Welcome to a good natured podcast where you can join us for uplifting chats that shine a light on conservation challenges.
We interview inspiring conservationists from lots of different backgrounds, and they all engage with conservation in their own ways.
Today, we're thrilled to have tree climbing instructor Tim Kova as a guest.
I'm Juliet and I'm Sophia. Today, you can expect to hear about trees, about inclusivity and about connecting with people and nature.
Hey, Sophia. Hey, Julia. Today, we're thrilled to be talking with Tim Kova and just to give you a bit more background.
Tim is a master tree climbing instructor, and he's been in that field for 30 years.
Tim has climbed trees large and small from his backyard to the remote jungles of the world.
His vision is to help connect people to each other and the natural world.
And to achieve that, you actually founded an organisation called Tree Climbing Planets,
and so they offer a lot of different tree climbing classes, workshops and adventure.
And they're really teaching people the technical aspect of climbing trees to explore our planet's rooftop.
Tim has worked extensively with Canopy researchers stationed all around the
world and also taught lots of people who had never climbed a tree to do so.
I can't wait to hear more about what Tim does and hearing about how people connect with trees.
So let's hear from Tim. Tim, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me. Good morning or good evening where you are out.
You've been a professional tree climbing instructor for 30 years now and you've introduced over 20000 people to the treetops.
How did tree climbing become so important to you? Well, as a child growing up in the 70s, I was probably most kids did growing up around trees.
We just climb trees, and I remember finding peace and solace up in the tree tops.
You know, I wasn't big into sports and all that. So I don't know.
I just I found my little happy place up in the top of the trees.
And then throughout all my early years and then even going into my teenage years, I was kind of a closet climber.
It wasn't real cool to climb trees at 15 years old, but, you know, found me on an afternoon.
I cried, be back in the woods somewhere climbing up in a tree with the book.
And then when I met Peter Jenkins, who was the founder of Three Climbers International, he also had a tree climbing business tree DR Business.
And at that time, I was a chef at a Jamaican restaurant and I was ready to get out of the restaurant world.
And when he started talking about the trees, it just ignited something inside of me that was kind of held back for a few years.
And then I realised what I can actually make a living, climbing trees. I can create a lifestyle of doing tree work.
And then later on it came into travelling the world and teaching other people how to climb trees.
And the boss, my boss at the time brought me in to help facilitate and work with the general public during that climb.
I noticed that there were these six year old children all the way up to these two ladies who were about 75 80 years old,
wide, wide demographic of folks climbing trees. And this was back in 1992 and.
At that moment, I realise everybody had the same connexion to connect with the trees and there was a tree that brought everybody together.
There's this different demographic of folks, people that normally would not be talking to each other.
We had these very conservative couple up in one car, the tree sitting next to this hippie chick, and they were having conversations.
And then we had these elderly grandmas up in the tree top talking next to this 15 year old punk rock kid with this big blue mohawk.
And they were getting along and having good conversations, and it was like a light bulb went on.
All of a sudden I saw all these people just sharing stories about climbing trees as children.
Some of them were still children,
and there was a bonding going on a bonding I hadn't seen anywhere else out there in the public where people normally wouldn't talk to each other.
But because of this tree climbing experience, it brought everybody together. It was pretty much at that moment where my life did a 180,
and I started getting out of doing tree work and started focussing more on what I consider
inspirational tree climbing because that became a hook to draw people back to nature
without us having to preach about protecting the trees and saving the trees and saving the
forest by giving people an actual place to have an experience to think for themselves,
to judge for themselves about being in the trees and being with nature.
So it's it's all about perspectives and and in your case, you know,
you do this very literally by helping people see things from a very different points.
How does this change in perspective affect people and how how does that make that connexion to nature potentially, like, evolve?
You know, there's so especially right now in this day and era, there's so much division happening out there in the world,
at least here in the US, and I'm sensing it around the whole planet that, you know, people or we're just not finding common ground anymore.
And I truly believe nature is one of those antidotes that can bring people back together.
And by giving them an experience, for example, being in the tree tops, climbing a tree where most people for.
You know, they're first time they've never climb a tree, technically with ropes and saddles.
So there's this bonding that goes on with each other with strangers.
And then there's also this reconnection back to the environment and back to nature by getting this different
perspective on life or this new perspective on life from this vantage point that we have while we're in the trees.
