1 00:00:02,450 --> 00:00:07,909 Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, 2 00:00:07,910 --> 00:00:12,110 professional and personal lives and some clear your head of communications. 3 00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:17,030 It was in college and I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast. 4 00:00:18,330 --> 00:00:23,430 Today's guest is Mary Adeyemo, who is a fellow student here at Wolfson College. 5 00:00:23,910 --> 00:00:32,400 She very quickly secured a special place in my heart after recording this podcast together and after interviewing her for Plans and Prospects 2022. 6 00:00:33,570 --> 00:00:36,870 Now I want to ask Mary to think of three pivotal moments in her life. 7 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:41,340 She chose to talk through the most challenging times with admirable grace. 8 00:00:42,180 --> 00:00:48,930 She's the recent winner of a Vice-Chancellor's Diversity Award, founder of her own business and all round force of motivation. 9 00:00:49,590 --> 00:00:54,270 If you're lucky enough to catch her on college, your day is sure to get a little bit brighter. 10 00:00:54,510 --> 00:00:57,690 Mary, over to you. Very much. 11 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:02,069 Okay. I think the first thing is that, you know, whilst growing up, 12 00:01:02,070 --> 00:01:10,410 we already have like a perfect view of our life should be in our life years and then we know that people would die differently. 13 00:01:10,770 --> 00:01:17,069 We do not expect them to die as early as, you know, they die or even when they are even older. 14 00:01:17,070 --> 00:01:20,490 Not someone, them, you know, around us to eternity. 15 00:01:20,910 --> 00:01:29,639 And so whilst growing up, I'm from a Christian background and I'm probably someone with pre, 16 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,010 you know, my family would do everything according to what the Bible sees like as it is written. 17 00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:39,000 So you you're going to be blessed if you do ABC. 18 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:41,160 That was the orientation I had. 19 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:49,530 And I remember that that night my brother died, I had prayed very well before going to bed, so I had double confidence in my sleep. 20 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:54,060 But unfortunately. Twas the midnight. 21 00:01:55,010 --> 00:01:57,860 An event that never happened before happened. 22 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:05,120 And I just heard noises and people shouting and screaming like voices coming from because I like to sleep a lot. 23 00:02:06,380 --> 00:02:10,310 And then it happened that it turned out to be in my apartment. 24 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:15,740 In our apartment. And, you know, Margene, I've been 15, 20 people. 25 00:02:15,740 --> 00:02:19,170 30 people that enables coming in. I like and I drew. 26 00:02:19,170 --> 00:02:24,590 I mean, is this a dream? And then, you know, that moment change it for me. 27 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:29,120 But even before then, I still had the confidence that, no, this is probably a joke. 28 00:02:29,170 --> 00:02:31,570 You know, we will get well. 29 00:02:32,090 --> 00:02:42,320 I mean, never occurred to me that that could actually be the last time, you know, you ever stand on his feet to see, you know, my name is. 30 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:49,260 And so it changed everything, not just for me, but for my family members, 31 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:57,210 because I saw first time first and that young I lost someone close to me, not close to me, my lord. 32 00:02:57,660 --> 00:03:02,210 You know, within the circumference of my realities go. 33 00:03:02,430 --> 00:03:12,210 It looks like a joke. And it was even more painful because he had died because of a failure of the medical system in Nigeria. 34 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:21,480 So it was push you will it was painful because it's something that could have been rectified or something that could have been managed but lost, 35 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:24,600 you know, you know, led to the death of my brother. 36 00:03:24,610 --> 00:03:32,190 So that changed the definition of life for me, because you can wake up today and tomorrow you're gone. 37 00:03:32,550 --> 00:03:38,310 You can be alive today. So active and powerful. I remember we had even like an argument that night. 38 00:03:38,670 --> 00:03:41,820 And so sometimes I'm like, this is really a dream. 39 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,400 You know, for the longest and even till now, it feels like maybe somewhere, you know. 40 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:55,440 So I didn't change. Like I said, it changed perspective of my life because I didn't automatically have to step 41 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,910 into the shoes I wasn't prepared to step into or I wasn't even prepared for. 42 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,080 And the second born, the first girl of my family were like, if you born, 43 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:08,580 if there's any responsibility in the African setting, automatically goes to the first woman. 44 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:17,100 And he was the first he was the first born. And so I automatically step into shoes that were clearly bigger than my legs. 45 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,300 And, you know, so that changed my perspective. It changed why reasoned. 46 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,870 You changed how I thought about things, not just on myself. 47 00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:29,519 So I wasn't thinking a limb for myself. I said, I'm thinking for myself. 48 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,679 I need to get out of my junior ones. 49 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:42,900 I implication of my parents because it was a schoolboy, I should say he was you know, it was in my head was that I was just the chatterbox. 50 00:04:45,030 --> 00:04:52,740 And then so sometimes my parents just think about it and I feel like, oh, if you were to be here, maybe you could have done this, that that's all. 51 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:59,280 I automatically took on responsibilities and I began to just do things that my parents were amazed that. 52 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:02,280 Mm. And that actually brought my family closer. 