1 00:00:02,830 --> 00:00:08,860 In London, I was quite intrigued that people really were quite fascinated by the title. 2 00:00:08,860 --> 00:00:14,860 Participants actually joked about it, enquired whether their flat was disobedient enough. 3 00:00:14,860 --> 00:00:21,550 They felt that somehow it was linked with civil disobedience and activism in Romania. 4 00:00:21,550 --> 00:00:31,090 Some participants questioned the meaning of disobedience. They often questioned the results of our project and the usefulness of it, they said. 5 00:00:31,090 --> 00:00:35,500 Will this project help us or will the project have the world in any way? 6 00:00:35,500 --> 00:00:46,210 In a sense, in the Norwegian context, I think this kind of co-design and participatory led project is in itself a disobedient practise, 7 00:00:46,210 --> 00:01:07,690 especially if you compare it with the ideals of modernism and these ideals from from the post-war era when the buildings we're looking at were built. 8 00:01:07,690 --> 00:01:15,190 Welcome to the Disobedient Buildings Podcast, an AHRC funded project at the University of Oxford. 9 00:01:15,190 --> 00:01:25,360 Our focus is on the everyday lives of people living in ageing blocks of flats in three European countries the UK, Romania and Norway. 10 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:31,390 In this episode, the team will introduce some of the key topics that feature in season one. 11 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:38,140 We hope to contextualise some of the conversations we had with a variety of experts working in housing, 12 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:44,200 ranging from architects and academics to designers and activists. 13 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,550 My name is Inge Daniels. 14 00:01:45,550 --> 00:01:53,650 I'm a professor of anthropology at the University of Oxford and the principal investigator on the Disobedient Buildings Project. 15 00:01:53,650 --> 00:01:59,890 And over the past year, I've been conducting empirical research in blocks of flats in central London. 16 00:01:59,890 --> 00:02:09,730 For today's discussion, I will be joined by the two postdoctoral researchers on the project Gabriela Nicolescu and Anna Andersen. 17 00:02:09,730 --> 00:02:14,970 I'm Gabriela Nicolescu, an anthropologist and a curator for this project. 18 00:02:14,970 --> 00:02:21,130 I conduct research in Bucharest, the capital of Romania, in a post socialist context. 19 00:02:21,130 --> 00:02:29,020 Yes. Hi, my name is Anna Andersen, and I am an architectural historian and also a filmmaker. 20 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:42,560 And in this project, I've been working on Norway and more specifically, Oslo. 21 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:48,680 I would like to start our discussion by clarifying the title of the project, a disobedient buildings. 22 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:56,660 So in my view, the ageing high rise buildings we study can be called disobedient for two reasons. 23 00:02:56,660 --> 00:03:04,160 Firstly, they're materially disobedient. So by which I mean that over time, the physical structure has decayed. 24 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:12,710 And this, coupled with maintenance and management issues, often has led to a real impact on the health and safety of inhabitants. 25 00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:23,720 This material disobedience can also be extended, for example, to unruly interiors like messy storage spaces or dangerous cables or plugs. 26 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,640 But also, the inhabitants within the buildings and the flats can be disobedience. 27 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,310 For example, their bodies have aged over time. 28 00:03:31,310 --> 00:03:39,500 There might be disability issues, or even the make up of the household might be quite different from what we see as the standard nuclear family. 29 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:44,690 Like, people might be living alone, we might have same sex couples etc. 30 00:03:44,690 --> 00:03:54,710 But I also think that this kind of material disobedience can be linked with more intangible disobedience like sounds, smells or moods. 31 00:03:54,710 --> 00:04:01,130 So that's one way in which I would think about disobedience, but also in a more conceptual way. 32 00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:09,500 Disobedience of the buildings is linked with how they used to be the pinnacle of modernity and technological innovation. 33 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:13,670 But then over time, they have not quite fulfilled this promise. 34 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:14,510 They have failed. 35 00:04:14,510 --> 00:04:22,670 If you want to sustain the original context in which they were produced and the ideologies they were associated with and topologies are, 36 00:04:22,670 --> 00:04:26,330 of course, very aware that we, we conceptualise and frame. 37 00:04:26,330 --> 00:04:31,760 Our research is often very different from how people experience things in practise. 38 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:43,590 And I think it would therefore be interesting to discuss whether during our fieldwork disobedience did or did not emerge as a team on the ground. 