Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives.
I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wolfson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
This month's episode is a conversation with Kutcher Kovalchuk, an energetic scholar studying Byzantine legends.
Cartier has moved countries countless times, most recently joining us here in Oxford from Ukraine as an at risk scholar.
She first studied abroad in Budapest.
So we kick off our conversation talking about her first experience of living and studying in a different country.
Yeah. It was, like quite a long time ago. I'm not going to guess, you know, but it was like still very much post-Soviet Ukraine, you know,
and it was like really exceptional that people could go to study abroad, you know,
now it's quite common, you know, and basically who are the ones you know?
And even if you sort of don't have money, you know, like you always can apply for some scholarships or something.
But at that time it was exceptional. So I got accepted to the Master in Medical Studies program in Budapest and the other Central European University,
and basically coming from the background of classics and moving to a new area and also moving to a different country.
And of course, like the everything was so different.
But I do want to move to a new area.
So, you know, like I finished my class, it was diploma, it was five years.
So we didn't have like better than most at that time, you know.
So I wanted to do like what we call it's kind of equivalent of, you know, but it's called differently, you know, like in Ukraine.
Yeah. So I wanted to do that, you know, and I actually I did see myself just like sitting in these books, you know, in the research, you know.
So that was kind of my vision of my life. Yeah.
Anyway, so I applied that I was accepted for a program like the pizza program in Ukraine.
But then I came across a brochure in one of the libraries about this Central European University,
and I just flicked through the pages and I saw their program in medieval studies and my heart started pumping,
you know, and I was like, I melted, you know? And just, like, reading about it.
Yeah, yeah. You know, and I just, you know, like, that's something that I really want to do, you know?
And, you know, like some things, I mean, like in different people, people are like, people take decisions in different ways, you know?
But for me, as some of the best decisions that I happen to make, like the kinds of directions from different sources,
you know, so I guess confirmed from another source, you know, another say I'm just like, Yeah, that must be something for me.
And there was like an older professor in a Lviv while I was basically living at
that time at the university that although I'm not from there and he was blind
and I was helping him like to do some commentary on the Vita Karoly Magni He
was like making a translation of this medieval western carolingian source,
like writing text into Ukrainian and his wife helped him.
And of course, like because he was very advanced in years, as you would say, and also blind.
So he needed help. So I was helping him and he got like the this in Budapest, you know, this is in Vive.
So this is like another. So like one time one kind of directional clue was this brochure,
but also like it was almost simultaneous that he received some information from Budapest asking like him to recommend somebody for their program.
Also from the medieval studies and of course like the here.
So so somebody he thought about was me, you know. So I basically like got in a way like direction for this Budapest from two sources, you know.
And yeah, I think it was very special, you know, also like how it started, it was like extremely hard, you know, excruciating.
The whole idea that because it was like the first time I did something in English and my English was kind of very weak, you know,
and I didn't realise how you living abroad, you know, and also like the level of scholarship was of course way higher.
It was like top international scholars and professors and everything.
And I'm like coming from the medieval, you know, level of scholarship from Ukraine, you know, so like, yeah.
So I basically got, I was deprived of sleep and everything.
So it was like but it was absolutely fascinating.
I think I had such an enjoyment of what I was doing for the first time in my life.
You know, I thought, yeah, this is. And then I stayed kind of for the page too, you know,
like I moved to Byzantine studies from the West and medieval studies because I did my master in kind of intense,
you know, like, and then I kind of migrated again. But I think this is the way I live because I migrate all the time.
Yeah, it's something that you mentioned about that experience of going to Budapest
was the friendliness and collegiality of young fellow students and teachers.
Yeah. What do you think was so unique about that place that gave you that feeling?
Yeah, I think again, you know, I stayed there for a couple of years,
but the first year I was really exceptional because of the group of students that we had, and I don't even like the staff that are working there.
They said that our group was kind of exceptional, you know. So I think I was lucky in that regard.
Yeah. Yeah. So really bonded, you know.
And yeah, that was like amazing because these were people like from different countries,
mostly European countries like post social bloc, post-Soviet countries.
And they had like some American, some Germans, you know, but they were kind of rarity, you know.
Now, this university changed a lot, you know, so they went global.
So they're like students from all over the world. But at that time, it was like more regional.
