1
00:00:03,490 --> 00:00:09,640
Thank you very much to the Oxford Peace Studies Network for the invitation to speak today.

2
00:00:09,670 --> 00:00:13,420
It's great to see you and see such a great turnout.

3
00:00:14,110 --> 00:00:17,469
So as you've heard, I'm involved in Peace Reps.

4
00:00:17,470 --> 00:00:28,060
Ukraine team say with this program within peace rep has been running since October last year and we're working very closely with Ukrainians on

5
00:00:28,060 --> 00:00:38,620
the ground in Ukraine and our research is really about co-creating knowledge with those that are experiencing the impacts of violent conflict.

6
00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:47,770
And in that context, we part of our part of our research is building a network of local researchers on the ground in Ukraine,

7
00:00:48,010 --> 00:00:57,940
spread across different territories, and using their insights into local conditions to feed ideas into our wider work and

8
00:00:57,940 --> 00:01:03,070
to really build evidence based understanding of what is happening in this conflict.

9
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:11,440
And one of the big priorities for us, particularly in the run into the Ukraine recovery conference, is Ukraine's economic needs.

10
00:01:11,710 --> 00:01:19,840
And in the talk I give today, and I don't think I didn't realise we would get a generous 15 minutes that she had planned for ten.

11
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,720
So if I don't if I don't need ten, you can tell me off because that was my intention.

12
00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:35,499
And so no. And that would affect some of the analysis that I give you today, because Ukraine really is in a good place economically at the moment,

13
00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:41,080
as well as the appalling crimes that are committed in the course of the Russian invasion, too.

14
00:01:41,770 --> 00:01:49,090
So the question I'm really going to engage today is what does the war against Ukraine tell us about our changing world?

15
00:01:49,450 --> 00:01:57,370
And I many people in my discipline, international relations, argue that this is really a return of geopolitics.

16
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,020
It's a return of great power politics in another discourse.

17
00:02:02,020 --> 00:02:05,020
It's the revenge of the revisionist powers.

18
00:02:05,470 --> 00:02:13,480
And I think all of these categorisations of the war against Ukraine are quite misleading and often made by people.

19
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,450
To be honest, you only aren't really getting insights to what's happening in Ukraine on the ground,

20
00:02:19,630 --> 00:02:28,450
but speaking much more at a international geopolitical level, even an ivory tower level, if you want to put it pejoratively.

21
00:02:28,870 --> 00:02:30,639
And they have a few things in common.

22
00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:39,370
I think the first is that they're very state centric in their understanding of this conflict, particularly this idea, geopolitics,

23
00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:47,320
political geography, that the most important thing about the world in which we live is fundamentally territory and who controls it.

24
00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:53,170
I think that's a quite mistaken assumption when it comes to the course of this conflict.

25
00:02:53,350 --> 00:02:56,890
It misses out by two elements that I think we need to consider.

26
00:02:57,460 --> 00:03:02,350
The second is a question of time, which is really important in this idea of return, right?

27
00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:11,740
It's drawing on a kind of political view of history that there's something that was present in the past that's just returning, it's coming back.

28
00:03:12,010 --> 00:03:17,140
And so there's a resurgence of, if you like, a past sense of affairs.

29
00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:21,579
The war is regenerated, something that we thought had lost.

30
00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:28,180
And I think that's also quite mistaken because it's not asking the question we I think we need to ask about this war,

31
00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:34,420
and that is what's new, what's distinctive, what's changing in global politics.

32
00:03:35,620 --> 00:03:41,680
The other question, I think, is around the causes of the conflict that this often gets wrong.

33
00:03:42,010 --> 00:03:50,350
If you think of it in terms of territory that great powers, great states, their security claims on the international order.

34
00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:56,830
This can also lead to the, I think, the false claim that NATO's expansion caused the war.

35
00:03:57,190 --> 00:04:01,179
And there's quite a good body of evidence to show that this simply isn't the case.

36
00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:13,210
I mean, one data point could be Putin's statement in May 2002, where while he didn't renounce Russia's historic opposition to NATO's expansion,

37
00:04:13,450 --> 00:04:16,900
he certainly indicated that he was extremely relaxed about it.

38
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,060
And even in the case of Ukraine,

39
00:04:19,270 --> 00:04:30,010
explicitly stated that that the decision of whether Ukraine should join NATO or not was a decision that only Ukraine could make independently.

40
00:04:30,250 --> 00:04:38,770
A correct is actually a position made at a time when Russia's relationship to the West was obviously very different.

41
00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:50,050
And I think the the other question that we need to consider here is whether that leads into the conclusion that really, you know,

42
00:04:50,050 --> 00:04:56,950
the nature of the military balance of forces between states is actually the most decisive one,

43
00:04:57,250 --> 00:05:00,579
because it actually is not just the military balance of forces.

44
00:05:00,580 --> 00:05:09,110
It's how individuals like Vladimir Putin. Imagine that distinction, how they think about the balance of forces between states.

45
00:05:09,770 --> 00:05:16,970
And then the final point of critique I want to make against some people in my discipline, not the whole discipline I have to say to some people.

46
00:05:17,390 --> 00:05:20,600
And the final point, because I think this gets wrong,

47
00:05:21,890 --> 00:05:28,730
whether you can actually achieve strategic efficacy for military intervention in the world today.

48
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:35,329
If you think about the conflict purely in terms of this return of great power politics,

49
00:05:35,330 --> 00:05:42,409
I think what you miss is the great power politics isn't very effective in achieving the aims of great powers.

50
00:05:42,410 --> 00:05:47,930
And I think here I'm drawing on the work of my LSC colleague Mary Kaldor.

51
00:05:48,170 --> 00:05:57,889
You all use, I think very correctly, that military intervention overseas isn't effective in bringing about what we can refer to as compelling,

52
00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:02,960
as right compelling as states to behave in a particular way.

53
00:06:03,620 --> 00:06:08,599
So then the second so that's the first point I want to make in my,

54
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:16,850
my first 5 minutes and the war that this the way I want to get across that critique of how we think about the war of Ukraine.

55
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,009
And so if it's not about great power politics, well, what's going on here and here,

56
00:06:22,010 --> 00:06:26,719
I want to argue that it is better to see the war against Ukraine as a sign of the

57
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,000
fragmentation of world order that's taking place on lots of different levels.

58
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,370
One level, I think, is the level of ideas of ideology, a kind of discursive level,

59
00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:42,709
where that's where there's a much greater fragmentation of identities.

60
00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:51,500
And within that context, within that frame, there's a rise of ethno nationalism, authoritarianism in many states all over the world,

61
00:06:51,710 --> 00:06:59,300
and that Putin's Russia has seen one of the most extreme examples of this wider trend to authoritarian ization.

62
00:07:00,110 --> 00:07:04,700
The second part of this fragmentation that picks up on what Alex was saying

63
00:07:04,910 --> 00:07:10,100
earlier is that the world is going through a period of economic transition.

64
00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:18,620
So the paradigm of free market neoliberalism has displaced significantly and in fact is being inverted.

65
00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:27,350
So, you know, whereas 20 or 30 years ago, big corporations were asking the state to get out of their lives as much as possible,

66
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,150
leave them alone, and so that they could get on with the task of making money.

67
00:07:32,450 --> 00:07:42,980
That's no longer the case. The paradigm has shifted really quite significantly because now corporations are interested in what states can do for them.

68
00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,430
One buzzword that's often used is de-risking.

69
00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:50,270
How do you reduce the risks of the investments that we make?

70
00:07:51,270 --> 00:08:00,080
The corporations are obsessed with talking about security considerations and geopolitics in for their investments in this new world order.

71
00:08:00,530 --> 00:08:07,310
And what this is a sign of broadly is that markets are becoming much, much more dependent upon states.

72
00:08:08,540 --> 00:08:13,009
Then there's a related aspect to this, too, which is to do with environmental change,

73
00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:20,270
which obviously this is part of the economic transition, which I think is driving this fragmentation.

74
00:08:21,470 --> 00:08:26,780
Part of the reason that corporations are so interested in de-risking their investments is

75
00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:32,180
because of the extraordinary ecological threats that the world is facing all the time.

76
00:08:32,420 --> 00:08:40,430
And that, again, is making politics and political security a more and more important consideration for capital.

77
00:08:41,750 --> 00:08:48,350
And then there's this other aspect that I think you really see in the civic response to the war against Ukraine,

78
00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:53,030
that if you think of the war just in terms of what's happening in Ukraine,

79
00:08:53,360 --> 00:09:03,050
you're going to miss out on all of the transboundary connections that are part and parcel of Ukrainians everyday resistance to the invasion.

80
00:09:03,590 --> 00:09:09,829
One of my colleagues in Carolina, Jessica Shaw at your Colonial University,

81
00:09:09,830 --> 00:09:16,250
has been studying the extraordinary civic response in Poland to the challenge of migration.

82
00:09:16,490 --> 00:09:22,850
And this isn't just a question of the humanitarian considerations for migrants in Poland, though,

83
00:09:22,850 --> 00:09:28,250
of course, that's very, very important to make sure that the refugees are well looked after.

84
00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:38,120
It's also about the self activity of Ukrainian civil society organisations inside Poland and how they're interacting with their homeland,

85
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,700
whether that's raising money for humanitarian relief,

86
00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:45,859
that that is then going back to Ukraine or also it has to be said,

87
00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:52,190
raising money for the Ukrainian military directly through crowdfunding platforms to support the war effort.

88
00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:56,959
This is all this is all part and parcel of this sort of fragmented picture.

89
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,870
And in a way, migration and diasporic links are a feature of this sort of globalised.

90
00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:08,150
Well, this fragmented, globalising world that we've grown used to.

91
00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:21,290
So each of those trends boundary levels, ideas, ecology, economic linkages, civic mobilisation and shaping how states respond to the war itself.

92
00:10:21,710 --> 00:10:26,870
And this certainly leads into, I think, if you like, opportunities of this global fragmentation.

93
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:32,990
Maybe there's an opportunity in this new environment for progressive economic paradigm change.

94
00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:37,819
Maybe there's opportunities within this fragmented environment for developing

95
00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:42,620
sustainable peace strategies that address in different ways each of these levels.

96
00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:46,610
Perhaps a new internationalism, we might call it.

97
00:10:47,060 --> 00:10:54,530
But of course, there are also extraordinary dangers, and we would be foolish not to emphasise those.

98
00:10:55,010 --> 00:10:55,790
In Ukraine,

99
00:10:55,790 --> 00:11:07,220
I think the principal danger lies in the intersection of economics and security and how those two elements are interacting with one another.

100
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:14,960
My fear is that the economic situation in Ukraine is so negative, with around one in three people looking for work,

101
00:11:15,470 --> 00:11:24,050
unable to find it, that a certain state that the society might has a risk of some form of fragmentation or breakdown,

102
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:31,430
and that would create an environment in which the Ukrainian resistance loses its kind of civic character,

103
00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:38,870
its democratic character, potentially, or finds it much harder to sustain that civic democratic character.

104
00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:43,820
Unfortunately, in the fragmented world in which we're living in, we have many,

105
00:11:43,820 --> 00:11:51,440
many examples of conflicts that go through this process of fragmentation and then become very,

106
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:57,890
very difficult to stop, especially when lots and lots of groups emerge that have in one way or another,

107
00:11:58,070 --> 00:12:04,490
a interest in perpetuating a cycle of violence, perhaps as a means of survival and so on.

108
00:12:04,730 --> 00:12:08,540
So this is a clear risk at the same time.

109
00:12:08,540 --> 00:12:17,570
And with that economic exhaustion, we also, I think, could say equally on the Russian side, but for slightly different reasons.

110
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:27,980
And this conventional war, this high intensity conventional war, very different to the conflicts that my colleagues on piece reps peace rep study.

111
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:39,080
This high intensity conventional war may lead to a situation where both sides lose the ability in one way or another to continue to fight the war.

112
00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:44,479
On the Russian side, that would not be due to domestic economic exhaustion,

113
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:54,350
but the impact of sanctions in its ability to procure the high end manufacture high tech weaponry

114
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:59,690
and the high tech weaponry that it needs to sustain the tanks that it's using and losing.

115
00:12:59,690 --> 00:13:08,630
It has to be said in the conflict itself. With that exhaustion comes a clear risk, very clear risk of violent escalation.

116
00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:12,740
That poses a question, a challenge, of course, for peacemaking.

117
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:19,879
So then in the final guess, the final remark, and I conclude, I don't know if I was successful on my 10 minutes.

118
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,910
I suspect not, but I think that was more like 15.

119
00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:33,560
So say the relationship. So, yes, so I think any any peace in Ukraine, we have to put at the forefront the question of peace with justice,

120
00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:40,250
not peace at any cost, and for a sustainable peace to have to be achieved.

121
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:48,110
That has to be a recognition of a peace that's in combat incapacity compatible, excuse me with international law,

122
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:57,800
recognising territorial integrity, the principles of the rule of law system, and the principles of sovereign equality and democracy.

123
00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:06,370
Thank you. Thank you so much.

124
00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:13,600
We have we have time for one question because I shall allow time for one question if there is one.

125
00:14:15,060 --> 00:14:20,540
Yeah. Yeah, of course.

126
00:14:20,650 --> 00:14:24,490
Yes. One of the opportunities could be a nuclear nationalism.

127
00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:34,870
Could you expand on that? Slightly. And that's just the way it the evidence that the president of the United Nations

128
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:42,880
and particularly of the smaller the government of the Soviet was lost in a war,

129
00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:51,910
I think. Yes, I agree. And I think if there's been if there's been one positive in this terrible, terrible war,

130
00:14:52,090 --> 00:15:02,020
it has been the extraordinary strong support in the United Nations General Assembly for the fundamental principles of that international order.

131
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:10,330
I mean, I think sometimes supporters of Ukraine, I mean, in the global solidarity movement, mistakenly and I think counterproductive.

132
00:15:10,540 --> 00:15:16,029
Counterproductive really downplayed the support that Ukraine has internationally.

133
00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:19,689
Actually, you see this in a lot of the discourse around African states.

134
00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:23,979
There have been many African states that have made passionate speeches at the

135
00:15:23,980 --> 00:15:28,660
General Assembly to uphold the fundamental principles of the international order,

136
00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:34,570
that this is a question of sovereign equality, territorial integrity and so on.

137
00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:38,559
And Ghana is one good example. Kenya is another.

138
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,000
And indeed only one state has voted with Russia, Eritrea.

139
00:15:43,210 --> 00:15:47,140
So I think one of the things that we're trying to get off the ground at LSC is to

140
00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:55,300
create much more international dialogues between civic movements and states and in

141
00:15:55,390 --> 00:16:01,209
Africa and the Ukrainians themselves of recent start to this what we have a webinar

142
00:16:01,210 --> 00:16:05,470
series called the Russia Ukraine Dialogues where we did a really good session,

143
00:16:05,470 --> 00:16:13,780
I think, with the Ukrainian ambassador for South Africa who really understands the sensitivities of the issue and you can find it online.

144
00:16:13,780 --> 00:16:21,840
It was a great discussion, I think really underlines the strength of support that Ukraine has in Africa.

145
00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:29,920
So be careful in terms of how you talk up Russian disinformation operations in Africa, in the bargaining group and everything.

146
00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:33,790
All of those things are true. They're happening, but it's not the whole picture.

147
00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:40,330
And it's vital that we give visibility to democratic internationalists, civic Africans as well.

148
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,420
For me, it is just an incredible story of you to start a session.

149
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:59,380
Next speaker is Brooks Newmark, who is founder of Angels for Ukraine, and he's going to tell us his story.

150
00:17:01,570 --> 00:17:07,840
He is a doctoral student here in Oxford, a former member of parliament in the U.K.

151
00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:15,910
Hand straight over to you. Thank you. Okay.

152
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:21,670
Well, thank you for inviting me. Yes, I am a student here.

153
00:17:22,060 --> 00:17:25,990
Very mature student that I could be talking,

154
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:33,040
I think probably for the little section Ruth Lentz going to be speaking in, which is student led initiatives.

