1 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:20,900 Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives. 2 00:00:21,290 --> 00:00:28,190 I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wilson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast. 3 00:00:30,170 --> 00:00:35,150 I was thrilled this month to get another chance to speak with Wolfson alumnus Shaharzad Akbar, 4 00:00:35,450 --> 00:00:38,420 who was the first woman from Afghanistan to study at Oxford. 5 00:00:39,110 --> 00:00:44,740 We spoke earlier this year for an interview and plans and prospects, and she's since moved back to Oxford over the summer. 6 00:00:45,730 --> 00:00:53,440 Shaharzad has worked across public and private sectors or in organisations with a variety of different humanitarian missions, 7 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,830 but with one thing in common, which is Afghanistan, her home country. 8 00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:04,030 So I started by asking her if that central theme of her work was prevalent, even in her earliest academic experiences, too. 9 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:14,440 I felt very strongly about. My education, helping me serve in Afghanistan. 10 00:01:14,620 --> 00:01:19,500 And I think that became much more pronounced when once I was outside Afghanistan. 11 00:01:19,510 --> 00:01:29,409 So in 2006, I ended up going to Smith College in Northampton, yes, Northampton, Massachusetts, in the US and being away from home. 12 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:36,760 Every class that I was taking, I was thinking, how does this teach me skills and brings me insights that can help me with being 13 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:41,230 an active member of the community of the society back home in Afghanistan. 14 00:01:41,860 --> 00:01:47,409 So I studied anthropology, but I tried to kind of learn about West while I was there, 15 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:50,980 particularly the youth, because of USA's very strong presence in Afghanistan, 16 00:01:51,400 --> 00:02:00,130 but also the broader region about Islam, as there's a very prominent, you know, factor of our lives in Afghanistan. 17 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:06,190 And so that was always part of my, you know, my thinking and. 18 00:02:06,190 --> 00:02:10,420 SMITH And then later in Oxford as well, when I decided to study development studies, 19 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:18,549 I thought that studying this particular and this particular department could help me have a critical approach to what was going on in 20 00:02:18,550 --> 00:02:26,260 Afghanistan and hopefully be helpful in those conversations about how the country should move forward and how how we should prioritise, 21 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:33,160 how we should tackle poverty. So I think staying connected to Afghanistan was very important to me. 22 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:41,140 And other than, you know, some people have talents and they know that since they're very young, they are good in music or sports. 23 00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:44,440 For me, it was never like that. It was more about. 24 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,480 So I had to say a little bit about what do I study when I went to Smith, for instance? 25 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:56,170 And then I thought, maybe this is the way in which I can make myself more useful back home. 26 00:02:57,430 --> 00:03:04,390 And so that also impacted the decisions that I made about my work and how to, you know, the whole trajectory of my work. 27 00:03:04,790 --> 00:03:08,890 It wasn't so much about I want to stay in this one field and become an expert in it. 28 00:03:09,220 --> 00:03:16,540 It was more about this is where I think I can be more useful with the skills that I have and stay more connected. 29 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:20,260 Hmm. And how did you find it culturally when you first moved to the U.S.? 30 00:03:21,340 --> 00:03:28,360 I mean, it was a huge shift, of course, because I had been on short trips the West to Germany actually, in fact, only. 31 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:31,950 And I had we had lived in Pakistan as refugees. 32 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,650 I had been on short trips to India and Nepal and countries in the region, 33 00:03:36,220 --> 00:03:44,280 but had never been to the U.S. And my parents had, of course, never left the West as well. 34 00:03:44,290 --> 00:03:50,340 So it was. It was a little hard for them to offer me any guidance on what this might look like. 35 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:57,259 I had worked with Americans. I knew American you know, American journalists who are working in Afghanistan, 36 00:03:57,260 --> 00:04:02,749 aid workers, but just arriving in the U.S. and then going to Smith College. 37 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:12,559 It was a it was a big transition, really a big transition, because I think I first I mean, you start noticing the differences, 38 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:19,390 even small differences become so big and pronounced, you know, from the differences in architecture. 39 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,580 I remember writing home about the fact that the doors were very heavy. 40 00:04:22,910 --> 00:04:34,670 So it's like a minor thing, but to to food, to the way people interact and the way families organise themselves, everything was very different. 41 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:42,050 I had read a lot of American literature before I arrived in the US, but living inside that culture was certainly. 42 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:50,620 Disorienting, I would say initially, very disorienting. This was the first time you're away from your own family as well. 43 00:04:50,710 --> 00:04:57,420 Yes, absolutely. I mean, I have it's now that I'm raising my own children, I noticed this. 44 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,329 You know, we we put them in their own bedrooms since they're very little. 45 00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:07,120 But now we I was raised in Afghanistan. I mean, you are in the same room with your siblings or even your parents still. 46 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,969 You're much older. You share everything. You know, you have a much closer relationship in the family. 47 00:05:12,970 --> 00:05:17,320 People stay with their families till they are married. So for me, it was a very big thing that I was. 48 00:05:18,790 --> 00:05:19,090 You know, 49 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:26,620 it's travelling across oceans and going to have completely different timezone being so far away from my parents and my siblings and my and my family. 50 00:05:27,070 --> 00:05:31,060 It was really hard. I missed them every day. I missed Afghanistan every day. 51 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:41,740 And I think I found that community first and foremost and the International International Students Organisation on campus. 