1 00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:20,390 Welcome to good natured, a podcast where you can join us for uplifting chats that shine a light on conservation challenges. 2 00:00:20,390 --> 00:00:27,650 We interview inspiring conservationists from lots of different backgrounds, and they each engage with conservation in their own way. 3 00:00:27,650 --> 00:00:33,740 Today, we are thrilled to have Miriam Suprema as a guest. I'm Sophia and I'm Julia. 4 00:00:33,740 --> 00:00:45,400 Get ready to hear about traditional knowledge, buzz of paradise and the role of cultural identity in preserving biodiversity. 5 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,290 Hey, Julia. Hey, Sophia. I'm so excited to be talking to Miriam today. 6 00:00:50,290 --> 00:00:56,320 Yes. I'm like, I can't wait to have that conversation. So just to introduce her to our listeners. 7 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,270 Miriam is a conservationist in Papua New Guinea who has been working with conservation organisations 8 00:01:01,270 --> 00:01:07,450 there for over 10 years and co-founded the Papua New Guinea Institute of Biological Research. 9 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:11,800 And throughout her career, Miriam has been researching traditional use and valuation of wildlife, 10 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,660 especially Birds of Paradise, useful adornment and trade by local communities there. 11 00:01:16,660 --> 00:01:21,160 Now, Mariam is Synchronicity, Earth's flourishing diversity programme manager, 12 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:28,180 focussing on the recognition of traditional knowledge and its role in safeguarding biodiversity and promoting diverse life ways. 13 00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:37,150 And we can't wait to talk to Miriam, so let's hear from her. 14 00:01:37,150 --> 00:01:41,050 Hi, Mariana, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us today for the podcast. 15 00:01:41,050 --> 00:01:45,370 Thank you, Julia. Thank you for having me joined the the podcast. 16 00:01:45,370 --> 00:01:52,390 Could you tell us what drove you to becoming a conservationist? But also, I know you work specifically a lot on Bird of Paradise. 17 00:01:52,390 --> 00:02:01,000 So what triggered your interest in that specific species as well? It mostly has to do with the way I was brought up in my early years. 18 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,100 Growing up, we lived in a very remote part of the country where my father was posted, 19 00:02:06,100 --> 00:02:14,710 and it was such a privilege to be living in in such a remote location and having the freedom to wander and explore. 20 00:02:14,710 --> 00:02:21,520 And it was from those early years that I began to have such a fascination for just being outdoors, 21 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,310 but also the natural world when I was considering what what career path to take. 22 00:02:27,310 --> 00:02:31,910 Conservation wasn't that all appealing to many of the people in my age group. 23 00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:36,430 I think at the time people were looking at becoming lawyers. 24 00:02:36,430 --> 00:02:38,590 Doctors, engineers, 25 00:02:38,590 --> 00:02:50,590 accountants and conservation environmental biologists was seen as an undervalued profession way you're not geared to be someone with a lot of money. 26 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:59,410 But having said that, the point is that it is hard to attract people to to go into that career. 27 00:02:59,410 --> 00:03:05,440 But when you when you do have people interested people going into the career, it is. 28 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:12,550 I found that to be very rewarding. It's only a handful of people who are able to make it a career. 29 00:03:12,550 --> 00:03:17,530 I felt strongly for being involved in the environmental and conservation sector. 30 00:03:17,530 --> 00:03:20,740 Shortly after graduating from the University of Papua New Guinea, 31 00:03:20,740 --> 00:03:27,460 once joining the Wildlife Conservation Society as an intern and things started to develop. 32 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:33,940 From there, I began an interest in the intersect of culture and the environment. 33 00:03:33,940 --> 00:03:40,990 It was later, a few years later, that I, when I was working with the Institute of Biological Research, 34 00:03:40,990 --> 00:03:45,940 it was a young NGO working very much with traditional custodians, 35 00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:57,790 and it was looking at ways to merge or intersect indigenous ways of life, living with the environment, connecting species to culture and conservation. 36 00:03:57,790 --> 00:04:03,820 That was what I found fascinating, and the birds of Paradise fitted perfectly within that. 37 00:04:03,820 --> 00:04:11,320 I found that the species itself or the the group of birds in the family of biodiversity 38 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:19,240 are so diverse and how local people relate to them as well is also quite diverse. 39 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,890 But one common factor which can be seen is that they are so, 40 00:04:23,890 --> 00:04:33,190 so valued and respected for their beauty that they take on the identity of the birds through the richness of the culture, 41 00:04:33,190 --> 00:04:38,950 and is one of the ways in which it is expressed through the headdresses, which is very fascinating. 42 00:04:38,950 --> 00:04:44,140 So you've worked with local communities in the past to help kerb the hunting of the bird 43 00:04:44,140 --> 00:04:49,930 of paradise without sacrificing cultural practises such as these headdress adornments? 