155
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:40,720
But I thought I would sort of tell my story of it because it is an initiative

156
00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:49,120
in a country I really didn't know and have no background in doing what I did,

157
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:58,900
you know. So my story is really about being a social entrepreneur in a war zone.

158
00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:08,830
And when I think of being an entrepreneur, which is what I was in my previous life before politics, it was about making money.

159
00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:17,650
But being an entrepreneur is also about looking for opportunities out there to do something that maybe other people aren't doing.

160
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,980
And so when I say I'm a social entrepreneur,

161
00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:29,230
I went into a war zone figuring out how could I be helpful in a way that maybe other people aren't being helpful?

162
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:39,490
And so I had just finished my field research case tonight in Rwanda, where I'm looking at education policy in Rwanda on February 24th.

163
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:46,750
And I saw a post on Instagram by a friend of mine who was on the Polish border with

164
00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:53,710
a bus and was moving people away from the refugee centres further into Europe.

165
00:18:54,550 --> 00:19:00,310
And I was supposed to be going scuba diving, but I cancelled my scuba diving and I said to my friend,

166
00:19:00,580 --> 00:19:05,620
Can I come and join you for four days just to try and help out, see what I can do?

167
00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:12,820
And so I went out there, changed my clothes from warm to getting dealing with cold weather.

168
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:19,690
And I went out there and like, you know, we were shuttling people away and I stayed a bit longer.

169
00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:23,589
I was there for two weeks and we were moving people away.

170
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:32,980
But one of the stories I kept hearing about was that people were charging people a lot of money to get away from the war zone,

171
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:39,490
particularly from around Kiev. So my friend, who's Latvian, had to go back to Riga.

172
00:19:39,790 --> 00:19:44,320
So I said to him, Can you find me three buses because I want to go into Ukraine.

173
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,360
So he said, Sure, but I'm not letting you have my quarter of €1,000,000 buses.

174
00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:59,440
I'll find you three second-hand buses from Lithuania. So I got these three buses he sent to a friend with me who spoke, I'm going to say Russian.

175
00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:07,540
He didn't speak Ukrainian. And so we sort of went in and I went into around Kiev and we were taking people

176
00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:13,960
away from the war zone to the border back to where I initially started.

177
00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:20,740
And over the next few weeks, as the Russians were pushed away, we found that we were sort of less busy.

178
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:26,920
And so then the next thing I heard about, there were a lot of people getting away from Mariupol.

179
00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:32,110
So the bus drivers I had, which were from Lithuania, didn't know the roads.

180
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,600
So I figured out I had to contact the National Bus Company and I figured they needed work.

181
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:42,429
So I contacted one of the national bus companies and I said, okay,

182
00:20:42,430 --> 00:20:47,320
I want to go down to Zachary's operation because there are a lot of people down there who are getting away from Mariupol.

183
00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:51,250
And can I have some buses and a bus driver and how much would you charge me?

184
00:20:51,670 --> 00:20:57,730
And so I negotiated a deal and which, by the way, I was sort of funding myself at this stage,

185
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,209
and I started moving people away from who are from Mariupol and taking them up to Lviv,

186
00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:09,160
which was safer for them over the next month or two,

187
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:15,430
when unfortunately the Russians then got control of Mariupol, there were less people to move away.

188
00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:22,930
So then I had to go to the east and I decided to go to Kharkiv because I was hearing

189
00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:27,129
that there were a lot of people in some of the smaller villages who couldn't get away.

190
00:21:27,130 --> 00:21:32,200
They couldn't move, they had no money and no means to get away and were under constant bombardment.

191
00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:40,930
So then I had when I went out there and it was difficult to find a bus driver who would come with me because of going into a war zone.

192
00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:45,410
So I said, Fine, you know, I'll go in. You know who's coming with me?

193
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,280
And I found two bus drivers to come with me with a bus.

194
00:21:49,910 --> 00:22:01,040
And so once they saw that this crazy bridge was willing to go into a war zone with buses, I got more bus drivers to actually come with me.

195
00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:04,230
But then I had two other problems that I was facing.

196
00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,550
Well, that was the first problem, was getting bus drivers going to a war zone.

197
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:14,390
The second problem was, of course, because I was doing this for free, a lot of the people didn't trust me.

198
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:21,170
They thought that perhaps I was taking them into Russia because this is for free.

199
00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:25,070
And maybe this was a secret way to take them into Russia.

200
00:22:25,670 --> 00:22:30,620
So unfortunately, I then had to charge them some money.

201
00:22:31,070 --> 00:22:41,120
So I charge them ten Gridley Which is the equivalent of ten P And they felt, okay, this must be real because they're charging me for money.

202
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:49,190
This has to be real and they're going to take me to safety. So I started, I spent a lot of time,

203
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:54,829
I probably spent about six months in the east part of the country around ISM and

204
00:22:54,830 --> 00:22:59,360
a lot of the other villages around there just moving more and more people away.

205
00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:04,220
By this time, I had 20 buses that I was working with and paying for.

206
00:23:04,610 --> 00:23:10,849
And I think by by probably the middle of the summer,

207
00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:17,990
I had moved about 11,000 people with mainly women and children away from the frontline villages that were getting bombed.

208
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:25,520
And then I had a massive challenge. I then the local intelligence, the SBU, contacted me.

209
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:32,870
They said, you know, we want to try and get a thousand people through a particular checkpoint, but we need somebody who will move them.

210
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:36,679
Will you do that? So I said, sure. So this was July.

211
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,790
And so I'm I drive out because at this point I'm in Libya.

212
00:23:40,910 --> 00:23:48,530
So I drive across the country. I'm supposed to organise this on a monday in July, arrive at 630,

213
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:59,030
I get a phone call saying I'm afraid we may have to call off the evacuation of a thousand people because the Army have laid landmines.

214
00:23:59,030 --> 00:24:06,110
They lay mines, rather, on the 500 metres between the Russian checkpoint and the Ukrainian checkpoint.

215
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:11,990
So I said, this is ridiculous. I come all the way out here to try and move these people.

216
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:19,610
I said, I want those mines moved by tomorrow or figure out a way we can get a path through the mines.

217
00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:30,500
But I will be there 730 in the morning played. So I went to the bus station in Kharkiv and there were 20 municipal buses.

218
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:35,660
I think these lime green buses there, they were ambulances and they're all ready to go.

219
00:24:36,590 --> 00:24:41,870
And they said, we sorted your problem. Mr. NEUMARK, Don't worry. So I'm driving.

220
00:24:41,870 --> 00:24:46,580
So I send the buses off ahead of me and I'm busy following them.

221
00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:55,130
I'm about 10 minutes behind them and I'm driving down some dirt road and I hear this loud bang and I think,

222
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,260
[INAUDIBLE], you know, I blown a tire in my car. Have I got a spare tyre?

223
00:25:00,650 --> 00:25:03,700
So I say to Igor, I think we've blown a tyre.

224
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:09,230
And he said, No, no, no. That was just a mortar bomb that landed seven metres, 70 metres behind us.

225
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:11,810
So we sort of sped along.

226
00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:21,139
We arrived at the checkpoint and the head of the army in that place said about 100 people there sort of pointed his finger to me, said, come with me.

227
00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:23,780
And he took me around the corner from the checkpoint.

228
00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:31,970
And they had actually moved these mines to imagine the road on both sides where they had moved the mines to this side.

229
00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:37,340
Now, I know the difference between what is a landmine, which is you can trigger by stepping on it,

230
00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:44,270
and an anti-tank mine, which is quite big, but you could flip a switch at the side and literally lift it and move it.

231
00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:51,260
So they had cleared a path for me of 500 metres, so so that was one problem resolved.

232
00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:54,549
And I said, why did you lay these mines when I knew they were coming.

233
00:25:54,550 --> 00:25:58,580
Yes, but we thought they were Russians were going to use the people as a human shield.

234
00:25:58,910 --> 00:26:02,870
So we wanted didn't want the tanks to come across following these people.

235
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:11,570
So the next problem was they then cancelled it again on me saying, well, we're worried that Russians will infiltrate with these people.

236
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:18,260
So at this stage, I'm sort of standing there wondering, you know, how how am I going to persuade this guy?

237
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,809
This general suddenly turns up. He sort of is like a Norman Schwarzkopf.

238
00:26:23,810 --> 00:26:28,640
I don't know if you guys remember him, look alike with a ponytail and huge guy.

239
00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:34,730
And he comes up to me and he's sort of curious at this Brit, is they're trying to sort of organise all this.

240
00:26:35,150 --> 00:26:38,150
So the very first question is he's worried about Boris Johnson,

241
00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:43,500
who is stepping down at this point, and that is all Britain going to still be supporting us.

242
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:48,010
So, yes. Don't worry, the British are going to still support. And I said, But what?

243
00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:55,420
You could do me a favour and tell that captain over there to please let the people I said, I don't know how many people or the Russian checkpoint,

244
00:26:55,630 --> 00:27:00,100
but if they're willing to walk through a minefield, I think we should let them do it anyway.

245
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:05,770
He barks and order and they do, and they start coming through and we get the first to go through.

246
00:27:06,790 --> 00:27:13,540
And what was extraordinary, it was sort of dystopian because they were, you know, old people pulling one bag along.

247
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:20,140
There was a lady with two Alsatian dogs. There was another lady carrying a cat with her bag.

248
00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:26,620
There was a woman who had pushed her mother 15 kilometres in a wheelchair.

249
00:27:26,860 --> 00:27:29,860
I said, Why did you why couldn't you drive her to the checkpoint?

250
00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:36,760
At least the Russians stopped us and said, If I want to go to the checkpoint, you have to get out and push your mother in the wheelchair.

251
00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:43,000
And so at the end of the day, we we ended up getting within three and a half hours,

252
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,120
1015, mainly women and children and elderly people through this checkpoint.

253
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:56,500
And this is sort of one and certainly one of my abiding memories of my time there by the time September came.

254
00:27:57,910 --> 00:28:00,850
Most of the civilians that I could evacuate, we had evacuated.

255
00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:07,030
And so I did a pivot, as any entrepreneur would, because there's no more business there for me.

256
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:22,629
And so I started focusing on evacuating amputees, and there weren't enough ambulances to to take them from the front line hospitals to get treatment.

257
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:27,170
And the problem with many of the hospitals in Ukraine was they couldn't deal with severe trauma victims.

258
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:34,479
So then I started moving amputees to the Polish border to just of and getting them airlifted to hospitals,

259
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,330
mainly in Germany, who could deal with trauma patients.

260
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:44,200
And my final pivot came when the weather started getting cold because the Ukrainians were doing an amazing job,

261
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,660
particularly in Kharkiv region, where I spent a lot of time pushing people out of a lot of these small villages.

262
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:56,860
So there were a lot of occupied villages, but that were probably three quarters bombed, but people wanted to go back there.

263
00:28:57,370 --> 00:29:03,790
And so I then started bringing warm clothing or blankets and a lot of humanitarian aid.

264
00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:11,409
And by the time sort of my anniversary had come up in mid February, we moved,

265
00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:19,150
I realised over 31,000 women and children away from frontline villages to safety in western Ukraine.

266
00:29:19,570 --> 00:29:25,240
And that in essence is my story. And thank you for listening and if you've got any questions for first.

267
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:44,950
12 minutes. Good for you. Well, if anyone's got one burning question, jungle, how would you pay for it all?

268
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:55,870
Okay, well, I paid because I was a hardcore capitalist before I went into politics, so I put about a quarter of a million of my own money in.

269
00:29:56,170 --> 00:30:03,040
And then I went to about 25 friends of mine who I was at business school with and raised about another three quarters of a million.

270
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:11,020
So. So I raised so I moved about 31,000 people for about $1,000,000.

271
00:30:11,020 --> 00:30:15,030
But I had no central costs. So any central costs I paid for.

272
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,300
So every penny that went in and I did this, there were just three of us doing this.

273
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,540
We had no organisation or anything on the ground.

274
00:30:22,810 --> 00:30:27,160
And what I would say to the very large NGOs out there is, you know,

275
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:35,469
you can do things effectively on a shoestring with not huge overheads if you really put a little bit of business practice,

276
00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:37,720
which is what I had into this.

277
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:44,380
And the second advantage I had was because I'd been in politics, I knew the importance of working with local governments.

278
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:51,969
So I ended up setting up ten virtual hubs around the country where I worked with each of the mayors in everywhere,

279
00:30:51,970 --> 00:31:03,760
from Kiev down to Venice, down to Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, all the way up through to Kharkiv, Sumi and so on.

280
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:11,650
So I have ten hubs there, but no organisation. They're virtual hubs, but I certainly now know Ukraine probably better than most Ukrainians.

281
00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:25,520
Thank you. Well, thank. Well, that tour de force we have Dr. Mani Holland.

282
00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:31,880
We're delighted to welcome the Durham North programme this morning.

283
00:31:32,340 --> 00:31:35,570
Let's turn to this. And you have some PowerPoint.

284
00:31:36,580 --> 00:31:40,510
Well, Sebastian, actually.

285
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:08,850
Money is a so I lost my place.

286
00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:16,830
Departmental lecturer in Russian and East European Politics here in Oxford.

287
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:24,570
Two teachers in both the Department of Politics and International Relations and the School of Global and Area Studies.

288
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:31,500
And we welcome you very warmly to speak about understanding Ukraine's grass roots.

289
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:40,320
Morning. Well, good afternoon, everyone.

290
00:32:40,350 --> 00:32:44,850
It's nice to see so many faces. I've just come in from up the road.

291
00:32:44,850 --> 00:32:50,610
I'm at another conference where we've been talking about Ukraine for the last two days, so my head is sort of everywhere.

292
00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:58,290
But what I noticed at the conference that I just came from and something that actually I think Brooke did

293
00:32:58,290 --> 00:33:04,349
a fantastic job in its talk was sort of the idea that Ukrainians are missing from this conversation.

294
00:33:04,350 --> 00:33:08,309
And I'm going to do right now a little bit of what Luc just did is kind of push back against

295
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:12,840
my disciplines and question where the voices of Ukrainians are in these conversations,

296
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,810
and especially within political science and international relations,

297
00:33:16,110 --> 00:33:23,189
but also within many of these policy circles and media accounts, the absence of Ukrainians is very clear,

298
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:29,250
at least for me as a member of the Diaspora and as someone who's been working on Ukraine for the last ten years,

299
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:36,510
I've spent a great deal of my life in the country. And so for me, elevating the voice of Ukrainians is very important.

300
00:33:36,510 --> 00:33:43,080
And I'm really glad to see not only many individuals on the program today, but many Ukrainians and some of my own collaborators in the audience.

301
00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:50,200
So I think that these voices are really important and something that we really need to listen to whenever we are talking about peace in any capacity,

302
00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:54,600
sustainable, even in a temporary sense, but especially in the country going forward.

303
00:33:56,130 --> 00:34:04,530
The reason that I say this is because these are the images that have been dominating much of our media since the 24th of February 2022.

304
00:34:05,010 --> 00:34:11,010
This is a map that was from the 24 February. And as you can see, Russia invaded Ukraine in many directions.

305
00:34:11,580 --> 00:34:18,000
Images associated with this have really been dominating our media, but they have changed over time.

306
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:20,940
And here's a map. This is from mid-March.

307
00:34:20,940 --> 00:34:28,740
So it's not necessarily the most accurate one, but it shows that we have seen new developments over throughout the country in the last year and a bit.

308
00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:32,790
But still, we are still thinking about Ukraine kind of through this lens.

309
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:37,170
Many of us in this audience probably now know a lot more about Ukraine, including at the regional level,

310
00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:41,190
you know, probably where Kharkiv is, maybe it happens on multiple, etc.

311
00:34:41,610 --> 00:34:51,089
From these maps that we're seeing in the news, we're also seeing many of these images, many of which Brooks just painted for us.

312
00:34:51,090 --> 00:35:00,510
Right. These women and children, these elderly people fleeing the country on foot by bus, many of them in buildings that have been attacked.

313
00:35:01,290 --> 00:35:06,180
They have been these these have been very much the images of what we've seen above Ukraine in the last year.

314
00:35:06,990 --> 00:35:12,180
But also there have been other discussions dominating social media, especially Instagram and Twitter,

315
00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:16,950
due to Ukrainians creativity and using social media for their cause.