And so obviously, there are some huge conservation benefits from helping people to climb trees
and kind of change maybe their approach to the natural spaces around them.
But what are some of the conservation concerns around climbing trees, for example, impacts on tree health or things like that, right?
No, that's a huge, huge concern, especially climbing in the the old growth trees.
You know, some of these trees have been around for a couple of thousand years.
And when you get up until these really old growth, you know, giant sequoias, redwood trees, things like that, there is impact.
You know, I like to say that we leave no trace, but that's pretty much impossible.
So a lot of us do not advertise where these really big trees are, you know, in fact, most of the giant trees that I came across, I don't even climb.
I'll go to the base of them, pay some homage and some respect and hang out there.
But it has became a fear of mine that we do for, you know, kind of creating this Frankenstein,
so to speak, of trying to get people, you know, turned on to the trees and get into the treetops.
But at the same time, we've got to really watch our impact as we're going up.
So using safe techniques that do minimal damage to the trees is so key and so important.
It's like the coral reefs that are out there. You know, they just kind of got love to death with the snorkelers and scuba divers and people
that were novices going out there and not knowing how delicate of an ecosystem it is.
And that same thing can happen, especially in these old growth trees. Yeah, definitely worth thinking about.
I know that I've seen that be a concern underwater in terms of like people snorkelling,
and maybe they sort of do a think to a coral or something like that by mistake.
But I think that maybe people haven't quite come around to that same perspective on trees yet.
Correct. Yeah, and even, you know, the biggest hearted person up there for, you know, what we believe and they believe are righteous reasons.
You know, one little swift kick of the boot and there could go 500 years of just growth happening up there on these moss mats.
So the really big trees are really old trees with these beautiful moss mats happening up there.
Personally, I, you know,
I'll climb them with canopy researchers and go up there on research opportunities and help them gather samples and things like that.
But to take the general public into those trees or announce their locations, it's kind of like fishermen giving away their secret fishing holes.
You know, a lot of that stuff is kind of kept under wraps. Unfortunately, you know, the word is getting out for the internet and people,
you know, big tree hunters that are out there announcing where these trees are.
And then, you know,
climbers going out there that may not have the proper skills or the mindset because they're used to climbing trees in the backyard.
And when you climb into these old growth trees, you have to climb a little slower,
a little more methodical and be aware, be mindful that you know you're entering into someone else's home.
Yeah, that makes I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
And I was wondering as what I loved one thing that you mentioned earlier about, you know, having my kids and older people.
And so what kind of people do you actually get in your and your classes? Do you see quite a diversity of people?
And have you seen a change in demographic in recent times as well with like the pandemic and everything that's happened?
Yeah, we get a huge demographic of folks. I've worked with kids from five years old up to ninety two years old.
I had one friend that took a lady on a one hundred and first birthday up into the top of a tree,
and so she spent one hundred and first or 100th birthday. She jumped out of an aeroplane, so we didn't get that one.
We got one on one.
But the demographic change, too, that I've noticed over the years, especially being out here on the west coast of the US, out here in Oregon.
I'm getting a lot more females coming out and climbing and learning how to climb trees for inspirational purposes.
And the average student a couple of years ago was, you know,
50 year old female that was taking the courses and also work with a lot of canopy researchers teaching
them how to climb trees for a variety of reasons so they can get to their subjects during the pandemic.
Interesting enough, in 2020. I mean, the world kind of closed and shut down, so business wasn't really growing too much then.
But this past year, I got a lot of families that came out, you know, for some family bonding and with tree climbing,
it's the perfect social distancing activity, you know, because we're outside from number one.
And then as we're climbing into the tree tops, we've got a couple of metres between us as we're heading up into the trees.
And so you're going to have this bonding. But yes, also be respecting that social distancing and having this new experience.
That's really cool, and I feel as well, like we've we've talked about in previous episodes, but this idea that people, you know,
we were stuck in our house for so long that people were really keen on doing outdoorsy things as well, so I can imagine that people were quite keen.
I wanted to ask you a follow up question on what you mentioned when you said you were working with, you know,
researchers and conservation is, could you tell us a bit more about that side of what you do as well?
Sure. Yeah. I personally am not a scientist. You know, I work with and work and hang out with some of the top notch researchers on the planet.
Because of my profession of teaching people how to climb trees,
they bring me in to work with their students or they just hire me as a climber as well.