52 00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:49,989 It felt like we share some of our struggles because we are all away from home and you know, the differences in food and culture, 53 00:05:49,990 --> 00:05:56,510 but also issues because I felt like me and several of my friends in the International 54 00:05:56,510 --> 00:06:03,010 Business Organisation because we had come on financial aid or some forms of scholarships, 55 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,870 are not the economic concerns or so much more pronounced for us in our daily lives. 56 00:06:07,870 --> 00:06:13,150 Like we weren't sure if we could make it back home, if we could get the money to buy a ticket to go back home for summer. 57 00:06:13,630 --> 00:06:18,670 But also we didn't know what to do if we didn't go because we couldn't afford to be in the U.S. for salmon. 58 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:29,500 So these things consumed a lot of our, you know, brain, which wasn't the case for our American classmates and peers for most of them. 59 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:41,740 But also being exposed to I mean. I think racism in the US just trying to figure out how what that is and what's the response to that. 60 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:49,350 What was your experience of that? Personally, I think it was very it was a very interesting time to be an African in the U.S. 61 00:06:49,350 --> 00:06:50,970 Right. This was in 2006. 62 00:06:51,660 --> 00:06:59,010 I felt like many Americans, very even well-educated Americans, knew very little about what was their country doing in Afghanistan. 63 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:04,440 They also knew very little about what's going on with Afghanistan, Afghan women's situation. 64 00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:11,100 There was also not a very kind perception of Muslim woman, Muslim people, Muslims in general. 65 00:07:11,550 --> 00:07:17,430 So I remember when, you know, shootings would happen in the U.S., unfortunately, and this is common, 66 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:22,020 we would always pray that a muslim is not involved because we worried about backlash to 67 00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:29,879 ourselves and to the extended Muslim community and the U.S. It wasn't a very post-9-11. 68 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:39,900 It wasn't a very friendly environment. I don't have many, you know, racist interactions against me per se. 69 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,440 We were in a college community, five sheltered, very protected. 70 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:51,359 But there were very there were strange questions, people that that clearly showed that people had these perceptions about, you know, Afghanistan. 71 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,849 They they found it hard to believe that I had read the literature that I had read, that they had had access to books. 72 00:07:56,850 --> 00:08:01,200 And, you know, my parents really invested in me being well read, relatively. 73 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:11,520 And, you know, that my father wouldn't my parents weren't trying to marry me off or force me or things like that. 74 00:08:11,790 --> 00:08:16,409 There was all of these concerns about if I go back home, might look like my parents sold me. 75 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:19,680 And I was like, this is all the way to the U.S. society. I don't think so. 76 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Don't worry. It's going to be fine. There are other things to say about. 77 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:27,479 So there was all of that, all of those elements going on and, you know, 78 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,320 kind of people misunderstanding what happened in 911 if Afghans were directly involved. 79 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,940 And we always had to say, no, it wasn't, you know, it was actually people from other places. 80 00:08:35,940 --> 00:08:39,269 But also it's more complicated than that. So there was that. 81 00:08:39,270 --> 00:08:45,120 But also, I think the racism. Against African Americans as well. 82 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,820 And the racism that I saw my friends who are black who are experiencing. 83 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:59,460 And it was just I really had I had read about it, but I really hadn't expected it to be so structural and. 84 00:09:00,620 --> 00:09:04,630 And racism is a huge it's a huge issue in the U.S., right. 85 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:06,409 You can skip it. You can't miss it. 86 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:16,069 And it was just really shocking to me, I think, because you think about developed countries and you think about what development means. 87 00:09:16,070 --> 00:09:20,510 I mean, they had nice stores, great infrastructure, electricity all the time, 88 00:09:20,510 --> 00:09:27,260 but so many issues that they were grappling with homelessness, racism, of course, sexism. 89 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,809 So I think in that sense, you know, you do have this coming from a from a very poor country. 90 00:09:32,810 --> 00:09:36,470 You do have this somewhat rosy, misguided, and especially when you're young. 91 00:09:36,830 --> 00:09:39,710 Of how the West works and what development means. 92 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:46,170 And then you come into these societies and you live and you realise that everyone is grappling in a way with different issues. 93 00:09:46,190 --> 00:09:50,839 Yeah, that's a very good point. And that also reminds you something else that you mentioned, 94 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:57,170 that your time at Smith's College felt like a kind of introduction in next steps in your feminist education. 95 00:09:57,710 --> 00:10:01,460 So what were those next steps and what does a feminist education mean to you? 96 00:10:02,450 --> 00:10:11,299 I mean, in that sense, Smith was really incredible for me because I, I had thought that I knew some things a little bit about feminism. 97 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:18,440 I had heard I grew up reading the lives of women, biographies of women from across the world because my my father, 98 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,110 my parents were very intentional about as having access to this. 99 00:10:21,770 --> 00:10:27,979 But when I came to Smith Smith, there was an effort all the time to integrate this feminist lens. 100 00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:29,540 And so everything was static. 101 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:35,720 So if we were if we were talking about labour, we were definitely talking about women's labour as well, women's unpaid labour. 102 00:10:36,290 --> 00:10:44,540 If we were talking about trauma, we were talking about, you know, anything, we were talking about conflict on the syllabus. 103 00:10:44,540 --> 00:10:51,110 There was, there were, there was material written by women and there was material talking about women's experiences. 104 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:57,020 And that really made a huge difference because there was unconscious attempts. 105 00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:04,850 In in college itself to actually, you know, to remind us that we don't know the histories of women. 106 00:11:04,850 --> 00:11:08,630 We don't know the stories of women, that we underestimate the contribution of women. 