1 00:00:14,010 --> 00:00:20,520 Welcome to a good natured podcast where you can join us for uplifting chats that shine a light on conservation challenges. 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:27,330 We interview inspiring conservationists from lots of different backgrounds, and they all engage with conservation in their own ways. 3 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:36,300 Today, we're thrilled to have tree climbing instructor Tim Kova as a guest. 4 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:47,270 I'm Juliet and I'm Sophia. Today, you can expect to hear about trees, about inclusivity and about connecting with people and nature. 5 00:00:47,270 --> 00:00:55,100 Hey, Sophia. Hey, Julia. Today, we're thrilled to be talking with Tim Kova and just to give you a bit more background. 6 00:00:55,100 --> 00:01:00,810 Tim is a master tree climbing instructor, and he's been in that field for 30 years. 7 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:05,790 Tim has climbed trees large and small from his backyard to the remote jungles of the world. 8 00:01:05,790 --> 00:01:10,790 His vision is to help connect people to each other and the natural world. 9 00:01:10,790 --> 00:01:15,410 And to achieve that, you actually founded an organisation called Tree Climbing Planets, 10 00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:19,850 and so they offer a lot of different tree climbing classes, workshops and adventure. 11 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:26,330 And they're really teaching people the technical aspect of climbing trees to explore our planet's rooftop. 12 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:30,170 Tim has worked extensively with Canopy researchers stationed all around the 13 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:35,810 world and also taught lots of people who had never climbed a tree to do so. 14 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:40,490 I can't wait to hear more about what Tim does and hearing about how people connect with trees. 15 00:01:40,490 --> 00:01:50,220 So let's hear from Tim. Tim, thank you so much for joining us today. 16 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:53,760 Thank you for having me. Good morning or good evening where you are out. 17 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:00,660 You've been a professional tree climbing instructor for 30 years now and you've introduced over 20000 people to the treetops. 18 00:02:00,660 --> 00:02:11,340 How did tree climbing become so important to you? Well, as a child growing up in the 70s, I was probably most kids did growing up around trees. 19 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:17,920 We just climb trees, and I remember finding peace and solace up in the tree tops. 20 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,810 You know, I wasn't big into sports and all that. So I don't know. 21 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:25,440 I just I found my little happy place up in the top of the trees. 22 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:33,810 And then throughout all my early years and then even going into my teenage years, I was kind of a closet climber. 23 00:02:33,810 --> 00:02:39,330 It wasn't real cool to climb trees at 15 years old, but, you know, found me on an afternoon. 24 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:43,590 I cried, be back in the woods somewhere climbing up in a tree with the book. 25 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:54,390 And then when I met Peter Jenkins, who was the founder of Three Climbers International, he also had a tree climbing business tree DR Business. 26 00:02:54,390 --> 00:03:00,310 And at that time, I was a chef at a Jamaican restaurant and I was ready to get out of the restaurant world. 27 00:03:00,310 --> 00:03:10,940 And when he started talking about the trees, it just ignited something inside of me that was kind of held back for a few years. 28 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:18,630 And then I realised what I can actually make a living, climbing trees. I can create a lifestyle of doing tree work. 29 00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:23,730 And then later on it came into travelling the world and teaching other people how to climb trees. 30 00:03:23,730 --> 00:03:31,680 And the boss, my boss at the time brought me in to help facilitate and work with the general public during that climb. 31 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:38,940 I noticed that there were these six year old children all the way up to these two ladies who were about 75 80 years old, 32 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:45,160 wide, wide demographic of folks climbing trees. And this was back in 1992 and. 33 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:53,980 At that moment, I realise everybody had the same connexion to connect with the trees and there was a tree that brought everybody together. 34 00:03:53,980 --> 00:03:59,140 There's this different demographic of folks, people that normally would not be talking to each other. 35 00:03:59,140 --> 00:04:08,110 We had these very conservative couple up in one car, the tree sitting next to this hippie chick, and they were having conversations. 36 00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:15,940 And then we had these elderly grandmas up in the tree top talking next to this 15 year old punk rock kid with this big blue mohawk. 37 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:21,610 And they were getting along and having good conversations, and it was like a light bulb went on. 38 00:04:21,610 --> 00:04:30,190 All of a sudden I saw all these people just sharing stories about climbing trees as children. 39 00:04:30,190 --> 00:04:32,800 Some of them were still children, 40 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:42,070 and there was a bonding going on a bonding I hadn't seen anywhere else out there in the public where people normally wouldn't talk to each other. 