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I can remember this for the welfare state, for my parents was new and they weren't socialist or anything.

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They were ordinary, middle class, low middle-class couple, but they just thought it was amazing.

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And I remember my father saying to me, So proud, is it?

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Do you know Jacqueline? You could never starve in this country.

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You could never starve in this country because this state would look after you.

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And if we came back down to food banks, he would be utterly devastated.

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This is the fifth episode of the Disobedient Buildings Podcast, an AHRC funded project at the University of Oxford.

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Our focus is on the everyday lives of people living in ageing blocks of flats in three European countries the UK, Romania and Norway.

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My name is Inge Daniels, and today I will take you to London, where I speak with Jackie Peacock,

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director of Advice for Renters, an organisation that supports renters in London.

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We will discuss the dire situation of many renters in London today.

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We were originally set up by renters themselves,

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people with private landlords who have always had a pretty rough deal and they came together

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over 30 years ago because they wanted to work collectively to fight for better rights.

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Tenants are always at the core of our work, and they're always because over the years there was less and less advice available for private tenants.

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We started developing specialist legal advice team and that remains the core of our work.

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But because renters get very little support anywhere else, and you know,

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we realise that somebody comes to us because there's a hole in the roof, the rain is coming in, the landlord won't fix it.

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We will deal with that will force the landlord to repair the roof.

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But it's not all we do, and in a few months later, they'll be back with some other problem.

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So we try and help people in the round. We have developed, for example, a lot of financial inclusion services.

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So, you know, it's a living. If they're on a low income, they're living at the bottom end of the market.

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The conditions are very poor. They're probably struggling to pay their rent.

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They may need help with sorting out welfare benefits or just help with budgeting.

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Basically, we'll have idea as to how they might be able to improve their income.

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And similarly, we look at fuel poverty because again, homes at the lower end of those sectors are very often the least energy efficient,

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and tenants are not only struggling to pay the rent, but also struggling to pay the gas and electricity bills.

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So we provide services in that area, and we also have a brilliant and really valuable team of volunteer mentors who we

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train to work one to one with our clients so our solicitors may help them go to court,

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defend their possession or whatever it is. We may help them to challenge fuel bills and switch to a different, a cheaper tariff or provider.

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But then a mentor will help people through that process,

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so it could be anything from helping them get all their paperwork together for the solicitor to helping them.

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If, say, we're forced along or put in central heating, the mentor will show them how to work the thermostat,

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you know, or behavioural changes, which will help reduce their energy bills further.

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And would you say, is there a particular kind of constituency? Is it a certain age group or is it all across the board people you see coming?

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It is across the board, but most of our work is done under a contract with legal aid agencies, so people have to hurdles to get legal aid.

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One is it's means tested and so people are on a low income and also the legal aid contract is restricted in scope and ridiculously, it's not.

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The scope is basically people in crisis. So I sometimes say if somebody comes to us because they've got cracks in the ceiling under legal aid,

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we'd have to say we'll come back in a year or two. It's time when your ceiling is collapsed and then we can help you.

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Quite stupid. You know, a little dispute with the landlord come back in a year's time when he started possession proceedings, then we can help you.

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But fortunately, we don't have to say that because we we do get other grant funding from charitable trusts to help

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us to enable us to deal with those issues that aren't that fall outside the scope of legal aid.

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But but nevertheless, we are a charity, of course, and so we are we we exist help people who are in poverty.

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The area that where we're based is in the London borough of Brent, which is one of several boroughs in Brent,

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where the majority of residents are from black and ethnic minority communities.

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So they are the majority of our clients.

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It's very it's fascinating the boroughs in London and how different they are.

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Indeed, there is poverty everywhere in London, I think as well.

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The city does attract very rich people, but but also not just rich people who want to live in London,

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but rich people who want to invest in London so they may have no other interest.

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And that is, you know, traditionally and sadly, it seems to be increasing that London is seen as a tax haven.

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Because our taxes are all geared more towards helping rich people and poor people.

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One of the reasons that there is.

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Is such poverty and such problems with people being forced to live in poor housing is that rich people just invest in London in property,

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and they're not even bothered whether it's occupied or not. So we will have some of the most expensive property in London,

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which is just sitting there empty while some people are actually sleeping on the streets because they have nowhere to go.