44 00:04:49,930 --> 00:04:55,120 So do you think you could tell us a bit more about that work? Thank you for that question. 45 00:04:55,120 --> 00:05:02,950 Yes. Oftentimes, you know, we we live in different parts of the world and sometimes believes in no way of 46 00:05:02,950 --> 00:05:08,650 relating to the environment or to species may vary with the birds of paradise. 47 00:05:08,650 --> 00:05:16,490 That's the knowledge associated with them and the connexion by the local people in in some parts of Papua New Guinea, 48 00:05:16,490 --> 00:05:22,570 so, so well-known, especially by certain knowledge holders of the communities. 49 00:05:22,570 --> 00:05:29,830 And an example of that are the hunters. They know when the birds come out to display, when they are breeding. 50 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:34,750 They know when the birds in full black plumage, 51 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:44,900 which is usually around the time they're breeding and they know the kind of fruits that the birds eats or what the preference for food. 52 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:52,970 So this knowledge, well known to certain knowledge holders, and because of that, there are certain state status associated with it. 53 00:05:52,970 --> 00:05:59,690 The connexion of the birds to culture is very intricate in some parts of Papua New Guinea. 54 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:07,940 Certain birds of paradise, the local names are bestowed to the son, for example, where I come from a bird of paradise species. 55 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:11,030 Their agenda is called bounder. 56 00:06:11,030 --> 00:06:24,880 And when the name is given to a young, a boy or after birth, it is an honourable name and it means a status and vitality in life. 57 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:32,470 And success in those names associated try to emulate the species not only to the birds of Paradise, 58 00:06:32,470 --> 00:06:36,670 but the other species as well, that offsets connexion. 59 00:06:36,670 --> 00:06:43,210 The interesting thing with the Birds of Paradise is that it is the males that are that have full, beautiful, 60 00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:53,440 full plumage and the females are down and the younger males as well off and and can be mistaken for females. 61 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:59,590 But the younger males can be quite active in reproduction at the time. 62 00:06:59,590 --> 00:07:06,700 So even if some species are over hunted or within a certain region, 63 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:14,050 you have the young male population coming up to fill up to the next recruitment age or age gap. 64 00:07:14,050 --> 00:07:19,210 But there are certain factors that are contributing to conservation concerns, 65 00:07:19,210 --> 00:07:29,920 and these are related to species that occupy a certain narrow elevation range or have the fragmented habitats or just rare within the landscape. 66 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,290 So those are the ones where overharvesting can be of great concern. 67 00:07:35,290 --> 00:07:38,830 It sounds like you have these really complex things which are interconnected, 68 00:07:38,830 --> 00:07:45,130 which are all of the kind of ecological patterns and distributions and kind of natural history, 69 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:54,580 life cycles of these birds and then the enormous cultural importance of the birds as well and the way that these things are intertwined. 70 00:07:54,580 --> 00:08:01,630 Can you talk a little bit about that balance? What is it like to try to balance that as a conservationist? 71 00:08:01,630 --> 00:08:08,110 That's a very good question. In my previous work, I should say we tried to encourage local people. 72 00:08:08,110 --> 00:08:17,260 That culture is important. You can continue to use the birds that are important to you through the expression of cultural identity. 73 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:21,820 It is, after all, the symbolism of identity when birds are hunted. 74 00:08:21,820 --> 00:08:30,430 Not only are they used for trade, but they also use to build community ties, strengthen their faith within communities. 75 00:08:30,430 --> 00:08:36,040 This was traditionally in the past, but they also provided a means of income to the local people. 76 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,960 When birds are won on hedgerows, they symbolise the identity of a person wearing it. 77 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,440 What culture or what place in Papua New Guinea they come from? 78 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,070 Different sorts of headdress represent different parts of Papua New Guinea. 79 00:08:48,070 --> 00:08:52,030 That is all very important. This can continue to exist. 80 00:08:52,030 --> 00:09:02,890 One of the messages we tried to get across to the communities, especially during the cultural events, is to preserve what they already have. 81 00:09:02,890 --> 00:09:12,010 If they have a set of address, it is important to preserve that, make sure it is kept well so that it continues to maintain the integrity. 82 00:09:12,010 --> 00:09:20,380 And in doing so, there will be no need to purchase new additional feathers or plumes to replace the old. 83 00:09:20,380 --> 00:09:29,050 That is one way. The other is that you can continue to be patriotic pride full of culture. 84 00:09:29,050 --> 00:09:36,850 And there's a trend now where I see that there's a lot of Papua New Guineans, especially younger generation during cultural events. 