41 00:04:42,070 --> 00:04:49,510 But because of this tree climbing experience, it brought everybody together. It was pretty much at that moment where my life did a 180, 42 00:04:49,510 --> 00:04:55,060 and I started getting out of doing tree work and started focussing more on what I consider 43 00:04:55,060 --> 00:05:00,490 inspirational tree climbing because that became a hook to draw people back to nature 44 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:05,110 without us having to preach about protecting the trees and saving the trees and saving the 45 00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:11,980 forest by giving people an actual place to have an experience to think for themselves, 46 00:05:11,980 --> 00:05:16,660 to judge for themselves about being in the trees and being with nature. 47 00:05:16,660 --> 00:05:19,900 So it's it's all about perspectives and and in your case, you know, 48 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:24,430 you do this very literally by helping people see things from a very different points. 49 00:05:24,430 --> 00:05:32,140 How does this change in perspective affect people and how how does that make that connexion to nature potentially, like, evolve? 50 00:05:32,140 --> 00:05:40,300 You know, there's so especially right now in this day and era, there's so much division happening out there in the world, 51 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:48,970 at least here in the US, and I'm sensing it around the whole planet that, you know, people or we're just not finding common ground anymore. 52 00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:55,510 And I truly believe nature is one of those antidotes that can bring people back together. 53 00:05:55,510 --> 00:06:03,280 And by giving them an experience, for example, being in the tree tops, climbing a tree where most people for. 54 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,300 You know, they're first time they've never climb a tree, technically with ropes and saddles. 55 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:12,910 So there's this bonding that goes on with each other with strangers. 56 00:06:12,910 --> 00:06:20,110 And then there's also this reconnection back to the environment and back to nature by getting this different 57 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:28,300 perspective on life or this new perspective on life from this vantage point that we have while we're in the trees. 58 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:35,410 And so obviously, there are some huge conservation benefits from helping people to climb trees 59 00:06:35,410 --> 00:06:40,600 and kind of change maybe their approach to the natural spaces around them. 60 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:49,260 But what are some of the conservation concerns around climbing trees, for example, impacts on tree health or things like that, right? 61 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:55,210 No, that's a huge, huge concern, especially climbing in the the old growth trees. 62 00:06:55,210 --> 00:06:58,390 You know, some of these trees have been around for a couple of thousand years. 63 00:06:58,390 --> 00:07:06,330 And when you get up until these really old growth, you know, giant sequoias, redwood trees, things like that, there is impact. 64 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:10,930 You know, I like to say that we leave no trace, but that's pretty much impossible. 65 00:07:10,930 --> 00:07:20,270 So a lot of us do not advertise where these really big trees are, you know, in fact, most of the giant trees that I came across, I don't even climb. 66 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:24,790 I'll go to the base of them, pay some homage and some respect and hang out there. 67 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:31,120 But it has became a fear of mine that we do for, you know, kind of creating this Frankenstein, 68 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,580 so to speak, of trying to get people, you know, turned on to the trees and get into the treetops. 69 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:40,780 But at the same time, we've got to really watch our impact as we're going up. 70 00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:49,990 So using safe techniques that do minimal damage to the trees is so key and so important. 71 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:57,910 It's like the coral reefs that are out there. You know, they just kind of got love to death with the snorkelers and scuba divers and people 72 00:07:57,910 --> 00:08:03,670 that were novices going out there and not knowing how delicate of an ecosystem it is. 73 00:08:03,670 --> 00:08:08,950 And that same thing can happen, especially in these old growth trees. Yeah, definitely worth thinking about. 74 00:08:08,950 --> 00:08:13,540 I know that I've seen that be a concern underwater in terms of like people snorkelling, 75 00:08:13,540 --> 00:08:18,550 and maybe they sort of do a think to a coral or something like that by mistake. 76 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:23,850 But I think that maybe people haven't quite come around to that same perspective on trees yet. 77 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:32,280 Correct. Yeah, and even, you know, the biggest hearted person up there for, you know, what we believe and they believe are righteous reasons. 78 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:42,210 You know, one little swift kick of the boot and there could go 500 years of just growth happening up there on these moss mats. 79 00:08:42,210 --> 00:08:46,920 So the really big trees are really old trees with these beautiful moss mats happening up there. 80 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,060 Personally, I, you know, 81 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:54,600 I'll climb them with canopy researchers and go up there on research opportunities and help them gather samples and things like that. 82 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:03,420 But to take the general public into those trees or announce their locations, it's kind of like fishermen giving away their secret fishing holes. 