107 00:11:10,290 --> 00:11:14,580 To the planets and and a conscious attempt to undo that to some extent. 108 00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:20,350 And, of course, there was also discussion about intersectionality. You know, what about women who are slaves? 109 00:11:20,370 --> 00:11:24,720 What about women who come from, you know, poor working woman? 110 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:33,629 And all of that really expanded my understanding of what it means to have a feminist lens, what it means to have a feminist education. 111 00:11:33,630 --> 00:11:40,920 It's not just about being in an a women's college and kind of talking about feminism as a as a as a political idea. 112 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,110 It's about really looking at everything from a completely different lens or a from a wider, 113 00:11:46,110 --> 00:11:50,640 more expanded lens, looking at the experiences, looking at the issues. 114 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,040 And that was really helpful for my future work because when I went back to work 115 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,660 in Afghanistan and I was sitting around the table on these discussions about, 116 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:06,820 you know, what would a budget look like? What would the curriculum look like? 117 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:13,020 I wasn't just thinking about are women being employed to work on this, is women's expertise being utilised? 118 00:12:13,020 --> 00:12:20,040 But also what's the content of what's being developed and to what extent that reflects the needs and experiences of women? 119 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:30,330 So I'm really grateful for that. But also I met, I think really for the first time I met powerful women who are our alumni, 120 00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:34,080 who aren't leaders in business or politics would come to Smith. 121 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:40,470 And we had we had this day where we celebrated our night and they would come and they talk about their work and, 122 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:43,830 you know, how they got to where they are. 123 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:48,990 But what was for me somewhat revolutionary was they were not just talking about how they succeeded. 124 00:12:48,990 --> 00:12:53,790 They were also talking about we are they failed in the struggles that they had to balance 125 00:12:54,090 --> 00:12:59,819 their work and the demands of society from them as woman moments when they felt really torn, 126 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:04,080 moments when they felt really pushed because they had to pick one or the other. 127 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:14,790 And it was very liberating to hear that it's not just me, you know, that women are taught unfortunately, 128 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:18,750 societies teach women to doubt themselves from very early on and that, 129 00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:23,610 you know, very strong, very powerful women struggle with this and that the society, 130 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:29,130 the workplace, the family is not set up to support women, pursue their ambitions. 131 00:13:29,490 --> 00:13:36,200 So there is always a struggle. It's not just your struggle. And I found that really incredibly eye opening. 132 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:44,490 So you went from Smith's College to Oxford to Wolfson specifically, where you're under a mining lease presidency. 133 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:48,780 And I know you've mentioned to me before she was very much a role model for you. 134 00:13:49,230 --> 00:13:53,250 And I also think it's lovely that she gives such a glowing review as well. 135 00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:56,880 It sounds like such a positive and kind of nurturing relationship that you two had. 136 00:13:57,630 --> 00:14:04,200 Yes, absolutely. I mean, when I came to Oxford, it was very different than Smith, you'd think. 137 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,750 Okay, English speaking countries, west. 138 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:12,720 Of course, there are cultural differences that I notice, but also there are cultural differences in terms of the educational system. 139 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:21,540 I think in Oxford in that sense, in terms of the academic side at work, I struggled much more than and Smith. 140 00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:24,990 I struggled much more. I didn't feel like I could fit in. 141 00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:26,940 So it was harder academically, 142 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:36,030 but socially I had a very rich life and I think her minded being here really made a huge difference because I felt I felt connected. 143 00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:36,899 I felt seen. 144 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:45,510 I felt like I was contributing to the college and I just had a living, breathing role model, you know, who was well spending time with us. 145 00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:57,540 And I was very intimidated by her, but also really inspired but inspired by her and just really valued that relationship that we formed. 146 00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:01,889 It was it was a source of inspiration. 147 00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:14,820 It was a source of joy. I think, even because I think here in Oxford, there is I felt more of a distance between the students and the faculty. 148 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:18,420 Right. It's just a setup is completely different. 149 00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:24,510 People are very as I have said before, my supervisor, for instance, was very supportive. 150 00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:27,810 But it's just a different setup than what we had. 151 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:38,160 And. Smith And in a context like that, to have a relationship to and to be supported by someone like her, Myeni was leading this institution. 152 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:45,840 Wolfson College. It also helped my confidence, my, you know, my sense that I'm contributing. 153 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,580 I, I have a voice that can matter. MM. 154 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:58,560 And you mentioned then and so in 2011 was when you left Oxford and you started working in Afghanistan straight away after you left. 155 00:15:59,010 --> 00:16:05,249 Yeah. So I had start I had worked in Afghanistan every year, every summer break, actually, throughout my studies and Smith as well. 156 00:16:05,250 --> 00:16:09,710 So every year I was I was working and summer I went back. I worked and then I. 157 00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:14,639 Return to my studies and 2010 I went back. 158 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:21,780 When I went for my summer break, I ended up and for my research, for my thesis, I ended up setting up this consultation, 159 00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:27,120 a consultancy firm with several other friends who had just graduated from Western 160 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,590 universities and had gone back to Kabul and wanted to take the next step in their career. 