85 00:09:36,850 --> 00:09:40,360 They they want to wear more plumage on the headdress, 86 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:49,990 and oftentimes you can see more than 15 to 20 different different birds on the headdress, and that can be of concern. 87 00:09:49,990 --> 00:10:00,370 Having more feathers on the headdress or different kinds of species does not necessarily authenticate your identity and identity can often. 88 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:09,460 It's often inside you in what you do, what you carry, and in valuing your connexion to your land or your people. 89 00:10:09,460 --> 00:10:15,820 That is a sense of identity, but sometimes it is taking on board this materialistic approach. 90 00:10:15,820 --> 00:10:20,920 We should not, which should not be the case. I think you've made some really interesting points, 91 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:26,380 and that connects quite nicely to the next question we wanted to ask you and I love all these points around identity. 92 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:30,430 So you are now synchronicity, a flourishing diversity programme manager, 93 00:10:30,430 --> 00:10:37,570 and you focus on the recognition of traditional knowledge and its role in safeguarding biodiversity and also promoting diverse life ways. 94 00:10:37,570 --> 00:10:43,150 And I was wondering if you could dive in a bit more into why is it it is essential for conservationists, 95 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:48,940 you know, all around the world to recognise traditional knowledge. Traditional knowledge is very important. 96 00:10:48,940 --> 00:11:00,640 It is a system of different experiences that are important to the survival of local people and communities, especially indigenous societies. 97 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:09,170 This traditional knowledge are very much rooted to the way in which people live their lives. 98 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:14,890 It has helped them survive for hundreds and thousands of years. 99 00:11:14,890 --> 00:11:23,830 Traditional knowledge because of the way in which it is continued to enable people, local people to persist. 100 00:11:23,830 --> 00:11:29,410 It is. Often some very much playspace, it relates to physical boundaries. 101 00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:42,250 It relates to governance of resources. It relates to the knowledge associated with the physical environment in which the local people live in. 102 00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:51,040 So for instance, when there is a disruption in the natural environment, they'll just give an example is this? 103 00:11:51,040 --> 00:12:00,220 Logging that does happen in a community to an extent that you have, say, 50 percent of the forest locked down, 104 00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:07,060 that can also take away the knowledge that people hold in connexion to the environment. 105 00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:12,550 For instance, you lose the name of a tree, the physical tree when the tree is lost. 106 00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:14,410 You might have a name, 107 00:12:14,410 --> 00:12:24,200 but the tree is no longer there to make a reference to and why the tree may exist somewhere else in another part of the country. 108 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:31,510 That knowledge associated with the tree or the body of language or knowledge associated with the place is lost. 109 00:12:31,510 --> 00:12:40,690 That is why traditional knowledge is very important. It contains information that is important to a community. 110 00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:45,240 There's so much information that is retained in traditional knowledge. 111 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:51,370 I was actually reading another interview you did where you discussed the links between language and environmental knowledge. 112 00:12:51,370 --> 00:12:57,370 So kind of the ways that, for example, linguistic diversity and biodiversity can be linked. 113 00:12:57,370 --> 00:13:05,010 Do you think you could tell us a bit more about this, about how words can influence our understanding of nature as a personal experience? 114 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:15,700 I, I do not know my language and I'm not often proud of it, but I am aware that the other Papua New Guineans who can speak in that language very well. 115 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:24,460 But that does not mean that they know the names of all the trees in the language, different kinds of trees or birds or plants. 116 00:13:24,460 --> 00:13:31,120 That is one of the challenges of maintaining that is that we don't have enough Papua 117 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:38,110 New Guineans who will show an interest in documenting this diverse knowledge. 118 00:13:38,110 --> 00:13:49,870 And if we can encourage Papua New Guineans to document such important knowledge, have them have them in repositories for future reference. 119 00:13:49,870 --> 00:14:00,730 It might not seem important now, but it is very important in that this historical knowledge spending beyond hundreds of years, 120 00:14:00,730 --> 00:14:11,310 but they are also within those. Knowledge Day may contain links or clues to understanding current biodiversity. 121 00:14:11,310 --> 00:14:17,520 We have 800 languages or more in the country, and one of the factors that is, I think, 122 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:26,520 a two edged sword is that the current education system that we have in which English is taught is a major main language, 123 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,870 a mode of communication in in classrooms. 