83 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:10,900 You know, a lot of that stuff is kind of kept under wraps. Unfortunately, you know, the word is getting out for the internet and people, 84 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:14,370 you know, big tree hunters that are out there announcing where these trees are. 85 00:09:14,370 --> 00:09:16,050 And then, you know, 86 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:23,760 climbers going out there that may not have the proper skills or the mindset because they're used to climbing trees in the backyard. 87 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,510 And when you climb into these old growth trees, you have to climb a little slower, 88 00:09:27,510 --> 00:09:34,440 a little more methodical and be aware, be mindful that you know you're entering into someone else's home. 89 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,200 Yeah, that makes I mean, that makes a lot of sense. 90 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:42,570 And I was wondering as what I loved one thing that you mentioned earlier about, you know, having my kids and older people. 91 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:48,150 And so what kind of people do you actually get in your and your classes? Do you see quite a diversity of people? 92 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:54,300 And have you seen a change in demographic in recent times as well with like the pandemic and everything that's happened? 93 00:09:54,300 --> 00:10:01,950 Yeah, we get a huge demographic of folks. I've worked with kids from five years old up to ninety two years old. 94 00:10:01,950 --> 00:10:07,620 I had one friend that took a lady on a one hundred and first birthday up into the top of a tree, 95 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:13,320 and so she spent one hundred and first or 100th birthday. She jumped out of an aeroplane, so we didn't get that one. 96 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:14,280 We got one on one. 97 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:24,390 But the demographic change, too, that I've noticed over the years, especially being out here on the west coast of the US, out here in Oregon. 98 00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:32,460 I'm getting a lot more females coming out and climbing and learning how to climb trees for inspirational purposes. 99 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:35,910 And the average student a couple of years ago was, you know, 100 00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:43,170 50 year old female that was taking the courses and also work with a lot of canopy researchers teaching 101 00:10:43,170 --> 00:10:50,550 them how to climb trees for a variety of reasons so they can get to their subjects during the pandemic. 102 00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:59,190 Interesting enough, in 2020. I mean, the world kind of closed and shut down, so business wasn't really growing too much then. 103 00:10:59,190 --> 00:11:06,480 But this past year, I got a lot of families that came out, you know, for some family bonding and with tree climbing, 104 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:13,020 it's the perfect social distancing activity, you know, because we're outside from number one. 105 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:21,060 And then as we're climbing into the tree tops, we've got a couple of metres between us as we're heading up into the trees. 106 00:11:21,060 --> 00:11:29,000 And so you're going to have this bonding. But yes, also be respecting that social distancing and having this new experience. 107 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,950 That's really cool, and I feel as well, like we've we've talked about in previous episodes, but this idea that people, you know, 108 00:11:33,950 --> 00:11:41,630 we were stuck in our house for so long that people were really keen on doing outdoorsy things as well, so I can imagine that people were quite keen. 109 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:47,270 I wanted to ask you a follow up question on what you mentioned when you said you were working with, you know, 110 00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:51,440 researchers and conservation is, could you tell us a bit more about that side of what you do as well? 111 00:11:51,440 --> 00:12:00,890 Sure. Yeah. I personally am not a scientist. You know, I work with and work and hang out with some of the top notch researchers on the planet. 112 00:12:00,890 --> 00:12:04,070 Because of my profession of teaching people how to climb trees, 113 00:12:04,070 --> 00:12:11,990 they bring me in to work with their students or they just hire me as a climber as well. 114 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:21,920 The last little job I had was working with Restoration Project, with a company called Joan Steen out of California, 115 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:32,570 where we were going up into the giant sequoias and collecting sequoia cones to get the seeds so they can propagate the seeds and help, 116 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:34,700 hopefully to reach forests. 117 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:43,140 Part of Sequoia National Park Because of the past couple of years, we've had a lot of drought and big fires coming through. 118 00:12:43,140 --> 00:12:50,000 And I read somewhere just a few days ago that we lost 20 percent of the old growth the 119 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,930 giant Sequoia Forest trees that they thought were fire resistant just a few years ago. 120 00:12:56,930 --> 00:13:02,480 But because of the drought and then all the understory on the ground, all the debris, 121 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:09,120 and it was like a big tinderbox that went up and burned through and just wiped out a lot of these giant sequoias. 122 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:15,650 So as part of this group that went out there to read, to go up into the treetops, 123 00:13:15,650 --> 00:13:23,750 gather the cones and then bring the cones down and give them to Joan and and then they'll propagate them and get them plant to get them growing. 