:32,150 --> 01:34:37,150
And I think this is also, by the way, not something that arises specifically as a result of the situation in Ukraine.

845
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:40,190
This is a very old fashioned field.

846
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:49,879
This tension between peace and justice and but also whether international institutions are upholding international laws such as the ICC,

847
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:54,580
are tools for Western imperialism or Western power.

848
01:34:54,860 --> 01:34:59,200
We've heard various flavours of that allegation.

849
01:34:59,510 --> 01:35:02,900
So let me start with the latter, which is, you know,

850
01:35:03,020 --> 01:35:10,400
when you look at the composition of the court under 23 state parties, I mean, of course, the prosecutor is independent.

851
01:35:11,630 --> 01:35:19,370
But and I think it would have been absolutely you know, the prosecutor is a prosecutor.

852
01:35:19,370 --> 01:35:26,540
They go with the evidence and they were asked to intervene not just by Ukraine, but 43 of its member states parties.

853
01:35:26,780 --> 01:35:33,170
They had to go in. And I think just based on the sheer amount of the evidence that you're documenting,

854
01:35:33,500 --> 01:35:38,250
it would have been untenable for them, you know, not to issue sports.

855
01:35:38,350 --> 01:35:47,000
Now, I was personally surprised that they went straight to the top and that their first arrest warrant was issued against President Putin.

856
01:35:47,300 --> 01:35:51,170
I think that was almost I was, again, very surprised.

857
01:35:51,180 --> 01:35:55,280
It's very hard to predict precisely what implications that will have.

858
01:35:55,670 --> 01:36:01,850
But I think that there is, you know, part of the reason why this was done and again, this is my personal speculation.

859
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:02,959
I want to be clear about that.

860
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:11,690
But I think the two potential consequences to important consequences that will arise from this arrest warrant are ones because,

861
01:36:11,690 --> 01:36:19,430
again, would you dismiss it in a country that is not a member party of the court and there's been no Security Council referral?

862
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:25,380
And so this is going to force the court to essentially look at the question of whether and

863
01:36:25,380 --> 01:36:31,850
we saw on what basis kind of state immunity does not apply before an international court.

864
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:39,170
There's a there's of any precedent even in the region within the ICC, in the al-Bashir case, when the president,

865
01:36:39,170 --> 01:36:46,570
then president of Sudan, was indicted for the charges that included genocide and essentially was never arrested in Africa.

866
01:36:46,580 --> 01:36:52,400
And if you travel through countries and where a member of parties of the court, including Jordan and South Africa,

867
01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:58,999
and this essentially forced the litigation to question the issue of whether or not immunities would apply,

868
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:03,440
given the state was not a state party, but because there was a Security Council referral.

869
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:07,670
So the court said they they they don't apply.

870
01:37:07,670 --> 01:37:11,450
You should have arrested and surrounded and Bashir.

871
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:16,219
But in that case, it was a little bit different because it was a Security Council referral.

872
01:37:16,220 --> 01:37:20,030
In this case, we don't have that. So I think it's important that we see that mitigation,

873
01:37:20,030 --> 01:37:28,970
that we see a fuller articulation by the court as to why they think what the what the legal rationale is for saying that immunities do not apply.

874
01:37:29,210 --> 01:37:35,210
And if immunities do not apply because of the international nature of the court, just like it is the ICC then.

875
01:37:35,710 --> 01:37:42,100
Regional Court. The same principle would apply before an international court and even a prosecutor

876
01:37:42,220 --> 01:37:46,959
in a different manner that would essentially be able to then issue arrest warrants,

877
01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:52,660
if not try and be guided by President Putin if he satrap had it.

878
01:37:53,090 --> 01:38:02,290
And some say, you know, this is really an academic question and it's unlikely ever that we will see a, you know, a trial president trial.

879
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:07,480
And I don't want to think that that's the case.

880
01:38:07,490 --> 01:38:15,190
First of all, I believe that even just having an international tribunal that issues an arrest warrant for a crime of aggression

881
01:38:15,190 --> 01:38:20,830
is important to us because it will significantly restrict it would have political effects on what works,

882
01:38:20,990 --> 01:38:27,580
but it will restrict President Putin's ability to travel freely and to and we

883
01:38:27,580 --> 01:38:33,370
will diminish what I think is a clear objective of the Russian presidency,

884
01:38:33,370 --> 01:38:46,690
which is to maintain a certain level of global standing for the Russian Federation and how effectively to pursue that question of question.

885
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:52,240
So I think it's important that there is litigation over the issue of immunities.

886
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:55,930
I think it's important that it's not a trial we have at least there is an arrest

887
01:38:55,930 --> 01:39:00,430
warrant still put it on record that he's been accused of a crime of aggression.

888
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:12,520
And, you know, as to whether the and I want to the tension between justice and peace and if so, first of all,

889
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:19,149
there is mechanisms in the ICC statute, and I think that the same mechanisms could be impracticable, for example,

890
01:39:19,150 --> 01:39:27,670
in a potential statute for special aggression, you know, that allow even if there is an arrest warrant or even if there is a trial design that

891
01:39:27,670 --> 01:39:33,700
essentially calls right up to it to hit pause to facilitate peace negotiations.

