I can remember this for the welfare state, for my parents was new and they weren't socialist or anything.
They were ordinary, middle class, low middle-class couple, but they just thought it was amazing.
And I remember my father saying to me, So proud, is it?
Do you know Jacqueline? You could never starve in this country.
You could never starve in this country because this state would look after you.
And if we came back down to food banks, he would be utterly devastated.
This is the fifth episode of the Disobedient Buildings Podcast, an AHRC funded project at the University of Oxford.
Our focus is on the everyday lives of people living in ageing blocks of flats in three European countries the UK, Romania and Norway.
My name is Inge Daniels, and today I will take you to London, where I speak with Jackie Peacock,
director of Advice for Renters, an organisation that supports renters in London.
We will discuss the dire situation of many renters in London today.
We were originally set up by renters themselves,
people with private landlords who have always had a pretty rough deal and they came together
over 30 years ago because they wanted to work collectively to fight for better rights.
Tenants are always at the core of our work, and they're always because over the years there was less and less advice available for private tenants.
We started developing specialist legal advice team and that remains the core of our work.
But because renters get very little support anywhere else, and you know,
we realise that somebody comes to us because there's a hole in the roof, the rain is coming in, the landlord won't fix it.
We will deal with that will force the landlord to repair the roof.
But it's not all we do, and in a few months later, they'll be back with some other problem.
So we try and help people in the round. We have developed, for example, a lot of financial inclusion services.
So, you know, it's a living. If they're on a low income, they're living at the bottom end of the market.
The conditions are very poor. They're probably struggling to pay their rent.
They may need help with sorting out welfare benefits or just help with budgeting.
Basically, we'll have idea as to how they might be able to improve their income.
And similarly, we look at fuel poverty because again, homes at the lower end of those sectors are very often the least energy efficient,
and tenants are not only struggling to pay the rent, but also struggling to pay the gas and electricity bills.
So we provide services in that area, and we also have a brilliant and really valuable team of volunteer mentors who we
train to work one to one with our clients so our solicitors may help them go to court,
defend their possession or whatever it is. We may help them to challenge fuel bills and switch to a different, a cheaper tariff or provider.
But then a mentor will help people through that process,
so it could be anything from helping them get all their paperwork together for the solicitor to helping them.
If, say, we're forced along or put in central heating, the mentor will show them how to work the thermostat,
you know, or behavioural changes, which will help reduce their energy bills further.
And would you say, is there a particular kind of constituency? Is it a certain age group or is it all across the board people you see coming?
It is across the board, but most of our work is done under a contract with legal aid agencies, so people have to hurdles to get legal aid.
One is it's means tested and so people are on a low income and also the legal aid contract is restricted in scope and ridiculously, it's not.
The scope is basically people in crisis. So I sometimes say if somebody comes to us because they've got cracks in the ceiling under legal aid,
we'd have to say we'll come back in a year or two. It's time when your ceiling is collapsed and then we can help you.
Quite stupid. You know, a little dispute with the landlord come back in a year's time when he started possession proceedings, then we can help you.
But fortunately, we don't have to say that because we we do get other grant funding from charitable trusts to help
us to enable us to deal with those issues that aren't that fall outside the scope of legal aid.
But but nevertheless, we are a charity, of course, and so we are we we exist help people who are in poverty.
The area that where we're based is in the London borough of Brent, which is one of several boroughs in Brent,
where the majority of residents are from black and ethnic minority communities.
So they are the majority of our clients.
It's very it's fascinating the boroughs in London and how different they are.
Indeed, there is poverty everywhere in London, I think as well.
The city does attract very rich people, but but also not just rich people who want to live in London,
but rich people who want to invest in London so they may have no other interest.
And that is, you know, traditionally and sadly, it seems to be increasing that London is seen as a tax haven.
Because our taxes are all geared more towards helping rich people and poor people.
One of the reasons that there is.
Is such poverty and such problems with people being forced to live in poor housing is that rich people just invest in London in property,
and they're not even bothered whether it's occupied or not. So we will have some of the most expensive property in London,
which is just sitting there empty while some people are actually sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to go.