316
00:35:17,310 --> 00:35:25,200
And we've seen some of these images, we've seen memes in particular this one with the tractor in the tank, as well as just cities being liberated,

317
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,689
like have a sign and the nationalist expressions when these cities have been liberated,

318
00:35:30,690 --> 00:35:34,590
where these people are able to take back and move back to their cities and homes.

319
00:35:35,970 --> 00:35:41,190
But with this, we don't really know much about what Ukrainians think or what they're experiencing amidst the war,

320
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:44,849
except for the accounts of individuals as they're leaving. But we can't.

321
00:35:44,850 --> 00:35:51,210
And as political scientists, we have very significant difficulties in trying to research the country while the war is ongoing.

322
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:58,080
However, it is so important for us to know what they think in order for us to address or to help Ukraine in any capacity.

323
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,810
So for this reason, last year, in February, I received the John Bell Fund,

324
00:36:03,810 --> 00:36:07,920
a research grant from the university for a completely different project in Ukraine.

325
00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:12,150
I had the funds and believed it was no longer ethical to do the research that I had done.

326
00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:17,550
And so what I did is I contacted a think tank in Ukraine who I was previously in touch with,

327
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,410
and I asked them what they thought was the most necessary for Oxford researchers to do at that time.

328
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:29,760
For them, there was no public opinion polling happening in the country and they believed it was really important to for us

329
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:36,120
to know how Ukrainians saw the war but saw themselves and especially the foreign policy ambitions of the people.

330
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:44,069
So with this well, I'll get back to this second as a scholar of mine or colleague of mine,

331
00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:50,460
that if I decided to run a public opinion survey with this and also kind of motivating

332
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,690
our stance was much of the media that had been dominating the discussions about the war,

333
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:01,110
often framing the war as though it started on the 24th of February, but forgetting that this was something that didn't have.

334
00:37:01,380 --> 00:37:02,820
For nine years.

335
00:37:02,940 --> 00:37:10,800
And for many Ukrainians, many of them in this room, we can attest to the fact that 2014 was a significant turning point for Ukrainians,

336
00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:18,030
not only from the Euromaidan in 2013, 2014, but the annexation of Crimea and then the beginning of the war in Donbas.

337
00:37:19,410 --> 00:37:25,830
The Ukraine, the Russia Ukraine war was an international and has been an international conflict backed by Russian separatists,

338
00:37:25,830 --> 00:37:30,930
by Russia and also Ukrainians. And it's very, very complex and there's many different nuances here.

339
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,250
But it's not just been or has not just been a 12 month conflict.

340
00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:39,450
It's been a 12 month plus eight year conflict or now even if 13 or 14 months plus eight years.

341
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:43,020
This is something that is really important for any conversation about peace

342
00:37:43,020 --> 00:37:47,729
and that this is not something new that has come about in the last few years,

343
00:37:47,730 --> 00:37:51,240
especially in the eyes of Ukrainians. This has been happening at a very local level.

344
00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:55,770
I've worked with families of war and orphan children for five years in the country.

345
00:37:56,070 --> 00:38:03,090
And this the horrors, the atrocities and these stories of trauma are very entrenched in very much a new

346
00:38:03,090 --> 00:38:07,320
generation of people who are now have been living with conflict for going on ten years.

347
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:12,210
This is really important for us. Remember when we're thinking about peace? I threw up some numbers here.

348
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,350
Just estimates for us to remind ourselves that there have been significant losses.

349
00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:19,320
This is not at all to undermine what we've seen since February.

350
00:38:19,330 --> 00:38:26,520
But just as a reminder that these losses are not new and they have been ongoing for a significant, significant period of time,

351
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:34,770
and that there have also been many, many people internally displaced and also displaced within Europe since 2014 and not only since 2022.

352
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:39,240
Still we've seen significant Ukrainian resistance.

353
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:47,940
And these are just some very simple visual for us to remind ourselves that when Russia did invade in 2022,

354
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:55,380
there was a significant imbalance between Ukraine's state, especially within its military, its combat capabilities and Russia.

355
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:03,330
But with this, as we've seen, Ukraine has continued to defend itself despite the significant losses, which we don't often talk about.

356
00:39:03,330 --> 00:39:06,820
And this is a really important reality. We do talk often about the Russian losses.

357
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,500
There have been significant losses on the Ukrainian side. Yes, they were.

358
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:17,969
And they began this counter-offensive in February 2022 with a significant imbalance in just inequality,

359
00:39:17,970 --> 00:39:24,570
but yet they have continued to fight despite that. Still, it's important for us to know what Ukrainians are thinking.

360
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:31,800
So my colleague Karl and I, at the time we ran a public opinion survey in 11 regions of Ukraine,

361
00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:37,739
only the 11 regions we were able to get approval at the time because they were only under

362
00:39:37,740 --> 00:39:42,569
Ukraine's control and they hadn't been directly affected within the first immediate months.

363
00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:48,150
And so those are the places where they're highlighted in red. These are the regions that we had and were able to access.

364
00:39:48,510 --> 00:39:55,229
What we are doing with this think tank is trying to compare their data that they are they've been collecting from February 2021,

365
00:39:55,230 --> 00:40:04,170
a year before the invasion, December 2021, so three months before the invasion and then days before the invasion in 2022 in February.

366
00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:08,090
And so I'm going to go through just some brief graphs for you to understand this.

367
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:14,010
Again, these this survey particular was conducted in May, so just about three months after Russia's invasion.

368
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,860
So the first question that had previously been asked in February 2022, before the invasion,

369
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:24,510
was, who do you think is primarily responsible for the growing threat? Because this is what it was at the time.

370
00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:33,170
As you can see, the numbers there are significant in Russia. But when the question was asked again in May 2022, we see a greater,

371
00:40:33,210 --> 00:40:39,810
significantly growing increase in terms of it being the leadership of Russia and also the citizens of Russia.

372
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:44,280
This question is important because especially in the first few months post-invasion,

373
00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:49,450
the rhetoric within the international community was very much about NATO expansion and EU expansion,

374
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,710
why that's who is guilty and that was responsible for this.

375
00:40:52,890 --> 00:40:59,790
Yet in the eyes of Ukrainians, it was not. That, as you can see here, is actually in their eyes it was Russia and Russian civil society.

376
00:41:01,140 --> 00:41:07,720
And again, similar question asking that your interpretation of the events we see here that the war,

377
00:41:07,740 --> 00:41:12,360
the a consequence of Russia's foreign and aggressive foreign policy position rather

378
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,700
than the consequence of perhaps NATO expansion or Ukraine joining the EU or sorry,

379
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:22,890
I'm joining need of a similarity. And I think this is an interesting one, the changing views and allyship.

380
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,620
So this is again from February 2022, before the invasion to May 2022,

381
00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:35,700
we see significant growing support for it at the UK, the US, the UK, the US and Poland.

382
00:41:36,090 --> 00:41:38,370
Again, this is not particularly surprising.

383
00:41:39,090 --> 00:41:45,510
Poland is a very obvious reason and the help that they have given them so substantially the US being a significant ally.

384
00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:51,480
But at this time Boris Johnson had been the first prime minister to visit Ukraine since the invasion.

385
00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:53,459
And so we can't really do this.

386
00:41:53,460 --> 00:42:00,540
Whether this was actually how Ukrainians felt or because Boris Johnson had been so active in the news and he had been the first.

387
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,779
Western leader there. In any case, it is interesting to see such significant growing support.

388
00:42:05,780 --> 00:42:12,560
And if we were I will be running this survey again in May and we will see what's been happening in the the last year.

389
00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:22,150
Another interesting one is just seeing the significant growth in support for Ukrainian supports for joining the EU going up.

390
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,430
I believe it's 13 percentage points and which has gone up.

391
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:32,120
This very much supports, even though it was only in 11 regions, is the same finding that we several other teams of scholars,

392
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,720
including a team based at Manchester, have found with more regions.

393
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:42,379
I included is that there has been if anything the war has actually increased Ukrainian support for joining the EU and arguably Nito,

394
00:42:42,380 --> 00:42:47,660
although we don't have that question in ours and this is again from that same group of scholars,

395
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:54,200
they've also seen a growing support for democracy and support of Ukrainians believing in Ukraine becoming a democratic state.

396
00:42:54,530 --> 00:42:55,489
This is in my data,

397
00:42:55,490 --> 00:43:01,130
but I thought it was interesting and important to show because this is often a question that I'm asked when you talk about this data.

398
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:09,350
And Belarus is also something we often think about what is Belarus's position here again, prior to the invasion and after May,

399
00:43:09,380 --> 00:43:17,750
Ukrainians who suggested that there's a growing fear and that Belarus is playing a role in this and more so than they had prior to the invasion.

400
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:20,750
This might change now, and when I asked the same survey again,

401
00:43:20,750 --> 00:43:27,860
we might see a different result because Belarus hasn't been as active or at least as a location in which Russia can attack Ukraine.

402
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:31,160
However, they still have not been neutral. They have been active in this.

403
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,300
And so it's hard to say whether this will hold or whether we might see some changes here.

404
00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:41,510
Finally, what I think is really important with this survey is around concessions,

405
00:43:41,570 --> 00:43:45,469
because this is also a conversation that at the time in the first three months,

406
00:43:45,470 --> 00:43:50,629
but especially now, we are still talking about what will Ukraine give up in order for peace?

407
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:53,340
What is what is Ukraine willing to concede?

408
00:43:53,720 --> 00:44:00,120
As you can see in this survey, I mean, Ukrainians said 78% of them said they they will not support any concessions.

409
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:08,810
I'm still within this question. My colleague and I felt that it was a little bit too vague and that 78% is a very strong position.

410
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:13,610
But we wanted to tease that out a little bit more to see if there was perhaps anything in that.

411
00:44:14,210 --> 00:44:17,290
So we added another another question in there.

412
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:21,680
And what we can see is that the only or the only bit of movement would really

413
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,940
be around humanitarian issues and specifically around humanitarian corridors.

414
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:35,900
If you remember back in May, in April 2022, we saw a significant number of attacks on humanitarian corridors as Ukrainians are being evacuated.

415
00:44:36,110 --> 00:44:40,370
So this does align with what was happening on the ground, and I'm sure Brooks can attest to that.

416
00:44:41,180 --> 00:44:45,770
There is significant fear and I do believe that this is where Ukrainians position came from.

417
00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:53,810
Nevertheless, this really prompted us to think about what else is important to Ukrainians, because if we're going to talk about concession,

418
00:44:53,810 --> 00:45:00,500
we also need to know what and how they feel about their country, their political autonomy, especially their territorial integrity.

419
00:45:01,790 --> 00:45:08,930
So this led to a second, second conjoint survey experiment led by, again, my colleague and also another colleague at Nuffield.

420
00:45:09,260 --> 00:45:14,690
I'm only going to go into this very briefly, but really the message that I want to take away is in the next slide,

421
00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:17,660
as you can see, we were able to add some additional regions.

422
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:23,930
And again, these are only regions that individuals had not or that were under Ukrainian control.

423
00:45:24,170 --> 00:45:29,060
And we only surveyed individuals who had not fled or left their home since Russia's invasion.

424
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:33,980
This is sort of an understanding of that's how we chose our sample.

425
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:42,770
Any of these regions, these are the initial were the initial text where we had selected Sumi to highlight up there.

426
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:49,639
Sumi was originally in our sample, but during data collection we actually had to drop the sample because individuals there were

427
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,470
so sceptical of our enumerators on the grounds thinking they were acting on behalf of Russia.

428
00:45:54,830 --> 00:46:00,680
So if anything at this amongst many stories, just articulated challenges of any research being conducted in Ukraine at this.

429
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,450
I'm not even speaking about the ethics and potential re traumatisation that come with conducting research.

430
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:11,450
In any case, though, we were able to gather significant data and what we found in this,

431
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:18,620
our experiment is essentially that Ukrainians are not trading off the costs and benefits of war,

432
00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:22,970
as we've seen in every single context in which we can find in the literature,

433
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:33,110
in that there is not a threshold of civilian or military deaths or even a nuclear strike that would deter them from continuing to fight what we found.

434
00:46:33,110 --> 00:46:41,569
And 79% of individuals said that first and foremost, for them in controlling their political system,

435
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:49,730
controlling their government was first and foremost important. And the second is that the territory of their country, including Donbas and Crimea,

436
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:56,000
are fundamental to them and that they are willing to continue to fight until these are sustained.

437
00:46:56,330 --> 00:47:00,950
And this is really important for us as political scientists, as policymakers, anyone really.

438
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,530
Interesting the discussion to know that if Ukrainians are not going to fight and thinking

439
00:47:05,530 --> 00:47:08,799
about or giving them the conversation or suggestion that they should negotiate is

440
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,580
off the table and that we need to think about creative ways to work with Ukrainians if

441
00:47:12,580 --> 00:47:18,370
this is how definitively their position is still and I want to end on a positive note,

442
00:47:18,370 --> 00:47:21,729
because I think that this is a conversation.

443
00:47:21,730 --> 00:47:26,320
It's not entirely bleak. And I think Brooke highlighted this, too, in talking about the local level.

444
00:47:26,650 --> 00:47:32,830
We have seen significant grassroot support in a way that perhaps would be unexpected in times of war.

445
00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:39,910
This is again from my colleagues in Manchester, but we can see a significant number of individuals engaging in grassroots organisations,

446
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:45,430
donating funds, cooking, helping the military in many different ways, not just fighting on the front lines.

447
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:53,530
This is it continues to grow. And their numbers here, they say 61% in the top blue, but it's even more in the more contemporary days.

448
00:47:53,530 --> 00:47:58,690
The second survey was in May 2022, and they've continued to run a poll since then.

449
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:05,680
In addition, in my own work, I've been looking at you expressions of the nation and other active,

450
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:11,230
but perhaps different ways in which Ukrainians have been expressing their nation and fighting for Ukraine.

451
00:48:11,590 --> 00:48:16,240
These are photos of music they express underground in bomb shelters across the country.

452
00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:21,190
We have professional violin players, for example, playing to keep the morale and the spirits up.

453
00:48:22,060 --> 00:48:28,630
You know, puppeteers, we also see this art. I think it's incredible art being painted on to the size of the bomb shelters.

454
00:48:29,050 --> 00:48:31,020
The one on the left is by children in Germany.

455
00:48:31,450 --> 00:48:37,689
As you can see through the colours, there is this new sense of nationalism as expressions to support and fight for your nation,

456
00:48:37,690 --> 00:48:39,790
even, you know, perhaps in a different way.

457
00:48:40,450 --> 00:48:46,389
And finally, these are just another example, including, you know, a famous Ukrainian musician who's travelled across the country.

458
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:49,630
This is in Kharkiv singing and really boosting the morale of citizens.

459
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,650
So this reminds us that there is much more happening than those images I showed you at the beginning.

460
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:59,260
And with that, I just want to leave us sort of with four final questions that perhaps can stimulate discussion later.

461
00:49:00,070 --> 00:49:05,120
One, you know, how do we account for Ukraine's agency? We're talking about the war, as you can tell.

462
00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:10,080
I believe this is fundamental to how do we talk about Ukrainians, agency or give agency.

463
00:49:10,090 --> 00:49:14,470
We're talking about peace because Ukrainians need to be elevated in these discussions as well.

464
00:49:15,370 --> 00:49:22,090
Three What does peace look like for Ukrainians when Russia will be and is always going to be Ukraine's neighbour?

465
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,859
How do we understand that and how do Ukrainians understand that fundamentally and finally,

466
00:49:26,860 --> 00:49:31,180
keeping Ukrainians views in mind, what does support for Ukraine actually look like?

467
00:49:31,540 --> 00:49:34,780
With that, I thank you for your time and hope we can continue this conversation later.

468
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:49,030
Thank you so much. Can we take one question and could ask the next speaker to come on up, though?

469
00:49:49,030 --> 00:50:07,180
We're just answering that. If there is one thing I was watching, the question is if that is the view of Iranians,

470
00:50:08,890 --> 00:50:19,840
how do they think police work in Russia or is this going to be a question that many Iranians in this room,

471
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,229
I think, that are better able to speak on this? I'm sorry, sir.

