Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives.
I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wilson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
I was thrilled this month to get another chance to speak with Wolfson alumnus Shaharzad Akbar,
who was the first woman from Afghanistan to study at Oxford.
We spoke earlier this year for an interview and plans and prospects, and she's since moved back to Oxford over the summer.
Shaharzad has worked across public and private sectors or in organisations with a variety of different humanitarian missions,
but with one thing in common, which is Afghanistan, her home country.
So I started by asking her if that central theme of her work was prevalent, even in her earliest academic experiences, too.
I felt very strongly about. My education, helping me serve in Afghanistan.
And I think that became much more pronounced when once I was outside Afghanistan.
So in 2006, I ended up going to Smith College in Northampton, yes, Northampton, Massachusetts, in the US and being away from home.
Every class that I was taking, I was thinking, how does this teach me skills and brings me insights that can help me with being
an active member of the community of the society back home in Afghanistan.
So I studied anthropology, but I tried to kind of learn about West while I was there,
particularly the youth, because of USA's very strong presence in Afghanistan,
but also the broader region about Islam, as there's a very prominent, you know, factor of our lives in Afghanistan.
And so that was always part of my, you know, my thinking and.
SMITH And then later in Oxford as well, when I decided to study development studies,
I thought that studying this particular and this particular department could help me have a critical approach to what was going on in
Afghanistan and hopefully be helpful in those conversations about how the country should move forward and how how we should prioritise,
how we should tackle poverty. So I think staying connected to Afghanistan was very important to me.
And other than, you know, some people have talents and they know that since they're very young, they are good in music or sports.
For me, it was never like that. It was more about.
So I had to say a little bit about what do I study when I went to Smith, for instance?
And then I thought, maybe this is the way in which I can make myself more useful back home.
And so that also impacted the decisions that I made about my work and how to, you know, the whole trajectory of my work.
It wasn't so much about I want to stay in this one field and become an expert in it.
It was more about this is where I think I can be more useful with the skills that I have and stay more connected.
Hmm. And how did you find it culturally when you first moved to the U.S.?
I mean, it was a huge shift, of course, because I had been on short trips the West to Germany actually, in fact, only.
And I had we had lived in Pakistan as refugees.
I had been on short trips to India and Nepal and countries in the region,
but had never been to the U.S. And my parents had, of course, never left the West as well.
So it was. It was a little hard for them to offer me any guidance on what this might look like.
I had worked with Americans. I knew American you know, American journalists who are working in Afghanistan,
aid workers, but just arriving in the U.S. and then going to Smith College.
It was a it was a big transition, really a big transition, because I think I first I mean, you start noticing the differences,
even small differences become so big and pronounced, you know, from the differences in architecture.
I remember writing home about the fact that the doors were very heavy.
So it's like a minor thing, but to to food, to the way people interact and the way families organise themselves, everything was very different.
I had read a lot of American literature before I arrived in the US, but living inside that culture was certainly.
Disorienting, I would say initially, very disorienting. This was the first time you're away from your own family as well.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I have it's now that I'm raising my own children, I noticed this.
You know, we we put them in their own bedrooms since they're very little.
But now we I was raised in Afghanistan. I mean, you are in the same room with your siblings or even your parents still.
You're much older. You share everything. You know, you have a much closer relationship in the family.
People stay with their families till they are married. So for me, it was a very big thing that I was.
You know,
it's travelling across oceans and going to have completely different timezone being so far away from my parents and my siblings and my and my family.
It was really hard. I missed them every day. I missed Afghanistan every day.
And I think I found that community first and foremost and the International International Students Organisation on campus.
It felt like we share some of our struggles because we are all away from home and you know, the differences in food and culture,
but also issues because I felt like me and several of my friends in the International
Business Organisation because we had come on financial aid or some forms of scholarships,
are not the economic concerns or so much more pronounced for us in our daily lives.
Like we weren't sure if we could make it back home, if we could get the money to buy a ticket to go back home for summer.
But also we didn't know what to do if we didn't go because we couldn't afford to be in the U.S. for salmon.
So these things consumed a lot of our, you know, brain, which wasn't the case for our American classmates and peers for most of them.