I mean, if you come as a tourist and you're looking around central London, you'll probably be very impressed because it is a beautiful city.
Not only a lot of historical buildings that are still used to well-maintained, but also a lot of new developments.
You know, all the new development may look very nice, but it's actually making the problem worse.
The impact is, of course, that it is forcing up prices even more and forcing communities who may have lived in the area for a long time.
They are gradually being forced out. The current government is very, very keen on promoting homeownership.
And of course, some people want to own their homes. We're not saying that they shouldn't want to or they shouldn't be able to.
But it is completely distorting the market. And for decades now, we've had social housing tenants have had the right to buy.
And of course, all the ones who could afford to buy are buying the better properties,
which is just adding to the housing crisis, going back to private developers.
What we've realised unpacking it one of the reasons they're reluctant to provide more is not really because the scheme wouldn't.
The figures were not off.
It's because private homeowners do not want to live near social housing tenants and therefore if the developer builds too much social housing.
That will lower the value of the houses in a building to sell to owner occupiers.
I mean, anybody I've talked to says it's building more social housing is going to alleviate some of this pressure everywhere.
There is absolutely no question at all. We need a massive building programme for social housing, but I have to say that that isn't the sole answer,
partly because if we did have a building programme of that magnitude, we wouldn't be able to meet our carbon emission targets.
But also, if you look across the board, there is actually enough housing.
I mean, the song I read the other day is research, which I think I think it's something that 53 percent of households are under occupying.
And I think for every for every head of the population, there's more than one bedroom,
you know, some not two to three bedrooms or something like that. So we also have lots of other empty buildings,
and I think now is an opportunity because one thing seems to be generally agreed is that
people aren't going to be all going back to their office full time as they were before.
There are a lot of buildings are under use and I know that we need to be really cautious about trying to simply convert,
say, office or industrial buildings in housing. It doesn't always work.
Some may have to be demolished, but the land is still there and could be used for essential housing.
I think one of the things that probably is.
It's not unique, it is deeply, deeply embedded in English culture in a way that it isn't in with other nationalities is our class culture.
It has, you know, we don't talk about class anymore, but it has not gone away.
That has not gone away. And housing is unique.
I mean, you know, the private rented sector has really changed very little since feudal times.
Since you had the Lord of the Manor that owned all the land and that was probably gifted to him by the sovereign.
And they built, you know, more homes for the people who work the land for them.
And even today, we still talk about the land Lord. You're right, that class structure is still inherently there.
You see that there as well. No, I agree. But I will move on a some of the participants that I'm working with live in,
as I told you earlier in these blocks that were built during the 60s and 70s.
So I thought it might be interesting for you to look at the photos first.
And I wonder if you could just describe these blocks for us and perhaps give us your first impressions just if you saw these blocks,
what you would think about them. From the outside, they look OK.
Probably depends largely on the the maintenance, whether that was planned,
adequate planning and inadequate reactive procedures to deal with problems that individual tenants have.
And I just as an example, I I given you one person who's Andrew who lives in this block in Soho, but he's kind of talking about maintenance issues.
One is leaks, which have come within a month when the second one is construction around the block, which is going on for years.
When I first started working in housing, local authority housing officers would have each officer would probably have
40-60 tenants on that patch and they would be able to visit them regularly.
They would know each other, they'd form a relationship. You know, they would actually call and ask if anything needed being done.
You know, over the years, it was cut.
And so and now I don't know how many there have probably hundreds.
The job is, you know, partly because there's the opportunity to save money and also because funding cuts have been forced to economise.
So it is largely automated service now. So. And I was really shocked when I tried to ring the housing officer on behalf of the client a few years ago.
Now it's been like this for ages and you can't oh, you can't speak directly to a housing officer.
You know, just the phones just not set up, you know, set up to prevent you being able to speak to your housing officer.
So everything has to be done online, which is again, if you, you know,
if people are older or they don't have broadband or access to the internet, that's a huge problem for people and everything goes through.
Really, bureaucratic system is completely dehumanised.
And what's more, is less efficient.
And I was speaking to a tenant, you know, the day it is temporary accommodation, but it's managed by a housing association.