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I mean, if you come as a tourist and you're looking around central London, you'll probably be very impressed because it is a beautiful city.

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Not only a lot of historical buildings that are still used to well-maintained, but also a lot of new developments.

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You know, all the new development may look very nice, but it's actually making the problem worse.

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The impact is, of course, that it is forcing up prices even more and forcing communities who may have lived in the area for a long time.

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They are gradually being forced out. The current government is very, very keen on promoting homeownership.

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And of course, some people want to own their homes. We're not saying that they shouldn't want to or they shouldn't be able to.

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But it is completely distorting the market. And for decades now, we've had social housing tenants have had the right to buy.

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And of course, all the ones who could afford to buy are buying the better properties,

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which is just adding to the housing crisis, going back to private developers.

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What we've realised unpacking it one of the reasons they're reluctant to provide more is not really because the scheme wouldn't.

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The figures were not off.

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It's because private homeowners do not want to live near social housing tenants and therefore if the developer builds too much social housing.

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That will lower the value of the houses in a building to sell to owner occupiers.

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I mean, anybody I've talked to says it's building more social housing is going to alleviate some of this pressure everywhere.

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There is absolutely no question at all. We need a massive building programme for social housing, but I have to say that that isn't the sole answer,

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partly because if we did have a building programme of that magnitude, we wouldn't be able to meet our carbon emission targets.

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But also, if you look across the board, there is actually enough housing.

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I mean, the song I read the other day is research, which I think I think it's something that 53 percent of households are under occupying.

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And I think for every for every head of the population, there's more than one bedroom,

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you know, some not two to three bedrooms or something like that. So we also have lots of other empty buildings,

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and I think now is an opportunity because one thing seems to be generally agreed is that

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people aren't going to be all going back to their office full time as they were before.

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There are a lot of buildings are under use and I know that we need to be really cautious about trying to simply convert,

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say, office or industrial buildings in housing. It doesn't always work.

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Some may have to be demolished, but the land is still there and could be used for essential housing.

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I think one of the things that probably is.

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It's not unique, it is deeply, deeply embedded in English culture in a way that it isn't in with other nationalities is our class culture.

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It has, you know, we don't talk about class anymore, but it has not gone away.

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That has not gone away. And housing is unique.

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I mean, you know, the private rented sector has really changed very little since feudal times.

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Since you had the Lord of the Manor that owned all the land and that was probably gifted to him by the sovereign.

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And they built, you know, more homes for the people who work the land for them.

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And even today, we still talk about the land Lord. You're right, that class structure is still inherently there.

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You see that there as well. No, I agree. But I will move on a some of the participants that I'm working with live in,

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as I told you earlier in these blocks that were built during the 60s and 70s.

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So I thought it might be interesting for you to look at the photos first.

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And I wonder if you could just describe these blocks for us and perhaps give us your first impressions just if you saw these blocks,

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what you would think about them. From the outside, they look OK.

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Probably depends largely on the the maintenance, whether that was planned,

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adequate planning and inadequate reactive procedures to deal with problems that individual tenants have.

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And I just as an example, I I given you one person who's Andrew who lives in this block in Soho, but he's kind of talking about maintenance issues.

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One is leaks, which have come within a month when the second one is construction around the block, which is going on for years.

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When I first started working in housing, local authority housing officers would have each officer would probably have

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40-60 tenants on that patch and they would be able to visit them regularly.

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They would know each other, they'd form a relationship. You know, they would actually call and ask if anything needed being done.

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You know, over the years, it was cut.

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And so and now I don't know how many there have probably hundreds.

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The job is, you know, partly because there's the opportunity to save money and also because funding cuts have been forced to economise.

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So it is largely automated service now. So. And I was really shocked when I tried to ring the housing officer on behalf of the client a few years ago.

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Now it's been like this for ages and you can't oh, you can't speak directly to a housing officer.

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You know, just the phones just not set up, you know, set up to prevent you being able to speak to your housing officer.

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So everything has to be done online, which is again, if you, you know,

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if people are older or they don't have broadband or access to the internet, that's a huge problem for people and everything goes through.

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Really, bureaucratic system is completely dehumanised.

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And what's more, is less efficient.

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And I was speaking to a tenant, you know, the day it is temporary accommodation, but it's managed by a housing association.