892
01:39:33,700 --> 01:39:41,930
So those mechanisms are there can be created. And as to whether the prospect of some point of peace, you know,

893
01:39:41,950 --> 01:39:51,790
peace negotiations or negotiations for putting directly should have prevented the court from issuing an arrest warrant at this stage.

894
01:39:51,790 --> 01:39:58,689
I mean, I don't buy the argument that it's going to be the arrest warrant that makes Putin not want to come to the negotiation table,

895
01:39:58,690 --> 01:40:03,490
because in my mind, there's no indication of the fact that he intended to do that to begin with.

896
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:08,170
So I don't think that the arrest warrants going to be an issue. And if and when that becomes an issue,

897
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:13,959
there is mechanisms that exist in the in the legal architecture or they can be created in the

898
01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:21,430
future legal architecture that can take that into account and facilitate the peace aspect of it.

899
01:40:22,870 --> 01:40:28,450
But thank you very much indeed. Thank you for coming in from New York.

900
01:40:29,260 --> 01:40:34,210
And we wish you all the best. And thank you very much indeed for your contributions.

901
01:40:43,830 --> 01:40:50,130
Right. We have No. Three, three speakers and about 10 minutes.

902
01:40:50,970 --> 01:41:06,960
So if the next speaker can come forward with flexible motions and we can take a little time out of to do so.

903
01:41:07,830 --> 01:41:24,160
Our next speaker is Ruslan. Ruslan is the recent president of the Ukrainian society and he is going with his four

904
01:41:24,210 --> 01:41:30,990
candidates in Islamic studies and he's going to talk about student initiatives,

905
01:41:32,490 --> 01:41:38,570
particularly the Ukrainian Society Initiative. So if you can be succinct, Ruslan, that would be wonderful.

906
01:41:38,590 --> 01:41:45,930
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I will try to be very brief. First of all, I want to thank Liz for the opportunity to be here.

907
01:41:47,330 --> 01:41:50,459
Um, and um, my name is Ruslan.

908
01:41:50,460 --> 01:41:53,970
I, I'm from Ukraine, from a city called Lviv in western Ukraine.

909
01:41:54,960 --> 01:42:02,580
I chose this topic because I was, uh, although I arrived to Oxford two years ago before the start of the political invasion.

910
01:42:03,340 --> 01:42:11,880
Um, the invasion has deeply affected me, but I also had the honour of leading the Ukrainian society shortly shortly after the invasion has started.

911
01:42:12,540 --> 01:42:16,500
And it has been some of the most transformative period of my life.

912
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:27,300
So you might ask yourself the question, what does a student both initiatives have to do with peacekeeping in the first place?

913
01:42:28,470 --> 01:42:31,470
I guess it depends what definition of peace do we take.

914
01:42:32,100 --> 01:42:35,580
And they're very much like the peace definition of peace,

915
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:45,150
which holds that human security and human flourishing and a sustainable environment with a constructive management of conflict.

916
01:42:46,190 --> 01:42:50,730
Um, within this definition, I would like to especially focus on human flourishing.

917
01:42:51,630 --> 01:42:57,780
So I will start by briefly outlining the context in which the Ukrainian society was at the start of the invasion,

918
01:42:58,350 --> 01:43:03,839
perhaps the trajectory it has taken since then and the evolution of the society

919
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:07,860
throughout the past year and return back to the question of human flourishing,

920
01:43:08,370 --> 01:43:18,529
um, uh, from that perspective. So, um, before the full scale invasion, um, Oxford University,

921
01:43:18,530 --> 01:43:25,440
the Ukrainian Society was a very small organisation and the reason for this is that there are so few Ukrainian students at Oxford,

922
01:43:26,130 --> 01:43:29,910
it's because there are also so few opportunities to fund your studies at Oxford.

923
01:43:30,630 --> 01:43:35,550
And normally there would be two students per year if people are lucky, maybe three or four.

924
01:43:36,180 --> 01:43:42,990
And at the start of the full scale invasion, there were about four enrolled students at the university.

925
01:43:44,400 --> 01:43:53,010
Um, now another aspect of the society is that as a university society, it had a very strong focus on the university,

926
01:43:53,580 --> 01:44:01,230
and it was mostly dealing with promoting Ukrainian culture and intellectual heritage and inviting various speakers.

927
01:44:01,830 --> 01:44:06,390
That has also changed on the 24th of February.

928
01:44:07,110 --> 01:44:12,840
Um, on this day, I think a new need emerged between, among the Ukrainian community.

929
01:44:13,410 --> 01:44:16,110
Um, there was the need to act.

930
01:44:16,350 --> 01:44:25,980
Um, we felt that we have to contribute in any way possible to the war effort for the enormous privilege that we have of being in Oxford.

931
01:44:26,370 --> 01:44:36,020
And because we are the only voice of Ukraine that was available at the university without a chair for Ukrainian studies or history or any related um,

932
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:42,930
topic. And another reason for this was that we have been dealing with enormous amount of

933
01:44:42,930 --> 01:44:47,640
stress and perhaps trauma and we have to channel these negative emotions in some way.