But also being exposed to I mean. I think racism in the US just trying to figure out how what that is and what's the response to that.
What was your experience of that? Personally, I think it was very it was a very interesting time to be an African in the U.S.
Right. This was in 2006.
I felt like many Americans, very even well-educated Americans, knew very little about what was their country doing in Afghanistan.
They also knew very little about what's going on with Afghanistan, Afghan women's situation.
There was also not a very kind perception of Muslim woman, Muslim people, Muslims in general.
So I remember when, you know, shootings would happen in the U.S., unfortunately, and this is common,
we would always pray that a muslim is not involved because we worried about backlash to
ourselves and to the extended Muslim community and the U.S. It wasn't a very post-9-11.
It wasn't a very friendly environment. I don't have many, you know, racist interactions against me per se.
We were in a college community, five sheltered, very protected.
But there were very there were strange questions, people that that clearly showed that people had these perceptions about, you know, Afghanistan.
They they found it hard to believe that I had read the literature that I had read, that they had had access to books.
And, you know, my parents really invested in me being well read, relatively.
And, you know, that my father wouldn't my parents weren't trying to marry me off or force me or things like that.
There was all of these concerns about if I go back home, might look like my parents sold me.
And I was like, this is all the way to the U.S. society. I don't think so.
Don't worry. It's going to be fine. There are other things to say about.
So there was all of that, all of those elements going on and, you know,
kind of people misunderstanding what happened in 911 if Afghans were directly involved.
And we always had to say, no, it wasn't, you know, it was actually people from other places.
But also it's more complicated than that. So there was that.
But also, I think the racism. Against African Americans as well.
And the racism that I saw my friends who are black who are experiencing.
And it was just I really had I had read about it, but I really hadn't expected it to be so structural and.
And racism is a huge it's a huge issue in the U.S., right.
You can skip it. You can't miss it.
And it was just really shocking to me, I think, because you think about developed countries and you think about what development means.
I mean, they had nice stores, great infrastructure, electricity all the time,
but so many issues that they were grappling with homelessness, racism, of course, sexism.
So I think in that sense, you know, you do have this coming from a from a very poor country.
You do have this somewhat rosy, misguided, and especially when you're young.
Of how the West works and what development means.
And then you come into these societies and you live and you realise that everyone is grappling in a way with different issues.
Yeah, that's a very good point. And that also reminds you something else that you mentioned,
that your time at Smith's College felt like a kind of introduction in next steps in your feminist education.
So what were those next steps and what does a feminist education mean to you?
I mean, in that sense, Smith was really incredible for me because I, I had thought that I knew some things a little bit about feminism.
I had heard I grew up reading the lives of women, biographies of women from across the world because my my father,
my parents were very intentional about as having access to this.
But when I came to Smith Smith, there was an effort all the time to integrate this feminist lens.
And so everything was static.
So if we were if we were talking about labour, we were definitely talking about women's labour as well, women's unpaid labour.
If we were talking about trauma, we were talking about, you know, anything, we were talking about conflict on the syllabus.
There was, there were, there was material written by women and there was material talking about women's experiences.
And that really made a huge difference because there was unconscious attempts.
In in college itself to actually, you know, to remind us that we don't know the histories of women.
We don't know the stories of women, that we underestimate the contribution of women.
To the planets and and a conscious attempt to undo that to some extent.
And, of course, there was also discussion about intersectionality. You know, what about women who are slaves?
What about women who come from, you know, poor working woman?
And all of that really expanded my understanding of what it means to have a feminist lens, what it means to have a feminist education.
It's not just about being in an a women's college and kind of talking about feminism as a as a as a political idea.
It's about really looking at everything from a completely different lens or a from a wider,
more expanded lens, looking at the experiences, looking at the issues.
And that was really helpful for my future work because when I went back to work
in Afghanistan and I was sitting around the table on these discussions about,
you know, what would a budget look like? What would the curriculum look like?
I wasn't just thinking about are women being employed to work on this, is women's expertise being utilised?
But also what's the content of what's being developed and to what extent that reflects the needs and experiences of women?