472
00:50:23,230 --> 00:50:30,040
Sorry. Not sorry. I'm so used to teaching where I walk around. I think a lot of my students I think there are several Ukrainians.

473
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,950
This room, I think, are probably in a more appropriate position to speak.

474
00:50:33,250 --> 00:50:38,590
And however, I was on a panel yesterday with two Ukrainians, one being an academic and one being a journalist.

475
00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:42,340
He's been on the front lines and we talked about this question of what is winning,

476
00:50:42,340 --> 00:50:52,690
what is peace actually look like for them fundamentally is pushing Russia back to the 2000 or so, right to the February 24 borders, at least.

477
00:50:53,020 --> 00:50:57,250
And beyond that, pushing back to the 2014 borders would be ideal.

478
00:50:57,430 --> 00:51:03,579
But they said in their view, they would be willing to accept at least the return of everything except for Donbas.

479
00:51:03,580 --> 00:51:06,190
And then Donbas could be a different conversation.

480
00:51:06,190 --> 00:51:12,190
And at least the academic who has come from Ukraine to Oxford just for this conference, he said that in his view,

481
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,600
there will need to be some other discussion around the future of Donbass in particular,

482
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,290
and that it is separate from the larger conversation about the future of Ukraine.

483
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:33,450
Take this. Things change in this world.

484
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:37,950
Changing the clock with our next speaker is a Ukrainian boyfriend.

485
00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:43,709
Yeah, that's another book that is an ABC student in the School of Anthropology.

486
00:51:43,710 --> 00:51:48,420
Doing a lot things with all of you before coming here.

487
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:56,820
She was a journalist reporting on all this various aspects.

488
00:51:58,020 --> 00:52:01,500
Really excited to hear what you have to say.

489
00:52:02,350 --> 00:52:12,750
Okay. Thank you. Okay.

490
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:15,800
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you, everyone for being here.

491
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:26,639
So my name is Yaroslav, a booster and indeed I, I have worked for a couple of years in Ukrainian media and NGO Sector four before coming to Oxford.

492
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:33,030
I've been working in Brussels for almost half a year covering agrifood policy and before that I was

493
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:41,040
part of seeds for in four team system four as one of the key investigative journalism media in Ukraine.

494
00:52:41,310 --> 00:52:45,750
So therefore I think would be fair like to begin with saying that the position

495
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:52,139
I will talk about work of media during the Russian-Ukrainian war would be the

496
00:52:52,140 --> 00:52:59,040
one of someone who I knew would be the one of someone who actually was part

497
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,240
of Ukrainian newsroom with the beginning of the full scale Russian invasion.

498
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:16,770
And yeah, and basically I think that I will begin with outlining the points of my speech, the first Ukrainian journalism and who are they?

499
00:53:16,770 --> 00:53:20,490
Who are those people who are coming, who are working actually in Ukraine,

500
00:53:20,550 --> 00:53:27,060
having more Ukrainian international journalists than full scale Russian invasion through different lenses?

501
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:32,580
And this is like partly what a previous speaker was touching in her in her talks,

502
00:53:32,580 --> 00:53:37,530
like who speaks on behalf of who, who has the agency to talk on behalf of Ukraine?

503
00:53:37,770 --> 00:53:46,110
And actually, do Ukrainian journalists have the same scale of legitimacy talking about conflict happening within their country,

504
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:53,190
as do international media, talking about that conflict and a couple of lessons to learn and points to

505
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:57,510
think about again as a person who work in Ukrainian and international media.

506
00:53:58,530 --> 00:54:00,989
Yes. Talking today. Okay.

507
00:54:00,990 --> 00:54:10,260
So first of all, one of the things that was very present in Ukrainian media sphere was like one this is a question I often get like,

508
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:15,210
were you expecting the beginning of the whole scale invasion to happen on February 24th?

509
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:22,140
Well, the short answer would perhaps be no. And before that, as a as a part of our newsroom,

510
00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:30,860
we were doing a number of trainings actually on first aid on and I remember that it was like partly and but yeah,

511
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:34,379
that we're actually love jokes about like wearing bullet-proof vests.

512
00:54:34,380 --> 00:54:41,190
And I can't say that we actually did perceive what was about to happen in, you know,

513
00:54:41,250 --> 00:54:46,979
like as a serious that because before that there were a couple of media reports saying that,

514
00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:50,940
yeah, Russia's going to invade Ukraine like in December, then like later than in January.

515
00:54:51,450 --> 00:54:57,419
And so it was partly like jokes but mainly made mainly jokes as like comfortable even in constant stress.

516
00:54:57,420 --> 00:55:03,240
So we were preparing but not it was not something that we were expecting.

517
00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:09,630
So at the beginning of OC, at the beginning of the full scale Russian invasion,

518
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:18,330
what was happening is actually that there were a lot of journalists who had very different expertise and very different spheres they were working at.

519
00:55:18,330 --> 00:55:27,630
So you had like in any other country, you had also war work correspondents who were covering war for the last like 8 hours before,

520
00:55:27,810 --> 00:55:33,660
but it was not the majority of journalists. So it was not like professionals, trained professionals who knew how to do all this thing,

521
00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:41,250
who knew how to wear all this like bullet-proof vests, who knew all the rules and regulations about working with army and with press officers?

522
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:48,870
Actually, yeah, like people who would work as press officers, it was not existent because.

523
00:55:49,350 --> 00:55:53,880
Yeah, because it was just just the journalistic field functions, any other country.

524
00:55:54,570 --> 00:56:03,719
So again, we have like investigative journalists, like the media when I worked where like some of these journalists did have experience covering war.

525
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:10,860
But mainly, again, as I say, it was not like all that constituted their profession.

526
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:19,989
And what we had to face was basically overnight having a conversation on the whole, the general meeting of the whole newsroom, actually the talking.

527
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:21,360
Okay, guys, what are we going to do now?

528
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:30,870
So as investigative media, we used to cover Bandera papers, Panama Papers, revealing crimes of top Ukrainian politicians.

529
00:56:31,110 --> 00:56:34,620
And here we have the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine.

530
00:56:34,620 --> 00:56:38,640
And what are we going to do now? So what's our position now? We're not war reporters.

531
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:48,989
This is not what we can do. And well, as in that she's she's the chief editor of so for information one her interviews you are never ready.

532
00:56:48,990 --> 00:56:52,260
You never register that your world can be destroyed in some stupid way.

533
00:56:52,260 --> 00:56:57,060
And this is this is true. So basically what we're not preparing for doing any of the things.

534
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:06,150
And during that night we actually switched to two directions of our war work.

535
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:10,530
So one of them was covering war. We actually had a couple of people who put on all this.

536
00:57:10,610 --> 00:57:20,210
Like Bass, who had like a bit more experience in in having more before, who want to actually report on the places in Kiev where,

537
00:57:21,310 --> 00:57:30,320
where there were first like um, um, strikes, rocket strikes and this was like one of the possible directions.

538
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:38,780
The second one was actually was doing what we could do using osint methods to identify Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine.

539
00:57:39,170 --> 00:57:46,280
So the thing is that many of these people, they have like social media and just using, again, like obscene methods, like open sources.

540
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:54,260
You can you can identify these people before the using of this information within international courts.

541
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:59,930
So and what was happening then, which was quite unprecedented for Ukrainian media,

542
00:57:59,930 --> 00:58:04,489
that this was what was giving trainings to the prosecutor's office to actually how to

543
00:58:04,490 --> 00:58:08,210
use this methods to identify Russian soldiers fighting on the territory of Ukraine.

544
00:58:10,190 --> 00:58:20,269
Then again, like part of the part of the journalistic sphere switched to countering Russian propaganda because it was coming up as like insanely.

545
00:58:20,270 --> 00:58:27,829
And this is actually interesting because in Ukraine many people understand Russian and when they actually face in,

546
00:58:27,830 --> 00:58:29,360
when you actually have to face it everyday,

547
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:35,870
it's like you get you have to deal with Russian propaganda in some regions of Ukraine where it's like stronger against some Russian speaking region,

548
00:58:36,270 --> 00:58:40,580
more Russian speaking regions in Ukraine. And this all came together.

549
00:58:40,820 --> 00:58:49,070
And I would say that at the beginning it was just basically quite a mess in the sense that we were trying to understand how to figure,

550
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:53,540
like how how to work, how to move on and with.

551
00:58:56,730 --> 00:58:58,410
As things were developing.

552
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:10,350
I would say that many media they got their niches within covering this this this for so for example one of the one of the media projects you CRANOR

553
00:59:10,350 --> 00:59:18,179
instead of doing reports from actually talking about Ukrainian traditions Ukrainian culture that was like mainly to focus this which more to again,

554
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:25,530
like counter counter disinformation projects and explaining more about what is happening in Ukraine,

555
00:59:25,530 --> 00:59:32,280
why it is happening, like why we are not ready to give up, why some Russian narratives should just like go away.

556
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:40,120
And of course, projects like Stop Fake, which is like one of the key hub, basically.

557
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:44,819
Yes. Just from the from the names like Quantum Fake Fakes Project is also functioning in

558
00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:50,710
Ukraine and has been on for years now and they just kept on like with their work.

559
00:59:51,390 --> 00:59:54,750
So this is like another another like direction in which things were moving.

560
00:59:56,070 --> 01:00:04,470
Also, we we have this quite impressive thing which was like one channel 24 was for seven life news coverage,

561
01:00:05,070 --> 01:00:12,560
which basically were a couple of t TV channels, interestingly, because they were owned by different oligarchs and mainly Ukrainian media.

562
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:16,290
It TV media, they're not they're mainly private.

563
01:00:16,290 --> 01:00:17,969
So we haven't this has been a broadcaster.

564
01:00:17,970 --> 01:00:27,990
A broadcaster which is like, yeah, public broadcaster, but otherwise they came all together and they started covering war,

565
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:35,760
which is like another in a sense Ukrainian as the way it is perceived in Ukraine.

566
01:00:36,510 --> 01:00:43,800
When a said, well, it's like a part of Ukrainian propaganda that's happening and it's also ruled by government.

567
01:00:43,810 --> 01:00:49,799
So I mean, it's like another voice that actually emerged within this news coverage.

568
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,700
And this is not the direction in which things went moving.

569
01:00:55,980 --> 01:01:04,379
What was interesting was when international journalists actually started coming to Ukraine and there were cases when,

570
01:01:04,380 --> 01:01:12,270
for instance, my colleague, one colleagues went to the places where the rocket has just like stroke in the residential building.

571
01:01:12,270 --> 01:01:15,800
So it's a total mess. You see people who just lost their homes.

572
01:01:15,810 --> 01:01:20,160
We discussed their families. They're scared. They're like over there.

573
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:26,910
And it's it's a shock. And then you see a bunch of international journalists who actually come to the spot and they're like,

574
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,750
apparently this is not their first time covering these things.

575
01:01:31,050 --> 01:01:41,070
They know each other quite well and they are like in a very friendly way, just chatting, like walking around just as doing doing their job,

576
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,370
which is actually very different from what it is for Ukrainians because it

577
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:48,360
also involves some level of personal attachment to things that you will see.

578
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:56,639
And there were quite a lot of like tension connected to that at the beginning because while again you see people coming through very personal stories,

579
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:01,200
very personal trauma, and then at the same time, you just see people working there, which is also fair.

580
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:10,889
But yes, and it's actually quite interesting the the point that I face have to face as a journalist working in Brussels newsroom.

581
01:02:10,890 --> 01:02:15,959
So there was one opinion piece that they let me write.

582
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:21,330
It was 500 words, basically discussing why the Russification in Ukraine is not that straightforward,

583
01:02:21,330 --> 01:02:27,090
so why it is not just let's prohibit everything Russian or in Russian, like Russian written in Russian language.

584
01:02:27,330 --> 01:02:32,100
So this is not just like such a such a straightforward process as sometimes it is depicted in media.

585
01:02:32,730 --> 01:02:40,260
And it was quite interesting because there were other journalists who were covering Ukraine and their articles were reviewed by,

586
01:02:40,260 --> 01:02:45,090
for instance, one, one editor like of their department and another like chief editor.

587
01:02:46,230 --> 01:02:55,320
My opinion piece for five 500 words as a Ukrainian talking on behalf of Ukraine about Ukraine was reviewed by five different editors,

588
01:02:55,320 --> 01:03:00,870
including a chief editor. And that was quite striking for me because I could understand why.

589
01:03:00,870 --> 01:03:07,199
But actually, as they explained to me, while we expected from you to be more emotional, we expected from you condemnation.

590
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:13,560
We can't expect from you to be objective. Talking about your country and talking about anything is happening in your country.

591
01:03:13,770 --> 01:03:19,200
Even though you are here, you are here in Brussels. You are reporting on many different issues.

592
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,800
We've seen you in work, but we still do not quite trust you in this respect.

593
01:03:23,790 --> 01:03:31,169
So this is something that remained like, you know, it was not said straightforwardly, but I could understand, I could get it.

594
01:03:31,170 --> 01:03:34,470
And this was just sounding like this was in the air.

595
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:43,680
And this is like another piece of reality that we had to face. We basically are you as a Ukrainian, are able to talk on behalf of Ukraine.

596
01:03:43,860 --> 01:03:48,300
Will you be emotional or will you be actually objective and following all the journalistic standards?

597
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:55,360
And it was actually very curious about to compare like how Ukrainian and in.

598
01:03:55,490 --> 01:03:58,700
In national media. We're covering some of the key events.

599
01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:04,219
And within my previous Masters Masters degree, I made a small content analysis.

600
01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:07,370
So basically that it was a comparison of a one week coverage.

601
01:04:07,370 --> 01:04:20,659
It was of BBC and how since the discovery of Russian war crimes in Russia and actually surprisingly, yes, the approach to visuals was different.

602
01:04:20,660 --> 01:04:30,889
So BBC pictures were mainly like depicting are they destruction or they were hiding like the bodies while Ukrainian media that were quite open.

603
01:04:30,890 --> 01:04:34,010
So sometimes it was like blurred bodies lying in the streets.

604
01:04:35,060 --> 01:04:43,670
But what was actually interesting that BBC reports using words like atrocities,

605
01:04:43,670 --> 01:04:48,830
using emotional, emotional location of the events that were more common.

606
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:59,270
So Ukrainian Ukrainians as being in use for actually seeking more facts if it was not a force like a specific town or like which is reports,

607
01:04:59,270 --> 01:05:05,299
which is is sort of includes some level of like personal or personal perspective.

608
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:07,940
But yeah, that was that was something very interesting for me.

609
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:18,439
And also what was quite striking that if you read Ukrainian reports, it's mainly like so here is the story of this person and we trusted.

610
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:27,110
But in BBC reports there were such phrases like we couldn't verify this story from three independent sources.

611
01:05:27,290 --> 01:05:35,330
And the story they're talking about, for instance, is a story of a boy who saw his dad being shot on the street of a butcher.

612
01:05:35,690 --> 01:05:45,860
So this leads actually to one of one of the other questions like, are the BBC standards appropriate in the fog of war?

613
01:05:45,860 --> 01:05:48,829
Or like our journalistic standards in war coverage,

614
01:05:48,830 --> 01:05:58,670
the same as they should be in as as they are in peace coverage and should should it be functioning in the same way?

615
01:05:58,910 --> 01:06:08,690
And what position should journalists take if you have one side, which is obviously perpetrator and another side which is which is a victim,

616
01:06:09,290 --> 01:06:15,890
can we give the equal amount of time and equal amount of of space to both of them?

617
01:06:16,250 --> 01:06:20,780
Can we can we just like give it in the way that we would give like any other report

618
01:06:20,780 --> 01:06:25,910
and just try to balance thoughts or actually we have to provide more context.

619
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:38,180
Another thing that I actually wanted to touch partly was how how us and them were actually shaped within this this environment,

620
01:06:38,180 --> 01:06:47,300
because this is this is the picture that was, for instance, printed in like Financial Times depicting Ukrainian refugees.

621
01:06:47,690 --> 01:06:50,659
And this is actually another picture from the same railway station.

622
01:06:50,660 --> 01:06:58,370
And you could see the difference between them, like actually the way people frame like this perception of who Ukrainians are.