934
01:44:48,210 --> 01:44:48,560
So we,

935
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:58,170
we collectively we realised much later that actually we channelled them in a constructive way through the initiatives we have undertaken together.

936
01:45:00,310 --> 01:45:04,360
And finally, in this year, I think with confidence,

937
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:11,290
I can say that our society has become an ambassador of Ukraine, not just in Oxford, perhaps in Oxfordshire.

938
01:45:11,650 --> 01:45:20,320
And this is reflected in our various achievements and things we have been doing. So we started from rallies from the very first day of the invasion.

939
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:26,170
This is one of the most, uh, the biggest rallies we have organised thus far.

940
01:45:27,110 --> 01:45:34,750
Um, and it has collected £4,000 in just one hour of, um, of the speeches we were delivering.

941
01:45:38,050 --> 01:45:45,940
About a thousand people has come, including the national media, to listen to what Ukrainians have to say about the forthcoming invasion in Oxford.

942
01:45:47,830 --> 01:45:55,120
And the motivation that we had at the time was, first of all, to generate a strong message from us as Ukrainians,

943
01:45:55,810 --> 01:45:58,600
especially about the war atrocities that Russia has been committing.

944
01:45:59,020 --> 01:46:05,260
But second of all, was to raise donations and have some immediate positive impact on the situation.

945
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:10,120
And most of our donations were, um, went for medical supplies.

946
01:46:13,090 --> 01:46:16,390
And we have also been collecting donations physically.

947
01:46:16,660 --> 01:46:23,050
And this is a photograph from a unit in a shopping mall in, in Court Market Street,

948
01:46:23,350 --> 01:46:28,610
where we have collected nearly 250 boxes of humanitarian aid and shipped them to Ukraine.

949
01:46:30,010 --> 01:46:36,760
Then we have also organised a fundraising dinner, continuously increasing our goal with with in terms of fundraising,

950
01:46:37,510 --> 01:46:47,140
this dinner welcomed um, uh, a special guest list and we had an auction within that auction in Nuffield College.

951
01:46:48,850 --> 01:46:53,350
We have also increased ambitions in terms of the message we want to transmit.

952
01:46:53,650 --> 01:47:00,520
So we have hosted our President in Oxford Union in a joint address to the Oxford students.

953
01:47:02,140 --> 01:47:09,850
And finally we have organised a festival of Ukrainian culture in late September which consisted of 19 different events,

954
01:47:10,120 --> 01:47:16,660
most of them concerts, but also exhibitions over the course of three days in nine different locations across Oxford.

955
01:47:17,110 --> 01:47:22,720
And they brought 42 renowned Ukrainian musicians and artists and academics from Ukraine,

956
01:47:23,140 --> 01:47:28,780
um, to Oxford or from European cities where they were sheltering.

957
01:47:29,890 --> 01:47:35,290
And this initiative has raised £125,000, which we have all donated,

958
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:43,810
and it was launched together with three of so in partnership with two other institutions, one based here in Oxford and one in Ukraine.

959
01:47:44,650 --> 01:47:50,320
And one of our most special guests was a music composer,

960
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:56,980
which you can see holding flowers in this very centre of the photo in Leicester of who came here on his 85th

961
01:47:57,220 --> 01:48:05,170
birthday while we were organising all these events and this by this time the photo was from late September,

962
01:48:06,070 --> 01:48:11,530
Ukrainian refugees started coming to Oxfordshire and very soon we realised that Oxfordshire was

963
01:48:11,530 --> 01:48:17,290
one of the most popular destinations or perhaps most open destinations to Ukrainian refugees,

964
01:48:17,770 --> 01:48:25,180
according to the official statistics of the Oxfordshire County Council at by July 2022.

965
01:48:25,510 --> 01:48:29,090
In Oxfordshire there were already 15,000 Ukrainian refugees.

966
01:48:29,920 --> 01:48:37,630
And that is in the context of 100 Ukrainian refugees, 100,000 Korean refugees that were already accepted to the UK.

967
01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:46,360
So it's a very big proportion of Ukrainian refugees and this is a photo of an event we have organised together since the arrival.

968
01:48:47,140 --> 01:48:50,980
From April onwards we have been trying to support them as very often.

969
01:48:50,980 --> 01:48:57,400
We would be the first point of contact when they arrive to Oxfordshire in terms of any sort of support like job search or anything else.

970
01:48:59,110 --> 01:49:06,879
And then what is also happening is that we got 26 graduate scholars arriving shortly thereafter thanks to a

971
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:14,120
special scholarship that was established in record time at the same year by the president of Rubin College,

972
01:49:14,120 --> 01:49:19,540
Philando Tarasenko. And here you can see the Ukrainian scholars becoming active within the Ukrainian

973
01:49:19,540 --> 01:49:24,280
society the same day or week they arrive to Oxford already in the fresh respect,

974
01:49:25,330 --> 01:49:30,820
and along with them over 20 academics, including the academics at risks.

975
01:49:33,610 --> 01:49:38,530
So while we are building this network and trying out different initiatives,

976
01:49:38,770 --> 01:49:44,170
it soon became clear that we have to unite all of these students that have arrived and try to establish a broader network.