124 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:27,820 And then we'll go back out and replant them sometime next year. 125 00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:35,630 Amazing. Those collaboration sounds very fruitful. I have a feeling that this next question is going to be very tough for you. 126 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:41,150 What is your favourite tree you've ever climbed? If you had to pick one, which tree made the biggest impact on you? 127 00:13:41,150 --> 00:13:45,740 That's OK. Well, those are two different questions there. My favourite and the most. 128 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:51,410 The biggest impact. OK, we'll give you two. Yeah, the favourite tree is easy and super easy. 129 00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:55,550 It's in my backyard. It's it's a beautiful Oregon white oak. 130 00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:59,640 It's only about, oh, I don't know, 20 metres high or so. 131 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:07,400 It's my main training tree. This tree's name is pagoda. It's where I take all the students and where they learn how to climb. 132 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,870 It is, by far, I don't know for me, the most gentle tree. 133 00:14:11,870 --> 00:14:19,010 It's got these beautiful, this beautiful architecture, these big arms, beefy arms to sit on pretty much anywhere you are in the tree. 134 00:14:19,010 --> 00:14:24,140 And there's been many times I've gone back there just to go hang out with my friend. 135 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:32,660 So that's pretty my favourite tree to climb the one that has one of the most, the largest impacts, you know, 136 00:14:32,660 --> 00:14:36,560 getting into some of those giant sequoias or those coastal redwoods trees that 137 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:43,130 have been around for a thousand two thousand up to three thousand years old. 138 00:14:43,130 --> 00:14:51,500 It's humbling, very, very humbling experience me being up into those into that canopy and then another one kind of neck and neck with 139 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:59,270 the giant sequoias and the coastal redwoods would be down in the Amazon would do annual tree climbing expeditions. 140 00:14:59,270 --> 00:15:01,970 Well, non-pandemic years we do, 141 00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:13,760 and we get into the world's largest forest and climbing up into the Amazonian trees and then watching nature just come to life when you're up there. 142 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,030 Yeah. Breathtaking, life-changing. 143 00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:22,640 And yeah, it's people, you know, we get up there and there's times where you just start weeping because of the beauty of it all. 144 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:33,410 Watching, you know, a flock of macaws fly underneath you and watching the the top of their wings, all the different colours of the wings shooting by. 145 00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:39,890 It's kind of like watching little, you know, diamonds and prisms, just dancing in the lower canopy. 146 00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:44,540 I mean, I love that image. That's just beautiful. And I remember having been to the Amazon myself, 147 00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:51,170 just sometimes you almost feel frustrated when you on the ground because you can't see that much because there's so much like, 148 00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:55,010 you know, vegetable coverage and you can hear the birds, but you can't see them. 149 00:15:55,010 --> 00:15:58,190 And I can imagine how magical it must be when when you reach that point where 150 00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:02,690 actually you can see everything and your perspective is completely different. 151 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:11,900 True, and especially from that perspective, because when you're on the ground watching the birds fly by the roar silhouetted up against the blue sky, 152 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:13,790 you know, so it's kind of hard to see the colours. 153 00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:19,490 They're just these little black things and kind of tell by their shape and their silhouette of what kind of bird it is. 154 00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:28,460 But when you're in the top of the tree and now you're looking down on the birds, that's when all those colours just start popping it. 155 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:32,120 Also reminds me that, you know, sleeping in the treetops, we do treetop camping, too, 156 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:39,800 we go up there and we'll take our specially designed hammocks called tree boats, anchor them in the top of the crown of a tree. 157 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,270 And then, you know, you're being lull to sleep with the night sounds going on. 158 00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:51,080 Not always lull to sleep. Sometimes you're terrified because you have no idea what sounds those are in the Amazon walking through your tree. 159 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,520 But when you wake up in the morning to that symphony of birdsong or the sort where 160 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:02,660 the birds are singing above you below you next to you're in this vortex of, 161 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:07,840 you know, this the dawn awakening. Just magical moments. 162 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:15,190 Sounds absolutely incredible. I will point out, I was a little bit of cheating there in terms of the number of trees you ended up choosing, 163 00:17:15,190 --> 00:17:19,340 but I'll let it go because your descriptions were very beautiful. Sorry. 164 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:23,720 Yes, give me talking about trees and we could be here for several hours. 