1 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:20,900 Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives. 2 00:00:21,290 --> 00:00:28,190 I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wolfson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast. 3 00:00:31,470 --> 00:00:37,890 This month's episode is a conversation with Kutcher Kovalchuk, an energetic scholar studying Byzantine legends. 4 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:44,970 Cartier has moved countries countless times, most recently joining us here in Oxford from Ukraine as an at risk scholar. 5 00:00:45,810 --> 00:00:47,930 She first studied abroad in Budapest. 6 00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:53,100 So we kick off our conversation talking about her first experience of living and studying in a different country. 7 00:00:57,220 --> 00:01:07,010 Yeah. It was, like quite a long time ago. I'm not going to guess, you know, but it was like still very much post-Soviet Ukraine, you know, 8 00:01:07,060 --> 00:01:12,630 and it was like really exceptional that people could go to study abroad, you know, 9 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:16,299 now it's quite common, you know, and basically who are the ones you know? 10 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:21,340 And even if you sort of don't have money, you know, like you always can apply for some scholarships or something. 11 00:01:21,340 --> 00:01:33,070 But at that time it was exceptional. So I got accepted to the Master in Medical Studies program in Budapest and the other Central European University, 12 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:43,089 and basically coming from the background of classics and moving to a new area and also moving to a different country. 13 00:01:43,090 --> 00:01:46,450 And of course, like the everything was so different. 14 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,259 But I do want to move to a new area. 15 00:01:50,260 --> 00:01:55,989 So, you know, like I finished my class, it was diploma, it was five years. 16 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:59,229 So we didn't have like better than most at that time, you know. 17 00:01:59,230 --> 00:02:07,540 So I wanted to do like what we call it's kind of equivalent of, you know, but it's called differently, you know, like in Ukraine. 18 00:02:07,630 --> 00:02:15,310 Yeah. So I wanted to do that, you know, and I actually I did see myself just like sitting in these books, you know, in the research, you know. 19 00:02:15,310 --> 00:02:19,060 So that was kind of my vision of my life. Yeah. 20 00:02:19,570 --> 00:02:24,879 Anyway, so I applied that I was accepted for a program like the pizza program in Ukraine. 21 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:31,690 But then I came across a brochure in one of the libraries about this Central European University, 22 00:02:31,690 --> 00:02:38,530 and I just flicked through the pages and I saw their program in medieval studies and my heart started pumping, 23 00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:43,020 you know, and I was like, I melted, you know? And just, like, reading about it. 24 00:02:43,060 --> 00:02:47,920 Yeah, yeah. You know, and I just, you know, like, that's something that I really want to do, you know? 25 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:57,459 And, you know, like some things, I mean, like in different people, people are like, people take decisions in different ways, you know? 26 00:02:57,460 --> 00:03:06,220 But for me, as some of the best decisions that I happen to make, like the kinds of directions from different sources, 27 00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:12,790 you know, so I guess confirmed from another source, you know, another say I'm just like, Yeah, that must be something for me. 28 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:18,370 And there was like an older professor in a Lviv while I was basically living at 29 00:03:18,370 --> 00:03:24,579 that time at the university that although I'm not from there and he was blind 30 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:28,809 and I was helping him like to do some commentary on the Vita Karoly Magni He 31 00:03:28,810 --> 00:03:33,310 was like making a translation of this medieval western carolingian source, 32 00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:38,889 like writing text into Ukrainian and his wife helped him. 33 00:03:38,890 --> 00:03:45,310 And of course, like because he was very advanced in years, as you would say, and also blind. 34 00:03:45,550 --> 00:03:52,270 So he needed help. So I was helping him and he got like the this in Budapest, you know, this is in Vive. 35 00:03:52,270 --> 00:03:58,350 So this is like another. So like one time one kind of directional clue was this brochure, 36 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:08,290 but also like it was almost simultaneous that he received some information from Budapest asking like him to recommend somebody for their program. 37 00:04:08,290 --> 00:04:11,769 Also from the medieval studies and of course like the here. 38 00:04:11,770 --> 00:04:20,559 So so somebody he thought about was me, you know. So I basically like got in a way like direction for this Budapest from two sources, you know. 39 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:27,040 And yeah, I think it was very special, you know, also like how it started, it was like extremely hard, you know, excruciating. 