And yeah, so like there's a friendliness that students and the professors,
you know, so basically like there was even the situation when we would call,
let's say our gene, you know, he was, his name was Joseph Lutz Lasky, Hungarian specialist in medieval architecture.
And then when we would call him Joseph, he would say, your score, you know, which is not Joseph house name, you know, which is so different.
You know, like my experience I'd say was German academia. When you call somebody for just the first name, you know, like people kind of shrink,
you know, they feel very uncomfortable with that, you know, so like to post.
Yeah, yeah. You know, so like you do have to say all the title, you know, like, whatever.
Yeah. So and the atmosphere, you know, the relationships, you know, like everything was so cool.
And they also had trips like academic, academic trips.
The first one was the beginning of the year and we travelled to someplace like
some region in Hungary and then we had like a spring academic field trip.
And I think the first year we went to Transylvania, you know, in Romania like the region,
and we had to do the presentations and you basically spend one week touring with on the bus,
you know, it's a very remote places and again, like it creates community, you know, you want to gather your shot.
Yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah. So I do have like some of the fondest memories of that time.
Yes. Amazing. And have you maintain those connections to some of them?
Yes. You know, like one of my best friends, she lives now, she's in Lithuania in the wilderness.
And yeah, it's been did have it up to, you know, about with the beginning of the war and then ever since she came back,
you know and yeah, that's like some of my best friends told me.
That's amazing that you want to hold on to those connections. Yeah, very valuable.
Yeah. And how did you find because obviously that was a very kind of intense a new experience
for you in terms of personal growth and also academic and professional growth.
How how do you balance those two things for yourself or how did you then and how do you now, you know, like personal and academic maintenance.
Yeah. You know, like. Yeah, I don't think like I made any special point of doing that at that time.
It just like it was ah, you just go with the flow, you know, whatever happens, you know.
But like with years it kind of took its toll on my personal life, you know, because I had to travel to move,
know places and it's kind of none of my relationships more, you know, you just move, you know?
And yeah, this is also like I. Right, yeah. I had a partner, you know, in Germany.
But of course, after a short period of time, it just not working, you know?
So yeah, so some people managed to combine.
I haven't managed so I haven't been successful in that regard.
I'm very successful professionally and academically.
Well, yeah. So in like in my case, I did have to make choices and they were hard choices.
You know, some people can combine. I couldn't I mean, these choices are difficult.
And that also reminds me a little bit of your second pivot point.
Yeah. On Jim Kwik. Yeah. Who is a as far as I understand, he's a kind of brain coach, podcaster, writer.
So I'm, I'm kind of interested as well in how you approach your own brain development and how you've brought the practices of Jim Kwik,
made it into your daily life so that yeah, you know, like, I mean,
actually I did say that it was like an amazing discovery for me and very inspirational.
And it came about the time when the whole world was in the confinement in the French.
Like confinement, I suppose, like because of COVID, you know,
and of course like people were looking into whatever self developing hygiene and everything.
It was like a booming industry, you know. And I taught English online line and I did something else.
I think also I did like another master in project management, also mine and so that.
Yeah. So I somehow it was by accident that I just came across some of his talks.
And then I looked him up and I was like, so inspired.
I made a lesson, you know, for my students, and it's was like a hit, you know, especially as younger people.
They could really relate to it and it resonated with them.
Well, it was a little bit different with older people, but for me it was absolutely fantastic, you know, like some of the same that I heard.
For me personally, because I was already like kind of, you know, a little bit disillusioned or discouraged,
you know, like and his inspiration and motivation was behind that.
It's basically never too late to study, to learn to change your life, to do things, you know, like and so on.
And it does come with a brain development, the intellectual development, which is or has been always a part,
of course, of my life, because I've been learning languages, I've been teaching our kids and research and so on.
I mean, like there is a lot to unpack about him, you know, and some of his strategies and tools that he uses that are very ancient.
So basically, like some of my material or like books from the ancient antiquity, you know,
like were like they do speak about this mnemonic techniques and how people were remembering
things like by placing them in a place they know very well in a house in the palace.
And so, yeah, to summarise the tips, if you could give me three tips, what would they be?
You know, I didn't go into his techniques, you know, but like some inspirational points and actually, like, it's not new what he says,
but just like the way he brings it all together, you know, some that I think is crucial,
you know, and I'm like, oh, this is what I would tell anybody, including myself.
