Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic,
professional and personal lives and some clear your head of communications.
It was in college and I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
Today's guest is Mary Adeyemo, who is a fellow student here at Wolfson College.
She very quickly secured a special place in my heart after recording this podcast together and after interviewing her for Plans and Prospects 2022.
Now I want to ask Mary to think of three pivotal moments in her life.
She chose to talk through the most challenging times with admirable grace.
She's the recent winner of a Vice-Chancellor's Diversity Award, founder of her own business and all round force of motivation.
If you're lucky enough to catch her on college, your day is sure to get a little bit brighter.
Mary, over to you. Very much.
Okay. I think the first thing is that, you know, whilst growing up,
we already have like a perfect view of our life should be in our life years and then we know that people would die differently.
We do not expect them to die as early as, you know, they die or even when they are even older.
Not someone, them, you know, around us to eternity.
And so whilst growing up, I'm from a Christian background and I'm probably someone with pre,
you know, my family would do everything according to what the Bible sees like as it is written.
So you you're going to be blessed if you do ABC.
That was the orientation I had.
And I remember that that night my brother died, I had prayed very well before going to bed, so I had double confidence in my sleep.
But unfortunately. Twas the midnight.
An event that never happened before happened.
And I just heard noises and people shouting and screaming like voices coming from because I like to sleep a lot.
And then it happened that it turned out to be in my apartment.
In our apartment. And, you know, Margene, I've been 15, 20 people.
30 people that enables coming in. I like and I drew.
I mean, is this a dream? And then, you know, that moment change it for me.
But even before then, I still had the confidence that, no, this is probably a joke.
You know, we will get well.
I mean, never occurred to me that that could actually be the last time, you know, you ever stand on his feet to see, you know, my name is.
And so it changed everything, not just for me, but for my family members,
because I saw first time first and that young I lost someone close to me, not close to me, my lord.
You know, within the circumference of my realities go.
It looks like a joke. And it was even more painful because he had died because of a failure of the medical system in Nigeria.
So it was push you will it was painful because it's something that could have been rectified or something that could have been managed but lost,
you know, you know, led to the death of my brother.
So that changed the definition of life for me, because you can wake up today and tomorrow you're gone.
You can be alive today. So active and powerful. I remember we had even like an argument that night.
And so sometimes I'm like, this is really a dream.
You know, for the longest and even till now, it feels like maybe somewhere, you know.
So I didn't change. Like I said, it changed perspective of my life because I didn't automatically have to step
into the shoes I wasn't prepared to step into or I wasn't even prepared for.
And the second born, the first girl of my family were like, if you born,
if there's any responsibility in the African setting, automatically goes to the first woman.
And he was the first he was the first born. And so I automatically step into shoes that were clearly bigger than my legs.
And, you know, so that changed my perspective. It changed why reasoned.
You changed how I thought about things, not just on myself.
So I wasn't thinking a limb for myself. I said, I'm thinking for myself.
I need to get out of my junior ones.
I implication of my parents because it was a schoolboy, I should say he was you know, it was in my head was that I was just the chatterbox.
And then so sometimes my parents just think about it and I feel like, oh, if you were to be here, maybe you could have done this, that that's all.
I automatically took on responsibilities and I began to just do things that my parents were amazed that.
Mm. And that actually brought my family closer.
We were close, but it brought us closer, like. This is unbelievable.
You know, so that actually changed the trajectory of my life, of my thinking.
And even for my family. Yeah. And can I ask, what was the point of medical negligence that led to his death?
So remember that we are taking him to our ospital and the doctor on duty had refused to attend to him initially saying,
Oh, he wasn't on call, blah, blah, blah. And my mom, my dad's A.D. seen, you know, running around.
And he came finally. And it was just very few points about it.
And then he was like, it's passed. Like, everybody should go, like, not in an apple.
I mean, this is someone's son who's someone's brother.
No ambushes, nothing. Like we see people die everyday.
So it wasn't a big deal about his death, you know? So we felt like and I feel like if we had been attended to immediately we brought him in,
could have been, you know, situation might have been salvaged or might have been better controlled by.
And what was the reason that you had to bring him in in the first place? So like I said, I woke up to the news and to the noise in my apartment.
Garcia's room is just by my room, and I think it was convulsing.
You know, in Africa, they bring you a lot of all mechanisms.
Was funny in his mouth. I remember telling my parents to put hands in his mouth.
So you see them, you know, they look clean together. So he was having, like, a fit, like a convulsions.