40 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,709 The whole idea that because it was like the first time I did something in English and my English was kind of very weak, you know, 41 00:04:32,710 --> 00:04:38,750 and I didn't realise how you living abroad, you know, and also like the level of scholarship was of course way higher. 42 00:04:38,770 --> 00:04:42,849 It was like top international scholars and professors and everything. 43 00:04:42,850 --> 00:04:51,100 And I'm like coming from the medieval, you know, level of scholarship from Ukraine, you know, so like, yeah. 44 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,160 So I basically got, I was deprived of sleep and everything. 45 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,879 So it was like but it was absolutely fascinating. 46 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,370 I think I had such an enjoyment of what I was doing for the first time in my life. 47 00:05:03,370 --> 00:05:08,079 You know, I thought, yeah, this is. And then I stayed kind of for the page too, you know, 48 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:15,200 like I moved to Byzantine studies from the West and medieval studies because I did my master in kind of intense, 49 00:05:15,220 --> 00:05:21,740 you know, like, and then I kind of migrated again. But I think this is the way I live because I migrate all the time. 50 00:05:21,750 --> 00:05:26,170 Yeah, it's something that you mentioned about that experience of going to Budapest 51 00:05:26,170 --> 00:05:31,329 was the friendliness and collegiality of young fellow students and teachers. 52 00:05:31,330 --> 00:05:35,980 Yeah. What do you think was so unique about that place that gave you that feeling? 53 00:05:36,340 --> 00:05:39,459 Yeah, I think again, you know, I stayed there for a couple of years, 54 00:05:39,460 --> 00:05:49,000 but the first year I was really exceptional because of the group of students that we had, and I don't even like the staff that are working there. 55 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,200 They said that our group was kind of exceptional, you know. So I think I was lucky in that regard. 56 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,310 Yeah. Yeah. So really bonded, you know. 57 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,780 And yeah, that was like amazing because these were people like from different countries, 58 00:06:02,020 --> 00:06:06,570 mostly European countries like post social bloc, post-Soviet countries. 59 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,550 And they had like some American, some Germans, you know, but they were kind of rarity, you know. 60 00:06:11,860 --> 00:06:16,120 Now, this university changed a lot, you know, so they went global. 61 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,190 So they're like students from all over the world. But at that time, it was like more regional. 62 00:06:22,670 --> 00:06:27,379 And yeah, so like there's a friendliness that students and the professors, 63 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:32,270 you know, so basically like there was even the situation when we would call, 64 00:06:32,270 --> 00:06:38,990 let's say our gene, you know, he was, his name was Joseph Lutz Lasky, Hungarian specialist in medieval architecture. 65 00:06:39,380 --> 00:06:48,110 And then when we would call him Joseph, he would say, your score, you know, which is not Joseph house name, you know, which is so different. 66 00:06:48,110 --> 00:06:55,520 You know, like my experience I'd say was German academia. When you call somebody for just the first name, you know, like people kind of shrink, 67 00:06:55,850 --> 00:07:00,500 you know, they feel very uncomfortable with that, you know, so like to post. 68 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:05,690 Yeah, yeah. You know, so like you do have to say all the title, you know, like, whatever. 69 00:07:05,990 --> 00:07:11,180 Yeah. So and the atmosphere, you know, the relationships, you know, like everything was so cool. 70 00:07:11,180 --> 00:07:14,330 And they also had trips like academic, academic trips. 71 00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:20,540 The first one was the beginning of the year and we travelled to someplace like 72 00:07:20,540 --> 00:07:25,490 some region in Hungary and then we had like a spring academic field trip. 73 00:07:25,820 --> 00:07:30,440 And I think the first year we went to Transylvania, you know, in Romania like the region, 74 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:36,409 and we had to do the presentations and you basically spend one week touring with on the bus, 75 00:07:36,410 --> 00:07:42,700 you know, it's a very remote places and again, like it creates community, you know, you want to gather your shot. 76 00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:48,110 Yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah. So I do have like some of the fondest memories of that time. 77 00:07:48,110 --> 00:07:51,409 Yes. Amazing. And have you maintain those connections to some of them? 78 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:56,899 Yes. You know, like one of my best friends, she lives now, she's in Lithuania in the wilderness. 79 00:07:56,900 --> 00:08:02,809 And yeah, it's been did have it up to, you know, about with the beginning of the war and then ever since she came back, 80 00:08:02,810 --> 00:08:06,360 you know and yeah, that's like some of my best friends told me. 81 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:09,680 That's amazing that you want to hold on to those connections. Yeah, very valuable. 