39 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:52,110 In Romania, it's interesting that some participants, especially in their 60s, educated in the historical materialism of their time, 40 00:04:52,110 --> 00:05:02,250 questioned the meaning of disobedience, and they often questioned the results of our project and the usefulness of it, they said. 41 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:07,050 Will this project help us or will the project have the world in any way? 42 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:15,450 But after a few months of research, I think people realised that they wanted to show me their life in the blocks and 43 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:20,220 they they just tell me stories about how they are happy with the life they live, 44 00:05:20,220 --> 00:05:26,490 or the fact that the block is surrounded by vegetation or some other stories are 45 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:32,220 stories of people not liking the the sounds or the that their neighbours do, 46 00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:41,850 or the way the neighbours throw their waste. And they think that by telling me these stories, they implicitly talk about disobedient neighbours. 47 00:05:41,850 --> 00:05:49,620 And in episode three, you up one, Konstantinos talks about the lack of trust that Romanians have in state institutions. 48 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:59,070 And I think in this context, the lack of trust in institutions can be connected in very fruitful ways with the term disobedience. 49 00:05:59,070 --> 00:06:03,780 Yeah. And I mean the the borrowed, I'm focussing on them in Oslo. 50 00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:13,080 It is located centrally in the city, and it is an exceptionally diverse population who lives in this this area. 51 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,900 And it is interesting during fieldwork to see how even individuals who live in in 52 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:24,900 the area position themselves within this very diverse population and and also 53 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:30,870 how they see their own role in certain frictions that could take place between 54 00:06:30,870 --> 00:06:37,200 groups and and also how certain behaviours then are experienced as disobedience, 55 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,420 such as making noise at night. 56 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:49,950 For example, in the fourth episode of the podcast, I speak with the Jack Hughes and Elsa Abrahamsen from the architectural firm Maker's Hub. 57 00:06:49,950 --> 00:06:58,590 In this episode, they speak about the fact that they work with the forgotten people and the forgotten spaces of this borough. 58 00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:05,910 And what they found is that participatory methods and also co-designing with the people who live in the 59 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:15,090 area has proven quite powerful in terms of empowering people and making people heard in a different way. 60 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:25,830 In a sense, in the Norwegian context, I think this kind of co-design and participatory led project is in itself a disobedient practise, 61 00:07:25,830 --> 00:07:29,700 especially if you compare it with, as he was saying in the intro, 62 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:41,910 with the ideals of modernism and these ideals from from the post-war era, when the buildings we're looking at were built in the seventh episode, 63 00:07:41,910 --> 00:07:51,480 I speak with with Tom Davies, who is working on a Ph.D. in conservation and works at the Olso School of Architecture and Design. 64 00:07:51,480 --> 00:08:00,390 And I think he's he's stressing that in processes of preservation and maintenance and rehabilitation of these buildings, 65 00:08:00,390 --> 00:08:08,220 we need to not only think about the material elements of rehabilitation and preservation, 66 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:13,350 but also communities and social relations should be preserved. 67 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:26,460 And it's interesting then to see how maybe also disobedient practises and disobedience need to be included in in these approaches to preservation. 68 00:08:26,460 --> 00:08:28,470 That's a very interesting idea. 69 00:08:28,470 --> 00:08:39,030 And also, Gabriela, to look at how in the different cultural context, in a way disobedience was approached quite differently, I think, in London. 70 00:08:39,030 --> 00:08:46,620 I was quite intrigued that people really were quite fascinated by the title, and many participants actually, I mean, 71 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:54,640 joked about it and they enquired whether their flat was disobedient enough to participate even in the project. 72 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:04,230 And I think one of the reasons for this is that they they felt that somehow it was linked with civil disobedience and activism, 73 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:06,660 that that's what the project was interested in. 74 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:16,470 Quite a few people actually asked me if the project could help them in their fight against redevelopment plans or regeneration projects in the area, 75 00:09:16,470 --> 00:09:20,190 but a bit like what Gabriela was saying earlier in London. 76 00:09:20,190 --> 00:09:26,370 Also, people highlighted that other people in their blocks we're not obeying rules or regulations 77 00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:32,550 that was quite strong of feeling people had about what disobedience was or could be. 78 00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:41,570 And the examples given to me were things like fire safety, for example, people leaving buggies, but also shopping. 