53 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:07,300 We were close, but it brought us closer, like. This is unbelievable. 54 00:05:07,930 --> 00:05:12,310 You know, so that actually changed the trajectory of my life, of my thinking. 55 00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:18,460 And even for my family. Yeah. And can I ask, what was the point of medical negligence that led to his death? 56 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:27,820 So remember that we are taking him to our ospital and the doctor on duty had refused to attend to him initially saying, 57 00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:33,670 Oh, he wasn't on call, blah, blah, blah. And my mom, my dad's A.D. seen, you know, running around. 58 00:05:33,940 --> 00:05:37,060 And he came finally. And it was just very few points about it. 59 00:05:37,510 --> 00:05:42,500 And then he was like, it's passed. Like, everybody should go, like, not in an apple. 60 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,120 I mean, this is someone's son who's someone's brother. 61 00:05:46,150 --> 00:05:49,660 No ambushes, nothing. Like we see people die everyday. 62 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:57,880 So it wasn't a big deal about his death, you know? So we felt like and I feel like if we had been attended to immediately we brought him in, 63 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,680 could have been, you know, situation might have been salvaged or might have been better controlled by. 64 00:06:03,970 --> 00:06:13,840 And what was the reason that you had to bring him in in the first place? So like I said, I woke up to the news and to the noise in my apartment. 65 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:18,760 Garcia's room is just by my room, and I think it was convulsing. 66 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:22,270 You know, in Africa, they bring you a lot of all mechanisms. 67 00:06:22,490 --> 00:06:26,319 Was funny in his mouth. I remember telling my parents to put hands in his mouth. 68 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:32,080 So you see them, you know, they look clean together. So he was having, like, a fit, like a convulsions. 69 00:06:32,110 --> 00:06:42,249 Yeah. So. Well, any POW medical history in terms of maybe convulsing or anything like that. 70 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:52,140 So it really changed a lot for us because this is someone that we all went to bed together to pre active, you know, vibrance. 71 00:06:52,420 --> 00:06:56,050 I mean it was quite an issue back, but like he was very active, vibrant. 72 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:04,390 He was a risky, you know. So it was so confusing that I would slip happy and off sad. 73 00:07:04,430 --> 00:07:12,460 And I remember that that that night was a Sunday night in May, May 23rd, to be precise. 74 00:07:13,180 --> 00:07:18,909 And what I was planning to go to school for, and I think we had a test or something and a plan B, 75 00:07:18,910 --> 00:07:25,680 some of my friends were to meet and you see me the only soul that were coming back, you know, because his body did not. 76 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:30,580 His body was too warm, like a normal person till six, 7 a.m. 77 00:07:31,180 --> 00:07:34,209 And so the doctor left was Nikki said, you're dead. 78 00:07:34,210 --> 00:07:37,890 Nothing, no life support, no checking, was just there. 79 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:45,250 And he left us and his body still felt warm, like we could still feel veins, you know? 80 00:07:46,330 --> 00:07:54,850 And I mean, that's that's a medical negligence, not just from General Hospital, but from the health sector generally in Nigeria. 81 00:07:54,850 --> 00:07:58,840 So this is not this is not a fake that I just happened to me. 82 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:07,120 I know many people have been victims of similar realities and that's actually what support my interest in medical or like. 83 00:08:07,410 --> 00:08:08,770 Mhm. What do you mean. 84 00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:21,370 And my dad and my parents taking it all or you know the Nigerian point to do is so it's if it was meant to happen in happened there's nothing you can 85 00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:28,750 do about is afraid of God even if you go to cause you can't bring the dead back to life you know that kind of culture unwanted desire to navigate. 86 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:34,360 Imagine people that don't even understand the basic rights that we have. 87 00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:42,370 And what I mean, I was in secondary schools or had this background, but what it took it was, Oh, it's normal and there's nothing we can do about it. 88 00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:46,570 And that's why I'm kind of, you know, interrogating and trying to fight back. 89 00:08:46,750 --> 00:08:51,489 So you didn't so that you could accept that. Yeah. Reasoning. We have to fight those kind of biases. 90 00:08:51,490 --> 00:08:54,820 Like more is made to Apple. No know wasn't meant to happen. 91 00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:00,010 It wasn't meant to happen. Rather like we could have changed the narrative if things were in place. 92 00:09:00,310 --> 00:09:04,840 If people where do you want it all to do and how they ought to have done it? 93 00:09:05,180 --> 00:09:10,000 Do you mean are they also have done it? We're not going to have those kind of realities seen or it's a fate. 94 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:15,340 Oh, I mean, it is. 95 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:22,860 I think it was. It was man made my opinion wasn't it wasn't as a result of or time or anything. 96 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:26,790 I think it was just man made, which is very. Painful. 97 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:32,760 Yeah. And that experience then spurred you on to study medical law in Nigeria. 98 00:09:32,910 --> 00:09:35,970 So I decided at the back of my mind that whatever I do. 99 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,700 Mm hmm. Medical law stands. 100 00:09:39,090 --> 00:09:48,870 And so when I got into university, the only available course on Moodle was in health law, which I, I mean I distinctions in both terms. 