1 00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:12,150 This is episode eight of the Disobedient Buildings podcast, an AHRC funded project at the University of Oxford. 2 00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:21,840 Our focus is on the everyday lives of people living in ageing blocks of flats in three European countries the UK, Romania and Norway. 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,160 My name is Inge Daniels, 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:33,330 and in this episode I will be joined by Anna Andersen and Gabriela Nicolescu to further explore some of the key issues raised in season one. 5 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:39,450 We will discuss what welfare actually means in our three film sites. 6 00:00:39,450 --> 00:00:48,270 In episode five, Jackie Peacock from Advice for Renters expresses her concern about the demise of the welfare state in the UK. 7 00:00:48,270 --> 00:00:55,440 Somebody had come along one day, one day and said in an election manifesto, We're going to rip up the welfare state. 8 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:03,720 They would never have got elected, but it got salami sliced. So every single little slice people haven't noticed. 9 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,710 We don't have a welfare state in this country anymore. 10 00:01:07,710 --> 00:01:13,530 That's why I am bringing the people who are suffering now to get them to understand this isn't inevitable. 11 00:01:13,530 --> 00:01:26,460 We could have a welfare state again. Of course, the weakening of this relationship of trust, if you will, 12 00:01:26,460 --> 00:01:33,480 between citizens and their governments in Europe over the past 40 years, is also central to our project. 13 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,280 The three countries we study each represent an example of the European welfare 14 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,870 state that is struggling with social and economic challenges on the ground. 15 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:50,640 And this in turn, of course, has a huge impact on the everyday health and well-being of the inhabitants of the blocks we study. 16 00:01:50,640 --> 00:02:01,040 So how would you summarise the major changes to the welfare systems that have taken place in Romania and Norway over the past 30-40 years? 17 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:12,470 In Romania, I think the change from a socialist state to liberal and neo liberal government was so drastic 18 00:02:12,470 --> 00:02:19,910 that people cannot even really imagine what was the effect on the everyday lives of people. 19 00:02:19,910 --> 00:02:28,460 For example, the social protection benefits that are usually transfers in cash or in kind made to relieve households and individuals 20 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:37,100 of the burden of one or more social risks or needs in Romania are calculated based on the income from 2008. 21 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,870 But the income from how many years ago? 13. 22 00:02:41,870 --> 00:02:45,800 It's so different from the needs of the people today. 23 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:54,560 So four hundred thousand people that receive these social protection benefits of struggle really to live with the amount they receive. 24 00:02:54,560 --> 00:03:02,390 Other than that, there are 11000 people who have no employment or no benefits at all. 25 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:11,210 And the question that might be obvious is why it could be that they don't know how to apply for these benefits. 26 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:21,920 There are not enough people employed to explain and to help them get these benefits, but it's also possible that they work on the black market. 27 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:29,090 This meaning even different, very different sites, including agriculture, and to be paid by date. 28 00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:38,600 This is in sharp contrast with how the situation of the social protection was during state socialism, 29 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:44,240 where in theory the state catered to for everybody and work was mandatory. 30 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,410 In fact, it was a kind of urban legend. 31 00:03:48,410 --> 00:03:59,000 If if a policeman or policewoman would would see somebody on the street during a work time or work hour and that person would not go to work, 32 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:06,770 they would be taken from the street and put into prison. Work was mandatory and this is interesting because through work, 33 00:04:06,770 --> 00:04:17,750 people would receive accommodation in flats built by the state so they would rent from the state or people would live in flats that they would buy. 34 00:04:17,750 --> 00:04:24,140 But these flats would be projects designed and run by state enterprises. 35 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:30,920 So one can summarise and say that in socialist Romania, there was workfare and not welfare. 36 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:41,510 But after the change of the regime in 1990s in Eastern Europe, the state withdrew massively from the life of its citizens. 