So I'm really grateful for that. But also I met, I think really for the first time I met powerful women who are our alumni,
who aren't leaders in business or politics would come to Smith.
And we had we had this day where we celebrated our night and they would come and they talk about their work and,
you know, how they got to where they are.
But what was for me somewhat revolutionary was they were not just talking about how they succeeded.
They were also talking about we are they failed in the struggles that they had to balance
their work and the demands of society from them as woman moments when they felt really torn,
moments when they felt really pushed because they had to pick one or the other.
And it was very liberating to hear that it's not just me, you know, that women are taught unfortunately,
societies teach women to doubt themselves from very early on and that,
you know, very strong, very powerful women struggle with this and that the society,
the workplace, the family is not set up to support women, pursue their ambitions.
So there is always a struggle. It's not just your struggle. And I found that really incredibly eye opening.
So you went from Smith's College to Oxford to Wolfson specifically, where you're under a mining lease presidency.
And I know you've mentioned to me before she was very much a role model for you.
And I also think it's lovely that she gives such a glowing review as well.
It sounds like such a positive and kind of nurturing relationship that you two had.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, when I came to Oxford, it was very different than Smith, you'd think.
Okay, English speaking countries, west.
Of course, there are cultural differences that I notice, but also there are cultural differences in terms of the educational system.
I think in Oxford in that sense, in terms of the academic side at work, I struggled much more than and Smith.
I struggled much more. I didn't feel like I could fit in.
So it was harder academically,
but socially I had a very rich life and I think her minded being here really made a huge difference because I felt I felt connected.
I felt seen.
I felt like I was contributing to the college and I just had a living, breathing role model, you know, who was well spending time with us.
And I was very intimidated by her, but also really inspired but inspired by her and just really valued that relationship that we formed.
It was it was a source of inspiration.
It was a source of joy. I think, even because I think here in Oxford, there is I felt more of a distance between the students and the faculty.
Right. It's just a setup is completely different.
People are very as I have said before, my supervisor, for instance, was very supportive.
But it's just a different setup than what we had.
And. Smith And in a context like that, to have a relationship to and to be supported by someone like her, Myeni was leading this institution.
Wolfson College. It also helped my confidence, my, you know, my sense that I'm contributing.
I, I have a voice that can matter. MM.
And you mentioned then and so in 2011 was when you left Oxford and you started working in Afghanistan straight away after you left.
Yeah. So I had start I had worked in Afghanistan every year, every summer break, actually, throughout my studies and Smith as well.
So every year I was I was working and summer I went back. I worked and then I.
Return to my studies and 2010 I went back.
When I went for my summer break, I ended up and for my research, for my thesis, I ended up setting up this consultation,
a consultancy firm with several other friends who had just graduated from Western
universities and had gone back to Kabul and wanted to take the next step in their career.
So when I went back in 2011, I was already going to something that we had started to set up.
It was very initial stages, but then for me, in my mind, that was the end of my journey in the West, in a sense.
At that time I felt like, okay, I'm back and this is my life.
This is the beginning of my journey in academia at that point. Yeah, absolutely.
Was that was that something that crossed your mind? Really?
Was it like I'm leaving academia and now I'm going into the, you know, the kind of industry world?
Is that something that you felt? Absolutely.
Because I also my my supervisor, for instance, really encouraged me to consider doing a dear fellow, putting in application and several other friends.
Partly not because I was great academically, but because they were so light for my safety.
I think the news from Afghanistan coming to everybody was so bad.
There were there was an increase in violence in 2011, the news of, you know, suicide attacks, targeted killings.
And people were like, you're going to get killed.
Let's just just follow that up and go.
And they fell into that and then get killed. But I had thought about that.
I thought about my father also was telling me, maybe you want to pursue education further.
Why not? Now that you're there, you know, think about the. And I just I just felt so restless to be on the ground.
I just felt so restless to try to experiment with some of the things that I had learned.
I felt I had been away from home for so long. I was worried about feeling being disconnected slowly and kind of getting too used to life here.
So I gave it a lot of thoughts, but I thought not this is the time to go.