101 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:55,860 I took the course and so were just kind of scratching the face, looking at it from a general point of view. 102 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:04,299 And, you know, even when I started working as a lawyer, when cases of medical negligence come, I'm always like, I always jump. 103 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:14,100 But it's usually one that involved a minor. Even when I was serving my first year and where I practise as a lawyer, as a full time lawyer. 104 00:10:14,110 --> 00:10:17,910 So it's something that has just always been at the back of my mind. 105 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,100 And especially because even lawyers in Nigeria look at it like it's an area we should concentrate on. 106 00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:28,140 You know, yeah. I mean, it's not it's not as interesting. 107 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:31,830 But what's the economic implication for us? 108 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:38,820 You know, because, again, it seem like you're fighting you're doing something on human rights and don't look at it beyond that scope, 109 00:10:39,180 --> 00:10:47,190 that now medical law as well. Even though it prompted my interest, the death of my brother prompted my interest in medical. 110 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:53,930 Negligence. So even though my. 111 00:10:54,350 --> 00:11:00,020 Can I continue? Yeah, of course. Even though my. My brother's prompted my interest in medical law. 112 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:02,989 Like it was a prompt. And now I see that. 113 00:11:02,990 --> 00:11:10,340 Oh, there's more to medical law, but it's not something that is really being advocated for even by senior lawyers or judges. 114 00:11:10,610 --> 00:11:17,000 We don't have medical tech law, but I have a lot of issues around medical law that's just beyond human rights and negligence. 115 00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:21,530 You have patents, you have access to vaccines and medicines. 116 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:28,549 You know, you have it in international level, you have it in regional level, and then you have it in the local level. 117 00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:33,470 So it's I think there's a need for reincarnation of what medical law really is. 118 00:11:34,070 --> 00:11:39,200 Yeah. And do you think in in Nigeria, that kind of war that you come up against, 119 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:46,640 is that also partly to do with that bias that you felt that you were kind of battling against in the very beginning of people thinking, 120 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,050 you know, this is something that is you know, it's just meant to happen. It's God's will. 121 00:11:51,530 --> 00:11:56,360 Does that kind of infiltrate all the way through, or do you think that was just something that you dealt with at the very beginning? 122 00:11:56,510 --> 00:12:04,510 I think it's it's something that continues because people still think about it the way that it's meant to happen. 123 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,389 So in that kind of religious context, that even comes into the practise. 124 00:12:08,390 --> 00:12:16,910 Yeah. So even people that I educated, you actually find them, you know, taking up an action against a medical practitioner. 125 00:12:16,910 --> 00:12:22,790 And again, this is coupled with the fact that the judicial system takes time. 126 00:12:22,820 --> 00:12:27,260 It's demanding. You don't get justice. I mean, all of these things play. 127 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:29,810 You know, there are factors that come to play. 128 00:12:29,810 --> 00:12:39,850 But essentially the point is that many Nigerians, the average Nigerian, is, you know, not interested in pursuing a cause like that. 129 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:44,150 Just like, I mean, what why starts again anyway to take time. And I still don't get justice. 130 00:12:44,450 --> 00:12:47,510 So everybody just on see, let me bury the dead. 131 00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:52,370 Let me know. Just settle this internally and I'll be fine. 132 00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:56,689 Yeah. So that kind of leads me to your next pivot point as well, 133 00:12:56,690 --> 00:13:03,130 which was not making a first class at the at the Nigerian law school, even though you had three A's. 134 00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:07,400 Yeah, that sounds like quite a frustrating experience. Yeah. So. 135 00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:15,469 Like I said, everything is was like was momentum was is holistic. 136 00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:20,540 And whilst I was an undergrad in my in my undergraduate university, 137 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:31,670 I remember that I had not started with I had not been the first in class or the second and the third or even the 10th in class until much later. 138 00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:37,280 And I'm like, Oh, I'm on top of the class. How come, you know, I wasn't paying so much attention? 139 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:42,200 And then because of that, I was in I was involved in a lot of things. 140 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,549 Like I was in the student representative council, I was in charge. 141 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:52,220 I wasn't that I was in sports. I was everywhere I go, everywhere you look around, you just find me. 142 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:57,260 And because for me, like I always tell people, impact is very big for me. 143 00:13:57,530 --> 00:14:01,760 Everyone can read, um, pass, but not everyone can make an impact. 144 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,600 You know what people? People mean? I'll say hello. Hi to you. 145 00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:11,030 But they look at you and use and apply your life principles to gas. 146 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:16,820 So and that's you're making an impact. You may not be aware of it, but it's very essential for me. 147 00:14:16,820 --> 00:14:23,389 Like I said, I start I stopped thinking about myself when I wasn't feeling the big shoes of my elder brother. 148 00:14:23,390 --> 00:14:31,640 So for me, it wasn't just about me. The picture was about me, my siblings, my peer and my family, people around me, people in my community. 149 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:39,080 What can I do to make things easier for me? You know, easier for the society, you know, easier for everyone. 