124 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:40,740 Just to give you a typical example, in a rural setting, you would have your kid going to class during the day to learn lessons in English, 125 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:50,670 and then it goes back in the afternoon to continue his way of life, maybe do his chores and chat with his parents in the local language. 126 00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:58,650 If he does that every year, that's eight hours a day in class and less hours at home. 127 00:14:58,650 --> 00:15:04,860 So he's missing, missing out on that entire exchange between himself and his parent. 128 00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:13,440 If he would work to a traditionally in the past, a company is father going hunting and learning from the father. 129 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:24,770 So there's a loss in language. And loss in knowledge associated with different ways of teaching over the years. 130 00:15:24,770 --> 00:15:30,470 Yeah. Overall, what are some of the challenges that conservationists face in Papua New Guinea? 131 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:40,010 There are a number of challenges. Papua New Guinea, it's quite a large island while it shares a border with Papua Indonesia. 132 00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:44,420 But Papua New Guinea alone, much of the area is the interior. 133 00:15:44,420 --> 00:15:54,020 There are no road networks. I guess this works to some advantage in terms of having some forest intact. 134 00:15:54,020 --> 00:16:04,850 But for conservationists, this means logistics become challenging and to go into these remote areas to do work, and the cost is quite high. 135 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:16,250 The other challenging aspect is that the many well, I should say, and that is the other aspect of it is. 136 00:16:16,250 --> 00:16:24,500 Having more of the right people become conservationist, having the kind of support that would. 137 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:35,590 Continue to keep them there. And one of the challenges we have seen, having worked with the NGO sector, is that sometimes. 138 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:43,450 In the donor world, there's support for projects, but not enough support to pay salaries for staff. 139 00:16:43,450 --> 00:16:49,950 And oftentimes, this can be one of the main factor in. 140 00:16:49,950 --> 00:16:57,260 Driving committed conservation is to work in other other sectors outside of. 141 00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:59,960 Conservation, and I just wanted to jump in as well, 142 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:05,960 because I think one thing you just said before is about the importance of having more conservationist, 143 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:13,940 and we have a question that we ask all our guests, which is, is there another conservationist that you found particularly inspiring? 144 00:17:13,940 --> 00:17:20,060 And if so, you know, who is that person and why do you find them inspiring? That's a very good question. 145 00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:22,910 Of course, there are many scientists abroad, 146 00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:30,380 but I often like to support local people who I know because we've experienced a lot of challenges in the country. 147 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:40,790 So one of the conservationists I found inspiring is a young female colleague who's working in the fresh water conservation field. 148 00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:45,440 This particular person that I'm referring to is Yolanda Omilabu. 149 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:53,320 She's got a small NGO called the Pico Biodiversity Network, working with communities. 150 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:59,040 Along the southern coast on freshwater turtles and. 151 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:06,540 I like the approach where she and the community work together helping. 152 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:11,830 Identify nesting sites of turtles and ensuring that. 153 00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:21,430 They are protected. But also, they integrated the learning of the turtles in their natural habitat. 154 00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:31,090 And the awareness of conservation into the local school curriculum for the different levels so that. 155 00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:41,950 It bridges the gap of what we talked about, about the loss of knowledge that the kids can still learn from their parents when they go back home, 156 00:18:41,950 --> 00:18:48,610 but they can see the connexion of the environment through the curriculum that they learnt in school. 157 00:18:48,610 --> 00:18:59,500 So I think that's an interesting and great approach of integrating science with less traditional knowledge from the communities. 158 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:05,170 I'm glad to know that there are such inspiring conservationists working in the Papua New Guinea context. 159 00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:10,960 Our last question is do you feel optimistic about the future of nature? 160 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:16,180 And if so, why? Or if not, why not? We should feel optimistic. 