And and basically, as they say, I hit the ground running because I went and as soon as I arrived,
I already had to work on the start up that we had started up and it took a while.
Yeah.
And so this was one of your pivot point is this feeling of for the first time being fully immersed in your own country as a young professional woman.
How did that feel? It was you know, it was such a difficult time.
But I, I remember feeling so proud in a way,
and also feeling really like I'm where I meant to be and waking up every morning and thinking this is going to be a really hard day,
but I'm glad I meant to be. And that's that's a very special feeling, because when I was in Smith, when I was in Oxford, I did question, you know,
is this where I meant to be when everything is going gone back home, you know, should I be should I be doing more?
Should I be there? You know, I'm not with my parents, with my family.
I'm not helping with their financial struggles. I'm not with my siblings.
I'm not in my country at a time of great change and upheaval and opportunity.
So the feeling that I had was now, you know, this is it.
This is the beginning of the rest of my life. I am I'm here.
I'm trying to contribute. It's really difficult. But I have made my decision and I am where I meant to be.
And in every there was kind of a kind of not having a plan, but like building networks,
thinking about when you know that you're going to start out somewhere, you know, and this is it, you then the way you do things changes, right?
I was constantly trying to kind of but networks build collectives have a vision for five years, ten years, 15 years.
And those are things that I didn't have before. So I felt grown up.
And what support did you feel you had or needed when you were there?
So I had my family support, which was incredible because there were people who are telling me, You,
why are you trying to the start-up you could get a great salary working for the UN, working for any of these organisations with your qualifications.
You have just, you have just graduated from Oxford. That's a big deal.
You can get any job you wanted and here you are trying to make enough money for the organisation to pay the rent and paid salary of your garden.
So it was money.
Many people really questioned my choice of joining my friends and doing the start up and they said, right now you have just graduated,
you have college loans to pay, which I did from Smith and great financial needs and you are my area and the spot.
But the support that I had was from my family and also mentors who felt like if
you think this is this is where you would grow the most and this is the most.
And although I had been, I had been working with different organisations, but this would be sort of my end stage, the professional society.
In a more committed manner. And and in terms of constructing my image for myself as someone who is independently creating
their own space with friends rather than being associated with you and or another organisation.
Not being sure about if I agree with all of their work.
So I think that helped that I had my family and my mentors support me in this decision, which wasn't which wasn't the most straightforward.
Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, even at that point, people were telling you you could very easily work for the UN.
Would you ask me to as a pivot point because you did eventually work for the UN?
Yeah. And how can you talk me through that, that moment and how that came about?
So I ended up working for the for the for the Human Rights Commission, Independent Human Rights Commission.
And I think it was a. Initially, like when if you had asked me in 2011, 2000, 12,000, 13, even 14.
Maybe I don't I don't think about being part of institution, leading some institution or working for it because I was at that time,
I was really focussed on trying to expand my knowledge of Afghanistan,
the work that will allow me to travel, to work, that will allow give me a lot of flexibility that I'm not held by a lot of organisation,
organisational norms and security norms, e.t.c.
But then as I do, as I continue to develop my work, I realised that the Commission as a state institution is so.
It can do so much. I could see so much potential in this organisation.
And I, I felt like the potential was not being maximised and I felt like I had ideas for how to.
How to do more.
What would the organisation if I had a good team of colleagues, I thought that I could do more and I could I could make the organisation go further.
Also, of course by the time I came to the commission in 2019,
I had at this point had worked in private sector, had worked with the government, had also tried to.
Try to establish a political movement and failed. So we had.
We had. But you mean you failed? In what way? Well, we started up a youth movement, a youth political movement,
and it became really prominent in terms of the attention that it drew from both Afghans and international community.
And I was the first elected chairperson for that movement that was called Afghanistan 1400.
And then there are two other chairpersons after me. But slowly, slowly,
it's sort of whether the way it was all voluntary and we were a group of young people
who are really interested in changing the way politics was done in our country.
But with different elections, we really could not agree on how to move forward with the movement.
Some of us wanted to engage into politics directly by campaigning for one of the candidates, by really getting our hands dirty.
And some of us felt like, no, our focus should be on movement, building on expanding our constituencies.