And this is a quote from Rumi, but he brings it up and it's a very profound.
So like basically it goes like sell your cleverness for the world.
And so your cleverness for the world for.
Yeah. So if I may ask you. Yeah, if I may I ask you,
how do you understand that the I taught it to non-native speakers and of course I people I mean I would have to think what is bewilderment,
you know, like so on. But for you, what does it say? It means approaching things with curiosity.
You sort of don't assume you know something. Yeah. And create space for you to feel bewildered by something you.
Absolutely. And this is something that I think that magic that you lose when you grow up.
Isn't it like when you're kids, you know, like you are curious just naturally about that.
And I also think in the work, the word bewilderment I think is an interesting choice because tied up in there is fear.
You know, it's also it's about being curious in a kind of playful way.
But sometimes new things are scary. You know, it's also a little bit of courage in the.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sure. Yeah. So you see.
Yeah. So so normally does that does that resonate with your students?
Oh, yeah. I'm just I think yes. You know, but with all that, you know, like and also I think it's well, of course like the UK is kind of different.
You know, Ukraine is a different cultural setting and some, you know, like but still there is a lot of emphasis in the modern education systems.
I would say on knowledge, you know, you have to learn for exams, you have to know,
you know, like I remember, you know, and everything, which is a good thing, you know,
I don't want to say it's wrong or anything, you know,
but you lose that approach of really being curious or why we're doing that, you know, discovering things, you know.
And I think it's like essential for me in my life, you know, because I lose that curiosity, you know, everything becomes like, insipid.
Yeah. You know, like for me. Yeah. And also in research, this is like quintessentially what research is about.
You are curious about something, isn't it? That's really interesting.
So you have to challenge yourself. Yes. So that was one thing I have to think about.
Three is that like three, you know, like, okay, all right.
And how do you like I think that's really something that that will resonate with listeners
and current students who are going through the research both personally and professionally.
I think that principle of curiosity really applies.
Do you feel that it's something that you have to work out and remind yourself to keep chipping away at
kind of every every day or regularly or how like how do you ensure that you hold on to that curiosity?
Yeah, I think like this is in a way probably it's again like very different individually, you know.
But I do have some elements of my work that just keep me excited and motivated, let's say.
So I'm very excited about languages, you know. And I must say, like, if I didn't have to work there and you see,
I would just like keep on learning languages all the time, you know, or something else, you know, like that.
Someone would just. PACE Yeah, great. So that is like this natural ignition that goes on, you know?
So like, well, not everybody has it, but I think that if you can discover something like that, you know, or.
Maybe something we had in childhood or in earlier years, you know, the abandoned data we lost.
You know, so maybe we can discover or find something else.
You know, so there's a kind of a little bit of work.
Yeah, I agree. And how do you how do you help nurture that in younger students and remind them that they need to keep doing that?
Yeah. I mean, like I remember when I came back to Ukraine after having lived like 45 years abroad,
you know, they had like a course of lectures, a module on Byzantine culture.
And I started it was a fire, it was a slide on the, uh, from the show of Dolce and Gabbana, you know,
because they had like this these sometimes Sicilian mosaics, you know, like from the tires and that and then like, of course, you.
So basically something that catches the attention of students, you know,
maybe you can relate it to adapted to the modern world, to the modern setting.
Because again, like, my field is kind of very remote from our reality, you know?
Yeah. So you do need to bring it into the present and show them relevance or show like that.
It still can be valid. Yeah. Yeah. So that that makes sense.
Well, speaking of this kind of past and present thing, I mean, that's that's very much what your what your work is about.
And I like the link that you made between Jim Kwik,
your interest in Hungary and how you kind of tied that into your own research
on Byzantium legends with the role of the imaginative versus the historical.
Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit more about that distinction? Yeah.
So basically this again is a long process, you know,
so like you have all these elements or agency that are working and you sometimes don't even notice that something has like had some influence on you.
But there were like definitely I can identify this memory thing like through different sources.
And one of them was the Book of American Authors, The Book of Memory, which of course, is classics for the medieval.
It's you know, it's like an amazing book. And I think actually Jim could learn a lot from that book.
I'm not sure that he even knows you know, about it.
And also, like in the modern world, there is like, I would say, almost obsession with memory, you know.