150 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,770 Let everyone feel ease, you know? 151 00:14:43,810 --> 00:14:47,550 So. The expectations were really high. 152 00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:54,930 I must see, because like I said, even at my graduations when people were like, I want the best for you so that someone else, 153 00:14:55,410 --> 00:14:59,880 is it possible for me to be doing all of that and then still be the best grades in student? 154 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,980 So the the let me say the pressure was really high. 155 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:09,360 Do you think that you put the pressure on yourself or is that other people putting pressure on you? 156 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,460 Are people putting pressure on me and them like, I don't like to put pressure on myself. 157 00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:23,750 I don't I just do things as it come to me naturally, because the moment I start to struggle with it, I don't always achieve the populous. 158 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:29,730 I mean, on the face of it, you look good. But internally you didn't do anything. 159 00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:35,280 And for me, I need to settle internally first before I start showing people this is what I can do. 160 00:15:35,290 --> 00:15:41,610 I'm not I'm not here to impress anyone. I'm just here to improve better on my yesterday. 161 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,410 So I'm not competing with anyone and competing with the mirror of yesterday. 162 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,720 Yeah. And, you know. Incrementally. 163 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:58,049 So at law school the pressures would high, of course, and it was even more in that news award. 164 00:15:58,050 --> 00:16:06,270 Interesting, because some of my classmates, one of my classmates from my undergrad school became the best writing students at law school. 165 00:16:06,930 --> 00:16:10,560 So the pressure, I mean, I felt good. 166 00:16:10,950 --> 00:16:22,890 But at the same time, you know, people are people started even mistaking and sort of sticky me for the person if he gets so. 167 00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:35,060 But it was it was it changed my perspective about life, especially because after that time I saw the Earth, I didn't make it first class. 168 00:16:35,150 --> 00:16:38,690 And in Nigerian laws going to Niger and also you graduated your last grade. 169 00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:46,160 So if you have all A's and one D, you go to the D, so you have all these and won't be one B-plus. 170 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:59,900 You go with B-plus. So if you have all all A's, only one, if you feel competition at odds, also graduates with your least to least greed. 171 00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:03,830 So. Yeah, I did. 172 00:17:04,420 --> 00:17:05,700 You know, I tried my best. 173 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:14,210 I tried to also be very active in law school because, again, I mean, we kind of remember the people that I'm in, first class or second class or par. 174 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,700 I mean, I'm very second class all the time. 175 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:23,090 A lot of people that middle class, because every year people come on board, new people come on board, new people come on board. 176 00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:29,510 But within your time there, some people remember you for what you did them for how you impacted them. 177 00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:38,510 For me, that was very important for me. Mm hmm. And, yeah, I mean, even do I feel like I could have achieved better if not for the grading system? 178 00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:46,880 I don't blame the grading system to give him what I deserved because at least people got A's and he got old. 179 00:17:47,030 --> 00:17:53,420 So there's no need to blame the system. There's just a need to work better and see how I can improve myself. 180 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,070 And like I said, I was scared that I wasn't going to get into my dream life and all of that. 181 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,680 But I even got I got into my dream law, had offers. 182 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,500 So it did it didn't change the trajectory of where we were trying to go. 183 00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:11,540 You didn't change the trajectory. But it helps me to understand, you know, how life can be. 184 00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:16,080 Sometimes it can be hard sometimes to come down and sometimes you put all of your effort in. 185 00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:23,360 You still don't see come forth. And that's what life is about, is not just always going to go according to my plan, 186 00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:28,250 according to my effort, just it's going to go how it is going to go. 187 00:18:28,580 --> 00:18:34,250 But you just have to do what you have to do. Yeah. So you put in your best, do what you can do. 188 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,480 But then when things happen, you know, don't kill yourself. 189 00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:47,180 Because I feel bad. I was going to. I think that's the first time I was gradually going to slip into depression because I was thinking of all that. 190 00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:53,270 Mm hmm. You know, it was like changing how you felt about yourself. 191 00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,019 Yeah, because I was. I was. I was. I won my results. 192 00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:00,050 Let me just see that my mom was always angry with me. 193 00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:04,940 I was Monique. She's like, God forbid, oh, I don't want to get in our lives. 194 00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:10,430 You know, when she was angry that you didn't get the results, you know, that you were, like, moping. 195 00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:13,830 Yeah. She's like. She's like, people are. 196 00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:18,790 People will be kind of result. I have people I'm dying to have, and we are not the same. 197 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:25,610 Our goals are as we know. Some people just want a drink, a drink, a glass of water. 