37 00:04:41,510 --> 00:04:49,280 The flats that were previously rented were bought by those who rented them, usually at very small prices. 38 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:56,450 State companies collapsed slowly. Public hospitals education was underfunded for 30 years. 39 00:04:56,450 --> 00:05:03,860 In theory, all employees benefited from public services. But in reality, the salaries of doctors, nurses, professors and many others. 40 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:10,080 You know, previous state institutions were so small that some people would tell me a story. 41 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:18,710 They didn't have enough money to buy food and put on the table. I think the shift from state socialism to capitalism. 42 00:05:18,710 --> 00:05:26,330 It's visible on the life of people living in the blocks in small cities in Romania, but also in Bucharest. 43 00:05:26,330 --> 00:05:37,820 Yeah. And I mean, in the Norwegian context, although you have traces of what we today would call the the welfare states back to like the 19th century, 44 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:45,110 the model that we know today was very much developed post-war and then gained a foothold in the immediate past 45 00:05:45,110 --> 00:05:54,800 four years when Norway was suffering from being at war for five years and having to rebuild the country. 46 00:05:54,800 --> 00:06:04,760 And I mean, there are certain traits about this welfare state that are quite clear, such as the fact that the welfare system in Norway is universal. 47 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,540 So that means that it is for for everyone and it's not means tested. 48 00:06:09,540 --> 00:06:20,480 So even if you're very, very rich, you can get access to this and these services, and it's it's a guarantee basically for its members. 49 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:30,290 But in case of illness or any unforeseen life events, unemployment, ageing and so on, then you would be taken care of. 50 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:38,090 And this care could either be benefits or it could be services such as hospitals or public schools and and so on. 51 00:06:38,090 --> 00:06:45,080 And another key thing is that the services provided by the state should be of high quality. 52 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:52,610 So it shouldn't be the fact that richer people could go to private services and get quicker or better care. 53 00:06:52,610 --> 00:07:00,990 The state should be able to offer the same services, and that is also true to even out the playing field. 54 00:07:00,990 --> 00:07:05,700 It's a very comprehensive system embedded in many areas of society. 55 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:15,780 And the idea is that, you know, difference in income and wealth and services available to you should be quite equal throughout the country. 56 00:07:15,780 --> 00:07:20,850 In the 70s and 80s, the system did start receiving criticism, 57 00:07:20,850 --> 00:07:30,210 especially from the right wing politicians arguing that, you know, the state had too much of a control, 58 00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:31,050 saying that, you know, 59 00:07:31,050 --> 00:07:42,540 these support systems could potentially lead to people not working and people not bothering to work and contribute because you had the support system. 60 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:54,270 Another thing is, you know, over the today compared to what it was like in 1945 today, would you have a lot more immigration? 61 00:07:54,270 --> 00:08:03,210 Would you also see an increased ageing population? And that is putting pressure on the social welfare system in Norway. 62 00:08:03,210 --> 00:08:13,630 And I think this system is continuing to be developed and changing and definitely discussed and debated. 63 00:08:13,630 --> 00:08:19,650 So in the UK than the welfare system and perhaps can be traced back if you want 64 00:08:19,650 --> 00:08:25,260 to a broad set of social services for people who could not care for themselves. 65 00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:32,820 With this, I mean, like the elderly, children and mothers, in a way, it was enshrined in what's called the poor law. 66 00:08:32,820 --> 00:08:38,430 This is a law that went to various transformations since the 17th century and that 67 00:08:38,430 --> 00:08:44,160 stresses a criminal responsibility for the less fortunate members of our society. 68 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,050 However, it's after World War Two that we really see the development of a Social Security 69 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:54,780 system that provides a protection for all citizens from the cradle to the grave. 70 00:08:54,780 --> 00:09:06,120 The system consists of four cornerstones, which is public provisioning of education, so we shall security, health care and housing. 71 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,860 And the most well known example is, of course, the NHS or the National Health Service, 72 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:22,410 which was established in 1948 and which still 95 percent of the population in the UK makes use of the service, which is quite amazing. 