977
01:49:44,860 --> 01:49:51,520
So we we established together with other Ukrainian societies the first Ukrainian conference in Manchester.

978
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:55,750
We have brought together 25 different societies.

979
01:49:56,170 --> 01:50:00,070
Usually it was one or two members of society. Due to a very limited budget,

980
01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:08,680
but it allowed us to make connections and reflect about all of the things that we are doing and why are we here in the UK?

981
01:50:09,330 --> 01:50:15,970
Um, what, um, what kind of goals do we set ourselves in terms of Ukraine's future reconstruction?

982
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:25,040
Finally the incredible amount of new ideas in this narrative.

983
01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:31,940
All the Ukrainian students here, which, by the way, represented an equal portion from each faculty,

984
01:50:32,870 --> 01:50:35,750
so each division and all belong to different disciplines,

985
01:50:36,050 --> 01:50:43,250
allowed us to also undertake more ambitious projects after we have worked on short term initiatives with immediate impact such as fundraising.

986
01:50:43,550 --> 01:50:50,870
We have tried to think of longer term initiatives that would be, first of all, more sustainable in terms of how they're financed and managed.

987
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:58,820
Second of all, that we utilise in recognising all the resources that were available to us here at Oxford.

988
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:05,660
And the first initiative that we have launched was the Oxford Incubator, which was aimed at supporting a very vulnerable,

989
01:51:06,350 --> 01:51:12,950
yet very important component of our economy, which is the IT sector and innovation.

990
01:51:13,700 --> 01:51:22,400
So what we have done is we have asked Oxford based Start-Up mentors if they would be willing to mentor our selected start-ups,

991
01:51:22,700 --> 01:51:31,100
and we have contacted various investors to try to make a match between the Start-ups, the mentors and the investors.

992
01:51:31,670 --> 01:51:34,340
And I'm very happy to share that.

993
01:51:34,610 --> 01:51:46,220
One of the first start-ups that have joined us has recently received the first large investment from a New York based fund,

994
01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:57,270
and they are working on bone combing. Another aspect we have focussed on is what the actual city can offer to Ukraine.

995
01:51:57,740 --> 01:52:00,770
So we have made a vote about, uh,

996
01:52:01,790 --> 01:52:09,350
choosing a city to propose to the local city council to create a partnership or twinning which would eventually be twinning.

997
01:52:09,770 --> 01:52:14,900
And we picked Kharkiv, um, for various reasons. First of all, it's at the frontline.

998
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:20,780
So it has been majorly affected and needs immediate intervention.

999
01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:25,430
Second of all, Kharkiv is a centre for excellence and innovation, just like Oxford is.

1000
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:30,200
So they can be mutual mutual benefit from this kind of partnership.

1001
01:52:30,900 --> 01:52:37,860
And, um, actually today was the launch day of the OC Association just across the street.

1002
01:52:39,150 --> 01:52:47,610
So hopefully in some time Oxford will become an official twin city to Kharkiv and explore many new avenues for collaboration.

1003
01:52:50,340 --> 01:52:54,389
The last thing I have done with the Ukrainian society was to organise the one

1004
01:52:54,390 --> 01:53:00,330
year Ukraine peace rally and in commemoration of all the victims of the war.

1005
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:12,630
And it was also a powerful message of hope, but also of condemnation when the council, the chancellor of the University of our platform,

1006
01:53:12,690 --> 01:53:19,709
has given his statements and we've also received statements from local in peace, from the mayor of the city,

1007
01:53:19,710 --> 01:53:24,630
from the head of the Oxford County Council and the founder of the Ukrainian Graduates Commission.

1008
01:53:24,980 --> 01:53:26,190
How many other voices?

1009
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:39,630
So why am I presenting all of this is to perhaps reflect about the possible contribution it can make to peace in Ukraine on the longer run.

1010
01:53:40,050 --> 01:53:51,450
And I could, of course, bring quantifiable impact, but I decided that I do not want to focus on the money, race or any other numbers,

1011
01:53:51,810 --> 01:53:59,790
but really the human flourishing aspects of the definition of peace that was proposed to us by the peace network.

1012
01:54:01,230 --> 01:54:11,730
And what it means is that the framework of the of a student led society by student initiative allows me personally and I believe

1013
01:54:11,730 --> 01:54:21,480
every member of the society to employ their time and skills in a way that would allow us not just to force individuals,

1014
01:54:21,480 --> 01:54:24,430
but also lead others and support such initiatives.

1015
01:54:25,350 --> 01:54:32,940
And I think it's very important to remember that in such adverse conditions as in wartime, it is very important to have a source,

1016
01:54:34,290 --> 01:54:39,600
a channel through which you turn all these negative emotions and impact into something constructive,

1017
01:54:40,170 --> 01:54:46,830
and perhaps also protect yourself from very difficult and stressful periods.

1018
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:56,160
And then the final point is that it has it is a social activity and it brings people together.

1019
01:54:57,240 --> 01:55:04,350
It can bring people together, not just in one city, but across different cities and actually across many boundaries now, thanks to technology.

1020
01:55:06,810 --> 01:55:10,060
So thinking of all these three aspects, um,

1021
01:55:10,740 --> 01:55:17,010
I would like to thank everyone who has been so supportive of us during the past year, and perhaps I invite everyone to.