She reported that her cooker was defective last October, and they sent someone round to condemn it, and she's still waiting for a replacement.
And this is a woman with four young children. I suppose there are some savings, but there are also costs,
because if you have that real human relationship between your housing officer and the tenant,
if the tenants just lost their job or if they're struggling to pay the rent,
they're going to tell you that and you're going to be able to help them to budget or make some arrangement or make sure they're claiming benefits,
whatever it is that an early stage will now. The debts are just going to mount.
Other people have told me this and often very quick turnover of staff, if there is staff.
And frankly, I think the people have good intentions or some people care individuals, but everything is outsourced.
You kind of the system doesn't allow empathy, basically.
And this man as well. This is one because the other issue is in London, of course, there is the repair to the building,
but then having no control of the area around you, what happens as well?
And most people in lockstep is completely worried about redevelopment coming.
I mean, I've been working directly with our black communities on a project called Fair Housing,
and the aim of it is really to help the people who are hardest hit who are in the worst housing.
You are the victims of the housing crisis to actually understand the reasons for it and the fact that it is inevitable,
and to help them to speak directly for themselves to the people who.
Has the power to make the radical systemic changes that we need to put things right?
The things that families. In the worst accommodation, not saying whether the homes in temporary accommodation or really poor conditions,
one of the reasons they want to be somewhere settled and have a rent they can afford is because they have, like anyone else, aspirations.
They don't want to be on benefits all their life. They want to work.
Some of the most studying with the hope that eventually there may be in a position where they can get a reasonable job,
which gives them job satisfaction, and also they can bring up the family in the way that they want to.
And yet everything conspires to stop them doing that.
I assume even the people you've been working with, they might not live in blocks, but as you said, some of these issues are the same,
but also whether you have experience with the pandemic, whether health and wellbeing,
whether there has been a change or as the situation got even more desperate for people.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there is no. It's no coincidence that Brent has got a high black population, disadvantaged population,
and it is, I think, the second or third highest number of COVID deaths.
But it is linked with the House. I mean, we know that if you live in a cold, damp home, you're more likely to get, you know,
you have a little immune system and you're more likely to suffer respiratory disease.
On your website that you sent and I just quote a little bit, you said that one of your goals is to transform the renting sector,
private rented sector through legal advice,
as well as to campaigning and telling policymakers what the problems are and what they what they can do to solve them.
I think that, you know, at a local level, we have a big relationship with the local authority,
and I think we probably have some influence, probably not as much as we'd like and probably more so in some areas than others, I think.
And one really good example of forward thinking, if you like what Brendan is set up community hubs,
which are run by both brent staff and the voluntary sector, you know, the people who come don't know whether it's council voluntary sector.
Who is helping them, it's just the hub and it's really open, everyone was together outside of pandemic before that.
It was just a drop in. Anybody can walk in needed advice.
They'd be dealt with by the most appropriate people.
In a way, it's very much echoes the way advice for renters works, and it sees people first and foremost.
It sees a person on their potential on the hub really echoes that kind of approach.
But on the other hand, we do get frustrated that local authorities are not given the resources or the strategic
input into using their powers as effectively as they could to improve housing conditions.
Because I'm so old, I can remember what it was like before.
When I was 18, I went to do my own stint in Paris.
That was the first time I saw people sleeping rough on the streets, and I really remember saying,
Thank God, that could never happen in London because we had a real welfare state.
Now somebody had come along one day, one day and zero in election manifesto.
We're going to rip up the welfare state. They would never have got elected, but it's been salami sliced.
So every single little slice people haven't noticed.
We don't have a welfare state in this country anymore.
That's why I am bringing the people who are suffering now to get them to understand this isn't inevitable.
We could have a welfare state again.
Thank you for listening to the Disobedient Buildings podcast edited by Anna Andersen and produced by Jack Soper.
If you want to hear more,
go to our website at WW Dot Disobedient Buildings dot com or search for a podcast where you normally find your podcasts in the next episode.
Gabriela Nicolescu takes you to Bucharest to speak with Ilinca Păun-Constantinescu,
lecturer at the University of Architecture and Urbanism, Bucharest.
to discuss Romania's shrinking cities