73 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:27,720 I think it's based on needs and it's free for all at the point of delivery. 74 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:33,840 This Social Security system is paid for through taxation, at least partly paid for. 75 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:45,000 I think it's called National Insurance contributions. That is a tax on earnings and profits that old people that work paid and in exchange, 76 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:53,670 they are entitled for certain benefits like unemployment, disability support, pensions or maternity leave. 77 00:09:53,670 --> 00:10:02,910 However, like we've heard in the other two countries in in the UK as well, they were from the start already actually many cracks in the system. 78 00:10:02,910 --> 00:10:10,920 So it's been argued that it was mainly the middle classes who actually have profited from the welfare state. 79 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:18,960 If you want and millions of people already right after the war continued to live in poverty during the 1960s, 80 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:25,080 there were the first critiques of talking about the longevity and the validity of this system. 81 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:31,440 But it's actually during the 1980s, particularly that we see a real decline of the welfare state, 82 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:38,700 and this was linked with a growing belief that the self-regulating market economy is the way forward. 83 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:43,860 And this has been called the so-called neoliberal turn or neoliberalism. 84 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:52,650 And in the UK, this is very much associated with Thatcher, but it also has been embraced, for example, by New Labour since the 1990s. 85 00:10:52,650 --> 00:11:00,180 What did this actually consist of? Well, first of all, it was the privatisation of a huge number of state owned assets. 86 00:11:00,180 --> 00:11:05,430 And if you want, this is still happening today and during my field work again and again, 87 00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:12,000 participants would point out to me when we did or when I did their walks with them, 88 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,120 they would point out buildings, public buildings that had been recently sold off to the private sector. 89 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:26,970 Examples are buildings that why I was a trainee nurses, police officers, families, actually GP services. 90 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:30,990 So actually where the doctor doctors, we would see you. 91 00:11:30,990 --> 00:11:40,950 These buildings have been sold off on mosques and been turned into hotels, destroyed or expensive private flats, if you want. 92 00:11:40,950 --> 00:11:44,940 So it's kind of interesting how this process is still ongoing. 93 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:54,900 Another way in which we see this decline of the welfare state is to the outsourcing of public services to private companies, 94 00:11:54,900 --> 00:12:00,030 but also the deregulation and decline in social and environmental responsibilities. 95 00:12:00,030 --> 00:12:06,640 And of. The current issues surrounding climate change and global warming is one consequence of that. 96 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,530 And the letter that we asked people to write about what worried them, many, 97 00:12:11,530 --> 00:12:19,070 many people mentioned actually climate change and global warming and privatisation or the decline of the welfare state. 98 00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:27,550 So it's interesting that it is a topic that is quite alive in people's everyday conversations as well, I think. 99 00:12:27,550 --> 00:12:34,420 But I also want to point out that in episode two, Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at the University of Oxford, 100 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:41,350 also discussed these consequences of these changes that have happened over the past four decades, 101 00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:45,610 which in the UK was coupled with what we call austerity politics. 102 00:12:45,610 --> 00:12:51,820 So policies and this has led to a huge economic inequality with the gap between 103 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:56,440 the extremely rich and the extremely poor only growing and more recently, 104 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:10,330 perhaps this has led to anti-globalization, anti-immigration sentiment and eventually that culminating in what we call Brexit. 105 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:18,850 Thank you for listening to the Disobedient Buildings podcast. Edited by Anna Andersen and produced by Jack Soper. 106 00:13:18,850 --> 00:13:20,200 If you want to hear more, 107 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:31,390 go to our website on WW dot disobedient buildings dot com or search for a podcast where you normally find your podcasts in the next episode. 108 00:13:31,390 --> 00:13:50,136 The Disobedient Buildings team will discuss what the impact has been of neoliberal reforms on housing in London, Bucharest and Oslo.