623
01:06:58,730 --> 01:07:05,090
And other interesting thing saw some of the some of the memories of my friends who said that, yeah,

624
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:11,510
we were in a queue in the border and there was a huge line of cars with the Ukrainians actually trying to cross the border.

625
01:07:11,660 --> 01:07:16,940
And there was one one car with some people from Afghanistan, like friends of friends.

626
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:24,200
And they said that there was a crew like from the crew from some some international big international media was the beginning.

627
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,739
So and so you have imagine like 20 cars,

628
01:07:27,740 --> 01:07:39,830
let's say like 100 cars on the border and one car with which like people from a different like ethnic background and then guess which car they pick.

629
01:07:40,100 --> 01:07:54,049
So this is actually quite surprising in well in how how this all was happening I could say that I'm talking from now the situation has changed.

630
01:07:54,050 --> 01:07:58,580
So basically Ukrainian and Ukrainian journalists and Ukrainian opinion leaders,

631
01:07:58,580 --> 01:08:08,240
they actually got some platforms like one of Ukraine famous Ukrainian writers, Anton Chekhov.

632
01:08:08,690 --> 01:08:11,549
He got an opinion piece in The New York Times.

633
01:08:11,550 --> 01:08:21,440
And you get you get this this platform that actually where actually Ukrainians can can say how they see things.

634
01:08:21,440 --> 01:08:29,239
But at the same time, this is something that we also have and we can just like escape this questions and I feel like this

635
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:34,100
questions are actually to ask also in regard to other conflicts happening all around the world,

636
01:08:34,100 --> 01:08:43,130
not just Ukraine, like who talks on behalf of who and who decides like how to do big things and how things are depicted in general.

637
01:08:44,690 --> 01:08:51,139
Okay. And one more thing that how also we have to take into account.

638
01:08:51,140 --> 01:08:55,430
So Russian media the thing is that the perception of Russia.

639
01:08:55,590 --> 01:09:01,250
Media in international sphere and the first in international journalists and the

640
01:09:01,490 --> 01:09:05,720
Ukrainian journalists is quite different because what is happening in Ukraine is like,

641
01:09:06,020 --> 01:09:15,530
again, as I said, there is this huge language barrier which makes us like to understand like what Russian propaganda propagandists messages are.

642
01:09:15,530 --> 01:09:23,780
And we've also had a number of projects connected to revealing of Russian propaganda,

643
01:09:23,780 --> 01:09:27,680
disinformation in Ukrainian media functioning for all all of these years.

644
01:09:28,730 --> 01:09:34,490
But actually so so it's quite surprising that it's striking like that.

645
01:09:34,570 --> 01:09:39,440
The reaction in two different environments to things like this is more tangible.

646
01:09:39,460 --> 01:09:47,600
And maybe you remember like she she's been Russian journalist for ages on one of the key Russian top channels.

647
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,370
And during one of the live translations she just one.

648
01:09:52,370 --> 01:09:55,579
There was this poster No War.

649
01:09:55,580 --> 01:10:03,080
And she said that, yes, I've been working for so many years translating messages of Russian propaganda, but now I've changed.

650
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:10,249
And it was quite striking, like the reaction of the international community and Ukrainian community,

651
01:10:10,250 --> 01:10:14,299
because international community was like, yes, this is amazing.

652
01:10:14,300 --> 01:10:21,440
She made such a great claim. And and maybe indeed like it was it was it was huge like Chechen vote.

653
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:23,540
But what is happening in Russian media.

654
01:10:23,780 --> 01:10:31,550
But on the other hand, Ukrainian mostly like Ukrainians, especially Ukrainian journalists, they took a very sceptical position saying that,

655
01:10:31,850 --> 01:10:37,879
oh wait, but she's been working on Russian propaganda, this channel for like so many years, and now it is happening.

656
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:42,740
So this person has been actually part of this machine that has led to the situation that we have now.

657
01:10:42,980 --> 01:10:56,420
And now, like she just goes there was like this poster and gets a position in one of one of the German media and gets an offer of asylum in Europe.

658
01:10:56,420 --> 01:11:00,950
And and she gets to report on events actually happening in Ukraine.

659
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:06,650
And she comes there as international correspondent, like, how come can we can we deal with that?

660
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:16,040
Her So there is another question that sometimes is is asked about Russian media and should

661
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:22,160
we actually listen to what Russian media have to say and should Russia Russia today,

662
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:29,660
which is yeah, again, the question Russian channel that is present in many countries, should it be back?

663
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:34,099
Should or should we actually make it return?

664
01:11:34,100 --> 01:11:40,220
And the big question is like, again, when we get to talk about disinformation and manipulation,

665
01:11:40,580 --> 01:11:47,540
to which extent is general public writing to to deal with this machine that has been on for years?

666
01:11:47,870 --> 01:11:55,580
And to which extent will the general public be able to distinguish these messages if if they're not given that context,

667
01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:59,390
they're just basically exposed as instrument of propaganda.

668
01:12:00,830 --> 01:12:09,110
And again, like another question that perhaps should be raised about accountability of Russian journalists, about the whole thing that is happening.

669
01:12:09,410 --> 01:12:21,260
And the question is, again, it was phrased today as well about peace and but peace with which actually incorporates them being accountable,

670
01:12:21,260 --> 01:12:25,489
accountable for what they were doing and what they have been reporting for.

671
01:12:25,490 --> 01:12:28,040
Like here is, again, like worst case of Marina.

672
01:12:32,150 --> 01:12:38,480
Yeah, I think that is all from for me with with all these questions I'll be happy to discuss afterwards.

673
01:12:39,260 --> 01:12:58,219
Yep. Thank you very much. Silver.

674
01:12:58,220 --> 01:13:02,690
Thank you very much indeed. As time has slipped a little bit,

675
01:13:02,690 --> 01:13:21,320
we may have to move the order a little bit because I think that Federica is coming in to get into the room like this for.

676
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:31,140
That's. Okay. This is just for the record.

677
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:37,920
You want that email from him? Well, if did.

678
01:13:38,010 --> 01:14:08,050
How do we get into this? I'm not sure. I just opened. So just trying to connect with New York and get to Federica.

679
01:14:08,750 --> 01:14:18,320
Sandra, who is normally a diplomatic school here and is deputy director of Eli Institute for Ethics in the World of Conflict.

680
01:14:19,340 --> 01:14:32,960
And we hope that she will be ready to do her input now on the international crimes going on in Ukraine.

681
01:14:33,050 --> 01:14:36,380
Who can be held accountable and how?

682
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:45,940
Federico. Hello. I know.

683
01:14:46,190 --> 01:14:51,010
I think we have to. Right.

684
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:58,470
Can every can everybody here give me one thing? Sorry, Fredricka.

685
01:14:58,900 --> 01:15:08,080
We are going to put you on now as soon as you are ready. And we just need to make sure that the sound is.

686
01:15:10,650 --> 01:15:15,840
It's coming from my laptop into the auditorium.

687
01:15:17,670 --> 01:15:22,530
Can you hear me? You can try to let me talk to that.

688
01:15:25,820 --> 01:15:32,580
Um, just.

689
01:15:33,150 --> 01:15:48,370
Just bear with us for a moment. Okay.

690
01:15:48,690 --> 01:15:51,810
Can you just do a count? One, two, three, four. No.

691
01:15:54,470 --> 01:15:57,920
One, two, three, four. Can anybody hear that?

692
01:15:58,970 --> 01:16:07,400
How many of those young people are saying they him? There may be a better way to do it, but let's do it like this for now.

693
01:16:07,610 --> 01:16:11,730
We've got the technician coming back. Let me try.

694
01:16:11,750 --> 01:16:15,790
One more thing I'd like to do is.

695
01:16:28,970 --> 01:16:33,360
Sorry. No. Yeah. Okay.

696
01:16:35,610 --> 01:16:41,830
Cable. Should go through the interview to do so.

697
01:16:43,410 --> 01:16:48,180
Okay, Fredricka, can you can you try starting now?

698
01:16:48,540 --> 01:16:51,659
I've just introduced you. Wonderful.

699
01:16:51,660 --> 01:16:55,080
Thank you. Okay.

700
01:16:55,170 --> 01:16:58,330
Can you hear? Are we on?

701
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:06,850
You should be okay. It is very difficult for me to tell because I don't have eyes on the room.

702
01:17:07,210 --> 01:17:11,640
So I just figure to in terms of where to start. Okay.

703
01:17:11,650 --> 01:17:15,040
Can you start now? As soon as you're ready. All right. Fantastic.

704
01:17:15,170 --> 01:17:20,410
Thank you. And and thank you to peace for inviting me to speak.

705
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,120
From Ukraine. I heard a disturbance.

706
01:17:32,710 --> 01:17:36,320
I'm not quite sure what caused it, but carry on.

707
01:17:37,210 --> 01:17:40,690
All right. And I'm sorry.

708
01:17:40,690 --> 01:17:49,420
I was just saying I'm sorry that I cannot be there in person because it's just been a full programme and I'm sure three interesting discussion,

709
01:17:49,810 --> 01:17:55,990
but nevertheless grateful for the opportunity to be able to participate and say discussion.

710
01:17:56,630 --> 01:18:05,070
And I want to you and. Something you don't.

711
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,740
Right. Okay, carry on.

712
01:18:10,460 --> 01:18:18,170
Provide an overview of the landscape and prospects for and accountability for international

713
01:18:18,170 --> 01:18:23,510
crimes that are taking place in Ukraine as a result of Russia's military aggression.

714
01:18:24,050 --> 01:18:30,950
And the reason why I want to focus on the prospects for accountability is precisely because this is something that

715
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:38,300
Ukraine itself is put front and centre as part of its whole system response to the defence of its sovereignty,

716
01:18:38,450 --> 01:18:46,279
independence and territorial integrity. And when we speak of international crimes, generally speak of international law violations,

717
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:52,850
that by your skill or gravity are so atrocious as to be considered crimes against the international community.

718
01:18:53,750 --> 01:19:01,970
And these are crimes crimes against humanity, the crime of genocide and the crime of aggression, all of which seem at stake in Ukraine.

719
01:19:02,660 --> 01:19:11,120
For over a year now, we've been watching in horror and this see, frankly, as Russian forces poured over Ukrainian borders,

720
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:15,020
rain missiles on Ukrainian cities, occupied, plundered,

721
01:19:15,410 --> 01:19:21,800
brutalised civilians in what is one of the most clear cut case of aggression in recent history.

722
01:19:22,700 --> 01:19:25,459
In international law, the crime of aggression Russians fundamentally,

723
01:19:25,460 --> 01:19:32,450
the large scale and unprovoked use of military force against territorial integrity and political independence of another state,

724
01:19:33,140 --> 01:19:35,690
which, in the case of Russia's aggression against Ukraine,

725
01:19:35,690 --> 01:19:45,440
actually began already in 2013 when the economic station of Crimea and as of the February 22 full scale invasion,

726
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:52,790
which was initiated with the overt intent to capture more of Ukraine's territory and to topple its elected government,

727
01:19:53,060 --> 01:20:00,960
certainly took matters to a new level. And in the years since then, large scale combat operations have been taking place.

728
01:20:00,980 --> 01:20:07,120
Ukraine has managed to reverse 54% of Russia's initial patrol gains, though, of course,

729
01:20:07,130 --> 01:20:12,860
Russian forces, as we know, remain under immense pressure in the southern parts of the country.

730
01:20:13,550 --> 01:20:20,060
And the over the course of this year, the human toll of this war, as in Serbia,

731
01:20:20,060 --> 01:20:27,920
has been enormous and the loss of life been atrocious and inexcusable with some 130,000 Ukrainians

732
01:20:28,670 --> 01:20:33,980
estimated to have paid the ultimate price to defend for their country the right to self-determination.

733
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:41,030
And as many and twice as many Russians as made it to appear as part of their legal invasion.

734
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:43,999
And in the course of this year, also,

735
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:51,590
countless atrocities have been committed and documented that rise to the levels of war crimes and crimes against humanity,

736
01:20:51,860 --> 01:21:01,999
if not essentially genocide, with Ukrainian authorities have documented at least 70,000 between 65,070 thousand war crimes incident and

737
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:08,540
countless more having been documented and remaining under investigation by a variety of international bodies.

738
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,620
Only days after the full scale invasion began, for example,

739
01:21:12,620 --> 01:21:18,349
Ukraine sued the Russian state for violations of the U.N. Genocide Convention and

740
01:21:18,350 --> 01:21:22,100
other key human rights treaties before the U.N. International Court of Justice.

741
01:21:22,100 --> 01:21:29,270
In an attempt to get the international judicial body to finally the part of Russia's

742
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:34,700
initial casus belli that one of the many justifications any day gave for meeting Ukraine,

743
01:21:34,700 --> 01:21:37,790
which it had already deployed in Crimea effectively.

744
01:21:37,970 --> 01:21:44,900
And that is the baseless claim that Ukraine was committing genocide against ethnic Russians in Eastern Oblast,

745
01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:47,660
forcing Russia into a humanitarian intervention,

746
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:56,600
and of course, using a variety of other legal instruments, such as the peace resolution, to circumvent Russia's veto in the Security Council.

747
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:03,919
Ukraine also asked the judge of the UN General Assembly to make the determination that Russia's and Russia's conduct amounted

748
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:10,940
to international aggression and that Ukraine is entitled to war reparations and to justice for all victims of the war.

749
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,290
At the request of Ukraine, the United Nations,

750
01:22:15,290 --> 01:22:22,219
the European Union and the OSCE also all dispatched investigative teams focusing on upholding both state

751
01:22:22,220 --> 01:22:27,830
and criminal liability for violations of the laws of war committed by all parties as part of the conflict.

752
01:22:28,340 --> 01:22:35,810
And Ukrainian authorities are preparing to prosecute domestically many of the 70,000 war crimes incident that they documented,

753
01:22:36,140 --> 01:22:39,110
including allegations against the armed forces,

754
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:48,470
which frankly are but a drop in the bucket in the myriad war crimes Russian forces are committing, but not investigating or prosecuting and punishing.

755
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:55,400
The International Criminal Court is also stepped in to investigate and prosecute international crimes in Ukraine.

756
01:22:55,920 --> 01:23:02,270
And and this is because although Ukraine is not yet a state party to the International Criminal Court, its government law.

757
01:23:02,660 --> 01:23:08,750
Plus dissecting the Foster's addiction dating back to 2013 as to include to

758
01:23:08,770 --> 01:23:14,150
emphasise the potential crimes arising from the illegal annexation of Crimea.

759
01:23:14,570 --> 01:23:19,490
And in a move that was later backed by 23 member states of the International

760
01:23:19,490 --> 01:23:24,890
Criminal Court and then also referred the situation for investigations to the ICC.

761
01:23:25,250 --> 01:23:35,629
And in fact the ICC swiftly intervened to point investigators in the opening of a field offices in Ukraine and in an unprecedented move,

762
01:23:35,630 --> 01:23:41,630
this has already resulted in the court essentially issuing arrest warrants against

763
01:23:42,140 --> 01:23:46,440
Russian President Vladimir Putin himself and his children's rights commissioner

764
01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:52,489
in real life for crimes relating to the illegal liquidation and forced adoption

765
01:23:52,490 --> 01:23:57,530
of Ukrainian children from Russian occupied territories in eastern Ukraine.

766
01:23:58,070 --> 01:24:04,219
An awareness that is in itself extraordinary because it's the first time that an arrest warrant

767
01:24:04,220 --> 01:24:08,780
is issued against a sitting head of state of a permanent member of the Security Council,

768
01:24:08,790 --> 01:24:13,909
nonetheless, which does not, according to the report, and we will return to this in a minute,

769
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:21,990
because there is a question as to whether the Russian president in particular might be entitled to immunities.

770
01:24:22,550 --> 01:24:31,970
And let me turn to this. And so I guess what I want to say at this point is that Ukraine is focussed on pursuing

771
01:24:31,970 --> 01:24:36,200
legal avenues as re-energise many international in the international community,

772
01:24:36,770 --> 01:24:45,020
particularly those that see the enforcement of fundamental rules of international law as such as protections enshrined in the Geneva Convention,

773
01:24:45,020 --> 01:24:50,150
and of course, the provision against aggression as key to restoring global peace and security.