The last little job I had was working with Restoration Project, with a company called Joan Steen out of California,
where we were going up into the giant sequoias and collecting sequoia cones to get the seeds so they can propagate the seeds and help,
hopefully to reach forests.
Part of Sequoia National Park Because of the past couple of years, we've had a lot of drought and big fires coming through.
And I read somewhere just a few days ago that we lost 20 percent of the old growth the
giant Sequoia Forest trees that they thought were fire resistant just a few years ago.
But because of the drought and then all the understory on the ground, all the debris,
and it was like a big tinderbox that went up and burned through and just wiped out a lot of these giant sequoias.
So as part of this group that went out there to read, to go up into the treetops,
gather the cones and then bring the cones down and give them to Joan and and then they'll propagate them and get them plant to get them growing.
And then we'll go back out and replant them sometime next year.
Amazing. Those collaboration sounds very fruitful. I have a feeling that this next question is going to be very tough for you.
What is your favourite tree you've ever climbed? If you had to pick one, which tree made the biggest impact on you?
That's OK. Well, those are two different questions there. My favourite and the most.
The biggest impact. OK, we'll give you two. Yeah, the favourite tree is easy and super easy.
It's in my backyard. It's it's a beautiful Oregon white oak.
It's only about, oh, I don't know, 20 metres high or so.
It's my main training tree. This tree's name is pagoda. It's where I take all the students and where they learn how to climb.
It is, by far, I don't know for me, the most gentle tree.
It's got these beautiful, this beautiful architecture, these big arms, beefy arms to sit on pretty much anywhere you are in the tree.
And there's been many times I've gone back there just to go hang out with my friend.
So that's pretty my favourite tree to climb the one that has one of the most, the largest impacts, you know,
getting into some of those giant sequoias or those coastal redwoods trees that
have been around for a thousand two thousand up to three thousand years old.
It's humbling, very, very humbling experience me being up into those into that canopy and then another one kind of neck and neck with
the giant sequoias and the coastal redwoods would be down in the Amazon would do annual tree climbing expeditions.
Well, non-pandemic years we do,
and we get into the world's largest forest and climbing up into the Amazonian trees and then watching nature just come to life when you're up there.
Yeah. Breathtaking, life-changing.
And yeah, it's people, you know, we get up there and there's times where you just start weeping because of the beauty of it all.
Watching, you know, a flock of macaws fly underneath you and watching the the top of their wings, all the different colours of the wings shooting by.
It's kind of like watching little, you know, diamonds and prisms, just dancing in the lower canopy.
I mean, I love that image. That's just beautiful. And I remember having been to the Amazon myself,
just sometimes you almost feel frustrated when you on the ground because you can't see that much because there's so much like,
you know, vegetable coverage and you can hear the birds, but you can't see them.
And I can imagine how magical it must be when when you reach that point where
actually you can see everything and your perspective is completely different.
True, and especially from that perspective, because when you're on the ground watching the birds fly by the roar silhouetted up against the blue sky,
you know, so it's kind of hard to see the colours.
They're just these little black things and kind of tell by their shape and their silhouette of what kind of bird it is.
But when you're in the top of the tree and now you're looking down on the birds, that's when all those colours just start popping it.
Also reminds me that, you know, sleeping in the treetops, we do treetop camping, too,
we go up there and we'll take our specially designed hammocks called tree boats, anchor them in the top of the crown of a tree.
And then, you know, you're being lull to sleep with the night sounds going on.
Not always lull to sleep. Sometimes you're terrified because you have no idea what sounds those are in the Amazon walking through your tree.
But when you wake up in the morning to that symphony of birdsong or the sort where
the birds are singing above you below you next to you're in this vortex of,
you know, this the dawn awakening. Just magical moments.
Sounds absolutely incredible. I will point out, I was a little bit of cheating there in terms of the number of trees you ended up choosing,
but I'll let it go because your descriptions were very beautiful. Sorry.
Yes, give me talking about trees and we could be here for several hours.
So well, we'll let that one slide.
Well, so actually, it's really interesting because you mentioned lots of different tree species and different ecosystems as well.
And so, you know, having that that kind of wide experience at what makes you optimistic about the future of
conservation when you reflect on on these different trees and ecosystems that you've been in?
What makes me optimistic about this is where when I'm working with the general public I like, I said, I work with a lot of canopy researchers,
some documentary film crews, people like that where these people are aware of what's happening with the environment.