161 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:37,850 So when I went back in 2011, I was already going to something that we had started to set up. 162 00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:46,620 It was very initial stages, but then for me, in my mind, that was the end of my journey in the West, in a sense. 163 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,069 At that time I felt like, okay, I'm back and this is my life. 164 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:53,639 This is the beginning of my journey in academia at that point. Yeah, absolutely. 165 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,890 Was that was that something that crossed your mind? Really? 166 00:16:55,890 --> 00:17:01,230 Was it like I'm leaving academia and now I'm going into the, you know, the kind of industry world? 167 00:17:01,570 --> 00:17:03,510 Is that something that you felt? Absolutely. 168 00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:12,060 Because I also my my supervisor, for instance, really encouraged me to consider doing a dear fellow, putting in application and several other friends. 169 00:17:12,510 --> 00:17:17,610 Partly not because I was great academically, but because they were so light for my safety. 170 00:17:17,610 --> 00:17:20,669 I think the news from Afghanistan coming to everybody was so bad. 171 00:17:20,670 --> 00:17:27,420 There were there was an increase in violence in 2011, the news of, you know, suicide attacks, targeted killings. 172 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,590 And people were like, you're going to get killed. 173 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,860 Let's just just follow that up and go. 174 00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:38,700 And they fell into that and then get killed. But I had thought about that. 175 00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:43,709 I thought about my father also was telling me, maybe you want to pursue education further. 176 00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:51,300 Why not? Now that you're there, you know, think about the. And I just I just felt so restless to be on the ground. 177 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:57,030 I just felt so restless to try to experiment with some of the things that I had learned. 178 00:17:57,210 --> 00:18:04,980 I felt I had been away from home for so long. I was worried about feeling being disconnected slowly and kind of getting too used to life here. 179 00:18:05,370 --> 00:18:10,170 So I gave it a lot of thoughts, but I thought not this is the time to go. 180 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:16,979 And and basically, as they say, I hit the ground running because I went and as soon as I arrived, 181 00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:22,920 I already had to work on the start up that we had started up and it took a while. 182 00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:23,430 Yeah. 183 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:32,310 And so this was one of your pivot point is this feeling of for the first time being fully immersed in your own country as a young professional woman. 184 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,450 How did that feel? It was you know, it was such a difficult time. 185 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:41,280 But I, I remember feeling so proud in a way, 186 00:18:41,730 --> 00:18:51,060 and also feeling really like I'm where I meant to be and waking up every morning and thinking this is going to be a really hard day, 187 00:18:51,360 --> 00:19:00,360 but I'm glad I meant to be. And that's that's a very special feeling, because when I was in Smith, when I was in Oxford, I did question, you know, 188 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:06,900 is this where I meant to be when everything is going gone back home, you know, should I be should I be doing more? 189 00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:11,639 Should I be there? You know, I'm not with my parents, with my family. 190 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,879 I'm not helping with their financial struggles. I'm not with my siblings. 191 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,700 I'm not in my country at a time of great change and upheaval and opportunity. 192 00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:24,809 So the feeling that I had was now, you know, this is it. 193 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:28,650 This is the beginning of the rest of my life. I am I'm here. 194 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:35,190 I'm trying to contribute. It's really difficult. But I have made my decision and I am where I meant to be. 195 00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:42,989 And in every there was kind of a kind of not having a plan, but like building networks, 196 00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:51,630 thinking about when you know that you're going to start out somewhere, you know, and this is it, you then the way you do things changes, right? 197 00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:58,590 I was constantly trying to kind of but networks build collectives have a vision for five years, ten years, 15 years. 198 00:19:59,010 --> 00:20:02,610 And those are things that I didn't have before. So I felt grown up. 199 00:20:03,690 --> 00:20:07,530 And what support did you feel you had or needed when you were there? 200 00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:13,110 So I had my family support, which was incredible because there were people who are telling me, You, 201 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:22,650 why are you trying to the start-up you could get a great salary working for the UN, working for any of these organisations with your qualifications. 202 00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:25,440 You have just, you have just graduated from Oxford. That's a big deal. 203 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:33,480 You can get any job you wanted and here you are trying to make enough money for the organisation to pay the rent and paid salary of your garden. 204 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:36,750 So it was money. 205 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:44,070 Many people really questioned my choice of joining my friends and doing the start up and they said, right now you have just graduated, 206 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:51,030 you have college loans to pay, which I did from Smith and great financial needs and you are my area and the spot. 207 00:20:51,030 --> 00:20:55,620 But the support that I had was from my family and also mentors who felt like if 208 00:20:55,620 --> 00:21:00,300 you think this is this is where you would grow the most and this is the most. 209 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:09,630 And although I had been, I had been working with different organisations, but this would be sort of my end stage, the professional society. 210 00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:19,129 In a more committed manner. And and in terms of constructing my image for myself as someone who is independently creating 211 00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:23,840 their own space with friends rather than being associated with you and or another organisation. 