Yeah. So. Well, any POW medical history in terms of maybe convulsing or anything like that.
So it really changed a lot for us because this is someone that we all went to bed together to pre active, you know, vibrance.
I mean it was quite an issue back, but like he was very active, vibrant.
He was a risky, you know. So it was so confusing that I would slip happy and off sad.
And I remember that that that night was a Sunday night in May, May 23rd, to be precise.
And what I was planning to go to school for, and I think we had a test or something and a plan B,
some of my friends were to meet and you see me the only soul that were coming back, you know, because his body did not.
His body was too warm, like a normal person till six, 7 a.m.
And so the doctor left was Nikki said, you're dead.
Nothing, no life support, no checking, was just there.
And he left us and his body still felt warm, like we could still feel veins, you know?
And I mean, that's that's a medical negligence, not just from General Hospital, but from the health sector generally in Nigeria.
So this is not this is not a fake that I just happened to me.
I know many people have been victims of similar realities and that's actually what support my interest in medical or like.
Mhm. What do you mean.
And my dad and my parents taking it all or you know the Nigerian point to do is so it's if it was meant to happen in happened there's nothing you can
do about is afraid of God even if you go to cause you can't bring the dead back to life you know that kind of culture unwanted desire to navigate.
Imagine people that don't even understand the basic rights that we have.
And what I mean, I was in secondary schools or had this background, but what it took it was, Oh, it's normal and there's nothing we can do about it.
And that's why I'm kind of, you know, interrogating and trying to fight back.
So you didn't so that you could accept that. Yeah. Reasoning. We have to fight those kind of biases.
Like more is made to Apple. No know wasn't meant to happen.
It wasn't meant to happen. Rather like we could have changed the narrative if things were in place.
If people where do you want it all to do and how they ought to have done it?
Do you mean are they also have done it? We're not going to have those kind of realities seen or it's a fate.
Oh, I mean, it is.
I think it was. It was man made my opinion wasn't it wasn't as a result of or time or anything.
I think it was just man made, which is very. Painful.
Yeah. And that experience then spurred you on to study medical law in Nigeria.
So I decided at the back of my mind that whatever I do.
Mm hmm. Medical law stands.
And so when I got into university, the only available course on Moodle was in health law, which I, I mean I distinctions in both terms.
I took the course and so were just kind of scratching the face, looking at it from a general point of view.
And, you know, even when I started working as a lawyer, when cases of medical negligence come, I'm always like, I always jump.
But it's usually one that involved a minor. Even when I was serving my first year and where I practise as a lawyer, as a full time lawyer.
So it's something that has just always been at the back of my mind.
And especially because even lawyers in Nigeria look at it like it's an area we should concentrate on.
You know, yeah. I mean, it's not it's not as interesting.
But what's the economic implication for us?
You know, because, again, it seem like you're fighting you're doing something on human rights and don't look at it beyond that scope,
that now medical law as well. Even though it prompted my interest, the death of my brother prompted my interest in medical.
Negligence. So even though my.
Can I continue? Yeah, of course. Even though my. My brother's prompted my interest in medical law.
Like it was a prompt. And now I see that.
Oh, there's more to medical law, but it's not something that is really being advocated for even by senior lawyers or judges.
We don't have medical tech law, but I have a lot of issues around medical law that's just beyond human rights and negligence.
You have patents, you have access to vaccines and medicines.
You know, you have it in international level, you have it in regional level, and then you have it in the local level.
So it's I think there's a need for reincarnation of what medical law really is.
Yeah. And do you think in in Nigeria, that kind of war that you come up against,
is that also partly to do with that bias that you felt that you were kind of battling against in the very beginning of people thinking,
you know, this is something that is you know, it's just meant to happen. It's God's will.
Does that kind of infiltrate all the way through, or do you think that was just something that you dealt with at the very beginning?
I think it's it's something that continues because people still think about it the way that it's meant to happen.
So in that kind of religious context, that even comes into the practise.
Yeah. So even people that I educated, you actually find them, you know, taking up an action against a medical practitioner.
And again, this is coupled with the fact that the judicial system takes time.
It's demanding. You don't get justice. I mean, all of these things play.
You know, there are factors that come to play.
But essentially the point is that many Nigerians, the average Nigerian, is, you know, not interested in pursuing a cause like that.
Just like, I mean, what why starts again anyway to take time. And I still don't get justice.
So everybody just on see, let me bury the dead.