And some of us thought we could do both. So these differences in a very volatile political environment meant that people left.
Slowly, people lost interest. And so we failed. And, you know, and a few years into our our work, our activity, we were no longer having any impact.
We were no longer the strong collective that we had been at the beginning.
And so having been through that experience and having been through the experience
of working in private sector and knowing that I'm really not good at business,
I felt like, okay, this, this might be the next step, but it was a big job.
I mean, leading that. Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission is an organisation with 400 staff across Afghanistan, 14 officers.
It was the biggest job that I had had to date.
I was part of a group of leadership nine commissioners, men and women, five men and four woman.
And I was the youngest and and it was one of them.
And my life in the field of human rights, that was the kind of in the state sector that was the highest job.
Right. So I also thought about if I do this now, what am I going to do with them when I'm older?
I certainly thought about it, but also I didn't feel like.
We had a lot of time and everything was moving so quickly with the, you know, the peace process and the likelihood of Taliban's return to power.
So, yeah, I ended up taking the job after going through a long process of selection and interviews and all of that.
And and I think it's really, really challenged me.
And I think I'm also interested in how you balance that with your kind of personal and family life over time.
Because I know I think at the time of the appointment, you had a very young son.
Yes. How how was that? How did you balance those?
I don't know if I balanced it. How did you know about.
Because I had a two month old when I am when I was introduced to as the chair.
I no formal introduction happened. And I remember in my formal introduction, I cried quite a bit for my introductory speech.
And so I ended up really relying fully on the support of my family to take care of my son.
And most of the time that I would spend more time would be in the evenings or weekends.
Also, because of the profile of my job and the targeting of human rights activists at the time.
I wouldn't I would really minimise my public exposure with my child.
So basically, I would just spend time with him at home. I wouldn't take him to a park.
I would ask others to take him to a park or to take him outside so that people don't associate head space with me.
And it's hard. It was yeah, it was a strange life now that I think about it, that it seemed almost normal then.
But these were provided the choices that you are making, right? Without knowing when you are living in an environment of fear constantly.
I mean, one of my biggest fears every day was my son being kidnapped.
Like I lived with that fear every day because of my work.
And so I had to I had to limit his exposure with me.
And it was it was hard because I tried. I kept thinking about it's about the quality and it is really about the quality to be present with him.
And I was present, but of course I brought all this anxiety and stress with me from work as well.
So I tried really to surround him with other caretakers, my mom, you know,
other members of family who are who had much more room for joy in their lives so that he can he could see that.
He could experience that. He could see that and people around him.
Because often when I came home, no matter how hard I tried, I would bring a lot of anxiety and a lot of grief with me.
And I believe children sensed that. So in terms of feeling like it was a balanced life, it didn't feel like a balanced life.
I was I was extremely consumed by my work.
And and even then it felt insufficient because that two years that I was on that job, we lost three colleagues to violence.
So when people were losing their lives for the work that I think anything that I do could feel would feel insufficient, of course.
And. So in that sense.
It was out of balance, but it seemed like that was okay because of what was going on in that country at that moment in time.
Yeah. So just going back to the role as chair, you mentioned you're the youngest person.
Yeah. How did you how did you establish your authority?
Yeah, it was really it was a struggle. That was my first struggle.
So when I one of my first struggles. Let's see.
So because when I when I got to the job, I quickly realised we have, we are in deep financial trouble, the institutions in deep financial trouble.
So I had to start a round of engagement with donors and I had just I was this new kid on the block just that after this institution.
And so I had to convince them that I could lead this [INAUDIBLE] and I had to convince my colleagues that I had to lead this institution.
And the journey to getting my colleagues support was not a straightforward one.
It wasn't like, you know, two months and they fully believe believed make up, you know, capacity to lead.
And then from then on, we were a great team that worked together on everything.
It wasn't like that. It was up and down because also the outside context was so volatile.
Everyone was feeling a lot of external pressure, a lot of emotional anxiety.
And of course, we all brought that to work and then.
When things were so tense, people looked at me and thought, why she shouldn't be doing better yet maybe she's not doing better.