82 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:15,379 Yeah. And how did you find because obviously that was a very kind of intense a new experience 83 00:08:15,380 --> 00:08:19,310 for you in terms of personal growth and also academic and professional growth. 84 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:27,380 How how do you balance those two things for yourself or how did you then and how do you now, you know, like personal and academic maintenance. 85 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:33,860 Yeah. You know, like. Yeah, I don't think like I made any special point of doing that at that time. 86 00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:38,329 It just like it was ah, you just go with the flow, you know, whatever happens, you know. 87 00:08:38,330 --> 00:08:45,050 But like with years it kind of took its toll on my personal life, you know, because I had to travel to move, 88 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:51,950 know places and it's kind of none of my relationships more, you know, you just move, you know? 89 00:08:51,950 --> 00:08:56,959 And yeah, this is also like I. Right, yeah. I had a partner, you know, in Germany. 90 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,170 But of course, after a short period of time, it just not working, you know? 91 00:09:00,170 --> 00:09:03,290 So yeah, so some people managed to combine. 92 00:09:03,290 --> 00:09:07,089 I haven't managed so I haven't been successful in that regard. 93 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:10,220 I'm very successful professionally and academically. 94 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:15,620 Well, yeah. So in like in my case, I did have to make choices and they were hard choices. 95 00:09:15,620 --> 00:09:20,090 You know, some people can combine. I couldn't I mean, these choices are difficult. 96 00:09:20,450 --> 00:09:24,379 And that also reminds me a little bit of your second pivot point. 97 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:31,670 Yeah. On Jim Kwik. Yeah. Who is a as far as I understand, he's a kind of brain coach, podcaster, writer. 98 00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:40,760 So I'm, I'm kind of interested as well in how you approach your own brain development and how you've brought the practices of Jim Kwik, 99 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,420 made it into your daily life so that yeah, you know, like, I mean, 100 00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:49,370 actually I did say that it was like an amazing discovery for me and very inspirational. 101 00:09:49,370 --> 00:09:54,739 And it came about the time when the whole world was in the confinement in the French. 102 00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:57,440 Like confinement, I suppose, like because of COVID, you know, 103 00:09:57,470 --> 00:10:02,420 and of course like people were looking into whatever self developing hygiene and everything. 104 00:10:02,420 --> 00:10:09,409 It was like a booming industry, you know. And I taught English online line and I did something else. 105 00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:14,360 I think also I did like another master in project management, also mine and so that. 106 00:10:15,590 --> 00:10:20,330 Yeah. So I somehow it was by accident that I just came across some of his talks. 107 00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:25,979 And then I looked him up and I was like, so inspired. 108 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:31,290 I made a lesson, you know, for my students, and it's was like a hit, you know, especially as younger people. 109 00:10:31,290 --> 00:10:35,550 They could really relate to it and it resonated with them. 110 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:44,700 Well, it was a little bit different with older people, but for me it was absolutely fantastic, you know, like some of the same that I heard. 111 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:53,010 For me personally, because I was already like kind of, you know, a little bit disillusioned or discouraged, 112 00:10:53,010 --> 00:10:56,280 you know, like and his inspiration and motivation was behind that. 113 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,400 It's basically never too late to study, to learn to change your life, to do things, you know, like and so on. 114 00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:09,000 And it does come with a brain development, the intellectual development, which is or has been always a part, 115 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,130 of course, of my life, because I've been learning languages, I've been teaching our kids and research and so on. 116 00:11:15,660 --> 00:11:23,510 I mean, like there is a lot to unpack about him, you know, and some of his strategies and tools that he uses that are very ancient. 117 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:30,360 So basically, like some of my material or like books from the ancient antiquity, you know, 118 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:37,349 like were like they do speak about this mnemonic techniques and how people were remembering 119 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:42,170 things like by placing them in a place they know very well in a house in the palace. 