1022
01:55:18,020 --> 01:55:23,930
Reflect about the potential that students and initiatives have to promote in peace in other contexts.

1023
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:36,460
Thank you. Thank you so much.

1024
01:55:36,470 --> 01:55:43,420
I'm sure there are many, many questions, but I will ask you to hold them for teatime and just just thank you.

1025
01:55:43,660 --> 01:55:49,000
And we'll move on to our final speaker, who is Diana Abu.

1026
01:55:49,010 --> 01:55:53,860
Also, like while she's coming down, just to mention that Yaroslav, who spoke earlier,

1027
01:55:53,860 --> 01:56:04,750
is the current president since the Oxford University Ukraine Society, so to speak, to her as well, if you're interested in the society itself.

1028
01:56:08,560 --> 01:56:14,020
So Diana is a student at Oxford at the School of Government,

1029
01:56:14,830 --> 01:56:22,870
waiting for a master's in public policy and the recipient of an Oxford scholarship for Ukrainian refugees.

1030
01:56:23,230 --> 01:56:30,190
And for the past two years, she's worked as a policy adviser in the Israeli diplomatic mission in Kiev.

1031
01:56:30,730 --> 01:56:34,810
So thank you. Thank you so much. So I'm going to be very brief,

1032
01:56:35,470 --> 01:56:41,980
but I want to talk about the role of women in war and the role of women in our peace process building and how we can

1033
01:56:42,310 --> 01:56:47,980
create a channel for talking between women in Ukraine and possibly women in Russia and local society in Russia.

1034
01:56:48,610 --> 01:56:52,990
So we're going to start with talking about women's role in peacebuilding.

1035
01:56:53,260 --> 01:56:59,050
And we know that from Swedish in, for example, in Afghanistan, after the sexual violence committed,

1036
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:05,230
Russian troops in Ukraine are the rights of women and they are unfortunately role are going to devastating.

1037
01:57:05,230 --> 01:57:13,060
And we currently see that women are one of the largest parts of the society there being a heart of by the atrocities of war.

1038
01:57:13,630 --> 01:57:21,820
And although women are largely impacted by the conflict and paying a higher price for this devastation, unfortunately, we can see that.

1039
01:57:22,180 --> 01:57:29,620
We can see that their presence in the peace process, unfortunately, is not well represented, not only in Ukraine, but also around the globe.

1040
01:57:30,070 --> 01:57:35,920
And we can tell that between the 1992 and 2092, for example,

1041
01:57:36,220 --> 01:57:43,600
women serve only 6% of mediators of 7% of signatories, and so 10% of negotiations globally.

1042
01:57:43,990 --> 01:57:52,780
And also, we can tell that, unfortunately, references to women and girls and gender equality in peace agreements are also quite minimal.

1043
01:57:53,050 --> 01:58:01,510
And if we look at that analysis of the agreements that were implemented, we can tell that only 20% contain references to women and gender rights,

1044
01:58:01,750 --> 01:58:07,510
and also only 6% contain at least one provision that specifically address violence against women.

1045
01:58:10,030 --> 01:58:15,219
Also talking about the gender, how the war effort, the gender violence in Ukraine,

1046
01:58:15,220 --> 01:58:24,640
we can tell that obviously out of the six and 4.8 million displaced people in Ukraine, almost 65% are women and girls.

1047
01:58:24,910 --> 01:58:30,340
And I personally were walking in the refugee camp in Poland in almost a few weeks.

1048
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:36,680
And you can imagine the situation where people, mostly women, 98% of women, I would say,

1049
01:58:36,700 --> 01:58:43,239
are with children and elderly people coming to the refugee camp, which was actually situated in the Tesco supermarket.

1050
01:58:43,240 --> 01:58:47,860
And people who are transitioning all the time from the border to the supermarkets and

1051
01:58:47,860 --> 01:58:51,700
staying there for a few months and then transitioning to another station to another,

1052
01:58:51,700 --> 01:58:59,620
and then unless they find any place to live in Poland. So this was going on for a few months on the border and literally,

1053
01:58:59,620 --> 01:59:07,930
really people and women were living in supermarkets and trying to find a place where they can go after this station that they have.

1054
01:59:09,610 --> 01:59:11,560
And we can tell also that internally,

1055
01:59:12,310 --> 01:59:19,389
women are also the ones who are most in the space on the side and obviously from the east side and from the south part of Ukraine,

1056
01:59:19,390 --> 01:59:21,640
they're relocated to the western part of Ukraine.

1057
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:29,320
And also there was a difficulties for them to try to relocate and find a place for them to live, especially when they're coming with elderly people.

1058
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:38,050
And of course, their caregivers have children, as usually men are staying in the place or they cannot cross the border or they prefer not to go.

1059
01:59:38,260 --> 01:59:42,310
So there could be also this difficulty that we are experiencing today.

1060
01:59:44,590 --> 01:59:51,310
But while Russian aggression is continuing, also planning for recovery and for the peace building process has already begun and

1061
01:59:52,060 --> 01:59:55,960
actually to ensure that this reconstruction and peacebuilding process could happen,

1062
01:59:56,320 --> 02:00:00,490
the environment of women in this process is particularly important.