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She reported that her cooker was defective last October, and they sent someone round to condemn it, and she's still waiting for a replacement.

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And this is a woman with four young children. I suppose there are some savings, but there are also costs,

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because if you have that real human relationship between your housing officer and the tenant,

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if the tenants just lost their job or if they're struggling to pay the rent,

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they're going to tell you that and you're going to be able to help them to budget or make some arrangement or make sure they're claiming benefits,

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whatever it is that an early stage will now. The debts are just going to mount.

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Other people have told me this and often very quick turnover of staff, if there is staff.

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And frankly, I think the people have good intentions or some people care individuals, but everything is outsourced.

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You kind of the system doesn't allow empathy, basically.

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And this man as well. This is one because the other issue is in London, of course, there is the repair to the building,

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but then having no control of the area around you, what happens as well?

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And most people in lockstep is completely worried about redevelopment coming.

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I mean, I've been working directly with our black communities on a project called Fair Housing,

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and the aim of it is really to help the people who are hardest hit who are in the worst housing.

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You are the victims of the housing crisis to actually understand the reasons for it and the fact that it is inevitable,

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and to help them to speak directly for themselves to the people who.

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Has the power to make the radical systemic changes that we need to put things right?

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The things that families. In the worst accommodation, not saying whether the homes in temporary accommodation or really poor conditions,

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one of the reasons they want to be somewhere settled and have a rent they can afford is because they have, like anyone else, aspirations.

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They don't want to be on benefits all their life. They want to work.

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Some of the most studying with the hope that eventually there may be in a position where they can get a reasonable job,

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which gives them job satisfaction, and also they can bring up the family in the way that they want to.

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And yet everything conspires to stop them doing that.

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I assume even the people you've been working with, they might not live in blocks, but as you said, some of these issues are the same,

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but also whether you have experience with the pandemic, whether health and wellbeing,

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whether there has been a change or as the situation got even more desperate for people.

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Oh, absolutely. I mean, there is no. It's no coincidence that Brent has got a high black population, disadvantaged population,

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and it is, I think, the second or third highest number of COVID deaths.

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But it is linked with the House. I mean, we know that if you live in a cold, damp home, you're more likely to get, you know,

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you have a little immune system and you're more likely to suffer respiratory disease.

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On your website that you sent and I just quote a little bit, you said that one of your goals is to transform the renting sector,

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private rented sector through legal advice,

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as well as to campaigning and telling policymakers what the problems are and what they what they can do to solve them.

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I think that, you know, at a local level, we have a big relationship with the local authority,

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and I think we probably have some influence, probably not as much as we'd like and probably more so in some areas than others, I think.

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And one really good example of forward thinking, if you like what Brendan is set up community hubs,

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which are run by both brent staff and the voluntary sector, you know, the people who come don't know whether it's council voluntary sector.

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Who is helping them, it's just the hub and it's really open, everyone was together outside of pandemic before that.

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It was just a drop in. Anybody can walk in needed advice.

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They'd be dealt with by the most appropriate people.

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In a way, it's very much echoes the way advice for renters works, and it sees people first and foremost.

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It sees a person on their potential on the hub really echoes that kind of approach.

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But on the other hand, we do get frustrated that local authorities are not given the resources or the strategic

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input into using their powers as effectively as they could to improve housing conditions.

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Because I'm so old, I can remember what it was like before.

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When I was 18, I went to do my own stint in Paris.

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That was the first time I saw people sleeping rough on the streets, and I really remember saying,

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Thank God, that could never happen in London because we had a real welfare state.

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Now somebody had come along one day, one day and zero in election manifesto.

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We're going to rip up the welfare state. They would never have got elected, but it's been salami sliced.

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So every single little slice people haven't noticed.

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We don't have a welfare state in this country anymore.

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That's why I am bringing the people who are suffering now to get them to understand this isn't inevitable.

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We could have a welfare state again.

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Thank you for listening to the Disobedient Buildings podcast edited by Anna Andersen and produced by Jack Soper.

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If you want to hear more,

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go to our website at WW Dot Disobedient Buildings dot com or search for a podcast where you normally find your podcasts in the next episode.

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Gabriela Nicolescu takes you to Bucharest to speak with Ilinca Păun-Constantinescu,

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lecturer at the University of Architecture and Urbanism, Bucharest.

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to discuss Romania's shrinking cities