120 00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:47,430 And so, yeah, to summarise the tips, if you could give me three tips, what would they be? 121 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:55,110 You know, I didn't go into his techniques, you know, but like some inspirational points and actually, like, it's not new what he says, 122 00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:59,939 but just like the way he brings it all together, you know, some that I think is crucial, 123 00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:05,590 you know, and I'm like, oh, this is what I would tell anybody, including myself. 124 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:11,759 And this is a quote from Rumi, but he brings it up and it's a very profound. 125 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,990 So like basically it goes like sell your cleverness for the world. 126 00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:19,500 And so your cleverness for the world for. 127 00:12:20,030 --> 00:12:23,249 Yeah. So if I may ask you. Yeah, if I may I ask you, 128 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:29,729 how do you understand that the I taught it to non-native speakers and of course I people I mean I would have to think what is bewilderment, 129 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:35,250 you know, like so on. But for you, what does it say? It means approaching things with curiosity. 130 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:41,700 You sort of don't assume you know something. Yeah. And create space for you to feel bewildered by something you. 131 00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:46,379 Absolutely. And this is something that I think that magic that you lose when you grow up. 132 00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:50,280 Isn't it like when you're kids, you know, like you are curious just naturally about that. 133 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:56,550 And I also think in the work, the word bewilderment I think is an interesting choice because tied up in there is fear. 134 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,209 You know, it's also it's about being curious in a kind of playful way. 135 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:04,320 But sometimes new things are scary. You know, it's also a little bit of courage in the. 136 00:13:04,330 --> 00:13:07,530 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sure. Yeah. So you see. 137 00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:11,600 Yeah. So so normally does that does that resonate with your students? 138 00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:20,069 Oh, yeah. I'm just I think yes. You know, but with all that, you know, like and also I think it's well, of course like the UK is kind of different. 139 00:13:20,070 --> 00:13:30,600 You know, Ukraine is a different cultural setting and some, you know, like but still there is a lot of emphasis in the modern education systems. 140 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:36,089 I would say on knowledge, you know, you have to learn for exams, you have to know, 141 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:39,320 you know, like I remember, you know, and everything, which is a good thing, you know, 142 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:41,160 I don't want to say it's wrong or anything, you know, 143 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:48,780 but you lose that approach of really being curious or why we're doing that, you know, discovering things, you know. 144 00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:56,830 And I think it's like essential for me in my life, you know, because I lose that curiosity, you know, everything becomes like, insipid. 145 00:13:56,850 --> 00:14:03,120 Yeah. You know, like for me. Yeah. And also in research, this is like quintessentially what research is about. 146 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,359 You are curious about something, isn't it? That's really interesting. 147 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:11,070 So you have to challenge yourself. Yes. So that was one thing I have to think about. 148 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,350 Three is that like three, you know, like, okay, all right. 149 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:22,590 And how do you like I think that's really something that that will resonate with listeners 150 00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:26,999 and current students who are going through the research both personally and professionally. 151 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,030 I think that principle of curiosity really applies. 152 00:14:30,630 --> 00:14:36,320 Do you feel that it's something that you have to work out and remind yourself to keep chipping away at 153 00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:42,219 kind of every every day or regularly or how like how do you ensure that you hold on to that curiosity? 