161 00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:23,650 I think being hopeful helps us to diversify ways of embracing our environment, 162 00:19:23,650 --> 00:19:32,290 but also seeking ways to safeguard the environment and protected in its essence, in which in this case, 163 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:39,220 I refer to nature in the holistic way not just plants and animals, 164 00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:46,390 but the people within their land slates, the culture, the traditional knowledge associated with it. 165 00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:51,350 If we, if we are not so hopeful, then we are left with nothing. 166 00:19:51,350 --> 00:20:00,870 So sometimes. We should be looking in having that hope in us to have something to look forward to. 167 00:20:00,870 --> 00:20:05,920 Otherwise, it's going to be a dreary world out there. 168 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:15,720 So I think I am very optimistic. I think this is what we should have, we should be having. 169 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:25,320 Confidence that. Whatever little effort we put in, it contributes to something positive. 170 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:30,840 It might not be quite obvious or we may not see the result in, say, five years, 171 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:42,960 but any incremental effort directed in a positive way should, in my view, contribute to something that is positive. 172 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:51,700 And reciprocal in nature and nature and the environment that we live in, that is such a lovely answer. 173 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:54,570 I'm I'm quite taken aback. 174 00:20:54,570 --> 00:21:01,680 That was such a great way of kind of bringing together all of these different threads from different parts of the interview. 175 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,090 I mean, I've learnt so much during our conversation. Thank you. 176 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:12,120 Yeah, thank you so much. It was it was really, really interesting hearing about all the different topics you've covered. 177 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:24,060 So yeah, thank you so much for answering all our questions. Thank you, Julia and Sophie, for having me. 178 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:31,080 While I really enjoy this conversation with Miriam today, I feel like we've covered so much ground and she made so many interesting points. 179 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,350 I definitely learnt a lot. It was a lot of food for thoughts. 180 00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:42,270 One thing that I thought was really interesting is how the identity is really tied in with the bird of paradise as well in the communities. 181 00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:49,500 And how there was this concept of what you're wearing in terms of like the species you might have on your headdress might have a specific meaning, 182 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:54,660 but also the more species you might have could be associated with black having a certain status 183 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:58,350 and how it was important to remind people that it wasn't necessarily the case and that, 184 00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:04,470 you know, you could as well just have less species and still have that that status and identity. 185 00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:10,500 But also, I love when she mentioned that kids could be named after certain species of Bird of Paradise, 186 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:17,850 and then it had that specific meaning associated with it. So I thought that was quite interesting when she mentioned these different points. 187 00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:26,340 Definitely. I loved all of that. I also thought it was so interesting how she talked about language and the way that language, 188 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:31,960 I mean, including names, could really influence our understanding of biodiversity. 189 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:39,660 And so the way that these traditional languages can really contain so much information about the natural world, which can then be lost. 190 00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:46,560 Yeah. And I think that's something that is so important at the moment because we're really seeing a lot of languages slowly disappearing. 191 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,060 And, you know, we often think of species becoming extinct, but actually languages have become extinct. 192 00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:58,080 And even just looking at, you know, my own country looking at France, we have certain languages that are less and less use nowadays, 193 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,370 like people in Brittany had their own language or in the Basque Country. 194 00:23:02,370 --> 00:23:06,720 And so I think there's so much power as well in preserving languages so that we keep 195 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,800 these these specific words and that knowledge because there's so much information in it. 196 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:11,850 Absolutely. 197 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:20,070 And I love the way that she talked kind of about the past and the future and the importance of maintaining that post and that cultural identity. 