198 00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:28,690 Some people want it. Well, I want it well, yeah. 199 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,430 You know and I can be compare myself is they all some people wanted a glass of water and didn't have a glass. 200 00:19:34,430 --> 00:19:40,790 It was Ashley Glass, all of them. But I wanted well, you know, if they wanted a glass of wine, only got a glass of water. 201 00:19:40,790 --> 00:19:43,850 Good for them. That's one thing. But I didn't get what I wanted. 202 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,960 Yeah. And so she just. I was going. So on the standards, that is what life is. 203 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,560 Yeah. And you have to be able to show people that even when you at your lowest, that is not the end of it. 204 00:19:55,070 --> 00:20:00,440 It's not. Game over is like the game is just about to stop for you because for some people is 205 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,820 game over the backseat what you want to achieve and then that's all they can rest. 206 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:14,720 But you you the game is just have to stop for you. So if you then say I'm not interested, you have lost, you know, you cannot get victory. 207 00:20:15,650 --> 00:20:18,710 Oh, yeah, very. In fact, out from the battle, you face it. 208 00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:23,080 Oh, yeah. Weak, tired. We just keep moving. 209 00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:27,650 Well, like you're crawlin with a flying whether you are, you know. 210 00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:36,040 Whatever. Walk in. Just keep moving. It's not in the magnitude of of steps you take. 211 00:20:36,580 --> 00:20:43,719 It's in the consistency of the steps that you take. And I think that actually really sums up the theme of all of your pivot points, actually, 212 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:50,720 because something that really struck me when you sent those through is that these are three very hard hitting, difficult moments in your life. 213 00:20:50,740 --> 00:20:55,690 Yeah. But I also think from knowing you a little bit, from the conversations that we've had, 214 00:20:56,350 --> 00:21:04,020 your your attitude towards these particular moments and towards your life is very much one of strength. 215 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:08,960 And, you know, you hit these difficult moments, but your perspective is still you know, you carry on. 216 00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:15,400 You do your best. You keep going. Yeah. And and where do you think that that strength comes from? 217 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,970 Because that almost seems intrinsic to you before any of these things really happened. 218 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,960 Yeah, I think for my parents, you know, I was shown with a friend yesterday that I, 219 00:21:23,470 --> 00:21:35,600 I saw my parents go from on that beneath the ground to the ground, then gradually on top of the ground and then maybe stay flying, you know. 220 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:41,740 So I, I grew with my parents. So when people say, oh, whilst I was young, we have this car. 221 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:49,010 I can't really it's just my story when people say, Oh, I used to be days when I travel. 222 00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:53,410 Like going to the mall was a big deal for me at some point in my life. 223 00:21:53,800 --> 00:22:03,570 So if my dad says we are going to the mall bus like, wow, we are going to the mall like me and my siblings are now talking about. 224 00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:07,000 We are going to be excited. Yeah, we are going to an eatery. Mm hmm. 225 00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:12,489 Like, for some people, that's a red flag for them. So when I tell people that, oh, that's not regular for me, 226 00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:17,740 they did not believe you because I don't wear that on my face like or I've never been to the cinemas before. 227 00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:25,810 Oh, I've never. No. So. And my my parents have tried to teach me and my siblings. 228 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,799 What integrity is that? Even in your absence, the devil should be able to see me through to every other thing. 229 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,910 But she wouldn't do that. She will do every other thing, but she will never do that. 230 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,880 So and it's irrespective of the situation, irrespective of what is going on. 231 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,929 I remember that my at some point, I mean, my parents, like I say, 232 00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:55,940 the girl in front of me and I think they had some financial constraints and he had like some church money in his hand. 233 00:22:55,940 --> 00:23:01,370 He could have spent it for the meantime till, you know, because of course, we're going to get money at some point. 234 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:08,509 But he did not. So all of us had to suffer. And so I we it's something that I enjoyed from whilst I was growing up. 235 00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:12,260 My parents, they communicate. The problem was this is a problem. 236 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,540 Yeah. You don't seem to have ideas. Well, this is a problem and this is what we are going to do. 237 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:24,650 So sometimes everybody would always eat. So they were going so fast because the problem is there's no food at all. 238 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:34,810 Right. So we we got used to understanding the problems and then we had to creatively come up with solutions. 239 00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:41,290 So even when our parents are trying to break the box on, you know, like the children are, we're like, no, no, no, we are together. 