79 00:09:41,570 --> 00:09:43,880 Cards and other things, 80 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:53,150 DIY modules in the hallways that are also fire escapes that was often mentioned or waste collection where people would leave rubbish in 81 00:09:53,150 --> 00:10:07,150 the corridors or actually breaking corporate rules that was mentioned many times during my fieldwork with people not wearing masks. 82 00:10:07,150 --> 00:10:11,590 But it's perhaps interesting to think more generally about rules and regulations, 83 00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:22,240 and this actually became quite central to our project in many ways because we were supposed to start our fieldwork in all three countries in May 2020. 84 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:27,430 But then, of course, COVID happened and we had to rethink our research. 85 00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:34,960 And in a way, our own project became disobedient, which is quite hilarious in a way. 86 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,880 So we had to rethink and how could we do in-depth research from afar? 87 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,500 How could we collect materials for exhibitions when we were not able to meet people 88 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:49,780 even for a long period of time or not even able to leave our homes if you want? 89 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:55,060 So we designed and circulated research backs that contained a number of tools, 90 00:10:55,060 --> 00:11:02,680 and these tools were again disobedient in that they were not the digital online methods that many people were using, 91 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:08,830 but they were paper based and low-tech tools like postcards, disposable cameras, 92 00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:19,790 maps that allowed participants of all ages and backgrounds to study their own homes in their own space and time. 93 00:11:19,790 --> 00:11:29,570 So during the podcast, we asked the experts participating in our interviews to engage with some of these packed materials. 94 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:33,860 And so I thought it would be interesting if you and I and Gabriella could tell 95 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:39,590 us how the packs were actually received by your participants in the field. 96 00:11:39,590 --> 00:11:43,640 Yeah, I mean, it's been very intriguing to to get these packs, 97 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:51,170 but it's always exciting to see postcards arriving in the post or when the pack being returned. 98 00:11:51,170 --> 00:12:01,370 And I think one of the things that I found quite incredible is that when when you do receive a pack and you complete it in your home at your own pace, 99 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:09,230 at least from my participants, I do feel that they are being quite honest and, you know, sharing, you know, 100 00:12:09,230 --> 00:12:17,340 intimate stories and about their own lives, which has been quite wonderful to see in terms of the tasks. 101 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:26,450 I think my personal favourite is the disposable camera, and I've gotten feedback from many of the participants who enjoyed it, 102 00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:33,770 but also felt quite frustrated because we're so used to taking pictures with their cameras now on the phone. 103 00:12:33,770 --> 00:12:38,300 Then we could just delete. We could look at them, we could change small things. 104 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:40,940 Whereas a disposable camera, 105 00:12:40,940 --> 00:12:51,770 you have one attempt and you could look at it until after the film has been processed and we're not used to taking photos in that way. 106 00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:56,030 Most of us. So people felt a bit like they were uncertain. 107 00:12:56,030 --> 00:13:02,450 Did they, you know, manage to make the flash work? Did they frame what they wanted to frame when with the camera? 108 00:13:02,450 --> 00:13:13,700 But I think the result when we got it back was something that was quite raw and unedited and sometimes, you know, filled with, let's say, mistakes. 109 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:23,090 And to me, that but also again, like gave a great insight, I think, into the everyday life of people's homes. 110 00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:28,280 And and the result is something that is highly, highly subjective. 111 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:36,530 Some participants, they've been curious of why we are asking the questions that we are asking. 112 00:13:36,530 --> 00:13:44,450 Others experience the Packs as a bit unconventional. I think we're used to participating in research studies. 113 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:53,090 You get a form to fill out the boxes to tick and then we have very, very open questions. 114 00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:57,440 And for some, that was refreshing and fun. 115 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:06,290 But others felt that the openness actually was a bit frustrating because then they started wondering, what is it actually that we're looking for? 116 00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:09,950 And they thought it was difficult to answer the questions. 117 00:14:09,950 --> 00:14:19,040 But I think what I really enjoyed with the podcast is that we received the packs and then we do follow up with conversations. 