774
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:59,150
And Ukraine's partners in Europe and in the United States in particular, see this as a historical juncture,

775
01:24:59,150 --> 01:25:05,629
potentially a second Nuremberg moment in reference to the trials of the allies at the end of World War Two,

776
01:25:05,630 --> 01:25:09,560
which became, of course, foundational, not to the full scope, of course.

777
01:25:10,430 --> 01:25:15,230
However, a gaping hole exists in this account judicial accountability landscape.

778
01:25:15,740 --> 01:25:23,360
And that is because while a variety of domestic and international criminals will be able to sit in judgement over war crimes,

779
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:29,480
crimes against humanity and genocide and crimes arising as a result of the war,

780
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:35,090
there is no court today that can exercise jurisdiction over the war itself or the crime of aggression.

781
01:25:35,090 --> 01:25:38,240
As we said, it's known in international law.

782
01:25:38,690 --> 01:25:46,249
The ICC does not have jurisdiction over aggression in Ukraine and that is because essentially under the Rome Statute,

783
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:50,660
which is the legislative framework that regulates operation of the court,

784
01:25:52,760 --> 01:26:00,139
the crime of aggression was sometimes subject to a separate jurisdictional regime that is different for war crimes,

785
01:26:00,140 --> 01:26:08,209
crimes against humanity and genocide. So even though the ICC prosecutor can investigate and prosecute at this moment, these three other crimes,

786
01:26:08,210 --> 01:26:12,080
the crime of aggression in Ukraine, specifically, it falls outside of its jurisdiction.

787
01:26:12,620 --> 01:26:16,150
And of course, there's procedures to amend the Rome Statute.

788
01:26:16,610 --> 01:26:26,730
But he's doing time and are not likely to be successful already, at least at this stage.

789
01:26:27,440 --> 01:26:35,770
So at the moment, there is no international tribunal that can adjudicate kind of the Russia and of course, Ukraine.

790
01:26:36,770 --> 01:26:40,460
The Ukrainian authorities could not try.

791
01:26:40,730 --> 01:26:50,090
Russia needed a leadership before its domestic courts because there is a principle of international law that essentially grants immunity

792
01:26:50,090 --> 01:26:56,810
to government officials before the domestic courts of other countries in order to allow them to carry out their state functions.

793
01:26:57,260 --> 01:27:00,649
The crime of aggression is particularly complicated from this perspective,

794
01:27:00,650 --> 01:27:05,690
precisely because in definition, international law as a leadership requirement,

795
01:27:05,690 --> 01:27:09,290
because the crime of the Russian only being committed by those, first of all,

796
01:27:09,290 --> 01:27:14,480
it's always an official state act and the crimes can be committed by private citizens.

797
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:20,059
The crime of the Russian can only be committed as an official state act by those within the state of practice,

798
01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:25,970
essentially are in a position to direct the military and political force of the state against another state.

799
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:32,750
So, you know, liability fundamentally criminal liability for or for aggression goes all the way to the top.

800
01:27:33,620 --> 01:27:44,720
And this includes, of course, the Russian president and prime minister, as well as then minister of foreign affairs, minister of defence.

801
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:48,290
And some of these officials, particularly the Prime Minister,

802
01:27:48,290 --> 01:27:56,560
President and and and the Foreign Minister, are entitled to immunity under international law.

803
01:27:56,570 --> 01:28:01,850
So they cannot be tried in Ukraine's domestic court, which is why the government of Ukraine is.

804
01:28:03,610 --> 01:28:12,190
A special aggression tribunal that is now being debated because essentially such liabilities,

805
01:28:13,180 --> 01:28:23,050
such immunities would not attach to the jurisdiction, essentially international courts ability to exercise jurisdiction over these individuals.

806
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:32,350
So right now, the conversation is because I see here there is a few proposals that are being put on the table that are being discussed.

807
01:28:32,710 --> 01:28:40,020
One of them is a proposal for the Constitution of a special tribunal through the United Nations.

808
01:28:40,030 --> 01:28:43,780
That was followed by a UN General Assembly resolution.

809
01:28:44,170 --> 01:28:46,659
And as a consequence of that,

810
01:28:46,660 --> 01:28:52,870
essentially the United Nations entering into a bilateral treaty with Ukraine to create a U.N. special tribunal for question.

811
01:28:53,290 --> 01:29:00,430
And I personally see the rationale for an international tribunal.

812
01:29:00,940 --> 01:29:08,410
But the technicalities of creating it through the U.N. General Assembly at this moment are not looking quite good.

813
01:29:08,890 --> 01:29:10,960
The prospects especially are not looking quite good.

814
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:20,050
There's another proposal which I think is gaining steam because a number of governments have put their weight and support behind it,

815
01:29:20,350 --> 01:29:25,510
which is for an international license, two chambers or a hybrid chicken, also called.

816
01:29:25,810 --> 01:29:34,510
So this would be a tribunal that is rooted in Ukraine's domestic jurisdiction and judicial system.

817
01:29:34,780 --> 01:29:42,069
But as such, you would have would incorporate international components both in terms of the staff.

818
01:29:42,070 --> 01:29:50,360
So prosecutors, judges and counsel of defence counsel, but also in terms of the head and body of law that it would apply.

819
01:29:50,380 --> 01:29:55,900
Would it be Ukraine domestic law? But it would be the international law definition of the crime of aggression.

820
01:29:56,380 --> 01:30:01,780
And essentially, in this can be essentially constituted.

821
01:30:02,410 --> 01:30:10,299
Of course, it can be constituted through the U.N. and it could also be constituted through a regional organisation in Europe,

822
01:30:10,300 --> 01:30:12,820
which I think is the most realistic case scenario,

823
01:30:13,060 --> 01:30:21,130
because both the European Union and the Council of Europe has essentially come out as supportive of this proposal.

824
01:30:21,310 --> 01:30:27,430
And in fact, the European Union has already set up what they call an international centre for the prosecution of aggression,

825
01:30:27,970 --> 01:30:33,910
which is based in fact in The Hague and is instructive, of course, to work in cooperation with the International Criminal Court.

826
01:30:34,180 --> 01:30:40,270
It is being supported by the EU criminal justice agency Eurojust.

827
01:30:40,270 --> 01:30:45,520
There was a basis for investigations and prosecutions of other international crimes.

828
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:51,570
So I think this is essentially the most realistic case scenario and I think it will happen.

829
01:30:51,910 --> 01:31:02,110
I think it's important that it does something because from my perspective, it's untenable that crimes arising from the war can be prosecuted,

830
01:31:02,830 --> 01:31:08,380
but not the ultimate crime itself, which is the initiation of an unjust and illegal war.

831
01:31:09,260 --> 01:31:18,460
And especially, I believe it's untenable that foot soldiers or military commanders might be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

832
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:27,430
But the real work vehicles here, those that launched the criminal invasion,

833
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:32,010
get off scot free because they're protected by immunity under international law.

834
01:31:32,020 --> 01:31:37,300
I think that would be a perversion of the legal principles.

835
01:31:37,310 --> 01:31:39,340
I think it would be a perversion of justice.

836
01:31:39,340 --> 01:31:50,680
And I think it would be free and a true threat to an ongoing, ongoing threat, actually, to European regional stability and to international peace,

837
01:31:50,860 --> 01:31:55,810
because I think it will send a signal that if we don't punish aggression this time, that we never will.

838
01:31:56,650 --> 01:32:00,430
And I thought very much about what the implications of that signal might be.

839
01:32:01,570 --> 01:32:07,479
So I think it would leave it at that for the moment. But I welcome your question signal to you.

840
01:32:07,480 --> 01:32:15,430
So I think someone would have to come of the gate at the Russians, but I hope that was helpful and I'm looking forward to our discussion.

841
01:32:16,780 --> 01:32:24,220
Federico, thank you very much for that very clear and comprehensive exposition of the possibilities for accountability.

842
01:32:25,150 --> 01:32:33,130
Can we. One question, perhaps. Anybody ready to ask a question?

843
01:32:36,910 --> 01:32:46,990
Okay. But like you said, Erykah, there's often a tension between peacebuilding and justice.

844
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:54,040
And I was interested that one of his earlier speeches suggested that being done by

845
01:32:54,040 --> 01:33:06,940
the RCC or Vladimir Putin was misguided because it meant that Western leaders,

846
01:33:07,030 --> 01:33:09,670
peace brokers may be less willing to engage with him,

847
01:33:10,810 --> 01:33:19,090
and also that it might increase scepticism about the sort of ICC as an instrument of Western powers.

848
01:33:19,630 --> 01:33:23,470
So I'd be interested in your your views on that position.

849
01:33:24,940 --> 01:33:30,460
The question of there's often a tension between peacebuilding and justice.

850
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:36,100
And in this case, one of the earlier speakers, which I think was Robin Williams at the beginning.

851
01:33:38,710 --> 01:33:43,060
Sorry, I think it was Alex.

852
01:33:43,930 --> 01:33:51,400
It was Alex. So it was Alex saw it as unacceptable and questioned whether, um.

853
01:33:51,730 --> 01:34:04,000
Question the misguided ness of indicting Putin because that will lead to less possibility for engagement with him.

854
01:34:04,570 --> 01:34:10,060
And raises the question whether the ICC is an instrument of Western power.

855
01:34:11,050 --> 01:34:21,340
How would you respond to that? First of all, I want to thank the person that asked the question, because it's a very good question.

856
01:34:21,340 --> 01:34:29,020
And I think it's a question that actually is very not only it's important, but it's one that gets asked all the time.

857
01:34:29,020 --> 01:34:32,169
And I don't think it gets properly addressed.

858
01:34:32,170 --> 01:34:37,190
And I think this is also, by the way, not something that arises specifically as a result of the situation in Ukraine.

859
01:34:37,190 --> 01:34:40,180
This is a very old fashioned field.

860
01:34:41,260 --> 01:34:49,870
This tension between peace and justice and also whether international institutions are upholding international laws such as the ICC,

861
01:34:49,870 --> 01:34:54,630
are tools for Western imperialism or Western power.

862
01:34:54,910 --> 01:34:59,210
We've heard various flavours of that allegation.

863
01:34:59,530 --> 01:35:02,950
So let me start with the latter, which is, you know,

864
01:35:03,010 --> 01:35:10,420
when you look at the composition of the court in 23 state parties, I mean, of course, the prosecutor is independent.

865
01:35:11,650 --> 01:35:19,389
But and I think it would have been absolutely you know, the prosecutor is a prosecutor.

866
01:35:19,390 --> 01:35:27,820
They go where the evidence is done. And they weren't asked to intervene just by Ukraine, but 43 of its member state parties, they have to go in.

867
01:35:27,850 --> 01:35:38,220
And I think just based on the sheer amount of the evidence that you're documenting, it would have been untenable for them, you know, not to ask for.

868
01:35:38,350 --> 01:35:46,720
Now, I was personally surprised that they went straight to the top and that their first Paris warrant was issued against president.

869
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:51,190
I think that was overruled. I was again very surprised.

870
01:35:51,220 --> 01:35:55,330
It's very hard to predict precisely what implications that will have.

871
01:35:55,690 --> 01:36:00,249
But I think that there is, you know, part of the reason why this was done and again,

872
01:36:00,250 --> 01:36:02,979
this is my personal speculation and I want to be clear about that.

873
01:36:02,980 --> 01:36:09,730
But I think the two potential consequences, important consequences that will arise from this arrest warrant are one.

874
01:36:11,050 --> 01:36:19,450
Because, again, what you just put it in a country that is not a member party of the court and there's been no Security Council referral.

875
01:36:19,900 --> 01:36:25,360
And so this is going to force the court to essentially look at the question of whether and

876
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:31,900
we saw on what basis out of state immunity does not apply before an international court.

877
01:36:32,260 --> 01:36:37,750
There's a there's nobody precedent even in the jurisprudence just within the ICC, the al-Bashir case,

878
01:36:38,410 --> 01:36:46,410
when the precedent and president of Sudan was indicted for the charges that included genocide and essentially was never arrested or not.

879
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:52,450
And in fact, if you travel through countries and where a number of parties are supporting Jordan and South Africa,

880
01:36:52,780 --> 01:36:59,019
and this essentially forced the litigation to question the issue of whether or not immunities would apply,

881
01:36:59,020 --> 01:37:03,460
given the state was not a state party, but because there was a Security Council referral.

882
01:37:04,180 --> 01:37:07,690
So the court said they they they don't apply.

883
01:37:07,690 --> 01:37:11,440
You should have arrested and surrounded Bashir.

884
01:37:12,700 --> 01:37:16,239
But in that case, it was a little bit different because it was becomes a referral.

885
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:20,080
In this case, we don't have that. So I think it's important that we see that litigation,

886
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:27,309
that we see a fuller articulation by the court as to why they think what that what the legal rationale is for saying

887
01:37:27,310 --> 01:37:33,700
that immunities do not apply and if immunities do not apply because of the international nature of the court,

888
01:37:33,700 --> 01:37:36,480
just like it is the ICC then. Regional Court.

889
01:37:37,380 --> 01:37:43,270
The same principle would apply before an international court and even prosecute them in a different manner.

890
01:37:43,290 --> 01:37:51,809
That would essentially be able to then issue arrest warrants, if not try and identify President Putin if he.

891
01:37:51,810 --> 01:37:59,710
SATRAPI And some say, you know, this is really an academic question and it's unlikely ever that we will see a,

892
01:38:00,050 --> 01:38:07,520
you know, a trial, President Putin on trial. And I don't want to think that that's the case.

893
01:38:07,530 --> 01:38:14,639
First of all, I believe that even just having an international tribunal that issues an arrest warrant for a crime of

894
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:20,480
aggression is important in us because it will significantly restrict it would have political effects.

895
01:38:20,580 --> 01:38:26,790
It works as well as it will restrict President Putin's ability to travel freely and

896
01:38:26,790 --> 01:38:33,389
to and he will diminish what I think is a clear objective of the Russian presidency,

897
01:38:33,390 --> 01:38:47,770
which is to maintain a certain level of global standing for the Russian Federation and how effectively to pursue that question and that.

898
01:38:47,820 --> 01:38:54,510
So I think it's important that there is a position where the issue of immunities, I think it's important that it's not a trial.

899
01:38:54,510 --> 01:39:00,450
We have, at least for this defendant, a record that he's been accused of, a crime of aggression.

900
01:39:00,820 --> 01:39:12,540
And, you know, as to whether the to the tension between justice and peace and if so, first of all,

901
01:39:12,540 --> 01:39:19,169
there is mechanisms in the ICC statute, and I think that the same mechanisms could be replicable, for example,

902
01:39:19,170 --> 01:39:23,430
in a potential statute for a special tribunal that allow,

903
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:27,690
even if there is an arrest warrant or even if there is a trial design that

904
01:39:27,690 --> 01:39:33,719
essentially calls right to India to hit pause to facilitate peace negotiations.

905
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:41,780
So those mechanisms are there can be created. And as to whether the prospect of some point of peace but, you know,

906
01:39:41,790 --> 01:39:51,809
only single nations or negotiations for putting directly should have prevented the court from issuing an arrest warrant at this stage.

907
01:39:51,810 --> 01:39:55,700
I mean, I don't buy the argument that it's going to be the arrest warrant that makes.

908
01:39:55,730 --> 01:40:03,510
Would you not want to come to the negotiation table? Because in my mind, there is no indication of the fact that he intended to do that to begin with.

909
01:40:03,660 --> 01:40:06,150
So I don't think that the arrest warrant is going to be an issue.

910
01:40:06,300 --> 01:40:12,660
And if and when that becomes an issue, there is mechanisms that exist in the in the legal architecture,

911
01:40:13,020 --> 01:40:21,450
or they can be created in a future legal architecture that can take that into account and facilitate the peace aspects of it.

912
01:40:22,460 --> 01:40:25,650
Very, very good. Thank you very much indeed.

913
01:40:26,250 --> 01:40:31,080
Thank you for coming in from New York. And we wish you all the best.

914
01:40:31,350 --> 01:40:35,200
And thank you very much, indeed for your contributions to.