240 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:46,210 And we understand. And even when they give us, we still come up with the money they give us. 241 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,770 Why do you spend money? We know that you don't have any of it. Yeah. So we kept it. 242 00:23:50,890 --> 00:23:54,880 Mm hmm. So it just naturally grew me, like. 243 00:23:55,210 --> 00:24:00,970 I mean, you have to fight. It's like if you see that you're from a wealthy family or you make a wealthy family. 244 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,490 Mm hmm. You have to be on either of the divide. 245 00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:16,990 He's also been. That's just fall from it. When I come wealthy, you know, opportunities are we can we can determine backgrounds. 246 00:24:17,420 --> 00:24:19,329 I mean the families are a come from the Kennedys. 247 00:24:19,330 --> 00:24:24,940 I mean the kind of language that we speak or we can determine how we want to respond to this reality. 248 00:24:25,570 --> 00:24:35,530 And so for me, whilst growing up, my parents have taught me how to respond to the realities and things that I do not quite agree with them on. 249 00:24:35,950 --> 00:24:44,980 I try to fight it like, no, no, no, no, don't. You know, I, I try to, you know, candidly, that's an opinion. 250 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:52,479 So that's I think that's that's what I was actually built me internally as sometimes even in the face of this thing, 251 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,760 it's not like I construct like, oh, I lost my brother. I'm the hero. 252 00:24:55,790 --> 00:24:59,780 No. I'm the. I'm not the hero then. 253 00:25:00,050 --> 00:25:05,780 I'm just. It's just an insight I begin to see. Oh, I've done this better, you know? 254 00:25:06,170 --> 00:25:10,580 Oh, I was money. My result old. I was crying. I feel like the war that ended. 255 00:25:10,910 --> 00:25:18,319 I feel like I disappointed a lot of people that looked up to me. But yeah, if I never did, never look up to me again. 256 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,490 So what? What else can I do? What more can I do? 257 00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:28,889 You know. So. And when I see people that are in similar situations let me tell me about the end will be I 258 00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:34,140 feel lost school I'm like if you're law school you can always try your feel lost now but yeah, 259 00:25:34,290 --> 00:25:38,430 that's why it is an opportunity to take receipts you know, papers. 260 00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:44,130 They understand that reality. I'm not a Oh, you feel low school and you can never be a lawyer again. 261 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,050 Ever know they've provided room for that reality? 262 00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:52,410 He did not come. When you expect it, it's what you wanted it. 263 00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:59,069 But it's you, Castle. Get it? That's what matters. And then how did you feel when you didn't? 264 00:25:59,070 --> 00:26:05,430 When the Rhodes Scholarship for 2020? Let me say first that I was grateful that I made it to do. 265 00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:08,669 Should you just know as well that that's the third and final pivot point. 266 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:13,530 Another very, very hard at the moment. Yeah actually just first that I'm. 267 00:26:15,130 --> 00:26:19,320 I felt very excited when I was shortlisted for the year. 268 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,170 So you're one of the top ten finalists for West Africa for 2020? 269 00:26:23,620 --> 00:26:28,900 The year before I checked, I checked with scholars around the world on this application. 270 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:31,980 For me, I don't have a place here. I don't even come close. 271 00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:40,000 And so the second year, so imposter syndrome came to me and my dad asked me like the last time, Oh, did you send me the application? 272 00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:45,940 I know I did not do the win, you know, roots columns. 273 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:51,690 Yeah. I said I was like, okay, so see, I am not like that. 274 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:56,590 You know, I don't have an exceptional quality, my own opinion at the time. 275 00:26:57,250 --> 00:27:01,660 And they told me that's. Just apply a light. 276 00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:06,889 There's no point wasting my time. So you don't just apply. I remember, like I said, we did my final application. 277 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:15,390 10 minutes of deadline. And so I locked my mind on anything because of course, like I said, after reading, 278 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:19,620 I was just I had this imposter syndrome that I don't I don't come close. 279 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:26,100 But to God's glory, I was shortlisted for The Different Round. 280 00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:31,500 The first long list, the email I got. I was on a bike in Nigeria called Okada. 281 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:40,740 I always tripped when I got the image. I read this guy's meetings, so made a mistake and I was so happy like I was longlisted. 282 00:27:40,740 --> 00:27:46,670 And that's I mean, that was the height of all this so big coming after, you know, I didn't make it. 283 00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:53,910 So I you make it first class from law school. It was so big for me that I wasn't long listed as one of like 300 people. 284 00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:57,480 It didn't matter to me. I'll still be thousands of people. That was not. 285 00:27:58,870 --> 00:28:11,410 And then gradually, you know, they sort of differentiate least and I'm ready to protect him and I will disguise the admitted mistake again, you know. 286 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:21,230 And, you know, at the time of the ovation, he said for the ten finalists, then I think maybe, maybe. 287 00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:25,540 And I said, I beat expectations, but expectations. 288 00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:29,319 And so when I didn't. Finally make it again. 289 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:38,799 I just feel like, oh, you know, and that yeah, I think I got into Cambridge without funding, you know, everything. 