165 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,480 So well, we'll let that one slide. 166 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,370 Well, so actually, it's really interesting because you mentioned lots of different tree species and different ecosystems as well. 167 00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:39,280 And so, you know, having that that kind of wide experience at what makes you optimistic about the future of 168 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,470 conservation when you reflect on on these different trees and ecosystems that you've been in? 169 00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:52,660 What makes me optimistic about this is where when I'm working with the general public I like, I said, I work with a lot of canopy researchers, 170 00:17:52,660 --> 00:17:58,480 some documentary film crews, people like that where these people are aware of what's happening with the environment. 171 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,140 You know, there's, you know, climate change is real. 172 00:18:02,140 --> 00:18:08,830 It's actually happening. I've seen it with my own eyes, but working with those folks, I'm kind of preaching to the choir. 173 00:18:08,830 --> 00:18:15,790 What gets me kind of optimistic about it is that there could be this change in the tide is working with Joe public, 174 00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:22,960 you know, getting their family out there into the forest, into the treetops, slow travel. 175 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,160 You know, we're not talking zip lines, we're not talking that we're moving through the trees quickly and all that. 176 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,030 Now this is about a place to reconnect. 177 00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:39,190 And then after five, 10, 15 minutes of, you know, the clients sitting in the trees, something inside them shifts. 178 00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:48,100 You know, it's what we call tree time. You know, they kind of tap into this, this other world where, you know, the human existence. 179 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:50,140 This doesn't really matter at this moment. 180 00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:59,050 You know, all of our worldly problems stay on the ground and they do it most and say 90 percent of the folks feel this deeper connexion to nature, 181 00:18:59,050 --> 00:19:04,450 even if their city folk. So that's where my hope comes in is that people get out there. 182 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:12,370 They have these experiences, they go back, they show the pictures, they talk about these stories being in the trees with their friends. 183 00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:18,190 And now when they go back outside, they're actually looking up and looking at the trees. 184 00:19:18,190 --> 00:19:28,750 And maybe for the first time in the past 50 years, trees are no longer things that just drop leaves and drop branches and how squirrels and birds, 185 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:35,960 you know, they get this connexion going on with the tree from having this type of true climbing experience. 186 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,890 It sounds like a really strong internal shift that can happen. 187 00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:44,450 I don't know how you'd put that across in a picture. But yeah, pretty amazing. 188 00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:49,460 Yeah, it's pretty. When you have photos trying to talk about it, it's almost impossible. 189 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:54,620 Photos are even hard, even VIDEO It's done. So people over have that hands on experience. 190 00:19:54,620 --> 00:20:00,290 You know, when they get up there where something does shift and people always ask, Well, what do you do when you get up in the tree? 191 00:20:00,290 --> 00:20:03,740 What do you do? What do you do? And that's it. You just sit. 192 00:20:03,740 --> 00:20:10,610 You just sit there and people have usually have a hard time sitting still because we're such a fast paced society. 193 00:20:10,610 --> 00:20:16,400 But something in the trees, people get up there, especially for the first, second, third climbs. 194 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:22,280 They don't want to move around. A lot of them get comfortable on one branch and there's a reflection going on. 195 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:31,040 Our last question is about other conservationists that you know so well that you have seen. 196 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,550 Do you think you could tell us about another conservationist you admire? 197 00:20:34,550 --> 00:20:43,850 Probably one of my biggest heroes out there for conservation and making she's making a huge impact is Canopy Meg Laumann. 198 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:49,310 She was a pioneer in the Canopy Research back in the 70s. 199 00:20:49,310 --> 00:20:58,580 She was doing a bunch of climbs down in Australia, and then she's moved to the Amazon and then throughout parts of Southeast Asia. 200 00:20:58,580 --> 00:21:04,190 She's written several books. She's now more of a spokesperson for the trees and the discoveries that she's 201 00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:10,880 found back in the day and working with kids with online citizen science projects. 202 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:17,810 I've also collaborated with her on a few projects in India, Mexico and here in the states, too. 203 00:21:17,810 --> 00:21:23,510 We're getting physically challenged folks out of wheelchairs up into the treetops, too. 204 00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:32,540 And so these canopy researchers, you know, are no longer limited to just being able bodied folks. 