So there were moments like that, certainly, that I felt that my authority is being questioned because of issues outside my control.
But also I didn't I wouldn't claim people blame people who did that because because everyone was under so much pressure.
I mean, we lost three colleagues. COVID happened.
So we had people had to work from home. We had the financial challenges which we overcome.
Thankfully, there was a peace process.
Everyone didn't know what kind of Afghanistan they will be living on in a few months, you know, and in all of those ends,
it is had impacted how people what people expected and this feeling of helplessness and wanting more protection,
more wanting more safety, but not having that, really. But I think.
What? What helped was that?
I try to always remind all of us that we are in it together, that I don't have the answers.
You know, I. You guys have the answers, I can help us all make choices.
But for instance, I'll give you a small example.
They would come and a colleague would come and tell me, you know, then it's done.
You. We have no idea what's going on in one of the provinces.
And there's fighting, let's say, and I would say thank you for bringing this to me.
What are two or three things that you think we can do about that?
And then I can help you make a decision.
So moving this from this culture of bringing the problems to leadership.
I try to encourage my colleagues to come with solutions.
All of you have the solutions. It's not just me. I don't have a lot of the solutions.
You are an expert in the field that you're at. You're an 80%.
You know what what possibilities exist. You are working at media.
You know what? You know what options are there? You have worked with the Attorney-General's office for so many years.
You know who might be an ally idea and kind of going back to their knowledge,
did expertise which made them feel seen and feel motivated because they felt like, Oh, okay, my job is not just doing things I.
It's also proposing solutions, finding ways forward. We are all in this together.
We can all do this together and it takes a mental adjustment.
It took a while, but it really I saw how it really increased productivity, increased trust in what's led leaders are afraid of.
I think sometimes in these traditional societies like mine is saying,
I don't know because they think that makes them we make them look weak or come across as incompetent.
I don't view about that. I would say I don't know the solution to this.
They think we can figure it out together. And in fact, yeah, maybe initially they thought, oh, why doesn't she know?
She's supposed to know. But by giving them back that part, why they just felt so much more invested in the work that they were doing.
And then they felt like they solved the problem, which they did. And that made them feel like, okay, everything is going.
Mad outside, but at least I fixed something, I corrected something, I improved something.
And that's really, really, I think was something that that helped with the authority and question with improving that relationship of trust.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very good advice. I'm also really interested in something that you mentioned to me once about this moment
where you kind of realised how responsibly step up and when to responsibly step down.
Yeah. So can you talk me through the moment of when you stepped down from your role as chair of the commission?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, following August 15, 2021, I thought about stepping down every day.
I was so restless to step down because I felt by being outside Afghanistan,
I have no known legitimacy to represent an organisation that is inside Afghanistan.
Its mandate is to work inside Afghanistan. I also felt very torn because I wanted to continue to bring light to the situation
in Afghanistan and I was receiving these invitations to speak in these panels.
I had these opportunities to talk to Human Rights Council, other platforms, really important platforms,
and I wanted to utilise these opportunities to speak about what's going on in Afghanistan because I knew I had information.
But by speaking about these things, while I had colleagues who are still in Afghanistan, I would be putting them at risk.
So I worried about this as well. So I was torn.
You know, if I don't speak up, if I don't take this opportunity to speak up, then it's a disservice to the human rights situation in Afghanistan.
If I do speak up, I might put my colleagues at risk by affiliation.
So what do I do? So I was restless. But then mentors and friends.
Very. Patiently, I think very patiently because I wasn't in the best state of mind as well.
With my own grief and trauma and anger and heartbreak following what happened.
Afghanistan reminded me that I have a duty of care towards my colleagues, that I have to care,
and that duty of care remains and requires me to preserve that title for a period of time,
because that title of chair opens doors in a way that not having that title, I would not be able to access the same resources.
And what these resources getting encouraging countries to take on a few of our colleagues as as refugees and encouraging
them to pay salaries to our colleagues because our bank accounts had become accessible following the fall of Kabul,
encouraging them to continue to think about ways to help the commission and put political pressure on Taliban.
So the commission is not abolished. But I had to put a timeline.
I told my colleagues, I said this work could go on for many years.