198 00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:24,690 And it sort of was exemplified in the way that she was talking about these headdresses, 199 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:33,510 like simultaneously preserving these old headdresses and looking after them and making sure that they stayed usable, 200 00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:37,440 but at the same time, thinking about how best to produce new ones. 201 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,780 Yeah. And I mean, of course, that that also ties in, you know, with with fast fashion what we're seeing here as well. 202 00:23:42,780 --> 00:23:49,440 Just thinking of this concept that we we've reached a point in the world where we think that we need to buy new things. 203 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,240 And again, that kind of show a certain status if you're able to just have a new outfit every day. 204 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,300 And actually how now we're reverting and saying like, look, we need to really considered slow fashion instead of that, 205 00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:05,400 that fast fashion trend and really wear and buy things that might be more long lasting. 206 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,980 So it's it's really thinking of that sustainability as well. 207 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:13,130 So it was interesting to hear that parallel with with the headdresses as well in Papua New Guinea. 208 00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:20,190 Mm, definitely. One of the points that she made that I really liked was around the really rich and deep 209 00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:25,020 knowledge that people have when they are interacting with these ecosystems all the time. 210 00:24:25,020 --> 00:24:31,140 And so she was talking about hunters and how they will be really aware of the distributions and habits of these buds. 211 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:40,140 It's also well-established in the marine context, so fishers will often be the people who know a lot about species where they are, how they're acting. 212 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:46,180 I mean, with my Ph.D. human made reefs, there were a lot of structures that only fishers knew about. 213 00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:53,530 And I think that quite often maybe these groups are seen as like the enemies of conservation in some way or, 214 00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:57,670 you know, because they are hunting or fishing these species, 215 00:24:57,670 --> 00:25:02,560 but actually they can be incredibly powerful allies because they have such a 216 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,820 deep understanding of the species that we're trying to conserve and protect. 217 00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:15,100 It's funny. I think we always have a thread throughout this second season of the podcast because we we touched on that with Dino, 218 00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:19,660 who told us about why it's so important to work with people who are in the agricultural sector. 219 00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:22,720 And then we touched on it again with Sophia, who was talking about, you know, 220 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,820 people trading birds and how they had so much knowledge because they were the one actually breeding the birds as well. 221 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:34,810 And I think it is just again like another reminder of how important it is to work with different stakeholders and how, you know, 222 00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:42,040 incorporating that knowledge is is so important because as scientists or as conservationists, we don't we don't know it all. 223 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,340 And you know, we need these people to really bring in, yeah, to bring in the information. 224 00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:58,720 Absolutely. Yes, I really just kind of considering the sustainable use and how to hold multiple goals and practises at the same time, 225 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:05,090 which I think the Marieme did such a beautiful way of describing and showing the way of how it's possible to do that. 226 00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:10,250 Yeah, and I think so important to remember, especially in conservation, when we work with, 227 00:26:10,250 --> 00:26:15,470 you know, so many different people around the globe altogether to to reach a common goal. 228 00:26:15,470 --> 00:26:21,590 I think it's so important sometimes to remember to think about other people's perspectives and the way this thing, 229 00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:27,020 because that is just an essential part. I think of doing conservation nowadays. 230 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:32,280 Completely. Well, that seems like a really good place to end, actually. 231 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,000 Amazing. Well, we hope you enjoyed this episode. 232 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,680 If you have any foods or reaction, 233 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:44,490 you can send us a voice note at podcast that conservation optimism dot org or reach us on Twitter at Conserv Optimism. 234 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:53,130 This episode was produced and edited by Julia Minear and myself, Sophia Castelo, to call our theme song was composed and produced by Matthew Kemp. 235 00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:55,860 This season of Good Nature was funded by Synchronicity F, 236 00:26:55,860 --> 00:27:15,984 the weekly Fund for Nature and the University of Oxford Department, or Public Engagement with Research Seed Fund.