Let me know. Just settle this internally and I'll be fine.
Yeah. So that kind of leads me to your next pivot point as well,
which was not making a first class at the at the Nigerian law school, even though you had three A's.
Yeah, that sounds like quite a frustrating experience. Yeah. So.
Like I said, everything is was like was momentum was is holistic.
And whilst I was an undergrad in my in my undergraduate university,
I remember that I had not started with I had not been the first in class or the second and the third or even the 10th in class until much later.
And I'm like, Oh, I'm on top of the class. How come, you know, I wasn't paying so much attention?
And then because of that, I was in I was involved in a lot of things.
Like I was in the student representative council, I was in charge.
I wasn't that I was in sports. I was everywhere I go, everywhere you look around, you just find me.
And because for me, like I always tell people, impact is very big for me.
Everyone can read, um, pass, but not everyone can make an impact.
You know what people? People mean? I'll say hello. Hi to you.
But they look at you and use and apply your life principles to gas.
So and that's you're making an impact. You may not be aware of it, but it's very essential for me.
Like I said, I start I stopped thinking about myself when I wasn't feeling the big shoes of my elder brother.
So for me, it wasn't just about me. The picture was about me, my siblings, my peer and my family, people around me, people in my community.
What can I do to make things easier for me? You know, easier for the society, you know, easier for everyone.
Let everyone feel ease, you know?
So. The expectations were really high.
I must see, because like I said, even at my graduations when people were like, I want the best for you so that someone else,
is it possible for me to be doing all of that and then still be the best grades in student?
So the the let me say the pressure was really high.
Do you think that you put the pressure on yourself or is that other people putting pressure on you?
Are people putting pressure on me and them like, I don't like to put pressure on myself.
I don't I just do things as it come to me naturally, because the moment I start to struggle with it, I don't always achieve the populous.
I mean, on the face of it, you look good. But internally you didn't do anything.
And for me, I need to settle internally first before I start showing people this is what I can do.
I'm not I'm not here to impress anyone. I'm just here to improve better on my yesterday.
So I'm not competing with anyone and competing with the mirror of yesterday.
Yeah. And, you know. Incrementally.
So at law school the pressures would high, of course, and it was even more in that news award.
Interesting, because some of my classmates, one of my classmates from my undergrad school became the best writing students at law school.
So the pressure, I mean, I felt good.
But at the same time, you know, people are people started even mistaking and sort of sticky me for the person if he gets so.
But it was it was it changed my perspective about life, especially because after that time I saw the Earth, I didn't make it first class.
And in Nigerian laws going to Niger and also you graduated your last grade.
So if you have all A's and one D, you go to the D, so you have all these and won't be one B-plus.
You go with B-plus. So if you have all all A's, only one, if you feel competition at odds, also graduates with your least to least greed.
So. Yeah, I did.
You know, I tried my best.
I tried to also be very active in law school because, again, I mean, we kind of remember the people that I'm in, first class or second class or par.
I mean, I'm very second class all the time.
A lot of people that middle class, because every year people come on board, new people come on board, new people come on board.
But within your time there, some people remember you for what you did them for how you impacted them.
For me, that was very important for me. Mm hmm. And, yeah, I mean, even do I feel like I could have achieved better if not for the grading system?
I don't blame the grading system to give him what I deserved because at least people got A's and he got old.
So there's no need to blame the system. There's just a need to work better and see how I can improve myself.
And like I said, I was scared that I wasn't going to get into my dream life and all of that.
But I even got I got into my dream law, had offers.
So it did it didn't change the trajectory of where we were trying to go.
You didn't change the trajectory. But it helps me to understand, you know, how life can be.
Sometimes it can be hard sometimes to come down and sometimes you put all of your effort in.
You still don't see come forth. And that's what life is about, is not just always going to go according to my plan,
according to my effort, just it's going to go how it is going to go.
But you just have to do what you have to do. Yeah. So you put in your best, do what you can do.
But then when things happen, you know, don't kill yourself.
Because I feel bad. I was going to. I think that's the first time I was gradually going to slip into depression because I was thinking of all that.
Mm hmm. You know, it was like changing how you felt about yourself.
Yeah, because I was. I was. I was. I won my results.
Let me just see that my mom was always angry with me.
I was Monique. She's like, God forbid, oh, I don't want to get in our lives.
You know, when she was angry that you didn't get the results, you know, that you were, like, moping.
Yeah. She's like. She's like, people are.