154 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:48,030 Yeah, I think like this is in a way probably it's again like very different individually, you know. 155 00:14:48,030 --> 00:14:56,399 But I do have some elements of my work that just keep me excited and motivated, let's say. 156 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,650 So I'm very excited about languages, you know. And I must say, like, if I didn't have to work there and you see, 157 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:07,430 I would just like keep on learning languages all the time, you know, or something else, you know, like that. 158 00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:15,299 Someone would just. PACE Yeah, great. So that is like this natural ignition that goes on, you know? 159 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:21,390 So like, well, not everybody has it, but I think that if you can discover something like that, you know, or. 160 00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:26,550 Maybe something we had in childhood or in earlier years, you know, the abandoned data we lost. 161 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,280 You know, so maybe we can discover or find something else. 162 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:33,450 You know, so there's a kind of a little bit of work. 163 00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:42,360 Yeah, I agree. And how do you how do you help nurture that in younger students and remind them that they need to keep doing that? 164 00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:49,499 Yeah. I mean, like I remember when I came back to Ukraine after having lived like 45 years abroad, 165 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:53,969 you know, they had like a course of lectures, a module on Byzantine culture. 166 00:15:53,970 --> 00:16:01,049 And I started it was a fire, it was a slide on the, uh, from the show of Dolce and Gabbana, you know, 167 00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:08,190 because they had like this these sometimes Sicilian mosaics, you know, like from the tires and that and then like, of course, you. 168 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:12,629 So basically something that catches the attention of students, you know, 169 00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:17,340 maybe you can relate it to adapted to the modern world, to the modern setting. 170 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:22,860 Because again, like, my field is kind of very remote from our reality, you know? 171 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:30,390 Yeah. So you do need to bring it into the present and show them relevance or show like that. 172 00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:33,690 It still can be valid. Yeah. Yeah. So that that makes sense. 173 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:40,020 Well, speaking of this kind of past and present thing, I mean, that's that's very much what your what your work is about. 174 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:44,220 And I like the link that you made between Jim Kwik, 175 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,229 your interest in Hungary and how you kind of tied that into your own research 176 00:16:49,230 --> 00:16:54,180 on Byzantium legends with the role of the imaginative versus the historical. 177 00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:57,210 Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit more about that distinction? Yeah. 178 00:16:57,300 --> 00:16:59,690 So basically this again is a long process, you know, 179 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:08,189 so like you have all these elements or agency that are working and you sometimes don't even notice that something has like had some influence on you. 180 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:14,099 But there were like definitely I can identify this memory thing like through different sources. 181 00:17:14,100 --> 00:17:19,860 And one of them was the Book of American Authors, The Book of Memory, which of course, is classics for the medieval. 182 00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:25,829 It's you know, it's like an amazing book. And I think actually Jim could learn a lot from that book. 183 00:17:25,830 --> 00:17:29,460 I'm not sure that he even knows you know, about it. 184 00:17:29,850 --> 00:17:37,139 And also, like in the modern world, there is like, I would say, almost obsession with memory, you know. 185 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:43,140 So you see, it's like in so many different spheres, you know, one of them is, of course, like the trauma. 186 00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:45,930 And this is like post the Second World War, you know, 187 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:51,120 and it developed like in the studies of people who went through the war, especially the Holocaust and everything. 188 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:58,020 But now it's again like I'm confronted with that in Ukraine because like people go through the war experience, 189 00:17:58,020 --> 00:18:04,799 you know, and it traumatises them, you know, and the kinds of consequences or symptoms will be seen later, you know. 190 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:12,150 So this is in a a real world, you know, that is like a very practical application of how you study memory, 191 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:18,030 how your memory retains traumatic experiences and what to do with that, you know. 192 00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:26,280 So of course, like these fields belong to psychology and neuroscience and all other things and but this memory is ubiquitous also. 193 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:33,290 I can literally studies in the history in the yeah, you name it like sociology. 