212 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,370 Not being sure about if I agree with all of their work. 213 00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:38,060 So I think that helped that I had my family and my mentors support me in this decision, which wasn't which wasn't the most straightforward. 214 00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:45,540 Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, even at that point, people were telling you you could very easily work for the UN. 215 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,100 Would you ask me to as a pivot point because you did eventually work for the UN? 216 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:54,680 Yeah. And how can you talk me through that, that moment and how that came about? 217 00:21:54,980 --> 00:22:00,500 So I ended up working for the for the for the Human Rights Commission, Independent Human Rights Commission. 218 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:11,490 And I think it was a. Initially, like when if you had asked me in 2011, 2000, 12,000, 13, even 14. 219 00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:21,819 Maybe I don't I don't think about being part of institution, leading some institution or working for it because I was at that time, 220 00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:27,910 I was really focussed on trying to expand my knowledge of Afghanistan, 221 00:22:28,810 --> 00:22:34,959 the work that will allow me to travel, to work, that will allow give me a lot of flexibility that I'm not held by a lot of organisation, 222 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,560 organisational norms and security norms, e.t.c. 223 00:22:40,510 --> 00:22:48,460 But then as I do, as I continue to develop my work, I realised that the Commission as a state institution is so. 224 00:22:50,350 --> 00:22:54,070 It can do so much. I could see so much potential in this organisation. 225 00:22:54,580 --> 00:23:00,970 And I, I felt like the potential was not being maximised and I felt like I had ideas for how to. 226 00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:03,010 How to do more. 227 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:11,290 What would the organisation if I had a good team of colleagues, I thought that I could do more and I could I could make the organisation go further. 228 00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:14,770 Also, of course by the time I came to the commission in 2019, 229 00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:22,690 I had at this point had worked in private sector, had worked with the government, had also tried to. 230 00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:28,770 Try to establish a political movement and failed. So we had. 231 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:35,009 We had. But you mean you failed? In what way? Well, we started up a youth movement, a youth political movement, 232 00:23:35,010 --> 00:23:44,040 and it became really prominent in terms of the attention that it drew from both Afghans and international community. 233 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,620 And I was the first elected chairperson for that movement that was called Afghanistan 1400. 234 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,320 And then there are two other chairpersons after me. But slowly, slowly, 235 00:23:56,940 --> 00:24:01,649 it's sort of whether the way it was all voluntary and we were a group of young people 236 00:24:01,650 --> 00:24:05,040 who are really interested in changing the way politics was done in our country. 237 00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:12,989 But with different elections, we really could not agree on how to move forward with the movement. 238 00:24:12,990 --> 00:24:20,309 Some of us wanted to engage into politics directly by campaigning for one of the candidates, by really getting our hands dirty. 239 00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:26,010 And some of us felt like, no, our focus should be on movement, building on expanding our constituencies. 240 00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:35,340 And some of us thought we could do both. So these differences in a very volatile political environment meant that people left. 241 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:45,780 Slowly, people lost interest. And so we failed. And, you know, and a few years into our our work, our activity, we were no longer having any impact. 242 00:24:45,780 --> 00:24:49,950 We were no longer the strong collective that we had been at the beginning. 243 00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:54,420 And so having been through that experience and having been through the experience 244 00:24:54,420 --> 00:24:57,540 of working in private sector and knowing that I'm really not good at business, 245 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:04,499 I felt like, okay, this, this might be the next step, but it was a big job. 246 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:12,239 I mean, leading that. Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission is an organisation with 400 staff across Afghanistan, 14 officers. 247 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,260 It was the biggest job that I had had to date. 248 00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:22,709 I was part of a group of leadership nine commissioners, men and women, five men and four woman. 249 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:27,390 And I was the youngest and and it was one of them. 250 00:25:27,540 --> 00:25:33,419 And my life in the field of human rights, that was the kind of in the state sector that was the highest job. 251 00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:38,310 Right. So I also thought about if I do this now, what am I going to do with them when I'm older? 252 00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:43,830 I certainly thought about it, but also I didn't feel like. 253 00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:53,440 We had a lot of time and everything was moving so quickly with the, you know, the peace process and the likelihood of Taliban's return to power. 254 00:25:54,820 --> 00:26:00,580 So, yeah, I ended up taking the job after going through a long process of selection and interviews and all of that. 255 00:26:00,580 --> 00:26:05,470 And and I think it's really, really challenged me. 256 00:26:06,790 --> 00:26:12,969 And I think I'm also interested in how you balance that with your kind of personal and family life over time. 257 00:26:12,970 --> 00:26:16,840 Because I know I think at the time of the appointment, you had a very young son. 258 00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:19,930 Yes. How how was that? How did you balance those? 259 00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:23,980 I don't know if I balanced it. How did you know about. 260 00:26:25,030 --> 00:26:32,350 Because I had a two month old when I am when I was introduced to as the chair. 261 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:41,410 I no formal introduction happened. And I remember in my formal introduction, I cried quite a bit for my introductory speech. 262 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,440 And so I ended up really relying fully on the support of my family to take care of my son. 263 00:26:47,650 --> 00:26:53,170 And most of the time that I would spend more time would be in the evenings or weekends. 