You know, there's, you know, climate change is real.
It's actually happening. I've seen it with my own eyes, but working with those folks, I'm kind of preaching to the choir.
What gets me kind of optimistic about it is that there could be this change in the tide is working with Joe public,
you know, getting their family out there into the forest, into the treetops, slow travel.
You know, we're not talking zip lines, we're not talking that we're moving through the trees quickly and all that.
Now this is about a place to reconnect.
And then after five, 10, 15 minutes of, you know, the clients sitting in the trees, something inside them shifts.
You know, it's what we call tree time. You know, they kind of tap into this, this other world where, you know, the human existence.
This doesn't really matter at this moment.
You know, all of our worldly problems stay on the ground and they do it most and say 90 percent of the folks feel this deeper connexion to nature,
even if their city folk. So that's where my hope comes in is that people get out there.
They have these experiences, they go back, they show the pictures, they talk about these stories being in the trees with their friends.
And now when they go back outside, they're actually looking up and looking at the trees.
And maybe for the first time in the past 50 years, trees are no longer things that just drop leaves and drop branches and how squirrels and birds,
you know, they get this connexion going on with the tree from having this type of true climbing experience.
It sounds like a really strong internal shift that can happen.
I don't know how you'd put that across in a picture. But yeah, pretty amazing.
Yeah, it's pretty. When you have photos trying to talk about it, it's almost impossible.
Photos are even hard, even VIDEO It's done. So people over have that hands on experience.
You know, when they get up there where something does shift and people always ask, Well, what do you do when you get up in the tree?
What do you do? What do you do? And that's it. You just sit.
You just sit there and people have usually have a hard time sitting still because we're such a fast paced society.
But something in the trees, people get up there, especially for the first, second, third climbs.
They don't want to move around. A lot of them get comfortable on one branch and there's a reflection going on.
Our last question is about other conservationists that you know so well that you have seen.
Do you think you could tell us about another conservationist you admire?
Probably one of my biggest heroes out there for conservation and making she's making a huge impact is Canopy Meg Laumann.
She was a pioneer in the Canopy Research back in the 70s.
She was doing a bunch of climbs down in Australia, and then she's moved to the Amazon and then throughout parts of Southeast Asia.
She's written several books. She's now more of a spokesperson for the trees and the discoveries that she's
found back in the day and working with kids with online citizen science projects.
I've also collaborated with her on a few projects in India, Mexico and here in the states, too.
We're getting physically challenged folks out of wheelchairs up into the treetops, too.
And so these canopy researchers, you know, are no longer limited to just being able bodied folks.
But even people that have spent their whole life in the chairs can now get up into the canopy and help do this research to find out
what's going on up there and hopefully be able to bring that back down to terra firma related to us and then we can move forward.
Those are some amazing examples, and it's just like the Lorax, I speak for the trees.
Yes, I believe it was. National Geographic actually coined that phrase to Canopy Meg that she is the modern day Lorax.
So, oh, that's awesome. I think that's a lovely place to and thank you so much, Tim.
I feel like you've answered all our questions so well. It was such a pleasure chatting with you.
Well, thank you. And, you know, even if you don't climb the tree, just go out there and sit with them.
You know, there's something magical happening.
And if anything, just get outside and breathe some fresh air and thank those woody creatures that are providing that fresh air for us.
That was such a great conversation with Tim. Yes, he made such good points in this conversation.
It was really enlightening. I loved what he was saying about tree time and the fact that people just get up there in the harnesses and then,
you know, all of the work is kind of guessing up there.
And so then you just sit there still and watch the world go by.
I really love that, and I thought I really resonated as well with the fast paced world we live in.
You know, it's always thinking about the next thing, what is the next project?
And when you finish something, then you always think about what's coming after that.
And so I love this idea of, you know, you just climb the tree, and that's actually what the journey is all about the climb.
And then you just reach there and sit there and take it all in and have to sit in that stillness.
I thought that was really interesting and his descriptions were just unbelievable.
So amazing. I mean, honestly, I felt like I was in the forest with him.
He he was so good at describing these different places.
I think one of the things that he described already well was the sort of three dimensional nature of the experience of climbing trees.