194 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:44,940 And for me there is no. I would say no single approach that I have been inspired by, but this is the variety of things. 195 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:52,679 And when I deal with my material and these are legends about the foundation of churches for historians like hardcore historians, 196 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,380 you know, what does the word legend mean to you? Yeah. 197 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:06,090 So, I mean, like, of course, there are different definitions or different standards, but for me, the crucial distinction is the myth and the legend. 198 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:15,080 So at the most does not involve any like real figures or real places, you know. 199 00:19:15,090 --> 00:19:22,020 So it can be in somewhere on the Mount Olympus, you know, it can be somewhere else because, you know, 200 00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:33,330 the origin of myths, which are very remote and they are basically stories about something that is very unreal. 201 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:40,049 So let's say put let's put it in such terms, legends, they are based on some events, people, 202 00:19:40,050 --> 00:19:49,470 some coordinates that exist in the real life, you know, but the rest is not what we call the empirical facts or the empirical truth. 203 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:54,360 So the empirical events, as we can know, the rest is almost made up. 204 00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:59,250 Yeah, but it's still about the real people, real places, you know. 205 00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:05,250 So it's not about like use on the summer of the month. 206 00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:10,170 And so like and for historians, like they, 207 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:16,500 they would just call this legends and these spaces because they are not containing 208 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:25,170 facts and details that are reliable in the conventional historical sense. 209 00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:29,360 Right. So yeah, so like let's have it. 210 00:20:29,370 --> 00:20:32,519 The dates is off, you know, like the names off, you know, the something. 211 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:39,149 There are angels that are miracles, you know. So of course for historians, well, this is not the historical source, right? 212 00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:43,380 And let's say like one of the recent translations like in the commentary, 213 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,239 they also would say or the translator would say, this is not a historical fact. 214 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,360 This is not a historical fact. This is not you didn't know. 215 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,260 And that's true. Like, let's say the story that I wrote my dissertation about, 216 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,980 like about the building of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, and I will be talking about it's like on the 2nd of March. 217 00:21:03,450 --> 00:21:11,290 So that was the most popular story. It has like more than 80 manuscripts in Greek, like Byzantine Greek, modern Greek, you know, 218 00:21:11,310 --> 00:21:20,040 it has translations into Latin, medieval Slavonic, Persian, Turkish, you know, and yeah, Georgian. 219 00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:27,270 And so that was the only text that has been preserved in so many versions and the manuscripts and the rest. 220 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:35,249 We have like excerpts about the building of the Church of Historians, you know, which exist in one or maybe like a couple of manuscripts, you know. 221 00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:40,920 So this is what people actually wanted to hear. This is what they loved and this is what was welcomed. 222 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:47,610 And that in a way or not in a way, but it realistically reflects their mentality, 223 00:21:47,610 --> 00:21:53,969 how they saw the world, how they perceived the past, how they perceived the past of this church. 224 00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:55,470 You know, that was their memory. 225 00:21:55,470 --> 00:22:04,860 You know, now we came to differentiate between this historical memory of remembrance and imaginative, but for them, they didn't have this distinction. 226 00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:08,280 So actually for the readers of those legends, 227 00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:17,190 they feel like a more accurate representation of their own experience as soon as they die in imagination feeling which is part of everyday life. 228 00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:27,749 Yeah. So they couldn't have imagined that past without the intrusion of gods and appearance of angels and miraculous events and so on. 229 00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:30,809 You know, it was the part of them that's the past. 230 00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:34,110 Yeah. Is that what legends mean to you? Why? 231 00:22:34,110 --> 00:22:40,349 Why are they important to you? I think I'm just interested in stories, you know, and I think people like stories. 