118 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,990 If we were able to meet outdoors, we could go for walks and walk the route of the map. 119 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:33,110 People dream of the neighbourhoods or we would bring photographs they've taken and then based pages would be conversation starters. 120 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:38,690 And the material we go back definitely shows what the participants are interested in. 121 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:53,390 And then that could kind of guide the questions and then lead us into understanding more about the everyday lives of people living in books and plots. 122 00:14:53,390 --> 00:15:03,380 I felt that the packs were a wonderful tool, especially in this in these times of of the COVID pandemic, 123 00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:10,160 and I think that generally participants in Bucharest responded well to the parks. 124 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,860 They took time and invested a lot of energy and creativity into taking good images, 125 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:25,790 into making nice maps, writing postcards and collecting different items for our possible exhibition. 126 00:15:25,790 --> 00:15:30,710 Participants in the social bloc told me that he did not clean on purpose his 127 00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:36,800 flat before taking pictures because he wanted me to see his modest income. 128 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,620 But she said she's an exception. 129 00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:48,820 Most of the people invested a lot of time into cleaning their flats before taking pictures, and I think I was talking to one participant, 130 00:15:48,820 --> 00:15:55,940 and she said that one day she spent one day to clean the flat and at the end, take the pictures, write the card. 131 00:15:55,940 --> 00:16:01,550 Eight hours. She spent two to do everything that she was. 132 00:16:01,550 --> 00:16:06,320 She wanted to do fill in amongst Romanian participants. 133 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:14,180 Many people were not sure that they completed the tasks correctly, and they were asking me, Did I took the picture right? 134 00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:18,790 Do they have enough light? What a pity. I didn't do the pictures and very often they. 135 00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:28,420 Continued to take other pictures with their own mobile and send me other images through via WhatsApp for the podcast. 136 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:39,040 I have used, for example, materials I draw on on dust bags because Bucharest is one of the most polluted capitals in Europe. 137 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:47,740 And indeed, the discussion with Stefan Ghenciulescu from episode three went into that direction. 138 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:58,870 So after discussing the dust bag with Stefan Ghenciulescu, we started to talk about the number of cars in Bucharest and how polluted the city is. 139 00:16:58,870 --> 00:17:05,050 Then I also wanted to draw on the letters that participants wrote. 140 00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:13,000 Many of them have a common fear, and they express it through through the letters. 141 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:25,200 It is related to earthquakes, and it's it's interesting to see how from a letter and from the fear of one of the participants about earthquakes. 142 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:31,540 Asked if I could get earthquakes has been a very interesting topic that not many of us would imagine. 143 00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:32,410 For example, 144 00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:40,930 was that exist inside people's homes if one person cuts one important wall in their flat to the entire structure of the bloc is compromised. 145 00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:50,020 And for the Romanian context, this is it's very important because earthquakes happen quite often, but they are not very strong. 146 00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:56,170 But when they are stronger, they have had huge impacts and many people died. 147 00:17:56,170 --> 00:18:01,600 I think I would very strongly agree with both of you that the packs were a positive. 148 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:08,830 If you want a positive surprise, I'll say that because I've conducted lots of previous research in people's homes. 149 00:18:08,830 --> 00:18:13,270 I always saw the packs as an emergency measure. 150 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:14,950 I think, as Anna said, 151 00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:24,160 that we would follow up with fieldwork that this was just something to to get us through the pandemic and the lockdowns initially. 152 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:32,650 But I was surprised to see how well the packs worked. So it was a bit of an experiment, I think, where we weren't sure what was going to happen. 153 00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:38,950 So where we tried to salvage as much as we could from the project and use this new methodology. 154 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:43,270 But again, like I mentioned me myself as well, 155 00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:50,860 I was intrigued by how intimate the packs or the level of intimacy of the packs better 156 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:58,180 and how they enable me to get to know the people without even meeting them if you want. 157 00:18:58,180 --> 00:18:59,560 But also the other way around. 