1063
02:00:00,490 --> 02:00:06,280
And I think that in Ukraine of the Women's Society for Gender Equality,

1064
02:00:06,280 --> 02:00:12,669
for Women's Violence play a huge role in promoting humanitarian development and support of women.

1065
02:00:12,670 --> 02:00:21,880
And I think that one of the speakers mentioned that from humanitarian standpoint, we actually can start some communication between different sides.

1066
02:00:24,910 --> 02:00:32,830
Unfortunately, I can say that from the official point, women are also not that present in the representation of women at the table, for example.

1067
02:00:32,830 --> 02:00:34,450
But as I said, women.

1068
02:00:34,550 --> 02:00:44,270
A particularly strong part in our local society, local community and actually women's civil society is kind of holding community together.

1069
02:00:44,270 --> 02:00:50,150
And because of this strong community, I think the support and communication is possible.

1070
02:00:51,830 --> 02:00:59,540
We can also talk a little bit about the importance of involvement in the reconstruction as currently these topics are already ongoing and

1071
02:00:59,990 --> 02:01:06,469
there are a lot of investment and construction projects that are going and especially involving women in this are topics are also important.

1072
02:01:06,470 --> 02:01:12,049
And I think that from this perspective it's I'm proud to be a woman and present in Ukraine here.

1073
02:01:12,050 --> 02:01:16,459
And I think we have quite a lot of scholars here who are also women and they are kind

1074
02:01:16,460 --> 02:01:20,870
of trying to lead the negotiation and communication respect not only from women,

1075
02:01:20,870 --> 02:01:25,440
but from respect, but also I think that's it.

1076
02:01:25,460 --> 02:01:30,260
Thank you so much for your attention and thank you for being this conference.

1077
02:01:30,410 --> 02:01:46,770
Thank you so much. Thank you, Diane and Mary.

1078
02:01:46,770 --> 02:01:49,830
Thank all our speakers this afternoon.

1079
02:01:50,820 --> 02:01:56,070
We have now the opportunity to go for tea. Should anyone be tempted to drift away?

1080
02:01:57,000 --> 02:02:03,680
Could I ask you possibly to take off your badge and leave it at the registration table before you go?

1081
02:02:03,690 --> 02:02:10,079
Just say that now. But I hope you will stay for tea and come back for the talk by Carne Ross.

1082
02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:13,980
Carne, are you with us? Hello. Welcome.

1083
02:02:14,610 --> 02:02:18,150
Um, which should be a fascinating talk after tea.

1084
02:02:18,180 --> 02:02:23,550
And we will then do the actual exercise to allow you to reflect on what you may have learned.

1085
02:02:24,030 --> 02:02:34,380
And we will ask the speakers to give the reflections quickly on what they have learned during the day.

1086
02:02:34,830 --> 02:02:38,129
So there is an important thing to come after tea.

1087
02:02:38,130 --> 02:02:42,750
But meanwhile, please enjoy tea and come back at half past.

1088
02:03:17,750 --> 02:03:27,700
Thank you for your help. What do you think that tells us?

1089
02:03:28,570 --> 02:03:48,010
I think. You only get the main backdrop on the screen through Coda.

1090
02:03:48,140 --> 02:03:51,880
Oh, great. Player Yeah. So that's yours, isn't it?

1091
02:03:51,920 --> 02:03:57,850
The blue. Can you do a photo and.

1092
02:04:22,590 --> 02:04:26,130
You know, one, two, three.

1093
02:04:26,190 --> 02:04:34,030
But how long do we have to put in there?

1094
02:04:34,530 --> 02:04:45,500
But. Building.

1095
02:05:04,850 --> 02:05:13,470
I know. How about that?

1096
02:05:19,390 --> 02:05:22,550
Now because we have our feet high.

1097
02:05:22,720 --> 02:05:32,800
How many people? What are you doing with your feet?

1098
02:05:33,170 --> 02:05:46,040
But now you tell the people what you want.

1099
02:05:49,030 --> 02:05:53,710
You are all very, very nice to each other, right?

1100
02:05:54,360 --> 02:05:58,660
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1101
02:05:58,670 --> 02:06:08,299
I think that I left me feeling pretty good, thanks to you.

1102
02:06:08,300 --> 02:06:12,390
Are you okay? Yeah. So what do you think?

1103
02:06:12,520 --> 02:06:37,510
Oh, I. Oh. For.

1104
02:06:43,770 --> 02:06:48,390
It's a little. Oh.

1105
02:06:50,180 --> 02:06:56,620
So I said, okay. So I walked up to you and you walked out down the street.

1106
02:07:01,140 --> 02:07:04,160
Also, you were.

1107
02:07:07,530 --> 02:07:20,820
Yeah. Oh. Service is exactly what I was that I wanted to do.

1108
02:07:22,780 --> 02:07:27,820
I. Yeah.

1109
02:07:35,550 --> 02:07:45,310
And that all. Yeah.

1110
02:07:47,990 --> 02:07:57,170
So if you can ask yourself. I just think that's what I'm saying.

1111
02:08:01,650 --> 02:08:17,060
I want to do it for something I really love.