And it's something that I've seen people react pretty strongly to when underwater and that I
definitely reacted really strongly to because suddenly you can move up and down and left and right,
and maybe you have animals or fish above you or below you in a way that land were always kind of on one plane or two planes.
Yeah. And I felt it was also really interesting in the fact that you just see the world in a completely different way.
You know, that change of perspective, but also the fact that you like when you access the canopy, for example,
what he was saying with the birds, you suddenly see them, whereas before you might have just heard them,
but also that colours look completely different because instead of seeing them against the backdrop of the sky,
you suddenly see them actually in the trees or next to you, and the colours are completely different.
And there's so much more light up there when you were thinking about big trees in tropical forests, I think the amount of light can be very limiting.
And so it makes a really big difference to be further up and just be able to see things from that different perspective.
Yeah, I mean, I have to say tropical forests are like my favourite ecosystems.
So for me, this conversation was just delightful. Another thing that I thought was really interesting that he mentioned as well was the
fact that he said he sees so many different types of people coming to do the climbs.
And, you know, he was saying he was talking about this person celebrated a hundred or one birthday, which I felt was really fun.
It's accessible to everyone, which I find quite quite amazing.
And he was talking about this. But the process of learning something new, I think especially something technical,
is inherently a little bit vulnerable because everyone comes in sort of maybe not knowing what they about to do.
And so then starting to climb can maybe lead to these connexions and then also obviously being in these really gorgeous settings.
Yeah, it's an amazing way to connect people between each other because you kind of rely on each other.
I'm assuming as well when you're climbing, but also connecting them with the natural world.
There's just so many layers and it's it's amazing when we think of conservation or conservation, it's,
you know, we might be thinking about people who are doing field biology, for example, by thing.
Connecting people with nature in the way that Tim does is so powerful and it can really change the perception that people have of nature.
Yeah, definitely. It seems like people had sometimes some really strong changes in perspective, but I also love the fact that you said so.
We talked about the fact that it's inclusive, but you actually mentioned as well that they're getting people in wheelchairs, up tree.
And initially, when we started this interview, that was my thought. I was like, Oh, I'll try climbing.
It's great, but you know, it must be limited in terms of who can do it in terms of like the fitness you required.
But Tim was really clear that actually he he really has a range of of people doing it.
And I find it amazing that he is able to teach everyone to actually get up there and get get that experience.
Definitely. So just being able to share that experience across so many different people and backgrounds,
but then also being aware of some of the conservation concerns around this activity and how to do it carefully.
Yeah, that's so important,
and I love how he was super clear about the fact that as much as I'd love to say that they're not leaving any like traces are,
they're not having an impact. You know, it's realistically there is the possibility that you might and that that,
you know, you might put your foot in the wrong place and impact on the tree.
And so the fact that he really has that in his mind when he is taking people up there is what I think is so important.
Yeah, and training people in it, too.
So when he's sort of imparting that knowledge on how to climb the tree, I imagine he's also teaching people how to do it carefully.
And the connexion to coral reefs being sort of loved to death, I thought was really compelling as well because it is this sense of we love these
natural spaces and places and sometimes our presence in them can be damaging.
And so just really trying to be aware of that and manage it as much as possible, for sure.
But also another thing that I really, really loved in this episode is the fact that, you know,
we've talked about this before in previous episode about the fact that there's a plant disparity awareness.
Some people don't really pay attention to plants, but having someone who was that passionate about trees as well and I find trees amazing,
but very often we again, we forget them, you know, they become a bit background.
I thought that was really cool.
And so hearing about the person who inspired him as well and about how she was, this advocates for trees I thought was super interesting.
Definitely. And I loved the comparison to The Lorax as well. Yeah, that was that was great hearing that she had that term coined from Nat Geo.
I mean it. It's just inspiring to see every episode we hear about different people in different parts of the world.
And I just love that we, you know, we can never predict what a guest is going to say to this question.
So that's what I really love about it. Well, that seems like a really good place to end.
We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts or reactions, you can send us a voice note podcast,
conservation optimism, dot org or reach us on Twitter accounts of optimism.
This episode was produced and edited by Cynthia Castellaneta, Gail and myself,
Julia Minear, and our theme song was composed and produced by Matthew Camp.
Transcripts are available thanks to the help of Alexandra Davis.
And these seasons of good natured was funded by SYNCHRONISED to the weekly Fund for Nature
and the University of Oxford Departmental Public Engagement with Research Seed Fund.