People will be kind of result. I have people I'm dying to have, and we are not the same.
Our goals are as we know. Some people just want a drink, a drink, a glass of water.
Some people want it. Well, I want it well, yeah.
You know and I can be compare myself is they all some people wanted a glass of water and didn't have a glass.
It was Ashley Glass, all of them. But I wanted well, you know, if they wanted a glass of wine, only got a glass of water.
Good for them. That's one thing. But I didn't get what I wanted.
Yeah. And so she just. I was going. So on the standards, that is what life is.
Yeah. And you have to be able to show people that even when you at your lowest, that is not the end of it.
It's not. Game over is like the game is just about to stop for you because for some people is
game over the backseat what you want to achieve and then that's all they can rest.
But you you the game is just have to stop for you. So if you then say I'm not interested, you have lost, you know, you cannot get victory.
Oh, yeah, very. In fact, out from the battle, you face it.
Oh, yeah. Weak, tired. We just keep moving.
Well, like you're crawlin with a flying whether you are, you know.
Whatever. Walk in. Just keep moving. It's not in the magnitude of of steps you take.
It's in the consistency of the steps that you take. And I think that actually really sums up the theme of all of your pivot points, actually,
because something that really struck me when you sent those through is that these are three very hard hitting, difficult moments in your life.
Yeah. But I also think from knowing you a little bit, from the conversations that we've had,
your your attitude towards these particular moments and towards your life is very much one of strength.
And, you know, you hit these difficult moments, but your perspective is still you know, you carry on.
You do your best. You keep going. Yeah. And and where do you think that that strength comes from?
Because that almost seems intrinsic to you before any of these things really happened.
Yeah, I think for my parents, you know, I was shown with a friend yesterday that I,
I saw my parents go from on that beneath the ground to the ground, then gradually on top of the ground and then maybe stay flying, you know.
So I, I grew with my parents. So when people say, oh, whilst I was young, we have this car.
I can't really it's just my story when people say, Oh, I used to be days when I travel.
Like going to the mall was a big deal for me at some point in my life.
So if my dad says we are going to the mall bus like, wow, we are going to the mall like me and my siblings are now talking about.
We are going to be excited. Yeah, we are going to an eatery. Mm hmm.
Like, for some people, that's a red flag for them. So when I tell people that, oh, that's not regular for me,
they did not believe you because I don't wear that on my face like or I've never been to the cinemas before.
Oh, I've never. No. So. And my my parents have tried to teach me and my siblings.
What integrity is that? Even in your absence, the devil should be able to see me through to every other thing.
But she wouldn't do that. She will do every other thing, but she will never do that.
So and it's irrespective of the situation, irrespective of what is going on.
I remember that my at some point, I mean, my parents, like I say,
the girl in front of me and I think they had some financial constraints and he had like some church money in his hand.
He could have spent it for the meantime till, you know, because of course, we're going to get money at some point.
But he did not. So all of us had to suffer. And so I we it's something that I enjoyed from whilst I was growing up.
My parents, they communicate. The problem was this is a problem.
Yeah. You don't seem to have ideas. Well, this is a problem and this is what we are going to do.
So sometimes everybody would always eat. So they were going so fast because the problem is there's no food at all.
Right. So we we got used to understanding the problems and then we had to creatively come up with solutions.
So even when our parents are trying to break the box on, you know, like the children are, we're like, no, no, no, we are together.
And we understand. And even when they give us, we still come up with the money they give us.
Why do you spend money? We know that you don't have any of it. Yeah. So we kept it.
Mm hmm. So it just naturally grew me, like.
I mean, you have to fight. It's like if you see that you're from a wealthy family or you make a wealthy family.
Mm hmm. You have to be on either of the divide.
He's also been. That's just fall from it. When I come wealthy, you know, opportunities are we can we can determine backgrounds.
I mean the families are a come from the Kennedys.
I mean the kind of language that we speak or we can determine how we want to respond to this reality.
And so for me, whilst growing up, my parents have taught me how to respond to the realities and things that I do not quite agree with them on.
I try to fight it like, no, no, no, no, don't. You know, I, I try to, you know, candidly, that's an opinion.
So that's I think that's that's what I was actually built me internally as sometimes even in the face of this thing,
it's not like I construct like, oh, I lost my brother. I'm the hero.
No. I'm the. I'm not the hero then.
I'm just. It's just an insight I begin to see. Oh, I've done this better, you know?
Oh, I was money. My result old. I was crying. I feel like the war that ended.