I have to know at one point where I can step down without feeling guilt about stepping down.
But if I continue doing this just attending to duty of care, I will also feel immense guilt because I am holding this title,
but I am not carrying out my actual mandate, which is work for human rights of all Afghans.
So, so there has to be a timeline. So I sort of negotiated that timeline with myself and with my kind of mentors and close friends,
something that made sense, not in terms of time, some things in terms of, okay,
do we have enough resources and structures in place that some of this duty of care can continue after I'm gone and once that such once
those structures were in place and currently there are colleagues working on trying to get visas and resettlement for for our colleagues.
So once those structures were in place, then I felt comfortable to step away.
And of course, the decision was. I mean, my colleagues in the leadership are still unhappy about the decision that I made.
But and it wasn't an easy decision. But but I feel very at ease now.
I feel at peace. I'm at peace with it.
Yeah. So since then you've moved back to Oxford and your family has grown a little bit again.
How has that adjustment been for you coming back here? Since we left Kabul on 15th August, I think.
If we if I can speak about. You know, it's really hard to speak about good things in a way, good things that have happened to us.
But they have. You know, I have I have a second child.
That's that's a blessing. That's something that brought us so much joy.
But because of everything that's going on in Afghanistan, I even feel guilty talking about joy, which stage.
But I do think one of one of the good things that happened to us is to be back here.
Really? It's. It just.
I feel a bit more subtle now and a lot of the space in my mind that was consumed with a lot of just logistics of things that has opened up.
And I have more space to think about my work and how to make our work more impactful for Afghanistan.
And also to think through and come to.
You know, kind of think strategically about the work that we're doing,
not just continue doing the same advocacy, but have some space to think strategically.
And that's possible here as well, because there is such a community of people here who have thought these issues through in different contexts,
and they're such a source of inspiration, but also guidance and information.
I mean, I'll lead in my conversation with them or with Nikita, who is my academic mentor here.
I have gotten so much out of those conversations in terms of helping me think more strategically about issues not not just day to day.
And I think. That's something that's. This is the perfect place for because the whole vibe is about reflection and learning and then contributing.
And my hope here for the next, we'll be here for two years.
My hope here is that, first of all, that I can make myself useful somehow, Wilson as well, but also that I will start strengthening a collective,
a collective of people who think about these issues that I am connected to and that I can learn from.
And this is a very good place for that. And you're setting up an organisation, don't you?
Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yes, absolutely.
So since since again, August 15th, there has been a lot of questioning about how can human rights work on Afghanistan?
Go on, can it or not? And I have gone back and forth.
Initially, I thought, I actually don't want to work on Afghanistan.
It's too painful. And since I'm outside the country, I have no legitimacy to do this work.
And then kept thinking about how being outside and being safe, physically safe, at least is, is is something that so many people,
especially the woman who get up every day in protest and this is Taliban day, they don't have that luxury.
And I do. So what can I do? The luxury that I have and really starting from there and thinking about what's possible.
We have been brainstorming a lot. We have now we have some now some concrete ideas about what the organisation can look like.
We have a name we have, we are working on a website, all of that.
But the work that we will be doing, it's we will be a small human rights organisation, focussed on monitoring violations,
pursuing accountability, mainly because the justice system in Afghanistan is so ineffective right now,
it has to either be international justice mechanisms are victim centred justice,
which is more about narrating the stories of victims and survivors and kind of preserving their truth and movements,
but I think are contributing to movement. But I think so.
This is an area where I hope I can learn a lot from others in Oxford, especially from people who have looked at social movements closely.
The idea is that although we have lost the institutions that we had and we have lost the laws that we had,
and the future for rights in Afghanistan seems really grim and difficult.
This is not a moment of rest or this is not a moment of retreat.
This is a moment to build a stronger community, to strengthen our community for rights both inside and outside the country.
And what's the role that we can have as diaspora in that process?
So it sounds like you have a lot to do in the next couple of years.
I always end up committing to more. More than that. Yeah, I got the classic problem.
Well, I wish you the best of luck with it. It's very inspiring to hear what you're working on.
Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on Piper Point. Thank you for this conversation.