264 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,660 Also, because of the profile of my job and the targeting of human rights activists at the time. 265 00:27:00,370 --> 00:27:05,200 I wouldn't I would really minimise my public exposure with my child. 266 00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:09,120 So basically, I would just spend time with him at home. I wouldn't take him to a park. 267 00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:15,340 I would ask others to take him to a park or to take him outside so that people don't associate head space with me. 268 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:23,140 And it's hard. It was yeah, it was a strange life now that I think about it, that it seemed almost normal then. 269 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:30,280 But these were provided the choices that you are making, right? Without knowing when you are living in an environment of fear constantly. 270 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:35,170 I mean, one of my biggest fears every day was my son being kidnapped. 271 00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:39,670 Like I lived with that fear every day because of my work. 272 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,780 And so I had to I had to limit his exposure with me. 273 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:53,500 And it was it was hard because I tried. I kept thinking about it's about the quality and it is really about the quality to be present with him. 274 00:27:53,710 --> 00:27:59,170 And I was present, but of course I brought all this anxiety and stress with me from work as well. 275 00:27:59,170 --> 00:28:03,550 So I tried really to surround him with other caretakers, my mom, you know, 276 00:28:03,970 --> 00:28:11,590 other members of family who are who had much more room for joy in their lives so that he can he could see that. 277 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:14,200 He could experience that. He could see that and people around him. 278 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:21,550 Because often when I came home, no matter how hard I tried, I would bring a lot of anxiety and a lot of grief with me. 279 00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:30,999 And I believe children sensed that. So in terms of feeling like it was a balanced life, it didn't feel like a balanced life. 280 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,990 I was I was extremely consumed by my work. 281 00:28:35,410 --> 00:28:42,010 And and even then it felt insufficient because that two years that I was on that job, we lost three colleagues to violence. 282 00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:49,420 So when people were losing their lives for the work that I think anything that I do could feel would feel insufficient, of course. 283 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:54,700 And. So in that sense. 284 00:28:55,780 --> 00:29:04,510 It was out of balance, but it seemed like that was okay because of what was going on in that country at that moment in time. 285 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,190 Yeah. So just going back to the role as chair, you mentioned you're the youngest person. 286 00:29:09,390 --> 00:29:13,030 Yeah. How did you how did you establish your authority? 287 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,950 Yeah, it was really it was a struggle. That was my first struggle. 288 00:29:18,010 --> 00:29:20,800 So when I one of my first struggles. Let's see. 289 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:31,140 So because when I when I got to the job, I quickly realised we have, we are in deep financial trouble, the institutions in deep financial trouble. 290 00:29:31,150 --> 00:29:37,720 So I had to start a round of engagement with donors and I had just I was this new kid on the block just that after this institution. 291 00:29:38,350 --> 00:29:45,880 And so I had to convince them that I could lead this [INAUDIBLE] and I had to convince my colleagues that I had to lead this institution. 292 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,590 And the journey to getting my colleagues support was not a straightforward one. 293 00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:57,879 It wasn't like, you know, two months and they fully believe believed make up, you know, capacity to lead. 294 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,570 And then from then on, we were a great team that worked together on everything. 295 00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:07,300 It wasn't like that. It was up and down because also the outside context was so volatile. 296 00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:11,770 Everyone was feeling a lot of external pressure, a lot of emotional anxiety. 297 00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:14,470 And of course, we all brought that to work and then. 298 00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:22,820 When things were so tense, people looked at me and thought, why she shouldn't be doing better yet maybe she's not doing better. 299 00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:32,690 So there were moments like that, certainly, that I felt that my authority is being questioned because of issues outside my control. 300 00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:39,259 But also I didn't I wouldn't claim people blame people who did that because because everyone was under so much pressure. 301 00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:42,829 I mean, we lost three colleagues. COVID happened. 302 00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:47,420 So we had people had to work from home. We had the financial challenges which we overcome. 303 00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:49,759 Thankfully, there was a peace process. 304 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:56,419 Everyone didn't know what kind of Afghanistan they will be living on in a few months, you know, and in all of those ends, 305 00:30:56,420 --> 00:31:02,299 it is had impacted how people what people expected and this feeling of helplessness and wanting more protection, 306 00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:07,340 more wanting more safety, but not having that, really. But I think. 307 00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:11,430 What? What helped was that? 308 00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:16,710 I try to always remind all of us that we are in it together, that I don't have the answers. 309 00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:22,620 You know, I. You guys have the answers, I can help us all make choices. 310 00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:26,580 But for instance, I'll give you a small example. 311 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,810 They would come and a colleague would come and tell me, you know, then it's done. 312 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:33,410 You. We have no idea what's going on in one of the provinces. 313 00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:37,310 And there's fighting, let's say, and I would say thank you for bringing this to me. 314 00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:41,420 What are two or three things that you think we can do about that? 315 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,440 And then I can help you make a decision. 316 00:31:45,860 --> 00:31:51,980 So moving this from this culture of bringing the problems to leadership. 