915
01:40:43,990 --> 01:40:50,140
Which we have now three, three speakers and about 10 minutes.

916
01:40:51,010 --> 01:40:57,730
So if the next speaker could come for me, thanks very much.

917
01:40:57,990 --> 01:41:07,000
So we can take a little time out to Europe to do so.

918
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:14,770
Our next speaker is Ruslan. And this is the.

919
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:24,229
Recently the president of the Ukrainian society and he is going is an NFL

920
01:41:24,230 --> 01:41:31,010
candidate in Islamic studies and he's going to talk about student initiatives,

921
01:41:32,550 --> 01:41:38,580
particularly the Ukrainian Society Initiative. So if you can be succinct, Jerusalem, that would be wonderful.

922
01:41:38,630 --> 01:41:45,950
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I will try to be very brief. First of all, I want to thank Liz for the opportunity to be here.

923
01:41:47,440 --> 01:41:50,479
Um, and um, my name is Ruslan.

924
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:54,020
I am from Ukraine, from a city called Lviv in western Ukraine.

925
01:41:54,980 --> 01:42:02,600
I chose this topic because I was going right to Oxford two years ago before the start of the political invasion.

926
01:42:04,490 --> 01:42:10,969
The invasion has deeply affected me, but I also had the honour of leading the Ukrainian society shortly shortly after the

927
01:42:10,970 --> 01:42:16,520
invasion has started and it has been some of the most transformative period of my life.

928
01:42:17,420 --> 01:42:27,320
So you might ask yourself the question what does student led initiatives have to do with peacekeeping in the first place?

929
01:42:28,490 --> 01:42:31,490
I guess it depends what definition of peace do we take.

930
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:35,600
And I very much like the peace definition of peace,

931
01:42:36,380 --> 01:42:45,170
which holds that human security and human flourishing and a sustainable environment with a constructive management of conflict.

932
01:42:46,850 --> 01:42:50,750
Within this definition, I would like to especially focus on human flourishing.

933
01:42:51,650 --> 01:42:57,800
So I will start by briefly outlining the context in which the Ukrainian society was at the start of the invasion,

934
01:42:58,370 --> 01:43:04,189
perhaps the trajectory it has taken since then and the evolution of the society throughout

935
01:43:04,190 --> 01:43:11,240
the past year and return back to the question of human flourishing from that perspective.

936
01:43:12,590 --> 01:43:16,370
So before the full scale invasion,

937
01:43:17,870 --> 01:43:25,470
Oxford University Ukrainian Society was a very small organisation and the reason for this is that there are so few Ukrainian students at Oxford.

938
01:43:26,150 --> 01:43:29,930
It's because there are also so few opportunities to fund your studies at Oxford.

939
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:35,570
And normally there would be two students per year if people are lucky, maybe three or four.

940
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:43,040
And at the start of the full scale invasion, there were about four enrolled students at the university.

941
01:43:45,380 --> 01:43:53,030
Now, another aspect of the society is that as a university society, it had a very strong focus on the university,

942
01:43:53,600 --> 01:44:01,250
and it was mostly dealing with promoting Ukrainian culture and intellectual heritage by combining various speakers.

943
01:44:01,850 --> 01:44:06,410
That has also changed on the 24 of February.

944
01:44:07,260 --> 01:44:12,860
And on this day, I think a new need emerged between among the Ukrainian community.

945
01:44:13,820 --> 01:44:16,130
And it was the need to act.

946
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:26,000
We felt that we have to contribute in any way possible to the war effort for the enormous privilege that we have of being in Oxford.

947
01:44:26,390 --> 01:44:30,890
And because we are the only voice of Ukraine that was available at the university

948
01:44:31,340 --> 01:44:37,250
without a chair for Ukrainian studies or history or any related topic.

949
01:44:38,480 --> 01:44:44,570
And another reason for this was that we have been dealing with enormous amount of stress and perhaps trauma,

950
01:44:44,990 --> 01:44:50,690
and we have to channel these negative emotions in some way. So we we collectively,

951
01:44:50,690 --> 01:44:58,190
we realised much later that actually we channelled them in a constructive way through the initiatives we have undertaken together.

952
01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:08,570
And finally in this year, I think with confidence, I can say that our society has become an ambassador of Ukraine,

953
01:45:09,050 --> 01:45:14,630
not just in Oxford, perhaps in Oxfordshire, and this is reflected in our various achievements and things we have been doing.

954
01:45:16,370 --> 01:45:20,360
So we started from rallies from the very first day of the invasion.

955
01:45:21,410 --> 01:45:26,210
This is one of the most, uh, the biggest rallies we have organised thus far,

956
01:45:27,740 --> 01:45:34,790
and it has collected £4,000 in just one hour of, um, of the speeches we were delivering.

957
01:45:38,060 --> 01:45:45,950
About a thousand people has come, including the national media, to listen what Ukrainians have to say about the full scale invasion in Oxford.

958
01:45:47,870 --> 01:45:55,160
And the motivation that we had at the time was, first of all, to generate a strong message from us as Ukrainians,

959
01:45:55,820 --> 01:45:58,640
especially about the war atrocities that Russia has been committing.

960
01:45:59,060 --> 01:46:05,270
But second of all, was to raise donations and have some immediate positive impact on the situation.

961
01:46:05,840 --> 01:46:10,160
And most of our donations were, um, went for medical supplies.

962
01:46:13,120 --> 01:46:16,420
And we have also been collecting donations physically.

963
01:46:16,690 --> 01:46:23,080
And this is a photograph from a unit in a shopping mall in in Court Market Street,

964
01:46:23,380 --> 01:46:28,630
where we have collected nearly 250 boxes of humanitarian aid and shipped them to Ukraine.

965
01:46:30,010 --> 01:46:36,760
Then we have also organised a fundraising dinner, continuously increasing our goal with with in terms of fundraising.

966
01:46:37,540 --> 01:46:47,140
This dinner welcomed a special guest list and we had an auction within that auction in Nuffield College.

967
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:53,350
We have also increased ambitions in terms of the message we want to transmit.

968
01:46:53,680 --> 01:47:00,520
So we have hosted our president in Oxford Union in a joint address to the Oxford students.

969
01:47:02,170 --> 01:47:09,850
And finally we have organised a festival of Ukrainian culture in late September which consisted of 19 different events,

970
01:47:10,150 --> 01:47:16,690
most of them concerts, but also exhibitions over the course of three days in nine different locations across Oxford.

971
01:47:17,140 --> 01:47:28,810
And we brought 42 renowned Ukrainian musicians and artists and academics from Ukraine to Oxford or from European cities where they were sheltering.

972
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:35,320
And this initiative has raised £125,000, which we have all donated.

973
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:43,840
It was launched together with three, so in partnership with two other institutions, one based here in Oxford and one in Ukraine.

974
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:50,350
And one of our most special guests was a music composer,

975
01:47:50,350 --> 01:47:54,400
which you can see holding flowers in the centre of the photo in Sylvester of

976
01:47:55,150 --> 01:48:02,410
who came here on his 85th birthday while we were organising all these events.

977
01:48:02,410 --> 01:48:05,200
And this by this time, the photo was from late September,

978
01:48:06,100 --> 01:48:11,709
Ukrainian refugees started coming to Oxfordshire and very soon we realised that Oxfordshire was one

979
01:48:11,710 --> 01:48:17,320
of the most popular destinations or perhaps the most open destinations to Ukraine and refugees,

980
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:25,210
according to the official statistics of the Oxfordshire County Council, that by July 2022.

981
01:48:25,510 --> 01:48:29,140
In Oxfordshire there were already 15,000 Ukrainian refugees.

982
01:48:29,950 --> 01:48:37,660
And that is in context of 100 Ukrainian refugees, 100,000 green refugees already accepted to the UK.

983
01:48:38,230 --> 01:48:46,390
So it's a very big proportion of Ukrainian refugees and this is a photo of an event we have organised together since the arrival.

984
01:48:47,170 --> 01:48:51,010
From April onwards we have been trying to support them as very often.

985
01:48:51,010 --> 01:48:57,400
We would be the first point of contact when they arrive to Oxfordshire in terms of any sort of support, like a job search or anything else.

986
01:48:59,140 --> 01:49:05,620
And then what is also happening is that we got 26 graduate scholars arriving shortly thereafter,

987
01:49:06,460 --> 01:49:15,100
thanks to a special scholarship that was established in record time at the same year by the president of Rubin College, by Notre Sancho.

988
01:49:15,850 --> 01:49:19,569
And here you can see the Ukrainian scholars becoming active within the Ukrainian

989
01:49:19,570 --> 01:49:24,310
society the same day or week they arrive to Oxford already in the precious thing,

990
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:30,810
and along with them over 20 academics, including the academics at risks.

991
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:38,560
So while we were building this network and trying out different initiatives,

992
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:44,200
it soon became clear that we have to unite all of these students that have arrived and try to establish a broader network.

993
01:49:44,890 --> 01:49:51,550
So we we established together with other Ukrainian societies, the first Ukrainian conference in Manchester.

994
01:49:52,030 --> 01:49:55,780
We have brought together 25 different societies.

995
01:49:56,200 --> 01:50:00,100
Usually it was one or two members of society due to a very limited budget,

996
01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:06,399
but it allowed us to make connections and reflect about all of the things that we are doing and why are

997
01:50:06,400 --> 01:50:15,970
we here in the UK what what kind of goals we set ourselves in terms of Ukraine's future reconstruction?

998
01:50:18,700 --> 01:50:25,059
Finally the incredible amount of new ideas in this narrative.

999
01:50:25,060 --> 01:50:33,790
All the Ukrainian students here, which, by the way, represented an equal portion from each faculty or so each division.

1000
01:50:34,150 --> 01:50:35,770
And all belong to different disciplines,

1001
01:50:36,070 --> 01:50:42,340
allowed us to also undertake more ambitious projects after we have worked on short term initiatives with immediate impact,

1002
01:50:42,340 --> 01:50:47,770
such as fundraising, we have tried to think of longer term initiatives that would be,

1003
01:50:47,770 --> 01:50:50,890
first of all, more sustainable in terms of how they're financed and managed.

1004
01:50:51,250 --> 01:50:51,790
The second of all,

1005
01:50:51,790 --> 01:51:02,530
that we utilise in recognising all the resources available here to Oxford and the first initiative that we have launched was the Oxford Incubator,

1006
01:51:03,130 --> 01:51:13,000
which was aimed at supporting a very vulnerable, yet very important component of our economy, which is the IT sector and innovation.

1007
01:51:13,750 --> 01:51:22,420
So what we have done is we have asked Oxford based Start-Up mentors that would be willing to mentor our selected start-ups,

1008
01:51:22,750 --> 01:51:31,120
and we have contacted various investors to try to make a match between the Start-ups, the mentors and the investors.

1009
01:51:31,690 --> 01:51:34,360
And I'm very happy to share that.

1010
01:51:34,630 --> 01:51:46,240
One of the first start-ups that have joined us has recently received the first large investment from a New York based fund,

1011
01:51:47,140 --> 01:51:57,310
and they are working on bone combing. Another aspect we have focussed on is what the actual city can offer to Ukraine.

1012
01:51:57,760 --> 01:52:04,719
So we have made a vote about choosing a city to propose to the local city council

1013
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:09,370
to create a partnership or twinning which would eventually lead to a 20.

1014
01:52:09,790 --> 01:52:20,800
And we picked Kharkiv for various reasons. First of all, it's at the frontline, so it has been majorly affected and needs immediate intervention.

1015
01:52:21,250 --> 01:52:25,450
Second of all, Kharkiv is a centre for excellence and innovation, just like Oxford is,

1016
01:52:25,780 --> 01:52:30,220
so they can be mutual mutual benefit from this kind of partnership.

1017
01:52:30,940 --> 01:52:37,900
And, um, actually today was the launch day of the OC Association just across the street.

1018
01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:47,620
So hopefully in some time Oxford will become an official twin city to you and explore many new avenues for collaboration.

1019
01:52:50,380 --> 01:52:54,400
The last thing I have done with the Ukrainian society was to organise the one

1020
01:52:54,400 --> 01:53:00,370
year Ukraine peace rally in in commemoration of all the victims of the war.

1021
01:53:00,970 --> 01:53:08,980
And it was also a powerful message of hope, but also of condemnation when the council,

1022
01:53:09,490 --> 01:53:18,430
the chancellor of the University of our platform, has given his statements and we've also received statements from local in peace,

1023
01:53:18,430 --> 01:53:19,719
from the mayor of the city,

1024
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:26,230
from the head of the Oxfordshire County Council and the founder of the Ukrainian Graduates Commission on the many other voices.

1025
01:53:27,730 --> 01:53:39,660
So why am I presenting all of this is to perhaps reflect about the possible contribution it can make to peace in Ukraine on the longer run.

1026
01:53:40,060 --> 01:53:45,130
And that could, of course, bring quantifiable impact.

1027
01:53:45,610 --> 01:53:51,460
But I decided that I do not want to focus on the money, race or any other numbers,

1028
01:53:51,820 --> 01:53:59,830
but really the human flourishing aspects of the definition of peace that was proposed to us by the peace network.

1029
01:54:01,270 --> 01:54:11,469
And what it means is that the framework of the OSCE of a student led society by student initiative allowed me personally and I

1030
01:54:11,470 --> 01:54:21,490
believe every member of the society to employ their time and skills in a way that would allow us not just to force individuals,

1031
01:54:21,490 --> 01:54:24,490
but also lead others and support such initiatives.

1032
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:32,950
And I think it's very important to remember that in such adverse conditions as in wartime, it is very important to have a source,

1033
01:54:34,330 --> 01:54:39,610
a channel through which you turn all these negative emotions and impact into something constructive,

1034
01:54:40,210 --> 01:54:46,870
and perhaps also protect yourself from very difficult and stressful periods.

1035
01:54:48,010 --> 01:54:56,170
And then the final point is that it has it is a social activity and it brings people together.

1036
01:54:57,250 --> 01:55:04,360
It can bring people together, not just in one city, but across different cities and actually across many boundaries now with thanks to technology.

1037
01:55:06,820 --> 01:55:09,610
So thinking of all these three aspects,

1038
01:55:10,750 --> 01:55:17,020
I would like to thank everyone who has been so supportive of us during the past year and perhaps invite everyone to.

1039
01:55:18,060 --> 01:55:23,970
Reflect about the potential that student led initiatives have to promoting peace in other contexts.

1040
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:36,490
Thank you. Thank you so much.

1041
01:55:36,500 --> 01:55:43,460
I'm sure there are many, many questions, but I will ask you to hold them for teatime and just just thank you.

1042
01:55:43,670 --> 01:55:47,540
And we'll move on to our final speaker, who is Diana.

1043
01:55:48,770 --> 01:55:53,870
I would also like while she's coming down, just to mention that Yaroslav, who spoke earlier,

1044
01:55:53,870 --> 01:56:00,910
is the current president of the Oxford University, Ukraine's side, so to speak, to her as well.

1045
01:56:00,950 --> 01:56:14,060
If you're interested in the society saying so, Diana is a student at Oxford, the School of Government,

1046
01:56:14,870 --> 01:56:22,880
waiting for a master's in public policy and a recipient of an Oxford scholarship for Ukrainian refugees.

1047
01:56:23,270 --> 01:56:30,290
And for the past two years, she's worked as a policy adviser in the Israeli diplomatic mission in Kiev.

1048
01:56:30,770 --> 01:56:34,820
So thank you. Thank you so much. So I'm going to be very brief,

1049
01:56:35,510 --> 01:56:41,600
but I want to talk about the role of women in war and generally the role of women in a peace process building and how

1050
01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:47,990
we can create a channel for talking between women in Ukraine and possibly women in Russia and local society in Russia.

1051
01:56:48,650 --> 01:56:53,030
So we're going to start with talking about women's role in this building.

1052
01:56:53,270 --> 01:57:00,890
And we know that from those mentioned, for example, in Afghanistan or to the sexual violence committed by Russian troops in Ukraine,

1053
01:57:01,370 --> 01:57:05,269
the rights of women and they are unfortunately role one to devastating.