205 00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:40,610 But even people that have spent their whole life in the chairs can now get up into the canopy and help do this research to find out 206 00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:49,950 what's going on up there and hopefully be able to bring that back down to terra firma related to us and then we can move forward. 207 00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:55,470 Those are some amazing examples, and it's just like the Lorax, I speak for the trees. 208 00:21:55,470 --> 00:22:03,680 Yes, I believe it was. National Geographic actually coined that phrase to Canopy Meg that she is the modern day Lorax. 209 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:09,330 So, oh, that's awesome. I think that's a lovely place to and thank you so much, Tim. 210 00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:14,130 I feel like you've answered all our questions so well. It was such a pleasure chatting with you. 211 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:18,600 Well, thank you. And, you know, even if you don't climb the tree, just go out there and sit with them. 212 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,090 You know, there's something magical happening. 213 00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:33,600 And if anything, just get outside and breathe some fresh air and thank those woody creatures that are providing that fresh air for us. 214 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,210 That was such a great conversation with Tim. Yes, he made such good points in this conversation. 215 00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:47,490 It was really enlightening. I loved what he was saying about tree time and the fact that people just get up there in the harnesses and then, 216 00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:51,210 you know, all of the work is kind of guessing up there. 217 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:55,530 And so then you just sit there still and watch the world go by. 218 00:22:55,530 --> 00:23:00,400 I really love that, and I thought I really resonated as well with the fast paced world we live in. 219 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,450 You know, it's always thinking about the next thing, what is the next project? 220 00:23:03,450 --> 00:23:07,770 And when you finish something, then you always think about what's coming after that. 221 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:13,230 And so I love this idea of, you know, you just climb the tree, and that's actually what the journey is all about the climb. 222 00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:18,420 And then you just reach there and sit there and take it all in and have to sit in that stillness. 223 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:23,670 I thought that was really interesting and his descriptions were just unbelievable. 224 00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:27,900 So amazing. I mean, honestly, I felt like I was in the forest with him. 225 00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:31,470 He he was so good at describing these different places. 226 00:23:31,470 --> 00:23:38,970 I think one of the things that he described already well was the sort of three dimensional nature of the experience of climbing trees. 227 00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:44,040 And it's something that I've seen people react pretty strongly to when underwater and that I 228 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:49,470 definitely reacted really strongly to because suddenly you can move up and down and left and right, 229 00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:58,830 and maybe you have animals or fish above you or below you in a way that land were always kind of on one plane or two planes. 230 00:23:58,830 --> 00:24:03,840 Yeah. And I felt it was also really interesting in the fact that you just see the world in a completely different way. 231 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,970 You know, that change of perspective, but also the fact that you like when you access the canopy, for example, 232 00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:13,860 what he was saying with the birds, you suddenly see them, whereas before you might have just heard them, 233 00:24:13,860 --> 00:24:19,230 but also that colours look completely different because instead of seeing them against the backdrop of the sky, 234 00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:24,700 you suddenly see them actually in the trees or next to you, and the colours are completely different. 235 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:34,030 And there's so much more light up there when you were thinking about big trees in tropical forests, I think the amount of light can be very limiting. 236 00:24:34,030 --> 00:24:41,260 And so it makes a really big difference to be further up and just be able to see things from that different perspective. 237 00:24:41,260 --> 00:24:45,170 Yeah, I mean, I have to say tropical forests are like my favourite ecosystems. 238 00:24:45,170 --> 00:24:52,480 So for me, this conversation was just delightful. Another thing that I thought was really interesting that he mentioned as well was the 239 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,550 fact that he said he sees so many different types of people coming to do the climbs. 240 00:24:57,550 --> 00:25:04,390 And, you know, he was saying he was talking about this person celebrated a hundred or one birthday, which I felt was really fun. 241 00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:08,410 It's accessible to everyone, which I find quite quite amazing. 242 00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:14,170 And he was talking about this. But the process of learning something new, I think especially something technical, 243 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:21,880 is inherently a little bit vulnerable because everyone comes in sort of maybe not knowing what they about to do. 244 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:30,280 And so then starting to climb can maybe lead to these connexions and then also obviously being in these really gorgeous settings. 