317 00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:55,820 I try to encourage my colleagues to come with solutions. 318 00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:59,700 All of you have the solutions. It's not just me. I don't have a lot of the solutions. 319 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,720 You are an expert in the field that you're at. You're an 80%. 320 00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:06,750 You know what what possibilities exist. You are working at media. 321 00:32:06,770 --> 00:32:11,930 You know what? You know what options are there? You have worked with the Attorney-General's office for so many years. 322 00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:16,160 You know who might be an ally idea and kind of going back to their knowledge, 323 00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:24,860 did expertise which made them feel seen and feel motivated because they felt like, Oh, okay, my job is not just doing things I. 324 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,459 It's also proposing solutions, finding ways forward. We are all in this together. 325 00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:33,880 We can all do this together and it takes a mental adjustment. 326 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:42,990 It took a while, but it really I saw how it really increased productivity, increased trust in what's led leaders are afraid of. 327 00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:46,559 I think sometimes in these traditional societies like mine is saying, 328 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:53,550 I don't know because they think that makes them we make them look weak or come across as incompetent. 329 00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:56,940 I don't view about that. I would say I don't know the solution to this. 330 00:32:57,060 --> 00:33:02,580 They think we can figure it out together. And in fact, yeah, maybe initially they thought, oh, why doesn't she know? 331 00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:10,230 She's supposed to know. But by giving them back that part, why they just felt so much more invested in the work that they were doing. 332 00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:16,920 And then they felt like they solved the problem, which they did. And that made them feel like, okay, everything is going. 333 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:23,080 Mad outside, but at least I fixed something, I corrected something, I improved something. 334 00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:32,740 And that's really, really, I think was something that that helped with the authority and question with improving that relationship of trust. 335 00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:40,120 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very good advice. I'm also really interested in something that you mentioned to me once about this moment 336 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:46,480 where you kind of realised how responsibly step up and when to responsibly step down. 337 00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:51,340 Yeah. So can you talk me through the moment of when you stepped down from your role as chair of the commission? 338 00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:58,090 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, following August 15, 2021, I thought about stepping down every day. 339 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:03,550 I was so restless to step down because I felt by being outside Afghanistan, 340 00:34:03,550 --> 00:34:10,630 I have no known legitimacy to represent an organisation that is inside Afghanistan. 341 00:34:10,660 --> 00:34:19,000 Its mandate is to work inside Afghanistan. I also felt very torn because I wanted to continue to bring light to the situation 342 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,899 in Afghanistan and I was receiving these invitations to speak in these panels. 343 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:28,150 I had these opportunities to talk to Human Rights Council, other platforms, really important platforms, 344 00:34:28,570 --> 00:34:33,880 and I wanted to utilise these opportunities to speak about what's going on in Afghanistan because I knew I had information. 345 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:40,560 But by speaking about these things, while I had colleagues who are still in Afghanistan, I would be putting them at risk. 346 00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:42,600 So I worried about this as well. So I was torn. 347 00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:50,250 You know, if I don't speak up, if I don't take this opportunity to speak up, then it's a disservice to the human rights situation in Afghanistan. 348 00:34:50,260 --> 00:34:54,100 If I do speak up, I might put my colleagues at risk by affiliation. 349 00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:58,270 So what do I do? So I was restless. But then mentors and friends. 350 00:34:58,270 --> 00:35:05,419 Very. Patiently, I think very patiently because I wasn't in the best state of mind as well. 351 00:35:05,420 --> 00:35:09,320 With my own grief and trauma and anger and heartbreak following what happened. 352 00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:14,660 Afghanistan reminded me that I have a duty of care towards my colleagues, that I have to care, 353 00:35:14,810 --> 00:35:21,080 and that duty of care remains and requires me to preserve that title for a period of time, 354 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:28,459 because that title of chair opens doors in a way that not having that title, I would not be able to access the same resources. 355 00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:37,310 And what these resources getting encouraging countries to take on a few of our colleagues as as refugees and encouraging 356 00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:43,430 them to pay salaries to our colleagues because our bank accounts had become accessible following the fall of Kabul, 357 00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:50,390 encouraging them to continue to think about ways to help the commission and put political pressure on Taliban. 358 00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:54,290 So the commission is not abolished. But I had to put a timeline. 359 00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:58,520 I told my colleagues, I said this work could go on for many years. 360 00:35:59,060 --> 00:36:06,350 I have to know at one point where I can step down without feeling guilt about stepping down. 361 00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:14,330 But if I continue doing this just attending to duty of care, I will also feel immense guilt because I am holding this title, 362 00:36:14,690 --> 00:36:19,460 but I am not carrying out my actual mandate, which is work for human rights of all Afghans. 363 00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:27,410 So, so there has to be a timeline. So I sort of negotiated that timeline with myself and with my kind of mentors and close friends, 364 00:36:27,740 --> 00:36:32,000 something that made sense, not in terms of time, some things in terms of, okay, 365 00:36:32,060 --> 00:36:41,420 do we have enough resources and structures in place that some of this duty of care can continue after I'm gone and once that such once 366 00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:49,250 those structures were in place and currently there are colleagues working on trying to get visas and resettlement for for our colleagues. 