290 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,860 Just I feel like it's not for you, you know? 291 00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:44,979 Oxford is not for you. Cambridge is not for you. 292 00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:49,900 Can we just do the give you admission? You know, it's just the imposter syndrome. 293 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:53,620 Then came in like, you know, I told you. 294 00:28:54,250 --> 00:29:02,340 I told you. I told you. And at that point, I just told myself that even if you be me ten years to keep on playing. 295 00:29:03,090 --> 00:29:06,300 Every year they recognised this skill gives a play. 296 00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:12,630 Yeah. And even if it takes ten games, only ten to do so [INAUDIBLE] just give up and I'll keep applying. 297 00:29:13,290 --> 00:29:15,810 And so I could. Michelle I've applied to this school. 298 00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:22,800 They didn't pick me and I'm like, up in there, they look at me like, No, you have not like I have been there. 299 00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:27,410 I am. And they don't. 300 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,730 They think I'm just making up the story. You know, I can show you my rejection emails. 301 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,070 Why do people think you're making up the story? Maybe I just sympathise with them and make them feel good. 302 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,790 I'm making you feel good. I'm just telling you what it is, you know? 303 00:29:41,270 --> 00:29:44,479 And I feel I see people come to visit me. I don't think you have problems. 304 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,980 You can almost. I know. I understand. 305 00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:51,410 I've been there. Even now, I'm still there. 306 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,580 Because for every mountain, don't climb. Being there comes another. 307 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:02,720 Except you want to settle for less. So the height of your achievements is the least of unknown persons. 308 00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:07,550 So if you want to keep progressing by the time you are done, so hit this targets. 309 00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:11,330 You don't sleep. You move on to another thing for as long as you're alive. 310 00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:18,230 They are always, you know, you don't need to be and still be to for the rest of my life, you know, tomorrow or next year, 311 00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:28,820 because it is so much to me is like food when you don't eating unsatisfied there comes on a down there that you have to satisfy. 312 00:30:30,170 --> 00:30:35,450 When you don't drink in water, you don't see or have drunk water to drink for the next two weeks. 313 00:30:36,170 --> 00:30:40,520 Tomorrow, in fact, in another 10 minutes, you can just feel thirsty. 314 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,220 That's why life is. Achievements like that. We are doing. 315 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,940 Oh. You slip away, Dusty? 316 00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:52,760 That's the way it is. And now how do you feel? 317 00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:58,130 How do you feel dealing with that reality now that you are here and in Oxford? 318 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,930 And I should also just say that I think imposter syndrome is a thing that really everybody does feel here. 319 00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:09,620 I think that it happens and it'll continue to happen again. 320 00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:13,430 Like, I came in here and I see when people, you know, introduce themselves. 321 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:21,209 How did I make it into this room? You know? And then you begin to speak to people and realise. 322 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:25,390 So they feel what you feel is what they feel. They feel inadequate. 323 00:31:25,390 --> 00:31:28,500 I'm like, Who? Whereas Yahoo. Yeah. 324 00:31:28,510 --> 00:31:31,630 So everybody is in the same space and the same bubble. 325 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,610 And so, in fact, when I came in and the first set of applications that I made, 326 00:31:36,610 --> 00:31:41,500 all I wanted to do this I to help you know actually it was sorry because that a lot of people in that. 327 00:31:44,190 --> 00:31:48,880 Only fact that I'm in Oxford doesn't take that away from me. Everybody's also in Oxford. 328 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:52,520 We are playing for the same thing. But like me, I got the first one. 329 00:31:52,530 --> 00:31:59,490 I just felt like. Come on. So now people say we are sorry and we regret and say, Oh, it's fine. 330 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,820 It's nice. Just give me a good opportunity to focus on other things. 331 00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:09,599 Yeah. So that's it for me? Yeah, I think it very much is like a pressure cooker for people. 332 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:15,060 Once you are actually in here, you know, it's like all of the pressure that you arrive here with, you hold onto that. 333 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,950 But then once you start speaking to each other, those walls break down a little bit. 334 00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:26,520 And the pressure I guess the pressure is still there. Yeah, but I guess it makes it easier to know that everybody feels the same. 335 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:31,860 Yeah, I think what Bina should add is what is called collaborative advantage. 336 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,560 That's the one thing that I've been able to use, and that is working for me. 337 00:32:37,710 --> 00:32:40,680 So it's collaboration over competition. 338 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:47,130 So when you guys are competing and looking at it from one perspective, I want to hear this, but when you guys are collaborative. 339 00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:49,770 I bring my ideas to table. 340 00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:59,250 You bring your ideas to the table, we will submergence and we are able to, you know, conquer what we would have done individually and get intention. 