I feel like I disappointed a lot of people that looked up to me. But yeah, if I never did, never look up to me again.
So what? What else can I do? What more can I do?
You know. So. And when I see people that are in similar situations let me tell me about the end will be I
feel lost school I'm like if you're law school you can always try your feel lost now but yeah,
that's why it is an opportunity to take receipts you know, papers.
They understand that reality. I'm not a Oh, you feel low school and you can never be a lawyer again.
Ever know they've provided room for that reality?
He did not come. When you expect it, it's what you wanted it.
But it's you, Castle. Get it? That's what matters. And then how did you feel when you didn't?
When the Rhodes Scholarship for 2020? Let me say first that I was grateful that I made it to do.
Should you just know as well that that's the third and final pivot point.
Another very, very hard at the moment. Yeah actually just first that I'm.
I felt very excited when I was shortlisted for the year.
So you're one of the top ten finalists for West Africa for 2020?
The year before I checked, I checked with scholars around the world on this application.
For me, I don't have a place here. I don't even come close.
And so the second year, so imposter syndrome came to me and my dad asked me like the last time, Oh, did you send me the application?
I know I did not do the win, you know, roots columns.
Yeah. I said I was like, okay, so see, I am not like that.
You know, I don't have an exceptional quality, my own opinion at the time.
And they told me that's. Just apply a light.
There's no point wasting my time. So you don't just apply. I remember, like I said, we did my final application.
10 minutes of deadline. And so I locked my mind on anything because of course, like I said, after reading,
I was just I had this imposter syndrome that I don't I don't come close.
But to God's glory, I was shortlisted for The Different Round.
The first long list, the email I got. I was on a bike in Nigeria called Okada.
I always tripped when I got the image. I read this guy's meetings, so made a mistake and I was so happy like I was longlisted.
And that's I mean, that was the height of all this so big coming after, you know, I didn't make it.
So I you make it first class from law school. It was so big for me that I wasn't long listed as one of like 300 people.
It didn't matter to me. I'll still be thousands of people. That was not.
And then gradually, you know, they sort of differentiate least and I'm ready to protect him and I will disguise the admitted mistake again, you know.
And, you know, at the time of the ovation, he said for the ten finalists, then I think maybe, maybe.
And I said, I beat expectations, but expectations.
And so when I didn't. Finally make it again.
I just feel like, oh, you know, and that yeah, I think I got into Cambridge without funding, you know, everything.
Just I feel like it's not for you, you know?
Oxford is not for you. Cambridge is not for you.
Can we just do the give you admission? You know, it's just the imposter syndrome.
Then came in like, you know, I told you.
I told you. I told you. And at that point, I just told myself that even if you be me ten years to keep on playing.
Every year they recognised this skill gives a play.
Yeah. And even if it takes ten games, only ten to do so [INAUDIBLE] just give up and I'll keep applying.
And so I could. Michelle I've applied to this school.
They didn't pick me and I'm like, up in there, they look at me like, No, you have not like I have been there.
I am. And they don't.
They think I'm just making up the story. You know, I can show you my rejection emails.
Why do people think you're making up the story? Maybe I just sympathise with them and make them feel good.
I'm making you feel good. I'm just telling you what it is, you know?
And I feel I see people come to visit me. I don't think you have problems.
You can almost. I know. I understand.
I've been there. Even now, I'm still there.
Because for every mountain, don't climb. Being there comes another.
Except you want to settle for less. So the height of your achievements is the least of unknown persons.
So if you want to keep progressing by the time you are done, so hit this targets.
You don't sleep. You move on to another thing for as long as you're alive.
They are always, you know, you don't need to be and still be to for the rest of my life, you know, tomorrow or next year,
because it is so much to me is like food when you don't eating unsatisfied there comes on a down there that you have to satisfy.
When you don't drink in water, you don't see or have drunk water to drink for the next two weeks.
Tomorrow, in fact, in another 10 minutes, you can just feel thirsty.
That's why life is. Achievements like that. We are doing.
Oh. You slip away, Dusty?
That's the way it is. And now how do you feel?
How do you feel dealing with that reality now that you are here and in Oxford?
And I should also just say that I think imposter syndrome is a thing that really everybody does feel here.
I think that it happens and it'll continue to happen again.
Like, I came in here and I see when people, you know, introduce themselves.
How did I make it into this room? You know? And then you begin to speak to people and realise.
So they feel what you feel is what they feel. They feel inadequate.