1112
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:20,640
I know. I just want. That's why I became a politician.

1113
02:08:20,790 --> 02:08:24,090
Because people love the way. Yeah, I just.

1114
02:08:24,330 --> 02:08:27,330
I figure out that's the way you get people's attention.

1115
02:08:27,330 --> 02:08:34,440
It is not the people. Although you have to also be hurt or something a bit at the beginning.

1116
02:08:34,440 --> 02:08:41,900
But it was not. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a better way to get money.

1117
02:08:43,060 --> 02:08:49,360
Yeah. I like that because I'm from.

1118
02:08:51,320 --> 02:09:01,430
I am proud of my family connection here, because I do think that you.

1119
02:09:01,940 --> 02:09:24,140
You okay? Yes. I want you know, I know what's next for.

1120
02:09:28,990 --> 02:09:37,170
Is there anything?

1121
02:09:45,030 --> 02:09:51,100
Well, we will be looking to learn more.

1122
02:09:54,690 --> 02:09:57,760
Really? Yes. Yes.

1123
02:09:57,770 --> 02:10:11,260
Yes. Yes. Well, actually, someone can come.

1124
02:10:20,480 --> 02:10:27,580
I think. In the old.

1125
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:38,000
Course I was. I was. And.

1126
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:48,950
And the coolest thing about it is that.

1127
02:10:51,780 --> 02:11:01,310
Variables. This time I managed to.

1128
02:11:07,500 --> 02:11:11,180
Thank you.

1129
02:11:16,110 --> 02:11:24,260
Yeah, there's more to it, but it doesn't get rid of it.

1130
02:11:24,980 --> 02:11:31,690
And you win by. I'm playing this kind of.

1131
02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:48,270
So I think that's actually. What do you do when you know they could run over the wall?

1132
02:11:49,120 --> 02:11:55,940
What if you could do it?

1133
02:11:56,240 --> 02:12:04,290
It's not a good thing to start looking at other people when they think you're looking into it and

1134
02:12:04,580 --> 02:12:14,550
you don't get into it is very easy for people to sort of be out there and absolutely be the best,

1135
02:12:15,180 --> 02:12:24,920
but something which can be done. Yeah, but like you say, that's just not being there.

1136
02:12:25,550 --> 02:12:33,570
I wish I knew I saw her that she was so nice to be with that for like a year and lost everything just now.

1137
02:12:33,850 --> 02:12:39,540
This is the most crazy.

1138
02:12:40,860 --> 02:12:44,820
How do you like somebody who has another year of a.

1139
02:12:45,150 --> 02:12:50,800
I was kind of sad that. Right.

1140
02:12:52,930 --> 02:12:58,600
Because I wasn't with Funny. There was something I reported on 50 years ago.

1141
02:12:58,600 --> 02:13:10,220
Not least. That's crazy. Seems like there was another thing when you were like, Oh, yeah, like, it's like you.

1142
02:13:10,700 --> 02:13:16,080
This is what you look like.

1143
02:13:16,290 --> 02:13:27,420
You know, there was something I was just about to see, and I'm constantly like, well, not better.

1144
02:13:27,610 --> 02:13:31,970
But I was first was like this.

1145
02:13:32,740 --> 02:13:39,360
And it's very hard because what happens is we actually do more than just go.

1146
02:13:43,020 --> 02:13:49,550
That's like somebody who tries. What?

1147
02:13:53,320 --> 02:13:56,820
And as far as the command centre.

1148
02:13:58,910 --> 02:14:07,030
So I was wondering whether it was just.

1149
02:14:13,040 --> 02:14:23,420
So some of these lessons are just some of the.

1150
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:45,970
That's just what I want people to know. I'm pretty sure people in the polls can and in some cases come close to the first person.

1151
02:14:47,370 --> 02:14:52,630
So much. The White House is.

1152
02:14:56,780 --> 02:15:04,310
Okay. Oh, so now we're trying to clarify what those separate.

1153
02:15:07,400 --> 02:15:20,660
What are you saying? Anyone who's hopes to help us understand that we need to start a little business on the other side of.

1154
02:15:29,510 --> 02:15:34,320
So that's what we tried to do.

1155
02:15:37,610 --> 02:15:42,110
We were able to give both.

1156
02:15:42,650 --> 02:15:51,150
Yeah. He was happy. Yeah.

1157
02:15:51,410 --> 02:16:01,320
You know, so it was just it was like, whoa.

1158
02:16:02,920 --> 02:16:08,590
You see what saying this is?

1159
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:27,660
No. They?

1160
02:16:33,770 --> 02:16:38,010
If we have to go to the.

1161
02:16:40,430 --> 02:16:44,170
To to.

1162
02:16:46,990 --> 02:17:07,150
So much. So I decided that I wanted to work at the house to make way for the Big Six that are fighting to keep the journalists in Brussels.

1163
02:17:07,570 --> 02:17:15,790
And I was like, Are you kidding? Well, I suppose I don't have to write about all my family ever was there working.

1164
02:17:15,790 --> 02:17:20,140
You want to have more house?

1165
02:17:20,770 --> 02:17:34,370
Oh, actually, one of the things I started talking about is that these, you know, this there's not practical.