So you see, it's like in so many different spheres, you know, one of them is, of course, like the trauma.
And this is like post the Second World War, you know,
and it developed like in the studies of people who went through the war, especially the Holocaust and everything.
But now it's again like I'm confronted with that in Ukraine because like people go through the war experience,
you know, and it traumatises them, you know, and the kinds of consequences or symptoms will be seen later, you know.
So this is in a a real world, you know, that is like a very practical application of how you study memory,
how your memory retains traumatic experiences and what to do with that, you know.
So of course, like these fields belong to psychology and neuroscience and all other things and but this memory is ubiquitous also.
I can literally studies in the history in the yeah, you name it like sociology.
And for me there is no. I would say no single approach that I have been inspired by, but this is the variety of things.
And when I deal with my material and these are legends about the foundation of churches for historians like hardcore historians,
you know, what does the word legend mean to you? Yeah.
So, I mean, like, of course, there are different definitions or different standards, but for me, the crucial distinction is the myth and the legend.
So at the most does not involve any like real figures or real places, you know.
So it can be in somewhere on the Mount Olympus, you know, it can be somewhere else because, you know,
the origin of myths, which are very remote and they are basically stories about something that is very unreal.
So let's say put let's put it in such terms, legends, they are based on some events, people,
some coordinates that exist in the real life, you know, but the rest is not what we call the empirical facts or the empirical truth.
So the empirical events, as we can know, the rest is almost made up.
Yeah, but it's still about the real people, real places, you know.
So it's not about like use on the summer of the month.
And so like and for historians, like they,
they would just call this legends and these spaces because they are not containing
facts and details that are reliable in the conventional historical sense.
Right. So yeah, so like let's have it.
The dates is off, you know, like the names off, you know, the something.
There are angels that are miracles, you know. So of course for historians, well, this is not the historical source, right?
And let's say like one of the recent translations like in the commentary,
they also would say or the translator would say, this is not a historical fact.
This is not a historical fact. This is not you didn't know.
And that's true. Like, let's say the story that I wrote my dissertation about,
like about the building of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, and I will be talking about it's like on the 2nd of March.
So that was the most popular story. It has like more than 80 manuscripts in Greek, like Byzantine Greek, modern Greek, you know,
it has translations into Latin, medieval Slavonic, Persian, Turkish, you know, and yeah, Georgian.
And so that was the only text that has been preserved in so many versions and the manuscripts and the rest.
We have like excerpts about the building of the Church of Historians, you know, which exist in one or maybe like a couple of manuscripts, you know.
So this is what people actually wanted to hear. This is what they loved and this is what was welcomed.
And that in a way or not in a way, but it realistically reflects their mentality,
how they saw the world, how they perceived the past, how they perceived the past of this church.
You know, that was their memory.
You know, now we came to differentiate between this historical memory of remembrance and imaginative, but for them, they didn't have this distinction.
So actually for the readers of those legends,
they feel like a more accurate representation of their own experience as soon as they die in imagination feeling which is part of everyday life.
Yeah. So they couldn't have imagined that past without the intrusion of gods and appearance of angels and miraculous events and so on.
You know, it was the part of them that's the past.
Yeah. Is that what legends mean to you? Why?
Why are they important to you? I think I'm just interested in stories, you know, and I think people like stories.
So nowadays we replace them with soap operas. Mrs. Chavez was whatever right at that time.
They didn't have the TV, they didn't have Internet, so they knew the stories.
Yeah, this is just the part of human nature. Human nature.
I agree. And this also reminds me of the way you know, the way that history is taught.
And it's taught from certain people's perspectives. And those perspectives naturally, because they're told from one side, you lose other perspectives.
And that changes things, doesn't it? Yeah.
And also like history as a science as we are used to it, it's also being re-evaluated throughout its existence.
So it is known as historiography, right. So like about writing of history and nowadays it's very clear, you know,
like so the history or the perception of past is very much perceived through the lens of the present.
And besides, so we have our categories. We have our.
A vision of how things are or which it's like.
And for us it's natural because this is how you crop, you know, and this is what we've ingested, you know, and so on.
But if you kind of separate yourself from are these concepts that are widely accepted,
you can ask, So why do you always think that this is like this or why?
You know, like, I think this is true. This is not true.
This is bad. This is not bad.