I'm like, Who? Whereas Yahoo. Yeah.
So everybody is in the same space and the same bubble.
And so, in fact, when I came in and the first set of applications that I made,
all I wanted to do this I to help you know actually it was sorry because that a lot of people in that.
Only fact that I'm in Oxford doesn't take that away from me. Everybody's also in Oxford.
We are playing for the same thing. But like me, I got the first one.
I just felt like. Come on. So now people say we are sorry and we regret and say, Oh, it's fine.
It's nice. Just give me a good opportunity to focus on other things.
Yeah. So that's it for me? Yeah, I think it very much is like a pressure cooker for people.
Once you are actually in here, you know, it's like all of the pressure that you arrive here with, you hold onto that.
But then once you start speaking to each other, those walls break down a little bit.
And the pressure I guess the pressure is still there. Yeah, but I guess it makes it easier to know that everybody feels the same.
Yeah, I think what Bina should add is what is called collaborative advantage.
That's the one thing that I've been able to use, and that is working for me.
So it's collaboration over competition.
So when you guys are competing and looking at it from one perspective, I want to hear this, but when you guys are collaborative.
I bring my ideas to table.
You bring your ideas to the table, we will submergence and we are able to, you know, conquer what we would have done individually and get intention.
We were able to bring attention to the table. We have 20. Hmm.
So it's called collaborative advantage. But many people feel it's a competition.
It's not a competition. Yeah, you are competing.
But it did get a compete and you're collaborating for the future because they are going to be in the University of Oxford forever as a student.
There's a timeframe, there's a time limits, you know, for which you can be here for.
So as much as you have a distinction from Oxford, I don't have a distinction in relationship.
You don't have a distinction in experience. You don't have to be.
Well, the first time I went to the Black Matic effect.
I don't support those in that school of government. And I was you know, I entered the building and I was surprised like this.
Lots of people in here. I've never seen this before.
You know, if I've never if I didn't go there, draw my University of Oxford, it's always, oh, this is beautiful.
Mr. Wellesley went off with concerns about it. Like, I didn't go there.
You know, they look at me in a funny way.
So wherever that we are in or whatever, whatever stage we're going through in life, we should understand that it's a matter of time.
No matter how difficult today's days, it's we end as we all come.
It's not easy. Or because it's difficult to be found out, too.
Mm hmm. And so that's the framework I have in my mind. No matter how prejudiced I am, this time we'll go.
And another time will come. So it's it's it's a it is a time for you.
Mm hmm. And I love that idea as well of collaborating for the future.
And on that note, what do you feel is next for you on that note?
I feel that I'm just very open minded to work with people.
Like I said, I just just came back from the BBC.
And because I'm teaching my system to teach on a course for the masses of public policy,
when I was coming here to have that a back of my mind that that was going to happen or was even going to be possible.
So for the future, I just want to like I always see impacts impacting people is, is a big thing for me.
You know, when people tell me, oh, what you said helps me, you know what you said to me,
I was going to give up on this, but I decided to do it again, you know, and I ended well, you know, so.
Next for me is to concentrate on my dphil so be open minded to absorb as much as possible like a form sponge soaking in as much as possible.
The pressure because the worst kind of prejudice, the pressure that you put on yourself because you just, you scholarly, you know, you will move in.
I just think you're dying. I mean, eventually die.
So don't pressure yourself. Step out of that kind of difficult.
Well, step, step out of it. Discuss with people. For me, I joke about my problems.
Like, Oh, I took a maltese.
Yeah. And someone says, oh, no, no, no, no, no. They laugh.
And then we all laughed together and I said, We have to write. If you don't laugh, you cry.
So. So I joke about my problems, and I'm not.
I tell people there's no point putting a political face to the University of Oxford.
And so you do everything. And it's not possible for you to know everything that turns out to be foolish because you don't know.
And that's the only way you can learn. We were like to say something. Well, I don't know.
I I've just asked, you know, so this this I mean, you expected to be of a high intellectual standing,
but not an all sufficient, you know, omnipotent intellectual.
Mm hmm. That's and that's the point. So there's no pressure killing yourself.
You don't know? You ask. You don't know.
You find out, you know, and you never forget because you've been corrected.
You know, so that's that's the one that is perfect.
No, man that I know of or the lack thereof that is perfect.
Everyone, even presidents, go through the worst of it's even the most successful people are still bothered by their own success.
So that's it for me. I think that's a really perfect piece of advice to end on.
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
Give.