245 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,900 Yeah, it's an amazing way to connect people between each other because you kind of rely on each other. 246 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:39,100 I'm assuming as well when you're climbing, but also connecting them with the natural world. 247 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:44,140 There's just so many layers and it's it's amazing when we think of conservation or conservation, it's, 248 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:48,400 you know, we might be thinking about people who are doing field biology, for example, by thing. 249 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:56,230 Connecting people with nature in the way that Tim does is so powerful and it can really change the perception that people have of nature. 250 00:25:56,230 --> 00:26:04,510 Yeah, definitely. It seems like people had sometimes some really strong changes in perspective, but I also love the fact that you said so. 251 00:26:04,510 --> 00:26:10,450 We talked about the fact that it's inclusive, but you actually mentioned as well that they're getting people in wheelchairs, up tree. 252 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:14,590 And initially, when we started this interview, that was my thought. I was like, Oh, I'll try climbing. 253 00:26:14,590 --> 00:26:20,020 It's great, but you know, it must be limited in terms of who can do it in terms of like the fitness you required. 254 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:24,850 But Tim was really clear that actually he he really has a range of of people doing it. 255 00:26:24,850 --> 00:26:32,050 And I find it amazing that he is able to teach everyone to actually get up there and get get that experience. 256 00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:39,340 Definitely. So just being able to share that experience across so many different people and backgrounds, 257 00:26:39,340 --> 00:26:46,230 but then also being aware of some of the conservation concerns around this activity and how to do it carefully. 258 00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:47,130 Yeah, that's so important, 259 00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:55,680 and I love how he was super clear about the fact that as much as I'd love to say that they're not leaving any like traces are, 260 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,140 they're not having an impact. You know, it's realistically there is the possibility that you might and that that, 261 00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:05,340 you know, you might put your foot in the wrong place and impact on the tree. 262 00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:12,100 And so the fact that he really has that in his mind when he is taking people up there is what I think is so important. 263 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:14,260 Yeah, and training people in it, too. 264 00:27:14,260 --> 00:27:20,880 So when he's sort of imparting that knowledge on how to climb the tree, I imagine he's also teaching people how to do it carefully. 265 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:28,920 And the connexion to coral reefs being sort of loved to death, I thought was really compelling as well because it is this sense of we love these 266 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:35,640 natural spaces and places and sometimes our presence in them can be damaging. 267 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:41,070 And so just really trying to be aware of that and manage it as much as possible, for sure. 268 00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:45,330 But also another thing that I really, really loved in this episode is the fact that, you know, 269 00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:50,520 we've talked about this before in previous episode about the fact that there's a plant disparity awareness. 270 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:57,330 Some people don't really pay attention to plants, but having someone who was that passionate about trees as well and I find trees amazing, 271 00:27:57,330 --> 00:28:01,350 but very often we again, we forget them, you know, they become a bit background. 272 00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:02,430 I thought that was really cool. 273 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:10,380 And so hearing about the person who inspired him as well and about how she was, this advocates for trees I thought was super interesting. 274 00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:19,050 Definitely. And I loved the comparison to The Lorax as well. Yeah, that was that was great hearing that she had that term coined from Nat Geo. 275 00:28:19,050 --> 00:28:25,440 I mean it. It's just inspiring to see every episode we hear about different people in different parts of the world. 276 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:31,600 And I just love that we, you know, we can never predict what a guest is going to say to this question. 277 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,970 So that's what I really love about it. Well, that seems like a really good place to end. 278 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:45,180 We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts or reactions, you can send us a voice note podcast, 279 00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:50,160 conservation optimism, dot org or reach us on Twitter accounts of optimism. 280 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,330 This episode was produced and edited by Cynthia Castellaneta, Gail and myself, 281 00:28:54,330 --> 00:28:59,190 Julia Minear, and our theme song was composed and produced by Matthew Camp. 282 00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:03,840 Transcripts are available thanks to the help of Alexandra Davis. 283 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,010 And these seasons of good natured was funded by SYNCHRONISED to the weekly Fund for Nature 284 00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:21,168 and the University of Oxford Departmental Public Engagement with Research Seed Fund.