1166
02:17:34,690 --> 02:17:40,570
It's going to do surplus in possessions.

1167
02:17:41,140 --> 02:17:51,990
It was kind of. My brother friend.

1168
02:17:53,900 --> 02:17:57,320
So what are you looking for?

1169
02:17:58,100 --> 02:18:03,520
So I'll do something with you. Yes, sir. You ready?

1170
02:18:03,800 --> 02:18:12,650
All right. Yeah. You. If you've seen all of that, it's.

1171
02:18:15,470 --> 02:18:27,760
This. Maybe they're not worth.

1172
02:18:30,580 --> 02:18:37,840
And basically, you know, it's pretty hard to survive. So she left.

1173
02:18:41,920 --> 02:18:45,450
Sounds great to have you have.

1174
02:18:47,770 --> 02:19:03,240
So she's going to have to be kind of the type of person that we have to have almost as Americans, really.

1175
02:19:07,050 --> 02:19:12,690
I mean, this boy loves this guy. The project.

1176
02:19:17,370 --> 02:19:20,580
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez.

1177
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:25,380
Oh, gosh. I mean, just cause it, they have.

1178
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:44,930
First. He has spent the past week on the beach camping in Wisconsin and.

1179
02:19:48,300 --> 02:19:58,480
Person. So yeah, we had a couple people.

1180
02:19:59,990 --> 02:20:04,600
But now it's quite a farce because.

1181
02:20:05,780 --> 02:20:21,180
How long? So despite the fact that it only.

1182
02:20:31,590 --> 02:20:38,900
It's time to go. Nobody.

1183
02:20:40,850 --> 02:20:54,420
This happens to be the. Yeah.

1184
02:20:59,310 --> 02:21:03,180
I want of this. Sure. As I see it.

1185
02:21:09,150 --> 02:21:21,670
Yes, that is absolutely because I think that basically, yes, people talk about that, but they try to.

1186
02:21:22,230 --> 02:21:26,700
Let's talk about the New York Times article or some.

1187
02:21:29,990 --> 02:21:34,540
Like I said, it's about how we operate about you.

1188
02:21:34,710 --> 02:21:44,380
Like what, actually? Like they said, actually, people want to check out their.

1189
02:21:46,890 --> 02:21:50,870
You just naturally have a. Bottom line at this time.

1190
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:58,000
Where we need a cease fire is working right now all the time.

1191
02:21:58,290 --> 02:22:01,420
But I don't see that happening there.

1192
02:22:02,080 --> 02:22:05,900
And I mean. The thing is that the soldiers actually.

1193
02:22:07,920 --> 02:22:14,060
They are easily pregnant by. Just like this.

1194
02:22:17,900 --> 02:22:29,170
510. So I mean, how many candidates talk about winning this amazing political.

1195
02:22:51,010 --> 02:22:56,090
Yeah. I mean, I wasn't.

1196
02:23:04,770 --> 02:23:09,000
I was worried that. We have.

1197
02:23:10,550 --> 02:23:27,270
That's. Let's move on to politics.

1198
02:23:27,850 --> 02:23:30,880
We just want.

1199
02:23:33,350 --> 02:23:50,020
For. It shouldn't be something that they don't want.

1200
02:23:50,030 --> 02:23:53,050
Just. Just to stay in touch. There's still no.

1201
02:23:59,950 --> 02:24:08,610
Sometimes you have to sit here, and I think you need to hear this.

1202
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:32,980
You have to speak to that.

1203
02:25:10,290 --> 02:27:31,550
So. So.

1204
02:27:35,830 --> 02:27:40,460
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1205
02:27:45,940 --> 02:27:48,970
I'm six.

1206
02:27:53,730 --> 02:27:58,140
Yeah. Yeah.

1207
02:28:27,210 --> 02:28:30,420
You see?

1208
02:28:43,660 --> 02:29:36,160
You know. Yeah.

1209
02:29:41,980 --> 02:29:51,330
Because I like.

1210
02:30:12,350 --> 02:30:20,940
Highlights of. U.S. Secretary of Defence Donald.

1211
02:30:35,850 --> 02:30:42,840
I am working with. I have.

1212
02:31:03,520 --> 02:31:07,330
And yeah, it tends to refund.

1213
02:31:15,560 --> 02:31:20,240
Who groups.

1214
02:31:24,750 --> 02:31:29,310
For about 15 minutes at a time. Okay.

1215
02:31:30,000 --> 02:31:35,130
Should we do that? Yes. And then do you.

1216
02:31:44,350 --> 02:31:48,010
Cut. Yeah.

1217
02:31:50,030 --> 02:31:56,550
So I think. So.

1218
02:31:57,700 --> 02:32:08,910
I'm just going to. Speak.

1219
02:32:14,540 --> 02:32:19,000
The speakers could just say one more.

1220
02:32:19,030 --> 02:32:29,270
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah.

1221
02:32:31,120 --> 02:32:35,940
The microphones. Yeah, just running. All right.

1222
02:32:41,450 --> 02:33:33,390
I mean. See, that's what we wanted to see.

1223
02:33:33,750 --> 02:33:36,770
Thank you very much. All right.