232 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:46,559 So nowadays we replace them with soap operas. Mrs. Chavez was whatever right at that time. 233 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,680 They didn't have the TV, they didn't have Internet, so they knew the stories. 234 00:22:49,710 --> 00:22:53,120 Yeah, this is just the part of human nature. Human nature. 235 00:22:53,130 --> 00:22:58,800 I agree. And this also reminds me of the way you know, the way that history is taught. 236 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:07,650 And it's taught from certain people's perspectives. And those perspectives naturally, because they're told from one side, you lose other perspectives. 237 00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:09,930 And that changes things, doesn't it? Yeah. 238 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:17,489 And also like history as a science as we are used to it, it's also being re-evaluated throughout its existence. 239 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:24,120 So it is known as historiography, right. So like about writing of history and nowadays it's very clear, you know, 240 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:32,189 like so the history or the perception of past is very much perceived through the lens of the present. 241 00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:35,550 And besides, so we have our categories. We have our. 242 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,940 A vision of how things are or which it's like. 243 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:47,420 And for us it's natural because this is how you crop, you know, and this is what we've ingested, you know, and so on. 244 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:54,830 But if you kind of separate yourself from are these concepts that are widely accepted, 245 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,389 you can ask, So why do you always think that this is like this or why? 246 00:23:59,390 --> 00:24:02,900 You know, like, I think this is true. This is not true. 247 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:04,430 This is bad. This is not bad. 248 00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:13,459 You know, like this is also, you know, in our kind of mentality, you know, very dependent on also like where you grew up, you know? 249 00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:18,440 Yeah, you know, culture, political, social, environment, all effects. 250 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:26,629 And of course, like our individual experiences, you know, so some people see something or notice something because they have that concept, 251 00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:34,280 you know, like, so for me, I'm sorry, it's like from another, you know, I feel I grew up in a country where there are no social classes. 252 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,620 You know, basically you are told, you know something? 253 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:42,169 I mean, now there are rich and poor, you know, so for me I'd say when I come to the UK, you know, 254 00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:49,549 and of course it's not, you know, kind of pronounced you know, but it's still something that you have to be aware of, 255 00:24:49,550 --> 00:24:54,890 you know, because it is in the culture, it is in the society and I'm actually blind to it, 256 00:24:54,890 --> 00:24:58,750 you know, because for me, I don't have a concept, you know, so just, you know. 257 00:24:58,930 --> 00:25:04,210 Yeah. And so, like, I had to discover, you know, these things and kind of educate myself, you know. 258 00:25:04,430 --> 00:25:07,930 Yeah. So the same, you know, like you look into the past, you know, and you, 259 00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:13,249 you will see something because you are conditioned to see it, you know, and you will miss something. 260 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:19,130 But yeah, I mean how is that so few culturally settling into the UK and and Oxford. 261 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,110 You know like I'm, I'm kind of very international and cosmopolitan, you know. 262 00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:31,660 So I, I think I function the best in the international environment, you know, and this is that international environment. 263 00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:35,180 I never I'm from Oxford because it yeah. Yeah. 264 00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:40,909 You know so you can barely like here I'm sorry it's a British English like because people are from everywhere, you know. 265 00:25:40,910 --> 00:25:48,580 So I cannot say that I'm actually it kind of initiated the, you know, you know, in the British culture now. 266 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:57,649 Yeah, that's a very good point. And tell me tell me what your biggest goals are now in life, either professionally or personally. 267 00:25:57,650 --> 00:25:57,980 Yeah. 268 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:08,749 You know, like I honestly, I really kind of dislike all those questions, especially when you ask, like, what do you see yourself in five or ten years? 