341 00:32:59,460 --> 00:33:02,690 We were able to bring attention to the table. We have 20. Hmm. 342 00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:07,380 So it's called collaborative advantage. But many people feel it's a competition. 343 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,290 It's not a competition. Yeah, you are competing. 344 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:17,490 But it did get a compete and you're collaborating for the future because they are going to be in the University of Oxford forever as a student. 345 00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:23,850 There's a timeframe, there's a time limits, you know, for which you can be here for. 346 00:33:24,270 --> 00:33:29,909 So as much as you have a distinction from Oxford, I don't have a distinction in relationship. 347 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:33,220 You don't have a distinction in experience. You don't have to be. 348 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,550 Well, the first time I went to the Black Matic effect. 349 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:44,430 I don't support those in that school of government. And I was you know, I entered the building and I was surprised like this. 350 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:47,580 Lots of people in here. I've never seen this before. 351 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,610 You know, if I've never if I didn't go there, draw my University of Oxford, it's always, oh, this is beautiful. 352 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,360 Mr. Wellesley went off with concerns about it. Like, I didn't go there. 353 00:33:59,130 --> 00:34:01,440 You know, they look at me in a funny way. 354 00:34:02,250 --> 00:34:09,840 So wherever that we are in or whatever, whatever stage we're going through in life, we should understand that it's a matter of time. 355 00:34:10,260 --> 00:34:14,010 No matter how difficult today's days, it's we end as we all come. 356 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,480 It's not easy. Or because it's difficult to be found out, too. 357 00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:24,840 Mm hmm. And so that's the framework I have in my mind. No matter how prejudiced I am, this time we'll go. 358 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,490 And another time will come. So it's it's it's a it is a time for you. 359 00:34:29,550 --> 00:34:33,110 Mm hmm. And I love that idea as well of collaborating for the future. 360 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,740 And on that note, what do you feel is next for you on that note? 361 00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:41,970 I feel that I'm just very open minded to work with people. 362 00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:46,140 Like I said, I just just came back from the BBC. 363 00:34:46,650 --> 00:34:52,230 And because I'm teaching my system to teach on a course for the masses of public policy, 364 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,510 when I was coming here to have that a back of my mind that that was going to happen or was even going to be possible. 365 00:34:57,930 --> 00:35:04,740 So for the future, I just want to like I always see impacts impacting people is, is a big thing for me. 366 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,839 You know, when people tell me, oh, what you said helps me, you know what you said to me, 367 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:17,160 I was going to give up on this, but I decided to do it again, you know, and I ended well, you know, so. 368 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:29,600 Next for me is to concentrate on my dphil so be open minded to absorb as much as possible like a form sponge soaking in as much as possible. 369 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:38,450 The pressure because the worst kind of prejudice, the pressure that you put on yourself because you just, you scholarly, you know, you will move in. 370 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,489 I just think you're dying. I mean, eventually die. 371 00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:47,990 So don't pressure yourself. Step out of that kind of difficult. 372 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,300 Well, step, step out of it. Discuss with people. For me, I joke about my problems. 373 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,910 Like, Oh, I took a maltese. 374 00:35:58,930 --> 00:36:02,090 Yeah. And someone says, oh, no, no, no, no, no. They laugh. 375 00:36:02,910 --> 00:36:06,930 And then we all laughed together and I said, We have to write. If you don't laugh, you cry. 376 00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:10,470 So. So I joke about my problems, and I'm not. 377 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,719 I tell people there's no point putting a political face to the University of Oxford. 378 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:22,550 And so you do everything. And it's not possible for you to know everything that turns out to be foolish because you don't know. 379 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,240 And that's the only way you can learn. We were like to say something. Well, I don't know. 380 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:36,870 I I've just asked, you know, so this this I mean, you expected to be of a high intellectual standing, 381 00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:43,020 but not an all sufficient, you know, omnipotent intellectual. 382 00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:49,520 Mm hmm. That's and that's the point. So there's no pressure killing yourself. 383 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:53,850 You don't know? You ask. You don't know. 384 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,260 You find out, you know, and you never forget because you've been corrected. 385 00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:02,340 You know, so that's that's the one that is perfect. 386 00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:06,150 No, man that I know of or the lack thereof that is perfect. 387 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Everyone, even presidents, go through the worst of it's even the most successful people are still bothered by their own success. 388 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:23,200 So that's it for me. I think that's a really perfect piece of advice to end on. 389 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,730 Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your experiences. 390 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:29,320 Give.