367 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,930 So once those structures were in place, then I felt comfortable to step away. 368 00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:59,980 And of course, the decision was. I mean, my colleagues in the leadership are still unhappy about the decision that I made. 369 00:37:00,580 --> 00:37:06,549 But and it wasn't an easy decision. But but I feel very at ease now. 370 00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:09,790 I feel at peace. I'm at peace with it. 371 00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:17,880 Yeah. So since then you've moved back to Oxford and your family has grown a little bit again. 372 00:37:19,020 --> 00:37:27,520 How has that adjustment been for you coming back here? Since we left Kabul on 15th August, I think. 373 00:37:30,570 --> 00:37:38,870 If we if I can speak about. You know, it's really hard to speak about good things in a way, good things that have happened to us. 374 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:42,350 But they have. You know, I have I have a second child. 375 00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:46,310 That's that's a blessing. That's something that brought us so much joy. 376 00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:52,520 But because of everything that's going on in Afghanistan, I even feel guilty talking about joy, which stage. 377 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,290 But I do think one of one of the good things that happened to us is to be back here. 378 00:37:57,350 --> 00:38:00,630 Really? It's. It just. 379 00:38:03,590 --> 00:38:13,400 I feel a bit more subtle now and a lot of the space in my mind that was consumed with a lot of just logistics of things that has opened up. 380 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:21,140 And I have more space to think about my work and how to make our work more impactful for Afghanistan. 381 00:38:21,770 --> 00:38:24,890 And also to think through and come to. 382 00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:32,249 You know, kind of think strategically about the work that we're doing, 383 00:38:32,250 --> 00:38:36,510 not just continue doing the same advocacy, but have some space to think strategically. 384 00:38:36,510 --> 00:38:43,200 And that's possible here as well, because there is such a community of people here who have thought these issues through in different contexts, 385 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,799 and they're such a source of inspiration, but also guidance and information. 386 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:53,250 I mean, I'll lead in my conversation with them or with Nikita, who is my academic mentor here. 387 00:38:53,640 --> 00:39:01,980 I have gotten so much out of those conversations in terms of helping me think more strategically about issues not not just day to day. 388 00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:12,610 And I think. That's something that's. This is the perfect place for because the whole vibe is about reflection and learning and then contributing. 389 00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:17,630 And my hope here for the next, we'll be here for two years. 390 00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:27,560 My hope here is that, first of all, that I can make myself useful somehow, Wilson as well, but also that I will start strengthening a collective, 391 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:34,460 a collective of people who think about these issues that I am connected to and that I can learn from. 392 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:39,210 And this is a very good place for that. And you're setting up an organisation, don't you? 393 00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:41,959 Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yes, absolutely. 394 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:48,890 So since since again, August 15th, there has been a lot of questioning about how can human rights work on Afghanistan? 395 00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:53,210 Go on, can it or not? And I have gone back and forth. 396 00:39:53,390 --> 00:39:56,629 Initially, I thought, I actually don't want to work on Afghanistan. 397 00:39:56,630 --> 00:40:01,670 It's too painful. And since I'm outside the country, I have no legitimacy to do this work. 398 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:12,390 And then kept thinking about how being outside and being safe, physically safe, at least is, is is something that so many people, 399 00:40:12,530 --> 00:40:18,319 especially the woman who get up every day in protest and this is Taliban day, they don't have that luxury. 400 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:26,000 And I do. So what can I do? The luxury that I have and really starting from there and thinking about what's possible. 401 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:33,379 We have been brainstorming a lot. We have now we have some now some concrete ideas about what the organisation can look like. 402 00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:38,450 We have a name we have, we are working on a website, all of that. 403 00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:45,800 But the work that we will be doing, it's we will be a small human rights organisation, focussed on monitoring violations, 404 00:40:46,460 --> 00:40:53,450 pursuing accountability, mainly because the justice system in Afghanistan is so ineffective right now, 405 00:40:53,780 --> 00:40:58,219 it has to either be international justice mechanisms are victim centred justice, 406 00:40:58,220 --> 00:41:07,100 which is more about narrating the stories of victims and survivors and kind of preserving their truth and movements, 407 00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,590 but I think are contributing to movement. But I think so. 408 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:17,210 This is an area where I hope I can learn a lot from others in Oxford, especially from people who have looked at social movements closely. 409 00:41:17,570 --> 00:41:23,000 The idea is that although we have lost the institutions that we had and we have lost the laws that we had, 410 00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:28,540 and the future for rights in Afghanistan seems really grim and difficult. 411 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,240 This is not a moment of rest or this is not a moment of retreat. 412 00:41:32,420 --> 00:41:40,220 This is a moment to build a stronger community, to strengthen our community for rights both inside and outside the country. 413 00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:44,960 And what's the role that we can have as diaspora in that process? 414 00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:49,790 So it sounds like you have a lot to do in the next couple of years. 415 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,760 I always end up committing to more. More than that. Yeah, I got the classic problem. 416 00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:59,750 Well, I wish you the best of luck with it. It's very inspiring to hear what you're working on. 417 00:42:00,070 --> 00:42:03,680 Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on Piper Point. Thank you for this conversation.