269 00:26:08,750 --> 00:26:14,960 I'm like, Oh my goodness. My life has been just like, you know, throwing all unimaginable things at me. 270 00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:19,400 And I oh, I mean, the question, where will you be in in five years? 271 00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:22,560 I also find it okay. 272 00:26:22,580 --> 00:26:25,760 I do think like, I don't know, maybe I have aspirations. 273 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,890 I have maybe some idea. 274 00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:35,209 Yeah. Do you like the idea? Yeah, I think I would like to settle somewhere, you know, because especially now, like, 275 00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:40,070 I mean, there is no way to ten, basically, at least for the foreseeable future, you know. 276 00:26:40,810 --> 00:26:47,710 Yeah. Yeah. So this is like it's very practical, you know, but it's effects like of functionality as a human being, you know. 277 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:56,600 So that's yeah and yeah, I'm, you know, like I would like to develop in the some of the areas that I, 278 00:26:56,780 --> 00:27:01,069 I've been working in and this is like interpretation in particular. 279 00:27:01,070 --> 00:27:07,969 And I think it's possible to combine because like the research is very isolated and I basically don't speak. 280 00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:15,140 And so it's just reading, writing, you know, but I am but as you probably can know, it's, you know, like very different kind of person. 281 00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:20,430 I do need like solitude and, you know, like concentration and everything, you know. 282 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:24,110 But I'm actually really lacking, you know, that social part. 283 00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:28,669 And I think like I enjoyed interpretation very much. 284 00:27:28,670 --> 00:27:33,050 I worked with the OSCE in Donbas, you know, like in the conflict area. 285 00:27:33,650 --> 00:27:37,340 And it was again very challenging, very demanding environment. 286 00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:40,249 But I, yeah, I like that kind of stuff. 287 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:49,040 So I think, yeah, I would I actually apply to volunteer to interpret for Ukrainian refugees, you know, was one of the NGOs. 288 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,100 So in the process because they have like a very long procedure, you know, like of going through, yeah. 289 00:27:55,340 --> 00:28:05,149 So I need to do like a scheduling session, but I think it's like one of the ways, you know, and also I, I think this is part of my life, you know, 290 00:28:05,150 --> 00:28:13,160 and I want to, I mean, like, it seems that these are two different spheres, but they're not, you know, because like, this is the combination. 291 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:24,290 You are still like the, um, citizen of your country and everything that is going on there, you know, and even like with the people who are abroad. 292 00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:31,519 And there are a lot of, of course, you know, Ukrainians, you know, who don't know the language, you know, so in a way, it can be useful. 293 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,389 And so how you said you're kind of missing community here. 294 00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:41,580 Yeah. How how does that feel? You know, are you kind of is it difficult to meet people or build a social life? 295 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:47,670 I would say so because like, first of all, my work is what I'm supposed to do. 296 00:28:47,670 --> 00:28:50,930 I'm supposed to do research, right? That's why I'm here. It's very dependent. 297 00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:57,800 It's very independent. But it just means you just basically confine yourself to the library and do you do your work. 298 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,480 And this is also the case study. Yes. Yeah. 299 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:08,230 So this is not like you're coming to the office, you have a chat, you know, like small talk, you know, and something just just, 300 00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:15,720 you know, I think studies of of literature and language, they kind of lend themselves to people who are naturally quite introverted. 301 00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:19,560 Yeah, but at the same time, everybody needs community and connection of some sort. 302 00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:20,450 Right. Yeah. 303 00:29:20,490 --> 00:29:29,820 And you know, I mean, I've known some introverts in my life and I think that I mean, those who can really just stand on their own, you know, around. 304 00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:39,290 Yeah. Yeah. So them. No, I agree. I can do it for, you know, kind of while to be like a while, but maybe to a real introvert, it's not. 305 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:42,340 Yeah. You know. Thank you so much for coming. 306 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:45,120 Thank you. Thank you for having me, I think.