You know, like this is also, you know, in our kind of mentality, you know, very dependent on also like where you grew up, you know?
Yeah, you know, culture, political, social, environment, all effects.
And of course, like our individual experiences, you know, so some people see something or notice something because they have that concept,
you know, like, so for me, I'm sorry, it's like from another, you know, I feel I grew up in a country where there are no social classes.
You know, basically you are told, you know something?
I mean, now there are rich and poor, you know, so for me I'd say when I come to the UK, you know,
and of course it's not, you know, kind of pronounced you know, but it's still something that you have to be aware of,
you know, because it is in the culture, it is in the society and I'm actually blind to it,
you know, because for me, I don't have a concept, you know, so just, you know.
Yeah. And so, like, I had to discover, you know, these things and kind of educate myself, you know.
Yeah. So the same, you know, like you look into the past, you know, and you,
you will see something because you are conditioned to see it, you know, and you will miss something.
But yeah, I mean how is that so few culturally settling into the UK and and Oxford.
You know like I'm, I'm kind of very international and cosmopolitan, you know.
So I, I think I function the best in the international environment, you know, and this is that international environment.
I never I'm from Oxford because it yeah. Yeah.
You know so you can barely like here I'm sorry it's a British English like because people are from everywhere, you know.
So I cannot say that I'm actually it kind of initiated the, you know, you know, in the British culture now.
Yeah, that's a very good point. And tell me tell me what your biggest goals are now in life, either professionally or personally.
Yeah.
You know, like I honestly, I really kind of dislike all those questions, especially when you ask, like, what do you see yourself in five or ten years?
I'm like, Oh my goodness. My life has been just like, you know, throwing all unimaginable things at me.
And I oh, I mean, the question, where will you be in in five years?
I also find it okay.
I do think like, I don't know, maybe I have aspirations.
I have maybe some idea.
Yeah. Do you like the idea? Yeah, I think I would like to settle somewhere, you know, because especially now, like,
I mean, there is no way to ten, basically, at least for the foreseeable future, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. So this is like it's very practical, you know, but it's effects like of functionality as a human being, you know.
So that's yeah and yeah, I'm, you know, like I would like to develop in the some of the areas that I,
I've been working in and this is like interpretation in particular.
And I think it's possible to combine because like the research is very isolated and I basically don't speak.
And so it's just reading, writing, you know, but I am but as you probably can know, it's, you know, like very different kind of person.
I do need like solitude and, you know, like concentration and everything, you know.
But I'm actually really lacking, you know, that social part.
And I think like I enjoyed interpretation very much.
I worked with the OSCE in Donbas, you know, like in the conflict area.
And it was again very challenging, very demanding environment.
But I, yeah, I like that kind of stuff.
So I think, yeah, I would I actually apply to volunteer to interpret for Ukrainian refugees, you know, was one of the NGOs.
So in the process because they have like a very long procedure, you know, like of going through, yeah.
So I need to do like a scheduling session, but I think it's like one of the ways, you know, and also I, I think this is part of my life, you know,
and I want to, I mean, like, it seems that these are two different spheres, but they're not, you know, because like, this is the combination.
You are still like the, um, citizen of your country and everything that is going on there, you know, and even like with the people who are abroad.
And there are a lot of, of course, you know, Ukrainians, you know, who don't know the language, you know, so in a way, it can be useful.
And so how you said you're kind of missing community here.
Yeah. How how does that feel? You know, are you kind of is it difficult to meet people or build a social life?
I would say so because like, first of all, my work is what I'm supposed to do.
I'm supposed to do research, right? That's why I'm here. It's very dependent.
It's very independent. But it just means you just basically confine yourself to the library and do you do your work.
And this is also the case study. Yes. Yeah.
So this is not like you're coming to the office, you have a chat, you know, like small talk, you know, and something just just,
you know, I think studies of of literature and language, they kind of lend themselves to people who are naturally quite introverted.
Yeah, but at the same time, everybody needs community and connection of some sort.
Right. Yeah.
And you know, I mean, I've known some introverts in my life and I think that I mean, those who can really just stand on their own, you know, around.
Yeah. Yeah. So them. No, I agree. I can do it for, you know, kind of while to be like a while, but maybe to a real introvert, it's not.
Yeah. You know. Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you. Thank you for having me, I think.