158 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:07,690 I think it's the first time I've conducted research with people about their homes where they were very open from the start. 159 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:13,030 Normally, it would take me much longer for people to open up like that and tell me stories, 160 00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:18,400 quite personal stories about their homes and their lives within. 161 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:28,900 Perhaps another thing that occurred in London with the packs was that people really love handmade nature of them, and I actually made them myself. 162 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:35,260 All the packs, actually 120, have counted in my kitchen in London, so it was a labour of love, I can say. 163 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:39,550 And then of course, there had to be shipped to Bucharest and Oslo, 164 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:49,750 and at that time there were only two courier services and the very trusted post office that enabled us to continue our research in that way, 165 00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:53,530 I think, which is also fascinating if one thinks about it. 166 00:19:53,530 --> 00:20:03,550 But I think in London, this stress on the handmade is very much linked with a real boom in craft and making, particularly during lockdown one. 167 00:20:03,550 --> 00:20:07,080 I think so. People really took in a positive way to adapt. 168 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:15,610 Then another point I think in London with the packs was that a lot of the people actually that I could reach with the packs were living on their own. 169 00:20:15,610 --> 00:20:23,200 Many of them elderly. And I think it was a really welcome distraction for many reasons when they were stuck alone at home. 170 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:30,880 And people have really mentioned that, that it kept them focused or it gave them something to do if you want. 171 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:37,390 But also, as lockdowns diminished or things opened up, 172 00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:45,190 people talked about doing the task together with children and grandchildren and the packs becoming the kind of social activity, 173 00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:49,630 which I think is something I hadn't expected that would happen. 174 00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:52,510 So that's positive things about the packs. 175 00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:58,900 But I also think, as Anna mentioned already, we should think a little bit about the limitations of the pack. 176 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:05,890 We talked already about the photographs and the people's frustration with not being able to edit, but other limitations. 177 00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:11,320 For example, I'm very aware that there were many people that we could not reach with the packs, 178 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:18,800 minorities, migrant populations, but also people that were less used to the the way the pack. 179 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Were like there were art, craft based tasks like taking photos, making maps, 180 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:33,260 but all the also issues with language because quite a few of the tools were text based, like writing postcards, writing letters. 181 00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:42,410 So I think from the feedback I got that people felt uncomfortable or unfamiliar with how it impacts worked, and often packs got lost. 182 00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:49,520 They were never returned. The thing menu for that reason, but also participants later when I contacted them and we could meet, 183 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,930 they were happy to participate, but they didn't want to do the packs, for example. 184 00:21:53,930 --> 00:22:01,880 And finally, perhaps dimensions, of course, during a time of such serious crises as we had with the pandemic, 185 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:07,070 many people might have thought this is not a thing, an important thing to do at this time. 186 00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:12,890 And I think this raises questions about even doing research during a disaster, I think, 187 00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:19,670 which is something that anthropologists have been thinking about a lot recently and whether people 188 00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:31,360 are at all ready to do this kind of research during the pandemic itself while it's happening. 189 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:39,790 Thank you for listening to the Disobedient Buildings podcast, edited by Anna Andersen and produced by Jack Soper. 190 00:22:39,790 --> 00:22:51,730 If you want to hear more, go to our website at WWw Dot Disobedient Buildings dot com or search for a podcast where you normally find your podcasts. 191 00:22:51,730 --> 00:23:00,640 In the next episode, I will take you to London to speak to Danny Dorling, Professor of Geography at the University of Oxford. 192 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:21,504 What are the most pressing housing issues in London today?