1054
01:57:05,270 --> 01:57:13,100
And we currently see that women are one of the largest parts of the society there being a heart of by the atrocities of war.

1055
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:21,860
And although women are largely impacted by the conflict and paying a higher price for this devastation, unfortunately, we can see that.

1056
01:57:22,190 --> 01:57:29,630
We can see that their presence in the peacebuilding process, unfortunately, is not well represented not only in Ukraine but also around the globe.

1057
01:57:30,110 --> 01:57:35,960
And we can tell that between the 1992 and 2092, for example,

1058
01:57:36,230 --> 01:57:43,610
women serve only 6% of mediators are 7% of signatories, and so 10% of negotiations globally.

1059
01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:52,790
And also, we can tell that, unfortunately, references to women and girls and gender equality in peace agreements are also quite minimal.

1060
01:57:53,060 --> 01:58:01,520
And if we look at that analysis of the agreements that were implemented, we can tell that only 20% contain of references to women and gender rights,

1061
01:58:01,760 --> 01:58:07,550
and also only 6% contain at least one provision that specifically address violence against women.

1062
01:58:10,040 --> 01:58:15,229
Also talking about the gender of the war advocate gender violence in Ukraine.

1063
01:58:15,230 --> 01:58:24,650
We can tell that obviously out of the six, 4.8 million displaced people in Ukraine of almost 65% were women and girls.

1064
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:30,350
And I personally were working in the refugee camp in Poland in almost a few weeks.

1065
01:58:30,650 --> 01:58:36,720
And you can imagine the situation where people, mostly women, 98% of women, I would say,

1066
01:58:36,740 --> 01:58:43,250
are with children and elderly people coming to the refugee camp, which was actually situated in the supermarket,

1067
01:58:43,250 --> 01:58:47,870
and people who are transitioning all the time from the water to the supermarkets and

1068
01:58:47,870 --> 01:58:51,739
staying there for a few months and then transitioning to another station to another,

1069
01:58:51,740 --> 01:58:58,309
and then unless they find any place to leave in a bullet. So this was going on for a few months on the border.

1070
01:58:58,310 --> 01:59:07,940
And because really people and women were living in supermarkets and trying to find a place where they can go after this station that they have.

1071
01:59:09,620 --> 01:59:15,349
And we can tell also that internally women are also the one who are most in the space, as we said.

1072
01:59:15,350 --> 01:59:21,649
And obviously we can tell that from the east side and from the south part of Ukraine, they're relocated to the western part of Ukraine.

1073
01:59:21,650 --> 01:59:29,330
And also there was a difficulty for them to try to relocate and find a place for them to live, especially when they're coming with elderly people.

1074
01:59:29,330 --> 01:59:38,090
And of course, their caregivers have children, as usually men are staying in the place or they cannot cross the border or they prefer not to go.

1075
01:59:38,300 --> 01:59:42,350
So there could be also this difficulty that we have experienced to date.

1076
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:50,839
But while Russian aggression is continuing, also for recovery and for the youth building process has already begun,

1077
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:55,970
and actually to ensure that this reconstruction and peacebuilding process could happen,

1078
01:59:56,330 --> 02:00:00,530
there are an environment of women in this process is particularly important.

1079
02:00:00,530 --> 02:00:06,290
And I think that in Ukraine of the Women's Society for Gender Equality,

1080
02:00:06,290 --> 02:00:12,679
for Women's Violence play a huge role in promoting humanitarian development and support of women.

1081
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:21,890
And I think that one of the speakers mentioned that from humanitarian standpoint, we actually can start some communication between different sides.

1082
02:00:24,920 --> 02:00:32,840
Unfortunately, I can say that from the official point, women are also not that present in the representation of women at the table, for example.

1083
02:00:32,840 --> 02:00:41,250
But as I said, we. In a particularly strong part in our local society, local community and actually women.

1084
02:00:41,260 --> 02:00:44,280
Civil society is kind of holding community together.

1085
02:00:44,290 --> 02:00:50,160
And because of this strong community, I think the support and communication is possible.

1086
02:00:51,870 --> 02:00:56,040
We can also talk a little bit about the importance of involvement in the reconstruction.

1087
02:00:56,310 --> 02:01:04,139
As currently this topics are already ongoing and there are a lot of investments and construction projects that are going and especially involving

1088
02:01:04,140 --> 02:01:12,090
women in this are topics are also important and I think that from this perspective it's I'm proud to be a woman representing Ukraine here.

1089
02:01:12,090 --> 02:01:15,540
And I think we have quite a lot of scholars who are also women,

1090
02:01:15,540 --> 02:01:23,370
and they are kind of trying to lead the negotiation and communication process, not only from women, but from respect also.

1091
02:01:24,510 --> 02:01:30,270
I think that's it. Thank you so much for your attention and thank you for being this footprint.

1092
02:01:30,450 --> 02:01:46,790
Thank you so much. Thank you, Diane and Mary.

1093
02:01:46,790 --> 02:01:49,880
Thank all of the speakers this afternoon.

1094
02:01:50,810 --> 02:01:56,090
We have now got to go for tea. Should anyone be tempted to drift away?

1095
02:01:57,020 --> 02:02:04,610
Could I ask you possibly to take off your badge and leave it at the registration table before you go to say that now?

1096
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:10,100
But I hope you will stay for tea and come back for the talk by Carne Ross.

1097
02:02:10,100 --> 02:02:14,000
Carne, are you with us? Hello. Welcome.

1098
02:02:15,170 --> 02:02:18,200
Which should be a fascinating talk after tea.

1099
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:23,570
And we will then do the short exercise to allow you to reflect on what you may have learned.

1100
02:02:24,050 --> 02:02:34,400
And we will ask the speakers to give the reflections quickly on what they have learned during the day.

1101
02:02:34,850 --> 02:02:38,140
So there is an important thing to come after tea.

1102
02:02:38,150 --> 02:02:42,770
But meanwhile, please enjoy tea and come back at half past.

1103
02:03:16,620 --> 02:03:35,020
You know, like, you know. You just didn't get us to talk about it.

1104
02:03:44,500 --> 02:03:48,040
You only get the main backdrop on the screen through Coda.

1105
02:03:48,190 --> 02:03:51,880
Oh, great. There you go. So that's yours, isn't it?

1106
02:03:52,690 --> 02:03:57,520
Yes. Can you do a photo?

1107
02:04:16,870 --> 02:04:25,510
Yeah. You know what?

1108
02:04:27,030 --> 02:04:34,830
I would like to read something I didn't write there, but.

1109
02:04:43,630 --> 02:05:06,160
Yeah. I know it's.

1110
02:05:12,330 --> 02:05:22,150
How about that? But now we have our final.

1111
02:05:31,110 --> 02:05:41,930
What do you do to your face? But now you tell people what you did when you come in.

1112
02:05:45,610 --> 02:05:53,560
But you are all very, very nice to each other, right?

1113
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:58,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1114
02:05:58,690 --> 02:06:01,770
I think that I, we feel like.

1115
02:06:02,630 --> 02:06:08,220
Yeah, yeah, that part are.

1116
02:06:10,900 --> 02:06:15,640
Yeah. So what do you like a lot. Okay.

1117
02:06:50,120 --> 02:06:54,989
So I stood there and I walked up to you.

1118
02:06:54,990 --> 02:07:07,770
And you walked out down the street? Yeah.

1119
02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:17,960
My clothes service was exactly what I was.

1120
02:07:19,750 --> 02:07:25,010
I. Yeah.

1121
02:07:28,150 --> 02:07:37,980
Yeah. There are things at all.

1122
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:57,200
Yeah. You can ask yourself, like I just say computer, but that's what I'm saying.

1123
02:07:58,820 --> 02:08:09,790
What I want to do is work with data and not.

1124
02:08:14,300 --> 02:08:18,980
Is this something you are in? Oh, no, I just.

1125
02:08:19,340 --> 02:08:23,419
I just wanted to give a chance to people like that. That's the way.

1126
02:08:23,420 --> 02:08:24,110
Yeah, I just.

1127
02:08:24,350 --> 02:08:34,459
I figure out that's the way you get people's attention, is not that, you know, otherwise you have to also be hurt or something a bit at the beginning.

1128
02:08:34,460 --> 02:08:42,040
But it was not. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a better way to get some money.

1129
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:51,340
Yeah. I have my heart because I'm young.

1130
02:08:51,340 --> 02:09:03,140
I am proud of my family and I work because I do think that you can.

1131
02:09:07,370 --> 02:09:30,980
I have to go out there.

1132
02:09:37,250 --> 02:09:45,680
Like. For someone like me.

1133
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:51,390
I've learned that it is important to.

1134
02:09:55,320 --> 02:09:59,120
It. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

1135
02:10:06,240 --> 02:10:09,480
So what do you want to do? Well, I.

1136
02:10:10,180 --> 02:10:20,860
That someone can help. I think.

1137
02:10:23,010 --> 02:10:27,030
Yeah. My own personal.

1138
02:10:36,220 --> 02:10:48,900
I an. And the coolest thing about it is that.

1139
02:11:00,720 --> 02:11:11,220
I'm going to show you. I love you.

1140
02:11:16,280 --> 02:11:22,480
Yeah. It's not very pleasant.

1141
02:11:24,980 --> 02:11:41,020
And you win. But I was just. So I think that's actually what you do.

1142
02:11:41,950 --> 02:11:48,320
But you you could possibly go over the wall.

1143
02:11:49,180 --> 02:12:06,050
Would you could do it benefit to the people where they say you're going to have to do it.

1144
02:12:06,690 --> 02:12:15,590
But it's very easy for people to say, you guys don't have the answer to that question because everything works out.

1145
02:12:19,140 --> 02:12:24,950
But like you say, that's just not being there.

1146
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:33,570
Oh, I wish I knew or I heard that she was so nice to people that were like, Yeah, I lost everything just now.

1147
02:12:33,900 --> 02:12:39,680
This is crazy.

1148
02:12:40,670 --> 02:12:47,810
IS How do you like somebody who is kind of like who said.

1149
02:12:50,570 --> 02:12:57,830
Right. I was I was about 45 and one 150.

1150
02:12:59,160 --> 02:13:07,100
That's crazy. Since there was another day when you were like, uh oh, yeah.

1151
02:13:09,900 --> 02:13:18,520
Oh, yeah. It was 100 inches the first year.

1152
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:45,440
Of course, there was 1st of July 31, but it was very hard because we had to just go to think that's like else tries.

1153
02:13:48,110 --> 02:13:56,440
Q What about the. And you can't do it.

1154
02:13:58,940 --> 02:14:17,790
So I'm wondering whether some of those people.

1155
02:14:23,470 --> 02:14:39,070
They stayed in the atmosphere without food or water. This is what I'm pretty sure people in the country can do.

1156
02:14:40,600 --> 02:14:51,190
And unfortunately, it was the first time we saw some of the.

1157
02:14:51,460 --> 02:14:58,980
It's to. Oh.

1158
02:15:00,980 --> 02:15:04,390
So you're. We're trying to find a lot of that.

1159
02:15:05,080 --> 02:15:14,510
You. Before we talk about.

1160
02:15:16,350 --> 02:15:19,380
And we need to do a little bit of.

1161
02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:35,830
That's what we tried to do.

1162
02:15:37,630 --> 02:15:43,620
We were the. Yeah, exactly.

1163
02:15:49,920 --> 02:15:57,690
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how I feel.

1164
02:15:58,380 --> 02:16:10,890
Yes. I suppose they have to like, first of all to see what this was and just try.

1165
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:52,260
Be able to put food on the table so there's not a third of the four.

1166
02:16:53,260 --> 02:17:07,090
I can tell you exactly where the 6000 friends came across the brothel.

1167
02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:12,639
And I was like, Are you sure? Well, I suppose I have to write all my family, whatever.

1168
02:17:12,640 --> 02:17:24,430
Was there a 41 year old woman in the world?

1169
02:17:25,690 --> 02:17:57,180
And so I used to do that because I was kind of quiet, but I was just so I would go looking for.

1170
02:17:58,120 --> 02:18:03,990
So I'll do something with you. Yes. And you all?

1171
02:18:05,820 --> 02:18:12,700
Yeah. You to comply with all the practice.

1172
02:18:15,890 --> 02:18:27,750
I. Liverpool stressed that they are not worth.

1173
02:18:30,570 --> 02:18:36,970
In the next week or something. You know, it's pretty hard to survive. The.

1174
02:18:44,370 --> 02:18:53,820
You have. So six days, to be precise.

1175
02:18:53,910 --> 02:19:00,640
A person has got to have to have almost.

1176
02:19:02,620 --> 02:19:06,290
Really, really.

1177
02:19:11,670 --> 02:19:17,660
The project. Yeah.

1178
02:19:18,430 --> 02:19:30,540
Yeah. You know. Oh. I mean, these advertisements.

1179
02:19:40,400 --> 02:19:48,600
He has spent the past week on the beach camping in Wisconsin and still searching for that person.

1180
02:19:55,540 --> 02:20:00,250
Yeah. Couple years from now.

1181
02:20:00,380 --> 02:20:04,600
It's not quite as far as this.

1182
02:20:08,640 --> 02:20:18,350
And. I was on the side.

1183
02:20:20,650 --> 02:20:33,010
It's only. It's time to go.

1184
02:20:38,830 --> 02:20:42,000
More. The media.

1185
02:20:58,620 --> 02:21:14,220
I think that's one of the things he was saying.

1186
02:21:14,230 --> 02:21:23,070
Yeah, basically, yeah. People obviously spoke about that, but uh, they wanted to read from the stuff about.

1187
02:21:30,400 --> 02:21:39,430
It's about how many programs we need, what actually works and.

1188
02:21:41,160 --> 02:21:44,580
So that's why you see the channels out there like.

1189
02:21:46,900 --> 02:21:55,490
That should have. Tom got on a plane and this why we're winning this fight.

1190
02:21:55,720 --> 02:22:01,390
It's working right now all the time. Working is happening there.

1191
02:22:02,110 --> 02:22:06,010
And I mean, that's the thing is that the soldiers are killing.

1192
02:22:07,950 --> 02:22:14,070
They are to pregnant by. This.

1193
02:22:17,270 --> 02:22:28,770
You lost £5. So I mean, and then we have this feeling, this amazing political.

1194
02:22:51,050 --> 02:23:05,500
Yeah. I have a similar.

1195
02:23:08,770 --> 02:23:33,970
We have. We don't know about this state violence, war and civil war.

1196
02:23:49,710 --> 02:23:53,110
Just. Just stay in touch. No.

1197
02:23:58,630 --> 02:24:12,870
I wasn't sure. And it has reached new heights here this week.

1198
02:24:23,830 --> 02:24:32,940
Yeah, I think. You have to speak to that.

1199
02:25:48,350 --> 02:27:31,860
When? Well.

1200
02:27:35,630 --> 02:27:40,430
So, you know.

1201
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:53,290
You have. I am.

1202
02:27:55,750 --> 02:28:44,690
Now. You know.

1203
02:29:19,690 --> 02:29:36,230
See why. Yeah.

1204
02:29:39,590 --> 02:29:43,780
I know a lot of.

1205
02:30:11,220 --> 02:30:20,150
But. U.S. secretary of.

1206
02:30:23,550 --> 02:30:41,510
Longer. And.

1207
02:30:45,530 --> 02:30:51,110
That. Yeah.

1208
02:31:04,340 --> 02:31:20,350
Yeah. Tax reform. Food groups.

1209
02:31:23,220 --> 02:31:30,450
So fast forward for about 15 minutes. Okay, we do.

1210
02:31:32,380 --> 02:31:47,970
Yes. And do you? Yeah.

1211
02:31:48,350 --> 02:31:52,710
Have a. I think it's.

1212
02:31:56,110 --> 02:32:08,430
So I'm just going to. Anyway, I.

1213
02:32:14,710 --> 02:32:19,060
Speakers can just say one word.

1214
02:32:19,060 --> 02:32:29,340
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah.

1215
02:32:31,140 --> 02:33:01,080
The microphones. Yeah, it's just running. So.

1216
02:33:31,340 --> 02:33:34,540
These are for the millions here in the U.S. Thank you very much.